Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2005
Perils of Seeing the Vet NOW w/OUT Becoming Informed
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Elle - 29 May 2005 18:50 GMT One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John McMaster on May 13):
--- John McMaster: ... the advice to visit a vet NOW is always good.
Elle: By itself, no, it can be fatal. ---
I didn't see subsequent requests to respond. I am not always subscribed to this group, coming and going as I please. Indeed, I did not post again to the group for a couple of weeks after this exchange.
The reason a visit to the vet by itself could be fatal is because one is led to trust that the vet is doing everything he/she can for one's cat. As one example, and as some of you may recall, I trusted my vet when he recommended anesthesizing my cat and drawing blood for testing on a recent Monday afternoon. I called the next morning and said my cat was much worse; could they please call me as soon as they could with the blood results.
According to the fax containing the blood results, the vet got the blood results back (from a lab some 950 miles away) about 9:30 AM. Several values were critical. (A number of people have confirmed this for me, along with my own reading.) I sat by my sick cat and the phone waiting all that morning and part of the afternoon to hear some kind of diagnosis or just the blood results. The vet didn't call me until 1:30 PM. When he did, he didn't indicate the values were life threatening. My cat suffered and was dead 23 hours later. As I have posted, I take responsibility for my role in this. I also feel my former vet also bears significant responsibility for my cat's suffering.
A week or a few days later, I discussed this at the Feline Diabetes Message Board. A number of people at the board, including one veterinarian, agreed that at a miminum a letter to the vet voicing my concerns above was appropriate, the purpose being to educate, not threaten.
I feel an informed patient (or guardian of a patient) may be the best way to ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:05 GMT snip
> According to the fax containing the blood results, the vet got the > blood results back (from a lab some 950 miles away) about 9:30 AM. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > former vet also bears significant responsibility for my cat's > suffering. snip
> I feel an informed patient (or guardian of a patient) may be the best > way to ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, > ever blindly trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13. Blood tests are tiered. Same as human blood panels. The general purpose panel is only looking for things like platelet counts, liver enzymes, CO2 levels ... the basics. Then you have more comprehensive panels (thyroid, serum glucose, etc) which of course vets justify charging more money for and *may* take longer to perform. It's entirely possible your vet did not order a sufficiently comprehensive blood panel that would have identified your cat's problem. And even then, there are limits to what blood panels can reveal. People die every day with blood numbers that are all within normal ranges.
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:34 GMT > Elle wrote: > snip [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > a sufficiently comprehensive blood panel that would have identified your > cat's problem. Phil,
As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid problems, blood glucose, potassium etc. The results of the blood panel indicated my cat had diabetes (so the vet diagnosed, any way). The vet never tested for ketones. Like I wrote, a number of people with expertise in cat blood panels said the values (which I posted) were critical. Ketone testing shoudl have been done. Plus I have done my own reading to confirm this. It's not rocket science. But for a busy vet, it is more than he can handle.
The cat's symptoms Monday were loss of weight, appetite, and lethargy. Those by themselves for a senior cat should have made him suspicious. IF I had asked here, I think someone would have said diabetes (among other things) was a possibility. I would have gone reading up on it, and it might have sunk in that in fact my cat had been urinating more in the last several months, and his urine kitty litter clumps were sticky, indicating high sugar in the urine. If I had become more informed, I might have felt pretty confident it was diabetes by Monday night.
I don't have a problem with the Tuesday 9:30 AM arrival of the blood results. I do object when red flags (I do mean many OUT OF SPEC values) come up on a blood report and the vet doesn't get back to me for four hours, despite my saying first thing in the morning my cat was much sicker. I also object to his not saying my cat was in, or at least potentially in, a life-threatening way and so the cat should be tested for ketones. If I had even known he was in a life-threatening way, I could have googled for signs of impending death (there are some very specific tipoffs) and ended my cats suffering much sooner.
Related aside: Phil, I do think we are in more agreement than disagreement on the subject of the health care industry plugging stuff that is not efficacious but more to increase vets/MDs/insurers income. Always nice to meet another person who has done some thought on these issues and, with so many others in this country, knows the health care/insurance system needs serious reform.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:57 GMT >> Blood tests are tiered. Same as human blood panels. The general >> purpose panel is only looking for things like platelet counts, liver [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > my own reading to confirm this. It's not rocket science. But for a > busy vet, it is more than he can handle. snip
> Related aside: Phil, I do think we are in more agreement than > disagreement on the subject of the health care industry plugging > stuff that is not efficacious but more to increase vets/MDs/insurers > income. Always nice to meet another person who has done some thought > on these issues and, with so many others in this country, knows the > health care/insurance system needs serious reform. Busy vet? LOL That's a joke. We're talking about 2-4 small viles of blood draw that take about five minutes to perform. My personal condition requires a blood panel every 60 days. The vampire takes 4 viles of blood ... guessing 6-8 ounces total. I am in/out in 5-7 minutes.
You and I *are* on the same page. If there was disagreement, I missed it.
Elle - 29 May 2005 20:04 GMT "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote E wrote
> > But for a > > busy vet, it is more than he can handle. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > requires a blood panel every 60 days. The vampire takes 4 viles of blood > ... guessing 6-8 ounces total. I am in/out in 5-7 minutes. Phil, my cat had always been uncooperative at the vet's. Even in my cat's weakened state on that Monday in March, neither I nor the vet could lay a hand on him to do a proper examination. He was fierce and growling. (Of course when he used to get home, he would sache' out of his carrier and start purring right away. That is, back when he was alive.)
As I mentioned, my cat had to be anesthesized in order to have blood drawn. It would be too dangerous, otherwise, for the cat and the staff. I had no objection to the vet's recommendation to anesthesize him (at no small cost, but so it goes).
On Tuesday, the only plausible explanation I have for the vet's not calling me sooner is that he was busy.
> You and I *are* on the same page. If there was disagreement, I missed it. Okay.
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 21:28 GMT > > Elle wrote: > > snip [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > way to ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, > > > ever blindly trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13. <snip>
> As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid problems, > blood glucose, potassium etc. The results of the blood panel indicated my > cat had diabetes (so the vet diagnosed, any way). The vet never tested for > ketones. Like I wrote, a number of people with expertise in cat blood panels > said the values (which I posted) were critical. Ketone testing shoudl have > been done. As soon as the vet received the results indicating diabetes, he should have immediately tested your cat's *urine* for ketones since ketonuria will often precede detectable ketonemia. Ketonuria is easily and quickly detectable with urine dipsticks in the office in a matter of minutes.
In fact, after your discription of symptons, your vet should have suspected diabetes and *immediately* checked your cat's blood glucose *on the spot*- all it takes is a simple, inexpensive human glucometer and about 15 seconds. If your cat tested hyperglycemic, he should have immediately checked the urine for glucose and ketones. Stress hyperglycemia ("white coat effect"/traveling) usually doesn't produce glucosuria or ketonuria.
IOW, after a simple exam and simple in-house tests, the vet could have taken life-saving measures that would have probably saved your cat's life.
Phil P. (the prick- not to be confused with Philip the a.shole)
Elle - 29 May 2005 21:34 GMT "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote E wrote snip
> > As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid > problems, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > urine for glucose and ketones. Stress hyperglycemia ("white coat > effect"/traveling) usually doesn't produce glucosuria or ketonuria. Yup, yup, yup... As I learned.
Hence the letter I sent him asking why he didn't do these things.
> IOW, after a simple exam and simple in-house tests, the vet could have taken > life-saving measures that would have probably saved your cat's life. > > Phil P. (the prick- not to be confused with Philip the a.shole) lol
I shall try to make the distinction between Phils, and start fresh with each in each new thread, harboring no past, childish grudges, and promoting always good health for cats and their guardians.
Elle (the obstinate, but I hope always rationally)
Candace - 29 May 2005 19:11 GMT > One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some > requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly > trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13. I'm sorry about your cat. I agree with you. It's always beneficial to do your own research in health matters, whether they're your own, or a loved one's, including your animals. Your life or your pet's life is most important to you. No doctor or vet is going to feel as strongly about it as you do. Sometimes, though, unfortunately, we can't get the info in time or we just can't get it at all. It does sound as though what your vet did was very negligent but we are conditioned to trust the medical/veterinary profession and think they know what's best and, obviously, that isn't always true. If you have a vet or doctor you trust, that's very good, but you should always be as informed about your own or your pet's condition as you can be.
Candace
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:38 GMT > Elle wrote: > > One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'm sorry about your cat. Thank you, Candace. People here and at the Feline Diabetes Message Board were very nice here and helpful.
> I agree with you. It's always beneficial to > do your own research in health matters, whether they're your own, or a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > trust, that's very good, but you should always be as informed about > your own or your pet's condition as you can be. Well said. I agree sometimes there's nothing that can be done. Also, assigning blame (financial or otherwise) is rarely helpful. I think education--mine and the vet's--can be, though.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:42 GMT snip
> Your life or your pet's life is > most important to you. No doctor or vet is going to feel as strongly > about it as you do. snip
> Candace "Feeling strongly" should not be part of a veterinary's decision making process as emotions cloud making good decisions.
Candace - 29 May 2005 19:57 GMT > snip > > Your life or your pet's life is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Feeling strongly" should not be part of a veterinary's decision making > process as emotions cloud making good decisions. What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do." You may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world who knows your condition inside out but, when it comes down to it, at the end of the day he's going to go home and be with his family and live his own life...*you* are the one who has the illness, it's obviously going to affect you more than it affects him/her.
My vets are compassionate and informed and seem to care about my sick kitty a lot but, right now, they're home with their families having their holiday weekends and enjoying themselves, I presume (as they should be) and I'm here looking at my cat and wondering what the future holds for her. It's her and me that are going to be affected.
Candace
Philip - 29 May 2005 20:41 GMT >> snip >>> Your life or your pet's life is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly > or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do." He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally invested in your emotions.
> You > may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world > who knows your condition inside out but, when it comes down to it, at > the end of the day he's going to go home and be with his family and > live his own life...*you* are the one who has the illness, it's > obviously going to affect you more than it affects him/her. How self centered you are. How many people like you with a sick kitty do you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for however many years the vet has been in practice? Hmmmn? Do you think there is no cumulative effect on the vet's mental health? He/she cannot afford to get invested in your emotional drama to the degree you'd like.
> My vets are compassionate and informed and seem to care about my sick > kitty a lot but, right now, they're home with their families having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Candace This too shall pass.
Elle - 29 May 2005 20:49 GMT "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote C wrote snip
> > What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly > > or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do." > > He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor > with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally > invested in your emotions. I think you need to see the film "The Doctor," (with William Hurt) Philip.
The main theme is that doctors who immunize themselves from their patients' suffering in fact give worse care.
There is a middle ground.
> > You > > may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > effect on the vet's mental health? He/she cannot afford to get invested in > your emotional drama to the degree you'd like. You're being presumptuous, Phil.
Philip - 29 May 2005 21:36 GMT > "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote > C wrote [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The main theme is that doctors who immunize themselves from their > patients' suffering in fact give worse care. It's JUST a movie ... not an instructive course on guerilla mental health for healthcare professionals.
> There is a middle ground. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > You're being presumptuous, Phil. Let the lurking vets here pipe up if I am in gross error.
MK - 30 May 2005 17:33 GMT >> "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote >> C wrote [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Let the lurking vets here pipe up if I am in gross error. This was just a bad situation all around. I responded to the original post on this a couple of months back. It is easy to sit back and take potshots in hindsight on a case like this. The cat may have fared better if a couple simple things had happened:
In house bloodwork. Sending the blood to an outside lab was not a bad thing, regardless of the distance to the lab. The samples are all Fed-Exed and the results faxed back, so the lab could have been in Zimbabwe for all we care. The results were still back in plenty of time. Actually, sending it out at 4pm or so and getting results back the next morning is as good as it gets for an outside lab. The benefit of an outside lab is that you get more information for the same or often less cost than in house. In house bloodwork would have told you right away that you needed to check the urine. In a non-cooperative cat like this, hopefully you were able to get some while it was anesthetized, otherwise you've got to re-anesthetize him. As it stood the cat was at home, and not at the clinic and needed to come back to have a urinalysis done.
Recheck exam. So the next morning Elle calls and says the cat is much worse. She should have been instructed by the staff to bring the cat in asap, or the staff should have told the vet right then, and s/he instructed Elle to bring cat back asap. I don't know what actually happened, but those are questions that come to mind. Supportive care and additional bloodwork may have helped at that stage. Also, after the first dose of insulin was given and the cat's weakness was reported to the veterinarian, a recheck should have been urged by the veterinarian.
Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic. It's possible the cat didn't even have diabetes and giving insulin to an already sick cat caused fatal hypoglycemia. Another possibility is that anesthesia in a sick and possibly dehydrated, hypovolemic cat caused a serious enough drop in blood pressure to result in acute renal failure due to hypoxia. You can come up with several plausible scenarios. In over ten years as a veterinarian, I have seen many cats with similar symptoms and completely normal bloodwork. Even in the cases with moderate glucose elevations such as this, a significant portion of those are due to stress alone.
Diabetes, and especially diabetic ketoacidosis, in an un-cooperative, aggressive cat is a veterinarian's nightmare. The stress response makes doing an accurate glucose curve next to impossible. DKA usually requires repeated blood draws and administration of regular insulin hourly or every few hours. On a cat with a temperment such as this, treatment is a challenge to say the least. So even if it did turn out to be DKA, treatment would have been no picnic.
I actually like it when clients look stuff up on the internet. Heck, I often give them the website addresses myself. I don't mind if clients question what steps we're taking or not taking. That said, I don't have much tolerance for snide, condescending, intimidating, suspicious, or superior attitudes from clients or anyone else. We are all human beings doing the best we can. Be respectful of me, and I'll be respectful of you. I have noticed that when clients try to self diagnose on the internet, they suffer from tunnel vision. They lack the perspective that veterinary school and years of practice provide. They focus on a few possibilities without realizing it may be something entirely different. That's not to say they aren't right sometimes.
Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients everyday. Sometimes we are juggling several sick patients at the same time. It's not easy, and it takes a lot of diligence to make sure that mistakes don't happen. We also deal with many different types of clients. I think that gets forgotten on this board. Posters seem to think that most of our clients are like them. The vast majority are not. They are not well educated on the various health concerns of their pet, they don't want to do everything humanly possible, regardless of cost to save their pet, etc. Part of my job is to figure out, under often emotional circumstances, what level of care the client wants. It can be difficult to shift gears from people that are reluctant to have basic care done to working with someone that will spare no expense. By all means, pay attention to what your veterinarian is doing or not doing and ask questions. After all, you are both on the same side.
No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed questions. or do your own research. I would hope for nothing less from my clients. Stating that seeing the vet now without "becoming informed" may be fatal to your cat is irresponsible. Spending time looking up potentially mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may also be fatal to your cat. There is no perfect solution.
MK DVM
Philip - 30 May 2005 18:09 GMT >>> "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote >>> C wrote [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > be fatal to your cat. There is no perfect solution. > MK DVM MK, thank you for stepping up to the plate. :^) In my short tenure in this forum, I've met some sensible people and a greater number of the emotional WHACK jobs you have to deal with. Unlike people doctors, nearly all your "patients" are really two patients. The animal AND the owner. Ever want to anesthetize both? ;^)
John Ross Mc Master - 30 May 2005 18:20 GMT 1chip-state1@earthlink.net IP # 64.203.38.114
OrgAbuseName: ABUSE TEAM OrgAbusePhone: +1-404-815-0770 OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
Elle - 30 May 2005 19:28 GMT > This was just a bad situation all around. Does this mean you feel my former vet probably did no wrong?
> I responded to the original post > on this a couple of months back. I posted my former cat's blood results at alt.med.veterinary . You asked more questions but didn't make any other notable commentary. I responded at length to all your questions. Then you failed to respond further.
> It is easy to sit back and take potshots > in hindsight on a case like this. The cat may have fared better if a couple [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Elle to bring cat back asap. I don't know what actually happened, but those > are questions that come to mind. They did neither of these things.
Why don't you say something about the four-hour delay between the arrival of the out-of-spec bloodwork and contacting me, AFTER I'd called around 8:30 AM and said the cat was much worse? *&^%$
> Supportive care and additional bloodwork > may have helped at that stage. Also, after the first dose of insulin was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A > single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic. Of course, but I have listed other symptoms and other out-of-spec numbers on the blood that seem to me to confirm it. The sticky clumps of kitty litter, for instance. Which I did not recognize without the benefit of hindsight.
I don't reject any of your hypotheses.
I do dispute any claim of yours that the cat should not have been checked for ketones.
snip
> Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients > everyday. I have also pointed this out and resent your not acknowledging it.
It's one large reason why I didn't make a bigger fuss about this, but simply sent a letter saying I was at fault, but I felt he (the vet) was at fault, too, particularly for not recognizing a suffering cat and advising on this. In the letter I recommended specific education points. You may take this as condescending to the vet. There is no non-condescending way to recommend a person get further education on points X, Y, and Z.
> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't > make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may > also be fatal to your cat. There is no perfect solution. I don't think much of your attitude, particularly when it discourages people from learning. It's the typical blind loyalty to one's brethren attitude. In fact, plenty of health care professionals have mis-guided information themselves.
Plus, you yourself didn't follow up to my response to your questions at alt.med.veterinary . That's not a crime. It is unprofessional.
I think you should thank people like me for not hauling the vet I had into court.
Philip - 30 May 2005 19:36 GMT snip
>> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If >> things don't make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Plus, you yourself didn't follow up to my response to your questions > at alt.med.veterinary . That's not a crime. It is unprofessional. snip
Elle.... MK mentioned he encouraged some owners (in fact gave them websites) to educate themselves. Secondly, you are not a PAYING CUSTOMER of MK's so your unfulfilled expectations of MK on another forum are unreasonable.
John Ross Mc Master - 30 May 2005 21:40 GMT 1chip-state1@earthlink.net IP # 64.203.38.114
OrgAbuseName: ABUSE TEAM OrgAbusePhone: +1-404-815-0770 OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
MK - 31 May 2005 03:51 GMT >> This was just a bad situation all around. > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > I think you should thank people like me for not hauling the vet I had into > court. Did your vet probably do no wrong? I can't say, because I wasn't there, but if the cat was progressively deteriorating, a recheck exam recommendation would have seemed reasonable. I'm fairly paranoid when a patient is sick, but we don't really know the cause. I always tell people that if they worsen to call or bring them back in to be checked again. Time often clarifies things.
As for the four hour delay in calling, that's pretty typical and I don't think it was critical in this instance. What would have been done differently if he'd called you four hours earlier?
I wouldn't dispute the need to test his urine. First to check for glucose to help confirm diabletes and second to check for ketones. The tests are on the same strip. It's also a good idea to have the urine cultured since an undetected uti can make it hard to regulate a diabetic.
My statement about veterinarians seeing a lot of patients was not directed toward you, Elle, as you have been quite good about qualifying your statements. It was just a general statement.
I stated: No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't
> make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed > questions. or do your own research. I would hope for nothing less from my > clients. Stating that seeing the vet now without "becoming informed" may be
> fatal to your cat is irresponsible. Spending time looking up potentially > mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may > also be fatal to your cat. There is no perfect solution. I do not see how that discourages people from learning. I also don't see how it exudes any "blind loyalty to one's brethren" attitude. Geez, I actually said get another opinion if things aren't improving and to ask more pointed questions, and that I would hope for nothing less from my own clients. Hardly a call for blind loyalty. I once heard the saying that you should trust everyone, but always cut the cards yourself. I like that one. I know some veterinarians with mis-guided information. I'm sure I have some too. No one's an expert on every disease or condition. That's why we are always getting new textbooks, journals, and going to continuing ed meetings.
I didn't follow up on your response because Deborah, DVM posted with nearly everything I was going to say. I didn't see a need to be redundant. All you had to do was ask. I don't check these posts everyday, sometimes it's several days or a couple of weeks before I check in again, so I'm sure I miss some things, too.
MK DVM
Elle - 31 May 2005 03:58 GMT "MK" <mktkbb@hotmail.com> wrote Elle
> As for the four hour delay in calling, that's pretty typical and I don't > think it was critical in this instance. What would have been done > differently if he'd called you four hours earlier? I would have had four more hours to ask about diabetes at the boards. At least one person here (Meghan) said he needed insulin right away. I was skeptical. I hadn't yet made it to the Feline Diabetes Message Board at that point. With four more hours, I may very well have, and the chances people there would have reinforced Meghan's statement are high, from what I've read there since. The fact that my cat's hind legs were weak under him was another tip-off. I ultimately posted this, but I didn't know it was a tip-off to a serious, life threatening condition in a cat with high blood sugar. I was on my way to buying a glucometer at 6:30 AM the next morning. (See my post c. 6 AM at FDMB on Mar. 23.) A four hour jump the previous day would have allowed me to quite possibly get the advice I needed and the glucometer. And so forth.
Your other comments noted. Thank you for donating some of your time and expertise to the online community.
MK - 31 May 2005 04:18 GMT > "MK" <mktkbb@hotmail.com> wrote > Elle [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Your other comments noted. Thank you for donating some of your time and > expertise to the online community. You're welcome. I am very sorry for the loss of your cat, especially under such trying circumstances.
MK DVM
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 31 May 2005 05:24 GMT > I would have had four more hours to ask about diabetes at the boards. At > least one person here (Meghan) said he needed insulin right away. I was > skeptical. I know there is Megan (zuzu). Not sure if there is another Meghan with an h. I know it wasn't me as I have no experience with diabetes.
Not trying to be a pain, but I want to make sure nobody thinks I have experience that I don't, or gave advice that I didn't.
Elle - 31 May 2005 06:04 GMT > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I know there is Megan (zuzu). Yes, it was the Megan with the zuzu in her email address. Sorry for the confusion. IIRC, all or certainly most of her advice turned out to be dead-on. But I didn't know who to trust in such a short amount of time, given all the information I was collecting, from my vet as well as other posters as well as sites on the net, and again recognizing that my vet had only seen my cat briefly and none of those folks had actually seen the cat. Nor did any have all the out-of-spec blood results until a few days after my cat's death.
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 30 May 2005 20:52 GMT > In house bloodwork. Sending the blood to an outside lab was not a bad > thing, regardless of the distance to the lab. The samples are all Fed-Exed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it gets for an outside lab. The benefit of an outside lab is that you get > more information for the same or often less cost than in house. Yes. In Maynard's case, they could do inhouse results in 45 minutes, but it wouldn't be as detailed as the lab they send to. And it wasn't going to cost me any more, nor was he in danger of dying within the day. Serious, yes. But we could wait til 8am to see the results. It was mostly obvious anyway. Nothing surprising or hopeful in the results. They were hoping to find a sign of something that could be treated rather than just old age liver failure.
.
> I have noticed that when clients try to self diagnose on the internet, they > suffer from tunnel vision. They lack the perspective that veterinary school > and years of practice provide. They focus on a few possibilities without > realizing it may be something entirely different. That's not to say they > aren't right sometimes. Yes, it is one thing to have an idea of what we are facing and what the involves, but we still need to be open to other possibilities.
When my dog was diagnosed with mange, I looked up the treatment(which is more complicated in shelties), so I knew that the long, repeated treatment was standard. My mom tried to tell me the vet was cheating me, but Sveeral vet websites said a special bath every other week for a minimum of 3 months, even if it appears to clear up right away. We did exactly that. Yes, It was expensive. But it worked, and wasn't out of line with what other vets said.
Another case, with the same dog. She yelped badly when I pulled her forward once. It was just a light squeeze, so no healthy dog should have yelped. I had only had her for about 8 months at the time, and she was definitely abused by the past owner. So, I figured she must have had a broken rib from being kicked. Probably didn't heal right. I took her to the vet for an x-ray. I knew we probably couldn't do anything, but I would like to know what and where so that I wouldn't hurt her again.
Before we even got to the x-ray, the vet clearly thought it was something else. He was stretching her legs, feeling her chest, and asking a few questions. The hack that sounded like a cat with a hairball? Well, that wasn't a hairball. That was her heart pushing on her windpipe. We did the x-ray and he showed me how it is larger than typical for her small size. And how it was pushing on her windpipe.
He explained it very well, but I was a bit freaked out being told my new special dog had a heart problem. So, I did more research on my own, eventually buying a medical book on small animal cardiovascualr medicine. It was $100, and basically said the same thing that the vet told me. But I felt better knowing it was not just one vet's opinion. I realized I needed to trust my vet a bit more. It's been 8 years since then (today is actually her 12th birthday), and once she lost her excess weight, her hacking stopped. I can always tell when she is gaining because the cough comes back. And I have kept her on a special diet all these years which has really helped.
> Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients > everyday. Sometimes we are juggling several sick patients at the same time. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Part of my job is to figure out, under often emotional circumstances, what > level of care the client wants. Yes, and it also varies with the actual problem. If Maynard had been strong and healthy (and somewhat younger), I would have pushed for some cure and run myself broke trying. But he was an old, underweight, frail, 19 year old kitty who wouldn't have lived much longer regardless. I couldn't see putting him through the treatment when it was obviously not going to help him much. A few more months maybe, but at what cost to both of us (financially, emotionally, andhis quality of life)?
I doscovered with my first dog that a lot of people would automatically put down a blind dog. Seems shocking to me, but that was what I heard from a lot of people who laughed at me when I told them my dog was blind. Back when the vet determined she was losing her sight, we were ready to go the distance literally. About 600 miles and $600 to the nearest vet school for cataract surgery. Fortunately, they insisted we get a specific diagnosis from a specialist. So, we did that and found out that she didn't have cataracts, instead had a genetic disease which cannot be treated or cured.
> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't > make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed > questions. or do your own research. Yes. I will ask questions or do my research in advance, if I am waiting for the vet to open. I'm a night owl, so I get home from work late at night and then spend the night awake, so most of my awake time at home (and with the animals) is at night, so that is when I find the problems. And then I have to wait til the vet opens. So, time to look in my books, and time to search the web.
Also, when I am not sure which way to proceed, then I come here. That is what I did with Maynard. I got conflicting information from the first vet and my mom's friend (a former vet tech), and also conflicting information at home (don't let him suffer, don't give up on him). I knew that *I* was biased for sure. And the vet, while usually good, can be biased (and in this case, I think the assistant was - teh actual vet did not suggest the expensive treatments, but a wait-and-see plan). So, I knew I could come here for a non-biased opinion. But I only did that after seeing the vet. I knew the first step was to get him to the vet.
I also want to remind some people and thank the vets. They have it really tough. Yes, they do have to keep somewhat restrained in emotions. They can't sit there and cry over our pets. They would never get anything done. But that doesn't mean they don't care. Or that they don't go home and stew over it.
When my first dog was out down, the vet looked so sad. He sighed and said this was his 5th dog to put down that day. He looked so down that I wanted to comfort him. He was very professional and did what he needed to do, but he was obviously very affected by it.
And last week, when I took Maynard in, it was a very hectic day. They only have tow vets at the office, and two days a week, one does surgeries and one does all the walk-ins. We were first after the dog being worked on, but it was still almost an hour before the vet was ready for us. Many people came and left because the line was so long. And we saw a large dog being carried out to the car, wrapped up. I don't know if that was the same dog being worked on, but it had to have been a tough day. But the vet came out to car for us, and euthanized my cat in my lap, and he was very kind as always. Maynard couldn't have gone more peacefully, so it was well the wait, and the extra distance to go my old vet. The new vet is nice and only 10 minutes away, but the old vet will come to the car for euthanasia, so we don't have to sit in the waiting room crying with an audience of kids, and the cat doesn't spend that time stressing in the office. And we get to take the body home if we want to.
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 04:27 GMT > Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had > ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A > single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic. Sorry, Doc- there's no excuse.
In either case, the vet erred terribly. With a BG of 363 mg/dl in a fractious cat the vet should have suspected stress-induced hyperglycemia and ordered serum fructosamine concentration analysis since SF concentrations aren't affected by physiologic (stress-induced) hyperglycemia. If SF analysis wasn't available, he should have checked for glucosuria since stress-hyperglycemia usually doesn't produce glucosuria unless the stress is sustained. The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in the urine. If the cat was ketoacidotic, the urine dipstick would have also detected ketonuria. This isn't hindsight--these are basic routine diagnostics.
The vet could have also instructed Elle how to check BG at home with a simple, inexpensive glucometer. This would have minimized the 'white coat' effect and produced a more reliable BG reading.
It's
> possible the cat didn't even have diabetes and giving insulin to an already > sick cat caused fatal hypoglycemia. I was unaware that the vet gave the cat insulin without confirming that the cat was in fact diabetic!!! This is gross incompetence boarding on criminal malpractice!
Apparently, I don't know the whole story- but what I do know sounds horrible. Had he treated my cat in this manner, he'd be practicing vet med on Pegasus or Leo right now.
Phil
Elle - 31 May 2005 05:25 GMT "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> snip but all of Phil P.'s comments are noted
> I was unaware that the vet gave the cat insulin without confirming that the > cat was in fact diabetic!!! No, no; this isn't what happened. The vet visit and blood drawing was on Monday afternoon. My cat was at home on Tuesday, though he his condition had worsened. The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in fact as good a diagnosis as could possibly be made at the time. It's absolutely consistent with several symptoms my cat was displaying (weight loss; loss of appetite; sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... ) He said the cat would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most worried about my cat's potassium level. He recommended a certain oral potassium gel. He said his office could administer the insulin and monitor the blood. I said I needed to think about it all for an hour. I started making inquiries (see some of my posts here on Tuesday, March 22), called back, arranged to pick up the potassium gel that afternoon, and said I wanted to monitor my cat's blood and administer the insulin; could he give me a lesson? He was agreeable to this. (His assistant kept saying I couldn't do this, but once I heard from the vet on the matter, I just ignored her comments.) We made an appointment for first thing the next morning. Wednesday morning about 8:30 AM he gave me a good lesson in giving injections. He set a dose level which seemed reasonable, based on what I was reading, though without question I was in a tremendous hurry to absorb a lot of info in short order and things could not have been done perfectly. As MK pointed out, I could have botched it. I did not check the blood sugar prior to the first injection. On the third hand, even before I gave the first injection, my cat was incredibly weakened. Right after I gave the first injection, I called the vet, with I'm sure obvious tremoring in my voice, to say my cat was very weak; how long before the insulin kicked in. He did say bringing him in was an option.
But I simply didn't know the symptoms of being near death nor of ketoacidosis. (Now I do.) I decided to wait and see. Whether I botched the insulin dose or ketoacidosis had set in or he died of congestive heart failure due to the effects of the diabetes is not clear. His suffering was, however. That's my biggest objection with the vet. I feel the suffering could have been avoided.
I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly physical was due for late March. I blew it.
Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again. Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days.
I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope people's energies now go into him.
Candace - 31 May 2005 06:37 GMT > I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks > earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter > clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly >physical > was due for late March. I blew it. I responded to this a little while ago and I don't see that it showed up so sorry if there are 2 posts from me re: this. I'm very sorry you feel this is your fault, Elle. Grief is hard enough without guilt and self-blame thrown in. We all miss things sometimes. I had a cat a few years ago who had weight loss and I never noticed it. She was terminal by the time we took her to the vet. She was eating and we just never saw the weight loss. I was shocked to find out her weight when we went in. And his physical couldn't have been very late. Who among us goes to the doctor or the vet right on time for our own exams or those of our pets? I sure don't, esp. for my own. You get busy, you put it off...You're being very hard on yourself and I feel badly for that.
You loved your cat, he knew it, you gave him a good life. His ending is unfortunate, certainly. But you did the best you possibly could with the information you had and that is all anyone can do. You were not negligent. Your kitty would not want you to feel like this was your responsibility, I'm sure. I hope you can remember all the good times you had with him instead of painfully thinking of what might have been at the end.
Please don't be so hard on yourself.
Candace
Elle - 31 May 2005 15:59 GMT > Elle wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > our pets? I sure don't, esp. for my own. You get busy, you put it > off...You're being very hard on yourself and I feel badly for that. Candace, thank you, and others (maybe you also) at the time posted similar comments here and/or at FDMB.
I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a cat or have a cat that suffers. Also, I think honesty is important. I absolutely could never say this was all the vet's fault. I am trying to be fair and realize where I messed up, too.
Mary - 31 May 2005 17:56 GMT > I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a > rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a > cat or have a cat that suffers. Also, I think honesty is important. I > absolutely could never say this was all the vet's fault. I am trying to be > fair and realize where I messed up, too. A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet at the first sign of illness or injury, "broken tails" included.
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 22:45 GMT > > I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a > > rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet > at the first sign of illness or injury, "broken tails" included. I agree, absolutely. Taking a cat to the vet at the first sign of a problem is unequivocally the best thing to do. Most diseases are amenable to treatment in their early stages. By the time cats start showing symptoms its already late, so, we should not delay veterinary care for a minute. Its often difficult to tell if the symptoms are those of a life-threatening condition. Research should be done while the cat is receiving care.
People usually read the instruction manual for a computer or new appliance, car or toy and even lawn care. New or soon-to-be parents read books on child care. So why is it that so few people read books about basic cat care? I'm not talking about expensive veterinary medical textbooks- but easy-to-read $15- $25 cat health books such as the Cornell Book of Cats. There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins.
Phil
Meghan Noecker - 31 May 2005 23:13 GMT >People usually read the instruction manual for a computer or new appliance, >car or toy and even lawn care. New or soon-to-be parents read books on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also >include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins. Excellent point. I keep one of each for dogs and cats on my shelf. I can look something up in just a couple minutes, then grab the carrier and go. It doesn't take long to get a basic idea of what to consider.
The only valid reasons I can think of for a delay are the vet being closed, or waiting for a ride (although in an emergency, a cab should be called if the ride is not immediately available).
Even if you don't have the cash on hand, you don't pay til you pick them up. When Maynard had his abcess a few years ago, it ended up being $243 with treatment and senior bloodwork. I had just gotten paid that morning, but it was a little more than my paycheck. So, while the vet was treating my cat, we went to the bank, and my dad transferred money into my account. When I picked him, I paid the bill and took my happier cat home. I paid my dad back the next week. Sure, I had other plans for that money, and I got dinged a late fee for one of my bills. But the cat was higher priority than a credit card bill. And I have enough food in the freezer to pack lunch for a week. No big deal. The cat was good, and that was all I cared about.
 Signature -- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Mary - 01 Jun 2005 00:27 GMT > > A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT > > include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also > include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins. Thank you, Phil.
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 00:53 GMT > > > A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT > > > include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thank you, Phil. If I could get away with it, I'd make people take at least a 3-hour class on basic cat care before being allowed to adopt- or even buy- a cat. Fat chance. Some a.sholes don't even want to sign the adoption aggreement.
Phil
Candace - 31 May 2005 07:02 GMT > I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks > earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter > clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly >physical was due for late March. I blew it. I'm truly sorry you feel this way, Elle. I know we all have doubts and second guess ourselves after a loved pet dies. I had a cat who lost weight also a few years ago and we just did not notice it. I don't know why. She was terminally ill by the time we took her to the vet. She had been eating and we never noticed her weight loss. When you're with them everyday like that, I think it's hard to discern a weight loss unless someone else mentions it to you. And, as for the yearly physical, you didn't miss it by much. A lot of people go longer than a year, way longer, on their pets' and their own exams. I know I do--on theirs and mine.
Grief for a loved one is bad enough without self-blame and guilt thrown in. I hope you are able to come to terms with the fact that you loved your cat and he knew it and you did the best you could with the information you had at the time. No one can expect more. You were hardly negligent. I hope you will be able to focus on the happiness you brought each other and be able to put his unfortunate death behind you at some point. It's too sad, I'm sure he wouldn't want you to feel this way.
Candace
> Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again. > Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days. > > I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope > people's energies now go into him. Phil P. - 31 May 2005 07:07 GMT > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> > snip but all of Phil P.'s comments are noted [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Monday afternoon. My cat was at home on Tuesday, though he his condition had > worsened. My mistake. I was under the impression your cat's condition deteriorated after receiving insulin.
The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the
> vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in fact > as good a diagnosis as could possibly be made at the time. It's absolutely > consistent with several symptoms my cat was displaying (weight loss; loss of > appetite; Loss of appetite isn't a symptom of diabetes- In fact, its just the opposite- polyphagia. The feeling of hunger is controlled by the amount of glucose entering the 'satiety center' in the hypothalamus- which is controlled by insulin. In diabetic cats with a relative or absolute lack of insulin glucose can't enter the satiety center and inhibit hunger and the 'feeding center' (also in the hypothalamus) so the cat always feels hungry and has a ravenous appetite regardless of hyperglycemia or how much she eats.
sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then
> the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... ) Diabetic neuropathies aren't very common in cats. When it does occur, the cat develops a plantigrade posture- (i.e., the hocks touching the ground when she walks).
He said the cat
> would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most > worried about my cat's potassium level. He recommended a certain oral > potassium gel. Hindleg weakness may have been caused by hypokalemic polymyopathy rather than diabetic neuropathy or even a thromboembolism ('saddle thrombus').
He said his office could administer the insulin and monitor
> the blood. I said I needed to think about it all for an hour. I started > making inquiries (see some of my posts here on Tuesday, March 22), called [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > pointed out, I could have botched it. I did not check the blood sugar prior > to the first injection. On the third hand, even before I gave the first
> injection, my cat was incredibly weakened. Right after I gave the first > injection, I called the vet, with I'm sure obvious tremoring in my voice, to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks > earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. Weight loss is very difficult to notice in a cat you see every day (especially in long-haired cats)-- until its too late. This why I think the best investment a person can make in their cat's healthcare program is a good pediatric scale. Weight loss is usually a symptom of disease. A good pediatric scale will detect subtle weight loss in the early stages when most diseases are amenable to treatment. A good pediatric scale is the next best thing to semiannual exams.
I didn't realize his litter
> clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly physical > was due for late March. I blew it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope > people's energies now go into him. I'm sorry for your loss- but his death won't be in vain if you've learned a few things and help others.
Best of luck,
Phil
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 31 May 2005 08:15 GMT > Weight loss is very difficult to notice in a cat you see every day > (especially in long-haired cats)-- until its too late. This why I think the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > diseases are amenable to treatment. A good pediatric scale is the next best > thing to semiannual exams. I'll second this. I was able to find a nice used pediatric scale for only $20. I think they run new for about $40, but the store was out when I looked. It does anywhere from a pound to 40 lbs, so I can do all my cats and dogs on it.
I was shocked to see that Maynard lost almost half a pound in one day. I weighed him right before each vet visit so that I could give them the weight at check-in. Their scale doesn't really do cats well since you have to weigh them in the carrier, then go back and weigh the carrier without the cat.
It is great for my dog and my longer haired cats. I usually only check them once a month or so since they are all fine. But I just get it out and weigh everybody and see what changes have occurred. My new boy has gained weight, and too much. Gotta get him to lose a pound or so now. He actually went and plopped himself down for a nap on it a few days ago. Pretty cute :)
Elle - 31 May 2005 16:08 GMT > "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > My mistake. I was under the impression your cat's condition deteriorated > after receiving insulin. It may have. He was so ill just before I gave him the insulin that I couldn't make a reasonable distinction.
> The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the > > vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and has a ravenous appetite regardless of hyperglycemia or how much she > eats. My cat hadn't eaten (or drunk, I believe) for approximately 36 hours prior to his death.
> sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then > > the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... ) > > Diabetic neuropathies aren't very common in cats. When it does occur, the > cat develops a plantigrade posture- (i.e., the hocks touching the ground > when she walks). FDMB on the other hand does report a neuropathy situation now and then. Hocks touching the ground is how I would describe my cat's walking in his last two days or so.
> He said the cat > > would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > diseases are amenable to treatment. A good pediatric scale is the next best > thing to semiannual exams. I did indeed recently buy a scale, but not a pediatric one. It's good to a half pound. I do monitor my two cats' weights. I do now count calories and try to maintain my cats' weights at a healthy level. Lately I'm also using a rib rule I saw at a site: One should just be able to feel the ribs, under a thin layer of fat, with a cat that is at the proper weight.
> I didn't realize his litter > > clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm sorry for your loss- but his death won't be in vain if you've learned a > few things and help others. I agree.
Philip - 31 May 2005 17:32 GMT snip
> I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in > weeks earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again. > Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days. snip
Elle ... are you having any self mutilation ideations? I sincerely hope not. This was an inflight learning process from which your surviving cats will benefit. That is the gift in this experience.
John Ross Mc Master - 31 May 2005 19:56 GMT 1chip-state1@earthlink.net IP # 64.203.38.114
OrgAbuseName: ABUSE TEAM OrgAbusePhone: +1-404-815-0770 OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
Nomen Nescio - 31 May 2005 20:40 GMT -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
From: John Ross Mc Master <pussycat@cathouse.meow>
>1chip-state1@earthlink.net >IP # 64.203.38.114 > >OrgAbuseName: ABUSE TEAM >OrgAbusePhone: +1-404-815-0770 >OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@abuse.earthlink.net Congratulations, John. You have become the second of only 2 people that I've ever killfiled. The "Puppy Wizard" was the first (which should tell you how much of an a.shole you're being). That netkop crap gets REALLY irritating after the first hundred times.
Janet B - 31 May 2005 20:42 GMT >That netkop crap gets REALLY irritating after the first hundred >times. Not to mention, what is he netkopping ABOUT?
 Signature Janet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Elle - 31 May 2005 05:31 GMT "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote snip
> In either case, the vet erred terribly. With a BG of 363 mg/dl in a > fractious cat the vet should have suspected stress-induced hyperglycemia and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stress-hyperglycemia usually doesn't produce glucosuria unless the stress is > sustained. Phil P., may I ask: How did you learn this point? Are you a vet, vet assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another? I don't think I heard this one at the Feline Diabetes Message Board.
I'm asking because it will help me and others to understand the learning process.
> The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been > longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The vet could have also instructed Elle how to check BG at home with a > simple, inexpensive glucometer. Yes, dang it, though without question by 4 PM Tuesday afternoon (less than 24 hours before my cat passed away) I was struggling mightily to take in all this new information about treating diabetic cats. Since I was in denial or my vet didn't seem particularlly concerned, or a combination of both, I didn't stay up all night researching the matter. It was a trying night as I knew my cat was out of sorts so I was up about 6 AM, already wiped out and very worried (yet in denial, dammit).
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 07:05 GMT > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote > snip [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Phil P., may I ask: How did you learn this point? Many years of research and experience regulating many diabetic cats. I work with all the cats with special needs at my shelter.
Are you a vet, vet
> assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another? None of the above- although it depends on your definition of 'cat specialist'. Cats are indeed very special to me. ;->
I don't think I heard
> this one at the Feline Diabetes Message Board. > > I'm asking because it will help me and others to understand the learning > process. Urine dipsticks are only good for screening and also checking for ketones because ketonuria usually preceeds ketonemia. They're no good for monitoring BG or adjusting insulin dosages because cats have a very high renal threshold- could be as high as 200>290 mg/dl. So, a cat that tests 'negative' for glucosuria could still be hyperglycemic. Also, dipsicks can't detect hypoglycemia- the lowest they go is only 'negative'. More importantly, the urine in the bladder at the time of testing is usually an accumulation of urine over several hours- including postprandial spikes. IOW, urine glucose at the time of testing may not reflect the cat's true glycemic state. This can result in giving a cat insulin when the cat's BG is actually normal which can result in fatal hypoglycemia.
> > The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been > > longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > knew my cat was out of sorts so I was up about 6 AM, already wiped out and > very worried (yet in denial, dammit). This is not your fault. The vet never should have made a diagnosis of diabetes based on a *single* BG test of 363 mg/dl in a fractious cat- especially without checking urine glucose.
Phil
Elle - 31 May 2005 16:03 GMT > "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Many years of research and experience regulating many diabetic cats. I work > with all the cats with special needs at my shelter. Great!
I definitely appreciate your rational informed responses on this, as well as your posting that journal citation on chylothorax for Candace recently. That's the sort of thing that really helps. (I say this as someone trained in engineering and engineering research; someone who understands the scientific method.)
> Are you a vet, vet > > assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > glycemic state. This can result in giving a cat insulin when the cat's BG > is actually normal which can result in fatal hypoglycemia. I understand. I think I've read this point a few times before in the last few months, so this is more common knowledge.
MK - 31 May 2005 13:51 GMT >> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had >> ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Phil Yes, serum fructosamine may have helped. However, a few things I read recently questioned the reliability of fructosamine levels. Apparently some of the specialists aren't doing them as much and relying more on other methods. I don't remember the specifics.
I don't mean to make any excuses. There's some things that could have been done differently here. I'm just guessing that in this case, based on what I know of the cat's condition on the day of the exam and the bloodwork results that it didn't seem to be an all-out emergency. A glucose of 360-something doesn't freak me out or anyone else that I've ever practiced with as long as the cat is alert and responsive, etc. A low potassium also doesn't freak me out. I can't tell you how many times I got all sweaty over a low or high potassium and had a normal potassium on a repeat test, albeit more for the high potassium than low. Most DKA cats that I've been involved with have had blood glucose levels well over 500. That's why I said this was a bad situation all around. Assuming it was DKA, it could have been caught right off the bat. However, based on the cat's condition and bloodwork, it's pretty unusual for them to just crash in that time frame. That's why I'm more concerned about no recheck being done despite a worsening condition.
Gotta run, MK DVM
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 00:57 GMT > >> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had > >> ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > of the specialists aren't doing them as much and relying more on other > methods. I don't remember the specifics. Perhaps glycosylated hemoglobin (GHb)? GHb provides a better picture of glycemic control over a longer period of time- but I don't think the values have been universally standardized. Also, anemia and polycythemia can falsely raise or lower the concentrations, so, the hematocrit must be taken into consideration when interpreting the results.
> I don't mean to make any excuses. No. no, no! ;-> I wasn't implying that you were making excuses for the other vet. I meant the other vet had no excuse for his blunders.
There's some things that could have been
> done differently here. I'm just guessing that in this case, based on what I > know of the cat's condition on the day of the exam and the bloodwork results > that it didn't seem to be an all-out emergency. A glucose of 360-something > doesn't freak me out or anyone else that I've ever practiced with as long as > the cat is alert and responsive, etc. I agree. 360 mg/dl isn't really that high for a fractious cat. I've seen stress-hyperglycemia soar much higher than that only to return to normal a few hours after the cat calmed down.
A low potassium also doesn't freak me
> out. Low potassium does worry me because depletion of body stores of potassium can occur before the onset of hypokalemia- and since there's no way to measure ICF K+ reliably, I can't tell if total body K+ is critically depleted.
I can't tell you how many times I got all sweaty over a low or high
> potassium and had a normal potassium on a repeat test, albeit more for the > high potassium than low. I guess its just redistribution (ECF->ICF) most of the time.
Most DKA cats that I've been involved with have
> had blood glucose levels well over 500. That's why I said this was a bad > situation all around. Assuming it was DKA, it could have been caught right > off the bat. However, based on the cat's condition and bloodwork, it's > pretty unusual for them to just crash in that time frame. Maybe not- the cat could have been ketoacidotic for awhile and the stress of the trip to the vet pushed him over the edge.
That's why I'm
> more concerned about no recheck being done despite a worsening condition. Actually, in view of the cat's condition, I don't think the vet should have released the cat until he was stabalized and a definitive diagnosis of diabetes and/or ketoacidosis or whatever was reached.
I've noticed a disturbing trend of many vets becoming lazy and simply sending out tests and wasting precious time waiting for results rather than running certain in-house tests that might provide immediate life-saving information. Sometimes, a few hours can make the difference between life and death.
Phil
MK - 01 Jun 2005 04:28 GMT >> >> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had >> >> ketoacidosis anyway? We don't even know that the cat had diabetes. A [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > > Phil The thing I see with in-house testing is that only a few tests are done and it's left at that. Sometimes it's due to client financial limitations, other times I really don't know why. We have a pretty full in-house lab and we use it a lot. You do have to pay for it somehow. Whether to run the tests in-house or send them to the lab is just a judgement call.
MK DVM
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 19:43 GMT > > I've noticed a disturbing trend of many vets becoming lazy and simply > > sending out tests and wasting precious time waiting for results rather [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > other times I really don't know why. We have a pretty full in-house lab and > we use it a lot. You do have to pay for it somehow. I would think most practices would want run tests in house since the results are available immediately which would permit treatment to begin sooner- and also because the profit is much higher.
In-house chemistry analyzers cost about $95/mo and about $15-$20/chemscreen. Hematology analyzers cost about $300/month and about $4/hemagram. Two CBC/chemscreens pays the equipment cost for the month and the markup per patient is 500% opposed to 50% markup on outside tests. Three CBC/chemscreens/week pays the vet tech's weekly salary.
Whether to run the
> tests in-house or send them to the lab is just a judgement call. Some vets rather take the 50% markup than be bothered running the tests in-house.
Phil
Candace - 29 May 2005 20:56 GMT > He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor > with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally > invested in your emotions. I didn't say he SHOULD. I said he DOESN'T. There was no "should" implied.
> How self centered you are. How many people like you with a sick kitty do > you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for however many years > the vet has been in practice? Hmmmn? Do you think there is no cumulative > effect on the vet's mental health? He/she cannot afford to get invested in > your emotional drama to the degree you'd like. I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!! Sheesh, no wonder everyone is always trying to ream you a new a-hole, you're obstinate.
> This too shall pass. Yeah, I'm sure it will someday after she dies. Time heals all wounds, after all. That doesn't make it any easier now but thanks for your compassion and astute observations (sarcasm, in case you don't get it).
Candace
Philip - 29 May 2005 21:36 GMT >> He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any >> doctor with a case load must guard their mental health from getting >> personally invested in your emotions. >> > I didn't say he SHOULD. I said he DOESN'T. There was no "should" > implied. A distinction without a difference.
>> How self centered you are. How many people like you with a sick >> kitty do you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!! That you mention it suggests otherwise.
>> This too shall pass. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Candace Carry on, Candace.
Candace - 29 May 2005 22:28 GMT > > I didn't say he SHOULD. I said he DOESN'T. There was no "should" > > implied. > > A distinction without a difference. Really. The words have different meanings. D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y.
> > I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!! > > That you mention it suggests otherwise. I was setting up *why* we should be our own advocates and not trust them to be. I don't think they SHOULD.
> Carry on, Candace. f.ck off, Philip.
Philip - 29 May 2005 22:42 GMT >>> I didn't say he SHOULD. I said he DOESN'T. There was no "should" >>> implied. >> >> A distinction without a difference. > > Really. The words have different meanings. D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y. Good! You can spell. Now look at end results. I do. Try it sometime for yourself.
>>> I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!! >> >> That you mention it suggests otherwise. > > I was setting up *why* we should be our own advocates and not trust > them to be. I don't think they SHOULD. In fact, physicians and vets start out in the position of patient advocate ... a advocate with a vested interest. It is up to you to advocate for your pet as you become qualified to do so. Be sure you really are qualified ... not just a self appointed wind bag of emotions.
>> Carry on, Candace. > > f.ck off, Philip. Let's continue this on the pussy washing thread.
Mary - 29 May 2005 19:38 GMT > One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some > requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly > trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13. Well, I see your point. However, in most cases taking a sick or injured animal to the vet right away is to be desired. We have too many people posting here who simply do not want to spend the money on a vet when that is exactly what their cat needs. Sure, inform yourself. But get the cat to the vet first. You can ask the vet questions. You can even delay treatment if you need to, until you questions are answered. What does not benefit the cat is sitting around at home with him while he suffers and you look stuff up on the Internet.
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:58 GMT > Well, I see your point. However, in most cases taking a sick > or injured animal to the vet right away is to be desired. We have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ask the vet questions. You can even delay treatment if you need > to, until you questions are answered. I trust you understand that this will depend, as my example illustrates. Once my cat's symptoms seemed serious, I had less than 48 hours to save my cat's life. Delaying treatment was absolutely not an option, in my estimation. I got the cat to the vet Monday. He perceived nothing life-threatening, even by Tuesday after the results were in. I TRUSTED the one vet. It was a mistake.
Though again, I take responsibility for not doing something sooner. He had not become lethargic until maybe Sunday...
> What does not benefit > the cat is sitting around at home with him while he suffers and > you look stuff up on the Internet. I hope we can agree to disagree civilly. Some vets are not competent or do not have the time to give to one's cat. I suppose in a perfect world the guardian of a cat could get the cat to a vet and do his/her own research, so if the vet is responding questionably, a person can get the cat to another vet, or do whatever his/her research is best. Then too telling a vet you doubt his/her diagnosis is always fun (not). Plus I already was dealing with a witchy vet assistant Tuesday afternoon telling me that I could neither monitor blood glucose levels at home nor administer insulin by myself. No ifs ands or buts. (The vet himself was better on this point.) I didn't get to the Feline Diabetes Message Board until Wednesday morning 6 AM, after a pretty sleepless night with my sick cat... I don't want to review it again... to get the needed reinforcement and some skill-instruction.
I just think people need to be more aggressive when they sense an overwhelmed doctor, surgeon, or vet, and always, always do research on their own, to optimize care.
I'll kick in that I had similar experience caring for, for one, an ulcered hip wound in a grandparent. Darned physician's office was saying one thing. I asked at a nursing board and they said to stop doing this one thing; it traumatized the wound. The physician subsequently did an about face and agreed with what people at the nursing board said.
Which of course reminds me of my father's hospital stay some years ago when the staff gave him the completely wrong medication. Never again will my mother leave him by himself in the hospital.
Which reminds me of a friend whose husband had kidney stones and a tube going into his back to his kidney area for some sort of flushing, all in the hospital. Early in the morning he was in pain and called his wife at home. She came in, saw not only that he was in pain but that he was mentally out of sorts. She called the nurse (again), who found nothing and got more pain killer from the doctor. My friend meanwhile inspected the tube going to his kidney area and saw that the last shift had left the valve on the tube shut. She knew what was going on; opened the valve, and her husband was immediately relieved. Later she wrote the head nurse, who profusely apologized; agreed a terrible mistake had been made; and said education would happen.
The best health care occurs when family members are there to watch the staff (doctors included) like hawks, educating themselves as need be.
Candace - 29 May 2005 20:26 GMT > I just think people need to be more aggressive when they sense an > overwhelmed doctor, surgeon, or vet, and always, always do research on their > own, to optimize care. Yes, I definitely agree. And let me add to my post before that one can have the most dedicated, compassionate, informed, educated physician (or vet) in the world and he may sincerely care about you but as well as having his own family and his own life to live, he does also have many other patients vying for his time and expertise. You have to be your own advocate (or your pet's advocate) as much as you can.
Some vets, I have noticed, respond well to you doing your own research; others seem to take it as a personal affront. With doctors, I have yet to find one who responds very well to someone doing their own research. Fortunately, I haven't had that much first-hand experience, nor do I want to, but they do not seem to want to know what you have read on your own. They love to make the little, "Where did you go to med school?" type remarks.
> The best health care occurs when family members are there to watch the staff > (doctors included) like hawks, educating themselves as need be. Yes, I feel sorry for those who have no one because mistakes do happen in hospitals. Wrong meds are given, wrong tests are given, even wrong surgeries happen. It's a scary thing putting yourself into someone else's hands and losing all control.
Candace
Elle - 29 May 2005 21:23 GMT > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > many other patients vying for his time and expertise. You have to be > your own advocate (or your pet's advocate) as much as you can. Agreed. (That's three people, with Philip, agreeing on Usenet! Someone call Guinness to note the world record!)
> Some vets, I have noticed, respond well to you doing your own research; > others seem to take it as a personal affront. With doctors, I have yet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > your own. They love to make the little, "Where did you go to med > school?" type remarks. Heh. Fortunately I have never actually heard this line but I know of one MD I saw years ago who had this attitude.
Of the maybe six or so MDs I've seen in the last years (for myself or with family members), I think about half were clearly for _teaming with_ the patient to solve his/her medical problem. This is, as I'm sure you know Candace, the logical approach. There is no way the MD can know many of the patient's bodily specifics as well as the patient can. (You pointed this out, too, re knowing one's cat.)
So a comment like the above from a doctor is right away to me a tip-off that the doc is ignorant. Time to find another one, for many reasons.
But for fun I've been thinking about what would be some effective responses to a statement like the one above ("Where did you go to med school?"). How about
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