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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2005Peeing on couch - time to lock him up?
Hey all- I've read here a suggestion to stop cats from peeing in inappropriate places is to lock them in a small room with a litterbox to retrain them. I'm thinking this is what I have to do, but I wanted to know whether I should put his kitty friend in there with him. She's not exhibited any marking or spraying behaviors. Here's the background. My big neutered male cat occassionally pees on the couch downstairs. It all started about two years ago. We had a rubber mat outside the litterbox, which would get covered in litter. He would occasionally pee on the mat. Not a real big mistake in my book, but my wife got the bright idea to spray that mat with a deterrent. Well, it took me a while to figure out what was happening, but my cat started peeing on the couch (not spraying, though we've never seen him, just based on the amount of pee). We took him to the vet and had him checked out, and everything was fine. After I discovered the litterbox goof-up, I replaced the litterbox and removed the mat, thoroughly cleaned the area where the litterbox (a small bathroom in the basement) was and locked him in there with the litterbox for a week for the retraining. Meanwhile we got rid of the couch and replaced it with a new one (and put plastic over it just in case). Since then, it's probably happened on average once every month or two that the new couch has been peed on. To cleanup we take the slipcover off, clean the plastic, wash the slipcover, put it back, and use an enzymatic cleaner. We put up cardboard over the basement windows in case the neighbor tomcat was bothering him. We also put a bowl of food on the couch. There was probably a six month period without any problem at all. He has a little girl kitty as a housemate. Like I said before, the vet checked him out fine (I know they drew some urine from his bladder and tested it), so while I'm not ruling out a health problem, it's not the primary suspect at this point. I _think_ that's all the pertinent background information. It's not really a HUGE problem, having to clean up the couch once a month or so, but I'm sure we'll all be happier if we can take care of this problem. Thanks, Korey > Hey all- > > I've read here a suggestion to stop cats from peeing in inappropriate > places is to lock them in a small room with a litterbox to retrain > Thanks, > Korey I doubt he needs re-trained, but this probably works cause he hates the lockdown..lol maybe he is spoiled about the litter box - you know, leave one crumb out and watchout > > Hey all- > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I doubt he needs re-trained, but this probably works cause he hates the > lockdown..lol Incorrect elimination (peeing) will never be cured by a punishment regime (which the lockdown resembles to me), it will just cause more stress which could be the initial problem. How old is this cat? Older animals don't have the muscle control so if the couch is some way away from the litterbox he might not make it in time. I would agree with one or more additional litterboxes around the house. > > > Hey all- > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (which the lockdown resembles to me), it will just cause more stress which > could be the initial problem. It isn't a punishment, it really is just to get them back in the *habit* of peeing where they are supposed to. It works with some, too. They are creatures of habit. >>> Hey all- >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > in time. I would agree with one or more additional litterboxes > around the house. Yeah well .... let's make the whole house one large litter box. SICK cats lose bladder control, forget *old*. Before you isolate your cat, try adding a second litterbox and put it on the first floor of your home. Also read http://community.webtv.net/getcathelp/litterbox Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Thanks all for the advice. Here are some more details about the situation. We have essentially a two floor house. On the lower level is a small bathroom with a litter box and a family room with a litter box. This family room is where the couch is located, less than 20 ft from the litter box. My buddy is about 6 years old and in good health (despite being chubby) and active. The elimination problems have ONLY occurred downstairs, though we spend all our time upstairs, and the cats like to lounge around in whatever room we're in. So, I don't think it's a matter of being lazy or too slow, as the problems would then happen upstairs. I don't want to isolate him (that was very hard last time, but worked pretty well). I'll look into the "Cat Attract", but I'm also afraid of upsetting him by changing the litter, so perhaps I'll get another box and try it additionally. Here's the stupid question of the day- how big is a cat's bladder? I know before he use to completely soak the old couch, clearly emptying his bladder. On the new couch, it seems like a lot of urine, but the slipcover is different material. I've never caught him in the act, so I guess, now that I think of it, I don't really know for sure which behavior we're trying to solve. > Thanks all for the advice. Here are some more details about the > situation. We have essentially a two floor house. On the lower level [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I guess, now that I think of it, I don't really know for sure which > behavior we're trying to solve. Like people, cat's bladder size varies. Some can hold it longer than others. Of my eight, one can hold it all day long, then when she goes, there's a *softball* size clump in the litterbox. Some of the others goe several times during the day, only leaving golfball sized clumps. One of them loves to 'spray' the back of the litterbox so it runs down and the litter sticks to the back of the box. when he goes, he (yes, he's been neutered since about 3.5 months of age, and he'll be 2 this August) *really* goes, sounds like he's let loose with a firehose in there. All of our litterboxes are the 'hooded' kind, too, or we'd be cleaning cat-pee from all the walls, and since 5 of the 8 are diggers, we'd have litter all over the house :D. SignatureThe ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)© email me at nalee1964 (at) insightbb (dot) com http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep > One of > them loves to 'spray' the back of the litterbox so it runs down and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the walls, and since 5 of the 8 are diggers, we'd have litter all over the > house :D. Yet another reason I am glad I have girl cats! Though I do want one of those big orange boys one day. That's what we have- he's a big orange sweety. He's 17+ lbs and when we stretches out he can reach 4 inches higher than the kitchen counter. Scared me to death the first time he tapped me on my shoulder when I was sitting in a chair! > That's what we have- he's a big orange sweety. He's 17+ lbs and when > we stretches out he can reach 4 inches higher than the kitchen counter. > Scared me to death the first time he tapped me on my shoulder when I > was sitting in a chair! Aha, now this time I know you are replying to me because I posted re a big orange boy. He sounds like a really big boy! > > That's what we have- he's a big orange sweety. He's 17+ lbs and when > > we stretches out he can reach 4 inches higher than the kitchen counter. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Aha, now this time I know you are replying to me because I posted re > a big orange boy. He sounds like a really big boy! big orange cat uh, I've seen them on tv too they have monster heads > > > That's what we have- he's a big orange sweety. He's 17+ lbs and > when [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > big orange cat uh, I've seen them on tv too > they have monster heads They are usually really sweet and laid back! I have never had a boy cat. hello well we have one of those 16lb orange sweeties. I was there when he was #1 out of momma. (she was a knocked up busy stray when we found her) in the same litter of 5 was a miniature of him, 2 white kittens and an oriental. we only kept him and the oriental being they were very close together. at 6 months we had the boys fixed. now at 1 year the orange giant has decided to go to our grown sons bed and leave large tootsie rolls:>). being he uses his litter box too,i am of the thought this is spite work. neither of our indoor cats have ever been hit for any reason so does anyone have thoughts on this matter? barry On Fri 20 May 2005 01:20:57p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:28096-428E1C79-284@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net): > hello > well we have one of those 16lb orange sweeties. I was there [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > anyone have thoughts on this matter? > barry Does your grown son live there? If he moved out, keep the door shut. Your big orange giant is trying to tell you something. :) SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > One of > them loves to 'spray' the back of the litterbox so it runs down and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the walls, and since 5 of the 8 are diggers, we'd have litter all over the > house :D. Oh, man, just like mine! Jeffrey sprays the back sometimes, and they all dig like crazy. Hooded boxes are SO my friend. / and I have the super-duper sized boxes even my dog can fit in... // why yes, I *did* find that out the hard way Signature-- ~kaeli~ "Working in any industry tends to give one a proctologist's view." http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Thanks all for the advice. Here are some more details about the > situation. We have essentially a two floor house. On the lower level [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I guess, now that I think of it, I don't really know for sure which > behavior we're trying to solve. Are either of the downstairs boxes in places where the cat would feel cornered, or conversely, too exposed, such as in a high-traffic place? Thanks, but I really don't think so. Downstairs is a warm finished space, and the only time anyone goes down there is to do laundry. 99 out of 100 times he uses the provided litter boxes, so I'm somewhat stumped. One litterbox is in the relatively secluded bathroom, and the other is in the corner of the family room. Well, maybe he's doing this at night - does he need a nightlight, or is a cat's night vision really as good as I've been told it is? :) Korey > Thanks, but I really don't think so. Downstairs is a warm finished > space, and the only time anyone goes down there is to do laundry. 99 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at night - does he need a nightlight, or is a cat's night vision really > as good as I've been told it is? :) Were you replying to my post, Korey? You did not include a snippet so I cannot tell. If you are, then no, it does not sound like a two-exposed or confined spot for the box is the problem. What kind of scent might be on the couch? Another pet's, or a cleaning fluid that might smell like ammonia? Another good question is, who sits in that spot a lot, or, what human might that spot on the couch smell like? I have read that cats who eliminate on the bed or laundry or regular chair of a certain person are trying to send that particular person a message. Yes, I was replying to your post Mary - I'm using google, and it doesn't allow quoting, at least not using the method of replying I've found. Doesn't your news reader using a thread-type view? Maybe my cat hates people from Taiwan. When we got the new couch (actually just a cheapo futon from Walmart), he peed on it before anyone had spent any length of time sitting there. I understand that that instance could have been a reaction to something new and unfamiliar, but I'm inclined to believe that it's at least in part due to habit, since it was located in the same location as the old couch that he enthusiastically defiled. BTW- I also thoroughly treated the carpet in that area with the enzymatic cleaner as well. Korey > Yes, I was replying to your post Mary - I'm using google, and it > doesn't allow quoting, at least not using the method of replying I've > found. All you have to do is cut and paste a small section of the post to which you are replying. Highlight, control-x, control v. Or using your mouse. Doesn't your news reader using a thread-type view? It probably does, but I don't use that view as I hate it. :) > Maybe my cat hates people from Taiwan. When we got the new couch > (actually just a cheapo futon from Walmart), he peed on it before [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that he enthusiastically defiled. BTW- I also thoroughly treated the > carpet in that area with the enzymatic cleaner as well. I think it is time to isolate him. Just make sure he has lots of toys and enough space between food and water and litter box and visit him a lot. In appropriate peeing can be one of the toughest problems there is. > I don't want to isolate him (that was very hard last time, but > worked pretty well). I'll look into the "Cat Attract", but I'm > also afraid of upsetting him by changing the litter, so perhaps > I'll get another box and try it additionally. I understand your frustration! Once they begin a bad habit (if it isn't due to illness) its hard to change them! I wish you all the best, and some of the ideas you were given were good ones. > Here's the stupid question of the day- how big is a cat's > bladder? I know before he use to completely soak the old couch, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't really know for sure which behavior we're trying to > solve. I don't know how big a cats bladder is, but my Shamrock pees like a racehorse when he has to go! He doesn't go often, but when he does, he makes it count. I couldn't imagine all that on my couch. Yikes. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields Most recent solution of mine: cheap k-mart plastic table cloths (about $2), then sprayed with citrus room spray (which used to work all by itself). Got tired of washing slipcovers every day or so as it started getting worse. If there is urine (and we're doing ok - keep fingers crossed), it's wiped up - no extra laundry. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album > Thanks all for the advice. Here are some more details about the > situation. We have essentially a two floor house. On the lower level [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > upsetting him by changing the litter, so perhaps I'll get another box > and try it additionally. Please bear with me - I don't have time to read all replies so if some of this has been covered, I apologize in advance... I have used and recommended Cat Attract litter dozens of times with success. But I would also recommend buying new litter boxes first. Over time, plastics retain smells, no matter how well or frequently they are cleaned. I recommend replacing boxes yearly (minimally) for this reason. > Here's the stupid question of the day- how big is a cat's bladder? I > know before he use to completely soak the old couch, clearly emptying > his bladder. On the new couch, it seems like a lot of urine, but the > slipcover is different material. I've never caught him in the act, so > I guess, now that I think of it, I don't really know for sure which > behavior we're trying to solve. It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, even periodically. It might be prudent to have him complete a round of antibiotics to rule out any infection, if you have not done so. As for cleaning - I do not recommend the enzymatic cleaners as they simply do not work well enough - the urine scent is retained and the cat will pee again to cover it up. There are three products I do recommend (from an old post): ***paste I recommend ODOKLEEN cleaner to remove any vomit, urine or feces (it requires lots of rinsing, though - a wet vac works wonders for this), and then treating the area with ODOKILL or NODOR to remove the odor. I have yet to find an odor which is not removed using NODOR. ODOKLEEN and ODOKILL are available through pet supply stores. NODOR is made by Nu-Scents in Knoxville, TN, USA. They are a very small company and do not ship outside of NA. Their product can be ordered in the US by credit card by calling 1*(800)*262*9366. They ship via UPS. They are very nice people. NODOR will kill male cat spray smell. ***end paste Do not use Lysol or Pinesol cleaners as they contain phenolics which are deadly to cats - they cause liver damage. That being said, if the couch has been peed on multiple times, he may never quit peeing on it. You may just have to get rid of the couch. best of luck, -L. > As for cleaning - I do not recommend the enzymatic cleaners as they > simply do not work well enough - the urine scent is retained and the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -L. When I worked for TWA back in the late '60's, the stewardesses would toss dry coffee grounds on passenger "accidents". The grounds absorbed and deodorized very quickly. Sweep up the grounds and dispose. Ever try this with cat "accidents??" > It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition > (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, > even periodically. It might be prudent to have him complete a round of > antibiotics to rule out any infection, if you have not done so. Ohmygawd, how stupid can one human be! *Please* don't even give an animal *or* human "a round of antibiotics to rule out any infection"!!! *Always* make sure there is a virus that needs killing before needlessly administering any medication - and *always* make sure to give the entire bottle and not stop dosing part way through treatment. The reason we are being hit with so many antibody-resistant viruses recently is because of this stupidity. Viruses build up an immunity to antiviral medications and mutate into untreatable forms because of the over-use of antibiotics. Hugs, CatNipped My cat also pee on the floor last winter. After a round of blood and urine tests, the vet couldn't find anything wrong with him. Antibiotic was prescribed as the vet suspected an infection as Rusty is prone to urinary infection. I spent Christmas cleaning up cat urine every morning. Finally I took him to another vet who prescribed Clomicalm. It is an anti-depressant. Right away the inappropriate peeing stopped. After he finished the 2 week medication, the problem started up again. So the vet put him back on Clomicalm. I am weaning him off the medication gradually. Now we are down to pilling every 3 days instead of every day and no more 'accidents'. You can talk to your vet about medication. Rusty always sleeps in his own room with his litter box and the door closed. That didn't stop him from peeing on the floor. Once he even pee on his case of canned food. So locking your cat may not help. But then every cat is different. Good luck. Winnie P.S. Anti-biotic is only good for bacterial infections. Won't work with viral infection. Bacteria can build up resistance to anti-biotic. I used to work in microbiology and some bacteria cultures grow better with the addition of penicillin. >> It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition >> (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > CatNipped > My cat also pee on the floor last winter. After a round of > blood and urine tests, the vet couldn't find anything wrong with him. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Now we are down to pilling every 3 days instead of every > day and no more 'accidents'. You can talk to your vet about medication. Elavil works the same way. > Rusty always sleeps in his own room with his litter box and the door closed. > That didn't stop him from peeing on the floor. Once he even pee on his case [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > viral > infection. Correct. There are no known viral infections of the feline bladder. There are some vets who suspect such viruses exist, but none have been characterized or cultured, to my knowledge. Some vets will prescribe a round of broad-spectrum antibiotics even if the cultures are negative because not all bacteria can be grown in culture (some are obligate parasites) and it is one way to *rule out* all bacterial infections. It's common practice. Also many gram-positive bacteria often do not show up on the usual screeing done in feline urine culture. >Bacteria can build up resistance to anti-biotic. I used to work > in microbiology and some bacteria cultures grow better with the addition > of penicillin. Pennicillin is a secondary metabolite of a fungus, so it "feeds" other species. That's not the same as being antibiotic resistant, though. Unless you are talking specifically about penicillin-resistant bacterial strains. To keep the culture pure, you would have to add Penn to select against cells which are not resistant. Most antibiotic resistance is plamid-mediated - the resistance gene resides on a circluar piece of DNA which can be transferred between bacteria. Usually a few bacteria in a wild colony carry the gene, but as pressure is put on the culture through the addition of antibiotics, selection occurs in which those bacteria that carry the plasmid reproduce more rapidly than those susceptible to the antibiotic - and they start spitting out replicated plasmids into the colony/culture. The free plasmids are then taken up by non-resistant cells (via pilli), and replicated within. Eventually only those cells containing plasmids remain - thus the entire colony is resistant. That's pretty much how resistant strains develop, though non-plasmid-mediated resistance occurs as well, but that's a much longer explanation than I care to give here. -L. >> My cat also pee on the floor last winter. After a round of >> blood and urine tests, the vet couldn't find anything wrong with him. [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > -L. Yes I worked in plasmid DNA research many years ago. That's when I first learned of antibiotic resistance in bacteria. My background is in biochemistry but I worked for a microbiologist doing such research. Sounds like you are well versed in this area. Is Elavil also an anti-depressant? Rusty's vet prescribed antibioic because they found trace of blood in his urine. But the blood can be from the insertion of a catheter to draw urine. Winnie > Yes I worked in plasmid DNA research many years ago. That's > when I first learned of antibiotic resistance in bacteria. My background is > in biochemistry but I worked for a microbiologist doing such research. > Sounds like you are well versed in this area. I was a plant molecular biologist for 15 years. I have a degree in molecular genetics. My first lab job was growing plasmids for plant transformations. :) > Is Elavil also an anti-depressant? Rusty's vet prescribed antibioic because > they found trace of blood in his urine. But the blood can be from the > insertion of a catheter to draw urine. > > Winnie Yes, Elavil is an anti-depressant. Many times vets will prescribe the antibiotic anyway to to make sure they cover all bases. When a case is hard to diagnose, it's a crap shoot, and making sure the urine is "clean" gives you a place to start. Hope Rusty is doing ok now. -L. "-L." <usenetlyn@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Yes, Elavil is an anti-depressant. Many times vets will prescribe the > antibiotic anyway to to make sure they cover all bases. When a case is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -L. Rusty is doing quite well now. Thanks for asking. He is now down to 1 dose of Clomicalm every 3 days. I am hoping to eventually wean him off it completely. While I am getting better at it, sometimes it is still a struggle to pill him. Plus I don't like the idea of him on an anti-depressant long term. Besides, it makes him sleep all day, which may also be due to his age. He is going to be 11 in a few weeks. One thing I don't like about antibiotic is it tends to give Rusty the run. I don't know which is worse, cleaning cat poop or pee off the floor. I do give him yogurt. He also tend to lose his appetite while on antibiotic. Winnie > > It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition > > (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > administering any medication - and *always* make sure to give the entire > bottle and not stop dosing part way through treatment. I think you mean bacteria. Antibiotics do not work on viruses. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ > > > It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition > > > (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I think you mean bacteria. Antibiotics do not work on viruses. Sorry, yes - I did mean bacteria not viruses - as in the antibiotic-resistant flesh eating bacteria we're seeing even here in the US. I'm not a doctor, I don't know very much medicine at all, but even I know you don't just give antibiotics "just in case". Hugs, CatNipped > > > > It sounds to me that he is possibly developing a bladder condition > > > > (infection?) if he is emptying a completely full bladder on the couch, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > CatNipped Doctors do. So do dentists. Sherry > > Sorry, yes - I did mean bacteria not viruses - as in the > > antibiotic-resistant flesh eating bacteria we're seeing even here in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sherry Yep, and have for too long now. And that's exactly *why* we're seeing super-resistant bacteria that don't respond to antibiotics. Hugs, CatNipped > > > Sorry, yes - I did mean bacteria not viruses - as in the > > > antibiotic-resistant flesh eating bacteria we're seeing even here in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Yep, and have for too long now. And that's exactly *why* we're seeing > super-resistant bacteria that don't respond to antibiotics. And why doctors and dentists who know what the f.ck they are doing are more careful now about dosing people with antibiotics "just in case." Because the next time, when they really need them, they may not work. > > I'm not a doctor, I don't know very much medicine at all, but even I > know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Doctors do. So do dentists. Not so much any more. They're beginning to realise overprescription of antibiotics has contributed to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. (When I was a kid, my friend's doctor prescribed antibiotics to everyone for colds. Yeesh!) Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/index.php > > > I'm not a doctor, I don't know very much medicine at all, but even I > > know [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Not so much any more. They're beginning to realise overprescription of > antibiotics has contributed to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. (When I > was a kid, my friend's doctor prescribed antibiotics to everyone for > colds. Yeesh!) Oh yeah, everybody's doctor did. Americans got so used to "wonder drugs", they felt cheated if they left the dr.'s office without an antibiotic. What I was referring to mostly Catnipped's claim that antibiotics should never be prescribed "just in case"...there are still, a whole lot of people for whom that's a necessity. Prior to any kind of dental work, and some medical procedures. Lyn better explained vet's usage of broad-spectrum antibiotics though, much better than I could. Sherry > -- > http://www.slywy.com/ > Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/index.php > > was a kid, my friend's doctor prescribed antibiotics to everyone for > > colds. Yeesh!) > > Oh yeah, everybody's doctor did. My mum knew better than to go to a doctor for a cold. (Our doctor wouldn't have prescribed anything, though.) Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/index.php > > > was a kid, my friend's doctor prescribed antibiotics to everyone for > > > colds. Yeesh!) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My mum knew better than to go to a doctor for a cold. (Our doctor > wouldn't have prescribed anything, though.) You don't have a "mum." You are a typical American. You have a mom. > > > > I'm not a doctor, I don't know very much medicine at all, but > even I [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > lot of people for whom that's a necessity. Prior to any kind of dental > work, and some medical procedures. Dentists are rethinking dosing people with the eight horse pill sized antibiotics (usually amoxycillin) before cleanings etc. due to the heart murmers which are so common in women. It seems the most recent research suggests that the round of antibiotics does more harm than good. > Dentists are rethinking dosing people with the eight horse pill > sized antibiotics (usually amoxycillin) before cleanings etc. due > to the heart murmers which are so common in women. It seems > the most recent research suggests that the round of antibiotics > does more harm than good. Where did you read/hear that? Because I'd be interested in reading further about it. That's news to me. Sherry > > Dentists are rethinking dosing people with the eight horse pill > > sized antibiotics (usually amoxycillin) before cleanings etc. due [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry I could not remember where I read it--my dentist verified it, though. I found some articles that mention it for you, below. A quote from the first: "Doctors used to give anyone with a heart murmur antibiotic medicines before a dental or surgical procedure to prevent infection in your heart valves. (Some of these procedures may cause bacteria to enter the bloodstream, which can lead to infection.) Today, most doctors believe that patients with a heart murmur do not need to take antibiotics before a dental or surgical procedure, unless the murmur is caused by intrinsic valve disease. If you are unsure about whether you need to take antibiotics before a procedure, talk to your doctor or dentist." http://www.tmc.edu/thi/murmur.html http://www.dentalcomfortzone.com/archive/LessIsMore.html Here is a JAMA study that talks about both doctors and dentists overusing antibiotics for low risk people and underusing them for high risk people: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/284/1/68 Then here is a European article for balance: http://www.eapd.gr/Guidelines/Guidelines_Antibiotics.htm Not the best but what I skimmed from Google. (I was interested because I was told I had a heart murmur in my early 20s; now I am told I do NOT have a heart murmur. Honestly sometimes I think the best of these guys still have their heads up their butts half the time.) Mary wrote:> > > > > > Dentists are rethinking dosing people with the eight horse pill > > > sized antibiotics (usually amoxycillin) before cleanings etc. due [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > a heart murmur do not need to take antibiotics before a dental or surgical > procedure, unless the murmur is caused by intrinsic valve disease. Oh, okay. Specifically what I was thinking about is mitral valve prolapse. > (I was interested because I was told I had a heart > murmur in my early 20s; now I am told I do NOT > have a heart murmur. Honestly sometimes I think > the best of these guys still have their heads up their > butts half the time.) DH had a heart murmer as a kid. It's completely gone now. They're saying he "outgrew" it. Sherry | DH had a heart murmer as a kid. It's completely gone now. They're | saying he "outgrew" it. | | Sherry I have a heart murmer, the doctor told me it was just air in the heart, if you get to much air and the pump (heart) can loose it's prime..(suction) but other than that ..lol..it's not big deal. > DH had a heart murmer as a kid. It's completely gone now. They're > saying he "outgrew" it. But you know, from what I have read (I have no citations, I'm sorry, I am a voracious reader and Google Slut!) you DON'T outgrow it. It is a structural defect int he heart. Mitral valve prolapse is allegedly what I have. After the doctor who diagnosed it left, my current doctor said he cannot hear it. Some have speculated that my first doctor may have had a more sensitive stethoscope. Needless to say, none of this inspires confidence. > Oh yeah, everybody's doctor did. Americans got so used to "wonder > drugs", they felt cheated if they left the dr.'s office without an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lot of people for whom that's a necessity. Prior to any kind of dental > work, and some medical procedures. It's also done in humans when other causes of disease cannot be determined. > Lyn better explained vet's usage of broad-spectrum antibiotics though, > much better than I could. > Sherry Should have figured it was CatCrapped's ignorance that spurred all of this. To spell it out: When diagnosing FLUTD, sometimes a cause cannot be found. Vets will often give the cat a course of a broad-spectrum antibiotic to rule out a bacterial infection that a) wasn't caught by testing, b) isn't culturable or c) isn't covered by the tests that were run. This is done to make sure that the urine is free of bacteria before taking any other course of action. It's inexpensive and may take care of the problem, so it's done before more drastic/more expensive measures are taken. It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the effort. Pearls to f.cking swine. -L. > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the effort. > Pearls to f.cking swine. > > -L. Oh, it's just another orchestrated post. She's free to disagree with anyone--I don't care who she agrees *or* disagrees with. But instead of saying, "I disagree"--which she'd respond to *anyone else* with--she begins the post. "Ohmygawd, how stupid can one human be! " Becuase it's Lyn. And her purpose, as far as I can see, is to incite anger from people she doesn't like. She's been back posting ONE DAY, and already trying to dredge up crap from weeks ago. For the life of me I don't know why she can't just post about her cats and stop the "Lyn this, Lyn did that....Cheryl did this, Cheryl did that...Megan blah blah blah.'' Sherry > > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to > > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > this, Cheryl did that...Megan blah blah blah.'' > Sherry I didn't even see the sh.t, and honestly I don't give a sh.t. I just wish that every time anything of substance was posted in this ng, there didn't have to be a f.cking debate/diatribe about something that has *nothing to do* with what's been posted. Somebody always has to go off half-cocked. What I saw was a couple posts saying viruses are not affected by antibiotics (Um, duh! We are not talking about viruses, people!) and discussion about antibiotic resistance from over prescription - an issue which has absolutely NO RELATION to single-use broad spectrum prescribing for idiopathic disease (which is what I suggested the OP might want to TRY since he's not getting relief from other treatments). In all of this non-related discourse, the issue at hand gets lost and people don't get the help they seek. So why even bother trying to help someone, ya know? -L. >>> It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want >>> to bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > -L. Lyn ... the people you need to *help* *out* are the ones you mentioned ... the ones who engage in " f.cking debate/diatribe about something that has *nothing to do* with what's been posted." Help them out the door. "-L." <usenetlyn@yahoo.com> wrote in message > In all of this non-related discourse, the issue at hand gets lost and > people don't get the help they seek. So why even bother trying to help > someone, ya know? > > -L. Breath in, breath out..it's goin be alright! rest your lungs. over there sputtering...mmhm! > "-L." <usenetlyn@yahoo.com> wrote in message > In all of this non-related > discourse, the issue at hand gets lost and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Breath in, breath out..it's goin be alright! rest your lungs. > over there sputtering...mmhm! This is the stupid bitch who spent 50 posts discussing abortion, religion, and birth control in here a month ago. Lynnie's hypocrisy knows no bounds. But best of all, if she does not like you, she lies to your ISP and tells them you sent her a Trojan. She is on record with Bellsouth for doing that to me. And still could not get me TOSed. Ahaha. > Oh, it's just another orchestrated post. She's free to disagree with > anyone--I don't care who she agrees *or* disagrees with. But instead of > saying, "I disagree"--which she'd respond to *anyone else* with--she > begins the post. "Ohmygawd, how stupid can one human be! " Becuase it's > Lyn. And her purpose, as far as I can see, is to incite anger from > people she doesn't like. No, not because it's Lyn. Because it's stupid. And all of us are having to live with the results of that stupidity, and people and animals are *dying* because of the results of that stupidity. A friend of mine died just last year of a bacterial infection that was resistant to antibiotics. She got several treatments of full-specturm antibiotics that did *nothing* to help her. She died a very horrible death. Because antibiotics have for so long been prescribed like candy to the point that they are becoming ineffective. > She's been back posting ONE DAY, and already trying to dredge up crap > from weeks ago. For the life of me I don't know why she can't just > post about her cats and stop the "Lyn this, Lyn did that....Cheryl did > this, Cheryl did that...Megan blah blah blah.'' > Sherry Give it a rest Sherry. All this "do as I say not as I do" just doesn't wash any more. You can preface all your rants with "she's free to" all you want, but as soon as you start bitching about how or why anybody posts you're being just as off-topic, and just as judgmental, and just as inciting as the person you're talking about. > No, not because it's Lyn. Because it's stupid. And all of us are having to > live with the results of that stupidity, and people and animals are *dying* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > her. She died a very horrible death. Because antibiotics have for so long > been prescribed like candy to the point that they are becoming ineffective. I don't know. My 11 year old cat was prescribed an antibiotic when she was a kitten for something that the vet figured was probably a viral infection. He prescribed the antibiotics as a preventative in case of a secondary infection. She improved immediately, and the next day, I doscovered the true problem. A major infection in both ears. She had such fluffy hair on her ears that the infected wounds were not visible. Even when I found them and told my family members, they could not find them right away. She had a ring of pus, the size of a dime, on one ear. Had she not received antibitics, she would only have gotten worse. I have no idea if she would be here today. She was already dehydrated and feverish when I took her to the vet. And to this day, she has a notch in her ear. I am greatful that the vet had a gut feeling and went with it. And just today, my cat was prescribed with antibiotics for a liver problem. Will they help? Who knows. We don't know the actual cause of the liver problem. But if it helps, then I will be very greatful. It's not that expensive and well worth the try. > > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to > > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > this, Cheryl did that...Megan blah blah blah.'' > Sherry I missed this post. Who are you talking about? >> > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to >> > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I missed this post. Who are you talking about? Me. She's pissed because I called Lyn stupid for giving out advice that, because it has been so slavishly followed for so many years, cost me the life of a dear friend. I really don't care that Lyn likes to act like the final authority on all things and spouts off in her pseudo-expert (copied and pasted, probably) pontification. For the most part I just shake my head and don't comment. But when that advice is *SO* wrong that it can cause irreparable harm to cats and humans - well that's when people need to know just how full of it she is! Hugs, CatNipped > >> > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to > >> > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > cats and humans - well that's when people need to know just how full of it > she is! Not to mention the fact that Lyn, Megan and Cheryl have been stirring up sh.t here for months. Sherry has nothing to say about the sh.t they have done, but you are a bad guy for bringing it up? Horse sh.t. > Not to mention the fact that Lyn, Megan and Cheryl have been > stirring up sh.t here for months. Sherry has nothing to say > about the sh.t they have done, but you are a bad guy for > bringing it up? Horse sh.t. Surprise surprise. Another lie about me from Mary. http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2B635D1B Oh, and define "stir up sh.t" for us please? If you want to see "stir up sh.t", shall I provide a link to your history as rosefan@email.com? Hmm? Again, your agenda is crystal clear. HAND and FOAD. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > > Not to mention the fact that Lyn, Megan and Cheryl have been > > stirring up sh.t here for months. Sherry has nothing to say [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Surprise surprise. Another lie about me from Mary. > http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2B635D1B Shall we talk about your sock puppets, sunshine? :) > Oh, and define "stir up sh.t" for us please? If you want to see > "stir up sh.t", shall I provide a link to your history as > rosefan@email.com? Hmm? Were you thinking that for some reason anyone and everyone can't Google that email address on their own? And are you deluded enough to think that we all don't know that if you had anything good you would not have already posted it? lol a.shole. You started this bullshit by claiming I am someone "else," and Googling the f.ck out of me. I began posting here under rosefan@email.com, changed to crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com when I opened a photo page with Yahoo, just to try their email service, and switched to my present so that my name would be in my email. I'm hiding nothing. I have always posted the same way. Do you think anyone would be surprised that I argued with puffed-up a.sholes like you and control freaks like Lynnie and psychos like Megan in other groups? If I had wanted to hide it I would not have posted here under rosefan, genius. On the other hand, your cute little history among the trolls at alt.hackers.malicious when you posted as jlh@petitmorte.net is quite interesting. > Again, your agenda is crystal clear. It is. You are accountable for your actions, buttwipe. You began trying to dig up dirt on my because you don't like what I have to say and how I say it. Your moron buddy Lyn took it as far as netcopping--and I am no longer sure you didn't, though I took your word for it when you denied it. I spanked your sorry a.s when I mentioned your past in the troll and hacker groups, and your nose is still out of joint. Tough sh.t. My agenda, indeed. The message is, if you can dish it out but you can't take it hand in your f.cking spoon. This is an unmoderated, global forum not your personal club. > HAND and FOAD. Back at you, Cheryl. > Back at you, Cheryl. this is too funny > > Back at you, Cheryl. > > this is too funny It really is, and it is all documented via Google. Yes, you may call her Spanky. :) > > > Back at you, Cheryl. > > > > this is too funny > > It really is, and it is all documented via Google. > Yes, you may call her Spanky. :) I see...lol ol' fox got caught! > > > > Back at you, Cheryl. > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ol' fox got caught! Yep. I never go out of my way to screw with people. But I get tired of the same old crap you see in newsgroups everywhere--the pecking order, the Netdicking, etc. I know you've seen it too. pecking order, the Netdicking, etc. I know > you've seen it too. rpchb is first news group i've participated in, and the christian one, for a week or so then I got banned from that one...I was beginning to wonder what took them so long. did somebody use the word "pantywaists" what a hoot but I like your policy > pecking order, the Netdicking, etc. I know > > you've seen it too. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > but I like your policy It's weird, but widespread. People who post in groups for a while get this weird sense of ownership or something. Ridiculing new posters, routinely digging through Google and using it against people they don't like, all with the goal of controlling who posts in "their group." It's like a shared psychosis or something. Usenet is a global, unmoderated forum. Period. > > pecking order, the Netdicking, etc. I know > > > you've seen it too. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of controlling who posts in "their group." It's like a shared psychosis or > something. Usenet is a global, unmoderated forum. Period. Yep, like prejudice, I've never understood this. Standing around patting each others' backs and saying "me too" would get so *incredibly* boring after a while! Just like having everybody in the world be the same color, shape, and mindset would make the world unbearably boring for me. New posters, controversial (even aggravating) posts are what keep a newsgroup interesting. Maybe if you are so unbelievably insecure that you can't stand anybody disagreeing with you (or agreeing with your "enemies" ;>), or if you want to appear to be the ultimate authority on any subject without ever being proved wrong, or if you are using 1960s web technology, or can only read 10 words a minute - then you might want a static, low-traffic place of mutual masturbation posting. But if you have even a little bit of self-confidence, intelligence, or even curiosity, then it would seem you would welcome diverse opinions, lively debates, *lots* of posts, and even witty flamefests (as opposed to the mostly lame sort of flaming we see from some here who can only snipe at people in a cowardly, indirect manner rather than confronting an opponent with courage). Hugs, CatNipped On Fri 20 May 2005 07:02:11p, Mary wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:428e6cda$1_3@newsgate.x- privat.org): >> > Not to mention the fact that Lyn, Megan and Cheryl have been >> > stirring up sh.t here for months. Sherry has nothing to say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Shall we talk about your sock puppets, sunshine? :) Yes please. I presume you'll be able to prove something here. >> Oh, and define "stir up sh.t" for us please? If you want to see >> "stir up sh.t", shall I provide a link to your history as >> rosefan@email.com? Hmm? > > Were you thinking that for some reason anyone and everyone > can't Google that email address on their own? Well, yes, you change your email address so often. Why is that? And define "stir up sh.t". And are you > deluded enough to think that we all don't know that if you > had anything good you would not have already posted it? > lol There's no need. > a.shole. You started this bullshit by claiming I am someone > "else," and Googling the f.ck out of me. You stated that you'd posted to this group for 5 years, yet in all the time I've been here I've never seen anyone with the venom you have. It was curiousity. A leopard doesn't change it's spots. I began posting > here under rosefan@email.com, changed to > crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com when I opened a photo > page with Yahoo, just to try their email service, and > switched to my present so that my name would be in > my email. I'm hiding nothing. I have always posted the > same way. Au contraire. You changed it because of your history in other groups that you didn't want people here to read. Just as you say I changed mine so people wouldn't "find out" about me posting in a hacker group. So what? My posting history doesn't show me being obnoxious to the point that everyone wanted me to leave. Yours does. Do you think anyone would be surprised that > I argued with puffed-up a.sholes like you and control > freaks like Lynnie and psychos like Megan in other > groups? If I had wanted to hide it I would not have > posted here under rosefan, genius. I believe you changed it once you decided that you liked this group. You even wrote yourself after you got some advice for Buddha that you changed your mind about this group, and started actually participating as a reg. WRT the anecdotes group, you wrote that you were only there to disrupt. > On the other hand, your cute little history among > the trolls at alt.hackers.malicious when you posted as > jlh@petitmorte.net is quite interesting. What's interesting about it? You keep saying that, but provide nothing to backup what you mean by it. >> Again, your agenda is crystal clear. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > longer sure you didn't, though I took your word for it > when you denied it. If you were netcopped, you'd have the name of the one who did it. Provide us with Lyn's real name. Then I'll believe your claims. Your ISP is not going to "investigate" an alledged complaint, then tell you about it without telling you who complained. It isn't done that way. I spanked your sorry a.s when I > mentioned your past in the troll and hacker groups, and > your nose is still out of joint. Tough sh.t. You "spanked" me? LOL Uh, ok. > My agenda, indeed. The message is, if you can dish it > out but you can't take it hand in your f.cking spoon. > This is an unmoderated, global forum not your personal > club. Try to remember that when you keep bringing up my name several times a day. I might have ignored it in the past for the good of the group, but I'm done playing things that way. >> HAND and FOAD. > > Back at you, Cheryl. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > Should have figured it was CatCrapped's ignorance that spurred all of > this. http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/community/ > To spell it out: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > problem, so it's done before more drastic/more expensive measures are > taken. Yep, you know more than the Center for Disease Control! > It's exactly this kind of stupidfuckingness that makes me not want to > bother with this group any longer. It's become not worth the effort. > Pearls to f.cking swine. > > -L. Oh please that you would! > > When diagnosing FLUTD, sometimes a cause cannot be found. Vets will > > often give the cat a course of a broad-spectrum antibiotic to rule out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yep, you know more than the Center for Disease Control! But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. When Pudge had a throat problem, my veterinarian prescribed three or four antibiotics successively. On the morning that she was to go in to have a specialist look down her throat, I heard her eating on her own for the first time. The final antibiotic worked. I think the point is, with animals, broad spectrum antibiotics may be the only treatment when all else has failed, to avoid, as she mentioned more drastic measures have to be taken. I'd rather have gone through all the antibiotics we did to hit on the right one than have had to put her through surgery. Humans, as I think she's saying, are another matter. Savvy physicians no longer prescribe antibiotics for every little thing. I did have some amoxicillin recently, but I had strep. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/index.php > But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > longer prescribe antibiotics for every little thing. I did have some > amoxicillin recently, but I had strep. The same antibiotics are used for animals that are used for humans, e.g. Amoxicillin, Clavamox, etc. The more they're used, on humans or animals, the more resistant bacteria will become, the more mutations we will see. There have been previous instances of animal diseases mutating to become deadly to humans. Veterinarians need to learn how to better diagnose and prescribe, or they're only contributing to the problem. They are now doing what physicians did 20 years ago by using a shotgun approach to a situation that requires more finesse than just "keep giving them something until you find something that works". Not just for the sake of humans, but for the animal's sake as well. by the time the fourth or fifth antibiotic is prescribed, not only is the animal more progressed in its disease, but by that time it has built up immunities to all the antibiotics given. I think it is worth it to take a little more time and do a few more tests to find the real cause of a problem and *then* prescribe the best course of treatment. Hugs, CatNipped > > But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There have been previous instances of animal diseases mutating to become > deadly to humans. Yes, I've already agreed with all that, but that misses the point. I'd rather have had an antibiotic do the job than have had to put the cat through surgery. That was the point. Especially since surgery was unnecessary. The OP had apparently tried every other course that was noninvasive. It wasn't like throwing antibiotics at the cat as the first thing to do. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/index.php >> > But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The OP had apparently tried every other course that was noninvasive. It > wasn't like throwing antibiotics at the cat as the first thing to do. I wasn't taking exception to the use of antibiotics, when used to specifically target a certain strain of bacteria, they work wonders. And I agree it's preferrable to surgery when it works. What I'm saying is that vets need to take a step back and learn better diagnostic skills instead of "shotgunning" antibiotics just to see if they'll work - without *any* diagnostic basis for that treatment. I believe this "shotgunning" approach is done because 1) a lot of owners are loathe to spend the money on tests when they have the option of just "shotgunning" antibiotics at lesser expense and vets know this, and 2) vets haven't been educated enough on the dangers of over-using antibiotics (as doctors recently have been). What I was objecting to was the phrase Lyn used, "It might be prudent to have him complete a round of antibiotics to rule out any infection, if you have not done so." A urine sample (or several over time) should show a vet exactly what (if any) strain of bacteria he may be dealing with without having to just prescribe any antibiotic, or a number of antibiotics, to see if it works. With results of the testing on the urine sample, he should then prescribe the *specific* antibiotic that will target that strain. And he should stress (as doctors now-a-days are stressing) the importance of using the *whole* prescription and not stopping it mid-way through treatment. What frightens me (and I've seen it mentioned here a *LOT*) is seeing vets prescribing one antibiotic, waiting a few days and then prescribing something else, then waiting and prescribing yet something else - and not completing treatment with any of them. Each time you give a human or animal those "mini treatments" you are giving bacteria the perfect opportunity to build up an immunity to that antibiotic and *not* be killed off by it because you've stopped it before it was killed. As I mentioned in another post, just last year a dear friend of mine died of a rampant staff infection she got while in a hospital for surgery. The doctors tried every mega-strength antibiotic available to them and none of them worked. It ended up invading her heart and she died a really horrible and painful death. If getting vets educated (or just less lazy in their diagnostic practices) and getting owners for fork over a little more money for lab tests that will narrow down a diagnosis would help prevent even one person or one animal from suffering that fate, don't you think it would be worth it to try to educate vets and pet owners? Hugs, CatNipped > > But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > time and do a few more tests to find the real cause of a problem and *then* > prescribe the best course of treatment. All true. Lyn's expertise as a groomer just does not carry her this far. > > > When diagnosing FLUTD, sometimes a cause cannot be found. Vets will > > > often give the cat a course of a broad-spectrum antibiotic to rule out [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > longer prescribe antibiotics for every little thing. I did have some > amoxicillin recently, but I had strep. I think it is different with cats because they do not "matter" as much as humans. Eventually the vets will stop overusing antibiotics too. It is the same mechanism for f.ck's sake. > But the CDC doesn't deal with animals directly. > > When Pudge had a throat problem, my veterinarian prescribed three or > four antibiotics successively. On the morning that she was to go in to > have a specialist look down her throat, I heard her eating on her own > for the first time. The final antibiotic worked. I think the point is, > with animals, broad spectrum antibiotics may be the only treatment when > all else has failed, to avoid, as she mentioned more drastic measures > have to be taken. I'd rather have gone through all the antibiotics we > did to hit on the right one than have had to put her through surgery. Vets (and doctors too) don't know everything. Sometimes it's a crap shoot to figure out what is wrong. When all other diagnoses/treatments fail, a single course of broad-spec antibiotic is a simple, cheap, and many times effective way to heal the disease state. It's probable that the last antibiotic your vet tried had a different mode of action that the first couple. FME, though, most vets won't try more than two unless infection is apparent. The OP had tried everything else, so if antibiotics hadn't been tried it was prudent to do so at this point. We once had a cat in that had an extremely rare form of foot cancer. The vet I worked for was exceptionally experienced and had never seen anything like this. All cultures came up negative, yet he suspected bacterial infection - ruled that out with antibiotic therapy. Then fungus - gave a round of antifungals. The disease progressed. He eventually did a second biopsy and sent it away to UC Davis and Cornell - at extreme expense to the cat's guardian. The diagnosis came back cancer from Cornell - Davis couldn't diagnose. So sometimes even the "experts" don't know everything. Had the antibiotics worked (had the disease been a bacterial infection that was difficult to diagnose), it would have saved the guardian thousands of dollars. Sometimes it's just "try it to see what works". My friend who is a vet said that this is the most frustrating part about being a vet - not having all the answers. > Humans, as I think she's saying, are another matter. Savvy physicians no > longer prescribe antibiotics for every little thing. I did have some > amoxicillin recently, but I had strep. They don't. But there are certain classes of people for whom antibiotic prescription is done as one of the first courses of action, to keep the underlying disease state from getting worse or to keep secondary infections from arising. The immunocompromised, heart patients, some asthmatics, pre- and post-op patients, infertility treatments, etc. I was once given a round of Zithromax to rule out Mycoplasma. But we're not even talking about humans here, so it's a moot point (as usual!). -L. > Vets (and doctors too) don't know everything. Sometimes it's a crap > shoot to figure out what is wrong. When all other diagnoses/treatments > fail, a single course of broad-spec antibiotic is a simple, cheap, Bingo! Exactly what I just posted - it's the cheapest way to treat so why bother with expensive lab tests that could pinpoint the exact problem. > and > many times effective way to heal the disease state. It's probable that > the last antibiotic your vet tried had a different mode of action that > the first couple. FME, though, most vets won't try more than two > unless infection is apparent. The OP had tried everything else, so if > antibiotics hadn't been tried it was prudent to do so at this point. And the first couple have given the bacteria a staging ground for building immunity and mutation. It's *not* prudent, it's just cheap but very dangerous. > We once had a cat in that had an extremely rare form of foot cancer. > The vet I worked for was exceptionally experienced and had never seen [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Mycoplasma. But we're not even talking about humans here, so it's a > moot point (as usual!). We have all read about how you feel that cats are not worth your money or your bother (pick a healthy, easy one, kill the harder to handle ones). But Lyn, some of us *care* about our cats - *and* about future generations of cats who will have to face the prospect (which humans are now facing) of being infected with bacteria that are resistant to all known antibiotic treatment - and they'll die horrible deaths (but what the heck, they're not human so why should we care?). Even putting that aside though, you idiot, bacteria have *already* crossed species boundaries and you're putting your *SON* at risk of being infected with bacteria that have mutated in animals because of "shotgunning" antibiotics. > -L. CATNIPPED WROTE: > Even putting that aside though, you idiot, bacteria have *already* crossed > species boundaries and you're putting your *SON* at risk of being infected > with bacteria that have mutated in animals because of "shotgunning" > antibiotics. See, this is the part I don't get. You might clarify it for us. Lyn's post specifically said "When other diagnostics/treatments fail", and from another of Lyn's posts: "When diagnosing FLUTD, sometimes a cause cannot be found. Vets will often give the cat a course of a broad-spectrum antibiotic to rule out a bacterial infection that a) wasn't caught by testing, b) isn't culturable or c) isn't covered by the tests that were run. This is done to make sure that the urine is free of bacteria before taking any other course of action. It's inexpensive and may take care of the problem, so it's done before more drastic/more expensive measures are taken." This doesn't sound to me like she's advising over-use of antibiotic. You might explain this from the veterinary community standpoint and clarify just how she's singularly responsible for putting her son at risk of dying from bacterial infection. After all, you don't want us to think you're just trying to get Lyn to roll around in the muck with you, right? Sherry > CATNIPPED WROTE: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > This doesn't sound to me like she's advising over-use of antibiotic. That's because that's not the post I was responding to, she wrote that later in the thread. I was responding to her statement, "It might be prudent to have him complete a round of antibiotics to rule out any infection, if you have not done so." Any even half informed person doesn't recommend just doling out antibiotics to "rule out" something - you make an informed diagnosis and then you prescribe the antibiotic that targets that bacteria. > You might explain this from the veterinary community standpoint and > clarify just how she's singularly responsible for putting her son at > risk of dying from bacterial infection. Trying to sound like an authority again, Lyn gave the "advice" to give an antibiotic just to "rule out" something. Every time someone follows that advice and pressures his/her doctor or vet to dole out antibiotics unnecessarily, they are contributing to the problem of bacteria mutating and becoming immune to antibiotics and they are putting both animals *and* humans at risk. Don't you ever read a newspaper? Have you not heard of the flesh eating bacteria now being found (it was here in Houston just recently) - even "super" antibiotics have no effect on it. As I've stated before in this thread, the same antibiotics used on humans are used on animals, there are bacteria that have crossed the species boundary. Indiscriminately "pushing" antibiotics into our environment is criminally negligent. > After all, you don't want us to think you're just trying to get Lyn to > roll around in the muck with you, right? Not possible since Lyn has a magic newsreader that she can use in Google to not only kill file me but to surgically remove any text I've written even from others' posts. Oh, unless you're referring to the fact that even so she can psychically know what I've written and respond to it when posting to others. The fact that she uses names like "Catcrapped" doesn't clue you in to the fact that this little feud is *NOT* one-sided does it - perhaps not since you don't seem to have a clue. What you do have is a great big spoon since you're the one here stirring muck. > Sherry > > CATNIPPED WROTE: > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > That's because that's not the post I was responding to, she wrote that later > in the thread. No, she didn't. She had already posted the clarification LONG before you posted that she's trying to kill her son. And that's not what I'm asking, anyway. See what you're doing? You're so busy taking the opportunity to slam LYN, you can't even justify your accusations. Exactly how is she trying to kill her son, when she specific |
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