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L-Lysine dose?

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Laurie - 05 Jul 2005 19:20 GMT
Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their eyes
glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with fleas, and
practically bald from ringworm.  They're on a round of "Clavamox" after
finishing a round of "Amoxi-drops".  They're also being dipped once a
week with Sulfer and Lime, and they had some triple antibiotic eye
ointment which they finished off.  The kittens no longer have green goo
in their eyes, but their eyes run and run all day with clear fluid.
People keep telling me to give them some L-Lysine but nobody seems to
know the dose.  The vets won't tell me because it's not a prescription
and they don't sell it.  I've got some here (it's a white powder) that a
woman from the SPCA gave me but all she said is to sprinkle some in
their food.  But how much?  How often?  And for how long?  Does anyone
have experience with L-Lysine and can anyone tell me how to use it, or
if I should use it?  I've got a 4 year old cat who has a lifelong
chronic runny eye from when she had a nasty nasty cold as an underage
orphan, and I don't want the same thing to happen to these 2 babies.
She's been to 2 eye doctors and had water run through her tear duct and
it wasn't blocked so all the vets can tell me is it's a permanent virus
living in her eye.  Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,
~ Laurie ~
Mary - 05 Jul 2005 19:51 GMT
> Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their eyes
> glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with fleas, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> People keep telling me to give them some L-Lysine but nobody seems to
> know the dose.

Laurie--it look like 250 mgs might be right. See the link below:

http://www.vetinfo.com/cherpes.html

http://www.paws-and-effect.com/pawsandeffect96.html

For many more sites:

http://tinyurl.com/dysr7

Good luck with the babies!
Kalyahna - 05 Jul 2005 20:06 GMT
> > Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their eyes
> > glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with fleas, and
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Good luck with the babies!

It's downright saintly of you to take on those kittens! Most people would be
put off by URI - the vast majority of the rest would refuse because of the
ringworm.

We use 250mgs twice a day (per kitten) mixed into canned food (and 500mgs
twice a day for adults). You can buy big things of it in your local grocery
story in the vitamins and minerals section. Pick up a pill cutter and a pill
crusher and you're good to go. We've certainly had our share of cats with
chronic runny eyes, and the lysine really has had a positive effect on it!
Steve G - 05 Jul 2005 20:34 GMT
> People keep telling me to give them some L-Lysine but nobody seems to
> know the dose.  The vets won't tell me because it's not a prescription
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> have experience with L-Lysine and can anyone tell me how to use it, or
> if I should use it?

L-lysine is an amino acid, and it's not really possible to overdose
your cat on it. 500mg is usual, 1x/day would work, and how long's a
piece of string (I don't know of any problems with persistent use of
L-lysine). How? Get gelcaps (e.g., from health food store), open and
sprinkle / mix into food.

It's a usual supplement for cats who suffer from herpes, and AFAIK,
there's no harm in trying it for a mystery eye virus.

S.
Mary - 05 Jul 2005 20:34 GMT
> > People keep telling me to give them some L-Lysine but nobody seems to
> > know the dose.  The vets won't tell me because it's not a prescription
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> S.

500 is usual for a full-grown cat. 250 is the recommended dosage for
kittens.
Steve G - 05 Jul 2005 21:16 GMT
(...)

> 500 is usual for a full-grown cat. 250 is the recommended dosage for
> kittens.

Angels dancing on the head of a pin. As I said, it's not practically
possible to overdose on L-lysine, and there's no reason to give 250mg
as opposed to 500mg in a kitten. Also, sites do not universally agree
that 250mg is the 'kitten dose' and 500mg the 'cat dose' (many sites
makes no distinction), and any recommendations are purely empirical
given that this is not a 'standard' vet treatment. People on this group
(e.g., Megan -
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.anecdotes/msg/cf067402b30d2f96
?hl=en
)
have also recommended 500mg in kittens, presumably based on personal
experience. Other places on the WWWonderful suggest 1000mg as useful
(e.g.,
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=ca87e5aa67823cb66d05ffc08f2791
d5&p=716991#post716991
).
YMMV.

S.
sriddles@aol.com - 05 Jul 2005 21:22 GMT
> (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> S.

Not to complicate the issue further, but I just had a discussion about
this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
vet-grade lysine that's specifically for cats. He got one out, since he
wasn't sure and I asked him how much. The tube said 250 mg. He also
said you don't have to buy the veterinary stuff, that the regular
lysine from the health food store or whatever is just as good and
cheaper.

Sherry
Steve G - 05 Jul 2005 21:28 GMT
sridd...@aol.com wrote:
(...)

> Not to complicate the issue further,

This is a bit like saying 'I'm not a racist, but...'...!

> but I just had a discussion about
> this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
> vet-grade lysine that's specifically for cats.

So, that's 8 times the price for half as much? (How does it differ from
human-grade L-lysine, I wonder?)

> He got one out, since he
> wasn't sure and I asked him how much. The tube said 250 mg. He also
> said you don't have to buy the veterinary stuff, that the regular
> lysine from the health food store or whatever is just as good and
> cheaper.

Indeed. It's cheap. I think 500mg may be a popular dosage because
that's the common gelcap size (for human use). Whatever works.

S.
Phil P. - 05 Jul 2005 21:55 GMT
> Not to complicate the issue further, but I just had a discussion about
> this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Sherry

I think you mean Viralys- 1.25 ml (1/4 teaspoon) contains 250 mg of
L-Lysine.  A 5 oz tube cost about $7-8.

Phil
sriddles@aol.com - 05 Jul 2005 22:18 GMT
> > Not to complicate the issue further, but I just had a discussion about
> > this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Phil

Yes, I think that was it. Thanks, Phil. When I first started  Boots, it
was recommended to me 500 mg for the first few doses and 250 mg day
after that. I always tried to find the capsules, to put in her food. I
can absolutely testify that it *does* work on some cats. Boots has not
had an outbreak at all in over a year. That's a record for her.
Another question re: herpes though. Before, when she would get so
congested with that stuff, I'd take her to the vet and she'd nearly
always have a yeast infection in one or both her ears. Is that a herpes
thing too?

Sherry
Phil P. - 06 Jul 2005 09:39 GMT
> > > Not to complicate the issue further, but I just had a discussion about
> > > this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> always have a yeast infection in one or both her ears. Is that a herpes
> thing too?

Could be. The auditory (eustachian) tube connects the nasopharynx to the
middle ear- so it is possible for a cat develop otitis media/externa by this
route as a sequela to an upper respiratory disease.

Does Boots cough or gag when you put liquid in her ear? If she does, she
could have a ruptured or perferated eardrum-- the liquid is flowing through
the ruptured eardrum, to the middle ear, and through the eustachian tube and
into the pharynx.

Phil
Wendy - 06 Jul 2005 12:28 GMT
>> > Not to complicate the issue further, but I just had a discussion about
>> > this very thing with the vet re: a cat w/herpes. He sells this tube of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Sherry

What do you do to treat a yeast infection in the ear?

W
Mary - 05 Jul 2005 21:23 GMT
> (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> given that this is not a 'standard' vet treatment. People on this group
> (e.g., Megan -

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.anecdotes/msg/cf067402b30d2f96
?hl=en
)
> have also recommended 500mg in kittens, presumably based on personal
> experience. Other places on the WWWonderful suggest 1000mg as useful
> (e.g.,

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=ca87e5aa67823cb66d05ffc08f2791
d5&p=716991#post716991
).
> YMMV.

I don't know enough about amino acids (if they can all be lumped together)
to know what the effects of "too much" may be. Do we know everything about
them? About this particular one? I would err on the side of caution with
little
baby cats. But I defer to your expertise.
Steve G - 05 Jul 2005 21:57 GMT
(...)

> I don't know enough about amino acids (if they can all be lumped together)

Well, they have different functions, and they can't entirely be lumped
together in terms of safety (although all may be considered 'safe' in
general terms).

> to know what the effects of "too much" may be. Do we know everything about
> them? About this particular one? I would err on the side of caution with
> little baby cats. But I defer to your expertise.

Caveat: Pretty much all I know about aminos is in the context of humans
and amino supplementation for sport and related stuff (e.g.,
http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html). People are very cavalier
in their supplementation doses, taking many grammes of some aminos,
with (possible) benefit and (rarely) problems. Problems AFAIK seem to
be mostly due to impurities in poor examples of such supplements -
metals AFAIK. Also, GI issues are possible with large doses.

I have not heard of any reports in any context of L-lysine toxicity per
se; I have heard of problems with some other aminos, but rarely. There
will be the usual issues from feeding (excess) protein, but given that
cats are designed to deal with lots of protein and bits thereof, I
would expect problems to be less likely in cats than in humans.

Some more info (in humans) here:
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lly_0166.shtml

There's also a paper I've not read (Flodin 1997; J Am Coll Nutr 16:
7-21) all about L-lysine, which states in the asbtract 'Data on
toxicity are reviewed and recommendations made regarding safety of
chronic dosage levels.'. If I remember when I'm next in the library
I'll grab a copy. I expect this paper will not note any cases of
toxicity, either.

But: Being cautious is good - there's certainly no harm in starting at
250mg and then increasing the dose if no effect is seen - but there's
no evidence for 250mg as a kitten dose, or whatever, nor any evidence
that worrying over the dose is time well spent. (Unless you decided to
feed 83g or somesuch).

S.
Phil P. - 06 Jul 2005 09:53 GMT
> I don't know enough about amino acids (if they can all be lumped together)
> to know what the effects of "too much" may be. Do we know everything about
> them? About this particular one? I would err on the side of caution with
> little
> baby cats. But I defer to your expertise.

Too much lysine can affect another amino acid Arginine because it competes
with arginine- IOW, increasing lysine decreases arginine (which the
herpesvirus needs to replicate). Arginine detoxifies ammonia in the cat's
kidneys- low arginine levels can lead to severe hyperammonemia, coma and
death.  Arginine is also important for the heart and pancreatic function and
intestinal health.

Phil
Phil P. - 05 Jul 2005 21:49 GMT
> Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their eyes
> glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with fleas, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> have experience with L-Lysine and can anyone tell me how to use it, or
> if I should use it?

250 mg. twice a day - probably for life.  I recommend buying the 500 mg
capsules. Pull the capsule apart and mix half the contents of the capsule in
the food.  Put the capsule back together and use the remaining half in the
evening feeding.  Lysine also comes in a gel and a powder.

Mixing meds in a cat's regular food can cause the cat to develop an aversion
to that food.  So, you might want to mix the med in a treat or 5 ml of tuna
water.

I've got a 4 year old cat who has a lifelong
> chronic runny eye from when she had a nasty nasty cold as an underage
> orphan, and I don't want the same thing to happen to these 2 babies.
> She's been to 2 eye doctors and had water run through her tear duct and
> it wasn't blocked so all the vets can tell me is it's a permanent virus
> living in her eye.

In some cats- usually cats with long-standing FHV infections- permanent
damage is caused to the nasal mucosa and turbinates which leaves the cats
prone to chronic UR bacterial infections.  The lysine will inhibit viral
replication if the virus is present which should help suppress symptoms.

Good luck,

Phil
Cheryl - 06 Jul 2005 00:35 GMT
> Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their
> eyes glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> all the vets can tell me is it's a permanent virus living in her
> eye.  Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks, ~ Laurie ~

I've had three now that had pretty bad cases of feline herpes and
they've been helped with the lysine. The first was Bonnie (former
feral) and I had to spoonfeed her because she was too congested to
want to eat on her own.  250mg 2x per day mixed in canned kitten
food mixed with all-meat baby food for some additional stinkiness.
More recently it's been a pair of littermates that I adopted in
November. I still have to give them lysine off and on. I started
them off with 250mg 2x per day in canned food, or sometimes just
babyfood when they didn't want to eat much. The smaller the amount
of food it's put in, the better. I've also found that the lysine in
capsules is tasteless, where the pill form that you have to crush
is bitter. If you have a Safeway nearby, look for the Twin Labs
brand in 500mg capsules. If they'll take it in the food, just keep
giving it to them indefinitely. Good luck.

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Kathi S. - 08 Jul 2005 11:22 GMT
>Hello all, I've got some stray kittens who came to me with their eyes
>glued shut with green mucus, runny noses, covered with fleas, and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>living in her eye.  Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,
>~ Laurie ~

Hi Laurie,

I have been using Lysine for 3 neighborhood litters of kittens over
the past year. All three litters showed up with what you describe.
Along with other treatment (a homemade solution for their eyes) I gave
them each 500mg per day and it worked wonderfully. Their eyes were so
horrid at first that they were constantly glued shut and swollen and
full of pus. At about 1 year old now their eyes are completely free of
problems.

Kathi
 
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