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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2005cat is a bully
We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple of years, one of them has really become a bully to one of our other cats. Here's our cat family: Brak - Male 18lb - 5y old (the bully) Warren (Braks brother) - Male 13lb - 5y old Kaya - Female - 7lb - 10mo Zena - Female - 10lb - 13y Brak is probably the best lap cat/people bather (except he can't sit still in your lap for more than 30 seconds at a time before he has to readjust), but he will NOT leave Zena alone. He traps her into corners and behind the big TV and bites at and wrestles her. She screams and yowls, she won't fight, she rolls over on her back which makes it even easier for Brak to assault her. As you can see, he's almost twice her weight. Wife has had enough and had told me one of them has to go. We love them all, Brak and Warren were inseperable which is why we adopted them both (though they don't seem to be now, Brak jumps on him sometimes too and pisses him off). Zena is wife's cat from before our marriage. More living space might help the problem, but right now we simply don't have more space to give them. They're confined to the downstairs which gives them 3 rooms. Wife doesn't trust them upstairs (except Kaya) as they jump into baby's crib (Kaya is small enough to squeeze under the gate blocking off the upstairs). The plant sprayer doesn't deter Brak at all. He hates it but even after a year of squirting him, he won't change his behavior. When he had her trapped behind the TV the other day, he ignored my wife yelling at him because he knew she couldn't get to him physically. She had to find the water bottle and spray him to get him to leave Zena alone. I don't want to get rid of Brak or Zena, but I'm not sure what I can do to change Brak's behavior. Wife is at home all day and says it happens several times a day. Any help greatly appreciated. >Brak is probably the best lap cat/people bather (except he can't sit still >in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >yowls, she won't fight, she rolls over on her back which makes it even >easier for Brak to assault her. *grin* Never forget that cats are not just small dogs. When cats roll over onto their backs they're definitely in the fight. The best offensive defensive position (the defensive position where they can do the most damage) is on their back -- that allows them to bring their *extremely* powerful hind legs into play. She's probably rabbit-kicking him and you just can't see it. Full disclosure: I am a trainer/behaviourist in Washington DC. >As you can see, he's almost twice her >weight. The biggest instigator in my household is Hakaisha, a 7.5 pound grey moggy boy. He regularly takes on his 'uncles' -- two 13 pound Bengals. >The plant sprayer doesn't deter Brak at all. He hates it but even after a >year of squirting him, he won't change his behavior. When he had her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to change Brak's behavior. Wife is at home all day and says it happens >several times a day. Any help greatly appreciated. It sounds like Brak and Zena are fighting it out to see who is the top cat in the household. Honestly, I would say that as long as there is no blood, let them work it out. 'Real' cat fights involve blood, and lots of it. Remeber that a cat's mouth is filled with extremely sharp teeth designed to let blood, and even if there's fur flying they are both practising bite inhibition. By you two breaking up the wrestling matches, you are preventing any sort of decision on the part of the cats as to who's top cat. Now, if you want to artificually throw your weight behind one or the other you can -- greet your choice for Top Cat first, pet it first, feed it first. Maybe block access to behind the TV with pillows or something temporarily. Another option would be to do a 're-introduction'. Put Brak in a small confined room (like a bathroom) and let he and Zena re-introduce slowly. You did introdcue them slowly at first, right? Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >>Brak is probably the best lap cat/people bather (except he can't sit still >>in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > rabbit-kicking him and you just can't see it. > Full disclosure: I am a trainer/behaviourist in Washington DC. Not applicable with the Ragdoll breed of cats who do this all the time because... well because it is comfy and they like it. With them it has nothing to do with fighting or a defensive position. >>As you can see, he's almost twice her >>weight. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >Not applicable with the Ragdoll breed of cats who do this all the time >because... well because it is comfy and they like it. With them it has >nothing to do with fighting or a defensive position. When wrestling or fighting, it *is* a defensive posture. When just lying around the house, or with very trusted people it's a comfort and trust thing. :) My Bengals flop onto their backs and wiggle around when they want their tummies petted or kissed. Of course they also wrestle like mad things and believe me, when he goes onto his back then it's to rabbit kick his brother. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >>Not applicable with the Ragdoll breed of cats who do this all the time >>because... well because it is comfy and they like it. With them it has [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > course they also wrestle like mad things and believe me, when he goes > onto his back then it's to rabbit kick his brother. Ragdolls don't fight. Laying on their backs is one of their characteristic behaviors. Bengals are entirely another issue. ;) > Orchid > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid (...) > Ragdolls don't fight. Ha ha ha. Here's the thing: No human-designed breed of cat is so far from the moggy norm that said breed of cat has lost any fundamental moggy behaviours. But, you are free to believe the Ragdoll hype, of course. > Laying on their backs is one of their characteristic behaviors. Any cat can - often will - lie on its back, in a non-defensive move. Both of my (non-Ragdoll) cats do this all the time. However, in the context of a fight, the position is primarily defensive. Steve. >Ragdolls don't fight. > >Laying on their backs is one of their characteristic behaviors. > >Bengals are entirely another issue. ;) Jay Jay is the most mild cat you have ever seen. He lets a 7lb kitty boss him around. He even let the elderly Maynard boss him around. He loves to lay on his back and lounge around. But when he plays, being on the back os to rabbit kick. And he has quite the force. He can hurt me easily just in play. Just because a cat is non-agressive, and doesn't set out to fight, doesn't mean it won't play in this posture. Or protect itself when attacked.  Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com (...) > Just because a cat is non-agressive, and doesn't set out to fight, > doesn't mean it won't play in this posture. Or protect itself when > attacked. Indeed. Every cat, in extremis, will defend itself. To breed out one of the most fundamental mammalian behaviours would take more than a few generations of breeding, esp. given that breeding is biased toward appearance, not behaviour. Likewise for hunting behaviours. Steve. > (...) >> Just because a cat is non-agressive, and doesn't set out to fight, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve. Hmmm. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/BigRedKitty/Siamesekitty.jpg some very interesting insights, but i really dont think they are fighting it out to see who is top dog... or cat in this case. zena is very submissive to everyone. she doesn't fight, she gives up her food or bed or toy or window if someone else tries to take it, it's sort of sad actually. she tries to run from brak but he chases her. yes, they were introduced slowly (btw, brak and warren were 2 weeks old when they came home, we foster cared for their litter for a local shelter). she and brak actually were like best buddies when he was a kitten. they really seemed to love each other and cuddled together all the time. now she cant stand him and just hisses at him if he even walks near her (ok, so i guess that's not submissive, but it's probably also instigating some of the attacks). >>Brak is probably the best lap cat/people bather (except he can't sit still >>in [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple of years, > one of them has really become a bully to one of our other cats. Here's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Kaya - Female - 7lb - 10mo > Zena - Female - 10lb - 13y Your acting like a hairlipped man trying to order worchestershire sauce in a steak house. roll up a walmart circular, or a dollar store circular...put it in your back pocket. The very next time you catch him on top of the other cat, and the other cat is hollering mercy, but he won't stop...BUST THAT a.s! (spin him around) I SAID STOP! If he lays his ears back and wants to take you on...give em some more...across that a.s..don't bruise him, or maim him, but pop him one. Dammit, I get mad people won't spank children or cats. it's crazy. Now kids are suing for parents correcting them. This is a JOKE! We gotta get back to basics... (you heard what I said) Now, for whatever reason is really behind his frustration, please stand by, Im fixing to get flamed for this post...but if you look in the flame posts at me, you might gather up possible reasons for him doing this in the first place, BUT I STILL WOULDN'T TOLERATE IT. And you say he stuck his tongue out at your wife? And she's fixing to kick him out of the house? Really Barry? Jen >> We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple of years, >> one of them has really become a bully to one of our other cats. Here's [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >And you say he stuck his tongue out at your wife? >And she's fixing to kick him out of the house? Orchid--if I may step gently in and off-the topic here. Could I ask you a few questions about my recently adopted three cats? My email is jen_mckim@yahoo.com Thanks, Jen >Really Barry? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>And you say he stuck his tongue out at your wife? >>And she's fixing to kick him out of the house? >Orchid--if I may step gently in and off-the topic here. Could I ask you a >few questions about my recently adopted three cats? My email is >jen_mckim@yahoo.com ` Sure. My email works. :) Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid "bigbadbarry" <bigbadbarry@adelphia.net> wrote: > RobR wrote: >> We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple >> of years, one of them has really become a bully to one of our >> other cats. Here's our cat family: Brak - Male 18lb - 5y old >> (the bully) Warren (Braks brother) - Male 13lb - 5y old Kaya - >> Female - 7lb - 10mo Zena - Female - 10lb - 13y > Your acting like a hairlipped man trying to order > worchestershire sauce in a steak house. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a.s! (spin him around) > I SAID STOP! The problem with your approach is that even though we understand what you are saying, the cat might not. Or it might forget. The cat does not understand like we do. It might not be able to comprehend that beating up on the other cat is wrong, so your discipline might cause worse problems. If the cat were able, it might run away from you and that would solve the problem except he would be gone. Given a closed environment, the cat cannot run away, and the possible/likely result is that you will cause equal or worse problems before the aggressor stops beating up on his victim. > If he lays his ears back and wants to take you on...give em some > more...across that a.s..don't bruise him, or maim him, but pop [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Injection-Info: o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.168.3.215; posting-account=spjB1A0AAABQAQQ5dkg3_gZwONU3us3k > Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:372239 <no go> Answer me this, and I will never ever make the suggestion again. Suppose Zena was 30 lbs,fierce, wise, and grave. Along comes Brak. Brak tries his bully routine on Zena, Zena says, I'm not going to kill you Brak, but son, I have to give you something to remember this by, swipe, scream, swipe swipe...Brak never saw it coming! And really...it hurt too. Now, is Brak going to Bully Zena again? We should defend the weaker. What father does not discipline his child. A child that is not disciplined is a bastard. I am opposed to spankings as a catchall, I think spankings can only be given when there is no hypocrisy; otherwise your building a time bomb. I think we should pick and choose our battles, and spankings should be reserved for the most important things. Spanking should not be used to replace the things that garner respect. I declare you loose a undisciplined spankee from guilt when you tag that buttox. It is a basic fundamental practice that is waning. But my cat won't love me? I'm not talking about isolated horror stories of abuses, closet prisons and stripes on the back, or burning with irons...hell no. That's weird and punisable by federal law. I'm talking about a firm hand. GOTCHA CAT! stick that tongue out again! He won't forget. Incidently, I don't agree with counting to three..I prefer the element of suprise. It makes your effort all the more potent, for what cat among you does not secretly wait on his prey. After you get them one time; from then on, all you got to do is put that look on them. (if need be). We know that cats know what we want, they run from us...they get behind the tv and do thier deeds. They know when we are displeased. If I can get away with saying this...some of you are going to feel really good to finally get that cat a.s! He's had it coming for a looong time! I'm a bad cats worst nightmare. If all else fails, send them to bigbadbarry's badasscat bootcamp. It won't be a pretty sight when you come to pick them up, he might not wanna leave! :) > <no go> I just wanted to clear something up You should not have to do this but once or twice. For my cat, it took one time, per thing. One was electrical chord chewing, the other was when he sliced my ear. After that, it was done. He knew. These two times also kind of took care of a few smaller things, but I would have never said anything to him, but let him think what he wants. So what exactly deserves a swat? Who knows! I mean, you would know better than anyone. I would say, defiance when you are preserving your family or his life. One lady got on here and told about water pistols all over the house. she was gonnas train her cat to walk the line or something. This is someone I would not trust with my cat. This type of individual would do better to go buy a large glass cat and set it on the shelf and dust it daily. Damn water pistols all over the house! You can't stop a cat from doing cat things, if you don't like cat things, don't get a cat. I give my cat nothing but freedom. I don't insist that he does anything he doesn't want to do. Except for playing in the rain, I won't let him out in the rain. I think what the cat responds to more than the swat, is the fact that you are unhappy enough to do it! My Lord, they can't get enough snuggling with us as it is! They hate that awkard moment afterwards, that brief encounter of a sense of being seperated from the thing they love the most. This is why I threw in the water pistol scenario...You are going to get less results with a spanking, if that cat doesn't have any regard for you. Yeah, small detail..uh. If that cat does not like you anyway...Just move out. ... > A child that is not disciplined is a bastard. Whatever. That a mature cat is like a human child is a bad analogy. > I am opposed to spankings as a catchall, I think spankings can only be > given when there is no hypocrisy; otherwise your building a time bomb. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Injection-Info: g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.168.3.215; posting-account=spjB1A0AAABQAQQ5dkg3_gZwONU3us3k > Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:372257 > Your acting like a hairlipped man trying to order worchestershire sauce > in a steak house. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > more...across that a.s..don't bruise him, or maim him, but pop him one. > Dammit, I get mad people won't spank children or cats. What the hell is wrong with you? Never- ever use physical punishment on a cat! Never! Because you don't have the intelligence to train a cat without striking her, don't tell other people to hit their cats, you f.cking moron. To Rob: Ignore this moron's advice. Barry is the result of generations of Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. Troll > Path: newssvr19.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail > NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:12:49 -0500 [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > To Rob: Ignore this moron's advice. Barry is the result of generations of > Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. > Troll How did you know? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception! LOL! > To Rob: Ignore this advice. I'd be happy to debate this; but I will not participate in profanity and vulgar comments with you. If you want to debate this on an intellectual level, then I challenge you to debate. I disagree with you, and I am sure if you actually read my post, then you would agree with me. But you have not read my post, I am sure of this. I think your just scared I will tear down your belief system, and this admittedly is a scary thing. > > To Rob: Ignore this advice. > > I'd be happy to debate this; but I will not participate in profanity > and vulgar comments with you. That's the best I can do with idiotic a.sholes like you. Learn to live with it. I would think you'd be used to it. > If you want to debate this on an intellectual level, then I challenge > you to debate. Debate what, a.shole- that you should never strike a cat? There's nothing to debate. You should never hit a cat- its as simple as that. > > > To Rob: Ignore this advice. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Debate what, a.shole- that you should never strike a cat? There's nothing > to debate. You should never hit a cat- its as simple as that. I'm done being vulgar in front of the Ladies, I was wrong for that. If this was a mens only club, you'd be blusing right now. First of all, you haven't read my post. Second YOUR STILL WRONG. Come back when you get some couth about yourself. If Brak was my cat? He would not taunt Zena anymore. I am the big cat in the house, I call the shots all the shots. Especially if my wife is fixing to get rid of a cat. This has been going on for 3 years, and the best you can come up with is... (well, like I said, I'm done being vulgar). but you offer no solutions... I wouldn't care if Brak was in a 5 foot square box...they are all going to get along, because I said so. I don't care if they don't like it, I don't care if they hate me, it matters not...they are going to get along. 3 years of Braks bad a.s, and the best you can do is curse and abuse the man who has the winning answer.... BUST THE CATS a.s! >> Debate what, a.shole- that you should never strike a cat? There's >> nothing to debate. You should never hit a cat- its as simple as >> that. Cats 'hit' each other and ... worse! ;^) Matter of fact, I have a short video showing a cat hitting a very small child! What about the Rights of children to never be attacked by a house cat? Hmmm? ;^) > > > > To Rob: Ignore this advice. > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm done being vulgar in front of the Ladies, I was wrong for that. If > this was a mens only club, you'd be blusing right now. I'm already LMAO at your utter stupidity. > First of all, you haven't read my post. Second YOUR STILL WRONG. > > Come back when you get some couth about yourself. That's actually funny coming from a moron. LOL! > If Brak was my cat? He would not taunt Zena anymore. I am the big cat > in the house, I call the shots all the shots. So you're a paranoid control freak, too! I'd bet you got your a.s kicked a lot in high school- probably still do! Especially if my wife is > fixing to get rid of a cat. This has been going on for 3 years, and the > best you can come up with is... (well, like I said, I'm done being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 3 years of Braks bad a.s, and the best you can do is curse and abuse > the man who has the winning answer.... Winning answer? You're an absolute loser. You really don't know how stupid you really are, do you? Hitting a cat is inhumane. Also, the aggressor associates the punishment with the other cat- which can lead to attacks at the sight of the other cat and only increases the aggression. Hitting a cat also breaks down the cat-owner trust and bond--- not that you have a bond with your cat. > BUST THE CATS a.s! Actually, I'm glad you gave this advice! I'm sure you've removed any doubts that anyone might have had that you're an utter moron. > Hitting a cat is inhumane. Cats are not human / my goodness I never used the word "Strike". However, we will play it your way and give cats a human role. Human mothers and father do spank thier children. (You still haven't read my post) Why would a body "hit" a body? Makes no sense. Just hit them; It's called love. when you love a child you discipline them. A father that does not correct his child has a bastard for a son. (all children need correction, they are born with a measure of foolishness bound up in thier hearts, it has to be driven from them) > Also, the aggressor > associates the punishment with the other cat - which can lead to attacks at > the sight of the other cat and only increases the aggression. This is hearsay at best! However, we'll play it this way too... This is exactly what you want! ------------------------------ You want the bully to know the consequence of his action. I want him to associate getting his a.s busted with bullying another cat. "lest he should forget". I want him to remember. Please do associate my action with that action (bullying). By all means, associate. Believe me, they quickly associate. > Hitting a cat also breaks down the cat-owner trust and bond--- not that > you have a bond with your cat. I don't "own" my cat no more than I might say, "own" a wife. You own a car, or a house, the only instance I know where one would claim to "own" where warm blood is involved would be in a slave situation. We are stewards, we are guardians not possessors. I do not say, that no animal can be owned, we're talking about cats. A breeder seeing his cat in terms of dollar signs may consider that he owns his cat; where the cat is viewed as an asset, or an object of proffit. If you had actually read my post you would at least know how I feel about this, and you would stop already with the street level tactic of insulting. This is a partnership, one of mutual respect. When your cat has no respect for you; it is not the cats fault; but more than likely just a sign of pure ol neglect, not spending any quality time with them, (among many other possible reasons). A corrective action should not be used; where there is lack of respect. However, a cat may respect you and still need a reminder but there is a distinct difference here, it seperates the abuser from the partner, it seperates the healthy relationship from the un-healthy relationship. What really breaks down trust and bond, is when a cat is allowed for example to do as he pleases, regardless of who he is effecting. Trust and bond are under girded with respect, respect has got to be first. The cat can depend on you for daily food - but this guarantees no respect. The only way to gain the respect of your cat is to do right by him. You can loose respect by playing favorites with your cats (they know when you do it). If I had a big brother bully me around and my guardian did nothing? I would loose respect for my parent or guardian. This is all basic and fundamental truth and practice. (reality in practice) You deepen the relationship, you prove your love, as a bonus you made some behavior modifications. It really is not fair to me to have to keep writing the same things; I suffer you once more: This is not an ongoing matter, this business of correcting. It is best to do this around 7-9 months (give or take) depending on the beast. And after this...you won't need to, the balance of the cats juvenille, young adult life can be handled with a look. Where there is mutual respect in a partnership...what can I say, this speaks for itself. When they are old they can do what they want, they don't have to mind anybody. > > Hitting a cat is inhumane. > > Cats are not human / my goodness > I never used the word "Strike". > > However, we will play it your way and give cats a human role. Inhumane = giving cats a human role? ROTFLMAO!!! You're not a moron; you're an imbecile! > Inhumane = giving cats a human role? ROTFLMAO!!! Well you can get off the floor now By definition, the term carries the meaning, of Not Human, Not worthy of being a human. What the heck is so funny, get your a.s off the floor boy, act like you got some damn sense about you, you embarrassing yourself. Can't take you no-where > > Inhumane = giving cats a human role? ROTFLMAO!!! > > Well you can get off the floor now I can't! Your follow up post is even more stupid than your previous post! > By definition, the term carries the meaning, of Not Human, > Not worthy of being a human. I said hitting a cat is *inhumane* you backwoods moron, not 'inhuman'. 'Inhumane' means lacking compassion, cruel. > What the heck is so funny, Your monumental stupidity! >> Hitting a cat is inhumane. snip >> Hitting a cat also breaks down the cat-owner trust and bond--- not that > > you have a bond with your cat. snip > I don't "own" my cat no more than I might say, "own" a wife. You own a > car, or a house, the only instance I know where one would claim to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in terms of dollar signs may consider that he owns his cat; where the > cat is viewed as an asset, or an object of proffit. snip > This is a partnership, one of mutual respect. When your cat has no > respect for you; it is not the cats fault; but more than likely just a [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > they are old they can do what they want, they don't have to mind > anybody. Excellent post, Barry. Signature- Philip Barry, I do have to agree with you. About the discipline. A child needs it no matter what. A cat or kitten, however needs discipline to learn its boundries. So Barry I 100% agree with you! >> Hitting a cat is inhumane. > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >anybody. > SignatureAli > Barry, > I do have to agree with you. About the discipline. A child needs it no > matter what. A cat or kitten, however needs discipline to learn its > boundries. So Barry I 100% agree with you! You should never hit a cat. Ever. Only morons like Barry who lack the intelligence to train a cat with patience and common sense hit cats. If you can't train a cat without hitting, you shouldn't have a cat-- or kids. > > Barry, > > I do have to agree with you. About the discipline. A child needs it no [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If you can't train a cat without hitting, you shouldn't have a cat-- or > kids. This is the same stupid bitch who would not take her kitten to the vet when he had a broken tail. Her "pure bred" kitten that she intended to breed. Then lied about it. It has to be a full moon. > This is the same stupid bitch who would not take her kitten to the vet > when > he had a broken tail. Her "pure bred" kitten that she intended to breed. > Then lied about it. > It has to be a full moon. It is? Crap. I can't keep up with who said what anymore. I just answered another question from her in a different thread. Hope the grandbabies don't get spanked :( People keep saying that if you don't hit or spank, the child (or cat, in this case) isn't disciplined. Not true. There are many ways to discipline without hitting. Go watch Supernanny, she actually has a lot of good discipline techniques. Signature-Kelly >> This is the same stupid bitch who would not take her kitten to the vet >> when [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > without hitting. Go watch Supernanny, she actually has a lot of good > discipline techniques. I want to see Mary on the Naughty Mat and out of range of a keyboard for a week. LOL > > > Barry, > > > I do have to agree with you. About the discipline. A child needs it no [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Then lied about it. > It has to be a full moon. Now I understand why she agrees with our resident idiot. Ignore this moron's advice. Barry is the result of generations of > Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. Phil,your post above is VERY uncouth and frankly immature and made you look more like the insult which you yourself posted. Defending your position is one thing but making it so ugly was uncalled for. I'd suggest an apology might be in order (if your capable)..the party you insulted (Barry) was only trying to be helpful right or wrong. > Ignore this moron's advice. Barry is the result of generations of > > Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > capable)..the party you insulted (Barry) was only trying to be helpful > right or wrong. Trying to be helpful by advising people to hit their cats. I'm betting Phil finds that upsetting. I sure do. by advising people to hit their cats. I'm betting > Phil finds that upsetting. I sure do. Your wanna the old folks here? You are probably the very root of bitterness here. You have infected so many people, that a person can't get on here without the infected people looking for somewhere to displace all the hurt you have dealt out. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but this is what I see. You got all the brown nose cats, gang up and start telling it all...(they treat other users the way you treated them) the ones you treated this way, they do not like you, they only join your side because they don't want you to call them a f.cking idiot. It hurts, it makes them feel bad. Your a bully! A crude redneck bully. You have your disciples. All I see is Mary has been cruel to each one. You have rejected and accepted people based on wether or not you was able to put them in a box. If your little world could not contain them, you just cut them. Name calling. Your the biggest bully I'll never meet. Shame on you, it's pure rotten. Your not worthy of my company or my advice in this your on your own. It's just that simple Mary. Your an insult to normality, the only reason I cannot show you mercy, is because you have not showed mercy. Your strategy is to put words in the mouth of your target, followed by the consequence if they do not agree. Oh, Barry didn't mean that, because only a ghotdam moron would think like that. (there's the rejection, there's the consequence). You prey on the meek. Meek is not weak, you will reap every drop of what you have sowed into the lives of real souls, behind all those posts you cut, out of your own bitterness. It's selfish is what it is. > by advising people to hit their cats. I'm betting >> Phil finds that upsetting. I sure do. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > the lives of real souls, behind all those posts you cut, out of your > own bitterness. It's selfish is what it is. Good post. Your points are not wrong (a moral judgement) or inaccurate. Now excuse me but I need to go the toilet and take a big healthy MARY. > Ignore this moron's advice. Barry is the result of generations of > > Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. > > Phil,your post above is VERY uncouth and frankly immature and made you > look > more like the insult which you yourself posted. So you think I should have just stuck with calling him a f.cking moron or blabbering idiot? > Defending your position is one thing but making it so ugly was > uncalled for. I'd suggest an apology might be in order Apologize to an aminal abuser who strikes cats? Are you related to Barry? (if your > capable)..the party you insulted (Barry) was only trying to be helpful > right or wrong. Thanks for your advice! Its always a pleasure to hear constructive criticism from sanctimonious, self-righteous buffoons I don't know. > If he lays his ears back and wants to take you on...give em some > more...across that a.s..don't bruise him, or maim him, but pop him one. > Dammit, I get mad people won't spank children or cats. Barry, please don't even joke about this subject unless you *clearly* make note that you are only joking (and don't be surprised when some of us refuse to even joke about it). There is *WAY* too much violence in this world, aimed at both children and animals, already. There is *NEVER* a reason to hit someone except to take out your anger on someone who is weaker than you. If you are doing it to stop someone from bullying others then you are only reinforcing the bully behavior. Any sentient being - any creature with nerve endings - can be taught correct behavior by systematic and *consistent* rewards for good behavior or the withholding or rewards in response to bad behavior. The very first step in controlling another's behavior is controlling your own. Teach by example and don't example bad behavior or violence. Hugs, CatNipped > > If he lays his ears back and wants to take you on...give em some > > more...across that a.s..don't bruise him, or maim him, but pop him one. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > CatNipped If your cats have claws, the first thing you should do is clip Brak's claws. If your cats do not have claws, you should ask your mother for further assistance. > Path: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm02.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny09.POSTED!1c5f25b1!not-for-mail > From: "RobR" <nospam nospam.com> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > to change Brak's behavior. Wife is at home all day and says it happens > several times a day. Any help greatly appreciated. Also, put a bell or other noisemaking device (as loud as possible) on the bully so that all of the other cats can tell where he is. > We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple of years, > one of them has really become a bully to one of our other cats. Here's [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > to change Brak's behavior. Wife is at home all day and says it happens > several times a day. Any help greatly appreciated. My two cents: Three rooms is not enough room. Does the entire upstairs really need to be blocked off? I am expecting twins and plan on using a crib tent (available at any baby store) over the crib and that's it. Possibly closing the nursery room door if there are any issues, but they are used to having that room blocked off anyway as it was my cat/kitten foster room. Zena probably feels she has no space to call her own. Use positive reinforcement when Brak is interacting with Zena nicely. Praise, treats, pets, even when it's something as small as sitting next to her. DO NOT add fuel to the fire by yelling, getting in between the fight, using a water pistol, etc. This will teach Brak that Zena is a negative thing and also get him even more riled up. I have dealt with this situation with one dominant cat and one wimpy cat. I also wish I could just tell wimpy cat to stand up for herself, but she does the same thing, hisses if he walks by, starts running if he even looks at her, etc. It has gotten much better than it was though. Try Feliway diffusers. They may help calm both cats. Signature-Kelly >DO NOT add fuel to the fire by yelling, getting in between the fight, using >a water pistol, etc. This will teach Brak that Zena is a negative thing and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >starts running if he even looks at her, etc. It has gotten much better than >it was though. I had a situation like this many years ago when one cat started attacking the other on sight. It became a horrible cycle as Tove would attack because Maynard ran. And Maynard would run because Tov would attack. It took me 8 months, but I solved the problem. The first 3 months was Maynard learning to feel safe again. He had the run of the basement and was not allowed upstairs. And Tov was not allowed downstairs. The first 2 months, Maynard didn't even want up. I waited longer to make sure he was really good and secure and knew that the basement was completely safe. Then, I started giving him short periods of time upstairs while Tov was locked away. He was really spooky for a few months. So, he needed hours of time upstairs without being attacked (or even seeing his enemy). But he could smell her and know that she was still there. Tov didn't get as much training during this time. But she did know he was in those neuttral areas. Once Maynard was comfortable being loose in the upstairs, I started holding him while letting Tov into the same room. Each got to see the other, but neither one could do anything more than stare. I made sure that Maynard couldn't run, and of course Tov could not attack. They needed to get used to seeing each other and NOT taking action. Tov needed to see that Maynard doesn't always run. And Maynard needed to see that Tov doesn't always attack. Basic reconditioning. Once Maynard was relaxed with this step, I decided to reverse the process. Let him loose and have Tov on the leash. This worked extremely well as Tov was so uncomfortable with the halter that she felt she could not even walk. She just laid there on the floor like an idiot. So, we started doing that. She was completely harmless and Maynard was safe. We did this stage for a few weeks, and then let them both loose while supervised. After a total of 8 months (we took it slow, no rush), we were able to leave them both loose, unsupervised, with no more attacks. They were never buddies, but they were able to walk past each other, calmly, with no problems. It was well worth the time and effort. And with Chase, we just put the halter on him on occasion, and he goes back to being good. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > We have four amazing indoor only cats, but over the past couple of years, > one of them has really become a bully to one of our other cats. Here's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > yowls, she won't fight, she rolls over on her back which makes it even > easier for Brak to assault her. Actually, this is a cat's strongest defensive position! If she spins on her back she can position Brak so his back feet land on the ground and not on her stomach and his head and shoulders will also hit the ground. He'll have to get up to re-attack. Then all she has to do is spin on her back again so her head is nearest to Brak with her rear paws ready to kick him off. She's now the wrong way around for Brak to attack. This whole move - (which is called 'wrong-footing') actually takes less than second. I've seen this move many times- especially in my feral colonies- its pure artistry to watch (as long as the attacker backs down). As you can see, he's almost twice her > weight. > Wife has had enough and had told me one of them has to go. We love them > all, Brak and Warren were inseperable which is why we adopted them both [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I don't want to get rid of Brak or Zena, but I'm not sure what I can do > to change Brak's behavior. Brak's behavior is not the problem- Zena is the instigator. She's wary of Brak and her wariness is probably provoking Brak and inducing the attacks. Punishing him is also inflamming the situation because he's associating the punishment with Zena's presence. What I think you should do is separate the cats behind a net or gates. Two, 22" and one 36" Gerry Gates will fit in a doorway from floor to top and still allow you to open and close the door without removing the gates. Here's what it looks like: http://www.maxshouse.com/introducing_cats.htm Feed the cats as far from the gates as possible for a few days. When you see the cats eating in peace and showing no fear or aggression, gradually move the food and water bowls closer to the gates every few days until the bowls are touching the gates and cats eat without the showing fear or aggression. Don't rush it or try to force or induce the cats to approach each other. The object of this plan is to make Zena feel comfortable in Brak's presence. When the cats approach each other through the gates and eat without showing any signs of fear or aggression for several *consecutive* days, you can remove the gates- but supervise the first few initial contacts. Have a blanket ready to throw just in case. Let me know how it goes. Best of luck, Phil > Actually, this is a cat's strongest defensive position! If she spins on her > back she can position Brak so his back feet land on the ground and not on [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Phil or he could just bust that cats a.s and be done with it. I've never heard of such rubbish. Me thinks your head is a little clogged with cat poo. > or he could just bust that cats a.s and be done with it. I've never > heard of such rubbish. Me thinks your head is a little clogged with cat > poo. Regardless of how I feel about your advice, it's just not going to work in the OP's situation. Getting aggressive with the dominant cat is only going to inflame the situation, not diffuse it. -Kelly >Getting aggressive with the dominant cat is only going > to inflame the situation, not diffuse it. One cannot be aggressive with ones self. I am the dominant cat. Im in charge. I call the shots. > >Getting aggressive with the dominant cat is only going > > to inflame the situation, not diffuse it. > > One cannot be aggressive with ones self. I am the dominant cat. > > Im in charge. I call the shots. I know you realize that you, with one cat and only the experience of having this one cat alone in your house, are talking to someone (several people, in fact) who have a lot of experience with more than one cat in a house. So I know you are just theorizing here. I think it is really important that anyone who is reading your advice understands this. You're talking about breaking bad with Ruprecht when he breaks bad with you. You are not talking about having used this "method" with two cats that are fighting. Right? > > >Getting aggressive with the dominant cat is only going > > > to inflame the situation, not diffuse it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > bad with you. You are not talking about having used this "method" > with two cats that are fighting. Right? I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "bastard"! And neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method on their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in sports, and have never been in any kind of trouble). "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't provide discipline if your own behavior and emotions are undisciplined. Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in solving a problem. Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are contradicted by the actions we perform). Hugs, CatNipped > I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent > behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life > and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "bastard"! And > neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method on > their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in sports, > and have never been in any kind of trouble). This is a commendable, and rare oddity. Sounds highly whitewashed, but I have to take your word for it. > "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a > structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't > provide discipline if your own behavior and emotions are undisciplined. Why do you think correction means malice? Real correction stems from love. I don't wanna get into all this, but a child who never mis-behaves well, they should not be spanked. A child who does, and is not spanked? That is an unhappy child. > Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means > being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young > (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. This is a stretch and an assumption on your part; for I fully believe what I'm talking about; and I'm not out of control. > Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the > unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in > solving a problem. Would this include the way Phil has been acting in humping all my posts? > Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by > example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are > contradicted by the actions we perform). I know, you didn't read my posts, truth is, it is over your head anyway, you wouldn't understand it, it's a whole other field of practice. You probably count to 3 before even taking a moderate action towards correction. > Hugs, > > CatNipped I love ya babe, but this is bullshit bullshit! > Why do you think correction means malice? Real correction stems from > love. Correction does not equal violence. There are plenty of ways to discipline and correct a child or animal that do not involve hitting. > I don't wanna get into all this, but a child who never mis-behaves > well, they should not be spanked. A child who does, and is not spanked? > That is an unhappy child. You know what? I was spanked, and it didn't teach me a damn thing except to be afraid of my father. Sure, I wouldn't do whatever I was doing wrong again, but not because "oh, now I know that's wrong" but because I didn't want to get hit again. I am NOT going to do the same thing to my children. I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this thread. Mary, do you really want to defend this POS? Signature-Kelly > I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this > thread. > Mary, do you really want to defend this POS? > > -- > -Kelly No-one suggested you did; excuse me for challenging your belief system. You may have had an abusive father. You have not heard me suggest one ounce of abuse, but it's easier for your little mind to just throw it all, rather than consider any of it. Later > You may have had an abusive father. > > You have not heard me suggest one ounce of abuse, but it's easier for > your little mind to just throw it all, rather than consider any of it. It wasn't abuse in the "CPS would have taken me away" sense, but it's just what you "that child needs an ass-whuppin" types advocate. I spilled something at dinner, I got spanked and sent away from the table. That type of thing. I wasn't bleeding or bruised, but it's enough to make a child scared. Signature-Kelly > It wasn't abuse in the "CPS would have taken me away" sense, but it's just > what you "that child needs an ass-whuppin" types advocate. I spilled [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > -Kelly Kelly, there is a balance. I do not say, slap your child for spilling milk? That's crazy! That is out of control. I can see why you was scared. If you think for one minute that I advocate this; then I will take the blame and say I have not communicated myself very well. This is not at all what I'm talking about. How many posts have come through here and I suggest a spanking, one or two. How many posts come through here where on the surface it appears to be behavior, but really it's possibly a brain tumor. I say that to say; I am not one of those, "That child needs a spanking" type. Your trying so hard to put me in some place, here or there, be done with me, hate me like me...why does it have to be this way at all? > Kelly, there is a balance. I do not say, slap your child for spilling > milk? OK, so what type of behavior does merit a spanking? > That's crazy! That is out of control. I can see why you was scared. > If you think for one minute that I advocate this; then I will take the > blame and say I have not communicated myself very well. This is not at > all what I'm talking about. You kept saying "Bust the cat's a.s". That sounds pretty violent to me. Signature-Kelly > > You may have had an abusive father. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of thing. I wasn't bleeding or bruised, but it's enough to make a child > scared. It's not the pain that causes the damage... as anyone who has ever been through childbirth can testify, pain is quickly forgotten (or there would never be a mother with more than one child except for the mothers of twins). It's the *fear* that causes the damage. Whenever someone who is three or four times your size and even more multiples your strength loses control of themselves and commits violence it is so frightening that it can cause permanent damage. Spanking isn't about correcting behavior just like rape is not about sex - it's a control issue and enforcing your will upon anotherby brute strength and bullying when you can't enforce your opinions and beliefs by dint of logic or ethics. Hugs, CatNipped >It's not the pain that causes the damage... as anyone who has ever been >through childbirth can testify, pain is quickly forgotten (or there would >never be a mother with more than one child except for the mothers of twins). >It's the *fear* that causes the damage. Exactly. My dad doesn't hit the cats (or people for that matter), but he does throw things and bang things when he gets angry sometimes. And Chase is afraid of him. He will occassionaly come up and sniff a hand. But my dad cannot pick up that cat for anything. On the other hand, I can yell at Chase while he is attacking Kira, and he will stop and come to me instantly. He does his little whine (sort of like - "but she made me do it"). But he does come to me. And even when I am holding the halter, he comes and lets me put it on him. He even purrs. It is really nice to have them trust you enough, that even when they are in trouble, they will come to you and let you pick them up. The only time I hurt my cats is by accident. And I always apologize so that they know it was not intended. They have come to know that I can be a clutz, and it is best not to stick their tails under my feet. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > > I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this > > thread. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Later No, Barry, she is reading the same posts I am reading. You're talking about controlling via dominance and aggression against smaller, weaker creatures, and even suggesting that this is the was "real men" "run" their families. It's f.cking nuts. > > Why do you think correction means malice? Real correction stems from > > love. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > again, but not because "oh, now I know that's wrong" but because I didn't > want to get hit again. I am NOT going to do the same thing to my children. I was never spanked, and I did lots of stuff I should not have. My father shamed me and my mother guilted me. That was all it took. > I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this > thread. > Mary, do you really want to defend this POS? No, Kelly, I don't. I do like Barry but here he is wrong. And this nonsense about a difference between households run by men and women is really scary. Marriage is a partnership. Some work better than others, but any time any single person is dominating, what we have is something the f.ck out of Deliverance--the dark ages--the Bad Old Days. It is ignorant and dangerous. It is a dangerous product of ignorance. And a man who has to raise his hand to anything weaker than himself is not a man at all. > No, Kelly, I don't. I do like Barry but here he is wrong. And this nonsense > about a difference between households run by men and women is really [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and dangerous. It is a dangerous product of ignorance. And a man who has > to raise his hand to anything weaker than himself is not a man at all. You are wrong about me. You seem so desperate to turn me into a brute retneck or something. Your jumping on a bandwagon headed to nowhere because Barry is not any of them things, neither do you find it in my writing. You use words like ignorance, dark ages, deliverance, bad boys, what is all this, who are you describing? It ain't me sista! And I tell ya, I ain't taking the blame for your judgement call, if you extracted this from what I wrote, then you was on a with hunt from the moment you saw the words, bust that a.s. I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and rewards. Treats are for dogs doing parlor tricks, cat's walking high wires. I am good all the time, or at least I try. This is no motivation, this is...how you train an animal. There is no way, you read my words. It is impossible to write a hurtful post like you did, having read what I wrote. I know you didn't. Don't tell me, we're reading the same things, yeah, you all saw the words bust that a.s..then anger kicked in...and you took from there. It's alright, it's not the first time I've ever been misunderstood. Everybody I know, they love me. Animals, children, parents, women, all of em. Because I handle my business, I don't put nobody down, I do good, and good comes back. I have never beat my cat. I have never beat any animal. I have swatted my cat, to save his life. yeah Swatting my cat does not justify you calling me or making reference to my beliefs as something out of ignorance. To be swift in judgement about something you don't know about, well, now what is this? > > No, Kelly, I don't. I do like Barry but here he is wrong. And this nonsense > > about a difference between households run by men and women is really [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Your jumping on a bandwagon headed to nowhere because Barry is not any > of them things, neither do you find it in my writing. YES, I do. So do many others. If this is not the impression you want to give, then re-examine your words. > You use words like ignorance, dark ages, deliverance, bad boys, what is > all this, who are you describing? It ain't me sista! And I tell ya, I > ain't taking the blame for your judgement call, if you extracted this > from what I wrote, then you was on a with hunt from the moment you saw > the words, bust that a.s. You post carelessly. Period. Don't want to be misunderstood? Then learn to express yourself more accurately. >> No, Kelly, I don't. I do like Barry but here he is wrong. And this >> nonsense [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You are wrong about me. Mary is in fairy land. A close friend of ours is a licensed clinical social worker, specializing in child abuse cases in a clinical setting (hospital). Been doing this for 19 yrs. In passing, she told my wife and I that about half of her cases are mothers abusing their children while the balance is mostly boy friends of single mothers. And there is frequently drug or alcohol abuse involved. > You seem so desperate to turn me into a brute retneck or something. > Your jumping on a bandwagon headed to nowhere because Barry is not any [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > To be swift in judgement about something you don't know about, well, > now what is this? Barry, you are corresponding with a woman who is irrational, unreasonable, spiritually adrift, and manipulative. >I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a >character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and >rewards. Treats are for dogs doing parlor tricks, cat's walking high >wires. I am good all the time, or at least I try. This is no >motivation, this is...how you train an animal. Really, no it's not how you train an animal. I am a *professional* trainer/behaviourist. I solve problems with aggressive animals all the time for my clients. My cats do ICAT, and have dog-style basic obedience. I foster the aggressive, abused, or otherwise 'difficult' dogs for Papillon Rescue. I volunteer train with Lab Rescue. I have helped train detection dogs. When rehabilitating abused or aggressive animals, you *never* use physical force. You use a combination of reward and verbal correction. When training any dog that must work on a high level (Search and Rescue, detection, police dogs, military K-9s) the dogs are *never* *ever* trained with force. They are trained with reward -- usually a special ball or tug toy and lots and lots of praise. I regularly tell my clients and students that the stupider you sound to yourself (high-pitched voice, goofy sing-song, lots of 't' and 'd' sounds) the better the dog likes it and the better he will work for you. After all, you do your work for reward -- why shouldn't your pets? Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid Yeah, well Brak still needs a swat and he will stop. You don't throw a treat up into the middle of a cat fight. >> >I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a > >character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > Yeah, well Brak still needs a swat and he will stop. > You don't throw a treat up into the middle of a cat fight. Well, what you typically do is to reward the cats for being in each other's presence without fighting. This is also a good way to go about introducing a new pair of cats - the idea is for the cats to associate each other with good sh.t. Also distraction tactics are useful, using a toy of some sort when the fur is at risk of flying. Steve. > Well, what you typically do is to reward the cats for being in each > other's presence without fighting. This is also a good way to go about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve. This sounds do-able. Of course as is par for the course, we may never hear from the OP again. There are so many situations still hanging on here, I would personaly like to know what Rob does, and how it went for him in this. >>I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a >>character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Orchid Orchid. Barry was talking about cats and using treats to some end ... you rambled off on rehabilitating abused DOGs. Disconnect. >>>I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a >>>character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Orchid. Barry was talking about cats and using treats to some end ... you >rambled off on rehabilitating abused DOGs. Disconnect. Phillip. Barry was talking about 'how you train an animal', and about 'chastisement' and not using treats and rewards. As someone who trains animals for a living, some of whom will perfom on quite a high level, I felt that he needed to know that he is wrong about 'how you train an animal'. I brought up the work I do with dogs as my bona fides. Reading comprehension. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > >>>I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a > >>>character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > you train an animal'. I brought up the work I do with dogs as my bona > fides. Reading comprehension. Then you didn't read what I wrote, plain and simple. I said, this is how you train an animal. We're not talking about "training". > > >>>I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a > > >>>character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Then you didn't read what I wrote, plain and simple. I said, this is > how you train an animal. We're not talking about "training". What is the deal, here, Barry? How can you post downright idiotic sh.t like this and not just shrivel up? What Orchid says here and in her earlier post makes perfect sense. You really are a moron-- and an agressive moron at that. Here is a clue for you: continuing to flap your lips and sound even more stupid is not doing anything good for you. Trust me on this. >>>>I got new for you, everybody that chastises a child or pet is not a >>>>character from deliverance, or ignorant either. I don't use treats and [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Orchid This is a CAT forum as is this thread. "Animal" in this context is a CAT. :^) > > I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent > > behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This is a commendable, and rare oddity. Sounds highly whitewashed, but > I have to take your word for it. It's probably as hard for someone who has been reared in a violent home to believe that there are homes where violence is never used, but they do exist. > > "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a > > structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well, they should not be spanked. A child who does, and is not spanked? > That is an unhappy child. I don't think that correction means malice, I think correction means just that - correcting bad behavior by exampling restraint and rewarding good behavior. Children who are not spanked are not unhappy - children who are not disciplined are unhappy, but as I've explained spanking and discipline are not only two different things, they are polar opposites. > > Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means > > being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young > > (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. > > This is a stretch and an assumption on your part; for I fully believe > what I'm talking about; and I'm not out of control. No, not an assumption, simple fact. You can believe in what you're talking about 100 percent and still be 100 percent wrong. If you are giving vent to your anger, then you *are* out of control, and there is not other reason for hitting someone than giving vent to your anger. > > Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the > > unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in > > solving a problem. > > Would this include the way Phil has been acting in humping all my > posts? This has nothing to do with Phil, I was responding to your suggestion to commit violence on a being weaker than you are - that's bullying. > > Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by > > example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > practice. You probably count to 3 before even taking a moderate action > towards correction. No, I don't have to count to three. Being reared the way I was (and the way I reared my children) means that my anger never gets out of control to the point that I have to take time to gain control. > > Hugs, > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > bullshit! OK, think of it like this. When a child (or animal) misbehaves and "causes" you to lose your temper and resort to violence, then *they* are controlling *you*. My children could do whatever they chose to "get a rise" out of me, but they *never* "got a rise" out of me. *I* chose how I would react, and what I chose was to address their behavior, and change it. When you react with anger and perpetrate violence (and how in the world can anyone state that hitting is *not* voilent??!), you are allowing womeone else to control you instead of being in control of a situation. Really Barry, when you hit someone, at the *best* you are simply teaching them to be afraid of you (and thereby try harder not to get *caught*) - and at worse you are teaching them to *be* violent. Does the world really need more violence????! When you teach someone to behave well because they are getting rewarded for behaving well you are setting up this changes their fellings about behaving well and not just to behave well out of fear. If you're interested, here is some commentary I wrote on parenting that explaines the "Three Cs" in more depth: "C1 - Control, and this means control of yourself first! No screaming or hitting in reaction to what your child does, that gives HIM control over YOU (HE does act A, YOU have reaction B - he controls you!). It's very easy to lose your temper and threaten or spank the child, but this only strengthens his knowledge that he can control your actions with his. You'll usually calm down later and regret grounding him or hitting him and then rescind the punishment or apologize, again this puts him in control - he got his way with no, or amended consequences. C2 - Consequences, both good and bad as in, "If you choose to finish your homework you'll get an extra fifteen minutes of TV tonight, if you choose to not finish your homework you will be given two extra chores to do". ALWAYS put it in that manner - that he is the one who is choosing his fate, not you or anyone else. Remember to keep both the rewards and punishments reasonable. Don't make rewards or punishments |
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