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Cat is terrified to go outdoors - UPDATE

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LC - 15 Jul 2005 14:19 GMT
This poor little thing has had a litany of tests over the years, she
definitely has allergies, she has had every treatement to rule out this and
that over the years - I don't remember most of them, a skin biopsy which
took a lump out of her lovely face which proved inconclusive- even took her
many many times to the Vet of the Year here in Ireland (very long drives
over several months).  Kit has had the best of treatment but in the end all
vets agree the picking fur off her face is psychological.   We could go
further with the allergy testing, but I refuse to put her through any more
probing for a result that will be at best 40% accurate.  She will not
co-operate with any food allergy trials, preferring to starve than eat cat
food.  This new behaviour now with what I presume is the result of a bee
sting, from the evidence, is only the latest to add to the catalogue.

Anyway, the news is better, kit now has been going out every night a bit
earlier, last night it was still bright when she went out !  9pm, and now
comes back around midnight and lets me pet her to sleep on my bed.  For the
last two days she has also worked up the courage for the morning shift, from
7:30 to 10am.    Hubby does a stint of 'forced outdoors' work with her now
each day.  The first day 1 minute, followed by 5 minutes same day, yesterday
he did18 minutes where we provide a barricade with a table and some cushions
to help her feel some protection.   My husband also sits with her (her great
protector from dogs etc and her hero).   She relaxed enough to take a sip of
milk and yesterday, he says she was about to fall asleep out there before I
called time.  She is learning to walk, rather than run back into the house
when this little stint is over and amazingly not hide under the bed
afterwards other than the first minute first day.  She has developed a
tendency to roll over much much more on a favourite mat or carpet if she
thinks there is any danger we will pick her up to take her out - very clever
!  Knows we cannot resist petting her.     Just a half an hour ago, after a
long sleep, she came downstairs by herself and looked for her food in the
normal spot before all this started (a first!)

And there are now 2 dead bees on my doorstep, something I have never seen
before, but I wonder if this was done by her, and could be a two-in-one i.e.
revenge on the bees combined with a gift for mum and dad who have taken care
of her so well for the last 10 days.   I've had mice and birds as gifts
before but bees are new and seem to confirm the theory.    Just hope it
isn't her as playing with bees is only likely to lead to further beestings !

Laura

"Alison" <Alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:db3p7q$fcv$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi Laura
> ,This is a very interesting case so to speak . It would be good if you
> could get to see the behaviourist . They usually come to your house
> but perhaps the one your vet recommended lives too far away.
>   What tests have your vet done? Sometimes "behaviour" problems can
> have a medical cause.
>  Allergies can cause a cat to chew its fur.
>  http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_eosinophilic_granuloma.html
>  Alison
>
> --"LC" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:8zDAe.2356$R5.515@news.indigo.ie...
> > Thank you all so very much for your different ideas and thoughts.
> > Late last night kitty left the house after 6 days. under cover of
> > darkness......there were no flies buzzing around late at night and
> as she
> > asked to go out for the umpteenth time,  I decided to let her, sure
> that she
> > would run back in after a few seconds.....but the little madam went
> out
> > slowly at first, at 12:30am and did not return until 5:25 am, except
> to come
> > back occasionally and say hello, accept a little tuna, but not to
> come in.
> > We tried chasing her many times to come back in (a game where she
> usually
> > eventually concedes) but she was happy enjoying a good time after
> many days
> > of being cooped up and in the end we let her play, it was a warm
> night and
> > we were just so relieved she went out and seemed happy and
> comfortable with
> > it....little sexy catwalk parading up and down
> confidently......simply
> > amazing !  Much better than the cowering, terrified little scrap of
> fur she
> > was earlier.    We took the decision then, as she had taken that
> first huge
> > step, not to freak her out any further today by taking her to the
> vet
> > (extremely traumatic experience for kitty).     I saw the vet today
> alone
> > without kit - the vet agreed to see me without her as she is very
> well
> > acquainted with kitty, in fact Kitty represents her particular pet
> subject,
> > its also hard to forget kit, she is so compelling and adorable.
> Where
> > to begin ?
> >
> > She thinks its highly likely that the leg is probably something
> kitty did to
> > herself (as my husband has said also for a while) since kitty is
> prone to
> > picking out her own fur, regularly taking out the third eyelid etc.
> although
> > the fur removal has been mostly confined to the head area and
> specifically
> > the eyes.   Kit has been doing very well with this problem for the
> last 12
> > months though, at least I thought she had.    She thinks that it is
> most
> > likely a bee sting or indeed with kit, it could be something she
> dreamed
> > although considering the force of kit's reaction, she believes it is
> a real
> > experience rather than an imaginary one.  My concern, as was the
> vets, is
> > how to calm her down sufficiently to allow her to begin to move on.
> We had
> > the time to properly discuss kits full background as she was not
> there
> > stressed, wanting to go home NOW, all strange problems related to
> the fact
> > that she is hypersenstive, highly intelligent, highly strung, the
> vet warned
> > me that she is highly manipulative etc etc. a whole lot of other
> highlys and
> > to a great extent I have created a monster by pandering to her every
> whim.
> > (Yes, we have built our lives around kitty - she is super-loved).
> All of
> > these things I already knew and love kitty for.      We had a long
> > discussion where we likened her to a person with Asperger's Syndrome
> to try
> > to relate to make a human comparison and the vet said that this is a
> case
> > where I cannot treat her as you would another cat.  I needed to
> encourage
> > her and not pander too much too any new demands, for example, only
> feeding
> > her upstairs for the last 6 days as she refused to come downstairs
> to
> > eat.....basically if I know she can come downstairs (she can) then
> maintain
> > her normal routine as much as possible, this will help relax her as
> she
> > loves routine - and she really does !!   Kit has eaten much cream
> and
> > chicken downstairs this evening - always susceptible to bribes, kit
> > understands the game, so long as she feels safe.     Kit wanted to
> go out
> > again this morning first thing (7:30am) skipped down to the door,
> saw a
> > beautiful sunny day and her daughter (the cat next door) waiting on
> the
> > doorstep to play with her, but this time she also saw a fly on the
> doorstep.
> > This had the by now familiar reaction- she let  out a simple whimper
> that
> > says "I'm terrified" and retreated at fantastic speed upstairs to
> hide under
> > a bed.     This time when I looked under the bed she had not flopped
> out
> > flat in depressed state, and back as far as possible, instead she
> was
> > sitting up, only halfway back and still looking lucid and
> bright-eyed and
> > interested.   She hopped straight out for me with just talking to
> her, and
> > went immediately to an upstairs window so the confidence is finally
> > building.   All good signs.  We have waited until 6pm to bring her
> > downstairs today, in the meantime I pampered her upstairs and let
> her sleep
> > a lot....it took 3 times of collecting her and bringing her down to
> get her
> > comfortable enough to stay downstairs and then she settled magically
> back to
> > her favourite window complete with comfy cushion.    Tonight she has
> asked
> > to go out again, at 10:00pm when darkness hit, and she is still out
> playing
> > right now.    She refuses to come in to this moment - 00:45 and I
> suspect I
> > am in for another long night.  For now, I don't care, it is worth it
> to see
> > that spark in her eyes and body language.
> >
> > So, for now, she will have to be a night cat when the flies go to
> sleep and
> > the buzzing stops.  In winter there will not be so many flies around
> and I
> > hope in time she conquers her fear.  I am sure she will with
> coaxing, love
> > and where necessary, bribery. :)   Meantime, we will put her on
> Prozac to
> > help her calm down (something which I was supposed to do some time
> ago in
> > relation to previous behaviours I had not associated with this.)   I
> held
> > off before as I was afraid of her becoming addicted, side-effects,
> how to
> > wean her off etc, but the vet told me it is slightly diff. for cats
> in terms
> > of addiction, I will watch closely for any adverse reaction, and we
> will
> > make it a short term affair, as in 8-10 weeks to see the effects and
> > reaction.   The vet was not entirely hopeful she will overcome this
> one
> > completely, due to the personality involved, but I remain confident
> in my
> > little kit, she is amazing.  I respect this vet a lot but I also
> know
> > something of determination and willpower and kit's will to go out is
> STRONG.
> > She will overcome.     The vet also gave me the name of a cat
> behaviour
> > specialist whom she says would be fascinated to meet with my kit and
> try to
> > understand her and help her, so we may go there in the future, not
> for now,
> > not until kit is more sure of herself when there are blue daylit
> skies
> > about.
> >
> > Thank you all so much for your responses.
> >
> > Laura
> >
> > <
>
> c
Reply to this Message
Alison - 15 Jul 2005 22:09 GMT
> This poor little thing has had a litany of tests over the years, she
> definitely has allergies, she has had every treatement to rule out this and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> food.  This new behaviour now with what I presume is the result of a bee
> sting, from the evidence, is only the latest to add to the catalogue.

   Hi Laura,
     I read your other post about the cortisone injections. Kim gets
itchy and scratches her face and sometimes she gets a swollen bottom
lip (Eos. granuloma) . The vets gives her an Depo Medrone V injection
and it clears up.
I don't understand why your vet think that scratching her face is
psychological.  If she is scratching her face, she's probably itchy.
The most commonist cause of scratching in cats is insect bites such as
fleas.  It's the saliva in the flea bite that causes the reaction and
it can take only one bite to cause a severe reaction. She hid under
the bed and was lethergic , this can happen when a cat has had a shock
but I wonder if it was an allergic reaction to the bee sting.

I'm glad to hear she is overcoming her fear of going outside.  How
does she get on with the other cats and her daughter? I'd be
interested to know if her daughter has the same personality as her.
Alison:)
Reply to this Message
LC - 16 Jul 2005 12:39 GMT
Alison, thank you for your thoughts and the info.....you could well be right
with the allergic reaction to the beesting.    I will mull this over...I
guess we never really will know what happened this time because I did not
want to take the terrified little scrap out of the house to the vet to freak
her out any further but my money is on beesting.  Every day now she makes
more progress, although right now she is fast alseep - she went out last
night at 8:30pm, but would not come in until 6am.  I am exhausted as I woke
up and went out to look for her at 1am, 2am, 4am and finally 6am when she
stretched up as tall as she could on two paws and practically made love to
my kitchen door in an effort to get it to open, in the cutest "I'm starving"
display I have ever seen from her.  Very loud erps when the fridge door
opened.   I think that is her longest stint ever outdoors without food, she
normally snacks every couple of hours, not a big eater in one sitting.

Getting on with other cats
That's very simple.  She absolutely HATES them with a vengeance, apart from
her daughter.  She plays with her daughter and it is as if our cat 'owns'
the territory of both our house and the house next door where her daughter
lives, and gives her daughter protection.  She will happily chase away ANY
Tom cat, despite that she is actually a very small girl cat and normally
toms will not attack females, sis leaves no doubt - this is mine - paws off.
We leave her at a country cattery when we go away for a week or two, and the
man there always jokes when we return....one thing is for certain, she
really doesn't like other cats.....i.e. no cat particularly likes other
cats, except perhaps two siblings raised together, but she is rather extreme
in this regard.   He has diff. cats in and out of there every week but she
stands out in this matter.  Once, as we were leaving her off, she even went
up to the wire mesh divide between their little gardens, and she punched
another cat in the face who was admiring her as a new arrival - I was so
embarrassed.    After her last visit earlier this year something
changed.....it is like she finally became a little more used to having other
cats around....she no longer arches her back into a triangle if another cat
so much as dares to put a paw within 3 houses of our garden, used to launch
war cries and demand to be let out instantly to deal with the 'intruder'.
Now can even continue eating, while simply keeping a close eye that they do
not enter sacred territory (her garden).   Seems to be getting a little more
mature in that regard, but hatred with a passion of other cats before.
Very, very upsetting to have them come around her area.

Personality
As for personality comparisons with her daughter, they are nothing at all
like each other.   My cat's name is sister, I will call her daughter 'Apple'
here, as 'Apple' is not my cat.  Sister is very gentle and friendly, Apple
tries to be friendly but she bites and scrapes if you pet her despite that
she wanted and invited you to pet her, even put her claws right through my
husband's fingers and out the other side (ouch !!!) some years ago, when she
took a fright mid-petting.   Our 80 year old neighbours call Sister "the
good cat" and Apple "the bad cat", so that is an independent person's views
of the two personalities who visit them from time to time.  Sis is
super-intelligent, Apple is not.  I guess this means that sis knows how to
ingratiate herself better with people - she plays a blinder with my parents
anyways...and she succeeded to get the people next door to shelter her when
she was pregnant and then for us to take her when she wanted to leave home.
Sister lived on the streets while pregnant before she found the house next
door as a shelter to give birth, Apple (one of four of her kittens) was born
in the house next door where she now lives as an only cat for the past 5
years.   Sister is a fantastic little hunter, but Apple is useless, despite
all the lessons that Sister gave her as we watched quietly from an upstairs
window.  Sister left home to live here with us, several months after her
kittens were born, Apple tried to follow her mom but Sister does not allow
her in the house, only in the garden.   Sister has all the signs of chronic
herpes, Apple, fortunately, has none.  (Sister is kept indoors and babysat
when she flares up with this, despite this making her depressed to be stuck
indoors.)  Sister had pneumonia and almost died shortly after giving birth
to the kittens (probably when the chronic herpes developed).   Apple appears
to have had more behavioural problems in settling with her family i.e.
relieving herself on their carpet, whereas we have never had any such
problem with Sister....we can even take her kitty litter to my parent's
house when we visit and she accepts that is where the kitty litter is in
their house, so she is quite adaptable in that respect.)   With the
scratching of her eyes, if sister has obvious symptoms, such as when you can
see odema in her eye, i.e. genuine itchiness which I treat with eyedrops
which contain antibiotic etc, I can tell her to stop scratching until the
cows come home, but she will not  - she is genuinely itchy.    However, 99
times out of 100, when there are no such symptoms present and I tell her to
stop scratching her eyes, with a simple kissing noise, she will stop
scratching immediately.    (I have told more about behaviour than
personality because I do not know so much about the personality of the cat
next door - I try to avoid the cat as much as possible to be honest, as
Sister used to get jealous if we gave it attention and she does not want it
to come into our house, so I don't let it in any more.  It is jealous of
Sister, it wants to be her and it wants to live in her home, it is like
having something stalk us constantly for access.)  Their looks are also
different, Sister is pure black, every bit of her, her daughter is a tabby.
Any good ?

Laura

> > This poor little thing has had a litany of tests over the years, she
> > definitely has allergies, she has had every treatement to rule out
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> interested to know if her daughter has the same personality as her.
>  Alison:)
Reply to this Message
Alison - 16 Jul 2005 21:34 GMT
Hi Laura,
  Sounds like sister had a bad start in life but you have more than
made up for that.:)
My cat had a bad start too.  She was a stray and she is also
aggressive to other cats and chases
them out of the garden.
Sister and Apple sound very different. I just wondered if the
daughter was like her mother
but obviously not so.
Do you think you will still go ahead and give her Prozac? To be
honest if she is getting over the shock
of what ever scared her, I don't think she would need it.
Alison

> Alison, thank you for your thoughts and the info.....you could well be right
> with the allergic reaction to the beesting.    I will mull this over...I
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
>
> Laura
Reply to this Message
LC - 17 Jul 2005 10:20 GMT
Alison, I am smiling at the thought of your cat chasing away bigger cats :)
I think it is because once they have found a home that suits them very well,
they are literally prepared to defend it to the death if necessary - they
are not going to surrender it to any comers.   Then the other cats see a
determined little hopping mad thing coming at them, and scarper rather than
take a chance.   I bet you have a fantastic relationship with your cat.

No, I will definitely not give her that Prozac - she has made all this
wonderful progress without it.     I gave her catnip the first few evenings
that she went out which someone suggested on here was a hallucinogenic and I
will use any tool I can that does not seem to have risks attached.   Prozac
was when I was desperate and before she got the courage to do the morning
stints and it was breaking my heart to see her so distressed, wanting out
but not able to face it at the last second.  Now she has voluntary morning
and evening stints, and is settling well during the 'forced' afternoon sun
stints.....She managed an hour yesterday and settled very well - even took a
few strolls down to the end of the back garden and back again.   (V. brave
as lots of trees and buzzy things down there.)   So, the Prozac will remain
locked away firmly - she doesn't need the added, very real, problems that
taking it may bring.

Thanks so much Alison for everything !

Laura

> Hi Laura,
>    Sounds like sister had a bad start in life but you have more than
[quoted text clipped - 171 lines]
> >
> > Laura
Reply to this Message
Mary - 17 Jul 2005 16:33 GMT
> Alison, I am smiling at the thought of your cat chasing away bigger cats
:)
> I think it is because once they have found a home that suits them very well,
> they are literally prepared to defend it to the death if necessary - they
> are not going to surrender it to any comers.

Actually it is nothing so romantic. Even if they live in the worst dump
imaginable, or are kept outside so that they are forced to defend
themselves as they are at Alisons, cats are territorial and so will
defend whatever they think is their territory.
Reply to this Message
Trish - 17 Jul 2005 16:57 GMT
> > Alison, I am smiling at the thought of your cat chasing away bigger cats
> :)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> themselves as they are at Alisons, cats are territorial and so will
> defend whatever they think is their territory.

That's very true, cats moreso than any other animal.  Once they stake claim
to a place they will defend it to their death.

You may find this book interesting by Ashley Montaqu "Nature of Human
Aggression" It discusses the fight or flight syndrome and references varies
animals to support or disprove theories.
Reply to this Message
Alison - 17 Jul 2005 18:03 GMT
> ">
> That's very true, cats moreso than any other animal.  Once they stake claim
> to a place they will defend it to their death.>>>

That's not actually correct.  Cats are very territorial and will
defend their home range but if  an aggressor is too strong and
persistant  then they will leave the area and move on.(flight) The
name of the game is survival: a cat need its territory to survive but
there's no point in fighting if it's going to end up badly hurt or
dead.

> You may find this book interesting by Ashley Montaqu "Nature of Human
> Aggression" It discusses the fight or flight syndrome and references varies
> animals to support or disprove theories.>>.

That's sounds a very interesting book. :)  I'll have a look on
Amazon. Did he give the references he used to support his theory re
cats ?
     Alison
Reply to this Message
Trish - 17 Jul 2005 20:28 GMT
> > ">
> > That's very true, cats moreso than any other animal.  Once they
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> cats ?
>       Alison

If I remember correctly he did, its been a few years since I've read the
book.  I wrote a presentation on the book for one of my human evolution
courses in university.  It's easy reading, however it was written in the
60's and as times change so do theories.
Reply to this Message
Alison - 17 Jul 2005 22:22 GMT
> >> >  That's sounds a very interesting book. :)  I'll have a look on
> > Amazon. Did he give the references he used to support his theory re
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> courses in university.  It's easy reading, however it was written in the
> 60's and as times change so do theories.>>.

 I have to say I'm impressed. Did you enjoy the course? I had a quick
look on the internet and his theory is
that aggression is not a natural human drive , a sort of nature
verses nurture and enviroment ?
   Knowledge about  cat behaviour  has come on leaps and bounds since
the time he wrote the book but
its true that cats are territorial and more than some other species.
There's also Freeze and Faff about (fiddle about) along side Flight
and Fight ( The fours F's ).

Did you have to read Desmond Morris's The Human Ape on your course?
He also wrote Cat Watching
which was light weight but I remember The Human Ape took the world by
storm, so to speak.

It's interesting that you (one)compare humans to animals when studying
humans. On animal behaviour courses you
compare animals to humans <G>  Some advance courses you have to study
Thorndykes and BF Skinners works
and compare breed specific behaviour to Maslows ladder and whether
they can achieve self actualisation in a home enviroment .
Alison
Reply to this Message
Trish - 17 Jul 2005 22:58 GMT
> > >> >  That's sounds a very interesting book. :)  I'll have a look on
> > > Amazon. Did he give the references he used to support his theory
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>  that aggression is not a natural human drive , a sort of nature
> verses nurture and enviroment ?

The course was possibly the hardest one I had taken in my degree but I
enjoyed it immensely, not only becuase of the material it covered but  the
format of the course was challenging.  There were 9 presentations  for the
semester,  I learned quite a bit about myself during those presentations.
One important thing was time management.  The other was how to write to
relay your message and have it get heard.  There was alot of competition in
the course as we were graded on the negative scale.

I remember in that particular presentation  relating how some behaviourist
described football amongst men as an endorphin releasing sport and that as
these endorphins were released during the game it enhanced male sexuality.
They then went so far as to say that the congratulatory hugs and slaps were
opportunity to release this sexuality.  Of course all the manly men :) in
the class took great offense to this and claimed I was labelling football as
a sport for closet homossexuals.  I did fnd this quite humourous and laughed
for weeks over it.  Interestingly, I received an A, not all contributed to
the presentation, the Prof was impressed with the discussion that came out
of the presentation.

Many of my other courses were focused on osteology and palaeopathology,
which were very interesting as well.

>     Knowledge about  cat behaviour  has come on leaps and bounds since
> the time he wrote the book but
> its true that cats are territorial and more than some other species.
>  There's also Freeze and Faff about (fiddle about) along side Flight
> and Fight ( The fours F's ).

I think I'm going to read the book again, but I beleive its very hard to
find, I'll have to dig through my uni boxes and find it.

>  Did you have to read Desmond Morris's The Human Ape on your course?
> He also wrote Cat Watching
> which was light weight but I remember The Human Ape took the world by
> storm, so to speak.

I don't recall ever reading it, I remember in my first few yers of Uni
readng excerpts in other texts from it.  At the time most of our references
were regarding Lucy and Neanderthals.  In my cultural classes we focused
primarily on the bushmen, such as the !Kung.  When the movie came out The
Gods Must be Crazy, we all had a few good laughs.

> It's interesting that you (one)compare humans to animals when studying
> humans. On animal behaviour courses you
>  compare animals to humans <G>  Some advance courses you have to study
> Thorndykes and BF Skinners works
> and compare breed specific behaviour to Maslows ladder and whether
> they can achieve self actualisation in a home enviroment .

A few years after I had left university I worked in behavioural psychology
with animals, and you're right, it sort of turned the tables.  I was mostly
concentrating on the physioligal side of the study and less on the
behavioural.  One of the areas I was responsible for was in seals they have
what's called a dive technique, the used it when threatened and they are
able to slow their metabolism down so they appear to have no pulse or
heartrate, they can hold this position for up to 6 hours.  We were comparing
this to children who had died of SIDS, and trying to come up with some
theory as to what is it that allows seals to do this but not humans.
Unfortunately, my boss died before this study was completed and the new boss
disolved the study.  It was really sad because we were actually getting
somewhere and we were working with a teaching university out of BC that was
also studying SIDS.

>  Alison
Reply to this Message
Alison - 18 Jul 2005 14:07 GMT
> > A few years after I had left university I worked in behavioural
psychology
> with animals, and you're right, it sort of turned the tables.  I was mostly
> concentrating on the physioligal side of the study and less on the
> behavioural.>>>

I'm envious:) I'd loved to go to uni to study  Animal behaviour but
apart from my age
being against me , I don't think I could manage the chemistry etc  in
the physiology part.:(
It's the foundation of animal behaviour and if you don't have a
thorough understanding of it ,
it will hold you back in comparative behaviour and ethology.
I'm just trying to get my head round Karen Overall's Paradigms for
pharmacologic use  as a
treatment component in feline behaviour medicines and I'm losing the
battle , TCAs ,
flatten T waves , prolonged Qts .. Gulp !

>>  One of the areas I was responsible for was in seals they have
> what's called a dive technique, the used it when threatened and they are
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> somewhere and we were working with a teaching university out of BC that was
> also studying SIDS.>>

That's a double whammy , the death of your boss and the loss of the
study;(
Perhaps it was to do with funding. Did any one else take up the
study?  I think Castellini
first mooted the idea  circa 1990.
Cot deaths have been in the news in the UK recently , I dont know if
you followed it, about
Sir Roy Meadows. He was an expert witness at trials of mothers who had
more than one child
die from SIDs.
Alison
Reply to this Message
Trish - 18 Jul 2005 23:14 GMT
>  I'm envious:) I'd loved to go to uni to study  Animal behaviour but
> apart from my age
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> battle , TCAs ,
>  flatten T waves , prolonged Qts .. Gulp !

Luckily, I didn't have to study it, the project was more interested in my
knowledge of skeletal remains and prior to this I had collected a large
skeletal database of sea mammals.  I spent my mornings and nights before
work searching the ocean banks for washed up animals, then removed the
layers of skin and blubber to access the skeleton.  I purchased net bags
from the Fisheries Department and would put the bones in them, then hide
them in crevices along the shore line so nature's critters in the water
would polish them up for me.  It was a lot of hard work but I ended up with
a huge collection which I donated to the university lab.  My friend and I
started to write a book of camparisons between skeletal remains of various
seal populations, but we've put it to the side.  Maybe now is a good time to
start it again.  Perhaps after I finish the project I'm currently working on
I'll get back to it.

This is a cute story, you'd probably like.  We had 3 adult female harp seals
and they became pregnant, I was longing to watch one give birth but I missed
it each time.  The following year one became pregnant again and this time I
vowed to not miss it so I hooked up a few video cameras and placed them on
the deck in various locations, and stayed there each night til midnight
hoping she'd pup.  One morning I came to work early becuase someone needed
to borrow my car and they dropped me off.  I went around the back of the
compound and climbed up the deck to see Florence laying on her back in a not
too pleasant mood.  So I knelt beside her and was talking to her when
suddenly right before my eyes she pupped.  It was amazing! I'll never forget
it for as long as I live.  My boss was in the hosptial at the time and we
knew she only had a few weeks to live so I ran down after the whole birthing
was completed, pup was cleaned etc, and called her room, she was so excited.
Then I called our vet and he came out to make sure Florence was ok.  LOL I'm
smiling here thinking of that day.

>  That's a double whammy , the death of your boss and the loss of the
> study;(
>  Perhaps it was to do with funding. Did any one else take up the
> study?

The guy who took over the study was a bird guy so he didn't know what to do
and we lost the funding basically, but I had quit by then because the study
was changing direction and morally I couldn't be a part of it.  Some of the
seals have since been flown to a zoo in the Netherlands.  Here's a link if
you'd like to take a look.
http://www.mun.ca/univrel/news/index.php?includefile=showitem.php&id=531.
The last I heard is that they are more of an attraction now and behaviour
studies are carried out by graduate students.

I think Castellini
>  first mooted the idea  circa 1990.
>  Cot deaths have been in the news in the UK recently , I dont know if
> you followed it, about
> Sir Roy Meadows. He was an expert witness at trials of mothers who had
> more than one child
> die from SIDs.

I met Castellini when he came to visit our compound and to give a talk at
the university.  As for Sir Roy Meadows, I haven't heard of him but I'll
look him up and read about it. Thanks.

>  Alison
Reply to this Message
Alison - 19 Jul 2005 13:10 GMT
> "Alison" <Alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> start it again.  Perhaps after I finish the project I'm currently working on
> I'll get back to it.>>.

Yes , get cracking !;) It would be a shame to let all that good work
go to waste.

> This is a cute story, you'd probably like.  We had 3 adult female
harp seals
> and they became pregnant, I was longing to watch one give birth but I missed
> it each time.  The following year one became pregnant again and this time I
> vowed to not miss it so I hooked up a few video cameras and placed them on
> the deck in various locations, and stayed there each night til midnight
> hoping she'd pup.  .  LOL I'm
> smiling here thinking of that day.>>

   ( Just snipped a bit) That's a heart warming story. Once in
Scotland on holiday , we went ton a boat to seal island but the sea
was trrough abd we couldn't land but watch from the boat, Fascinating,
I always meant to go whale watching in Canada but never got round to
it .

> The guy who took over the study was a bird guy so he didn't know what to do
> and we lost the funding basically, but I had quit by then because the study
> was changing direction and morally I couldn't be a part of it.  Some of the
> seals have since been flown to a zoo in the Netherlands.  Here's a link if
> you'd like to take a look.

http://www.mun.ca/univrel/news/index.php?includefile=showitem.php&id=531.

> The last I heard is that they are more of an attraction now and
behaviour
> studies are carried out by graduate students.>>.

Thx, I'll check that out :) I'm glad they're ok .

> > I met Castellini when he came to visit our compound and to give a
talk at
> the university.  As for Sir Roy Meadows, I haven't heard of him but I'll
> look him up and read about it. Thanks.>>.

Roy Meadows was an alleged expert on cot deaths but he gave evidence
at the trials of women accused of murdering their babies. he said the
odds of two babies dying from SIDS from the same family was one in so
many million but that was nor correct .
There's a bit about it here
  http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Professor_Sir_Roy_Meadows.htm

Alison
Reply to this Message
Trish - 23 Jul 2005 06:07 GMT
> > "Alison" <Alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I always meant to go whale watching in Canada but never got round to
> it .

I have a few very nice pics of the seals we had.  If you're interested I can
e-mail them.

> Roy Meadows was an alleged expert on cot deaths but he gave evidence
> at the trials of women accused of murdering their babies. he said the
> odds of two babies dying from SIDS from the same family was one in so
> many million but that was nor correct .
>  There's a bit about it here
>    http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Professor_Sir_Roy_Meadows.htm

Thanks :)
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