>I can't make out the entire report- some parts are cut off. Would you mind
>re-scanning and sending it to me again? I don't want to give you an opinion
>based on incomplete data.
>I'm kinda stumped. The only thing I come up with for cat this young with
>HCM is a congential defect. Do you know if any of his siblings have similar
>problems or if either of his parents have HCM in their lines?
>I just wish I could be more helpful.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and contains History, Physical, Echo (with scales, dimensions,
> and description),
The ends of the sentences on Pg 1 are chopped off.
and ends with a line followed by
> "John E,Rush DVM, MS,Dip ACVIM Cardiology, ACVECC"
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If not, please let me know what you're missing and I'll re-send
> it.
Please do. If you can set the size, use 600 x 800.
> >What I could make out seems encouraging! The left ventricular chamber size
> >isn't increased and the left atrium is only mildly increased. When the IVS
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> could be a restriction in the downstream "piping"
> system.
My first thought was (congenital) subaortic stenosis- but the echo was
negative.
> One thing that jumps out at me is TK's roundworm problem.
> I've read that they can move through the circulatory system
> and get into the lungs and liver. Could this have possibly
> caused a restriction and forced the heart to work harder
> at a higher pressure?
Actually, I meant I don't know what's causing the hyperthrophy. I know
what's causing the increased pressure-- Hypertrophy decreases LV flexibility
and relaxation. So, higher (diastolic) pressures are needed to fill the LV.
Congenital subaortic stenosis can cause LV hypertrophy and higher pressures-
but from what I could read of the report it didn't mention stenosis.
He was wormed in the Spring of
> '04 and subsequently tested negative. But this Spring he
> tested positive, again, and was wormed last month. The
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> of a murmur to a level 3 in 6 months seems awfully
> quick.
It does- that's why I considered a congenital or heritable defect.
Sometimes congenital/heritable defects take a few months to present
themselves.
> Another thing that I'll throw out as info. is that fact that
> TK has some powerful "kitty breath". He's been checked
> a couple of times for mouth, tooth, throat, infections and
> looks fine. And while NO cat that I've ever met has
> minty fresh breath, his seems a little on the strong side.
His breath doesn't have an odor of ammonia, does it?
> Something else that just came to me as I'm writing
> this. We had a problem with our heating system
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Could the HCM possibly be connected to trace
> amounts of CO in the air over several months?
I never heard of CO2 as a cause of HCM. Although the heart would have to
pump harder and faster to pump more oxygen-carrying RBCs to the system and
get rid of the CO2.
> >I'm kinda stumped. The only thing I come up with for cat this young with
> >HCM is a congential defect. Do you know if any of his siblings have similar
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> some a.shole dumped. But we do know that he's got a lot
> of "wild" instincts and behaviors.
Its also possible that he had a murmur and the first vet missed it.
Purring can interfere with hearing heart sounds. I've caught several
murmurs that vets missed- and I'm not even a vet. I have an electronic
stethoscope that amplifies and records heart sounds- which I can play back
at the vet's office. It's a little expensive (~$500) but it would help you
monitor TK's heart between check-ups. You can also send the recording to
your computer where you can email it to your vet between exams.
> >I just wish I could be more helpful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and the time you've taken to help.
> You're one of "the good ones", Phil.
Thanks.
I know its expensive, but you might want to repeat the echo in 3 months to
see if TK is responding to therapy and see if there's and increase or
decrease in hypertrophy and changes in the LV and LA sizes.
Keep the faith.
Phil
Brad - 07 Jun 2005 03:29 GMT
Kudo's to you Phil P.....I know you aren't looking for them but I am
sending them over anyway......It appears from reading your posts that
you aren't a vet but extremely knowledgeable is this self study or are
you are retired vet...??......hope you don't mind my asking......
Brad
LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A
WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT,
SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"
Phil P. - 07 Jun 2005 07:23 GMT
> Kudo's to you Phil P.....I know you aren't looking for them but I am
> sending them over anyway......It appears from reading your posts that
> you aren't a vet but extremely knowledgeable is this self study or are
> you are retired vet...??.....
I've done a lot of research and I've also learned a lot from working with
many vets and many, many cats for many years.
>.hope you don't mind my asking......
Not at all.
Nomen Nescio - 07 Jun 2005 06:30 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
From: "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>
>The ends of the sentences on Pg 1 are chopped off.
>Please do. If you can set the size, use 600 x 800.
Sure, resized it to a 600 width. It's a little bit low resolution
but readable. I'll send it out after I post this.
>His breath doesn't have an odor of ammonia, does it?
Oh, great. You just got me to stick my nose in his face
and slowly savor the aroma. :)
No , I can't detect any ammonia odor.
It just smells like kitty breath, to me.
>I never heard of CO2 as a cause of HCM. Although the heart would have to
>pump harder and faster to pump more oxygen-carrying RBCs to the system and
>get rid of the CO2.
I was talking about CO (carbon monoxide). My wife and/or
I would probably have noticed some effects if we had CO
in the house at any significant concentrations. I was wondering
if cats might be more sensitive to very low concentrations.
I'm really just trying to find something that's non-genetic that
might be the cause. I guess I'm feeling a little desperate.
I can't say that I've ever, in my life, wanted to fix a problem
as much as I want to give TK a long, healthy, happy life.
The poor little guy was given such a shitty start in life and
(as silly as it sounds) I promised him a year ago that
"life will be good from now on".
>Its also possible that he had a murmur and the first vet missed it.
The same vet that first saw him a year ago, and did a checkup
last August, is the one that first detected the murmur. So I think
it's a good assumption that it developed in the past 6 months.
>Purring can interfere with hearing heart sounds.
I can assure you......He ain't purring in the vets office.:)
I've been listening to his heart at least every other day and
I would swear that it's sounding a little better this past week.
But our vet thought it was funny that I was listening to his
heart with a stethoscope since without any formal training
she felt it was pretty much a "waste of time". But she did,
somewhat reluctantly, show me what she was hearing.
>I know its expensive, but you might want to repeat the echo in 3 months to
>see if TK is responding to therapy and see if there's and increase or
>decrease in hypertrophy and changes in the LV and LA sizes.
Thanks for confirming that I may not be as neurotic about
this as I thought I might be. I've been thinking the same thing.
Do you think that 3 month gives the diltiazem enough time
to have a noticable effect? I would assume that you do.
I know that I'm starting to sound like a broken record....
But I really can't tell you how much I appreciate your help.
Annie Wxill - 08 Jun 2005 02:35 GMT
...> I can't say that I've ever, in my life, wanted to fix a problem
> as much as I want to give TK a long, healthy, happy life.
> The poor little guy was given such a shitty start in life and
> (as silly as it sounds) I promised him a year ago that
> "life will be good from now on".
Nomen,
Best wishes for you to find the source and solution to TK's problems.
I hope he has that long, happy life you have planned. Even then, we never
have our kitties long enough.
I would say that whatever the outcome, that you are keeping your promise by
giving him such loving care.
Annie
Nomen Nescio - 09 Jun 2005 21:00 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hi Phil, I was just wondering if the re-scanned report
came through OK and readable.
And a couple of questions:
Under the section "Physical", the report says
"JVD-1/3-1/2 way up the neck".....What does that mean?
Under the section "Echo", after the dimension there's
always another number like (4.91 SD)....What's the
significance of that number and what does "SD" mean.
Do you happen to know of any web sites or books that
define and explain all the abbreviations that vets use.
>>But to go from no trace
>> of a murmur to a level 3 in 6 months seems awfully
>> quick.
>It does- that's why I considered a congenital or heritable defect.
>Sometimes congenital/heritable defects take a few months to present
>themselves.
But is that something that would be undetectable when a cat
is between 1 and 1 1/2 yrs old and appear at an age of 1 1/2 -
2 yrs. In the 1st 5 months he was with us, his heart was checked
by 4 different vets including the pre-neuter exam. Nobody
noticed anything.
I assume that stenosis could have a cumulative effect with every
heartbeat and eventually the enlarging of the heart walls would
cause the turbulence and the murmur. But from what you're saying,
it sounds like the stenosis should have been obvious during the
ultrasound.
It seems that the more I learn about what is going on, the less
I know about the "why". And I'm quickly running out of guesses.
Yet I know that nothing "just happens". There's always a cause
and effect.
Please let me know it the report came through OK.
And Thanks Again.
Phil P. - 10 Jun 2005 03:48 GMT
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Under the section "Physical", the report says
> "JVD-1/3-1/2 way up the neck".....What does that mean?
JVD = Jugular venous distension. Its a technique for assessing venous
pressure and righ-sided heart failure. You block (occlude) the jugular and
see how far up the neck the distention or pulsations goes. Normal jugular
pulsations travel about 1/3 of the way up the neck. So, TK's is about
normal.
Here's a picture that shows you what I mean.
http://www.maxshouse.com/Cardiology/jugular_venous_distention.jpg
> Under the section "Echo", after the dimension there's
> always another number like (4.91 SD)....What's the
> significance of that number and what does "SD" mean.
SD = Standard Deviation. Its a complicated (at least for me) measure of
variation between the average measurements of a group of cats. The closer
the measurement to the mean of the group the lower the SD. The higher the
measurement compared to mean group measurement the higher the SD. The
actual measurements are more important - to me.
> Do you happen to know of any web sites or books that
> define and explain all the abbreviations that vets use.
http://www.library.uiuc.edu/vex/vetdocs/abbreviation.htm
> >>But to go from no trace
> >> of a murmur to a level 3 in 6 months seems awfully
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is between 1 and 1 1/2 yrs old and appear at an age of 1 1/2 -
> 2 yrs.
Not necessarily. HCM can present at any age.
In the 1st 5 months he was with us, his heart was checked
> by 4 different vets including the pre-neuter exam. Nobody
> noticed anything.
A lot of vets dismiss murmurs in young cats and dogs as physiological- from
excitement and stress.
> I assume that stenosis could have a cumulative effect with every
> heartbeat and eventually the enlarging of the heart walls would
> cause the turbulence and the murmur. But from what you're saying,
> it sounds like the stenosis should have been obvious during the
> ultrasound.
No no no. aortic stenosis was just a guess- the echo ruled it out.
> It seems that the more I learn about what is going on, the less
> I know about the "why". And I'm quickly running out of guesses.
> Yet I know that nothing "just happens". There's always a cause
> and effect.
Most of the time the cause of HCM is never found.
> Please let me know it the report came through OK.
> And Thanks Again.
This one was a lot easier to read. I don't know how much more I can add-
the report doesn't look that bad. I've seen cats live many years with much
worse echoes than TK's.
You might want to join my Yahoo Group-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Health_and_Behavior/
RPCH+B has been going down the tubes lately.
Keep me posted on his progress.
Keep the faith!
Phil
Nomen Nescio - 10 Jun 2005 17:10 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Thanks again, Phil. I'm finally starting to feel like
I have a pretty good understanding of the situation.
You've really helped us a lot.