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Perils of Seeing the Vet NOW w/OUT Becoming Informed

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Elle - 29 May 2005 18:50 GMT
One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some
requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John
McMaster on May 13):

---
John McMaster: ... the advice to visit a vet NOW is always good.

Elle: By itself, no, it can be fatal.
---

I didn't see subsequent requests to respond. I am not always subscribed to
this group, coming and going as I please. Indeed, I did not post again to
the group for a couple of weeks after this exchange.

The reason a visit to the vet by itself could be fatal is because one is led
to trust that the vet is doing everything he/she can for one's cat. As one
example, and as some of you may recall, I trusted my vet when he recommended
anesthesizing my cat and drawing blood for testing on a recent Monday
afternoon. I called the next morning and said my cat was much worse; could
they please call me as soon as they could with the blood results.

According to the fax containing the blood results, the vet got the blood
results back (from a lab some 950 miles away) about 9:30 AM. Several values
were critical. (A number of people have confirmed this for me, along with my
own reading.) I sat by my sick cat and the phone waiting all that morning
and part of the afternoon to hear some kind of diagnosis or just the blood
results. The vet didn't call me until 1:30 PM. When he did, he didn't
indicate the values were life threatening. My cat suffered and was dead 23
hours later. As I have posted, I take responsibility for my role in this. I
also feel my former vet also bears significant responsibility for my cat's
suffering.

A week or a few days later, I discussed this at the Feline Diabetes Message
Board. A number of people at the board, including one veterinarian, agreed
that at a miminum a letter to the vet voicing my concerns above was
appropriate, the purpose being to educate, not threaten.

I feel an informed patient (or guardian of a patient) may be the best way to
ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly
trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:05 GMT
snip
> According to the fax containing the blood results, the vet got the
> blood results back (from a lab some 950 miles away) about 9:30 AM.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> former vet also bears significant responsibility for my cat's
> suffering.

snip

> I feel an informed patient (or guardian of a patient) may be the best
> way to ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never,
> ever blindly trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.

Blood tests are tiered.  Same as human blood panels.  The general purpose
panel is only looking for things like platelet counts, liver enzymes, CO2
levels ... the basics.  Then you have more comprehensive panels (thyroid,
serum glucose, etc) which of course vets justify charging more money for and
*may* take longer to perform.  It's entirely possible your vet did not order
a sufficiently comprehensive blood panel that would have identified your
cat's problem.  And even then, there are limits to what blood panels can
reveal.  People die every day with blood numbers that are all within normal
ranges.
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:34 GMT
> Elle wrote:
> snip
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> a sufficiently comprehensive blood panel that would have identified your
> cat's problem.

Phil,

As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid problems,
blood glucose, potassium etc. The results of the blood panel indicated my
cat had diabetes (so the vet diagnosed, any way). The vet never tested for
ketones. Like I wrote, a number of people with expertise in cat blood panels
said the values (which I posted) were critical. Ketone testing shoudl have
been done. Plus I have done my own reading to confirm this. It's not rocket
science. But for a busy vet, it is more than he can handle.

The cat's symptoms Monday were loss of weight, appetite, and lethargy. Those
by themselves for a senior cat should have made him suspicious. IF I had
asked here, I think someone would have said diabetes (among other things)
was a possibility. I would have gone reading up on it, and it might have
sunk in that in fact my cat had been urinating more in the last several
months, and his urine kitty litter clumps were sticky, indicating high sugar
in the urine. If I had become more informed, I might have felt pretty
confident it was diabetes by Monday night.

I don't have a problem with the Tuesday 9:30 AM arrival of the blood
results. I do object when red flags (I do mean many OUT OF SPEC values) come
up on a blood report and the vet doesn't get back to me for four hours,
despite my saying first thing in the morning my cat was much sicker. I also
object to his not saying my cat was in, or at least potentially in, a
life-threatening way and so the cat should be tested for ketones. If I had
even known he was in a life-threatening way, I could have googled for signs
of impending death (there are some very specific tipoffs) and ended my cats
suffering much sooner.

Related aside: Phil, I do think we are in more agreement than disagreement
on the subject of the health care industry plugging stuff that is not
efficacious but more to increase vets/MDs/insurers income. Always nice to
meet another person who has done some thought on these issues and, with so
many others in this country, knows the health care/insurance system needs
serious reform.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:57 GMT
>> Blood tests are tiered.  Same as human blood panels.  The general
>> purpose panel is only looking for things like platelet counts, liver
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> my own reading to confirm this. It's not rocket science. But for a
> busy vet, it is more than he can handle.
snip
> Related aside: Phil, I do think we are in more agreement than
> disagreement on the subject of the health care industry plugging
> stuff that is not efficacious but more to increase vets/MDs/insurers
> income. Always nice to meet another person who has done some thought
> on these issues and, with so many others in this country, knows the
> health care/insurance system needs serious reform.

Busy vet?   LOL   That's a joke.  We're talking about 2-4 small viles of
blood draw that take about five minutes to perform.  My personal condition
requires a blood panel every 60 days.  The vampire takes 4 viles of blood
... guessing 6-8 ounces total.  I am in/out in 5-7 minutes.

You and I *are* on the same page.  If there was disagreement, I missed it.
Elle - 29 May 2005 20:04 GMT
"Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote
E wrote
> > But for a
> > busy vet, it is more than he can handle.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> requires a blood panel every 60 days.  The vampire takes 4 viles of blood
> ... guessing 6-8 ounces total.  I am in/out in 5-7 minutes.

Phil, my cat had always been uncooperative at the vet's. Even in my cat's
weakened state on that Monday in March, neither I nor the vet could lay a
hand on him to do a proper examination. He was fierce and growling. (Of
course when he used to get home, he would sache' out of his carrier and
start purring right away. That is, back when he was alive.)

As I mentioned, my cat had to be anesthesized in order to have blood drawn.
It would be too dangerous, otherwise, for the cat and the staff. I had no
objection to the vet's recommendation to anesthesize him (at no small cost,
but so it goes).

On Tuesday, the only plausible explanation I have for the vet's not calling
me sooner is that he was busy.

> You and I *are* on the same page.  If there was disagreement, I missed it.

Okay.
Phil P. - 29 May 2005 21:28 GMT
> > Elle wrote:
> > snip
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > > way to ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never,
> > > ever blindly trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.

<snip>

> As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid problems,
> blood glucose, potassium etc. The results of the blood panel indicated my
> cat had diabetes (so the vet diagnosed, any way). The vet never tested for
> ketones. Like I wrote, a number of people with expertise in cat blood panels
> said the values (which I posted) were critical. Ketone testing shoudl have
> been done.

As soon as the vet received the results indicating diabetes, he should have
immediately tested your cat's *urine* for ketones since ketonuria  will
often precede detectable ketonemia.  Ketonuria is easily and quickly
detectable with urine dipsticks in the office in a matter of minutes.

In fact, after your discription of symptons, your vet should have suspected
diabetes and *immediately* checked your cat's blood glucose *on the spot*-
all it takes is a simple, inexpensive human glucometer and about 15 seconds.
If your cat tested hyperglycemic, he should have immediately checked the
urine for glucose and ketones. Stress hyperglycemia ("white coat
effect"/traveling) usually doesn't produce glucosuria or ketonuria.

IOW, after a simple exam and simple in-house tests, the vet could have taken
life-saving measures that would have probably saved your cat's life.

Phil P. (the prick- not to be confused with Philip the a.shole)
Elle - 29 May 2005 21:34 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote
E wrote
snip
> > As it happened, the vet ordered the panel that tested for thyroid
> problems,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> urine for glucose and ketones. Stress hyperglycemia ("white coat
> effect"/traveling) usually doesn't produce glucosuria or ketonuria.

Yup, yup, yup... As I learned.

Hence the letter I sent him asking why he didn't do these things.

> IOW, after a simple exam and simple in-house tests, the vet could have taken
> life-saving measures that would have probably saved your cat's life.
>
> Phil P. (the prick- not to be confused with Philip the a.shole)

lol

I shall try to make the distinction between Phils, and start fresh with each
in each new thread, harboring no past, childish grudges, and promoting
always good health for cats and their guardians.

Elle (the obstinate, but I hope always rationally)
Candace - 29 May 2005 19:11 GMT
> One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some
> requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly
> trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.

I'm sorry about your cat.  I agree with you.  It's always beneficial to
do your own research in health matters, whether they're your own, or a
loved one's, including your animals.  Your life or your pet's life is
most important to you.  No doctor or vet is going to feel as strongly
about it as you do.  Sometimes, though, unfortunately, we can't get the
info in time or we just can't get it at all.  It does sound as though
what your vet did was very negligent but we are conditioned to trust
the medical/veterinary profession and think they know what's best and,
obviously, that isn't always true.  If you have a vet or doctor you
trust, that's very good, but you should always be as informed about
your  own or your pet's condition as you can be.

Candace
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:38 GMT
> Elle wrote:
> > One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'm sorry about your cat.

Thank you, Candace. People here and at the Feline Diabetes Message Board
were very nice here and helpful.

> I agree with you.  It's always beneficial to
> do your own research in health matters, whether they're your own, or a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> trust, that's very good, but you should always be as informed about
> your  own or your pet's condition as you can be.

Well said. I agree sometimes there's nothing that can be done. Also,
assigning blame (financial or otherwise) is rarely helpful. I think
education--mine and the vet's--can be, though.
Philip - 29 May 2005 19:42 GMT
snip
> Your life or your pet's life is
> most important to you.  No doctor or vet is going to feel as strongly
> about it as you do.
snip
> Candace

"Feeling strongly" should not be part of a veterinary's decision making
process as emotions cloud making good decisions.
Candace - 29 May 2005 19:57 GMT
> snip
> > Your life or your pet's life is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>  "Feeling strongly" should not be part of a veterinary's decision making
> process as emotions cloud making good decisions.

What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly
or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do."  You
may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world
who knows your condition inside out but, when it comes down to it, at
the end of the day he's going to go home and be with his family and
live his own life...*you* are the one who has the illness, it's
obviously going to affect you more than it affects him/her.

My vets are compassionate and informed and seem to care about my sick
kitty a lot but, right now, they're home with their families having
their holiday weekends and enjoying themselves, I presume (as they
should be) and I'm here looking at my cat and wondering what the future
holds for her.  It's her and me that are going to be affected.

Candace
Philip - 29 May 2005 20:41 GMT
>> snip
>>> Your life or your pet's life is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly
> or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do."

He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor
with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally
invested in your emotions.

> You
> may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world
> who knows your condition inside out but, when it comes down to it, at
> the end of the day he's going to go home and be with his family and
> live his own life...*you* are the one who has the illness, it's
> obviously going to affect you more than it affects him/her.

How self centered you are.  How many people like you with a sick kitty do
you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for however many years
the vet has been in practice?  Hmmmn?  Do you think there is no cumulative
effect on the vet's mental health?  He/she cannot afford to get invested in
your emotional drama to the degree you'd like.

> My vets are compassionate and informed and seem to care about my sick
> kitty a lot but, right now, they're home with their families having
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Candace

This too shall pass.
Elle - 29 May 2005 20:49 GMT
"Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote
C wrote
snip
> > What I *meant,* was "No doctor or no vet is going to feel as strongly
> > or care as much about your life or your pet's life as *you* do."
>
> He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor
> with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally
> invested in your emotions.

I think you need to see the film "The Doctor," (with William Hurt) Philip.

The main theme is that doctors who immunize themselves from their patients'
suffering in fact give worse care.

There is a middle ground.

> > You
> > may have the most dedicated, educated, informed physician in the world
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> effect on the vet's mental health?  He/she cannot afford to get invested in
> your emotional drama to the degree you'd like.

You're being presumptuous, Phil.
Philip - 29 May 2005 21:36 GMT
> "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote
> C wrote
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The main theme is that doctors who immunize themselves from their
> patients' suffering in fact give worse care.

It's JUST a movie ... not an instructive course on guerilla mental health
for healthcare professionals.

> There is a middle ground.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> You're being presumptuous, Phil.

Let the lurking vets here pipe up if I am in gross error.
MK - 30 May 2005 17:33 GMT
>> "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote
>> C wrote
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Let the lurking vets here pipe up if I am in gross error.

This was just a bad situation all around.  I responded to the original post
on this a couple of months back.  It is easy to sit back and take potshots
in hindsight on a case like this.  The cat may have fared better if a couple
simple things had happened:

In house bloodwork.  Sending the blood to an outside lab was not a bad
thing, regardless of the distance to the lab.  The samples are all Fed-Exed
and the results faxed back, so the lab could have been in Zimbabwe for all
we care.  The results were still back in plenty of time.  Actually, sending
it out at 4pm or so and getting results back the next morning is as good as
it gets for an outside lab.  The benefit of an outside lab is that you get
more information for the same or often less cost than in house.  In house
bloodwork would have told you right away that you needed to check the urine.
In a non-cooperative cat like this, hopefully you were able to get some
while it was anesthetized, otherwise you've got to re-anesthetize him.  As
it stood the cat was at home, and not at the clinic and needed to come back
to have a urinalysis done.

Recheck exam.  So the next morning Elle calls and says the cat is much
worse.  She should have been instructed by the staff to bring the cat in
asap, or the staff should have told the vet right then, and s/he instructed
Elle to bring cat back asap.  I don't know what actually happened, but those
are questions that come to mind.  Supportive care and additional bloodwork
may have helped at that stage.  Also, after the first dose of insulin was
given and the cat's weakness was reported to the veterinarian, a recheck
should have been urged by the veterinarian.

Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had
ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic.  It's
possible the cat didn't even have diabetes and giving insulin to an already
sick cat caused fatal hypoglycemia.  Another possibility is that anesthesia
in a sick and possibly dehydrated, hypovolemic cat caused a serious enough
drop in blood pressure to result in acute renal failure due to hypoxia.  You
can come up with several plausible scenarios.  In over ten years as a
veterinarian, I have seen many cats with similar symptoms and completely
normal bloodwork.  Even in the cases with moderate glucose elevations such
as this, a significant portion of those are due to stress alone.

Diabetes, and especially diabetic ketoacidosis, in an un-cooperative,
aggressive cat is a veterinarian's nightmare.  The stress response makes
doing an accurate glucose curve next to impossible.  DKA usually requires
repeated blood draws and administration of regular insulin hourly or every
few hours.  On a cat with a temperment such as this, treatment is a
challenge to say the least.  So even if it did turn out to be DKA, treatment
would have been no picnic.

I actually like it when clients look stuff up on the internet.  Heck, I
often give them the website addresses myself.  I don't mind if clients
question what steps we're taking or not taking.  That said, I don't have
much tolerance for snide, condescending, intimidating, suspicious, or
superior attitudes from clients or anyone else.  We are all human beings
doing the best we can.  Be respectful of me, and I'll be respectful of you.
I have noticed that when clients try to self diagnose on the internet, they
suffer from tunnel vision.  They lack the perspective that veterinary school
and years of practice provide.  They focus on a few possibilities without
realizing it may be something entirely different.  That's not to say they
aren't right sometimes.

Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients
everyday.  Sometimes we are juggling several sick patients at the same time.
It's not easy, and it takes a lot of diligence to make sure that mistakes
don't happen.  We also deal with many different types of clients.  I think
that gets forgotten on this board.  Posters seem to think that most of our
clients are like them.  The vast majority are not.  They are not well
educated on the various health concerns of their pet, they don't want to do
everything humanly possible, regardless of cost to save their pet, etc.
Part of my job is to figure out, under often emotional circumstances, what
level of care the client wants.  It can be difficult to shift gears from
people that are reluctant to have basic care done to working with someone
that will spare no expense.  By all means, pay attention to what your
veterinarian is doing or not doing and ask questions.  After all, you are
both on the same side.

No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't
make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed
questions. or do your own research.  I would hope for nothing less from my
clients.  Stating that seeing the vet now without "becoming informed" may be
fatal to your cat is irresponsible.  Spending time looking up potentially
mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may
also be fatal to your cat.  There is no perfect solution.

MK DVM
Philip - 30 May 2005 18:09 GMT
>>> "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote
>>> C wrote
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> be fatal to your cat.  There is no perfect solution.
> MK DVM

MK, thank you for stepping up to the plate.   :^)   In my short tenure in
this forum, I've met some sensible people  and a greater number of the
emotional WHACK jobs you have to deal with. Unlike people doctors, nearly
all your "patients" are really two patients.  The animal AND the owner.
Ever want to anesthetize both?   ;^)
John Ross Mc Master - 30 May 2005 18:20 GMT
1chip-state1@earthlink.net
IP # 64.203.38.114

OrgAbuseName:   ABUSE TEAM
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-404-815-0770
OrgAbuseEmail:  abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
Elle - 30 May 2005 19:28 GMT
> This was just a bad situation all around.

Does this mean you feel my former vet probably did no wrong?

> I responded to the original post
> on this a couple of months back.

I posted my former cat's blood results at alt.med.veterinary . You asked
more questions but didn't make any other notable commentary. I responded at
length to all your questions. Then you failed to respond further.

> It is easy to sit back and take potshots
> in hindsight on a case like this.  The cat may have fared better if a couple
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Elle to bring cat back asap.  I don't know what actually happened, but those
> are questions that come to mind.

They did neither of these things.

Why don't you say something about the four-hour delay between the arrival of
the out-of-spec bloodwork and contacting me, AFTER I'd called around 8:30 AM
and said the cat was much worse?  *&^%$

> Supportive care and additional bloodwork
> may have helped at that stage.  Also, after the first dose of insulin was
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
> single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic.

Of course, but I have listed other symptoms and other out-of-spec numbers on
the blood that seem to me to confirm it. The sticky clumps of kitty litter,
for instance. Which I did not recognize without the benefit of hindsight.

I don't reject any of your hypotheses.

I do dispute any claim of yours that the cat should not have been checked
for ketones.

snip
> Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients
> everyday.

I have also pointed this out and resent your not acknowledging it.

It's one large reason why I didn't make a bigger fuss about this, but simply
sent a letter saying I was at fault, but I felt he (the vet) was at fault,
too, particularly for not recognizing a suffering cat and advising on this.
In the letter I recommended specific education points. You may take this as
condescending to the vet. There is no non-condescending way to recommend a
person get further education on points X, Y, and Z.

> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't
> make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may
> also be fatal to your cat.  There is no perfect solution.

I don't think much of your attitude, particularly when it discourages people
from learning. It's the typical blind loyalty to one's brethren attitude. In
fact, plenty of health care professionals have mis-guided information
themselves.

Plus, you yourself didn't follow up to my response to your questions at
alt.med.veterinary . That's not a crime. It is unprofessional.

I think you should thank people like me for not hauling the vet I had into
court.
Philip - 30 May 2005 19:36 GMT
snip
>> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If
>> things don't make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Plus, you yourself didn't follow up to my response to your questions
> at alt.med.veterinary . That's not a crime. It is unprofessional.
snip

Elle.... MK mentioned he encouraged some owners (in fact gave them websites)
to educate themselves.  Secondly, you are not a PAYING CUSTOMER of MK's so
your unfulfilled expectations of MK on another forum are unreasonable.
John Ross Mc Master - 30 May 2005 21:40 GMT
1chip-state1@earthlink.net
IP # 64.203.38.114

OrgAbuseName:   ABUSE TEAM
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-404-815-0770
OrgAbuseEmail:  abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
MK - 31 May 2005 03:51 GMT
>> This was just a bad situation all around.
>
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
> I think you should thank people like me for not hauling the vet I had into
> court.

Did your vet probably do no wrong?  I can't say, because I wasn't there, but
if the cat was progressively deteriorating, a recheck exam recommendation
would have seemed reasonable.  I'm fairly paranoid when a patient is sick,
but we don't really know the cause.  I always tell people that if they
worsen to call or bring them back in to be checked again.  Time often
clarifies things.

As for the four hour delay in calling, that's pretty typical and I don't
think it was critical in this instance.  What would have been done
differently if he'd called you four hours earlier?

I wouldn't dispute the need to test his urine.  First to check for glucose
to help confirm diabletes and second to check for ketones.  The tests are on
the same strip.  It's also a good idea to have the urine cultured since an
undetected uti can make it hard to regulate a diabetic.

My statement about veterinarians seeing a lot of patients was not directed
toward you, Elle, as you have been quite good about qualifying your
statements.  It was just a general statement.

I stated:
No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things
don't
> make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed
> questions. or do your own research.  I would hope for nothing less from my
> clients.  Stating that seeing the vet now without "becoming informed" may
be
> fatal to your cat is irresponsible.  Spending time looking up potentially
> mis-guided information on the internet while your cat is sick at home may
> also be fatal to your cat.  There is no perfect solution.

I do not see how that discourages people from learning.  I also don't see
how it exudes any "blind loyalty to one's brethren" attitude.  Geez, I
actually said get another opinion if things aren't improving and to ask more
pointed questions, and that I would hope for nothing less from my own
clients.  Hardly a call for blind loyalty.  I once heard the saying that you
should trust everyone, but always cut the cards yourself.  I like that one.
I know some veterinarians with mis-guided information.  I'm sure I have some
too.  No one's an expert on every disease or condition.  That's why we are
always getting new textbooks, journals, and going to continuing ed meetings.

I didn't follow up on your response because Deborah, DVM posted with nearly
everything I was going to say.  I didn't see a need to be redundant.  All
you had to do was ask.  I don't check these posts everyday, sometimes it's
several days or a couple of weeks before I check in again, so I'm sure I
miss some things, too.

MK DVM
Elle - 31 May 2005 03:58 GMT
"MK" <mktkbb@hotmail.com> wrote
Elle
> As for the four hour delay in calling, that's pretty typical and I don't
> think it was critical in this instance.  What would have been done
> differently if he'd called you four hours earlier?

I would have had four more hours to ask about diabetes at the boards. At
least one person here (Meghan) said he needed insulin right away. I was
skeptical. I hadn't yet made it to the Feline Diabetes Message Board at that
point. With four more hours, I may very well have, and the chances people
there would have reinforced Meghan's statement are high, from what I've read
there since. The fact that my cat's hind legs were weak under him was
another tip-off. I ultimately posted this, but I didn't know it was a
tip-off to a serious, life threatening condition in a cat with high blood
sugar. I was on my way to buying a glucometer at 6:30 AM the next morning.
(See my post c. 6 AM at FDMB on Mar. 23.) A four hour jump the previous day
would have allowed me to quite possibly get the advice I needed and the
glucometer. And so forth.

Your other comments noted. Thank you for donating some of your time and
expertise to the online community.
MK - 31 May 2005 04:18 GMT
> "MK" <mktkbb@hotmail.com> wrote
> Elle
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Your other comments noted. Thank you for donating some of your time and
> expertise to the online community.

You're welcome.  I am very sorry for the loss of your cat, especially under
such trying circumstances.

MK DVM
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 31 May 2005 05:24 GMT
> I would have had four more hours to ask about diabetes at the boards. At
> least one person here (Meghan) said he needed insulin right away. I was
> skeptical.

I know there is Megan (zuzu). Not sure if there is another Meghan with
an h. I know it wasn't me as I have no experience with diabetes.

Not trying to be a pain, but I want to make sure nobody thinks I have
experience that I don't, or gave advice that I didn't.
Elle - 31 May 2005 06:04 GMT
> Elle wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I know there is Megan (zuzu).

Yes, it was the Megan with the zuzu in her email address. Sorry for the
confusion. IIRC, all or certainly most of her advice turned out to be
dead-on. But I didn't know who to trust in such a short amount of time,
given all the information I was collecting, from my vet as well as other
posters as well as sites on the net, and again recognizing that my vet had
only seen my cat briefly and none of those folks had actually seen the cat.
Nor did any have all the out-of-spec blood results until a few days after my
cat's death.
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 30 May 2005 20:52 GMT
> In house bloodwork.  Sending the blood to an outside lab was not a bad
> thing, regardless of the distance to the lab.  The samples are all Fed-Exed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it gets for an outside lab.  The benefit of an outside lab is that you get
> more information for the same or often less cost than in house.

Yes. In Maynard's case, they could do inhouse results in 45 minutes,
but it wouldn't be as detailed as the lab they send to. And it wasn't
going to cost me any more, nor was he in danger of dying within the
day. Serious, yes. But we could wait til 8am to see the results. It was
mostly obvious anyway. Nothing surprising or hopeful in the results.
They were hoping to find a sign of something that could be treated
rather than just old age liver failure.

.
> I have noticed that when clients try to self diagnose on the internet, they
> suffer from tunnel vision.  They lack the perspective that veterinary school
> and years of practice provide.  They focus on a few possibilities without
> realizing it may be something entirely different.  That's not to say they
> aren't right sometimes.

Yes, it is one thing to have an idea of what we are facing and what the
involves, but we still need to be open to other possibilities.

When my dog was diagnosed with mange, I looked up the treatment(which
is more complicated in shelties), so I knew that the long, repeated
treatment was standard. My mom tried to tell me the vet was cheating
me, but Sveeral vet websites said a special bath every other week for a
minimum of 3 months, even if it appears to clear up right away. We did
exactly that. Yes, It was expensive. But it worked, and wasn't out of
line with what other vets said.

Another case, with the same dog. She yelped badly when I pulled her
forward once. It was just a light squeeze, so no healthy dog should
have yelped. I had only had her for about 8 months at the time, and she
was definitely abused by the past owner. So, I figured she must have
had a broken rib from being kicked. Probably didn't heal right. I took
her to the vet for an x-ray. I knew we probably couldn't do anything,
but I would like to know what and where so that I wouldn't hurt her
again.

Before we even got to the x-ray, the vet clearly thought it was
something else.  He was stretching her legs, feeling her chest, and
asking a few questions. The hack that sounded like a cat with a
hairball? Well, that wasn't a hairball. That was her heart pushing on
her windpipe. We did the x-ray and he showed me how it is larger than
typical for her small size. And how it was pushing on her windpipe.

He explained it very well, but I was a bit freaked out being told my
new special dog had a heart problem. So, I did more research on my own,
eventually buying a medical book on small animal cardiovascualr
medicine. It was $100, and basically said the same thing that the vet
told me. But I felt better knowing it was not just one vet's opinion. I
realized I needed to trust my vet a bit more. It's been 8 years since
then (today is actually her 12th birthday), and once she lost her
excess weight, her hacking stopped. I can always tell when she is
gaining because the cough comes back. And I have kept her on a special
diet all these years which has really helped.

> Finally, please do remember that your veterinarian does see many patients
> everyday.  Sometimes we are juggling several sick patients at the same time.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Part of my job is to figure out, under often emotional circumstances, what
> level of care the client wants.

Yes, and it also varies with the actual problem. If Maynard had been
strong and healthy (and somewhat younger), I would have pushed for some
cure and run myself broke trying. But he was an old, underweight,
frail, 19 year old kitty who wouldn't have lived much longer
regardless. I couldn't see putting him through the treatment when it
was obviously not going to help him much. A few more months maybe, but
at what cost to both of us (financially, emotionally, andhis quality of
life)?

I doscovered with my first dog that a lot of people would automatically
put down a blind dog. Seems shocking to me, but that was what I heard
from a lot of people who laughed at me when I told them my dog was
blind. Back when the vet determined she was losing her sight, we were
ready to go the distance literally. About 600 miles and $600 to the
nearest vet school for cataract surgery. Fortunately, they insisted we
get a specific diagnosis from a specialist. So, we did that and found
out that she didn't have cataracts, instead had a genetic disease which
cannot be treated or cured.

> No one should ever "blindly" trust **anyone** else's advice. If things don't
> make sense or aren't improving, get another opinion, ask more pointed
> questions. or do your own research.

Yes. I will ask questions or do my research in advance, if I am waiting
for the vet to open. I'm a night owl, so I get home from work late at
night and then spend the night awake, so most of my awake time at home
(and with the animals) is at night, so that is when I find the
problems. And then I have to wait til the vet opens. So, time to look
in my books, and time to search the web.

Also, when I am not sure which way to proceed, then I come here. That
is what I did with Maynard. I got conflicting information from the
first vet and my mom's friend (a former vet tech), and also conflicting
information at home (don't let him suffer, don't give up on him). I
knew that *I* was biased for sure. And the vet, while usually good, can
be biased (and in this case, I think the assistant was - teh actual vet
did not suggest the expensive treatments, but a wait-and-see plan). So,
I knew I could come here for a non-biased opinion. But I only did that
after seeing the vet. I knew the first step was to get him to the vet.

I also want to remind some people and thank the vets. They have it
really tough. Yes, they do have to keep somewhat restrained in
emotions. They can't sit there and cry over our pets. They would never
get anything done. But that doesn't mean they don't care. Or that they
don't go home and stew over it.

When my first dog was out down, the vet looked so sad. He sighed and
said this was his 5th dog to put down that day. He looked so down that
I wanted to comfort him. He was very professional and did what he
needed to do, but he was obviously very affected by it.

And last week, when I took Maynard in, it was a very hectic day. They
only have tow vets at the office, and two days a week, one does
surgeries and one does all the walk-ins. We were first after the dog
being worked on, but it was still almost an hour before the vet was
ready for us. Many people came and left because the line was so long.
And we saw a large dog being carried out to the car, wrapped up. I
don't know if that was the same dog being worked on, but it had to have
been a tough day. But the vet came out to car for us, and euthanized my
cat in my lap, and he was very kind as always. Maynard couldn't have
gone more peacefully, so it was well the wait, and the extra distance
to go my old vet. The new vet is nice and only 10 minutes away, but the
old vet will come to the car for euthanasia, so we don't have to sit in
the waiting room crying with an audience of kids, and the cat doesn't
spend that time stressing in the office. And we get to take the body
home if we want to.
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 04:27 GMT
> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had
> ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
> single blood glucose of 363-ish on a cranky cat is hardly diagnositic.

Sorry, Doc- there's no excuse.

In either case, the vet erred terribly.  With a BG of 363 mg/dl in a
fractious cat the vet should have suspected stress-induced hyperglycemia and
ordered serum fructosamine concentration analysis since SF concentrations
aren't affected by physiologic (stress-induced) hyperglycemia.  If SF
analysis wasn't available, he should have checked for glucosuria since
stress-hyperglycemia usually doesn't produce glucosuria unless the stress is
sustained.  The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been
longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in the
urine.  If the cat was ketoacidotic, the urine dipstick would have also
detected ketonuria.  This isn't hindsight--these are basic routine
diagnostics.

The vet could have also instructed Elle how to check BG at home with a
simple, inexpensive glucometer.  This would have minimized the 'white coat'
effect and produced a more reliable BG reading.

It's
> possible the cat didn't even have diabetes and giving insulin to an already
> sick cat caused fatal hypoglycemia.

I was unaware that the vet gave the cat insulin without confirming that the
cat was in fact diabetic!!!  This is gross incompetence boarding on criminal
malpractice!

Apparently, I don't know the whole story- but what I do know sounds
horrible.  Had he treated my cat in this manner, he'd be practicing vet med
on Pegasus or Leo right now.

Phil
Elle - 31 May 2005 05:25 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>
snip but all of Phil P.'s comments are noted
> I was unaware that the vet gave the cat insulin without confirming that the
> cat was in fact diabetic!!!

No, no; this isn't what happened. The vet visit and blood drawing was on
Monday afternoon. My cat was at home on Tuesday, though he his condition had
worsened. The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the
vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in fact
as good a diagnosis as could possibly be made at the time. It's absolutely
consistent with several symptoms my cat was displaying (weight loss; loss of
appetite; sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then
the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... ) He said the cat
would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most
worried about my cat's potassium level. He recommended a certain oral
potassium gel. He said his office could administer the insulin and monitor
the blood. I said I needed to think about it all for an hour. I started
making inquiries (see some of my posts here on Tuesday, March 22), called
back, arranged to pick up the potassium gel that afternoon, and said I
wanted to monitor my cat's blood and administer the insulin; could he give
me a lesson? He was agreeable to this. (His assistant kept saying I couldn't
do this, but once I heard from the vet on the matter, I just ignored her
comments.) We made an appointment for first thing the next morning.
Wednesday morning about 8:30 AM he gave me a good lesson in giving
injections. He set a dose level which seemed reasonable, based on what I was
reading, though without question I was in a tremendous hurry to absorb a lot
of info in short order and things could not have been done perfectly. As MK
pointed out, I could have botched it. I did not check the blood sugar prior
to the first injection. On the third hand, even before I gave the first
injection, my cat was incredibly weakened. Right after I gave the first
injection, I called the vet, with I'm sure obvious tremoring in my voice, to
say my cat was very weak; how long before the insulin kicked in. He did say
bringing him in was an option.

But I simply didn't know the symptoms of being near death nor of
ketoacidosis. (Now I do.) I decided to wait and see. Whether I botched the
insulin dose or ketoacidosis had set in or he died of congestive heart
failure due to the effects of the diabetes is not clear. His suffering was,
however. That's my biggest objection with the vet. I feel the suffering
could have been avoided.

I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks
earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter
clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly physical
was due for late March. I blew it.

Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again.
Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days.

I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope
people's energies now go into him.
Candace - 31 May 2005 06:37 GMT
> I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks
> earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter
> clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly >physical
> was due for late March. I blew it.

I responded to this a little while ago and I don't see that it showed
up so sorry if there are 2 posts from me re: this.  I'm very sorry you
feel this is your fault, Elle.  Grief is hard enough without guilt and
self-blame thrown in.  We all miss things sometimes.  I had a cat a few
years ago who had weight loss and I never noticed it.  She was terminal
by the time we took her to the vet.  She was eating and we just never
saw the weight loss.  I was shocked to find out her weight when we went
in.  And his physical couldn't have been very late.  Who among us goes
to the doctor or the vet right on time for our own exams or those of
our pets?  I sure don't, esp. for my own.  You get busy, you put it
off...You're being very hard on yourself and I feel badly for that.

You loved your cat, he knew it, you gave him a good life.  His ending
is unfortunate, certainly.  But you did the best you possibly could
with the information you had and that is all anyone can do.  You were
not negligent.  Your kitty would not want you to feel like this was
your responsibility, I'm sure.  I hope you can remember all the good
times you had with him instead of painfully thinking of what might have
been at the end.  

Please don't be so hard on yourself.

Candace
Elle - 31 May 2005 15:59 GMT
> Elle wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> our pets?  I sure don't, esp. for my own.  You get busy, you put it
> off...You're being very hard on yourself and I feel badly for that.

Candace, thank you, and others (maybe you also) at the time posted similar
comments here and/or at FDMB.

I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a
rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a
cat or have a cat that suffers. Also, I think honesty is important. I
absolutely could never say this was all the vet's fault. I am trying to be
fair and realize where I messed up, too.
Mary - 31 May 2005 17:56 GMT
> I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a
> rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a
> cat or have a cat that suffers. Also, I think honesty is important. I
> absolutely could never say this was all the vet's fault. I am trying to be
> fair and realize where I messed up, too.

A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT
include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet
at the first sign of illness or injury, "broken tails" included.
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 22:45 GMT
> > I feel bad but am not exactly suffering over it. Just trying to take a
> > rational approach so the next time, I'm more intelligent and don't lose a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet
> at the first sign of illness or injury, "broken tails" included.

I agree, absolutely.  Taking a cat to the vet at the first sign of a problem
is unequivocally the best thing to do. Most diseases are amenable to
treatment in their early stages. By the time cats start showing symptoms its
already late, so, we should not delay veterinary care for a minute.  Its
often difficult to tell if the symptoms are those of a life-threatening
condition. Research should be done while the cat is receiving care.

People usually read the instruction manual for a computer or new appliance,
car or toy and even lawn care.  New or soon-to-be parents read books on
child care.  So why is it that so few people read books about basic cat
care?  I'm not talking about expensive veterinary medical textbooks- but
easy-to-read $15- $25 cat health books such as the Cornell Book of Cats.
There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also
include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins.

Phil
Meghan Noecker - 31 May 2005 23:13 GMT
>People usually read the instruction manual for a computer or new appliance,
>car or toy and even lawn care.  New or soon-to-be parents read books on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also
>include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins.

Excellent point. I keep one of each for dogs and cats on my shelf. I
can look something up in just a couple minutes, then grab the carrier
and go. It doesn't take long to get a basic idea of what to consider.

The only valid reasons I can think of for a delay are the vet being
closed, or waiting for a ride (although in an emergency, a cab should
be called if the ride is not immediately available).

Even if you don't have the cash on hand, you don't pay til you pick
them up. When Maynard had his abcess a few years ago, it ended up
being $243 with treatment and senior bloodwork. I had just gotten paid
that morning, but it was a little more than my paycheck. So, while the
vet was treating my cat, we went to the bank, and my dad transferred
money into my account. When I picked him, I paid the bill and took my
happier cat home. I paid my dad back the next week. Sure, I had other
plans for that money, and I got dinged a late fee for one of my bills.
But the cat was higher priority than a credit card bill. And I have
enough food in the freezer to pack lunch for a week. No big deal. The
cat was good, and that was all I cared about.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Mary - 01 Jun 2005 00:27 GMT
> > A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT
> > include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> There are several other good books on basic cat care and diseases that also
> include chapters on First Aid and poisons and toxins.

Thank you, Phil.
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 00:53 GMT
> > > A rational approach to the terrible thing that happened does NOT
> > > include suggesting that people should NOT take their cats to the vet
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thank you, Phil.

If I could get away with it, I'd make people take at least a 3-hour class on
basic cat care before being allowed to adopt- or even buy- a cat.  Fat
chance.  Some a.sholes don't even want to sign the adoption aggreement.

Phil
Candace - 31 May 2005 07:02 GMT
> I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks
> earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't realize his litter
> clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly >physical was due for late March. I blew it.

I'm truly sorry you feel this way, Elle.  I know we all have doubts and
second guess ourselves after a loved pet dies.  I had a cat who lost
weight also a few years ago and we just did not notice it.  I don't
know why.  She was terminally ill by the time we took her to the vet.
She had been eating and we never noticed her weight loss.  When you're
with them everyday like that, I think it's hard to discern a weight
loss unless someone else mentions it to you.  And, as for the yearly
physical, you didn't miss it by much.  A lot of people go longer than a
year, way longer, on their pets' and their own exams.  I know I do--on
theirs and mine.

Grief for a loved one is bad enough without self-blame and guilt thrown
in.  I hope you are able to come to terms with the fact that you loved
your cat and he knew it and you did the best you could with the
information you had at the time.  No one can expect more.  You were
hardly negligent.   I hope you will be able to focus on the happiness
you brought each other and be able to put his unfortunate death behind
you at some point.  It's too sad, I'm sure he wouldn't want you to feel
this way.

Candace
> Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again.
> Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days.
>
> I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope
> people's energies now go into him.
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 07:07 GMT
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>
> snip but all of Phil P.'s comments are noted
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Monday afternoon. My cat was at home on Tuesday, though he his condition had
> worsened.

My mistake.  I was under the impression your cat's condition deteriorated
after receiving insulin.

The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the
> vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in fact
> as good a diagnosis as could possibly be made at the time. It's absolutely
> consistent with several symptoms my cat was displaying (weight loss; loss of
> appetite;

Loss of appetite isn't a symptom of diabetes- In fact, its just the
opposite- polyphagia.  The feeling of hunger is controlled by the amount of
glucose entering the 'satiety center' in the hypothalamus- which is
controlled by insulin.  In diabetic cats with a relative or absolute lack of
insulin glucose can't enter the satiety center and inhibit hunger and the
'feeding center' (also in the hypothalamus) so the cat always feels hungry
and has a ravenous appetite regardless of hyperglycemia or how much she
eats.

sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then
> the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... )

Diabetic neuropathies aren't very common in cats.  When it does occur, the
cat develops a plantigrade posture- (i.e., the hocks touching the ground
when she walks).

He said the cat
> would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most
> worried about my cat's potassium level. He recommended a certain oral
> potassium gel.

Hindleg weakness may have been caused by hypokalemic polymyopathy rather
than diabetic neuropathy or even a  thromboembolism ('saddle thrombus').

He said his office could administer the insulin and monitor
> the blood. I said I needed to think about it all for an hour. I started
> making inquiries (see some of my posts here on Tuesday, March 22), called
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> pointed out, I could have botched it. I did not check the blood sugar prior
> to the first injection.

On the third hand, even before I gave the first
> injection, my cat was incredibly weakened. Right after I gave the first
> injection, I called the vet, with I'm sure obvious tremoring in my voice, to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in weeks
> earlier but was in denial about his weight loss.

Weight loss is very difficult to notice in a cat you see every day
(especially in long-haired cats)-- until its too late.  This why I think the
best investment a person can make in their cat's healthcare program is a
good pediatric scale.  Weight loss is usually a symptom of disease.  A good
pediatric scale will detect subtle weight loss in the early stages when most
diseases are amenable to treatment.  A good pediatric scale is the next best
thing to semiannual exams.

I didn't realize his litter
> clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly physical
> was due for late March. I blew it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I see there's another, new sick diabetic cat with the group, and I hope
> people's energies now go into him.

I'm sorry for your loss- but his death won't be in vain if you've learned a
few things and help others.

Best of luck,

Phil
friesian@zoocrewphoto.com - 31 May 2005 08:15 GMT
> Weight loss is very difficult to notice in a cat you see every day
> (especially in long-haired cats)-- until its too late.  This why I think the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> diseases are amenable to treatment.  A good pediatric scale is the next best
> thing to semiannual exams.

I'll second this. I was able to find a nice used pediatric scale for
only $20. I think they run new for about $40, but the store was out
when I looked. It does anywhere from a pound to 40 lbs, so I can do all
my cats and dogs on it.

I was shocked to see that Maynard lost almost half a pound in one day.
I weighed him right before each vet visit so that I could give them the
weight at check-in. Their scale doesn't really do cats well since you
have to weigh them in the carrier, then go back and weigh the carrier
without the cat.

It is great for my dog and my longer haired cats. I usually only check
them once a month or so since they are all fine. But I just get it out
and weigh everybody and see what changes have occurred. My new boy has
gained weight, and too much. Gotta get him to lose a pound or so now.
He actually went and plopped himself down for a nap on it a few days
ago. Pretty cute :)
Elle - 31 May 2005 16:08 GMT
> "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> My mistake.  I was under the impression your cat's condition deteriorated
> after receiving insulin.

It may have. He was so ill just before I gave him the insulin that I
couldn't make a reasonable distinction.

> The blood results arrived at the vet's c. 9:30 AM. At 1:30 PM, the
> > vet called with his diabetes diagnosis. In hindsight I feel this was in
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and has a ravenous appetite regardless of hyperglycemia or how much she
> eats.

My cat hadn't eaten (or drunk, I believe) for approximately 36 hours prior
to his death.

> sticky urine litter clumps; drinking more water; lethargy; then
> > the weakened hind legs, which of course means more... )
>
>  Diabetic neuropathies aren't very common in cats.  When it does occur, the
> cat develops a plantigrade posture- (i.e., the hocks touching the ground
> when she walks).

FDMB on the other hand does report a neuropathy situation now and then.
Hocks touching the ground is how I would describe my cat's walking in his
last two days or so.

>  He said the cat
> > would need blood monitoring and insulin shots but right then he was most
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> diseases are amenable to treatment.  A good pediatric scale is the next best
> thing to semiannual exams.

I did indeed recently buy a scale, but not a pediatric one. It's good to a
half pound. I do monitor my two cats' weights. I do now count calories and
try to maintain my cats' weights at a healthy level. Lately I'm also using a
rib rule I saw at a site: One should just be able to feel the ribs, under a
thin layer of fat, with a cat that is at the proper weight.

> I didn't realize his litter
> > clumps had changed so as to indicate sugar in his urine. His yearly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'm sorry for your loss- but his death won't be in vain if you've learned a
> few things and help others.

I agree.
Philip - 31 May 2005 17:32 GMT
snip
> I take responsibility for his death. I should have brought him in
> weeks earlier but was in denial about his weight loss. I didn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thank you for your input. Sorry to put the group through this again.
> Everyone was very kind in the ensuing days.
snip

Elle ... are you having any self mutilation ideations?  I sincerely hope
not. This was an inflight learning process from which your surviving cats
will benefit. That is the gift in this experience.
John Ross Mc Master - 31 May 2005 19:56 GMT
1chip-state1@earthlink.net
IP # 64.203.38.114

OrgAbuseName:   ABUSE TEAM
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-404-815-0770
OrgAbuseEmail:  abuse@abuse.earthlink.net
Nomen Nescio - 31 May 2005 20:40 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: John Ross Mc Master <pussycat@cathouse.meow>

>1chip-state1@earthlink.net
>IP # 64.203.38.114
>
>OrgAbuseName:   ABUSE TEAM
>OrgAbusePhone:  +1-404-815-0770
>OrgAbuseEmail:  abuse@abuse.earthlink.net

Congratulations, John.
You have become the second of only 2 people that I've
ever killfiled. The "Puppy Wizard" was the first (which should
tell you how much of an a.shole you're being).
That netkop crap gets REALLY irritating after the first hundred
times.
Janet B - 31 May 2005 20:42 GMT
>That netkop crap gets REALLY irritating after the first hundred
>times.

Not to mention, what is he netkopping ABOUT?

Signature

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

Elle - 31 May 2005 05:31 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote
snip
> In either case, the vet erred terribly.  With a BG of 363 mg/dl in a
> fractious cat the vet should have suspected stress-induced hyperglycemia and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> stress-hyperglycemia usually doesn't produce glucosuria unless the stress is
> sustained.

Phil P., may I ask: How did you learn this point? Are you a vet, vet
assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another? I don't think I heard
this one at the Feline Diabetes Message Board.

I'm asking because it will help me and others to understand the learning
process.

> The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been
> longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The vet could have also instructed Elle how to check BG at home with a
> simple, inexpensive glucometer.

Yes, dang it, though without question by 4 PM Tuesday afternoon (less than
24 hours before my cat passed away) I was struggling mightily to take in all
this new information about treating diabetic cats. Since I was in denial or
my vet didn't seem particularlly concerned, or a combination of both, I
didn't stay up all night researching the matter. It was a trying night as I
knew my cat was out of sorts so I was up about 6 AM, already wiped out and
very worried (yet in denial, dammit).
Phil P. - 31 May 2005 07:05 GMT
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote
> snip
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Phil P., may I ask: How did you learn this point?

Many years of research and experience regulating many diabetic cats.  I work
with all the cats with special needs at my shelter.

Are you a vet, vet
> assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another?

None of the above- although it depends on your definition of 'cat
specialist'. Cats are indeed very special to me.  ;->

I don't think I heard
> this one at the Feline Diabetes Message Board.
>
> I'm asking because it will help me and others to understand the learning
> process.

Urine dipsticks are only good for screening and also checking for ketones
because ketonuria usually preceeds ketonemia.  They're no good for
monitoring BG or adjusting insulin dosages because cats have a very high
renal threshold- could be as high as 200>290 mg/dl.  So, a cat that tests
'negative' for glucosuria could still be hyperglycemic.  Also, dipsicks
can't detect hypoglycemia- the lowest they go is only 'negative'.  More
importantly, the urine in the bladder at the time of testing is usually an
accumulation of urine over several hours- including postprandial spikes.
IOW, urine glucose at the time of testing may not reflect the cat's true
glycemic state.  This can result in giving a cat insulin when the cat's BG
is actually normal which can result in fatal hypoglycemia.

> > The stress of the trip to the vet and exam wouldn't have been
> > longer than the lag time between hyperglycemia and glucose showing up in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> knew my cat was out of sorts so I was up about 6 AM, already wiped out and
> very worried (yet in denial, dammit).

This is not your fault.  The vet never should have made a diagnosis of
diabetes based on a *single* BG test of 363 mg/dl in a fractious cat-
especially without checking urine glucose.

Phil
Elle - 31 May 2005 16:03 GMT
> "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Many years of research and experience regulating many diabetic cats.  I work
> with all the cats with special needs at my shelter.

Great!

I definitely appreciate your rational informed responses on this, as well as
your posting that journal citation on chylothorax for Candace recently.
That's the sort of thing that really helps. (I say this as someone trained
in engineering and engineering research; someone who  understands the
scientific method.)

> Are you a vet, vet
> > assistant, or cat specialist of one kind or another?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> glycemic state.  This can result in giving a cat insulin when the cat's BG
> is actually normal which can result in fatal hypoglycemia.

I understand. I think I've read this point a few times before in the last
few months, so this is more common knowledge.
MK - 31 May 2005 13:51 GMT
>> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had
>> ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Phil

Yes, serum fructosamine may have helped.  However, a few things I read
recently questioned the reliability of fructosamine levels.  Apparently some
of the specialists aren't doing them as much and relying more on other
methods.  I don't remember the specifics.

I don't mean to make any excuses.  There's some things that could have been
done differently here.  I'm just guessing that in this case, based on what I
know of the cat's condition on the day of the exam and the bloodwork results
that it didn't seem to be an all-out emergency.  A glucose of 360-something
doesn't freak me out or anyone else that I've ever practiced with as long as
the cat is alert and responsive, etc.  A low potassium also doesn't freak me
out.  I can't tell you how many times I got all sweaty over a low or high
potassium and had a normal potassium on a repeat test, albeit more for the
high potassium than low.  Most DKA cats that I've been involved with have
had blood glucose levels well over 500.  That's why I said this was a bad
situation all around.  Assuming it was DKA, it could have been caught right
off the bat.  However, based on the cat's condition and bloodwork, it's
pretty unusual for them to just crash in that time frame.  That's why I'm
more concerned about no recheck being done despite a worsening condition.

Gotta run,
MK DVM
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 00:57 GMT
> >> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had
> >> ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> of the specialists aren't doing them as much and relying more on other
> methods.  I don't remember the specifics.

Perhaps glycosylated hemoglobin (GHb)? GHb provides a better picture of
glycemic control over a longer period of time- but I don't think the values
have been universally standardized.  Also, anemia and polycythemia can
falsely raise or lower the concentrations, so, the hematocrit must be taken
into consideration when interpreting the results.

> I don't mean to make any excuses.

No. no, no! ;->  I wasn't implying that you were making excuses for the
other vet.  I meant the other vet had no excuse for his blunders.

There's some things that could have been
> done differently here.  I'm just guessing that in this case, based on what I
> know of the cat's condition on the day of the exam and the bloodwork results
> that it didn't seem to be an all-out emergency.  A glucose of 360-something
> doesn't freak me out or anyone else that I've ever practiced with as long as
> the cat is alert and responsive, etc.

I agree. 360 mg/dl isn't really that high for a fractious cat.  I've seen
stress-hyperglycemia soar much higher than that only to return to normal a
few hours after the cat calmed down.

A low potassium also doesn't freak me
> out.

Low potassium does worry me because depletion of body stores of potassium
can occur before the onset of hypokalemia- and since there's no way to
measure ICF K+ reliably, I can't tell if total body K+ is critically
depleted.

I can't tell you how many times I got all sweaty over a low or high
> potassium and had a normal potassium on a repeat test, albeit more for the
> high potassium than low.

I guess its just redistribution (ECF->ICF) most of the time.

Most DKA cats that I've been involved with have
> had blood glucose levels well over 500.  That's why I said this was a bad
> situation all around.  Assuming it was DKA, it could have been caught right
> off the bat.  However, based on the cat's condition and bloodwork, it's
> pretty unusual for them to just crash in that time frame.

Maybe not- the cat could have been ketoacidotic for awhile and the stress of
the trip to the vet pushed him over the edge.

That's why I'm
> more concerned about no recheck being done despite a worsening condition.

Actually, in view of the cat's condition, I don't think the vet should have
released the cat until he was stabalized and a definitive diagnosis of
diabetes and/or ketoacidosis or whatever was reached.

I've noticed a disturbing trend of many vets becoming lazy and simply
sending out tests and wasting precious time waiting for results rather than
running certain in-house tests that might provide immediate life-saving
information. Sometimes, a few hours can make the difference between life and
death.

Phil
MK - 01 Jun 2005 04:28 GMT
>> >> Another question that comes to mind is how do we know this cat had
>> >> ketoacidosis anyway?  We don't even know that the cat had diabetes.  A
[quoted text clipped - 123 lines]
>
> Phil

The thing I see with in-house testing is that only a few tests are done and
it's left at that.  Sometimes it's due to client financial limitations,
other times I really don't know why.  We have a pretty full in-house lab and
we use it a lot.  You do have to pay for it somehow.  Whether to run the
tests in-house or send them to the lab is just a judgement call.

MK DVM
Phil P. - 01 Jun 2005 19:43 GMT
> > I've noticed a disturbing trend of many vets becoming lazy and simply
> > sending out tests and wasting precious time waiting for results rather
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> other times I really don't know why.  We have a pretty full in-house lab and
> we use it a lot.  You do have to pay for it somehow.

I would think most practices would want run tests in house since the results
are available immediately which would permit treatment to begin sooner- and
also because the profit is much higher.

In-house chemistry analyzers cost about $95/mo and about $15-$20/chemscreen.
Hematology analyzers cost about $300/month and about $4/hemagram. Two
CBC/chemscreens pays the equipment cost for the month and the markup per
patient is 500% opposed to 50% markup on outside tests.  Three
CBC/chemscreens/week pays the vet tech's weekly salary.

Whether to run the
> tests in-house or send them to the lab is just a judgement call.

Some vets rather take the 50% markup than be bothered running the tests
in-house.

Phil
Candace - 29 May 2005 20:56 GMT
> He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any doctor
> with a case load must guard their mental health from getting personally
> invested in your emotions.

I didn't say he SHOULD.  I said he DOESN'T.  There was no "should"
implied.

> How self centered you are.  How many people like you with a sick kitty do
> you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for however many years
> the vet has been in practice?  Hmmmn?  Do you think there is no cumulative
> effect on the vet's mental health?  He/she cannot afford to get invested in
> your emotional drama to the degree you'd like.

I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!!  Sheesh, no wonder everyone is always
trying to ream you a new a-hole, you're obstinate.

> This too shall pass.

Yeah, I'm sure it will someday after she dies.  Time heals all wounds,
after all.  That doesn't make it any easier now but thanks for your
compassion and astute observations (sarcasm, in case you don't get it).

Candace
Philip - 29 May 2005 21:36 GMT
>> He/she should NOT "feel" as strongly as you. A vet ... just like any
>> doctor with a case load must guard their mental health from getting
>> personally invested in your emotions.
>>
> I didn't say he SHOULD.  I said he DOESN'T.  There was no "should"
> implied.

A distinction without a difference.

>> How self centered you are.  How many people like you with a sick
>> kitty do you think a busy vet sees everyday, 5 days a week, for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!!

That you mention it suggests otherwise.

>> This too shall pass.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Candace

Carry on, Candace.
Candace - 29 May 2005 22:28 GMT
> > I didn't say he SHOULD.  I said he DOESN'T.  There was no "should"
> > implied.
>
> A distinction without a difference.

Really.  The words have different meanings.  D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y.

> > I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!!
>
> That you mention it suggests otherwise.

I was setting up *why* we should be our own advocates and not trust
them to be.  I don't think they SHOULD.

> Carry on, Candace.

f.ck off, Philip.
Philip - 29 May 2005 22:42 GMT
>>> I didn't say he SHOULD.  I said he DOESN'T.  There was no "should"
>>> implied.
>>
>> A distinction without a difference.
>
> Really.  The words have different meanings.  D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y.

Good!  You can spell.  Now look at end results. I do.  Try it sometime for
yourself.

>>> I didn't say he SHOULD!!!!!!!
>>
>> That you mention it suggests otherwise.
>
> I was setting up *why* we should be our own advocates and not trust
> them to be.  I don't think they SHOULD.

In fact, physicians and vets start out in the position of patient advocate
... a advocate with a vested interest. It is up to you to advocate for your
pet as you become qualified to do so.  Be sure you really are qualified ...
not just a self appointed wind bag of emotions.

>> Carry on, Candace.
>
> f.ck off, Philip.

Let's continue this on the pussy washing thread.
Mary - 29 May 2005 19:38 GMT
> One of the Marys here pointed out today that I did not respond to some
> requests to elaborate on the following (which I posted in response to John
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> ensure optimal health care. If possible, one should never, ever blindly
> trust the advice of a vet. Thus my comment on May 13.

Well, I see your point. However, in most cases taking a sick
or injured animal to the vet right away is to be desired. We have
too many people posting here who simply do not want to spend
the money on a vet when that is exactly what their cat needs.
Sure, inform yourself. But get the cat to the vet first. You can
ask the vet questions. You can even delay treatment if you need
to, until you questions are answered. What does not benefit
the cat is sitting around at home with him while he suffers and
you look stuff up on the Internet.
Elle - 29 May 2005 19:58 GMT
> Well, I see your point. However, in most cases taking a sick
> or injured animal to the vet right away is to be desired. We have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ask the vet questions. You can even delay treatment if you need
> to, until you questions are answered.

I trust you understand that this will depend, as my example illustrates.
Once my cat's symptoms seemed serious, I had less than 48 hours to save my
cat's life. Delaying treatment was absolutely not an option, in my
estimation. I got the cat to the vet Monday. He perceived nothing
life-threatening, even by Tuesday after the results were in. I TRUSTED the
one vet. It was a mistake.

Though again, I take responsibility for not doing something sooner. He had
not become lethargic until maybe Sunday...

> What does not benefit
> the cat is sitting around at home with him while he suffers and
> you look stuff up on the Internet.

I hope we can agree to disagree civilly. Some vets are not competent or do
not have the time to give to one's cat. I suppose in a perfect world the
guardian of a cat could get the cat to a vet and do his/her own research, so
if the vet is responding questionably, a person can get the cat to another
vet, or do whatever his/her research is best. Then too telling a vet you
doubt his/her diagnosis is always fun (not). Plus I already was dealing with
a witchy vet assistant Tuesday afternoon telling me that I could neither
monitor blood glucose levels at home nor administer insulin by myself. No
ifs ands or buts. (The vet himself was better on this point.) I didn't get
to the Feline Diabetes Message Board until Wednesday morning 6 AM, after a
pretty sleepless night with my sick cat... I don't want to review it
again... to get the needed reinforcement and some skill-instruction.

I just think people need to be more aggressive when they sense an
overwhelmed doctor, surgeon, or vet, and always, always do research on their
own, to optimize care.

I'll kick in that I had similar experience caring for, for one, an ulcered
hip wound in a grandparent. Darned physician's office was saying one thing.
I asked at a nursing board and they said to stop doing this one thing; it
traumatized the wound. The physician subsequently did an about face and
agreed with what people at the nursing board said.

Which of course reminds me of my father's hospital stay some years ago when
the staff gave him the completely wrong medication. Never again will my
mother leave him by himself in the hospital.

Which reminds me of a friend whose husband had kidney stones and a tube
going into his back to his kidney area for some sort of flushing, all in the
hospital. Early in the morning he was in pain and called his wife at home.
She came in, saw not only that he was in pain but that he was mentally out
of sorts. She called the nurse (again), who found nothing and got more pain
killer from the doctor. My friend meanwhile inspected the tube going to his
kidney area and saw that the last shift had left the valve on the tube shut.
She knew what was going on; opened the valve, and her husband was
immediately relieved. Later she wrote the head nurse, who profusely
apologized; agreed a terrible mistake had been made; and said education
would happen.

The best health care occurs when family members are there to watch the staff
(doctors included) like hawks, educating themselves as need be.
Candace - 29 May 2005 20:26 GMT
> I just think people need to be more aggressive when they sense an
> overwhelmed doctor, surgeon, or vet, and always, always do research on their
> own, to optimize care.

Yes, I definitely agree.  And let me add to my post before that one can
have the most dedicated, compassionate, informed, educated physician
(or vet) in the world and he may sincerely care about you but as well
as having his own family and his own life to live, he does also have
many other patients vying for his time and expertise.  You have to be
your own advocate (or your pet's advocate) as much as you can.

Some vets, I have noticed, respond well to you doing your own research;
others seem to take it as a personal affront.  With doctors, I have yet
to find one who responds very well to someone doing their own research.
Fortunately, I haven't had that much first-hand experience, nor do I
want to, but they do not seem to want to know what you have read on
your own.  They love to make the little, "Where did  you go to med
school?" type remarks.

> The best health care occurs when family members are there to watch the staff
> (doctors included) like hawks, educating themselves as need be.

Yes, I feel sorry for those who have no one because mistakes do happen
in hospitals.  Wrong meds are given, wrong tests are given, even wrong
surgeries happen.  It's a scary thing putting yourself into someone
else's hands and losing all control.

Candace
Elle - 29 May 2005 21:23 GMT
> Elle wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> many other patients vying for his time and expertise.  You have to be
> your own advocate (or your pet's advocate) as much as you can.

Agreed. (That's three people, with Philip, agreeing on Usenet! Someone call
Guinness to note the world record!)

> Some vets, I have noticed, respond well to you doing your own research;
> others seem to take it as a personal affront.  With doctors, I have yet
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> your own.  They love to make the little, "Where did  you go to med
> school?" type remarks.

Heh. Fortunately I have never actually heard this line but I know of one MD
I saw years ago who had this attitude.

Of the maybe six or so MDs I've seen in the last years (for myself or with
family members), I think about half were clearly for _teaming with_ the
patient to solve his/her medical problem. This is, as I'm sure you know
Candace, the logical approach. There is no way the MD can know many of the
patient's bodily specifics as well as the patient can. (You pointed this
out, too, re knowing one's cat.)

So a comment like the above from a doctor is right away to me a tip-off that
the doc is ignorant. Time to find another one, for many reasons.

But for fun I've been thinking about what would be some effective responses
to a statement like the one above ("Where did you go to med school?"). How
about