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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2005Triple vaccine side effects?
Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now lethargic, off his food and showing signs of annoyance when we stroke him, which is very unlike him as he has a sweet nature. Is this common or should we be worried? Any action we should take? He is lying on the bed at the moment.  SignatureAlex > Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, > entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now lethargic, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Alex I'm not sure what entiritis and flu vaccines specifically are, but many cat do feel badly after vaccinations. He should perk up by morning. Watch him and be sure he isn't off his food for more than a day. Our cat had a bad reaction to vaccinations, and the first sign was vomiting almost immediately after we got him home. He, also went off his food and ended up almost dying. If he isn't eating tomorrow and still acts weird, I'd give the vet a call. Sherry > Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, > entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now lethargic, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is this common or should we be worried? Any action we should take? He is > lying on the bed at the moment. What Sherry said, and in the future, know that three shots are a lot for one little kitty. I was worried sick one time after I allowed the vet to give Cheeks her Depo Medrol shot plus two others. She was puny for days, just sleeping, eating little, grumping at me if I petted her, and having a warm nose. > > Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, > > entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > for days, just sleeping, eating little, grumping at me if I petted her, > and having a warm nose. I let the vet give Biskit the entire vax series at once, at the same time she was spayed. It was too much for her. I had reservations about it at the time, but the vet didn't so I caved and let him do it. She was also sick for days. I kicked myself all over for not being assertive and saying NO, I'll bring her back for the vaccs, and we'll space them 3 weeks apart. Next time I will. Sherry > > > Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, > > > entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > assertive and saying NO, I'll bring her back for the vaccs, and we'll > space them 3 weeks apart. Next time I will. I think you were the one who told me you thought Cheeky was feeling bad because of too many shots at once. It is a shame we have to watch our vets like this. I just got a card from Tiger's vet reminding me that he needs shots next month. The rabies shot he needs because the Purevax is only good for one year. The other shots he won't get because they are supposed to be good for three years. Vets make money giving shots so they try to promote yearly shots when they are not needed. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > I just got a card from Tiger's vet reminding me that he needs shots > next month. The rabies shot he needs because the Purevax is only [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ---MIKE--- Well ... you have to UPSELL the customer so that if the cat gets sick later, guilt will animate the owner to spend wads of loot assuaging the guilt. This is the negative side of "pay me a little now or a lot later on". >>> Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for >>> leukaemia, entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Sherry Sherry: I drove past an animal shelter today. Turned around and went back to see what they had in the way of kittens. About half of their inventory were kittens under 12 weeks. The relevant point ... they will not (normally) release any adoption with out a quad combo of shots and sterilization. To me that IS way too much stress all in one sitting. Under penalty of death by hurled watermelons, they would allow me ('cuz cat would be an indoor only) to take an unsterilized cat home for one to two weeks because the two that caught my interest were just under .... ONE and a HALF pounds. Good grief. I found a highly animated gray tabby and a similarly tempered Maine Coon / American shorthair that were turned over by the birth cat's owners. They still have to kept for 7 days for observation before they are saleable. Policy. Damned bureaucrats again. I suppose if you leave cats in a kennel long enough, they WILL catch something. > Sherry: I drove past an animal shelter today. Turned around and went > back to see what they had in the way of kittens. About half of their [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I suppose if you leave cats in a kennel long enough, they WILL catch > something. One and a half pounds is too small to adopt out. And no, we do not adopt any cats/kittens out that have not been spayed/neutered and vaccinated. Although with kittens, if they are under four months they are too young for rabies vacc, the owners have to do that. Yeah, we're all a bunch of bureaucrats, blah blah. Why am I reading this group? Signature-Kelly >> Sherry: I drove past an animal shelter today. Turned around and >> went back to see what they had in the way of kittens. About half of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > are too young for rabies vacc, the owners have to do that. > Yeah, we're all a bunch of bureaucrats, blah blah. They adopt out anything that qualified persons (aka willing to cut a check for $80) are willing to take and are healthy. I've dropper fed kittens as little at 3 weeks old before. But at such a tender age, you can't leave them alone. This is the third shelter I've visited in a month. There are two kinds of cats in shelters. One kind sleeps in its litter box in the cage ... defeated, while the other kind are crying loudly "Get me outta here!" when you walk past. I wish I paid their bail and get them out of kitty jail! > > Sherry > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > release any adoption with out a quad combo of shots and sterilization. To > me that IS way too much stress all in one sitting. I agree it's way too much stress at one sitting. I don't know why they don't do the first kitten shots at 6-8 weeks, then do the spay/neuter at least a week or two later. In our state, it is against state law for an animal shelter to release an un-neutered animal, unless the party puts up a minimum $35 deposit, refundable upon proof of neuter. The seven day's observation is a good thing, not just bureaucratic pencil-pushing. Kittens, esp. ones that have been in a shelter environment, really need to be watched to make sure they're not sick. Coccidia, in particular, is rampant among shelter kittens, as are URI's. Sherry >> Sherry: I drove past an animal shelter today. Turned around and >> went back to see what they had in the way of kittens. About half of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Sherry This is southern California. I did not ask the about governing laws. Is Coccidia present in kittens when they arrive in shelters or is this something they quickly contract from close confinement and captivity these days? > > Sherry > > This is southern California. I did not ask the about governing laws. Is > Coccidia present in kittens when they arrive in shelters or is this > something they quickly contract from close confinement and captivity these > days? Well, both, really. It's a one-cell organism that infects the intestines. Bad, bad, diarrhea, kittens often die from it. They're not born with it, although they can catch it from their mothers as tiny kittens. The deal with shelters is, it will spread like wildfire to any other kitten sharing a litter box. So when a new kitten/litter comes it, it would certainly be prudent for the shelter to watch it, and certainly isolate it from the other cats. Could be that prevalence of it varies by region of the country, but we sure see a lot of it here. Sherry > Well, both, really. It's a one-cell organism that infects the > intestines. Bad, bad, diarrhea, kittens often die from it. They're not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Could be that prevalence of it varies by region of the country, but we > sure see a lot of it here. Our shelter normally has all kittens under 8 weeks old in foster care. Most of the kittens I have fostered had coccidia at one point. It seems to occur in kittens born outside. It's also the state law that we cannot adopt out any kitten under 8 weeks (which those 1 1/2 lb kittens probably would be). It depends on when we get the kitten, but if we've had them prior to 6 weeks old, we do the first vacc at 6 weeks, then s/n when they are 2 lbs. If we get them at 2 lbs/ 8 weeks, we do everything that same day. It is a lot in one day, and in an ideal world I wouldn't want to do that. But, at the shelter we are limited on space, and if we spaced out the vacc and s/n on every cat/kitten by a week, we would be holding a lot of cats that could have been adopted, and not been able to bring in new ones. The state's spay/neuter policy here is that either a) every cat go out s/n, or b) we provide the adopter with a certificate from the state they can use to get the cat s/n. We used to use the certificates, but it was a big giant PITA. People still wouldn't do it, even though they had a cert. for FREE s/n. Then we would get a call 6 months later saying "Your cat just had kittens." Signature-Kelly > The state's spay/neuter policy here is that either a) every cat go out s/n, > or b) we provide the adopter with a certificate from the state they can use [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > -Kelly I HEAR you, girlfriend. BDTD. Hated it. It took a full-time volunteer position just to do call-backs on the spay/neuter deposit certificates and pester people to get it done. Then there were those that would move, and you couldn't track them down. Sherry >> Well, both, really. It's a one-cell organism that infects the >> intestines. Bad, bad, diarrhea, kittens often die from it. They're [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > it, even though they had a cert. for FREE s/n. Then we would get a > call 6 months later saying "Your cat just had kittens." The S/N Certificate was mentioned, hastily. Since the kittens I was considering were males, this too may have influenced the shelter worker to 'okay' to me taking one home with shots now, and to return in a couple of weeks for neutering. Is it my imagination or are vaccinateable cat diseases more virulent compared to 20 yrs ago? What is this "Your cat just had kittens" bit? In your state, is a shelter cat still some kind of "property" or "ward" of the State after the buyer takes possession of the animal? > The S/N Certificate was mentioned, hastily. Since the kittens I was > considering were males, this too may have influenced the shelter worker to > 'okay' to me taking one home with shots now, and to return in a couple of > weeks for neutering. The shelter person doesn't know you from a hole in the ground, so why should she break policy just for you and let the kittens go home with you? How does she know you will bring the kittens back for neuter? As I mentioned a couple times, 1 1/2 lb is too small to adopt out. > Is it my imagination or are vaccinateable cat diseases more virulent > compared to 20 yrs ago? Not that I know of. I know a lot of people on here are anti-vaccine, but having seen a cat die from distemper, and one nearly die, I feel strongly about getting vaccines. Also, if a cat does not have a rabies vacc and bites someone, the bitee can request that the cat be euthanized. However, I do not believe in over-vacc and getting too many boosters. > What is this "Your cat just had kittens" bit? In your state, is a > shelter cat still some kind of "property" or "ward" of the State after the > buyer takes possession of the animal? No, it's just people being stupid. The cat is always great until there is a problem. -Kelly >> The S/N Certificate was mentioned, hastily. Since the kittens I was >> considering were males, this too may have influenced the shelter [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > should she break policy just for you and let the kittens go home with > you? Because in fact, she DOES know me. The hole in the ground is the proper place for your bitchy snipe. > How does she know you will bring the kittens back for neuter? There is a refundable deposit involved. > As I mentioned a couple times, 1 1/2 lb is too small to adopt out. Not every shelter abides by your rules. Pound and a half is the low threshold for adopting out at that shelter, Kelly. >> Is it my imagination or are vaccinateable cat diseases more virulent >> compared to 20 yrs ago? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > euthanized. However, I do not believe in over-vacc and getting too > many boosters. What people request does not automatically mean a done deal. Just like anybody can sue you ... but that does not mean they will win. >> What is this "Your cat just had kittens" bit? In your state, is a >> shelter cat still some kind of "property" or "ward" of the State [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -Kelly Well Kelly ... that IS your "customer." Maybe you should offer an optional health maintenance insureance plan/policy. Or you might sell your cats on an "As Is" basis just like used cars are sold. > Because in fact, she DOES know me. The hole in the ground is the proper > place for your bitchy snipe. How do I know that? > Not every shelter abides by your rules. Pound and a half is the low > threshold for adopting out at that shelter, Kelly. IMHO, it's too small. > Well Kelly ... that IS your "customer." Maybe you should offer an > optional health maintenance insureance plan/policy. Or you might sell > your cats on an "As Is" basis just like used cars are sold. We do. Listed on the adoption agreement are any known health issues, as well as a statement that any future health issues are the new owner's responsibility. Signature-Kelly >> Because in fact, she DOES know me. The hole in the ground is the >> proper place for your bitchy snipe. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > as well as a statement that any future health issues are the new > owner's responsibility. The statement of health is great. Sorta like buying a house. The seller discloses all known structural deficiencies and liens on paper. Gee ... there's one for ya ... Kitty Escrow. I'm really against agreeing to let some snoop from your organization repossess my animal in the future for not living up to subjective contract clauses. You sold ... I bought. You relinquish all rights and privileges. "Adoption" means the adopting party(s) *can* prohibit the form custodians from EVER visiting the animal again. Would you agree to that stipulation? > The statement of health is great. Sorta like buying a house. The seller > discloses all known structural deficiencies and liens on paper. Gee ... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > party(s) *can* prohibit the form custodians from EVER visiting the animal > again. Would you agree to that stipulation? I'm glad you are on the other coast so I don't have to deal with you at my shelter. Signature-Kelly >> The statement of health is great. Sorta like buying a house. The >> seller discloses all known structural deficiencies and liens on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm glad you are on the other coast so I don't have to deal with you > at my shelter. Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom is the sweetest thing. I'd put an article in your local paper about such WILD invasions of privacy starting with that adoption application. Might even take it a step further. I have no doubt that you would not want a pissed off senior citizen on your butt. > Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom is the > sweetest thing. I'd put an article in your local paper about such WILD > invasions of privacy starting with that adoption application. Might even > take it a step further. I have no doubt that you would not want a pissed > off senior citizen on your butt. Ooooh, I'm shaking. Yeah, we really invade people's privacy by asking them to provide food, water, shelter, and proper vet care for a cat or dog. On the application we ask who your vet is, if you rent or own, if you do rent, you need a landlord letter stating it's OK to have a pet. That's real out there. And, wow, call the ACLU, we do a follow-up phone call or two to check on the animal! We ask in the contract that if they cannot keep the cat/dog for any reason, that they return it to us. I'm sorry, but if you can't agree to that, there's something wrong. You are not getting an animal from us. Find an animal shelter that does not ask these questions and does not ask you in it's adoption agreement to properly care for the animal. Then get back to me. -Kelly >> Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom is >> the sweetest thing. I'd put an article in your local paper about [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > they return it to us. I'm sorry, but if you can't agree to that, > there's something wrong. See the response I posted to Sherry. > You are not getting an animal from us. > Find an animal shelter that does not ask these questions and does not > ask you in it's adoption agreement to properly care for the animal. Then > get back to me. > > -Kelly Already have. Two County shelters ask only that if the "adoption" does not work out satisfactoryly that you use their relocation services. That is not unreasonable. But there are no veiled threats of legal actions short of outright animal cruelty for which there is establish law. Now ... I posted a question to Sherry which she failed to address so I'll ask it of you: Tell me what points in your adoption "contract" actually overlap (mirror) State law? What points in your adoption "contracts" go outside and beyond State law? > >> Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom is > >> the sweetest thing. I'd put an article in your local paper about [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > What points in your adoption "contracts" go outside and beyond State law? I didn't ignore your question; it was just such a dumbass thing to ask I didn't think you seriously expected an answer. Are you suggesting the "adoption contract" is in violation of state law? What? I don't get the question. We are NOT a government agency, and besides, there are no laws pertaining to adoption contract stipulations per se; there are laws prohibiting us to adopt whole animals without collecting spay/neuter deposits, laws that govern euthanasia practices for shelters, laws that specifically prohibit abuse/neglect, blah blah blah. Sherry >>>> Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom >>>> is [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > I didn't ignore your question; it was just such a dumbass thing to ask > I didn't think you seriously expected an answer. Possibly because you are intent on doing my thinking for me. Get out of my head. > Are you suggesting the "adoption contract" is in violation of state > law? What? I don't get the question. The question I posed was succint and with clarity. Basically, I asked you to identify where your adoption / screening policy is in accordance with State law and also where your adoption / screening requirements go beyond State law. > We are NOT a government agency, and besides, there are no laws > pertaining to adoption contract stipulations per se; I infer this to mean that as a private organization recieving no government funding that you are exercising your unfettered powers to ask invasive questions. You are exercising descrimination at a level that probably precludes many worthy households. Fine. What's the average length of time a rescue cat stays in your confines? A year? > there are laws > prohibiting us to adopt whole animals without collecting spay/neuter > deposits, laws that govern euthanasia practices for shelters, laws > that specifically prohibit abuse/neglect, blah blah blah. > > Sherry No "blah blah blah." You have barely addressed one of the two questions I posed. Now ... what other qualifications to you put on applicants that go beyond the State laws and what is the spirit of those additional qualifiers? > >>>> Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom > >>>> is [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > law and also where your adoption / screening requirements go beyond State > law. Umm... they don't go beyond state law. Period. I'm very sorry that you had such a bad experience with shelter screening. Obviously, from the way you react, they must have put you in the witness chair, dangled a naked light bulb over your head and asked you personal questions which you were forced to answer under duress. So I don't really know what you're talking about. We ask a few questions about prior pet ownership, ask for a landlord and vet reference, ask the ages of children in the home. Then the contractual agreement that you'll actually feed and take care of the animal. Last I checked, it wasn't against the law to ask questions of any potential adoptor, and also, the last I checked, you don't have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to obtain a pet from any shelter. Sherry > Umm... they don't go beyond state law. Period. > I'm very sorry that you had such a bad experience with shelter > screening. Obviously, from the way you react, they must have put you in > the witness chair, dangled a naked light bulb over your head and asked > you personal questions which you were forced to answer under duress. Or .... he is just a dickhead. Hmm, I wonder which one it is .... >>>>>> Challenging little people with a little power in a little fiefdom >>>>>> is [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Sherry Are you being dense for a reason? My "difficulty" with the private adoption organization concerns their HIGHLY invasive and counter productive screeing questionaire. Secondly, my "difficulty" with County shelter is their sterilization guidelines. The half way ground at least, was the refundable deposit charged as an inducement to return the little kitten for sterilizatoin when it reaches a certain age and weight threshold. Sherry, your closing sentence reveals you're getting really full of yourself. You are not a lawyer and you are a mediocre listener. I have no "right" to an animal in your custody is true. You can kill all of them and in fact do kill most of them. Is that not true? That is how you slow the population growth. Take cats out of circulation or sterilize them. The adoption activity is a secondary function that you'd probably rather not be bothered with. Wouldn't Animal Control (the functional name for "shelter" or "pound") be easier if you just picked up strays, ferals, and unwanteds and fried them in 24 hrs? > Are you being dense for a reason? My "difficulty" with the private adoption > organization concerns their HIGHLY invasive and counter productive screeing > questionaire. Secondly, my "difficulty" with County shelter is their > sterilization guidelines. Bingo. You just said it. It's "your" difficulty. YOU have a problem with it. So, get a cat elsewhere. > Sherry, your closing sentence reveals you're getting really full of > yourself. Not really. I just know what I'm talking about, and I know how shelters work. You don't, obviously. You are not a lawyer and you are a mediocre listener. I have no > "right" to an animal in your custody is true. You can kill all of them and > in fact do kill most of them. Is that not true? No, actually we don't. Unless the animal is aggressive or ill. That is how you slow the > population growth. No, everybody with half a brain knows it's already been proven that euthanasia is not the answer. The answer lies in spay/neuter education. We have earmarked funds for our "Please Don't Litter" campaign for very low-cost spay/neuter for the public. I'm also VERY happy to say we just received a $15,000 grant from the Bob Barker Foundation for spay/neuter for low-income families. It was like Christmas, getting that check. Take cats out of circulation or sterilize them. The > adoption activity is a secondary function that you'd probably rather not be > bothered with. Err.. you just said in this very thread that we "sell" cats as a source of revenue. Make up your mind. Wouldn't Animal Control (the functional name for "shelter" > or "pound") be easier if you just picked up strays, ferals, and unwanteds > and fried them in 24 hrs? Animal Control is a municipal entity, completely separate from our Humane Society. They actually fry them within 72 hours. We go there and they allow us to take the most adoptable animals. We take as many as we possibly have space for, but unfortunately we can't take them all. Thanks for your interest, Sherry >> Are you being dense for a reason? My "difficulty" with the private >> adoption organization concerns their HIGHLY invasive and counter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bingo. You just said it. It's "your" difficulty. YOU have a problem > with it. So, get a cat elsewhere. Oh lay off. Any unreasonable adoption hurtles means more days the cat goes without placement. I'm looking at the weekend paper here and there are about 16 kitten listings priced at under $40 WITH shots and without sterilization. You've got competition! >> Sherry, your closing sentence reveals you're getting really full of >> yourself. > > Not really. snip Yes, really. > You are not a lawyer and you are a mediocre listener. I have no >> "right" to an animal in your custody is true. You can kill all of >> them and in fact do kill most of them. Is that not true? > > No, actually we don't. Unless the animal is aggressive or ill. So the shelter you are in is a "low kill" facility. >> That is how you slow the population growth (kill or sterilize) > > No, everybody with half a brain knows it's already been proven that > euthanasia is not the answer. The answer lies in spay/neuter > education. People with a whole brain know the only way you can stem or slow the cat population is to kill, sterilize, or quarantine for life. Education is only a means to those ends. snip >> Take cats out of circulation or sterilize them. The >> adoption activity is a secondary function that you'd probably rather >> not be bothered with. > > Err.. you just said in this very thread that we "sell" cats as a > source of revenue. Make up your mind. You do have some pebbles between your ears. You need to rely less on memory and more on what was posted, verbatim. I never used "sell" and "revenue" in the same context. > Wouldn't Animal Control (the functional name for "shelter" >> or "pound") be easier if you just picked up strays, ferals, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sherry I was being descriptive about your spay / neuter policy being Animal Control ... which *is* accurate. > >> Are you being dense for a reason? My "difficulty" with the private > >> adoption organization concerns their HIGHLY invasive and counter [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 16 kitten listings priced at under $40 WITH shots and without sterilization. > You've got competition! This is one (of many ) points you don't understand. We not in the business of finding any loser to take animals off our hands. Anyone can do that. We could sit in front of Wal-Mart with a cardboard box full of un-neutered, un-vaccinated kittens for free, and they'd be gone in an hour. We are in the business of *animal welfare*. Reducing the number of unwanted, abandoned, and surplus animals through public education and making spay/neuter available to everyone. Adopting out un-neutered cats is a bit counter-productive to that mission statement, don't you think? We have a responsibility to find *good* homes. Not just homes. That's your problem, Phillip. You seem to think a shelter is a place that simply warehouses animals, and should be eternally grateful to the first slob who comes in to take one off our hands. > > Animal Control is a municipal entity, completely separate from our > > Humane Society. They actually fry them within 72 hours. We go there > > and they allow us to take the most adoptable animals. We take as > > many as we possibly have space for, but unfortunately we can't take > > them all. > I was being descriptive about your spay / neuter policy being Animal Control > ... which *is* accurate. No, animal control is not the functional name for "shelter". THAT is the functional name for the municipal entity that captures loose dogs in a city, enforces "animal at large" statutes, etc., enforces rabies vaccination laws, etc. We don't do any of that. We provide a safe haven for animals until adoptive homes can be found. You really should learn more about sheltering. Animal adoption is just part of it. Sherry >>>> Are you being dense for a reason? My "difficulty" with the private >>>> adoption organization concerns their HIGHLY invasive and counter [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Adopting out un-neutered cats is a bit counter-productive to that > mission statement, don't you think? By the same token, your stated assumption that everybody who comes to you IS a "loser" or abuser does not serve the cause well either. > We have a responsibility to find *good* homes. Not just homes. > That's your problem, Phillip. You seem to think a shelter is a place > that simply warehouses animals, and should be eternally grateful to > the first slob who comes in to take one off our hands. Not eternally, just long enough to see me out the door with an animal of my choosing. :^) And speaking of slobs, I have yet to see any shelter employees/voluteers wearing business attire. ;^) >> I was being descriptive about your spay / neuter policy being Animal >> Control ... which *is* accurate. > > No, animal control is not the functional name for "shelter". snip >Sherry Your big picture mission by virtue of the religious mantra of sterilization IS animal control ... precisely, population control. I'm not making a judement here, just an observation. > Already have. Two County shelters ask only that if the "adoption" does > not work out satisfactoryly that you use their relocation services. That > is not unreasonable. But there are no veiled threats of legal actions > short of outright animal cruelty for which there is establish law. That's all ours does. I never said we come invade your home. All we do is make a phone call to check up on the cat. It possibly turns into a few phone calls if the new adopter is having some difficulty. I've never had anyone NOT turn a cat back in when it is no longer wanted. I suppose if we suspected abuse, we would contact the proper authorities, and they would take it from there. I haven't had this happen in the time I've been with the shelter. > Tell me what points in your adoption "contract" actually overlap (mirror) > State law? I guess the part where we state that the adopter provide adequate food, water, shelter, vet care for the cat. That goes along with state laws for proper care of animals. If they did not do these things, it would be abuse or neglect. > What points in your adoption "contracts" go outside and beyond State law? None that I know of. I'm not sure what your problem is with the way we handle adoptions. Signature-Kelly >> Already have. Two County shelters ask only that if the "adoption" >> does not work out satisfactoryly that you use their relocation [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I'm not sure what your problem is with the way we handle adoptions. Seeing as I have at least two people I'm corresponding with on this thread, the one(s) I'm most at odds with is/are the private pet adoption person(s). For a County animal shelter, I still have a strong reservations about the rigid castration / hysterectomy rules. A shelter is MOST concerned about a cat in there possession not EVER reproducing again. The shelter ensures this by (a) killing the animal, (b) not selling the animal until it is sterilized, (c) requiring a refundable deposit sufficient to get the buyer to return the animal for sterilization if the shelter does relinquish an animal. The happy medium is to not sell the animal until it can undergo castration / hysterectomy. A shelter is NOT concerned about any problems later on that can be attributed to premature castration or hysterectomy. As the new owner, I AM concerned about the fallout because that impacts my wallet. > For a County animal shelter, I still have a strong reservations about the > rigid castration / hysterectomy rules. A shelter is MOST concerned about a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > As the new owner, I AM concerned about the fallout because that impacts my > wallet. As far as the shelter I'm with goes, you'll have to take that up with the state of New Hampshire. The STATE mandates that all cats and dogs (not sure about other animals) that are adopted from animal shelters are either a) spayed/neutered or b) we provide the adopter with a certificate from the state for s/n. As stated in a previous post, the cert method was a big PITA and did not work in our experience. We opted to s/n every cat and dog ourselves before adopting out. We can argue round and round about early s/n, BTDT. IMO, it works and does not cause any ill effects to the cat. Also, NH has one of the lowest euthanasia rates in the US. I think the reason is because of the mandate that all adopted cats and dogs be s/n. NH also has a low-income program for people to get their pet s/n through the state. Signature-Kelly >> For a County animal shelter, I still have a strong reservations >> about the rigid castration / hysterectomy rules. A shelter is MOST [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > shelters are either a) spayed/neutered *or* b) we provide the adopter > with a certificate from the state for s/n. So in your state of NH, I could purchase an intack kitten and keep it that way until I felt the time appropriate to bring it back in for sterlization? That would be acceptable to me. > As stated in a previous > post, the cert method was a big PITA and did not work in our > experience. We opted to s/n every cat and dog ourselves before > adopting out. So I am to understand that your particular shelter chose to invoke your only local policy. Is that correct? > We can argue round and round about early s/n, BTDT. IMO, it works > and does not cause any ill effects to the cat. Such is not my experience. Some breeds are already at risk for urinary difficulties throughtout life due to genetics. There need to be exceptions for this and for the more observant owner. >Also, NH has one of > the lowest euthanasia rates in the US. I think the reason is because > of the mandate that all adopted cats and dogs be s/n. NH also has a > low-income program for people to get their pet s/n through the state. I think it is because NH is hardly the size of a postage stamp compared to several neighboring states. Furthermore, figures don't lie but liars figure. I'm sure NH is not unique with their state funded sterilization program. > The S/N Certificate was mentioned, hastily. Since the kittens I was > considering were males, this too may have influenced the shelter worker to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "property" or "ward" of the State after the buyer takes possession of the > animal? Kelly's right, some people are just stupid. But technically, the shelter *could* repossess the cat, if they were so inclined to go to court over it. Every adoptor signs a contract re: spay/neuter, basic humane care, some say "no declaw." If the adoptor fails to honor the contract, ownership of the animal reverts back to the shelter. In my experience, though, this has never happened. Mostly they just surrender them. I suppose if one doesn't care enough about an animal to spend money on it, they SURE aren't going to spend money on lawyer fees to keep it. Sherry >> The S/N Certificate was mentioned, hastily. Since the kittens I was >> considering were males, this too may have influenced the shelter [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry On what legal basis could a shelter "repossess" a cat they sold outright? It's not like you are making payments. Probably just wishful thinking on your part. I have read three private adoption agency "contracts" and decided I would NEVER EVER sign such a document. What you are suggesting is reminiscent of software licensing. It is now and will forever remain OUR software. We are only licensing you to use it and ensure that it does not get copied or misused. What rubbish. > On what legal basis could a shelter "repossess" a cat they sold outright? > It's not like you are making payments. Probably just wishful thinking on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > software. We are only licensing you to use it and ensure that it does not > get copied or misused. What rubbish. If you want an animal from us, you sign a contract. You sign a contract stating you will provide food, water, shelter, and basic veterinary care for the life of the animal. You state that you will not abandon or neglect the animal. That you will spay/or neuter the animal, if it isn't already done. You state that you will not give away or dump, or sell, the animal--if you no longer want it, it must be returned to us. This is like any other contract--it CAN be upheld in a court of law. If you don't want to sign the contract, you don't get the pet. I ralize it sounds screwy to you--but there is a purpose. For example, it was reported back to us that one of our dogs was in a back yard, on a short, tangled chain, in 100 degree heat with no water. It was unable to reach any shade or shelter. The contract simply made it easier for us to get the animal back. BUT, believe you me, we could have gotten it anyway, whether the animal was adopted from us or not. Sherry >> On what legal basis could a shelter "repossess" a cat they sold >> outright? It's not like you are making payments. Probably just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If you want an animal from us, you sign a contract. I don't want an animal from your shelter/organization with strings attached. > You sign a contract stating you will provide food, water, shelter, and > basic veterinary care for the life of the animal. You state that you will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > This is like any other contract--it CAN be upheld in a court of law. Ah... another source of income for your socialist mob is taking people to court, hoping for penalty judgements. The Pet Mafia. So pets are little whores whose owners you HOPE will default so you can get more money via the courts (law suits). This became quite obvious to me and now you have confirmed it. > If you don't want to sign the contract, you don't get the pet. > I ralize it sounds screwy to you--but there is a purpose. The stated purpose sounds soooooooooooo humanitarian and for the good of little fluff balls everywhere. The scam your organization conducts needs to be "checked." > For example, > it was reported back to us that one of our dogs was in a back yard, on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sherry Tell me Sherry, what points in your adoption "contract" actually over lap (mirror) State law? What points in your adoption "contracts" go outside and beyond State law? I have an adoption application form here in front of me that inquires about our household income, number of rooms in our home, request for the name & phone of our current vet, number of cars in our possession, would we permit a home inspection by one of the adoption workers before adopting, and a few other things that are waaaaaaaaay beyond the pail of caring for an indoor cat. Because of these outrageous inquiries into our private lives, I am warming up to buying a kitten from a private party, without shots, without sterilization ... and then have those services performed at periods appropriate to the cat's development ... rather than at the arbitrary decree of your people and the government. > >> On what legal basis could a shelter "repossess" a cat they sold > >> outright? It's not like you are making payments. Probably just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > If you want an animal from us, you sign a contract. > I don't want an animal from your shelter/organization with strings attached. That's good. Because if you consider promising to feed, shelter, and not abuse an animal "strings" that you cannot live by, we wouldn't adopt to you anyway. Sherry > > You sign a contract stating you will provide food, water, shelter, and > > basic veterinary care for the life of the animal. You state that you will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ah... another source of income for your socialist mob is taking people to > court, hoping for penalty judgements. No. We don't ask for penalty judgments. Moot point, because we've never had to go to court anyway. Most people, when the situations gets as far as mentioning litigation, are kind of like you. They don't care enough about the animal to take basic care of it, so they're certainly not going to spend money to keep it. > > If you don't want to sign the contract, you don't get the pet. > > I ralize it sounds screwy to you--but there is a purpose. > > The stated purpose sounds soooooooooooo humanitarian and for the good of > little fluff balls everywhere. The scam your organization conducts needs to > be "checked." Phillip, I am sorely disappointed in you. I knew you were an old fart who only considers animals as chattel--like a lot of old farts your age. But I never thought you'd condone abuse and neglect. Pity. Sherry >>>> On what legal basis could a shelter "repossess" a cat they sold >>>> outright? It's not like you are making payments. Probably just [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Sherry Oh STUFF IT, Sherry. Your position is that of Omnipotent Big Sister. The big picture issue is that your organization's experience is in dealing with dead beats. That's what the presence of your organization's policies and contracts state loud and clear by their very existance. No animal in your hoarding houses is worth trading my privacy for. >>> You sign a contract stating you will provide food, water, shelter, >>> and basic veterinary care for the life of the animal. You state [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to > spend money to keep it. NOW I have caught you FABRICATING "facts" not in evidence. You know nothing independent of what I have stated on this forum. And you have made conjecture with "Most people .... are kind of like you." You have decided that lying about me is warranted to protect your agenda. Just look at the preceding paragraph. You are a liar. >> The stated purpose sounds soooooooooooo humanitarian and for the >> good of little fluff balls everywhere. The scam your organization [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry Sherry ... now that you've descended to personal remarks, it is evident your thoughtful contributions have been exhausted. Condescension is all you have left to ply. Pity. Refusing to agree to your organizations "terms" does NOT constitute "neglect." > Oh STUFF IT, Sherry. Your position is that of Omnipotent Big Sister. The > big picture issue is that your organization's experience is in dealing with > dead beats. That's what the presence of your organization's policies and > contracts state loud and clear by their very existance. No animal in your > hoarding houses is worth trading my privacy for. Ummm. I didn't say anything about personal questions. I mentioned a contractual agreement not to abuse or neglect an animal as requirement for adoption. You, for some reason, take mighty exception to that. Sherry >> Oh STUFF IT, Sherry. Your position is that of Omnipotent Big >> Sister. The big picture issue is that your organization's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sherry You have a screening process. And if that screeing process precludes our home and long experience with cat pets, then you have a blatantly political and obstructionist screening process. I DO take mighty exception to your recourse should you come spying on my family. That you are SELLING these animals at a price prohibitive to casual and/or irresponsible people is sufficient screen. If nothing else, I know of no one who would pay $100 or more just to get a cat to deliberately abuse. But then again ... your screening process suggests YOUR customers may be just such people. > > Sherry > > You have a screening process. And if that screeing process precludes our > home and long experience with cat pets, then you have a blatantly political > and obstructionist screening process. I DO take mighty exception to your > recourse should you come spying on my family. That you are SELLING these > animals at a price prohibitive to casual and/or irresponsible people is > sufficient screen. If nothing else, I know of no one who would pay $100 or > more just to get a cat to deliberately abuse. But then again ... your > screening process suggests YOUR customers may be just such people. Not really. But neglect is far more prevalent than deliberate abuse. It isn't shelter-specific either, just as many people spend hundreds of dollars buying animals from breeders on impulse, then learn they don't want to spend the time, or money, on upkeep and maintenance of the animal as soon as the "new" wears off. Again, I'm sure the shelter people in your area would really prefer you *did* take your business elsewhere. There is no shortage of kittens or cats. I'm sure you can find one. Knock yourself out. Sherry Sherry > Not really. But neglect is far more prevalent than deliberate abuse. > It isn't shelter-specific either, just as many people spend hundreds of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > *did* take your business elsewhere. There is no shortage of kittens or > cats. I'm sure you can find one. Knock yourself out. Exactly. The price of the animal doesn't matter. If you read the thread I started a while back on Persians, that's just one example. People pay several hundred dollars for these cats, and then can't manage to take care of them. Hell, people pay ten of thousands of dollars for horses and neglect them. We do the best we can in screening people. Yes, that means assuming everyone is an a.shole, but it's what you gotta do. Even then, some people slip by. Signature-Kelly SNIP > We do the best we can in screening people. Yes, that means assuming > everyone is an a.shole, but it's what you gotta do. Even then, some > people slip by. A moment of clarity has arrived. You industry people have a proctologist's view of pet ownership because ONLY the problems ... the failures ... end up on your desk. Witness: "Yes, that means assuming everyone is an a.shole, but it's what you gotta do." Kelly, you get to go home early. > A moment of clarity has arrived. You industry people have a > proctologist's view of pet ownership because ONLY the problems ... the > failures ... end up on your desk. Witness: Sure, it's true. I spend my time cleaning up other people's messes. I HAVE to assume the worst so I don't let the cats down. BTW, our average length of stay for adult cats is 23.5 days. Longer than I would like it to be, but I mostly contribute that to being all-volunteer and only having two adoption days a week. We really don't turn away that many people to affect the length of stay. Signature-Kelly >>> Sherry >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > want to spend the time, or money, on upkeep and maintenance of the > animal as soon as the "new" wears off. snipped Sherry's cheap lttle swipe > Sherry Sherry ... what is your job? Not the title ... rather what are the pet peeves you bring to your job? Your personal agendas regarding cats. It is fairly common but if does not perk up by tomorrow (or other severe symptoms go earlier), take kitty in. Sometimes they need hydration. Most of the time they are normal within 24 hours. > Our 3 year old has had his triple vaccination this morning for leukaemia, > entiritis and flu - and after being fine on returning home is now lethargic, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is this common or should we be worried? Any action we should take? He is > lying on the bed at the moment. |
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