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Cat tuned mean...what do I do

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grasshopper - 21 Jun 2005 18:21 GMT
HERE'S AN UPDATE.............

I took Willow into the Vet and the vet stated medicine will not hel
Willow and said to put her down.  We havn't done so yet and will get
second opinion but we are very sad to hear of this.  We spoke with th
second vet on the phone and he stated the same..yet wanted to se
Willow before he made a final decision.  They stated Willow will no
get better with medicine, she wil;l strill be nasty yet a bit mor
calm.  They recommended valium

--
grasshopper
Candace - 21 Jun 2005 20:24 GMT
> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> grasshopper

That's awful.  I guess I don't remember your original post.  How mean
is she?  I wouldn't want to put her down either.  What about clomicalm?
There is a woman, Cheryl, on this newsgroup, who has her cat, who was
very aggressive to her other cats and also to her, on a drug called
clomicalm and it has helped tremendously.  Many vets are not familiar
with its usage in cats as it is generally prescribed for dogs but it is
working wonderfully.  Please ask your vet about it.  At this point,
what is there to lose if they are recommending euthanasia?  It took a
little tweaking to get the dosage right for her cat as he was very
groggy at first but now she has it balanced so that he isn't sleepy and
yet he is no longer aggressive.  Please try this on Willow.  How old is
she and why did she become mean?

Candace
Cheryl - 21 Jun 2005 23:59 GMT
>> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> medicine, she wil;l strill be nasty yet a bit more calm.  They
>> recommended valium.

I agree with Megan in that drugs can't hurt at this point. I
remember your story from a couple of weeks ago - I remember you
said you made an appointment with "Mt. Airy Animal Hospital" - is
this the one that recommended euthanization in this, your latest
update?  Has she had any more incidents where she acted lovable at
all?

Candace mentioned my cat Shamrock who is aggressive (I told you
about him) and indeed, the Clomicalm *is* helping. He still has his
moments, but compared to how it used to be, he's an angel. He's
been on it for 3 months now. The results were pretty instant since
the initial dose he was prescribed was a little too high and he was
too doped up to fight. Tweaking the dose helped a lot and while I
thought I might be able to start weaning him off, I've found out
its too soon for that after the first few lower doses. He'll stay
on it for now.

Print this out and take it to a NEW vet:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Ch­ronicle/02/2.28.02/anxious_cat­s.html

I never found out if they ever went through with the study, or if
there were results available.

I hope that something can help poor Willow and I can tell you care
about her, otherwise you wouldn't be back here telling us about her
again!!  Please, if you can, please find another vet who is open
minded about drug therapy! Best of luck and purrs from my gang to
you and yours.

>> --
>> grasshopper
>
> That's awful.  I guess I don't remember your original post.

This isn't the first in the earlier thread a couple of weeks ago,
but it has some additional info based on feedback. (Willow is
declawed, so while it may be pertinent, Willow was adopted that
way):

http://tinyurl.com/b6fmu
or
<http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/811ae9d16c7188
b7?hl=en>

Another update that had some good info about this cat:

http://tinyurl.com/bx324
or
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+beh
av/msg/a99b38d94a962914?hl=en>

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

zuzu22@webtv.net - 21 Jun 2005 21:08 GMT
>I took Willow into the Vet and the vet
>stated medicine will not help Willow and
>said to put her down.

What the vets told you is pure, unadulterated bullshit! I've seen
medication work miracles with extremely aggressive cats (including two
I've had in the past), and for them to state flat out that meds won't
work shows their complete and utter ignorance of protocols for treating
cat behavior problems. There are many medications that are useful for
eliminating aggression in cats, and if the first one doesn't work there
are plenty of options. Valium is ok, but there is a risk to the liver so
that is something to consider. Prozac, Clomipramine, and Amitriptyline
have all been used successfully to treat feline aggression.

I you don't believe me, call the veterinary school at Tuft's University
and ask for behavior clinic 508-839-5302. Leave a message and they
should be able to call you back within a day. When they do, ask them
about treating feline aggression with medication. This particular clinic
is world renowned and has a high rate of success in treating all kinds
of issues. I expect that they will be shocked to hear the garbage your
vet is trying to put over on you.

There is also a comprehensive article about treating aggression that in
part states "For some cases, the addition of psychotropic medication can
be helpful in resolving the aggression. The drugs that are presently
being used are not approved for use in cats and therefore are extra
label drug usage. Prior to use, all animals should have physical
examinations, laboratory screenings for liver and kidney function and in
some cases, electrocardiograms. Signed consent and release forms are
advisable. Owners should be informed of potential side effects and plan
to be home to monitor their pet for the first 1 - 2 days of
treatment. Several classes of drugs have been used to treat aggression
in cats. In the past, Benzodiazepines especially Valium® (1 - 2
mg. every 12 hours) had been shown to be useful in aggression, but care
needs to be taken to watch for potential hepatotoxic reactions [17].
Also, cats on benzodiazepines could disinhibit and the aggression
increase. Recently reports of hepatotoxic reactions have surfaced and
this drug should be used with extreme caution [18]. Amitriptyline HCL
(Elavil®) a tricyclic antidepressant has also been used in aggression
in cats. Amitriptyline is a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor and also
inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine. In addition it has
anti-histamine actions and can also interfere with thyroid medications.
The medication must be given daily to be effective and can take
2 - 4 weeks to facilitate a change in behavior. Common side effects
include tachycardia, urinary retention, sedation, G.I.T. upset,
mydriasis and a dry mouth. Because of potential increases in heart rate,
caution should be exercised in patients with cardiac disease and an EKG
prior to use may be prudent. Common dosage is 0.5 - 2.0 mg/kg PO q
12 - 24 hours [15]. Recently, some veterinary behaviorist have used
selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors such as Fluoxetine (Prozac®)
and Paroxetine (Paxil®) to treat aggression in cats. Medication is
generally used for 6 - 12 weeks and if the behaviors have changed
the animal is weaned off the medication by decreasing the dose 25 % a
week while watching for a return of any aggressive indicators such as
growling, hissing or chasing."

 
PLEASE, find another vet. AFAIC, their recommendation only means that
they are without conscience and capable of murder. If you take their
advice you put yourself in that category as well. :-(

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Philip - 22 Jun 2005 00:50 GMT
>> I took Willow into the Vet and the vet
>> stated medicine will not help Willow and
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Megan

Megan ... anything/body can be drugged into submission.  Would you disagree?
Would it be fair to say that if the cause of the agression has not been
found, *then* ... the use of behavior modifying drugs is the easy "fix?"
And for how long and at what costs?
Cheryl - 22 Jun 2005 01:34 GMT
> Megan ... anything/body can be drugged into submission.  Would
> you disagree? Would it be fair to say that if the cause of the
> agression has not been found, *then* ... the use of behavior
> modifying drugs is the easy "fix?" And for how long and at what
> costs?

It could be that the cause of the aggression won't be found until
there is a way to calm down an animal that is just too far gone to
figure out what it is? If ever? I wrote a while back that I'd read
here about drug therapy and wasn't willing to do that because I
didn't believe in it, and figured there was a reason for the
aggression and it would just take some time to find it. Well, that
was 2 years ago (before the new kittens last fall). It was never
found.  I did everything I could to help modify his behavior; from
extra attention, to separation from the others in case they were
getting on his "last nerve".  If humans can have an imbalance that
causes behavioral problems, why is it so far-fetched to think that
you may meet a cat that "isn't wired right"?  

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Christopher C. Stacy - 22 Jun 2005 04:37 GMT
> If humans can have an imbalance that causes behavioral problems,
> why is it so far-fetched to think that you may meet a cat
> that "isn't wired right"?

Maybe the car turned mean because it _was_ "wired".
Maybe the person thought that the cat as just walking
around in front being annoying, but it was actually
reading this newsgroup for a long time...
Philip - 22 Jun 2005 05:15 GMT
>> Megan ... anything/body can be drugged into submission.  Would
>> you disagree? Would it be fair to say that if the cause of the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> causes behavioral problems, why is it so far-fetched to think that
> you may meet a cat that "isn't wired right"?

With all the deliberate inbreeding cats have been subjected to, your
viewpoint could be valid.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 22 Jun 2005 03:40 GMT
>anything/body can be drugged into
>submission.

That's not the point of or the protocol for drug therapy for behavior
issues. I have a cat that suffers from severe anxiety and without
medication she is a basket case.  Once treated with meds she became a
*normal*, happy cat. As to cost, it's not that expensive and is
certainly worth the results. Unlike you, my first concern is for the
welfare of *the cat* and if it takes effort, time, or money that's just
the way it is and I will manage. I take my responsibility for my cats
very seriously.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Philip - 22 Jun 2005 05:15 GMT
>> anything/body can be drugged into
>> submission.
>
> That's not the point of or the protocol for drug therapy for behavior
> issues.
snip
> As to cost, it's not that expensive and is certainly worth the results.
snipped the cheap shot
> Megan

Drugged into submission is the point of all such behavioral intervention.
Doesn't sound politically correct or polite but, that is the bottom line.
Get the *desired* behavior thru pharmaceutical means.
Christopher C. Stacy - 22 Jun 2005 05:43 GMT
> >> anything/body can be drugged into
> >> submission.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Doesn't sound politically correct or polite but, that is the bottom line.
> Get the *desired* behavior thru pharmaceutical means.

People may be missing the point that, ideally, you don't
drug the animal forever.  You get it used to what it feels
like behaving in a way that's closer to what you would like,
and it starts feel that this is normal; then maybe you can
eventually wean it off the drugs or lower the dosage.

Sometimes animals need to stay on the drug forever.
Suzanne - 23 Jun 2005 18:17 GMT
You are truly repulsive.

>>> I took Willow into the Vet and the vet
>>> stated medicine will not help Willow and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>found, *then* ... the use of behavior modifying drugs is the easy "fix?"
>And for how long and at what costs?
Suzanne - 23 Jun 2005 18:19 GMT
Philip is repulsive, I mean....

>You are truly repulsive.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>found, *then* ... the use of behavior modifying drugs is the easy "fix?"
>>And for how long and at what costs?
Philip - 23 Jun 2005 19:14 GMT
>>>> I took Willow into the Vet and the vet
>>>> stated medicine will not help Willow and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You are truly repulsive.

I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear, the way you want to hear it.
Just calling a spade a spade.
Helen - 22 Jun 2005 01:06 GMT
> There is also a comprehensive article about treating aggression that in
> part states "For some cases, the addition of psychotropic medication can
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> week while watching for a return of any aggressive indicators such as
> growling, hissing or chasing."

And the link to that article is:

http://www.ivis.org/advances/Behavior_Houpt/horwitz/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

In case it isn't clear, meds should be used *in addition to* behavioural
modification techniques, not instead of. The article concludes:

"Aggressive behaviors in cats are not only dangerous for humans and other
cats, they endanger the human animal bond. By attention to complete
histories, the use of appropriate behavioral techniques and assessing risk
and danger veterinarians can help cat owners safely live with their pets."

OP, if you can afford it, I'd recommend that you consult a qualified
behaviourist.

HTH

Helen
Cheryl - 22 Jun 2005 01:24 GMT
> And the link to that article is:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> OP, if you can afford it, I'd recommend that you consult a
> qualified behaviourist.

Very good point, Helen. In my case with Shamrock, in the last three
months with him on Clomicalm, I've tried to reinforce new, better
behavior with him when he is in contact with Bonnie by trying to
make it fun and playful. Still using the diversion tactic with the
laser pointer, encourage eating together even when she doesn't want
to come in the kitchen at mealtime when he's in there. I put her
bowl at first just outside the door, then increasingly closer to
his until she will sometimes eat in the same room with him. Doesn't
always work, but sometimes it does. Funny (nice!) thing is that she
always wants to sleep near him when its naptime or nighttime. I
know this doesn't help Dave with Willow, but maybe something to
work with??

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

biggerbadderbarry - 21 Jun 2005 21:46 GMT
> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>
> I took Willow into the Vet and the vet stated medicine will not help
> Willow and said to put her down.

What if there is really nothing wrong with Willow, other than being
mean.

Sure, there is a reason, but if the reason is not medical, then your
going to feel bad about this later.

Unless I have missed something, there is no real diagnosis right, it's
all speculation.

I'd have to have conclusive medical evidence before I moved forward in
this; bad behavior can be corrected. Even extreme bad behavior.
IBen Getiner - 23 Jun 2005 09:29 GMT
> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> grasshopper

Some creatures just cannot be reached. My ex had a cat like this.. a
psycho cat. He might let you pet him today, but tomorrow he'd just bite
the living crap out of you. Gave the lady next door a deadly bacteria.
Almost killed her.
I know I'm getting into the frale a little late here, but if it's just
a case of antisocial behavior, The best thing you could do in my
opinion would be to let him roam free. And you still take care of him,
I mean. Does he still have his claws?

                             IBen
biggerbadderbarry - 23 Jun 2005 13:13 GMT
> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> grasshopper

didnt you say you did not want Willow?

The cat is probably picking up on this.

I remember what you wrote.

Your not telling everything, tell it again, this time, tell the part
where you done something to the cat.
Philip - 23 Jun 2005 16:32 GMT
>> HERE'S AN UPDATE.............
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Your not telling everything, tell it again, this time, tell the part
> where you done something to the cat.

I know you're withholding something until you tell me what I want to hear.
Tell me a story.  ;^)
biggerbadderbarry - 23 Jun 2005 17:25 GMT
> I know you're withholding something until you tell me what I want to hear.
> Tell me a story.  ;^)

lol

I think I'm hearing your right,

it's true, the OP said, "honestly, I don't want the cat"

He claims, he has no clue, as to why this started. Yeah right

The cat is in protest, dude just needs to come clean.
biggerbadderbarry - 23 Jun 2005 17:31 GMT
> I know you're withholding something until you tell me what I want to hear.
> Tell me a story.  ;^)

Thats right, come'on and lie to me

At the risk of being redundant

The original post is deleted, I can't find it on two different news
servers either. but I remember, he said; "We have enough
cats"...something like that, and that he "didn't want it"

Well, Im just not buying it.

I didn't just get off the bus with a watermelon under my arm

This story makes no sense; therefore a lie is on the table.
A big black bald faced lie!

I already know what he's doing. He's playing favorites, he's
antagonizing the cat, and now he wants a green light to put him down.

This is bullshit! He should stop tuanting and trying to get even with
the cat.

I know what Im talking about

Here is the real story.

The cat didn't like the man in the first place. The cat gives him the
cattitude. So...OP'r does little sneakly kaniving sh.t to the cat, and
when the cat finally has enough...it snaps! Now the cat has turned on
the man.
biggerbadderbarry - 23 Jun 2005 22:51 GMT
Yeah that's right, the cats done turned on you now...

mmmhmmmm

I have never in my life seen an animal turn on the master when the
master is sweet to that animal...

they go off in the woods and die when they go insane

YOU HAVE LIED TO ALL OF US

Your going to feel triple bad if you put that cat down.

Theres nothing wrong with the cat, you said yourself you want to get
rid of him....this is just an excuse.
 
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