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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / July 2005Dry Food Good For Teeth and Gum Health?
I feel like my cat should get some dry food for the benefit of teeth and gums. Can I get an Amen? >I feel like my cat should get some dry >food for the benefit of teeth and gums. >Can I get an Amen? No, you may not. I will, however, give you this: http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=doesdryfoodcl eantheteeth Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > I feel like my cat should get some dry food > for the benefit of teeth and gums. > > Can I get an Amen? http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Which_is _reall >> I feel like my cat should get some dry food >> for the benefit of teeth and gums. >> >> Can I get an Amen? > >http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Which_is _reall Phil please spare me from rereading that piece, I read through it and never found a conclusion as to what is best, the title makes you assume that a conclusion will be forthcoming. Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >> I feel like my cat should get some dry food > >> for the benefit of teeth and gums. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > never found a conclusion as to what is best, the title makes you > assume that a conclusion will be forthcoming. The conclusion is obvious. The *slight* dental benefit of dry food does not offset the risks. Look in your cat's mouth. Do you see any first premolars or lower (inferior) first or second premolars? You don't, do you? Do you know why? >The conclusion is obvious. The *slight* dental benefit of dry food does not >offset the risks. Look in your cat's mouth. Do you see any first >premolars or lower (inferior) first or second premolars? You don't, do you? >Do you know why? I'm not good with these brain teasers I don't have enough brains......The breeder I bought from......two vets who I interviewed fo select one for my kitten and two personal friends all said that dry food has always been fine with no health problems relating to food.......my breeder has never fed anything other than dry after a few weeks and also has never had a problem......nothing I have found has been decisive to say either way one is better than the other but testimonials from people I actually know have to weigh heavily on my decision. Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > I'm not good with these brain teasers I don't have enough > brains......The breeder I bought from......two vets who I interviewed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > testimonials from people I actually know have to weigh heavily on my > decision. Look! The lady done said, get a bucket of chicken innards (Gizzards) and let the cat chew on them; you know, stash some around the house for later. What the cat don't chew on, I use for catfish bait! >> I'm not good with these brain teasers I don't have enough >> brains......The breeder I bought from......two vets who I interviewed [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >What the cat don't chew on, I use for catfish bait! How do you get used to the smell though.......I tried shoving most of em under the couch but for some reason they still smell.....I thought there was some saying about "outta sight outta smell" Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >The conclusion is obvious. The *slight* dental benefit of dry food does not > >offset the risks. Look in your cat's mouth. Do you see any first > >premolars or lower (inferior) first or second premolars? You don't, do you? > >Do you know why? nothing I have found > has been decisive to say either way one is better than the other I guess you can't say that anymore: J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50 "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods." > Phil please spare me from rereading that piece, I read through it and > never found a conclusion as to what is best, the title makes you > assume that a conclusion will be forthcoming. > > Brad Laying aside tooth and gum stimulation: In humans, foods with higher water content is better (fruits and veggies). So of course I would be interested in the best food I can feed fluffy, OTH - There's nothing I love better than to rip into a big red apple - this also makes my teeth happy. Do they make cat apples > Do they make cat apples Yep, but they're called chicken gizzards. Provide great exercise for the cat's jaw and teeth. Lauren biggerbadderbarry Wrote: > I feel like my cat should get some dry food > for the benefit of teeth and gums. > > Can I get an Amen? You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. I prevents placque. As an example: My dearest darling Venus and he sister Roberta were cats I got from someone else. She fed both cats we canned food three meals a day. When I took the cats, they had placque o their teeth thicker than their teeth! They both needed an intense denta clean-up under full anasthetic. All twelve of my cats right now ge nothing but dry food, and it sure benefits their teeth. The only sof things they get to eat is a bit of liverwurst or cheese every now an then. When they got their teeth cleaned, Venus almost didn't come ou of the anasthetic afterwards, and I sure don't ever want to go throug such a horrifyingly scaring experience again. So... feed your ca dryfood. Amen. Purrs, Fritti and his gang -- Fritti >biggerbadderbarry Wrote: >> I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Purrs, >Fritti and his gang. You know now heres another case which is hard to argue with yet I have been slammed so many times for feeding dry food.......like I'm to lazy to give em the wet food that I'm doing what I want without caring about the cats but I've heard more testimonials like yours plus friends and associates who swear by dry food.....as far as overall health goes this arguement doesn't appear when talking about dogs only about cats.....go figure thanks for posting... Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > biggerbadderbarry Wrote: > > I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. That's far from the truth. There are only *three* dry diets that have a slight effect on the teeth- but the dental benefits don't offset the systemic risks. "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50). >> biggerbadderbarry Wrote: >> > I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan >1;210(1):46-50). I just wonder sometimes if the whole thing isn't blown way out of proportion, in a case like this when both sides can come up with good arguments I think people should feed what they feel like is the best at least if they have done some research to back it up and let the next guy or gal feed their cats whatever they want. It seems people have this want to shove their ideas down the other persons throat, I don't have any quarrels with someone that wants to feed the opposite as I do its all about a little respect for each other. Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >> biggerbadderbarry Wrote: > >> > I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > proportion, in a case like this when both sides can come up with good > arguments The problem is the dry food camp *can't* come up with a good argument other than economy and convenience- neither of which benefit the cat. The minimal dental benefits of dry food don't offset the risks to the rest of the body. > > >> biggerbadderbarry Wrote: > > >> > I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > than economy and convenience- neither of which benefit the cat. The minimal > dental benefits of dry food don't offset the risks to the rest of the body. What sold me was the huge difference I saw in my cats coats, eyes, and behavior after adding canned food, and Buddha's weight loss after putting her on canned only. I saw results in 2 weeks. >>>>> biggerbadderbarry Wrote: >>>>>> I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > and behavior after adding canned food, and Buddha's weight loss > after putting her on canned only. I saw results in 2 weeks. Sounds like "Atkins for Cats" diet. LOL My 2 cats have both and they're just fine and dandy. > My 2 cats have both and they're just fine and dandy. When I was a kid working at Wendy's after school One lady would order a single all the way, hold the single. (A veggie burger) I always thought it should cost less but it did not. >> > >> biggerbadderbarry Wrote: >> > >> > I feel like my cat should get some dry food [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >and behavior after adding canned food, and Buddha's weight loss >after putting her on canned only. I saw results in 2 weeks. Don't get your undies in a bundle here but are you blaming the dry food for Buddha's weight problems.....does he fill the bowls himself.....?? I have heard people mention the coat that is one thing I would like to look into further with Touhey being a kitten its hard to tell about his coat with that kitten hair.....looks like me when I get up in the morning...... Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" >The problem is the dry food camp *can't* come up with a good argument other >than economy and convenience- neither of which benefit the cat. The minimal >dental benefits of dry food don't offset the risks to the rest of the body. No Phil the problem is there you are trying to shove your ideas down my throat.....I am clear on your feelings like most everyone here is I don't know why you have to stay behind the pulpit. How about this testimonials from people who have fed dry food only and have had happy and healthy cats always.......you can't come up with an arguement to top that one...... I'm sick and tired of your camp constantly harping on convenience is that supposed to shame us into using the slop food kinda funny I make a plea to lets just get along and the first post I read is you with your same ole sh.t......how about this too.....dry food has minimal benefits for the teeth and gums slop food gives ZERO benefits....... How in the hell did cats get along before you started brushing their teeth and singing the praises of wet food? Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......" HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >The problem is the dry food camp *can't* come up with a good argument other > >than economy and convenience- neither of which benefit the cat. The minimal > >dental benefits of dry food don't offset the risks to the rest of the body. > > No Phil the problem is there you are trying to shove your ideas down > my throat..... Actually, I'm trying to educate you about feline nutrition because you're obviously misinformed. No one is forcing you to read my posts. If you don't like what I have to say don't read my posts or make refutable statements about dry food. How about this > testimonials from people who have fed dry food only and have had happy > and healthy cats always.......you can't come up with an arguement to > top that one...... Sure I can. Almost every cat that I know of- including many cats of people *in this group*- that had a urinary tract obstruction, interstitial cystitis, and diabetes all ate primarily dry food. These conditions resolved after the cats were switched over to canned food. In fact, after switching many diabetic cats over to canned food *alone*, they no longer needed insulin. There are controlled, clinical studies that link dry food with urinary tract obstructions and interstitial cystitis. Here's one: "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50). The bottom line is its much easier to deal with oral hygiene than interstitial cystitis, urinary tract obstructions, diabetes, and possibly CRF. Here's how: http://maxshouse.com/tooth_brushing.htm >"Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with >stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >interstitial cystitis, urinary tract obstructions, diabetes, and possibly >CRF. Here's how: http://maxshouse.com/tooth_brushing.htm I have/had respect for your obvious knowledge about cats but I repeat myself in saying that some people skills wouldn't hurt you......you still never comment about people who have had great success with dry food for years and years I suppose this is just happenstance and I have never met someone who is pro canned food who hasn't taken a shot at the dry food people for being lazy or doing what is easiest for us without thinking about the cat.......attacks on peoples characters will do very little to get yourself credibility in most peoples eyes......to each his own I guess........ Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > I have/had respect for your obvious knowledge about cats but I repeat > myself in saying that some people skills wouldn't hurt you......you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Brad *pimp slaps Brad across the mouth again* You fffffaggot! You just got done running your finger through the cake and now your over here humping the house DR for doing the same. low life a.s wipe >> I have/had respect for your obvious knowledge about cats but I >> repeat myself in saying that some people skills wouldn't hurt [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > low life a.s wipe You held the "DR" down so Brad could hump him. LOL "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net> wrote in message > You held the "DR" down so Brad could hump him. LOL Think a lot about humping, eh, EC? All you can do is just think about it! LOL! >> I have/had respect for your obvious knowledge about cats but I repeat >> myself in saying that some people skills wouldn't hurt you......you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >low life a.s wipe I hope you realize your childish posts mean nothing to me and if you aren't careful I'm gonna get ahold of your mother and tell her your using foul language on the internet......matter of fact I don't killfile but I'm done reading your posts you have nothing to offer go back to the last newsgroup you got ran out of......matter of fact you barry and Fillup would make a nice group all by yourselves...... my last answer to you ever sonny boy.....or girly boy or whatever you are.... Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >"Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with > >stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have/had respect for your obvious knowledge about cats but I repeat > myself in saying that some people skills wouldn't hurt you...... I don't mind if don't like my manners, I don't like them myself! They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winther nights. Some serious research into feline nutrition wouldn't hurt you and would greatly help your cat. you > still never comment about people who have had great success with dry > food for years and years ...until their cats develop urinary tract instructions, interstitial cystitis, and diabetes. Then they switch to canned food. But unfortunately, sometimes its too late. Male cats can *die* from a urinary tract instruction, and once interstitial cystitis is unmasked it can be very difficult to control. Diabetes has already been linked to feeding cats dry food. Diabetes in cats can be very difficult and expensive to manage. Many people choose euthanasia because they can't/won't monitor their cats' blood glucose and give insulin injections. Doesn't it make more sense to lower the risk of these diseases by feeding canned food than to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper? I suppose this is just happenstance and I > have never met someone who is pro canned food who hasn't taken a shot > at the dry food people for being lazy or doing what is easiest for us > without thinking about the cat Well that about sums it up! Dry food *is* more convienient and it *is* cheaper, but it also carries much higher risks to your cat's health. So, you're right! Feeding dry food is easier and less thought is given to the cat's health. .......attacks on peoples characters > will do very little to get yourself credibility in most peoples > eyes......to each his own I guess........ Denying the facts when they're presented to you clearly, doesn't help your credibility. <stuff> Hello What do you think? Do cats in the wild live as long as domestic cats. I figure in the wild, they eat small animals (which are high in water content) > <stuff> > > Hello > > What do you think? Do cats in the wild live as long as domestic cats. I'd reason to say they don't, too many predators in the wild. btw, I found a cool ad today I thought you might like: http://www.bitoffun.com/weirds-beerhelpugly.htm ok ok so it's old, but still funny > btw, I found a cool ad today I thought you might like: Ah, very good point. I just figured rabbit, and birds are wet food. > http://www.bitoffun.com/weirds-beerhelpugly.htm ok ok so it's old, but still > funny Yes it is! Classic! to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper? why do your posts sound the same every time I read them...?? > to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper? > > why do your posts sound the same every time I read them...?? Probably because you don't seem to learn or understand. >> to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper? >> >> why do your posts sound the same every time I read them...?? > >Probably because you don't seem to learn or understand. Yes Phil that might be it......it must be hell going through life with the burden of knowing that you are the savior of all of the unfortunate like myself who just don't have the brain capacity of someone of your caliber......but I will take the tradeoff I would bet I have allot more friends than you do because I don't have to be right all the time......sometimes I actually listen to and value other peoples opinions.......and save your comments about my opinions not being worth valuing......I can just about guess exactly what you are going to say next......do you have a huge word document that you copy and paste all of your answers here....... Now perhaps you can let me be cheap SOB and go and play with my cat instead of sitting back like you and telling them how much you know about them.......mine will live longer lives for that reason alone..... Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >> to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper? > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes Phil that might be it..... Might be???? LOL! .it must be hell going through life with > the burden of knowing that you are the savior of all of the > unfortunate like myself who just don't have the brain capacity of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Brad LOL! That's the funniest post I've read in a long time! > Phil P>That's far from the truth. There are only *three* dry diets that have a > >slight effect on the teeth- but the dental benefits don't offset the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > don't have any quarrels with someone that wants to feed the opposite > as I do its all about a little respect for each other. Brad, I don't think it's a question of ideas, but rather what is in the best interest of the cat, not the convenience of the human. It has been proven that a canned diet has more benefits to the cat's overall health than a dry kibble diet, which when you really think about it is not species appropriate. I admit I fed cats I've had in the past a kibble diet. It was very convenient to rip open the bag and pour it into a bowl. But I've since done a lot of research into it and I feel the benefits of a canned diet (or in my case a homemade diet) are more beneficial for the cat. It's not that much harder to get out a can opener :) Of course I do realize some cats are just kibble junkies and switching them can be nearly impossible. Lauren >Brad, I don't think it's a question of ideas, but rather what is in the >best interest of the cat, not the convenience of the human. It has [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Lauren Exactly how a post should be written you made it clear what you feel is best without trying to make the other "camp" look like dunces.....I hate to bring this up because I will get clipped again but my breeder has always only fed dry food and he like alot of the others have ribbons and best in shows and all the rest , can you do that with an unhealthy cat with a bad coat? Onec again I hate the convenience mentions always.......if I thought for an instant that wet was better for my cat I would throw the brand new bag of Iams away and go for the canned but unfortuneately many of the pro canned food people have been name callers and worse which makes it even a little bit harder to take their advice. So with me it honestly isn't convenience. I know my kitten is only 16 weeks old but he is so happy and healthy takes a lot of cat naps but in an instant when I get up hes hiding around the corner ready to pounce on me and play as long as I want matter of fact he is into bring his toys back to me now which is great he will hop in my lap with the toy and push it over the side....and then look at me until I pick it up......then push it over the side again.....and coming when I call him......I always had a soft spot for cats but never owned one but am overjoyed with this guy........ Lauren why do you think this arguement exist with Dogs? Obviously a different constitution but you would think the basic idea of canned vs dry would be there for dogs also, I have never heard that and I have owned five dogs over the years........ Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >Brad, I don't think it's a question of ideas, but rather what is in the > >best interest of the cat, not the convenience of the human. It has [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > ribbons and best in shows and all the rest , can you do that with an > unhealthy cat with a bad coat? Well...putting my opinions aside about cat shows, think about all the cats eating kibble that are in the show. So I would imagine the judge is picking out the best looking out of the kibble fed group. I can tell you in my experience, there is definitely a coat difference in a cat on a better diet. I imagine too the judges are looking at other things, like how the cat conforms to the breed standard (shape of body, shape of face and head, coat color, etc.) Kibble fed cats can look very healthy, but can be prone to things like urinary crystals and diabetes. > Onec again I hate the convenience mentions always.......if I thought > for an instant that wet was better for my cat I would throw the brand > new bag of Iams away and go for the canned but unfortuneately many of > the pro canned food people have been name callers and worse which > makes it even a little bit harder to take their advice. So with me it > honestly isn't convenience. I believe you, Brad. But if you do some reading, you will see how a canned diet can benefit your kitten. Right now he's young and these health problems such as urinary crystals sometimes don't show up until later in the cat's life. I would recommend reading this article, written by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf > I know my kitten is only 16 weeks old but he is so happy and healthy > takes a lot of cat naps but in an instant when I get up hes hiding [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > again.....and coming when I call him......I always had a soft spot for > cats but never owned one but am overjoyed with this guy........ All it takes is one to get hooked, eh? :) As I said earlier, health problems from a purely dry food diet may not show up until later in the cat's life. Also, if you ever decide to feed a canned diet, now is the time to introduce it to your kitten. What he is fed in the first 6 months of his life is most likely what he will associate as food. So getting him used to canned food now would be beneficial. You don't have to start out feeding him totally canned. Why not buy a few cans and try it out on him? Maybe feed him canned for breakfast and dry for dinner (I highly recommend against free feeding him kibble). > Lauren why do you think this arguement exist with Dogs? Obviously a > different constitution but you would think the basic idea of canned vs > dry would be there for dogs also, I have never heard that and I have > owned five dogs over the years........ But it is there, Brad :) Lauren See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe > It has > been proven that a canned diet has more benefits to the cat's overall > health than a dry kibble diet. Peer reviewed published citations please. Other than forcing more water to be excreted through the urine with canned food versus dry food excreting more through the feces - something that would positively affect less than 2% of cats with urolith problems - I would like to see any peer reviewed published clinical trials which prove such a claim. > > It has > > been proven that a canned diet has more benefits to the cat's overall [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > affect less than 2% of cats with urolith problems - I would like to see > any peer reviewed published clinical trials which prove such a claim. Since I don't have access to published peer reviewed journals, I will assume Phil P. would be a better person to answer than me. He's very knowledgeable about dry verus canned diets. I can of course give you anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure that probably won't mean much to you. > You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan > 1;210(1):46-50). Phil, The article you are referencing did not *prove* dry foods bad for cats. It was an associative review only. The ONLY thing that has been proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of water through the urine rather than the feces. Increased dilution of the urine will reduce the chance of urolith formation. Urolith formation affects less than 2% of cats at some point in thier life. In the rush to canned food - their is equal chance the cat will be fed a canned food of lessor quality and more risk than a good quality dry food. Moving a cat from a high quality dry food to a poor quality canned food with increased levels of calcium and phos would not likely be beneficial in the long run. Additionally increased levels of selenium and iodine are commonly found in canned foods compared to dry foods. Both of which are strongly implicated in hyperthyroid disease in cats. An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not opposed to canned food - I feed my own cats a canned food for the majority of their caloric intake - but I don't think it appropriate to insinuate that all dry foods are bad and all canned foods are better. Such is simply not the case by any means. The original post was relevant to tartar and palque in cats teeth. If the food has passed VOHC criteria, then it will have an affect on the reduction of plaque and tartar (assuming it was approved for both), For a list of VOHC foods see their website at VOHC.org I think. Dry food versus canned food has little impact on oral health, rather it is the calcium level in the food - regardless of type - that is the dominant factor is plaque and tartar deposition. > > You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The article you are referencing did not *prove* dry foods bad for > cats. It was an associative review only. Steve, I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. The ONLY thing that has been > proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of > water through the urine rather than the feces. Increased dilution of > the urine will reduce the chance of urolith formation. Urolith > formation affects less than 2% of cats at some point in thier life. That 2% statistic comes from the Veterinary Medical Data Base at Purdue It only represents a portion of the cats seen at the 26 veterinary university hospitals in N.A. A very small % of owners bring their cats to vet school hospitals. Thus, its not representative of the owned feline population that develop FLUTD or urolithiasis. 2% still represents millions of cats! Any risk is unacceptable if its an unnecessary risk. Here's a quote by DiBartola and Tony Buffington from Slatter's Small Animal Surgery: "An increased risk of FUS has been reported in cats fed exclusively dry food, and the same or less risk has been observed in those fed canned and other types of foods. An analysis of these data has suggested a dose-response effect on risk with regard to feeding dry food." Here's a quote from the previous edition of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition: "Workers in Denmark found that the risk of developing FUS was seven times greater when a regular dry cat food made up most of the diet, as compared to when it was never fed. In the United States the risk of developing FUS was found to be 1.7 times greater when a regular commercial dry food made up 50-75% of the diet, 3.1 times greater when it made up 75-99%) of the diet, and 6.7 times greater when only a dry food of this type was fed." > In the rush to canned food - their is equal chance the cat will be > fed a canned food of lessor quality and more risk than a good quality > dry food. What rush? A caretaker is just as likey to choose a low quality dry food as they are to choose a low quality canned food. Moving a cat from a high quality dry food to a poor quality > canned food with increased levels of calcium and phos would not likely > be beneficial in the long run. Who mentioned feeding a low quality canned food? Where did that come from? If a caretaker is feeding a high quality dry food why would they swich to a lower quality canned food? If a person is feeding a high-quality dry food, they are more likely to choose an equal or higher quality canned food. Additionally increased levels of > selenium and iodine are commonly found in canned foods compared to dry > foods. Both of which are strongly implicated in hyperthyroid disease in > cats. Steve, many studies were done thoughout the years that looked into the possibility of dietary iodine being a causative factor in hyperthyroidism. None were ever found. If you know of one that me and our vets missed, let me know. > An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is > erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not > opposed to canned food - I feed my own cats a canned food for the > majority of their caloric intake - but I don't think it appropriate to > insinuate that all dry foods are bad and all canned foods are better. > Such is simply not the case by any means. I disagree. A canned food is better for a cat than an *equal quality* dry food. The dry and canned foods in the study I cited were the same brand. > The original post was relevant to tartar and palque in cats teeth. > If the food has passed VOHC criteria, then it will have an affect on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it is the calcium level in the food - regardless of type - that is the > dominant factor is plaque and tartar deposition. On that I agree. >I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was >a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no >benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the >benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. Are there any canned diets that are specifically for seniors. Not just saying the word senior, but having supplements for seniors? How about glucosamine? I switched to Royal Canin food because of the specific foods. I wish they had canned, but they don't. I have never seen a canned food with glucosamine. And I have a hard time getting anything mixed in to the right proportions without having the cat turn it down as obviously contaminated. I would also be interested to know. Are there any studies that compare dry diets, wet diets, and mixed diets? I have seen the dry vs wet, but I feed a mixed diet, and it seems like that has the good features of both. The get the dental cleaning and the supplements I want. But they also get the canned food (except for Jay Jay, who won't eat it yet). Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > >I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was > >a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > mixed in to the right proportions without having the cat turn it down > as obviously contaminated. Science Diet has "Senior" formula in canned. The problem is that mine won't eat it. They *LOVE* the SD "Senior Advanced Formula" dry food and still free feed on that - but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can a day per cat). If my vet had not recommended canned food to get more water into Bandit, my 15-year-old, because of *slightly* elevated creatinin and BUN levels, I would not have even tried canned food since they've all done *SO* well on the SD dry all their lives (nary an illness and none even had to have dentals except Bandit who's had 2, her first at age 13). And actually, Bandit's labs haven't changed with the addition of the canned food - the only difference I see is that she doesn't get dandruff any more so she must be getting more oil into her hair. Hugs, CatNipped > I would also be interested to know. Are there any studies that compare > dry diets, wet diets, and mixed diets? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Equine and Pet Photography > http://www.zoocrewphoto.com Bandit's labs haven't changed with the addition of the canned > food - the only difference I see is that she doesn't get dandruff any more > so she must be getting more oil into her hair. > > Hugs, > > CatNipped After much deliberation, and contemplation, I think it's safe to say that kibble is better for the teeth, and wet food is better for over all long term health. So, you take wet food, put it in a pastry bag, and make all sorts of pretty little shapes, put them on a greased cookie sheet, bake at 350 for 275 for 47 mins. This makes crunchy little meals. (or NOT) I think the REAL benefit of wet food is the water. Not that the quality is better, of course it is not. There are as many vitamins in both! 80 % of a cat body is water, so logically a higher water content food is preferred. Just like foods higher in water content are better for you and me. A cat that eats only wet food will need more intense dental care than one who eats dry only. A cat that gets a combination of wet and dry, will be somewhere in between with his dental care > After much deliberation, and contemplation, I think it's safe to say > that kibble is better for the teeth, and wet food is better for over [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think the REAL benefit of wet food is the water. Not that the quality > is better, of course it is not. There are as many vitamins in both! Our vet said that the carbohydrate content was lower and the protein content was higher in canned food. She said that there is some evidence that the high carb levels in kibble are contributing to the incidence of diabetes in older cats. She recommended wet food, but acknowledged that a lot of cats won't eat it and in those cases you have to go with what the cat will eat. Our cats are fed a mixed diet. Valeria has a tender tummy and if her bowl is empty for too long she wolfs her food and then barfs it all up again. So we keep kibble around almost free choice and they get gooshyfood around 9 at night. They either split a 5.5oz can or get two 3 ounce cans in the evening. The feral comes in and will eat some of the food if it's fish in gravy, but won't touch any other variety. My background is in nutrition (herbivores and human) so when I get a free weekend I am going to start digging into the research and look at the numbers and see what I can pull out of it. I can say that since we started adding in gooshyfood, Amelia's dandruff has gone away and she's trimmed down a little. I'm really happy with the mix. b (writing up network diagrams this weekend) >Science Diet has "Senior" formula in canned. I'll have to check that one out. The "senior" foods I saw in the grocery store were mostly about protein and fat levels. Nothing to do with actual supplements for seniors. Also, I found that the Royal Canin Maine Coon food adds 3 times the amount of glucosamine than they give to the senior food - because larger build cats have more problems with joints. So, if I gave up the kibble, I would have to find some other way to get him the glucosamine. I would have to get him to eat two tablets, and won't touch them. Nor will he eat canned food yet anyway. Maynard used to eat the tablets and then got tired of them and refused. I could grind them up, but he ate such small portions of the canned food that I could never tell how much he actually got. With the kibble, I knew he got it. Jay Jay is a very bouncy big boy, and I'd like to keep him that way. His coat is nicer since the food change, and his stools are better too. I haven't needed a gas mask to clean the litter box in a while now (he still doesn't cover, but it doesn't knock you out now). And his stools are solid, not soft or runny. So, I have seen good changes since switching to this food, and I would hate to lose that. I will still try to supplement with canned food. Maybe I will find the right one someday. But I don't want to quit feeding the kibble. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com - but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast > "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can a > day per cat). Tender Beef Feast contains too much phosphorus (and protein) for a renal cat. If Bandit only likes beef flavor, Try Fancy Feast Grilled Beef- its much lower in phosphorus (0.88% DMB), or better still, Fancy Feast Minced Beef (0.75% phos. DMB). Have you tried Pet Guard Rabbit or Venison? Both diets are very low in phosphorus (0.21%, 0.20% DMB). Wysong Gourmet Chicken and Gourmet Liver are also low in phosphorus (0.60% DMB)- if Bandit will eat them. <snip> Bandit's labs haven't changed with the addition of the canned > food - <snip> The BUN will be high because Fancy Feast is *very* high in protein- almost 60% on a dry matter basis. Creatinine is less affected by diet. Minced Beef is a little lower in protein (54%), but its still a little too high for a renal cat. For renal cats, I've had the best luck with Hill's Prescription x/d. Its low in phosphorus (0.53% DMB) and moderate in protein (43% DMB). But most importantly, its not an acidified diet. X/d is more palatable than k/d and g/d- which I think are a little too low in protein. I've seen dramatic turnarounds in renal cats after switching to x/d from k/d. Good luck, Phil > - but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast > > "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > much lower in phosphorus (0.88% DMB), or better still, Fancy Feast Minced > Beef (0.75% phos. DMB). OK, I'll have to try that. > Have you tried Pet Guard Rabbit or Venison? Both diets are very low in > phosphorus (0.21%, 0.20% DMB). Wysong Gourmet Chicken and Gourmet Liver are > also low in phosphorus (0.60% DMB)- if Bandit will eat them. I can't find Pet Guard locally - I didn't want to order anything online because they are *SO* picky about what there eat so I didn't want to buy a large quantity of something that will go to waste. Do you know of any large chains (PetsMart or PetCo) that carry it? > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > g/d- which I think are a little too low in protein. I've seen dramatic > turnarounds in renal cats after switching to x/d from k/d. I don't think the vet is classifying her as renal - her creatinin and BUN is actually in the "normal" range, just high normal and, considering her age, the vet wanted to keep an eye on that and switch to canned food to control any future issues. > Good luck, > > Phil Thanks for the info Phil, I'll check out the Pet Guard (if I can get it online without spending a fortune I'll take the chance it won't be used - I can always give it to the rescue group I donate to). Hugs, CatNipped >I can't find Pet Guard locally - I didn't want to order anything online >because they are *SO* picky about what there eat so I didn't want to buy a >large quantity of something that will go to waste. Do you know of any large >chains (PetsMart or PetCo) that carry it? >Hugs, > >CatNipped Nipped, you can't just let the food there for awhile then put away and serve it again the next time and wait for them to get hungry enough to eat it? I'm being serious maybe their systems are so delicately balanced that they can get sick quickly from not eating but considering their ancestory I would expect them to be much more hearty than that. I'm not singling you out I have heard many people say they can't get their cats to eat the canned food. Maybe I feel this way because I was also in the group that said let the baby cry he's healthy and warm and will go to sleep soon......worked most of the time that I was able to follow my own advice :-) Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >I can't find Pet Guard locally - I didn't want to order anything online > >because they are *SO* picky about what there eat so I didn't want to buy a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, > shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. Also, I never believed in "let the baby cry until he/she stops". If they are crying, then they need something - even if that something is just the closeness of mommy. That said my children were *not* spoiled, were *not* "brats" (they didn't get *anything* they cried/whined for as far as toys or junk food - but they *ALWAYS* got cuddles and hugs when they needed them). Because of this they were always very well liked and sociable and turned out to be happy, healthy, well-adjusted adults who have successful families/career/lives. The security and self-confidence of *knowing* that they were loved and cared-for helped them overcome the "angst" of childhood, let them by-pass all of the behavioral problems of pre-teens and teens, and carried them along into adulthood. > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. Very True; and when you break this behavior down, it just makes you love them more. They walk like giants. Some days I come in, where my body is just glowing hot from being in the sun, (I'm brown as penny right now, I spent all last week in direct sunlight) Short story, a few times last week, I pulled away from Ruprecht, I dodged him so to say, while I was getting water, and getting in the shower and so on. Yesterday I came in, and instead of him trying to get on me like he will, he sat there waiting patiently! I caught him watching me out the corner of his eye. He just boguards my attention. He'll walk up, and lay on my feet, waiting for his massage I guess. > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > let them by-pass all of the behavioral problems of pre-teens and teens, and > carried them along into adulthood. You and my mother wnet to the same school of childrearing! > > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You and my mother wnet to the same school of childrearing! I *hate* it when people say, "let them cry, it won't hurt them, they'll learn to shut up". What they *learn* is that they can't depend on the one person who is their sole "life support"! They become insecure, afraid, feel like their needs are not important so have less self-respect. Sheesh - way to rear a healthy child, huh?! Hugs, CatNipped > > > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > CatNipped I think you're logic is rooted in emotion. Even when a child is born they get a little slap to kick off the crying. It's a lung thing. > > > > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Even when a child is born they get a little slap > to kick off the crying. It's a lung thing. Not any more - they get the mucous suctioned from their nose and throat. Just being born is traumatic enough without being slapped as their first experience of the world (though some would say that's what they *should* expect of the world). But no... "The myth that excessive crying is "good for a baby's lungs" is an invention of the emotional plague. It is in the same league as the rationalization, "Well, we have to toughen him up for this world that he's going to live in." Is that why we should neglect him, let him cry? Is that why we should let the harsh, neurotic world come down on him? We do not want to adapt the baby to a neurotic culture; we want to keep him as free from armoring as possible. We don't want to armor him like all the rest of us. To the extent that armoring is laid down, the ability for self-regulation is lost." ~The American College of Orgonomy You have been myth-informed. Hugs, CatNipped neurotic culture; we want to keep him as free from armoring as >possible. > >CatNipped Oddly enough neurotic seems to fit your personality perfectly. OK I am done you pissed me off so much with that first post I commented on I couldn't help taking some shots back at you, but only because you deserved them. Take your shots I won't discuss something with a crazy woman who I find it hard to believe you could bring your kids up normally when you are so out of control.......must be that Dad had some common sense. Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > > > > Nope. I learned ages ago that my cats can "out-stubborn" me. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Even when a child is born they get a little slap > to kick off the crying. It's a lung thing. Barry, you sound like an idiot here. And I say that in a loving way. :) Catnip has raised several lovely children. The closest you have come to that is that you WERE a child once. Her "logic" is not rooted in emotion. It is rooted in her brain and in her experience in raising children. >I *hate* it when people say, "let them cry, it won't hurt them, they'll >learn to shut up". What they *learn* is that they can't depend on the one [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >CatNipped Oh you hate that do you.........must be the reason you were such an a.s to me when I did nothing to you......you don't think babies are smart enough to dangle you by a string at a very young age? When my kids did cry I would know something is wrong because they learned that I wasn't a puppet on a string. I could easily argue the point with you but I don't care to have a discussion with someone that can't carry on a conversation but would rather attack someone who happens to have a different point of view. I hope your kids didn't pick up being obnoxious from you. Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" >Also, I never believed in "let the baby cry until he/she stops". If they >are crying, then they need something - even if that something is just the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >let them by-pass all of the behavioral problems of pre-teens and teens, and >carried them along into adulthood. To each his own I guess but if he cried for more than six hours or loud enough I couldn't turn the television up loud enough to hear I would go and slap the hell out of em till he fell asleep, you certainly didn't disguise your attack on me (totally unprovoked I might add). I guess never hugging or cuddling them didn't help much either. If I had only known you twenty some years ago maybe I could have saved my boys from the maladjusted lifestyle that has turned them into scars upon all mankind. Do you think using the" let em cry as long as you know they have everything they need theory" is why your kids turned out so successful and mine are both disgusting losers who by the way are both under arrest right now for a variety of felonies. Which by the way is nonsense they look pretty much alike, sure one of em is guilty but the other one isn't, not yet anyway but after reading your post I'm sure its only a matter of time until they are both in jail. After the first couple of sentences of your above paragraph I was all set to say something about how those of us who have guided our offsrpring through this difficult and dangerous period where peer pressure and drugs was thrust upon as early as grade school should be proud of themselves. But by the time I finished that paragraph I felt like I was being personally attacked hinting that.....hell no not hinting blatantly insinuating that my kids were unloved, I gotta tell you which I am sure you don't care about, but I am terribly disappointed that you felt like you had to attack me. If you don't believe me clear your mind and carefully read your above paragraph like I wrote it to you. It sounds like you are trying to convince me that you were a good parent which was unnecessary in the first place, I know nothing about you, but even if you were can't you do it without bringing someone down?? Sorry for the babbling, but this has me totally confused and I would like to hear if this was an attack against me or if I was off base on how I interpreted your post. I have been sitting here for an hour wondering if I should even reply or not but its driving me crazy. But please do me a favor and read the paragraph from my perspective and see if you can understand my concerns. Scratching my head?? That could be from seldom washing my hair and not using soap when I do wash it. Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >Also, I never believed in "let the baby cry until he/she stops". If they > >are crying, then they need something - even if that something is just the [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, > shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" No, it wasn't an attack, I'm sorry you saw it that way. I was just stating my child-rearing preferences. In another post I quoted part of a study on this very issue and you took *that* as an attack also, even though it didn't originate with me. It just makes me scratch *my* head and wonder about why you are so defensive about this issue. >No, it wasn't an attack, I'm sorry you saw it that way. I was just stating >my child-rearing preferences. In another post I quoted part of a study on >this very issue and you took *that* as an attack also, even though it didn't >originate with me. It just makes me scratch *my* head and wonder about why >you are so defensive about this issue. I credited you with more common sense or honesty or both, you even admitted later that the issue is a "hot button" for you and if you would have taken the time to read it as I asked I think you would have recognized that it certainly looked like an attack on me. If you say it wasn't I will take your word for it and bury the hatchet. Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" >- but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast >> "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can >a >> day per cat). >For renal cats, I've had the best luck with Hill's Prescription x/d. Its >low in phosphorus (0.53% DMB) and moderate in protein (43% DMB). But most [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Phil Phil I'm sorry to say this and really not trying to embarass you although you shot the first volley across my bow when all I did is compliment you awhile back, And I don't let anyone walk on me not even know it alls. I just gotta ask you how your cats got themselves into all of these unhealthy conditions in the first place, did you learn so much from nursing your cats back to health from feeding them diets to low in nutrition......try some dry maybe you won't have to learn all of these corrective actions. Heres hoping I won't have to learn massive corrective actions cuz my cats are just healthy and happy as hell........sounds like a pretty solid plan to me....... In all seriousness I respect your knowledge about foods and diet and the time you freely give to help people I just don't like the way you treated me like I was now worthy of having an opinion and I have seen you do the same to others but maybe some of those are afraid of speaking for fear of ridicule from you and your legions.....me I just tighten the chin strap on my helmet and charge unless its some of the idiots here who I don't care to expend my rapidly depleting store of brain cells..... Now go ahead and pick choose the few items in my post that you have a response to and the ones that take common sense to answer you can just let go like usual. Or better for us and the other members lets just drop the silliness.......matter of fact I will be the big man on this thread and let you take the last shots........because you are so deserving.......or you can let your minions finish your "lite" work. Brad Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > >- but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast > >> "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Phil I'm sorry to say this and really not trying to embarass you Fret not. I don't think its possible for you to embarass me. > although you shot the first volley across my bow when all I did is > compliment you awhile back, And I don't let anyone walk on me not even > know it alls. I only seem like a know-it-all to you. Its a relatively thing. > I just gotta ask you how your cats got themselves into all of these > unhealthy conditions in the first place, did you learn so much from > nursing your cats back to health from feeding them diets to low in > nutrition......try some dry maybe you won't have to learn all of these > corrective actions. Actually, Brad, I rehabilitate cats from shelters and from vets whose owners couldn't/wouldn't treat their cats' illnesses. > Heres hoping I won't have to learn massive corrective actions cuz my > cats are just healthy and happy as hell........sounds like a pretty > solid plan to me....... Better start reading up on urinary tract obstructions, cystitis, and diabetes so you'll know what to look for when your cats' start developing symptoms. > In all seriousness I respect your knowledge about foods and diet and > the time you freely give to help people I just don't like the way you > treated me like I was now worthy of having an opinion and I have seen > you do the same to others but maybe some of those are afraid of > speaking for fear of ridicule from you and your legions.... Its all in your mind, Brad. You have a very fragile ego. I simply corrected you. .me I just > tighten the chin strap on my helmet and charge unless its some of the > idiots here who I don't care to expend my rapidly depleting store of > brain cells..... Glad to see you have a few left! Better hang on to them very tightly- you can't afford to lose the few you have left. > Now go ahead and pick choose the few items in my post that you have a > response to and the ones that take common sense to answer you can just > let go like usual. Couldn't find any of those! LOL! Or better for us and the other members lets just > drop the silliness....... The only one posting silliness is you, Brad. matter of fact I will be the big man on this > thread and let you take the last shots........because you are so > deserving.......or you can let your minions finish your "lite" work. > > Brad As long as you're feeding only dry food, just make sure you physically *see* your male cat urinate at least once day. Male cats that can't urinate for 24-36 hours can die from acute renal failure. > Steve, > > I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was > a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no > benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the > benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. I might agree if while we are "erring" on the side of caution we were taking a look at the incidence rate of many other diseases and using the same caution. But alas that isn't the case. The carbophobics are so intent accepting the hypothesis that canned food is the cure for every disease known to cats. Point in fact it is not - and never will be. > > The ONLY thing that has been > > proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > hospitals. Thus, its not representative of the owned feline population that > develop FLUTD or urolithiasis. Actually the stat I was trying to quote does not come from Perdue but rather from the Elizabeth Lund study. Even so - the Perdue data is a cross section of the real world. Is it likely to reflect a higher incidence of disease - yes - but the trends remain valid. > 2% still represents millions of cats! Any risk is unacceptable if its an > unnecessary risk. But ONLY 2 million cats. (I know 2 million is a lot) It is annoying to find a focus on canned food as a resolution uroliths, and ignore renal disease, which according to the Perdue data has had a massive increase between 1990 and 2000. In a ten year stretch the incidence in cats over 15 went from less than 1% to 11%. While everyone is scurrying around worrying about canned foods to deal with a 2% problem, we run the great risk that they will elect to provide canned foods which contain much higher levels of phos than is typically found in dry foods. It's simply the nature of the beast. > Steve, many studies were done thoughout the years that looked into the > possibility of dietary iodine being a causative factor in hyperthyroidism. > None were ever found. If you know of one that me and our vets missed, let > me know, Our patents were published in December this past year. The data that supports the patents is very clear and of course is only a tiny fraction of the clinical data that will be published over the next couple years. > > An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is > > erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I disagree. A canned food is better for a cat than an *equal quality* dry > food. The dry and canned foods in the study I cited were the same brand. Agreed, if that is what Joesephine Consumer actually bought. When buying dry foods the cost per day to feed the cats is about 25% of the cost of feeding canned foods. If Josephine Consumer elects to spend a few extra bucks buying a better quality food, the same dollars spent will buy a much better quality dry food than a canned food. Not many consumers are as interested and concerned as consumers who typically read this NG. Most are looking for convenience and to some degree price, even in the premium sector. How many posts have we read even on this NG regarding the cost of any given food? If Josephine Consumer elects to spend only X dollars per month feeding her cat - then those dollars will buy a far better quality dry food than a canned food. > > Steve, > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > intent accepting the hypothesis that canned food is the cure for every > disease known to cats. Point in fact it is not - and never will be. Steve, it's too bad you can't debate without resorting to exaggerations. Do you honestly believe that people think "canned food is the cure for every disease known to cats"? Geesh..., now that's just silly. <snip> >Steve, it's too bad you can't debate without resorting to >exaggerations. Do you honestly believe that people think "canned food >is the cure for every disease known to cats"? <minor snip> What, it's not???? aaarrrgghh!!!??!!! > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > aaarrrgghh!!!??!!! Nope, only in people :) > > Steve, > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > intent accepting the hypothesis that canned food is the cure for every > disease known to cats. Point in fact it is not - and never will be. Steve, I didn't say canned food is a "cure for every disease known to cats". However, it may prevent a few. Canned food is the first-line treatment for interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis, IBD, and recently, diabetes. Now, if cats with these diseases are *switched* to canned food for management and to prevent recurrence, feeding canned food from the git-go may prevent these diseases from ever developing. > > > The ONLY thing that has been > > > proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > cross section of the real world. Is it likely to reflect a higher > incidence of disease - yes - but the trends remain valid. In my experience and our vets' general practices, I think the RL incidence of FLUTD is much higher than 2%. > > 2% still represents millions of cats! Any risk is unacceptable if its an > > unnecessary risk. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > higher levels of phos than is typically found in dry foods. It's simply > the nature of the beast. What are you talking about? Even most of *your* dry foods are higher in phosphorus on a caloric basis than most of *your* canned foods! In addition, when consuming dry food the total phosphorus intake is *multiplied* because dry food is less digestible and therefore, the cat must eat more food, and in doing so, ingests more phosphorus and magnesium. In fact, one of the FUS studies cited in the previous edition of SACN stated the urinary magnesium concentration was *three times higher* when cats consumed a dry food than when they ate a canned diet, even though the magnesium content in the dry matter of the diets was the *same*. > > Steve, many studies were done thoughout the years that looked into the > > possibility of dietary iodine being a causative factor in hyperthyroidism. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fraction of the clinical data that will be published over the next > couple years. I'll take that as a "no". > > > An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is > > > erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > few extra bucks buying a better quality food, the same dollars spent > will buy a much better quality dry food than a canned food. Not so. The "best" dry food cannot be as digestible as an equal quality canned food. How could it be when only *dry* powered ingredients can be use in dry foods compared to fresh or whole meats and other ingredients used in canned foods. Not many > consumers are as interested and concerned as consumers who typically > read this NG. Most are looking for convenience and to some degree > price, even in the premium sector. How many posts have we read even on > this NG regarding the cost of any given food? If Josephine Consumer > elects to spend only X dollars per month feeding her cat - then those > dollars will buy a far better quality dry food than a canned food. No. Dry food is simply cheaper and more convenient than canned food. > > > Steve, > > > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > > > Steve, many studies were done thoughout the years that looked into the > > > possibility of dietary iodine being a causative factor in > hyperthyroidism. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > No. Dry food is simply cheaper and more convenient than canned food. Dr Mr Potatoe Head Just kidding man... Looka here! Why does dry Create Crystali? >> Steve, I didn't say canned food is a "cure for every disease known to cats". > However, it may prevent a few. Canned food is the first-line treatment for > interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis, IBD, and recently, > diabetes. Now, if cats with these diseases are *switched* to canned food > for management and to prevent recurrence, feeding canned food from the > git-go may prevent these diseases from ever developing. By that logic every cat should be fed k/d canned as soon as they are an adult. Renal failure is more common than many of those diseases combined. > In my experience and our vets' general practices, I think the RL incidence > of FLUTD is much higher than 2%. We always think so for a number of reasons. Cats that are not ill don't get into the vet clinic, so the population you are looking at is vastly different than the population as a whole. Secondly we've all experienced what happens when we buy a new car - suddenly we notice all kinds of people who were as smart as we were and bought the same model. > I'll take that as a "no". As you please. > > Agreed, if that is what Joesephine Consumer actually bought. When > > buying dry foods the cost per day to feed the cats is about 25% of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in dry foods compared to fresh or whole meats and other ingredients used in > canned foods. Phil, You know better than this. The cost of shipping water - which is +70% of the product makes that completely impossible. Digestibility values wouldn't even come close to altering the net cost difference between two foods. Further "dry powdered ingredients" are not the primary ingredients in dry foods, anymore than they are in canned foods. Chicken used in canned foods can be exactly the same chicken used in canned foods. The only difference is this extrusion process which removes the water, the type (dry powdered versus otherwise) of ingredient changes hardly at all. It is entirely possible to have a dry food that is mroe digestible than a canned food - happens all the time. > >> Steve, I didn't say canned food is a "cure for every disease known to cats". > > However, it may prevent a few. Canned food is the first-line treatment for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > adult. Renal failure is more common than many of those diseases > combined. No. K/d is way too low in protein for all but end-stage renal cats. Our renal cats made *dramatic* turnarounds after switching to x/d from k/d and increasing protein. Increased protein intake results in *increased* glomerular filtration, whereas restricted intake results in a *reduction* in the GFR. Protein restriction also decreases renal ammoniagenesis, and therefore renal acid excretion- which leads to or exacerbates metabolic acidosis. In addition, restricting protein impairs immunological responses and reduces resistance to infection; it reduces hemoglobin which causes or exacerbates anemia, and it decreases plasma protein levels, and causes muscle wasting. This isn't a theory, Steve. I have living, breathing renal cats that you would never believe are renal cats! K/d will certainly prolong the life of cats in end-stage renal failure, but it may hasten the demise of cats in early to mid-stage renal failure. > > In my experience and our vets' general practices, I think the RL incidence &g |
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