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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2005fearful mother-to-be
Hello. I got into this extreme situation trying to save kittens from being aborted. A person I know was going to have a near-wild pregnant cat spayed and aborted, but I persuaded him to give the cat to me until six weeks after the litter is born, when I will give the mother back to him to have it spayed and then return her to his home and to the company of other near-wild cats that have already been neutered. I will keep the kittens and try to find homes for them. Any that I don't find homes for, I will have neutered when they are six months old. I have four other cats, all neutered. That's the plan, but the mother-to-be, named Blackie, has been in the bedroom where I'm keeping her at least until I get my garage cleaned out, for six hours now, and all she has done is hide under the furniture. I prepared a place in a closet for her hopefully to have her kittens in, but she went there only once, when we released her from the carrying cage at the door of the closet. I expected the cat to be very afraid, never having been in captivity before, not even in a carrying box. I was aware from the start that this is an extreme thing to do to the cat, but the helpless unwanted kittens have no advocate but me, and I'm trying to do everything I can to save them. Any advice? Or any guesses about how long before the cat will come out of hiding and eat and drink and maybe use the litter box? The cat is under a cedar chest, with plenty of room. At first she squeezed under other pieces of furniture, but I removed the lower drawers, exposing her, so now the available hiding places are more roomy; under the chest, under the bed, and in the closet. At this point I don't know whether my efforts will succeed, and save the kittens, or end in tragedy. -cr > I will keep the kittens and try to find >homes for them. Any that I don't find homes for, I will have >neutered when they are six months old. I have four other cats, >all neutered. Do it earlier and place them. 2# +. >That's the plan, but the mother-to-be, named Blackie, has been in >the bedroom where I'm keeping her at least until I get my garage [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >At this point I don't know whether my efforts will succeed, and save >the kittens, or end in tragedy. Personally, I'd abort the kittens and spay her, per vet recommendations.  SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album (when I said I would neuter kittens at 6 months if not adopted) > Do it earlier and place them. 2# +. A vet told me once that he did not recommend neutering cats before six months, because the pain medication could cause problems in younger cats. ("pain medication" is my phrase- I don't remember the phrase he used) I'm aware that there are differing opinions about when neutering should be done. What do you mean by "2#+"? > Personally, I'd abort the kittens and spay her, per vet > recommendations. I'm not aware of any vet recommendations in this case. But thoughts about what life is worth saving are not limited to medical minds. -cr >What do you mean by "2#+"? Animal shelters routinely spay/neuter kittens as long as they are over 2#. >> Personally, I'd abort the kittens and spay her, per vet >> recommendations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >-cr absolutely true. With millions of perfectly nice and non feral cats needing homes, bringing more little lives into the world doesn't make sense to ME. If it does to you, have at it. I wish you luck. S/N before 6 months, if you choose to have the kittens be born, is very possible and very safe, and a reasonable thing to do - you can place s/n kittens and not have to worry about their future reproduction. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album Please tell me what "2#" means. Just a translation is what I'm asking. -cr > Please tell me what "2#" means. Just a translation is what I'm > asking. > > -cr Two pounds in weight, or 0.9071848 kilograms. Hugs, CatNipped > Please tell me what "2#" means. Just a translation is what I'm > asking. > > -cr The # on your phone is known as the "pound button". Therefore, logic stands to reasong that 2#+ means "two pounds or more". Also, in mathmatical areas, # does mean Pounds, x or * means times, / means divide, +, -, and = all mean exactly what they mean (plus, minus and equal respectively). > > Please tell me what "2#" means. Just a translation is what I'm > > asking. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > # does mean Pounds, x or * means times, / means divide, +, -, and = all mean > exactly what they mean (plus, minus and equal respectively). It's known as the hash key round here.... >Please tell me what "2#" means. Just a translation is what I'm >asking. > >-cr I'm pulling for those kittens with you, Calvin. Don't let these dames dissuade you with their rational arguments. Once the kittens are born, they will swing into gear. You will get all the support you want. Charlie > I'm pulling for those kittens with you, Calvin. Don't let these dames > dissuade you with their rational arguments. I re-read all of your posts, with my paranoia fully activated, and yes it is clear that you were rolling on the floor guffawing at how I was lapping it up. But my naive romanticism is not even dented. I'm more determined than ever to see these kittens born, and I definitely will post a bunch of kitten pics dedicated especially to you. -cr > > I'm pulling for those kittens with you, Calvin. Don't let these dames > > dissuade you with their rational arguments. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than ever to see these kittens born, and I definitely will post a > bunch of kitten pics dedicated especially to you. Charlie genuinely cares about cats. He was just making some double entendres in reference to a recent situation on this newsgroup. He's really a pretty nice guy and he likes seeing kitty pictures so I'm sure he was sincere about you putting up a website. I seriously doubt if he was laughing at you. He has saved some cats himself. Candace >> > I'm pulling for those kittens with you, Calvin. Don't let these dames >> > dissuade you with their rational arguments. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I seriously doubt if he was laughing at you. He has saved some cats >himself. Thank you Candace! How indeed can I laugh at anyone after the saga of the bathroom cat? It happened just this spring and was part of what got me into this group. I trapped a cat thinking it was pregnant. I was going to do what Calvin plans to do. BUT, I trapped the wrong cat -- the meanest all-feral Tom around, a snarling beast who escaped in my bathroom and was there for weeks while it slowly dawned on me that this was not an expectant mama. The bathroom cat is neutered now, and he is slinking around the neighborhood. He HATES me. But he eats the food I put out for him. Charlie >> I'm pulling for those kittens with you, Calvin. Don't let these dames >> dissuade you with their rational arguments. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >than ever to see these kittens born, and I definitely will post a >bunch of kitten pics dedicated especially to you. That is what matters. Charlie > With millions of perfectly nice and non feral cats needing homes, > bringing more little lives into the world doesn't make > sense to ME. If it does to you, have at it. I wish you luck. I'm not bringing more little lives into the world. I've had all of my cats neuitered before they could reproduce. The mother and father brought these little lives into the world. They're in the world now, in their mother's womb. If I hadn't been told about these little lives, I wouldn't have become involved, but once I was told that their lives were about to be taken, I had no choice but to try to rescue them. -cr "Calvin Rice" <oscwr@netscape.net> wrote> > I'm not bringing more little lives into the world. I've had all of my > cats neuitered before they could reproduce. The mother and father [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr Well, sounds like your mind is made up. I hope you are prepared to be scratched and bitten, dealing with the feral mother. Please contact a group in your area that works with ferals. Try alleycatallies.org for help. Seriously, if you don't know what you are doing, all you are going to end up with is 4-6 feral kittens that will be impossible to place. -Kelly Kelly wrote: > Seriously, if you don't know what you are doing, all you are > going to end up with is 4-6 feral kittens that will be impossible > to place. I don't understand why you say the kittens will be feral, since they will be born indoors if they are born, and will not go outdoors until after the mother is taken away, after six weeks or so. I fully understand that the kittens would be feral if born in the wild. -cr My mind isn't made up, but I'm melodramatic enough to recognize that these tiny living things have no one but me to work on their behalf, and see them chasing each other around, sleeping on top of each other, and evolving into personality-rich beings like the other cats I know. If I don't help them, they vanish in darkness, almost getting help, but then losing it. >I don't understand why you say the kittens will be feral, since they >will >be born indoors if they are born, and will not go outdoors until after >the mother is taken away, after six weeks or so. I fully understand >that >the kittens would be feral if born in the wild. Why are you planning on taking mom away at 6 weeks and allowing them outside? SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album > Why are you planning on taking mom away at 6 weeks and > allowing them outside? Neither one of those things is necessary. The mother of the person who delivered Blackie to me, hates to be parted from her. She feeds her, though she can'r pet her. Blackie rubs around her legs like any other cat about to be fed, but then wont allow more contact. I'm sure the lady would accept a longer parting period if that would be better.. I've acquired two six (or less) week old kittens in the past six years. In both cases the kitten had already been separated from the mother. Both kittens adapted well to my care immediately. I'm aware of the big commitment required when adopting a kitten, holding it most of the time while doing other things, being especially careful and loving with it. Because of my experiences, I assumed that six weeks was proper for separation from the mother. But I'm open for better advice on this. It's not necessary that six week old kittens go outside. My other cats are indoor-outdoor, so i just assumed that these kittens would become the same, until placement, but again I'm open to better advice. -cr >> Why are you planning on taking mom away at 6 weeks and >> allowing them outside? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > more contact. I'm sure the lady would accept a longer parting > period if that would be better.. Hi Calvin. I totally understand where you're coming from here! (with the expectant mom, the close arrival of lil wons!) It is better for the kittens to be with mom until at least 12 weeks old. Mom teaches them how "to be cats", how to litter train them, that people are ok, how to eat solid food, etc. In this case, mom doesn't know some of these things, from the sounds of it. If you plan to let the mom give birth, which it sounds like what you plan to do, I'm mixed on whether mom should influence the little ones WRT human touch, litter box experience. Maybe in this case it would be better to send her back. Do you have any other cats? Any that might "adopt" the kittens and show them these things? It comes better to them from another cat. Copy-cat and all that. :) My 2 year old male took my latest additions under his wing when they were about 3 months old. I used to call him Mr. Mom. > It's not necessary that six week old kittens go outside. My > other cats are indoor-outdoor, so i just assumed that these > kittens would become the same, until placement, but again I'm > open to better advice. I wouldn't let them be outside cats. At least not at 6 weeks old. You will have to try to contain them if your cats are indoor/outdoor. That little is way too young for them to be able to stay out of trouble out there. Of course it depends on what your neighborhood/city is like. Good luck with whatever you do. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields 6 weeks to eight weeks i bread cats andtheats when we let them go, unless the mother is not ready or the kittens need more training > >> Why are you planning on taking mom away at 6 weeks and > >> allowing them outside? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > breath." > - W.C. Fields >6 weeks to eight weeks i bread cats andtheats when we let them go, unless > the mother is not ready or the kittens need more training You bread cats? Do you dip them in egg batter first? Sorry, couldn't resist. 6-8 weeks is NOT good, IM(not so) HO. I foster kittens for a shelter. Little bit of a head's up, if you are a breeder, you won't be very welcome on this group. -Kelly >>6 weeks to eight weeks i bread cats andtheats when we let them go, unless >> the mother is not ready or the kittens need more training [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Kelly I honestly wonder how many of her cats are abandoned or given away because of "bad habits" due to missing out on alot of their education from their mother. Grace > I don't understand why you say the kittens will be feral, since they > will [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the other cats I know. If I don't help them, they vanish in darkness, > almost getting help, but then losing it. Because if the mother is feral, she may not let you near the kittens for at least 4-5 weeks. By then, they will already be on the skittish side and will need intense hands-on in order to become accustomed to people. Please don't let them outside. You may never see them again. They need to be in a small room and handled as much as possible. I think you are romanticizing a bit here. -Kelly >> I don't understand why you say the kittens will be feral, since they >> will [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >-Kelly One of my cats is the daughter of a feral mother. I found her hidden in a patch of poison ivy under a dumpster when she was probably around 7 weeks old. She has been raised indoors only with my other cats, seems to be particularly sensitive and runs from all humans unless she knows them very, very well. She's now 11 years old and still spends a lot of time under the bed if there's sudden noises, footsteps or voices. I suspect that some behavior develops in feral lines that may or not be genetic; consider that feral lines have succeeded in reproducing because of genetic traits that render them distrustful of humans. Just my own theory, but so it goes... SignatureDitty "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." (anonymous) http://www.dearauntnettie.com http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum http://www.dearauntnettie.com/gallery >My mind isn't made up, but I'm melodramatic enough to recognize >that these tiny living things have no one but me to work on their >behalf, and see them chasing each other around, sleeping on >top of each other, and evolving into personality-rich beings like >the other cats I know. If I don't help them, they vanish in darkness, >almost getting help, but then losing it. Of course. At this point, you have committed a lot of thought to this and you have decided you care about this litter of kittens. It doesn't matter why or whether it makes sense to anyone else. You want to do this project, it's prefectly legal, and you are prepared to accept responsibility. That's the recognized standard of adulthood. The cat-lady standard fluctuates all over the map. It is largely a catamenial function. Charlie ...> Well, sounds like your mind is made up. I hope you are prepared to be > scratched and bitten, dealing with the feral mother. Please contact a > group in your area that works with ferals. Try alleycatallies.org for > help. Seriously, if you don't know what you are doing, all you are going > to end up with is 4-6 feral kittens that will be impossible to place. > > -Kelly I think it calls for caution, but the mother cat may come around better than expected. People tend to call any homeless cat feral, when it is not really as wild as it may appear. And kittens can come around remarkably fast. Kevin, do take Snittens' advice to contact a rescue group for advice. You can learn a lot from them. And as long as you are willing to take responsibility for the care of these cats, the group may be able to help you find homes for them. It is not unusual for the mother cat to hide out at first. In fact, it is to be expected. Don't push her too much. Especially, don't try to touch her until she and you have an opportunity to evaluate each other and she indicates she is ready. You do want to avoid injury. Feed her kitten food, because she needs the extra nourishment. Feed her on a schedule. She will learn to associate you with food and will look forward to seeing you. The first couple of days, bring in the food and leave it there. Make a special greeting noise or expression when you come into the room, but otherwise, ignore the cat. (Unless you get really lucky and she comes up to you and winds around your legs, which is not likely.) You can observe her out of the corner of your eye, but act as if she isn't there. Except, talk softly or sing when you are in the room. Don't forget to leave fresh water and a litter box available at all times. Put as much distance as you can between the litter box and the food and water location. In between feedings, you can clean the litter box and refresh the water. At first, act as if she isn't there. When she's used to the routine and eating, stay in the room when you bring the food. Keep as much distance away as you can. Sit very still. If you must move, do it slowly. When you do look her way, slowly blink your eyes at her. If she will eat while you are there, you can move a tiny bit closer each time. Call a vet and explain the situation, that you can't move the cat and she is pregnant, and ask about any parasite treatment you might be allowed to put in her food or what you might need to do about fleas. You might also try sleeping in the room some nights. She may come out and explore you. If she is not tame enough to let you handle the kittens when they come, you probably will have to wean them earlier than you would hope. You may get other advice, but if the mother proves to be uncooperative, you should expect to separate her from the kittens when they are about five or six weeks old, or at when they are starting to eat solid food. (By the way, you'll need a litter box they can get into and out of, because they will start to use it about that time, also.) Kittens handled this early can come around in a matter of days. Normally, you would give them more time with their mother, but the handling at this age is very important, even if you have to separate them early. I'm hoping you will have made enough progress with the mother that the separation is not necessary, but you have to take what you can get. They can be neutered when they weigh more than two pounds (about 1 kg). Good luck. You have a kind heart. Annie >They're in the world now, >in their mother's womb. that's not in the world but if you believe it is go with your feelings and best fo luck placing difficult kittens. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album >> With millions of perfectly nice and non feral cats needing homes, >> bringing more little lives into the world doesn't make [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -cr Good for you. In my opinion, you are doing the responsible thing. The fact is the cat is pregnant and it's not like you're going to leave them on the side of the road when the kittens are born - you'll be able to find homes, right? Besides, aborting the kittens now would like be aborting a baby in the third trimester without the mother's consent and that is just wrong... animal or human. I am sure when the birthing day comes, the cat will make itself comfortable and do it's thing. >(when I said I would neuter kittens at 6 months if not adopted) >> Do it earlier and place them. 2# +. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >thoughts about what life is worth saving are not limited to >medical minds. Nice job keeping your cool. Janet is a nasty human being who loves to be the first to respond so she can ruin someone's day. You are the second person she has iced in the past 48 hours. The other one didn't handle it as well. Anyway, this group is actually very useful for your situation. Others here will give you good information as opposed to judgements. There is no shortage off freaky cat-ladies here, as you will quickly see, but they do in fact know the ins and outs of cat care. I suggest you get the group involved in placing the kittens once they are born. These gals love to grab hold of a problem and run with it. Where do you live, anyway? Maybe I could take one of those kitties off your hands. I almost got a second cat recently, but the deal fell through, so I've got an opening. Charlie > Where do you live, anyway? Maybe I could take one of those kitties > off your hands. I almost got a second cat recently, but the deal fell > through, so I've got an opening. In middle Georgia. The most recent kitten I got was from the Oconee Regional Humane Society of Putnam and Greene Counties, a good group of people, in my opinion. If the kittens are born, I'll post a note about it here. But right now I'm trying to help the mother-to-be accept her captivity and have a healthy litter. -cr > have >a healthy litter. good luck on that one - the odds are against you. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:05:25 -0400, Janet B <janet@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> amazed us with his/her particular brand of stupidity in <85pie19d6knv3mfgassi6mgpjm12nq127n@4ax.com> in rec.pets.cats.health+behav when he/she wrote: >> have >>a healthy litter. > >good luck on that one - the odds are against you. You know less than nothing about the cat, circumstances, etc. Perhaps it's best if you kept your opinions to yourself unless you have something constructive and helpful to add. SignatureK. A. Cannon kcannon at insurgent dot org (change the orgy to org to reply) HAMMER OF THOR Winner - April 2005 Spirituality: The last refuge of a failed human. Just another way of distracting yourself from who you really are. >I suggest you get the group involved in placing the kittens once they >are born. These gals love to grab hold of a problem and run with it. >Where do you live, anyway? Maybe I could take one of those kitties >off your hands. Cut it out, Charlie. Stacia >>I suggest you get the group involved in placing the kittens once they >>are born. These gals love to grab hold of a problem and run with it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Stacia What? You don't think I'm sitting here with a smirk on my face, do you? Charlie > I'm not aware of any vet recommendations in this case. But > thoughts about what life is worth saving are not limited to > medical minds. > > -cr I understand where you are coming from. When I first got involved in rescue, I felt sick about having a pregnant cat spayed and the kittens aborted. Then I started to see just how many kittens are in need of homes. I always thought "oh kittens are easy to adopt, there are enough homes to go around." No there are NOT! And even though kittens can be easy enough to place, it's all the work that is involved before they are old enough for adoption (8 weeks by law, better at 12 weeks, IMO) that is the real strain on shelters and rescues. Kittens get euthanized. I bet most people don't realize that. They think "I'll take these cute and fuzzy kittens to the shelter and they will all get homes!" Well, if they are under 8 weeks and/or ill in any way, they may very well get put down. Please rethink this. If you really want to save some kittens, go to your local rescue and foster a litter that have already been born. -Kelly >I understand where you are coming from. When I first got involved in >rescue, I felt sick about having a pregnant cat spayed and the kittens [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >-Kelly Thanks Kelly - this can't be emphasized enough. Shelters are overrun with kittens (yeah one managed to snag me when I gave a tour, but there's only so much of that you can do! ;-D). there aren't enough homes. And for ferals even fewer. A sad reality. 25 years ago I would have been shocked to hear that someone would abort kittens and spay, but then reality set in. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album >> I'm not aware of any vet recommendations in this case. But >> thoughts about what life is worth saving are not limited to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > -Kelly I have to agree with this, too. Once you see kittens euthanized just for being born, it's hard to see more that might end up doomed. Though, I respect the wishes of Calvin and wish him and the momcat and the babies-to-be well. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > Hello. I got into this extreme situation trying to save kittens > from being aborted. A person I know was going to have a near-wild [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > -cr Sorry but, as someone who is involved in cat rescue, my advice would be to have the mother cat spayed and the kittens aborted. Yes it's sad, but there are soooo many kittens out there in need of homes, and ones coming from a feral mother are going to be that much harder to place. The mother cat is not going to grieve the loss of her kittens, she will go right back to normal. Female cats can get very stressed out and not act themselves when pregnant anyway. Throw on top of that the fact that she's probably feral, and this is one difficult cat. It doesn't sound like you have any experience with feral cats or fostering mother cats and kittens. Chances are if you do let her have the kittens, you won't see them for quite a while. And then, the kittens are going to be initially afraid of people and you are really going to have to work with them in order to get them adoptable. Do both you and the cat a favor and have her spayed. -Kelly Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. The cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom or in the garage. Six weeks after the litter is born, the owner of the mother will come get her and have her spayed. My question is how to see to it that the mother-to-be starts to eat, drink water, and use the litter box in the bedrrom where she is confined. My worry is that the mother-to-be will waste away, or miscarry, or something, I know not what, because of the trauma of being suddenly confined in a stranger's house. If the kittens are actually born normally, I don't see why they will be different from any other kittens. If this was happening outside, yes, the kittens would become feral. That already has happened. This will be the cat's second litter. But the first litter was born in the wild, and remained half-wild. I say half-wild because all of these cats have been underfoot around the person's house, but hard to trap for neutering, although all had been trapped and neutered, except Blackie. Yes, I'm inexperienced, though I have four cats. That's why I'm asking for advice on how to help the mother and save the litter. =cr > Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. > The cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom > or in > the garage. Six weeks after the litter is born, the owner of the > mother will come get her and have her spayed. > My question is how to see to it that the mother-to-be starts to > eat, drink water, and use the litter box in the bedrrom where > she is confined. My worry is that the mother-to-be will waste > away, or miscarry, or something, I know not what, because of the > trauma of being suddenly confined in a stranger's house. > If the kittens are actually born normally, I don't see why they > will be different from any other kittens. If this was happening [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but hard to trap for neutering, although all had been trapped and > neutered, except Blackie. > Yes, I'm inexperienced, though I have four cats. That's why I'm > asking for advice on how to help the mother and save the litter. This is all so well-meant, but also so very unwise. Yes, the mother's stress will almost certainly influence her own health and that of the little ones. Even if they are born without damage due to her fear, chances aren't high they'll become human-adjusted kittens with her around... and she'll try and keep them from you, be sure of that. At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she resided. Anything but this. Joske > At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the > question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she > resided. Anything but this. No, the spay/abort option is still available. I can have the cat taken away to the vet tomorrow, assuming we can get her back in the cage. I can put on thick gardening gloves and a heavy shirt and try to handle the cat, maybe getting a pillow case around her, with help. But I wonder why a cat, in the middle of her mothering instincts, would not be horribly traumatized by suddenly becoming not pregnant. Since stress for the mother seemed a sure thing, whether the kittens were aborted or saved, I concentrated on trying to save the kittens. I told the owners it was none of my business, but they allowed me to make it my business. -cr > But I wonder why a cat, in the middle of her mothering instincts, > would not be horribly traumatized by suddenly becoming not pregnant. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr Because the pregnancy hormones are what contributes to stressing her out. Once those subside, she will go back to her normal self. Believe me, I have experience in this area. -Kelly >> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she >> resided. Anything but this. > No, the spay/abort option is still available. > I told the owners it was none of my business, but > they allowed me to make it my business. I still think it's wrong what you are doing. Shelters are filled to the brim with kittens, many born out of sentimental reasons similar yours. Some of the same people who fought fiercely over one cat to be saved from a kill shelter, are now fierce against anyone who is for spaying and thus terminating the litter of the cat you have there. It goes to show how difficult it is to keep sentimentality at bay and decide wisely. Global group hugs over this doubtful 'rescue' regardless, in my view it's a shame the 'owners' allowed you to make this your business, and I really think the initial rescue should have been allowed to take its course. Joske >>> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >>> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Joske Your opinion is based on a rational and informed analysis and makes perfect sense. But you can box yourself in with political correctness. When you drive a car, you contribute to global warming. When you buy catfood, you contribute to factory farming of animals. When you buy cheap imports, you contribute to exploitive labor practices and/or tropical deforestation. Where do you start, and where do you stop? Most people want to start somewhere, maybe by avoiding imports associated with the worst labor practices. But face it -- we all stop well short of perfection in our personal choices, if not in our public affirmations. Given that context, I'm comfortable with Calvin's decision even if it's not consistent with the best general policy. I think it will be fun to follow the story. Charlie >>>> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >>>> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she >>>> resided. Anything but this. >>> No, the spay/abort option is still available. >>> I told the owners it was none of my business, but >>> they allowed me to make it my business. >> I still think it's wrong what you are doing. Shelters are filled >> to the brim with kittens, many born out of sentimental reasons [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> think the initial rescue should have been allowed to take its >> course. > Your opinion is based on a rational and informed analysis and > makes perfect sense. But you can box yourself in with political > correctness. [ ] It's about a fearful, stressed-out pregnant feral, and about putting more cats into an already overpopulated cat-world full of kill shelters and elderly and flawed cats losing from cute kittens. Sorry Charlie, I'm not in for debating and I deem myself intelligent and wise enough to do my own 'boxing in' when it's in order :-) Joske >>> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >>> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Joske Speaking as The One who returned an adult cat that had immediately became quite sick and then took advantage of the municipal shelter's 14 day return/exchange policy for a newly arrived kitten, this post caught my attention. There is a clique here who LIVE for animal crusades. I see a couple of those same screen names in cats.anecdotes. The Righteous Do Gooders. Joske, you can have your beliefs about the "initial rescue" but the fact of the matter is ... good intentions do not take the place of effectiveness ... and time was running out in Conan's case. Having participated and watched that publicized fiasco, the effective people are those who just quietly walk in and adopt. Speaking of spaying very young kittens, in California it is required that ANY animal received into the shelter be sterilized before it is adopted out. The minimum standard for cats is 8 weeks of age and at least 2 pounds in weight. Interesting too is if your prized breeding animal becomes shelter property, when you retrieve your pet, that pet will now be sterile. How about that! Since I'm the criminal who just wants to rationalize his crime I doubt anyone cares what I have to say, but of all the views I've heard in the last week I've never seen anyone acknowledge that these unborn kitten lives have any value. But even if it is true that for every kitten born in this litter another living cat will die, there's no net loss of life. You can argue with much force and conviction that I don't have the right to swap life for life, but I don't see how you can argue that any real net harm to the total cat population will have been done. You can say, correctly, that if I had let these kittens go, and then been motivated to go out and adopt five more kittens, I would have improved the overall situation, but that wasn't likely. In the human abortion issue, I'm hated by pro-choice people because I propose a compromise between the two extreme positions. One extreme is thinking that because life begins at conception, any abortion, even a morning-after pill, is murder. The other extreme is thinking that abortion on demand is ok, right up until the moment of birth. My compromise is for the woman to have the right of choice for the first six month, but to lose the right of choice after that point. I can just see smoke coming out of the ears of some of you right now because I, a male, dare to have an opinion about what a woman should do with her body, at any time. So I know there's no hope for any real agreement between all of us on these issues. But I believe that viable human unborn children and near full term kittens are lives that are just as valuable as those that have been born. People can call me names and condemn me forever, but they cant change those core beliefs about the unborn. They can cause me to alter my planned behavior in some ways, though, and I'm seriously considering making a lifetime committment to these precious unborn kittens, and dropping any plans to try to find homes for them. -cr > Since I'm the criminal who just wants to rationalize his crime I > doubt anyone cares what I have to say, but [snip] > You can argue with much force and conviction that I don't have the > right to swap life for life, but [snip] You posted about it seemingly seeking advice for a dire situation, thereby inviting advice and opinions. I don't consider the opinions differing from yours as arguing, let alone 'with force'. If anything, it seems to me that from the start you were determined to see this through despite contrary views that might come your way. Feel free to try and turn this into a discussion trying to convince people of your right, but try and realize that if I had thought you were doing the stressed mother cat and the cat population a service, I would not have posted to the contrary in the first place, now would I :-) Joske Joske, I think you're misinterpreting things I wrote, or I didn't express them well enough. Yes, this began with me asking advice last Thursday, but there have been big changes, and many differing views put forth. All I'm saying is that I wanted to save kittens from abortion, and probably I will keep them and not look for other homes for them. -cr By the way, Joske, if I seemed to be responding to a post of yours, if I didn't quote your post then I wasn't responding to you. Everyone's advice has been civil and sincere, it seems to me, except that Arjun Ray came on with extreme hostility. Maybe I've become more defensive after that, but it's not his or her fault, of course. If I can handle abuse it's my fault. No, I didn't rush to have the kittens aborted as soon as people advised it, but that doesn't mean that their advice has had no influence. -cr > By the way, Joske, if I seemed to be responding to a post > of yours, if I didn't quote your post then I wasn't responding [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -cr I think you have been unusual in the sense that you are NOT taking people's criticism personally and really looking at all sides of the matter. Even though I don't necessarily agree with your choice, I commend you for listening to all sides and keeping those things in mind as you move forward. Most people (myself included, probably) would take immediate offense and be nasty in return. Human nature I guess. Anyway, good luck. And thanks for the updates. Pam > By the way, Joske, if I seemed to be responding to a post > of yours, if I didn't quote your post then I wasn't responding [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but it's not his or her fault, of course. If I can handle abuse > it's my fault. > No, I didn't rush to have the kittens aborted as soon as > people advised it, but that doesn't mean that their advice > has had no influence. Your post was in response to Philip's which was in response to me. Plus you addressed people as a whole in it, so there :-) I've shared my opinion, all that rests is to wish the mother cat and you good luck. Joske > Your post was in response to Philip's which was in > response to me. Plus you addressed people as a > whole in it, so there :-) > I've shared my opinion, all that rests is to wish the > mother cat and you good luck. Thanks. I'm very confused about who said what to whom and why. Yes, I posted some things meant for anyone who wanted to read it, so you are right to respond as if written to you. But, in general, I'm using the Google web-based Usenet groups function, and the only way I know to make a new post is to 'reply' to another post. But if in my 'reply' to Philip I didn't quote anything that Philip wrote, then I wasn't actually replying to Philip, but just using his post to hang mine on. I don't know any other way.to do it. That said, debates about abortion are usually the worst kind, because each side wants to accuse the other of murder, and no good can come of it. So I'll quit now. I'll try to limit my posts to simple updates about the cat and kittens. If kittens are born, and things go well, I'll post pictures. Calvin Rice > I'm very confused about who said what to whom and why. Yes, > I posted some things meant for anyone who wanted to read it, > so you are right to respond as if written to you. But, in general, > I'm using the Google web-based Usenet groups function, and To quote text in Google, click on the post, then click on "show options" next to the subject, *then* click on "reply". That will quote all the text in the message to which you are replying. Hugs, CatNipped >> Your post was in response to Philip's which was in >> response to me. Plus you addressed people as a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >so you are right to respond as if written to you. But, in general, >I'm using the Google web-based Usenet groups function, and Yikes. That's not very good. What sort of connection do you have? If you have an ordinary ISP, they almost certainly have a news server that carries this group. I suggest you download a decent newsreader, like Forte Agent, which has a 30-day trial period. You are the type of person who will get hooked on Usenet if you aren't already. >the only way I know to make a new post is to 'reply' to another >post. But if in my 'reply' to Philip I didn't quote anything that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >posts to simple updates about the cat and kittens. If kittens >are born, and things go well, I'll post pictures. Yes. All will be forgotten when those kitten pix and updates start coming on-line, Calvin. The cat ladies will be sending you offers of marriage and naked pix of themselves. BTW Sharon Talbert posted some very detailed information that ought to be useful. Charlie >> Calvin Rice wrote: >>>> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >>>> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she >>>> resided. Anything but this. >>> No, the spay/abort option is still available. >>> I told the owners it was none of my business, but >>> they allowed me to make it my business. >> I still think it's wrong what you are doing. Shelters are filled >> to the brim with kittens, many born out of sentimental reasons [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> think the initial rescue should have been allowed to take its >> course. > Speaking as The One who returned an adult cat that had > immediately became quite sick and then took advantage of the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Having participated and watched that publicized fiasco, the > effective people are those who just quietly walk in and adopt. > Speaking of spaying very young kittens, in California it is > required that ANY animal received into the shelter be sterilized > before it is adopted out. The minimum standard for cats is 8 > weeks of age and at least 2 pounds in weight. Interesting too is > if your prized breeding animal becomes shelter property, when you > retrieve your pet, that pet will now be sterile. How about that! I think you've got me pegged wrong: your bringing back Conan for the reasons there appeared to be, didn't come across very positive to me. Besides that, I have read the whole story and did not appreciate your nor the final 'rescuers' roles in it. As for spaying, the policy of shelters in my country is the same: no animal, whether moggie or pedigree, leaves a shelter intact. People going mushy or indifferent over litters are the reason shelters have no choice but to do this if they don't want to be part of the problem. Joske >> Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. >> The cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Joske I'm not entirely familiar with feral kittens, but I believe they can still be socialized. Starting when they can open their eyes and wander around without mom for a while, you can seperate them (maybe?) for a few minutes a day, longer and longer periods as they get older. Six weeks is hardly so long in the tooth they'll never come around. >> At this point, if that former neutering option is out of the >> question now for some reason, I'd even put her back where she [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > they get older. Six weeks is hardly so long in the tooth they'll > never come around. Scarlett and Rhett were born outdoors and not rescued by a wonderful soul until at least 5 weeks, but my vet thinks they were older than that when she examined them, when they were estimated to be 9 weeks. Scarlett is almost fearless, but Rhett still acts feral in that he hides at the slightest sound that he thinks is a stranger coming in the house. When friends are over, they see Scarlett after a long while, but not Rhett. I'm starting to think that all of the rescue cats that I've ever been exposed to when I volunteered for the local SPCA were all owner-give-ups. Same with the strays that I used to feed and then found homes for. Ferals and their offspring are a totally different "breed". SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > Six weeks is hardly so long in the tooth they'll never come around. Six weeks is a magic number for me because in both cases when I adopted a six week kitten, or maybe a little less, they accepted my holding them immediately, and they let me feed them in my lap, and we were off to the races. Yes I learned that taking care of a tiny kitten is a big commitment, but the issue was not whether it could be tamed or not. The first one was found by a friend of mine near a dumpster, so he had a bad beginning, but was easily tamable. The other one had been a 'mess' for the rescue lady to clean up, but she gave it to me after having had it only a day. It had an unbelievably loud demanding squawk whenever I started fixing food, but was just as accepting of affection as the other one. In my experience, six weeks or a little less has been a very successful age for starting with a kitten. I adopted another kitten at about 8 or 9 weeks, and though he hid from me a little bit at first, all was well within a few hours. -cr > I'm not entirely familiar with feral kittens, but I believe they can still > be socialized. Starting when they can open their eyes and wander around > without mom for a while, you can seperate them (maybe?) for a few minutes > a day, longer and longer periods as they get older. Six weeks is hardly so > long in the tooth they'll never come around. Oh no, it's not impossible at all. It just takes a good deal of work and committment. Having had regular social kittens and ferally kittens as fosters, I can tell you the experiences are completely different. -Kelly > I'm not entirely familiar with feral kittens, but I believe they can > still be socialized. Starting when they can open their eyes and wander > around without mom for a while, you can seperate them (maybe?) for a > few minutes a day, longer and longer periods as they get older. Six > weeks is hardly so long in the tooth they'll never come around. We think our kittens were 6 - 8 weeks when we trapped them. They're well socalized but different than cats that were born handled from birth. They still get up and run when we reach towards them, for instance. They're still adapting 2 years after being trapped, and I expect they'll continue to socalize as we work with them. Some of the feral cat people we talked to seemed to think it was much more difficult to socalize after the 6 week mark, and after 8 to 10 weeks it was almost impossible. I'm not sure I believe that... their mom still lives in our yard and is extremely social for a cat that we can't touch. She even knocks to come inside and play with the kittens and the cat toys. b > Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. The > cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom or in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > =cr She could hide them somewhere and/or not let you anywhere near the kittens. Believe me, I know this happens. Our shelter vet does spay pregnant mothers, but not if they are close to delivery, so sometimes we are stuck with feral moms with kittens. I haven't fostered a feral mom and kittens personally, but many of my shelter friends have. The mother becomes fiercely protective of the litter, and, I don't know if you've observed this, she will practically sit on the kittens and not let you touch them. I have fostered motherless semi-feral kittens that I got at five weeks, and they took a lot of work. They will hiss, spit, and claw at you. Being born indoors is not automatically going to make them sweet, friendly kittens. Lastly, how many generations feral the kittens will be also has a factor in how hard it will be to socialize them. Do you have the mother cat in a cage right now? That would be the best thing. She will be more comfortable in a small space. Put a little condo or box in the cage for her to hide in. -Kelly I'm totally confused now, but I can clear up one small thing. I keep tiny kittens totally in view even when I take them outside. I never meant I would leave them outside unattended. It has always been just one kitten in the past though. With four or five, maybe taking them outside would be impractical for any period of time. That issue is far in the future though. Right now, the mother-to-be is still in hiding and hasn't come out to eat or drink or anything else even though I have been leaving her alone for two or three hours at a time, and just checking on her now and then. I'll leave her fresh food and water for the night, and if she hasn't touched it by morning I'll guess I'll have to give up and let the cat go to the vet for spaying/aborting, and the thread that these kittens' lives have been hanging by will break. It's very sad, but if the mother is going to starve or dehydrate herself to death, or do harm to her health, I have to stop this before it goes too far. -cr > I'm totally confused now, but I can clear up one small thing. I > keep tiny kittens totally in view even when I take them outside. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -cr That sounds like a very good plan, Calvin. I really feel for you for being in this situation. Not easy. At all. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > I'll leave her fresh food and water for the night, and if she hasn't > touched it by morning I'll guess I'll have to give up and let the cat > go to the vet for spaying/aborting, and the thread that these > kittens' lives have been hanging by will break. It's very sad, but > if the mother is going to starve or dehydrate herself to death, > or do harm to her health, I have to stop this before it goes too far. I agree, too, that spaying now is probably the best option but I also know what it is like to be "called" to do something as you feel you have been. I don't have a moral objection to abortion anyway, even in humans, but I do understand that others feel differently. So, taking your feelings into consideration, I'm not sure that just giving her until the morning to come around is long enough. I would do what Rhonda said and move the food and water to right where she is hiding and then I would not go in there at all. But it still might take longer than you think it should. I'm just saying that if you are so committed, then I would not necessarily make the cut-off time so soon. But I don't know what the cut-off should be, either, 2 days, 3 days? I know it's bad for cats to go without eating for a couple of days but I don't really know how long they can go without doing themselves harm. We recently got a home for an outdoor stray kitty we had been feeding. It took him about 3 days to even begin eating at his new home. I was getting very worried about him but then he ate. Good luck, you obviously have a good heart. Candace >> Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. The >> cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom or in [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > -Kelly Well, that's news to me! I'm very unexperienced with feral bitties. I knew they will hiss and spit but assumed they could be socialized without *too* much trouble. I'm not going to say generations will make a difference, but I'm surprised that it's inherited to such a degree very small kittens will continue to be feral after being removed from their mother. (not doubting, but genuinely surprised) Grace learning something new daily > Well, that's news to me! I'm very unexperienced with feral bitties. I knew > they will hiss and spit but assumed they could be socialized without *too* [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Grace > learning something new daily It's not too much trouble once you get into it and start gaining the kittens' trust. I didn't mean to sound completely negative. My point was to give the OP a worst-case scenario so he knows what he's in for. It can freak you out to have these little bitties hissing and spitting at you. They really do need to stay caged or in a small room to get used to being with people. I don't have any scientific proof on the generational thing, it's something I was told. I should look it up to see if it's true but it made sense to me so I took it at face value. -Kelly > >> Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. The > >> cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom or in [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Grace > learning something new daily I don't think it's a matter of "inheriting" feralness, but that the mother cat is a *huge* factor in teaching her kittens, and if she's feral she'll teach her kittens to be afraid of humans and that's what will carry down through the generations. Hugs, CatNipped >> >> Kelly, if the mother has her kittens, I certainly will see them. The >> >> cat is indoors, and will stay indoors, either in the bedroom or in [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >teach her kittens to be afraid of humans and that's what will carry down >through the generations. I think there is an inherited feralness in the family lines of feral cats. Their survival in the wild depends on their ability to avoid humans and any other dangers and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a genetic component that has developed in ferals that makes them more successful. SignatureDitty "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." (anonymous) http://www.dearauntnettie.com http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum http://www.dearauntnettie.com/gallery >> I don't think it's a matter of "inheriting" feralness, but that the mother >> cat is a *huge* factor in teaching her kittens, and if she's feral she'll [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > genetic component that has developed in ferals that makes them more > successful. <genetic pendant> 'Selected for' rather than 'developed'. Those cats which don't have the trait don't survive long enough to contribute substantially to the gene pool. </pendant> There are a few ferals that live in our backyard and they're very cautious of humans. Both Lady Grey and Mojito know we are the bringers of food and will sit at the back door and ask for their bowls to be filled. They will even not run when we open the back door. But we're not allowed to touch them. The black cat isn't convinced he's allowed in the yard (and he wasn't until Mojito died) so he still runs if he sees us moving around. Lady Grey is getting better. She'll come inside and use the scratching post and play with toys and has started approaching us and sniffing us when she's feeling especially brave. b >'Selected for' rather than 'developed'. Those cats which don't have the >trait don't survive long enough to contribute substantially to the gene >pool. Well, yes, that was what I was going for. SignatureDitty "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." (anonymous) http://www.dearauntnettie.com http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum http://www.dearauntnettie.com/gallery >I'm not going to say generations will make a difference, but I'm surprised >that it's inherited to such a degree very small kittens will continue to be >feral after being removed from their mother. (not doubting, but genuinely >surprised) If you consider that a feral cat and her parents, etc., survived as feral, I think that there may be a genetic trait that has made them successful as ferals - like avoiding humans at all costs. My fearl-born cat is now 11, but she still runs like hell when there's a knock on the door or a new person in the house, or a sudden noise. She is strictly an indoor cat, too. But since she has known me since she was about 8-9weeks old, she certainly is affectionate and loves snuggling with me, if not anyone else. SignatureDitty "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." (anonymous) http://www.dearauntnettie.com http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum http://www.dearauntnettie.com/gallery > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:01:54 -0500, .... My > fearl-born cat is now 11, but she still runs like hell when there's a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > snuggling with me, if not anyone else. > Ditty Our Cinder was homeless for about 12 hours, which was the time from when she and her littermates were delivered to the Humane Society and we adopted her at 7 weeks old. She is definitely not and never has been a feral. She also runs and hides when someone is at the door and is not a snuggler, either, except with someone she knows. However, she loves attention, and will come out to be admired if the company stays long enough. It's hard to say how much behavior is inherited and how much is due to environment. Sort of like with people. Annie A status report. I think the cat ate a little dry food during the day today, after eating a good meal of Sheba last night, which was also available today. I'll replace it with fresh tonight. Today she climbed up behind drawers in a chest after I had removed the lower drawer. But I finally found the hiding place and removed the other drawers. Now she finally is using the soft comfortable place that I had prepared for her in the closet. I hope she continues to accept it. It's well out of my reach, but I can easily glance in to see what's going on. Somehow I don't think it will be that easy for very long. Maybe most of you have seen the horrific picture of dead cats at a shelter. Someone sent it to me today. Obviously there's a cat holocaust going on. The owner of the cat, if you can call him that, and I will decide Sunday night if he is going to talk to his vet monday and get his opinion on all this. This is the same vet with whom the guy has been carrying on a trap/neuter/release program, with the cat in my house being the last one left to be fixed. I still don't know what is ultimately best. I talked to the long-time dedicated lady at the local animal rescue shelter and she assured me that the local situation is as bad as all over, and that when people take cats privately from people like me, it means they don't take them from the shelter, with the committment and money required. That's a pretty compelling argument, except for one thing. The shelter requires a promise that the cats will be kept indoors. I learned this two years ago and got a kitten from an adjoining county, where no such promise was required. And it is still the policy. The lady explained why she thinks it better to euthanize than allow outdoor adoption. I can't fully accept her argument on this point, but it's the policy nevertheless. That means that if I offer kittens (neutered at 2 pounds) to people who definitely want outdoor cats, or indoor/outdoor, then I wont be sentencing cats at the shelter to death. Kittens that I can't place this way I will keep. Of course this requires that potential takers of cats from me will be honest about wanting only outdoor cats. If the kittens are born before Monday morning, this will be my approach to dealing with them when the time for adoption comes. But if they are not born before Monday morning, I'm still conflicted about whether to try to save them or let them go. Also, the state of the mother between now and Monday morning is a big factor too. -cr >A status report. I think the cat ate a little dry food during the day > today, after eating a good meal of Sheba last night, which was [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > -cr Thank you for giving this a lot of thought. One major factor in the decision to go ahead and spay will be how far along the mother is. Many vets won't spay if the fetuses are past the point of viability. As for the indoor/outdoor debate, well, if you have some time, Google it on this group and you will find many varying opinions. The shelter I'm with has an indoor-only adoption policy, but we do make some exceptions depending on the cat and the home, these are rare though. I live in a typical USA suburban area with traffic and increasing predators (coyotes, fisher cats, etc) due to development. I believe in this type of environment indoor-only is best. I wish you the best no matter what you decide. I know I came on a little strong, but spay/neuter is a cause very close to my heart. -Kelly Concerning the indoor/outdoor debate, when I asked the lady at the shelter why they insist on indoor adoptions even though some unadopted cats have to be euthanized, part of her argument was the usual about the shortened expected lifespan of an outdoor cat; and when I asked why a shortened lifespan was worse than the no lifespan of a euthanized cat, I never fully grasped her argument, but it was to the effect that people neglect outdoor cats when they see what trouble and vet expense can be involved. In my case I'm well aware of the trouble and expense of taking five cats to the vet, for neutering, rabies shots, ear mites, eye problems, inflamed bites probably from other cats, worming because of cats eating parts of rodents with fleas. The most serious thing was a high fever that turned out to probably be from a bite. Maybe she's right that most people neglect their outdoor cats, though I never would. Also there's a whole lot of worry about outdoor cats, and alarm when they are missing for a while, and grief when one really disappears, as happened two years ago. And when one has cats with a place to come in and out at will, that means other animals, like o'possums and other cats, also come in. My life with indoor/outdoor cats for the past five years has been an adventure, and if I had it to do over, I would go the letting-in/ letting-out way, and always feed them in the kitchen, which would have made life very much easier.. The point is, I know the issues involved, but still think the outdoors in my neighborhood is just too good for cats to deny it to them. They love the outdoors, which is natural to them. (Not that anyone else should think this way.) -cr | I know I came on a little strong, but spay/neuter is a cause very | close to my heart. Same here. I'm more than a little late in this thread, but I'll say this: I have no sympathy for the idea - and plan - of eventually adopting out kittens from a litter that could have been prevented. That is, if you're going to willingly allow a pregnancy to proceed to term, the kittens are *yours*. Assuming that others will have the space to accommodate your squeamishness is the same as assuming that you're entitled to have others take your problems off your hands. > ... > That is, if you're going to willingly allow a pregnancy to > proceed to term, the kittens are *yours*. Assuming > that others will have the space to accommodate your > squeamishness is the same as assuming that you're > entitled to have others take your problems off your hands. You're making a lot of assumptions, and it looks like you only skimmed over the facts of this case. -cr Update: The cat continues to eat very well, and she started using the litter box last night. I was intending to try spreading dirt over the top of the litter, but hadn't gotten around to it. Last night she started making some noises for the first time, as any confined cat will. I don't know if that's good or not. Maybe it means she is less fearful, or maybe something else. I wondered if it meant that the birth was at hand, but nothing yet, this morning. Thankfully, she continues to prefer the place prepared for her in closet, and has stopped trying to hide. She spent more time in the window sill last night too. -cr Good luck to you and the cat-mom (does she have a name?) Hope all goes well. Rhonda PS -- Are you feeding her kitten food? She needs the extra nutrients right now. Change her over slowly if she's on adult food. > Update: The cat continues to eat very well, and she started using > the litter box last night. I was intending to try spreading dirt over > the top of the litter, but hadn't gotten around to it. | > That is, if you're going to willingly allow a pregnancy to | > proceed to term, the kittens are *yours*. Assuming [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | You're making a lot of assumptions, and it looks like you | only skimmed over the facts of this case. From your original post: : I got into this extreme situation trying to save kittens : from being aborted. A person I know was going to have a near-wild : pregnant cat spayed and aborted, but I persuaded him to give the : cat to me until six weeks after the litter is born [...] and : I will keep the kittens and try to find homes for them. Now read what I wrote. |
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