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My cat has a grave prognosis-Chylothorax (LONG)

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Candace - 29 May 2005 22:18 GMT
I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
guess my decisions.  But, it's a long weekend and I guess I feel like
mentioning it now.  FWIW, I'm in AZ, we have no vet schools here and
I'm not flying her to some other state's vet school.

My cat Abbey, who is only 4 (we found her abandoned in the desert on
6/17/01 and she was only about 5 weeks old) has chylothorax, which is a
fairly rare condition in cats where there is a small hole in the
thoracic wall where lymphatic fluids from the digestive system (chyle)
seep into the pleural cavity so there is a large fluid buildup.

Abbey had no symptoms that we noticed until 3 and a half weeks ago.  I
came home from work on a Thurs. night and she was breathing very oddly,
rapidly and shallowly.  My own vet was closed by this time and I didn't
want to go to the actual emergency vet, as it's kinda icky there, so I
called another vet who I have been to before.  They are a practice who
takes their own emergency calls 24 hours a day whereas my "real" vet
just has a message saying to take your animal to the emergency vet.

Anyway, her chest was tapped (220ml), the fluid was sent out, the
diagnosis was confirmed as chylothorax.  She had x-rays, full blood
panel, no causes were determined--it can be caused by trauma, heart
conditions, lymphoma, other cancers, or by nothing at all  She is FeLV-
and nothing indicated any other conditions present so her diagnosis is
idiopathic chylothorax.  I was told and later read on my own that
chylothorax has a bad prognosis.  Further complicating Abbey's
condition is that she has fibrosing pleuritis, meaning that the fluid
was present in her pleural cavity for awhile (cats are very good at
masking their symptoms until they hit a critical mass) and scarred the
outside of her lungs, making them small and contracted.  This makes a
bad prognosis officially a grave prognosis.  She is not expected to be
able to overcome this but it is, of course, a possibility.  She will
always have diminished lung capacity, though.

She was sent home with lasix and clavamox.  The first week, she was
quiet, had to be coaxed to eat, seemed a little glum but not in pain
really.  By the end of the week, she was almost back to normal and
stayed good for another 2 weeks, eating, playing, hanging out with her
"brother," Scottie, my orange kitty, and avoiding her other brother
Marbles, our aggressive, bizarre cat.

3 weeks to the day, last Thursday, I came home from work and she was
breathing bad again.  Not as bad as the first time but definitely
somewhat labored.  Called the vet, took her in again, same routine,
drained her chest (140ml), x-rays.  This was a different vet at this
same practice.  He talked me into keeping her the night in an incubator
with oxygen running.  She wound up staying 2 nights, getting several
lasix injections, aminophylline injections, polycillin injections, but
she wasn't eating there so we brought her home yesterday.  She seems to
be resting comfortably, eating a little on her own and more if coaxed,
not her perky self but not as withdrawn like after the 1st time it was
done.  She is still on lasix, clavamox, and we are going to give her
vitamin E and rutin, both things we read about that the vet said
couldn't hurt but won't necessarily help.

So, that's it.  My sweet little girl kitty, she's very tiny, may not be
with us much longer.  The thing is...and I hate to say this because of
potential flaming...I have a monetary limit on what I can spend when
the prognosis is poor.  I don't have an actual figure but each time
we've gone, it has cost $700-800 so I assume if it happens again (which
is "expected"), it will cost about the same.  I might opt to not keep
her there overnight as that didn't seem to help much, imo, but the
draining and the x-rays are standard.  She also had to be anesthesized
for the draining this time although not the first time.

I'm not asking for advice on when to stop.  I guess I will have to
decide that myself.  Originally, I told myself that if she went a month
without needing draining, I would do it again.  Well, she only went 3
weeks but she had been so improved that I felt I needed to do it again.
Now, once again, I feel like I will do it a third time, but
practically speaking, I can't do it forever.

There is a surgery but it is a very painful surgery with a low success
rate where they open the chest, strip the lining off the lungs, insert
chest tubes for awhile.  It's painful and I wouldn't do it.  Both vets
said they would not subject their own cats to it.  I'm sure that would
require a specialist.  The only other option is to insert a chest tube
for several days or more but that is a procedure where she would remain
hospitalized for the whole time and there's no guarantees with that
either as that does nothing to seal the hole.  She won't eat there, she
looks miserable there, and, once again, very low success rate.
Basically, everything has a very low success rate.  The only thing that
one can hope for is that the hole seals itself, which can happen.  But
that could happen after 2 drainings, 20 drainings, or never.  The
prognosis is very grave, that's what they keep telling me.  But I have
read on the internet of a cat who has survived for 3 years now with
just the treatment Abbey is getting.  This one cat in particular only
has to have his chest drained every few months now.  And he has lung
scarring like Abbey does, too.  So there is a glimmer of hope, it's
just a matter of how long I want to put her and us through this, I
guess, and also of how many times I can afford to do so, sadly.  The
cat I mentioned above is a shelter mascot cat who goes to a university
vet shcool for his treatments so I'm sure money is not as much of an
object.  The shelter probably gets donations for his care (he has a
webpage) and the school probably donates some of the treatment.

To complicate things further, as of 6/2, I will be alone for 18 days to
pill her twice a day myself.  It takes both of us to do it now so it
will be a major challenge.  Plus any decisions that need to be made
during that time will be mine alone as Tony will be in China on
business.

I guess at some point, TBD, when/if it happens again, when I take her
in, I will have to choose euthanasia instead of the draining.  If you
feel so inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive
energy here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.

Candace
Elle - 29 May 2005 22:32 GMT
It seems to me you've given Abbey more time than she would have had
otherwise. And she is suffering, because of the disease and because of the
treatment of it. I think you're doing right to listen to the vets, who sound
pretty tactful and thoughtful, about how grave her condition is. One does
have to be practical in situations like this. When the quality of the cat's
life gets so low...

Take care, Abbey and Candace. I hope you will continue to keep the group
posted.
Candace - 29 May 2005 22:52 GMT
> I think you're doing right to listen to the vets, who sound
> pretty tactful and thoughtful, about how grave her condition is. One does
> have to be practical in situations like this. When the quality of the cat's
> life gets so low...

After the first time we had her chest drained, I contemplated
euthanasia every day because she looked so glum but then she improved
and was back to normal so I was glad I didn't do it.  I assume now that
in a couple of days she will be feeling well again.  Right now, she's
looking out the back door at birdies.  So I truly don't think her
quality of life, per se, is low right now.  And this time I caught it
quicker, she wasn't breathing as hard.  In fact, she ate dinner right
before I took her to the vet.  If I didn't think she would bounce back,
I wouldn't keep doing it but she will bounce back.  It's just a matter
of how long she'll stay well until the next time, if there is a next
time.

I think part of it is her age, too.  Last year, I had my beloved Cory,
PTS, but he was 18.  I never regretted anything about that, he had a
very long, happy life.  Abbey has had only a short, happy life...which
I know is a lot more than a lot of other kitties get but she's still so
young.

> Take care, Abbey and Candace. I hope you will continue to keep the group
> posted.

Thank you.
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 30 May 2005 01:46 GMT
> I think part of it is her age, too.  Last year, I had my beloved Cory,
> PTS, but he was 18.  I never regretted anything about that, he had a
> very long, happy life.  Abbey has had only a short, happy life...which
> I know is a lot more than a lot of other kitties get but she's still so
> young.

I'm very sorry to hear this news. You have certainly done more than
many people I know would have done. I hope they can find an underlying
issue that will clear it up, and I pray that she has some reserve
strength and energy to beat this.

I understand how unfair it is. I've had two that lived to be 18 and 19,
but I also had a stray, probably only 8 months old or so, that was hit
by a car, seemed to get better, and then died. We don't actually know
what he died of, but he was so underweight before being hit by the car,
that he just didn't have enough left to fight it off. His loss was the
hardest for me. It seemed so unfair to let a good cat die so young, and
just when he seemed to be getting better. But I also know that he got
the best love in those few weeks that we had him.

Abbey is very fortunate to have you, and I do believe you will know it
is time when that time comes. Hopefully, it won't be for many years.
Trust yourself, and know that we support you.
Lesley - 01 Jun 2005 11:47 GMT
I never regretted anything about that, he had a
very long, happy life.  Abbey has had only a short, happy life...which
I know is a lot more than a lot of other kitties get but she's still so

young.

I know exactly what you mean when we lost Fugazi it nearly broke both
our hearts (Dave wouldn't have cried as much if it were me I think!)
she was only 12, okay some people said that its a good age but it
didn't feel that old to us and also she became ill suddenly and it was
traumatic. Yet when her sister Isis passed on, she was well over 16 and
died peacefully at home and somehow that was a lot easier to bear

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
Karen - 29 May 2005 22:35 GMT
I'm so sorry to hear this. I will send good thoughts. I think you will know
when it is just "for you" and not "for her".  
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 22:43 GMT
> I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
> anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
> feel so inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive
> energy here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.

Candace,

Speak to your vet about Rutin (available from the Solgar Vitamin Co.,
Lynbrook, NY- and probably your local pharmacy)  at about 50 to 100 mg/kg
orally every 8 hr.   I can't say with absolute certainty that Rutin cured
our chylo cats by itself or if the chylo resolved spontaneously- but after a
few months of low-fat diets and thoracentesis as necessary to relieve
dyspnea and limit fibrosing pleuritis, both cats pulled through.

A U of Minn study done on 4 chylo cats showed clinical improvement in 3 and
*complete* resolution in 2 of the 4 cats-- So, I'd say its definitely worth
a shot.

Best hopes & wishes for you and Abbey.

Phil
Hopitus - 29 May 2005 22:47 GMT
Bless you and your long-time friends, Phil. I've never heard of this cat's
condition but you've given them a ray of hope.

>> I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
>> anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
[quoted text clipped - 123 lines]
>
> Phil
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 23:45 GMT
> Bless you and your long-time friends, Phil. I've never heard of this cat's
> condition but you've given them a ray of hope.

Thanks Hopitus.

Chylo is caused by leakage or extravasation of  chyle from a thoracic duct
or one its tiny branches- that's why surgical correction is so difficult.
Chylo is a real sneaky disease that's usually not detectable with routine
yearly exams- until its well established and the cat shows difficulty
breathing and weight loss.

I was sweating bullets during the entire Rutin therapy because the longer we
waited to see if the Rutin was working the greater the risk of the cat
developing irreversible fibrosing pleuritis from the constant exposure of
chyle. I was sure glad it all worked out- I never would have forgiven myself
if I made the wrong call.

How've ya been???

Phil
Candace - 30 May 2005 00:15 GMT
> Chylo is caused by leakage or extravasation of  chyle from a thoracic duct
> or one its tiny branches- that's why surgical correction is so difficult.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> chyle. I was sure glad it all worked out- I never would have forgiven myself
> if I made the wrong call.

Phil, what does this mean?  Can't she be tapped once she's on Rutin?
Or did you just mean that you couldn't *know* if the chyle was building
up?  Because if she's on Rutin and her breathing gets bad, I would want
her tapped again.  Nothing about Rutin contraindicates tapping, does
it?

Candace
Phil P. - 30 May 2005 00:47 GMT
> > Chylo is caused by leakage or extravasation of  chyle from a thoracic duct
> > or one its tiny branches- that's why surgical correction is so difficult.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Phil, what does this mean?  Can't she be tapped once she's on Rutin?

Sure, she can.

> Or did you just mean that you couldn't *know* if the chyle was building
> up?

I meant that I hoped I made the right call- rutin/taps/low-fat diet instead
of thoracic duct ligation surgery.

Because if she's on Rutin and her breathing gets bad, I would want
> her tapped again.  Nothing about Rutin contraindicates tapping, does
> it?

Absolutely not.  She'll probably need a couple or three taps until the chylo
resolves.

Sorry for not being clear- by brain is fried.  I'm inundated with kittens
plus I've been playing 'commando' with the cops in a town that prohibits
feeding and releasing ferals.

Hang in there!

Phil
Candace - 30 May 2005 00:58 GMT
> I meant that I hoped I made the right call- rutin/taps/low-fat diet instead
> of thoracic duct ligation surgery.

OIC, okay, I understand.

Unfortunately, she already has fibrosing pleuritis but the vet said she
could probably live with that if the chyle accumulation would stop.
She would just have limited lung capacity and should live a quiet life.
But she's an indoor cat and not subjected to much stress other than
one of her "brothers," who is aggressive but not toward her but toward
our other boy cat.  She mostly seems to find it all interesting to
watch.  We can keep her life quiet and peaceful, for the most part.

Candace
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 04:10 GMT
> > I meant that I hoped I made the right call- rutin/taps/low-fat diet instead
> > of thoracic duct ligation surgery.
>
> OIC, okay, I understand.
>
> Unfortunately, she already has fibrosing pleuritis

Was this confirmed by x-rays (i.e., rounded lung lobe borders or
constriction)?

but the vet said she
> could probably live with that if the chyle accumulation would stop.

Both of our cats had some degree of fibrosing pleuritis and they both did
well.  I didn't have a history on either cat, so, I don't know how long they
were chylo. But since they were strays for who knows how long and in a
shelter for at least a few weeks, my guess is they were chylo longer than
Abbey.  Knowing how observant and sensitive you are to your cat's behavior,
I don't think she's been chylo for very long. So, I wouldn't expect severe
fibrosis.

> She would just have limited lung capacity and should live a quiet life.
>  But she's an indoor cat and not subjected to much stress other than
> one of her "brothers," who is aggressive but not toward her but toward
> our other boy cat.  She mostly seems to find it all interesting to
> watch.  We can keep her life quiet and peaceful, for the most part.

Has she had an echocardiogram?  Right-sided CHF could cause chylo because it
causes an increase in systemic venous pressure which could cause the
lyphatics to leak.

Keep the faith.

Phil
Candace - 31 May 2005 05:58 GMT
> "Candace" <maccandace@aol.com> wrote in message

> > Unfortunately, she already has fibrosing pleuritis
>
> Was this confirmed by x-rays (i.e., rounded lung lobe borders or
> constriction)?

Yes, her lung borders are very rounded, I saw the x-rays.  The vet
originally said this made her prognosis "in the tank."

>But since they were strays for who knows how long and in a
> shelter for at least a few weeks, my guess is they were chylo longer than
> Abbey.  Knowing how observant and sensitive you are to your cat's >behavior, I don't think she's been chylo for very long. So, I wouldn't expect >severe fibrosis.

I don't know, I might have missed it.  She certainly never coughed or
panted but she has always seemed to have a high respiration rate, all
her life, so I might have missed something.

> Has she had an echocardiogram?  Right-sided CHF could cause chylo >because it
> causes an increase in systemic venous pressure which could cause the
> lyphatics to leak.

No, she hasn't had one.  I'm calling the vet tomorrow to ask about an
ultrasound or echocardiogram.  I don't know if I can afford both.

Thanks,
Candace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 31 May 2005 14:37 GMT
>I'm calling the vet tomorrow to ask about
>an ultrasound or echocardiogram. I don't
>know if I can afford both.

Don't worry. An echocardiogram uses ultrasound to examine the heart.
You'll only have to pay for one thing.

Megan

                                   
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Mary - 29 May 2005 23:01 GMT
>  Candace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> few months of low-fat diets and thoracentesis as necessary to relieve
> dyspnea and limit fibrosing pleuritis, both cats pulled through.

It this the rutin that is, along with hesperidin, part of C-complex?
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 23:46 GMT
> >  Candace,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> It this the rutin that is, along with hesperidin, part of C-complex?

Yup. Its an OTC.

P.
Mary - 30 May 2005 00:10 GMT
> > >  Candace,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Yup. Its an OTC.

And if I recall correctly its primary function is to strengthen the small
blood vessels--like the capillaries?
Phil P. - 30 May 2005 00:29 GMT
> > > >  Candace,
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> And if I recall correctly its primary function is to strengthen the small
> blood vessels--like the capillaries?

Eggzakly!

P.
Candace - 29 May 2005 23:05 GMT
> Speak to your vet about Rutin (available from the Solgar Vitamin Co.,
> Lynbrook, NY- and probably your local pharmacy)  at about 50 to 100 mg/kg
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Phil

Thanks, Phil.  Yes, we got some Rutin today.  I had read about it and
the vet said it wouldn't hurt.  They're big horse pills but we'll cut
them down and try to find a smaller pill meanwhile.  We're also going
to do Vitamin E to help the scarring.

A few months of thoracentesis?  Wow, I hope I can afford that.  Were
these cats diagnosed with idiopathic chylo or was there an underlying
cause determined?  That study makes me more determined to continue on
with the taps.  Maybe my vets will work something out with me...

Do you have an opinion about Vitamin E for the scarring?  The vet said
that wouldn't hurt either so we're trying that, too.  I guess at this
point nothing much "hurts."

Did your chylo cats stay on lasix, too?  Did they remain on it
permanently?  Do you have a link to the U of Minn study?  That is very
encouraging as is the fact that your 2 chylo cats resolved.

The one vet was going to give theophylline orally but the other vet
kind of talked him out of it and said it wouldn't really help.

Right now, I have to coax her to eat with a/d and I know that's high
fat.  Do you know of any tasty low fat diets?

Candace
Mary - 29 May 2005 23:12 GMT
"Candace" <maccandace@aol.com> wrote :

> Thanks, Phil.  Yes, we got some Rutin today.  I had read about it and
> the vet said it wouldn't hurt.  They're big horse pills but we'll cut
> them down and try to find a smaller pill meanwhile.  We're also going
> to do Vitamin E to help the scarring.

I wonder if the Rutin and the other things you need to give her
could be ground into a favorite food for the 18 days you will be
alone? Rutin and the other citrus bioflavonoids are present in
the white stuff inside an orange peel, so it should not taste bad.
(I ground my cat's Tapazole for about a week and put it in her
cat food but it tastes so bad she detected it and would not eat
it all.)

I'm worried about you trying to pill her by yourself for nearly
three weeks.
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 23:48 GMT
> "Candace" <maccandace@aol.com> wrote :
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> alone? Rutin and the other citrus bioflavonoids are present in
> the white stuff inside an orange peel,

Cats *hate* oranges and orange peels.  People put orange peels in flower
pots to keep the cats away.

P.
Mary - 30 May 2005 00:11 GMT
> > "Candace" <maccandace@aol.com> wrote :
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Cats *hate* oranges and orange peels.  People put orange peels in flower
> pots to keep the cats away.

I knew that, I guess I was just thinking that anything must
taste better than Tapazole judging from Buddha's reaction to it when I did
put it in her food.
Phil P. - 30 May 2005 00:31 GMT
> > > "Candace" <maccandace@aol.com> wrote :
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> taste better than Tapazole judging from Buddha's reaction to it when I did
> put it in her food.

As much as cats hate oranges- it still probably tastes better than Tapazole!
Mary - 30 May 2005 01:32 GMT
> As much as cats hate oranges- it still probably tastes better than Tapazole!

We've got to get Candace set up somehow to pill Abbey with
no help. I guess she could check for a pharmacist who could make
a liquid to add to her food, as I have been meaning to do?
Candace - 30 May 2005 00:04 GMT
> I wonder if the Rutin and the other things you need to give her
> could be ground into a favorite food for the 18 days you will be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm worried about you trying to pill her by yourself for nearly
> three weeks.

Me, too.  It makes me sick thinking about it.  It takes 2 of us to drag
her out from wherever she's hiding as, of course, she *knows* when
we're getting ready to pill her.  I already have half the house blocked
off from her but it's impossible to get rid of all the hidey holes.
Then we have to burrito wrap her so her paws are restricted.  Even
sick, she's a fighter.

I'll have to taste the Rutin and see if it tastes citrus-y.  Hope not.
The thing is she's not eating much right now and only eats a/d if I
spoon feed her so hiding the pills is hard as she is just licking at
the spoon.  Once she has her appetite back, I can try to stick it in
something but cats are just smarter than dogs and harder to trick.

I may have to get my neighbor to come in and help me round her up but I
think that would scare Abbey plus I really can't expect this woman to
do it in the mornings, maybe for the evening dose, but not the morning
one.

Candace
Christine Burel - 30 May 2005 16:06 GMT
Candace, I don't know if this might be useful for you but I have found a
compounding  pet pharmacy in Arizona that is very good -- my vet's office
found it for me and so far I've been very pleased with them.   They have the
ability to use all kinds of flavors for their meds; currently I'm giving two
of mine triple-fish-flavored clomipramine. They were very responsive to my
needs and shipped meds out for my cats without my having had to pay for them
first, which really impressed me, and I could pay by check when I received
the product. You could try talking to them:

Pet Health Pharmacy
Youngstown, AZ
1-800-742-0516

regards,
Christine

> > I wonder if the Rutin and the other things you need to give her
> > could be ground into a favorite food for the 18 days you will be
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Candace
Rhonda - 30 May 2005 17:05 GMT
Oooh, that turned my stomach so early in the morning! Cats, those
darling little carnivores.

Thanks for the info on the pharmacy, that could come in handy -- even
for our rabbits.

Take care,

Rhonda

>  currently I'm giving two
> of mine triple-fish-flavored clomipramine.
Mary - 30 May 2005 18:33 GMT
> Candace, I don't know if this might be useful for you but I have found a
> compounding  pet pharmacy in Arizona that is very good -- my vet's office
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Youngstown, AZ
> 1-800-742-0516

Yippee!! This is exactly what Candace needs! In fact I need to find one
near me.

> regards,
> Christine
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> >
> > Candace
Candace - 30 May 2005 19:08 GMT
> Pet Health Pharmacy
> Youngstown, AZ
> 1-800-742-0516

Thanks, Christine, I'll call them tomorrow.

Candace
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 23:55 GMT
> > Speak to your vet about Rutin (available from the Solgar Vitamin Co.,
> > Lynbrook, NY- and probably your local pharmacy)  at about 50 to 100 mg/kg
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the vet said it wouldn't hurt.  They're big horse pills but we'll cut
> them down and try to find a smaller pill meanwhile.

Cut 'em down and put the pieces in small gelcaps.

We're also going
> to do Vitamin E to help the scarring.

Great idea!

> A few months of thoracentesis?  Wow, I hope I can afford that.

Actually, trying to remember- it was about 2 months- and only 3 or 4 times-
it was awhile ago.

Were
> these cats diagnosed with idiopathic chylo or was there an underlying
> cause determined?

We never found the cause.  One vet thought it might have been caused by
trauma- but the thoracic duct heals pretty fast- usually within a week a two
and the chylo effusion usually resolves by itself without any treatment.
So, I don't think it was caused by trauma. There are many other possible
causes, but neither cat had any evidence of any of them.

That study makes me more determined to continue on
> with the taps.  Maybe my vets will work something out with me...

Before Abbey has another thoracentesis, you might want to do an ultrasound-
the chyle actually *helps*- it acts like an "accoustic window" and enhances
the images.  Plus, you can tilt the body to move the chyle where you want it
to get a really good image.  You might find the 'leak' or at least from
where the chyle is seeping.  It might not be a hole but rather seeping
through the TD wall.  If you can pinpoint the location of the seepage- TD
ligation wouldn't be that difficult.

> Do you have an opinion about Vitamin E for the scarring?  The vet said
> that wouldn't hurt either so we're trying that, too.  I guess at this
> point nothing much "hurts."

I didn't try it- but it sure sounds like a good idea!  I wish one of us
would have thought of it!

> Did your chylo cats stay on lasix, too?  Did they remain on it
> permanently?

No. The chylo resolved completely.

Do you have a link to the U of Minn study?  That is very
> encouraging as is the fact that your 2 chylo cats resolved.

Here's the abstract with the journal citation.  Your vet should have the
original journal with the full text study.

"J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Aug 1;215(3):345-8, 339

Use of rutin for medical management of idiopathic chylothorax in four cats.

Thompson MS, Cohn LA, Jordan RC

Department of Veterinary Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary
Medicine,

University of Missouri-Columbia 65211, USA.

Four cats with idiopathic chylothorax were given rutin. Three of the 4 cats
had clinical improvement, and complete resolution of chylous effusion was
evident in 2 cats. Idiopathic chylothorax in cats is a condition that may be
difficult to resolve with medical or surgical treatment. Currently, thoracic
duct ligation is considered the preferred technique, but expense and a
guarded prognosis for

resolution may make this procedure undesirable to cat owners. Rutin
administration may offer an alternative to traditional treatments or may be
useful as an adjunctive treatment.

PMID: 10434971, UI: 99363829"

> The one vet was going to give theophylline orally but the other vet
> kind of talked him out of it and said it wouldn't really help.

Theophylline is a bronchial dilator and may also dilate veins and the TD-
which may not be such a good idea.  Removing even a tiny amount of chyle
improves ventilation dramatically.

> Right now, I have to coax her to eat with a/d and I know that's high
> fat.  Do you know of any tasty low fat diets?

"Tasty low fat-fat diet"?? I don't know of any.  I mixed a little catnip in
r/d- the cats ate enough of it.

Keep the faith!

Best hopes & wishes,

Phil
Candace - 30 May 2005 00:11 GMT
> "J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Aug 1;215(3):345-8, 339

Thanks!

> Theophylline is a bronchial dilator and may also dilate veins and the TD-
> which may not be such a good idea.  Removing even a tiny amount of chyle
> improves ventilation dramatically.

Ew, I hope the aminophylline injection they gave didn't dilate the TD.

Please see my other question to you uinder Hopitus' reply.  Thank you
for your help.

Candace
Elle - 30 May 2005 02:01 GMT
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > "J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Aug 1;215(3):345-8, 339

I was trying to find this free on the net (or via my public library's online
service), but so far no luck.

I suppose you've googled already, but if not, there is quite a lot on
{chylothorax, rutin cats}. Many sites reference the rutin "cure" and Phil's
article. Here's another journal article, dated 2004, that reports good
results with rutin, with details on dose and some discussion of Phil's 1999
article:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539228
Philip - 30 May 2005 02:51 GMT
>> Phil P. wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> reports good results with rutin, with details on dose and some
> discussion of Phil's 1999 article:

http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/chylothorax.html

The short version written for the cat owner.
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539228 
Candace - 30 May 2005 02:52 GMT
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539228

Thanks, Elle, that was a great article.  It sounds a lot like Abbey's
case re: age, etc.  I have googled but I didn't find that one yet.

Candace
Catnipped - 29 May 2005 22:43 GMT
<snip>
> I guess at some point, TBD, when/if it happens again, when I take her
> in, I will have to choose euthanasia instead of the draining.  If you
> feel so inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive
> energy here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.
>
> Candace

Candace, I'm very sorry to hear that Abbey is so gravely ill.  Personally, I
don't think you should be flamed for not having unlimited funds to keep her
alive, not to mention the fact that it may only be prolonging her pain.  I
know we've had our differences in the past, but sincere best wishes and
positive energy are heading your way for Abbey from me and my four (who will
get extra loving and scritches today in honor of Abbey).

Hugs,

CatNipped
Mary - 29 May 2005 23:05 GMT
> <snip>
> > I guess at some point, TBD, when/if it happens again, when I take her
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> don't think you should be flamed for not having unlimited funds to keep her
> alive, not to mention the fact that it may only be prolonging her pain.

Nobody does that here. Everyone understands, tacitly, that each and
every one of us has our financial limits. Not the same thing as someone
beginning a thread entitled something like "What is Your Limit," which
I found disgusting. Also not the same as flaming people for just NOT
TAKING their animals to the vet when they are sick. Nobody has
limitless resources.

I
> know we've had our differences in the past, but sincere best wishes and
> positive energy are heading your way for Abbey from me and my four (who will
> get extra loving and scritches today in honor of Abbey).

I hope the rutin Phil mentioned will do some good. I wonder if
our Resident Gargoyle Megan "I demand an Apology" zuzu22@webtv.net
has any suggestions. Poor baby Abbey--to have come through so much
to have this to contend with. My heart goes out to Candace.
Candace - 29 May 2005 23:17 GMT
> I hope the rutin Phil mentioned will do some good. I wonder if
> our Resident Gargoyle Megan "I demand an Apology" zuzu22@webtv.net
> has any suggestions. Poor baby Abbey--to have come through so much
> to have this to contend with. My heart goes out to Candace.

Thank you, Mary.  Yes, I have the Rutin for Abbey.  Megan had a cat
with chylothorax, too, Omar.  He is now deceased.  I read her posts
from then.  Omar had an underlying condition causing his chylothorax, I
believe, and his chylo was controlled with lasix, if I remember
correctly, but he did ultimately die of his other condition.  I think
it was HCM but I can't recall right now.

If there is a treatable underlying condition, the chylo can go away
once the other condition is taken care of.  In Abbey's case, there is
no apparent cause so we can only hope it resolves spontaneously.
Trauma is a big cause but Abbey has only been an indoor cat since we
got her and I certainly can't imagine that she could have sustained
that bad of an injury around the house that I wouldn't have noticed.
She and Scottie run and chase each other sometimes and I suppose she
could have tumbled off something but I doubt it could do that damage.

She is a little baby, she still sort of has that kitten look to her.

Candace
Mary - 29 May 2005 23:26 GMT
> > I hope the rutin Phil mentioned will do some good. I wonder if
> > our Resident Gargoyle Megan "I demand an Apology" zuzu22@webtv.net
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with chylothorax, too, Omar.  He is now deceased.  I read her posts
> from then.

That was a great idea. Megan leaves no stone unturned and surely
took very good care of Omar.

>Omar had an underlying condition causing his chylothorax, I
> believe, and his chylo was controlled with lasix, if I remember
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> once the other condition is taken care of.  In Abbey's case, there is
> no apparent cause so we can only hope it resolves spontaneously.

My fervent hope is that your baby Abbey is young enough that her
very youth will give her strength to fight this. Let's hope that an
underlying condition--not too bad--emerges that can be treated.

> Trauma is a big cause but Abbey has only been an indoor cat since we
> got her and I certainly can't imagine that she could have sustained
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> She is a little baby, she still sort of has that kitten look to her.

This would just kill me, Candace. Please pardon me for being
a shithead to you today. (It's so stupid, it's just force of habit
at this point.)

Keep your chin up and know that everyone here will be looking
around and asking around to see if we can find any information
at all that could help you and Abbey.
Candace - 29 May 2005 23:46 GMT
> That was a great idea. Megan leaves no stone unturned and surely
> took very good care of Omar.

Yes, no matter what anyone may think of Megan for other reasons (I like
her personally), I think everyone would agree she is a wonderful cat
advocate and not just for her own cats.

> This would just kill me, Candace. Please pardon me for being
> a shithead to you today. (It's so stupid, it's just force of habit
> at this point.)

Okay, you made me laugh.  I enjoy "bantering" and outright flaming
myself, at times.  It can be entertaining.

> Keep your chin up and know that everyone here will be looking
> around and asking around to see if we can find any information
> at all that could help you and Abbey.

Thank you to you and everyone else who responded: Karen, Kelly, Elle,
Phil, CN, Hopitus, all of you.  I'm sure positive energy can help.

Candace
Mary - 30 May 2005 02:51 GMT
> > That was a great idea. Megan leaves no stone unturned and surely
> > took very good care of Omar.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thank you to you and everyone else who responded: Karen, Kelly, Elle,
> Phil, CN, Hopitus, all of you.  I'm sure positive energy can help.

P.S. I'm sure your panties are perfectly nice and not at all
granny underpants. :)
Catnipped - 29 May 2005 23:19 GMT
> > <snip>
> > > I guess at some point, TBD, when/if it happens again, when I take her
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Nobody does that here. Everyone understands, tacitly, that each and
> every one of us has our financial limits.

That's good.

> Not the same thing as someone
> beginning a thread entitled something like "What is Your Limit," which
> I found disgusting. Also not the same as flaming people for just NOT
> TAKING their animals to the vet when they are sick. Nobody has
> limitless resources.

Yep.

> I
> > know we've had our differences in the past, but sincere best wishes and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> has any suggestions. Poor baby Abbey--to have come through so much
> to have this to contend with. My heart goes out to Candace.

Mine too.  Despite our differences here on the group, *everyone* (excluding
trolls - you know who you are) deeply love and care about our cats.  Knowing
how it feels to experience the pain of losing a beloved pet transcends silly
past arguments and flame wars and makes anyone with a heart feel bad for the
person who may be losing their furry little one.

Hugs,

CatNipped
Candace - 29 May 2005 23:07 GMT
> I know we've had our differences in the past, but sincere best wishes and
> positive energy are heading your way for Abbey from me and my four (who will
> get extra loving and scritches today in honor of Abbey).

Thank you, CN.
KellyH - 29 May 2005 23:22 GMT
>I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
> anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> thoracic wall where lymphatic fluids from the digestive system (chyle)
> seep into the pleural cavity so there is a large fluid buildup.

<snip>

Candace, I am so sorry!  I will be sending positive thoughts to you and
Abbey.  I understand about having to decide when to stop.  I went through
the same thing with Dash.  She kept crashing, and I could take her to the
vet's for fluids/IV (I was doing sub-q at home, but with her diarrhea, it
wasn't helping like an IV would).  She would perk up after the vet stay, but
crash again in a week or two.  I'm sure I could have done that for quite a
while longer, but I didn't think Dash would want to live like that.
You do what you feel is best for Abbey.  Again, I'm very sorry about this.

Take care.

-Kelly
sriddles@aol.com - 30 May 2005 00:08 GMT
> I guess at some point, TBD, when/if it happens again, when I take her
> in, I will have to choose euthanasia instead of the draining.  If you
> feel so inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive
> energy here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.
>
> Candace

Hang in there Candace. I have been thinking about Abbey and hoping for
a miracle. I'm really glad you posted her story--I was really hoping
Phil would have some answers for you.

Sherry
Candace - 30 May 2005 00:22 GMT
sridd...@aol.com wrote:

> Hang in there Candace. I have been thinking about Abbey and hoping for
> a miracle. I'm really glad you posted her story--I was really hoping
> Phil would have some answers for you.

Yes, and he did.  I feel a little encouraged.  I wanted to see what
other people said; I guess I was ready to get feedback now and everyone
has been nice.

Thank you, she'll gladly accept a miracle.

Candace
Phil P. - 30 May 2005 00:33 GMT
> sridd...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thank you, she'll gladly accept a miracle.

Miracles are cats' specialty!

Phil
mlbriggs - 30 May 2005 00:55 GMT
> I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want anyone
> telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second guess my
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive energy
> here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.

> Candace

Sending prayers that she doesn't suffer..  I, personally, would rather not
put  my beloved pet through  painful procedures especially if there is
little chance for recovery.  Prayers for you to make the right decision.  
MLB
Candace - 30 May 2005 01:03 GMT
> Sending prayers that she doesn't suffer..  I, personally, would rather not
> put  my beloved pet through  painful procedures especially if there is
> little chance for recovery.  Prayers for you to make the right decision.
> MLB

I absolutely agree and that's why I won't have the surgery or a
semi-permanent chest tube placed.  However, this chest tapping does not
appear to be painful.  I think she may be slightly uncomfortable after
it for a couple of days, you know, sore from having the needle stuck in
and the chyle removed but I truly don't think she is in bad pain.  And
then, she feels totally wonderful for a couple of weeks.  If the
tapping has to be done too frequently or if there doesn't appear to be
any quality time derived from it, I won't continue.

I absolutely feel that death is not the worst thing, suffering is.

Thank you for the prayers.

Candace
Annie Wxill - 30 May 2005 01:04 GMT
...>  If you
> feel so inclined, she is accepting prayers, good thoughts, and positive
> energy here in Phoenix, if you want to send some her way.
>
> Candace
Candace,
You are doing everything you can.  That is all you can do. There is no doubt
in my mind that you will continue to do what you are able.  You cannot do
what your are not able to do.
We all have different resources, financial, emotional, time, etc. Abbey also
has her own resources, and you are the best one to determine what they are.
Only you can decide when you will be doing more *to* Abbey than *for* her.
I know the decisions will not be easy, but you will make it with your
heart.
You saved Abbey from an early death and give her a good home with love and
care.  Take comfort in that.
If you can provide the name and how to contact the vet, I'd be willing to
make contribution.  It won't be much, but maybe it will help relieve some of
your worry.
Meanwhile, healing prayers are on the way for Abbey and prayers for strength
for you.
Hugs,
Annie
Mary - 30 May 2005 01:30 GMT
> If you can provide the name and how to contact the vet, I'd be willing to
> make contribution.

I would too.
Candace - 30 May 2005 01:40 GMT
> > If you can provide the name and how to contact the vet, I'd be willing to
> > make contribution.
>
> I would too.

Thank you, Mary, but it's really not necessary.  I'm sorry I gave the
wrong impression, there are still funds available but it just worries
me to run the bill up and up if there is no hope.  But there is some
hope for now and there are funds for now so I should just think
positive thoughts that she is on the road to being better and try not
to worry about what may not even happen.  I appreciate your offer but
it's really okay.

Candace
Mary - 30 May 2005 01:45 GMT
> > > If you can provide the name and how to contact the vet, I'd be willing to
> > > make contribution.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to worry about what may not even happen.  I appreciate your offer but
> it's really okay.

I understand. I just meant if it gets to be a bit much and you want to
keep on, that is all.
Candace - 30 May 2005 01:30 GMT
> If you can provide the name and how to contact the vet, I'd be willing to
> make contribution.  It won't be much, but maybe it will help relieve some of
> your worry.
> Meanwhile, healing prayers are on the way for Abbey and prayers for >strength for you.
> Hugs,
> Annie

Annie, that's very kind of you but it's not necessary.  I don't mean
that I'm at the end of my resources yet but I do worry about that
amount of money when the prognosis is not good and $800 per visit is a
bit steep.  I can go on with her treatment for awhile but I'm not sure
if that's the best thing to go on indefinitely.  I will continue to do
so for awhile, though, as long as she seems to improve after the
tappings.  I just worry a little that I might put myself into big debt
rather than let her go.  But it's not at that point yet so I should try
to stay in the present more rather than worrying about the future
(that's a problem of mine).

I truly appreciate what you offered but it is not necessary.

I will definitely accept the prayers for both of us, though, and thank
you very much.

Candace
Annie Wxill - 30 May 2005 14:07 GMT
> I will definitely accept the prayers for both of us, though, and thank
> you very much.
> Candace
You've got it.  You and Abbey will remain in my thoughts and prayers.
Annie
Innovo - 30 May 2005 01:23 GMT
> I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
> anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
>
> Candace

**Candace,

I'm so sorry. Sounds like you are doing the absolute best you can for her
and that's plenty. I would offer to come over and help you pill her ( I know
what a total bear that can be), but I'm in FL ;-(.

I'll be praying for you and Abbey. You'll instintively know when, and if, it
is time, and that could be years from now, or maybe months. You sound like a
very good Mom, so she's certainly in good hands. As far as some of the
irritating flamers and 'know it alls" here, who act like they are so perfect
and high and mighty..forget about em!  Just ignore em the best you can, and
if necessary, remind yourself that some people simply have no mannors and/or
tact.

God bless and keep doing what your doing for her..loving her!

ML
Candace - 30 May 2005 01:34 GMT
> God bless and keep doing what your doing for her..loving her!

Thank you, ML, and as for the flamers, there have been none.  Everyone
is very nice and supportive and helpful.

Candace
John Ross Mc Master - 30 May 2005 02:24 GMT
My Cinder sends purrs and I send prayers.
PawsForThought - 30 May 2005 02:28 GMT
Candace, I am so sorry to hear about your cat :(  Best wishes for you
and Abbey.

Hugs,
Lauren
Christine Burel - 30 May 2005 03:40 GMT
Candace, my heartfelt sympathies and purrs for your and Abbey's situation --
please know we're thinking of you.
Christine and Omar, Oreo, Midnight, Robin & Tucker
> I haven't felt like posting on here primarily because I don't want
> anyone telling me I'm not doing enough for my cat or making me second
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
>
> Candace
Rhonda - 30 May 2005 17:03 GMT
Candace,

What a shock to have happen to your baby! I can't believe she hid some
of the symptoms for awhile.

I know animals are so good at just doing their best, and not feeling
sorry for themselves. Abbey sounds like a real trooper.

I will send lots of good vibes for her, hoping she can turn the corner
and start getting over this.

Take care,

Rhonda

> Abbey had no symptoms that we noticed until 3 and a half weeks ago.  I
> came home from work on a Thurs. night and she was breathing very oddly,
> rapidly and shallowly.
 
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