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5 y.o. female getting along with 5 m.o. female - complications?

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Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 14 Sep 2003 19:17 GMT
Hello all,

First off - thanks for the info about the wet cat food (in the thread
"Best wet food for cystitis"), we've got both our cats (only one has
cystitis) on Science Diet now (the kitten won't eat the flavor of kitten
Science Diet that we got, so we're feeding her the Adult 'til we can get
back to the store in a day or two to try another flavor or two).  Yeah, we
know Science Diet might not be the best, but we thought that at least
getting them onto some wet food first would be good, then we can do some
research in the next few days to determine the best food for them.

Now, hopefully somebody (or somebodies) will be able to share some insight
on our situation (it's bound to be a pretty common one, but we haven't
encountered it before).  We would greatly appreciate any feedback because
my wife and I have a gap between our opinions on this matter.

Sharon's cat history (for the past 14 years) has been Leo (a 1 year old
male extremely mellow, loving orange tabby with all 4 paws declawed - he
was declawed before she got him, and yes, we're in the USA), then she got
Pepper (a 1 year old male DSH that she had front declawed) when Leo was
about 2 years old.  Leo and Pepper lived together fairly harmoniously
(they scuffled and played, but not real aggression) and she had both cats
when we met (in 1994).  In early 1996, Leo died and Pepper was alone for
about 6 months.  We got Iggy when Pepper was 4 years old (a male kitten
about 3 months old that we had front declawed) and Iggy and Pepper lived
together fairly harmoniously (see above) after about 2 years, he died of a
heart attack brought on by hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (I think that's
what it was called - basically a heart that grows too fast in male
fast-growing kittens).  So Pepper was alone for a few months again until
we got Golddust (a 3 month old female Torby that we had front declawed)
when Pepper was 7 years old.  Pepper and Golddust got along fairly
harmoniously (see above) until Pepper died of lymphoma a few months ago (I
had posted about him in a thread about IBD a while back when the vet
thought he had IBD, but unfortunately it turned out to be lymphoma - he
went on chemo and had a fairly good last year of his life, but it invaded
his bone marrow and that was it).  Golddust was along for a couple of
months, then about a month ago, we got Luna (a 4 month old female that we
believe is pretty much a Blue Tortie Burmese - her personality and looks
fit the descriptions pretty well that we have not had declawed).  So we've
got a 5 month old female with all her claws and a 5 year old female with
only her back claws.  All cats have been spayed/neutered.  Golddust also
had the herpes virus when she was about 1 year old (it showed up by making
one of her eyes watery and swollen almost shut), which will apparently be
in her system forever.  So that's kind of the past history, now on to the
situation.

Golddust is currently going through a bout of cystitis (blood in the pee
started showing up in the middle of last week).  We're not sure about the
cause because the vet said no stones or crystals or bacteria.  We believe
it might be stress-related (with Pepper's death and/or the arrival of Luna
contributing) and we've had our cats on dry food, so it may have just
reached a point where Golddust went over the edge.  She's now on wet food
and Prednisolone and has started peeing much larger volumes each time she
goes (and she doesn't visit the litter box as often).  The vet said it
could also be viral (related to the herpes that's in her system that's
aggravated by stress).

Luna has been fairly aggressive, but we're not sure if it's just kitten
behavior or if it's true aggression.  We've read that female Burmese tend
to want to rule the household (according to the CFA description) and
Golddust tended to be top cat over Pepper (even though he was older), so
we're thinking that Golddust is probably feeling threatened by Luna.  
When we brought Luna in, Golddust hissed and growled (the Exorcist
demon-possessed type growls :-)) quite a bit.  Over the past month,
relations have gotten better, but Luna still pretty much starts every
fight, but I think it's because she wants to play and it's usual kitten
behavior, and Sharon thinks it's because she wants to assert her top-cat
standing and take it away from Golddust.  Golddust just hisses and swats
at her a bit, then runs away.  Luna will chase her sometimes and keep
dinging Golddust (that's the term our vet used).  Other than that, they
use the same litterbox, sleep in the same room at night, sometimes lay
around fairly close to each other, but they won't really play with each
other.  So, to me, it seems like they're tolerating each other and it will
probably get better as time goes on and Luna starts being less kittenish
and settles down a bit.  Sharon thinks that Luna might be a continual
bothersome presence to Golddust and they might never really get along.

We didn't have Luna declawed because I read up on declawing and realized
what kind of operation it was and didn't think we should do it.  Sharon
went along with this, but with reservations because she thought (and still
thinks) that in a fight, Luna might accidentally or instinctively use her
claws on Golddust.  I believe that this might happen, but that the
injuries (if there would be any, since Golddust has a pretty thick coat)  
would be fairly minor.  Sharon believes that the injuries could be serious
(such as a scratched eye or something similar).  It doesn't appear that
she has used her claws on Golddust (she really doesn't use them at all
except on her scratching posts, and occasionally while playing with a
string).  BTW, our vet (cat only) does declawing and he has all of his
cats declawed (all 4 paws) because (in his own words) his wife has spent
25 years accumulating a lot of nice things."  To those of you against
declawing, please don't discount his vet skills on account of that
statement - he's been really good to all of our cats so far and has never
really screwed anything up or caused any harm to any of our cats.  So, the
first of a few questions - Is it a possibility that Luna will use her
claws (either accidentally or on purpose)?  How much of a possibility?

Sharon believes that stress caused by us bringing Luna into our apartment
and Luna having her claws (actually, that Golddust might sense that Luna
has her claws and might use them) might have caused Golddust's cystitis.  
I believe that the cystitis could have been aggravated by the stress of
Luna's arrival, but I don't know if the stress actually caused the
cystitis or if it would've just happened anyway.  I don't believe that the
claws factor into the stress equation.  Anybody got any opinions on this?

Our vet told us that we had about the worst of all possible combinations
of cats - bringing another cat (kitten or adult, he said it doesn't
matter) into a household where there's an adult female.  He said that
males tend to be a lot more forgiving when you bring in another cat (which
has been our entire past experience - an older male with another younger
cat of either gender being brought in).  But I know that there are *lots*
of people that have an older female and bring in a younger cat and it
works out OK.  It may just be the specific personalities of each of our
cats that's not gelling right now, but if anybody has any insight on this,
we'd appreciate it.

So, if you've read this far, thank you very much!  It kind of all boils
down to this - Sharon thinks that it's a possibility that because Luna has
her claws and is aggressive towards Golddust, she will be causing Golddust
stress and might keep making her sick (we don't know if it's a coincidence
or not that the cystitis showed up now).  Sharon also thinks that in any
play scuffling, Luna would have an unfair advantage, therefore making her
the "top cat" by default, and it would be an unfair fight.  Sharon also is
reluctant to leave them along together after this bout with cystitis.  I
believe that the stress is caused just by Luna's existence in our
household, and has nothing to do with the claws (because I don't believe
that the claws will come out during a fight) and that once Luna gets a bit
older and settles down, they'll pretty much be in a truce.  Pepper's death
could also have contributed to the stress, we think.

Any opinions on what's going on with the cats and if they'll eventually
get along or if Luna will constantly be pissing Golddust off and Golddust
will be getting sick all the time or they'll reach a truce or ....?

Thanks again for reading this lengthy post and for any advice....

brian
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Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 14 Sep 2003 21:01 GMT
If anybody's read the entire post I made earlier, thanks, and I wanted to
add a couple of things.

Please, no holy war on whether or not to declaw and how good/bad we are
if we do/don't do it.. :-)

And it appears that our options are:

Wait and see what happens and how they get along (and Golddust might or
might not get sick in the future, possibly because of the other cat's
presence or possibly just because sometimes it happens due to other
factors).

Use Soft Paws on the kitten to see if the claw issue is really an issue
(which wouldn't take away the stress caused by the presence of the kitten
and might or might not keep Golddust healthy)

Declaw the new kitten (which wouldn't take away the stress caused by the
presence of the kitten and might or might not keep Golddust healthy)

Take the new kitten back to the agency we got her from so there won't be
the stress of her presence (and this might or might not keep Golddust
healthy, since illness can sometimes just happen due to other factors).

Opinions on any of the above?

Thanks again for reading.

brian
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zuzu22@webtv.net - 14 Sep 2003 21:28 GMT
<Story of years of unnecessary cat mutilations and current plans to
possibly mutilate another innocent kitten snipped>

If you can't live with a cat with claws, take the kitten back and only
adopt already declawed cats. There's plenty of them available.
Mutilating current or future cats for your own convenience has to stop.
This idea that the kitten will somehow maim the older cat simply because
it has claws is ridiculous. There are many of us here that have had
declawed and clawed cats live together for their whole lives wihout the
declawed cats suffering claw related injuries. I think your wife needs
to either stop being so ignorant or seriously rethink her choice of pets
if she can't learn to live with them without mutilating them and causing
them painful trauma and an irreversible handicap. Anyone that knows what
declawing is and still chooses to do it is heartless and should not be
trusted with cats. That includes your vet.

Megan

                                   
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Karen Chuplis - 14 Sep 2003 22:33 GMT
> <Story of years of unnecessary cat mutilations and current plans to
> possibly mutilate another innocent kitten snipped>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray

The vet seems particularly suspicious to me. I've never known even vets that
declaw to four paw declaw. I can just hardly believe this vet does it
routinely. I would certainly find a different vet!

Karen
MaryL - 14 Sep 2003 23:47 GMT
> in article 1915-3F64CF6E-184@storefull-2138.public.lawson.webtv.net,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Karen

I agree.  This part of the message seemed particularly suspicious to me.  I
am not trying to start a flame war, but I would like to reinforce Karen's
statement that even vets who declaw will seldom consent to four-paw declaw.
My vet told me that he has only declawed all four paws once in his long
career, and that was because the woman said she was going to euthanize the
cat if he did not consent.  I hope you will look for another vet.  This vet
may have some fine skills, but he is lacking in compassion and the quality
of caring that should be an essential part of the relationship.

As to whether clawed and declawed cats can get along -- yes, they certainly
can.  Your cats will generally engage in play, which sometimes will seem
aggressive to you.  Even if it is vigorous play, it would be extremely rare
for one cat to literally "scratch" the other.  Both of my cats have very
healthy (and very sharp!) claws.  Neither has ever caused any damage to the
other, and one of them is blind.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly (pictorial history of my blind cat Duffy's
integration into our household):
Duffy, Part I: The Introduction -- http://tinyurl.com/8y54
Duffy, Part II: Life at Home -- http://tinyurl.com/8y56
Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 15 Sep 2003 01:10 GMT
>> in article 1915-3F64CF6E-184@storefull-2138.public.lawson.webtv.net,
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> may have some fine skills, but he is lacking in compassion and the quality
> of caring that should be an essential part of the relationship.

Personally, I've suspected that he doesn't quite have enough of the
compassion/caring that he should for a while, but as long as he's
technically capable, we really don't want to go through the enormous
challenge of locating a vet that's the "right" one, especially since we're
planning to move out of the area as soon as we can.

> As to whether clawed and declawed cats can get along -- yes, they certainly
> can.  Your cats will generally engage in play, which sometimes will seem
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> MaryL

Thanks for your post.

brian
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Karen Chuplis - 14 Sep 2003 22:32 GMT
> If anybody's read the entire post I made earlier, thanks, and I wanted to
> add a couple of things.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> brian

Personally I think you just need to do a slow introduction. Clawed and
declawed cats can do fine together. I'm glad you've seen the light about
declawing.

Karen
Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 15 Sep 2003 01:13 GMT
> Personally I think you just need to do a slow introduction. Clawed and
> declawed cats can do fine together. I'm glad you've seen the light about
> declawing.

We did the slow introduction when we got the kitten (it took about a week
to introduce the new kitten to Golddust, as opposed to a couple of days
with the earlier introductions of new kittens to Pepper), and they've been
together for about a month now, so are you suggesting we separate and
re-introduce them?

Thanks for your post...

brian
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Karen Chuplis - 15 Sep 2003 05:51 GMT
>> Personally I think you just need to do a slow introduction. Clawed and
>> declawed cats can do fine together. I'm glad you've seen the light about
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> brian

It depends on how agressive they are acting. Is it real fighting?

Karen
Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 15 Sep 2003 16:58 GMT
> It depends on how agressive they are acting. Is it real fighting?
>
> Karen

The playing/fighting usually lasts about 5 seconds - Luna (the kitten, who
weighs 5 lbs) always initiates it (Golddust, the older cat, who weighs
11 lbs, has started it about .5% of the time), and it usually is Luna
going up to Golddust and trying to grab her around the neck from either
the bottom or top, and then Golddust whacks her and hisses and yelps one
time, then runs off.  So it's not really much of an incident.

According to the chart at:

http://www.feline-behavior.com/html/cats_cats.html

Vocalizations:  Golddust is the only one that vocalizes and they're
usually just hissing or yelping once.

Injuries:  No injuries to either cat.

Avoidance:  They hang out in the same rooms, eat at bowls about a foot
apart at the same time, used to sleep in the same room and use the same
litterbox (currently Golddust is separated in another room 'cos of the
cystitis), and Golddust will watch Luna play and sometimes engage in play
at the same time (but not with Luna, just with another string or
something).

Roles:  Neither seem to really be either on the offensive or defensive -
Luna will arch up with her tail fluffed (but in kittens, I've read that
that's a sign of play, not aggressiveness?) sometimes, but not often
anymore.  Golddust just lays around watching Luna and they walk by each
other most of the time without incident.

Friendliness:  See the above info - they seem to tolerate each other, but
not real friendly.

Initiation:  Luna pretty much always starts it.  Of course, once Golddust
gets over her cystitis, she might want to start playing again, but who
knows.

So based on the above, I don't think it's real fighting, but it's not
totally play either.

Thanks for reading.

brian
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Karen Chuplis - 15 Sep 2003 17:40 GMT
Sounds pretty normal for this stage. I wouldn't worry.

Karen

> > It depends on how agressive they are acting. Is it real fighting?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> brian
Chris - 15 Sep 2003 04:18 GMT
Well, I don't think the clawing/declawing is the issue.  I agree it sounds
like kitten behavior.  I don't know where your vet gets its ideas but I have
one female who has 'mothered' every kitten that came after her (3).  It
takes a while for them to settle in & I absolutely would not worry about
accidental scratches.  Even declawed cats pack quite a wallop when a little
one really starts anoying them.  And the fact that they sleep in the same
room, etc. just tells you that the big one is NOT afraid of the little guy.
Just give it some time & don't worry--you know they really do work it out
out in their own way!
> Hello all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
>
> brian
Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 15 Sep 2003 17:03 GMT
> Well, I don't think the clawing/declawing is the issue.  I agree it sounds
> like kitten behavior.  I don't know where your vet gets its ideas but I have
> one female who has 'mothered' every kitten that came after her (3).  

Yeah, I know that there are thousands (if not tens of thousands or
millions) of people out there that have an older female cat that has had a
female kitten introduced and gotten along.  I'm thinking it may just be
the personalities/traits of these specific cats.

> It takes a while for them to settle in & I absolutely would not worry
> about accidental scratches.  

My wife and I were in a difference of opinion here - I thought that if
the kitten injured the older one, it would be pretty minor the first time
or two, then if the kitten really did get aggressive, it would get worse.  
My wife seemed to think it would be a fairly major injury first time out
(either accidentally caused or instinctively caused).

> Even declawed cats pack quite a wallop when a little
> one really starts anoying them.  

Yeah, the older cat is 11 lbs and the kitten's about 5 lbs, so the older
one really could whack (or sit on) the kitten fairly well if she got
pissed off enough.

> And the fact that they sleep in the same
> room, etc. just tells you that the big one is NOT afraid of the little guy.
> Just give it some time & don't worry--you know they really do work it out
> out in their own way!

That's kind of what I was thinking, but my wife's and my opinions are so
differing that it's too damn stressful to have to deal with this whole
thing every time something goes the tiniest bit awry with the cats.

Thanks for the post.

brian
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Brian or Sharon Beuchaw - 16 Sep 2003 02:39 GMT
Hi,

Sharon here. First of all, thanks for your concern. There have been
some things I think Brian has not noticed as much as I have. The older cat
seemed depressed after we brought the Luna in (wouldn't play, hid and
slept all day). Also, as Luna grew more comfortable in her new
environment, she became more aggressive and Golddust became reluctant to
go into the room with her at night to sleep. (Golddust has always put
herself to bed at night, or else Mommy might carry her and kiss her, and
she doesn't like that!) Also, one day Golddust followed me to the door as
I was leaving for work and sat on my purse, as if she didn't want me to
leave.  We have had her five years and she has never behaved like that.
Then I noticed that the kitten would run up and start drinking water if
Golddust was drinking water, and Golddust would stop drinking. Same thing
with food. And whenever Golddust would come into the living from her
hiding place to hang with us, Luna would attack her. Golddust seemed
pretty shaken after these little encounters, not just annoyed.

And then, as it turns out, Golddust got sick fairly soon afterward, with
cystitis, a condition that stress can contribute to. We had to get her
X-rayed to make sure she did not have kidney stones or a blockage. My main
worry is that the stress over the kitten will make Golddust sick again.
Golddust was here first. She should feel safe and comfortable in her own
home. It gets me mad when I see cats at a shelter who were given up
because they didn't get along with a new kitten in the house. These
people, in my view, are not true cat people, but I digress.

Currently, they are in separate rooms until Golddust fully recuperates.
I'm thinking we might supervise them when they are together, and keep them
in different rooms when we leave the house. I'm not sure how long we
should do this, however. Any input would be appreciated.

I don't want them to just tolerate each other. I want them to be friends.
It is obvious that Luna wants to be top cat, but she does not like to be
left alone, we have found. Golddust gets annoyed with her, but stares at
her in fascination when she plays and has licked her. I am not without
hope.

But I am wondering how long we should give it. We don't want Golddust to
get sick again, and we want to do what is best for Luna, too.

As for the declawing issue, that is completely secondary at this point.
Taking her claws away would not make her harmless to Golddust, probably.

Thank again for reading.

Sharon

>> Well, I don't think the clawing/declawing is the issue.  I agree it sounds
>> like kitten behavior.  I don't know where your vet gets its ideas but I have
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> brian

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