Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2005
I was a stranger - No Reply
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bigbadbarry - 06 May 2005 05:51 GMT And Mary took me in.
She showed a genuine interest in my cat Ruprecht, and we talked about Ruprechts diet ~ she was a lawyer in my court room, and a doctor in my sick room (laughter does good like medicine)
waaayyyeeellll what can I say
I know this might sound korny but
Thanks Mary your a cool cat.
This is korny ain't it...oh well, I wanted to say it.
-L. - 06 May 2005 06:22 GMT > And Mary took me in. Don't be flattered. She does that to all the newbies. Nobody else will listen to her.
> She showed a genuine interest in my cat Ruprecht, and we talked about > Ruprechts diet ~ she was a lawyer in my court room, and a doctor in my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thanks Mary your a cool cat. What a compliment: "your a cool cat". I'd say it fits.
> This is korny ain't it...oh well, I wanted to say it. You were an a.shole who came in posting that you smacked your cat around and Typhoid Mary sucked onto you anyway - just like a fly on sh.t.
Quite appropriate, actually.
-L.
Mary - 06 May 2005 07:31 GMT > > And Mary took me in. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -L.
:) Poor Lynnie. Why don't you try complaining to Bellsouth again? I'm sure they have stopped laughing by now.
Still mad because I got on your case when you told a woman who had a cat she loved to return it to the shelter because it pooped on a bathroom rug? Tough. You were wrong and your suggestion was cruel.
But back to you. You're old, you're fat, you're damned near blind, and your personality sucks too. Not only that, but you couldn't even manage to do what 99% of women have to take measures NOT to do. No wonder you're unhappy. However ... You just cannot inflict it on everyone else. Not on everyone.
:) Noon Cat Nick - 06 May 2005 09:39 GMT > > > And Mary took me in. > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > You just cannot inflict it on everyone else. Not on everyone. > :) Hey, all of you, stop tracking mud all over my nice clean kitchen floor!
Mary - 07 May 2005 00:02 GMT > > > > And Mary took me in. > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Hey, all of you, stop tracking mud all over my nice clean kitchen floor! Oh, man, this is *your* kitchen? I am so sorry. How can you cook with all this racket?
bigbadbarry - 06 May 2005 15:06 GMT > Quite appropriate, actually. > > -L. You ain't for sale! ain't nobody buying you.
Just quit it.
bigbadbarry - 06 May 2005 15:18 GMT > Quite appropriate, actually. > > -L. "In another post, -L. wrote: I cant believe I am excited over poop!!! WOW!!. Doesnt take much does it??? Try this guys. I don't know what was up with the other.
For those of you that still use diaper bags...what do you have in them?
-----------------------------------
sriddles@aol.com - 06 May 2005 16:17 GMT > > Quite appropriate, actually. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > For those of you that still use diaper bags...what do you have in them? You might find that you'll get more response from this group when your posts actually make sense. Also, when you post about Ruprect, or cats in general. HTH
Sherry
bigbadbarry - 06 May 2005 16:34 GMT sridd...@aol.com wrote:
> You might find that you'll get more response from this group when your > posts actually make sense. It was a simple thank you to someone Ill never meet, and then I get called a tail-hole?
AND I THOUGHT I REQUESTED NO REPLY, SO AS NOT TO CREATE THE NECESSITY FOR ANYONE TO FEEL LIKE IT REQUIRED A RESPONSE...geeez
Leave me alone.
John Doe - 06 May 2005 16:54 GMT "bigbadbarry" <bigbadbarry@adelphia.net> wrote:
> sridd...@aol.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It was a simple thank you to someone Ill never meet, and then I > get called a tail-hole? Obviously, a simple "thank you" is not all you're doing, you can do that via e-mail. Starting a new off-topic thread for personal reasons is unnecessary/annoying. If you want to take Mary's side, do it in context instead of in a new thread.
> AND I THOUGHT I REQUESTED NO REPLY, SO AS NOT TO CREATE THE > NECESSITY FOR ANYONE TO FEEL LIKE IT REQUIRED A RESPONSE...geeez > > Leave me alone. There is no such protocol in this worldwide public forum.
> Path: newssvr33.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com!newscon03.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail > From: "bigbadbarry" <bigbadbarry adelphia.net> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Injection-Info: f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.170.50.72; posting-account=spjB1A0AAABQAQQ5dkg3_gZwONU3us3k > Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:365538 Justin L - 06 May 2005 19:04 GMT <snip what John Doe wrote>
John, why do you insist on pasting the headers in every message you reply to?
Justin
Mary - 06 May 2005 21:46 GMT > <snip what John Doe wrote> > > John, why do you insist on pasting the headers in every message you > reply to? Hee, Justin you asked him this a couple of months ago and he told you he is documenting the posts. He wants them archived.
(i.e. he's a few fruit loops short of breakfast.)
Mary - 06 May 2005 21:42 GMT > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > reasons is unnecessary/annoying. If you want to take Mary's side, > do it in context instead of in a new thread. And here, again, is another a.shole telling you how to post, and why it is okay for Sherry to be an a.shole to you and tell you how to post, and etc. Anyone in the Old Guard may post about anything they want, abortion, sales at Walmart, religion, their own pathetic self-induced illnesses, the deaths of their children, etc., but if anyone who has not posted for very long does it, well, the Oltimers get their old lady panties in a BIG knot. Asked Catnipped. She got da bidness last month. :)
Do what you want. And never worry about what tedious people say, or interfere with what charming people do. (Oscar Wilde.) You have a great voice. You're a good musician and a creative person. That's three things that place you head and shoulders above these unhappy hags. Don't let them spread the unhappy. I never do.
sriddles@aol.com - 06 May 2005 22:08 GMT > > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > lady panties in a BIG knot. Asked Catnipped. She got > da bidness last month. :) Ummm. I wasn't being an a.shole. His posts make no sense. Whatsoever. "You ain't for sale! ain't nobody buying you." ???? Guess I need an interpreter. Anyone here speak Dung-Beetle?
Sherry
Steve G - 06 May 2005 22:30 GMT sridd...@aol.com wrote: (...)
> Guess I need an interpreter. Anyone here speak Dung-Beetle? May be e iz a fan ov Feersum Endjinn &n ee iz just ritin lyk Bascule. May bee e iz all so lukin 4 is pet ant. Cud b in Ruprechts e r?
S.
Mary - 06 May 2005 22:47 GMT > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > (...) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > S. Your voice must be verrrrry verrrrry high.
Steve G - 06 May 2005 23:00 GMT > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > (...) > > > Guess I need an interpreter. Anyone here speak Dung-Beetle? >(...) > > Your voice must be verrrrry verrrrry high. Yes, but I have an auxiliary subwoofer.
S.
Mary - 06 May 2005 23:09 GMT > > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > > (...) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes, but I have an auxiliary subwoofer. Yes but those knotted old lady drawers would compress that too, wouldn't they, big fella?
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 02:30 GMT > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > (...) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > S. L, was selling something, I simply said, nobody is buying it.
but, pet ant in cats ear?...I don't wanna know.
Mary - 06 May 2005 23:09 GMT > > > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > "You ain't for sale! ain't nobody buying you." ???? > Guess I need an interpreter. Anyone here speak Dung-Beetle? That would be your darling Lynnie's language, sunshine. However, I do understand Barry this time, the problem is that he is more intelligent and creative than you or your sidekicks. Let me just translate it into Assholese for you:
Your good buddy Lynnie said:
> Quite appropriate, actually. > > -L. And Barry replied:
>You ain't for sale! ain't nobody buying you.
>Just quit it. It is a play on the word appropriate.
One meaning is "proper"
Another is to obtain or buy.
AppropriATE, get it?
Loosen up. It's okay to use language creatively. It is even okay to be under 40, and you are allowed to behave like you do not have a baseball bat lodged up your a.s, too, if you were wondering.
You don't like how Catnipped posts, you don't like how Barry posts, you are just getting way to rigid to have any fun.
On the good side, membership in the rcph+b a.shole Society is booming, so at least you have company. You can all sit around with Phil and say "these damned whippersnappers don't know how to post" while he cratches his hemorrhoids and Lynnie uses her Computer for the Blind. What's your affliction? Aside from your recent acquisition of the afore- mentioned baseball bat?
Mary - 07 May 2005 01:42 GMT > > > > > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > Society is booming, so at least you have company. > You can all sit around with Phil That should be PhilLIP!
> and say "these damned > whippersnappers don't know how to post" while he > cratches his hemorrhoids and Lynnie uses her > Computer for the Blind. What's your affliction? > Aside from your recent acquisition of the afore- > mentioned baseball bat? Catnipped - 07 May 2005 02:40 GMT > And here, again, is another a.shole telling you how to post, > and why it is okay for Sherry to be an a.shole to you and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lady panties in a BIG knot. Asked Catnipped. She got > da bidness last month. :) LOL - I was blasted and I wasn't even posting off-topic (I was posting in the indoor / outdoor debate about the health of outdoor cat vs. indoor cats). I was just posting *too much*. Overwhelming all those gazillions of people who use WebTV, dontcha know! ;>
Hugs,
CatNipped
Mary - 07 May 2005 04:59 GMT > > And here, again, is another a.shole telling you how to post, > > and why it is okay for Sherry to be an a.shole to you and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cats). I was just posting *too much*. Overwhelming all those gazillions of > people who use WebTV, dontcha know! ;> It's just the same old bullshit--an imagined pecking order. Group psychosis. Delusions of grandeur. Total a.shole Syndrome. :)
Mary - 06 May 2005 21:38 GMT > sridd...@aol.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Leave me alone. Barry: a good rule of thumb is, anyone who speaks for "the group" or tells you how to post has their head up their a.s. There's a group of old timers (and I do mean old timers) who have grown strangely possessive of this Usenet group, as though they have some sort of rights or power that of course they do not. It's not you--it's anybody new who does not kiss their a.ses. So don't take it personally. They backbite and fight amongst themselves too.
Your main crime is talking to me. So if you want to be fwends with the kind of people who behave the way these old girls and boys do, well, you should post a few Mary sucks posts or announce that you are putting me in your killfile. :)
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 03:05 GMT > They backbite and fight amongst themselves too. theoretically; a group that keeps biting on themselves (here a nibble there a nibble) eat each other up, till their gone - nothing left to bite.
Mary - 07 May 2005 05:01 GMT > > They backbite and fight amongst themselves too. > > theoretically; a group that keeps biting on themselves (here a nibble > there a nibble) eat each other up, till their gone - nothing left to > bite. Barry, you are an optimist. Lynnie's a.s alone could withstand a fleet of piranha. :) She's a big 'un. Not that I have anything against big 'uns, mind you.
Charlie Wilkes - 07 May 2005 02:08 GMT >Leave me alone. HORK!
I have seen some low-down, shameless trollery in my day, but this takes the cake.
Charlie
-L. - 06 May 2005 18:45 GMT > > Quite appropriate, actually. > > > > -L. > > "In another post, -L. wrote: I cant believe I am excited over poop!!! > WOW!!. Doesnt take much does it??? You are dumber than I thought. That was a post I replied to in ANOTHER newsgroup:
Message-ID: <20040419113210.09800.00000031@mb-m04.aol.com>
> Try this guys. I don't know what was > up with the other. > > For those of you that still use diaper bags...what do you have in them? > > ----------------------------------- ?
Um, ok. Whatever. Maybe you should stick to cats...? Just don't beat them, ok?
-L.
bigbadbarry - 06 May 2005 19:19 GMT > > "In another post, -L. wrote: I cant believe I am excited over poop!!! > > WOW!!. Doesnt take much does it??? > > You are dumber than I thought. That was a post I replied to in ANOTHER > newsgroup: Sooo I took one line of your post like you did mine, sooo you get judged by the same method you judged me.
Look, what have I ever done to you, you grabbed one line of my post and call me a troll, you try to discredit certain folk at all costs...why be this way. Really reading some of your other posts you seem to be quite normal and sociable.
actin like blo-fly
it's bad business to caca where you eat
-------------
everybody loves me, and if they don't I totally disagree with them!
and if after getting to know me they still don't love me, then come on back and we'll argue some more...
Ah lighten up ol gal! life is short, don't get your feathers ruffled over nothing. We know you aint no blo-fly, and Im not even angry - if it even matters.
you gotta admit, that was a good one
> > "In another post, -L. wrote: I cant believe I am excited over poop!!! > > WOW!!. Doesnt take much does it??? Just laugh why dontcha!
Mary - 06 May 2005 20:57 GMT > > > "In another post, -L. wrote: I cant believe I am excited over > poop!!! [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Just laugh why dontcha! Lynn hates me so much that anyone who talks to me gets to her. It's kind of fun. :)
Steve G - 06 May 2005 21:02 GMT (...)
> it's bad business to caca where you eat Unless you're a dung beetle.
S.
-L. - 06 May 2005 23:44 GMT > Sooo I took one line of your post like you did mine, sooo you get > judged by the same method you judged me. Do I *really* have to explain this again? That was not MY quote you used.
Look - I quit reading your drivel way back when you first posted in here saying that you smacked your cat. I don't "do" cat abusers. I was just pointing out that you really shouldn't feel all that special about Typhoid Mary's attention - she does that to all the newbies.
And as for "discrediting" her at any cost, that's a laugh. She discredited herself long ago.
So have at it BBB - I won't be responding any longer. Just don't smack you cat, ok? It's abusive.
-L.
Mary - 06 May 2005 23:55 GMT > > Sooo I took one line of your post like you did mine, sooo you get > > judged by the same method you judged me. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -L. I really like "Typhoid Mary." My grandfather used to use that phrase.
Diane L. Schirf - 07 May 2005 01:17 GMT > Just don't beat > them, ok? Huh?
 Signature http://www.slywy.com/
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 01:33 GMT > > Just don't beat > > them, ok? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > http://www.slywy.com/ who ever said n.e. thing about a beating - this was fabricated on your part.
I know whatca posted, I know who wrote it, but thing is, long as you get to make up stuff, then I can too... tee hee hee giggle.
Look, this is soooo tiresome...
believe what you want, fact is...that poor little helpless abused beaten cat that little fella was rubbin my feet this morning...kneading them through the covers.
Now does that sound like a cat that has been slapped around?...Im sure everybodies cat is sweet, <cough cough?, but I've never had a cat rub my feet. In fact, I think i better write about it.
Diane L. Schirf - 07 May 2005 01:40 GMT > > > Just don't beat > > > them, ok? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Look, this is soooo tiresome... I don't remember anyone saying anything about hitting a cat; that's why I said, "Huh?"
 Signature http://www.slywy.com/
-L. - 07 May 2005 02:13 GMT > I don't remember anyone saying anything about hitting a cat; that's why > I said, "Huh?" Barry did. I just reposted his initial post to this ng where he admits hitting his cat not once, but at least twice. Here it is again.
**********
From: bigbadba...@adelphia.net Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Subject: Agressive Cat Workaround Date: 17 Apr 2005 22:24:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: <1113801866.158216.127500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.168.21.143 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1113801872 4972 127.0.0.1 (18 Apr 2005 05:24:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:24:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.168.21.143; posting-account=spjB1A0AAABQAQQ5dkg3_gZwONU3us3k
Speak your cats language.
If the cat takes a swing at you... take one at him.
Evidently its the language he speaks...
cat aint got no respect for a whimp.
I run a music studio...cat got under the console and was playing with wires chewing scratchin..and so on...weee weeee..
boom...I got him with a single leaf of rolled up newspaper....
he has never done that again...(those electrical wires could kill him...I just made him mad...but he never done it again).
One time, when I first got this super large cat..he tried to slice my ear off...very aggressive..ears layed back...growlin the whole bit...first I popped him...made him even more mad..
he kept flaylin at me...then I grabbed him behind the neck and lifted his front feet off the floor..then in a firm voice..i say
CALM DOWN! #$@#$ ...CALM DOWN!@#@#$@ after about 40 seconds... he got his wit and calmed down...
and has never ever taken another swing at me. he tucks me in every night...walks around my blanket...tucks tucks...finally finds a spot up close...and we sleep till morning. (this is true...he loves to tuck my blanket in all around...) i tell you the truth..
one morning the cat woke me up licking my feet (dont tell nobody about this...)...he was licking my feet..
what woke me up was he was trying to bite a calous off...go figure!
hoooo cat hoooo...thats my foot man!"
-L.
-L. - 07 May 2005 02:11 GMT > who ever said n.e. thing about a beating - this was fabricated on your > part. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > everybodies cat is sweet, <cough cough?, but I've never had a cat rub > my feet. In fact, I think i better write about it. You're a f.cking liar. Does this post ring a bell?...
"From: bigbadba...@adelphia.net Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Subject: Agressive Cat Workaround Date: 17 Apr 2005 22:24:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: <1113801866.158216.127500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.168.21.143 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1113801872 4972 127.0.0.1 (18 Apr 2005 05:24:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:24:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.168.21.143; posting-account=spjB1A0AAABQAQQ5dkg3_gZwONU3us3k
Speak your cats language.
If the cat takes a swing at you... take one at him.
Evidently its the language he speaks...
cat aint got no respect for a whimp.
I run a music studio...cat got under the console and was playing with wires chewing scratchin..and so on...weee weeee..
boom...I got him with a single leaf of rolled up newspaper....
he has never done that again...(those electrical wires could kill him...I just made him mad...but he never done it again).
One time, when I first got this super large cat..he tried to slice my ear off...very aggressive..ears layed back...growlin the whole bit...first I popped him...made him even more mad..
he kept flaylin at me...then I grabbed him behind the neck and lifted his front feet off the floor..then in a firm voice..i say
CALM DOWN! #$@#$ ...CALM DOWN!@#@#$@ after about 40 seconds... he got his wit and calmed down...
and has never ever taken another swing at me. he tucks me in every night...walks around my blanket...tucks tucks...finally finds a spot up close...and we sleep till morning. (this is true...he loves to tuck my blanket in all around...) i tell you the truth..
one morning the cat woke me up licking my feet (dont tell nobody about this...)...he was licking my feet..
what woke me up was he was trying to bite a calous off...go figure!
hoooo cat hoooo...thats my foot man!"
****
The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a cat.
-L.
Charlie Wilkes - 07 May 2005 05:55 GMT >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a >cat. Bah! I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. The guy swatted his cat. So what? I don't think it's effective, but it's not animal abuse as I understand the concept. If he did it regularly and terrorized the poor animal, or if he hit the cat hard enough to really hurt it, then it would be abuse.
Charlie
Mary - 07 May 2005 05:57 GMT > >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a > >cat. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Charlie I slapped my cat when she bit me and drew blood. She never did it again. Same with Barry.
Charlie Wilkes - 07 May 2005 08:00 GMT >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I slapped my cat when she bit me and drew blood. >She never did it again. Same with Barry. I have more experience with dogs. If a dog plays too rough with me, I display an exaggerated reaction of pain and then avoid the animal for awhile, and that gets the message across. Cats are different animals, of course.
Charlie
Catnipped - 07 May 2005 15:41 GMT > >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a > >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Charlie With cats you have to act like a cat to get the message across. When kittens are playing and one gets too rough the other will give out a high-pitched "MEW". The aggressor kitty will then stop biting or clawing. I've found that works well to train kittens and let them know that bare human skin can not take bites and scratches like hair-covered kitten skin can. With older cats, if the "MEW" doesn't work, I've found that a hiss and baring of teeth will let them know that they are being too rough.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Charlie Wilkes - 07 May 2005 21:59 GMT >> >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a >> >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >CatNipped That is exactly comparable to the approach I have used successfully with dogs that play too rough.
Tweaker's got the right touch... he is always grabbing me with his paws and clamping his teeth on my bare arm, but never with any force. He kneads the crook of my elbow when I'm typing at the computer, and I don't feel his claws at all.
Charlie
bigbadbarry - 08 May 2005 02:08 GMT > can. With older cats, if the "MEW" doesn't work, I've found that a hiss and > baring of teeth will let them know that they are being too rough. > > Hugs, > > CatNipped I would have never thought of this.
Ruprecht used to clamp down on my arm - during those times, I would not resist him, but just let him have my arm. Then i'd ease out of his grab, but I learned if I pulled from the beginning it only made it worse.
When he's walking through, Im always careful not to pet him hard...I take size into mind; I wouldnt want a giant pushing me left then right everytime I walked through, so i try not to take him off his path. This is a small thing, but deep down, I think he appreciates these little things.
Other times, I totally ambush him and hurl him across the room onto the monster feather comforter...when he lands it just swallows him up; it makes one big pleat in the comfortor. He totally digs this; he grins real big...and waves his arms and legs like a newborn...its pretty funny.
Lately he gets lots of deep tissue massages. I should have named him requite because he's so receptive.
Catnipped - 08 May 2005 02:30 GMT > > can. With older cats, if the "MEW" doesn't work, I've found that a > hiss and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > grab, but I learned if I pulled from the beginning it only made it > worse. Cats' teeth (and tongue, actually) are designed by evolution the pull flesh away from the bone. So when a cat bites you, as hard as it may be to go against the instinct to pull away from the pain, you should do just the opposite and push *inwards*. This causes a gag reflex and then you can safely pull your hand (or whatever) out of harms way.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Mary - 07 May 2005 17:23 GMT > >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a > >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > awhile, and that gets the message across. Cats are different animals, > of course. I wouldn't do it again--I was in my teens, and she surprised me when she bit me to the bone. It was part reflex, for sure, but from then on, her bites did not break the skin, and all I had to do was say "ow!" and she stopped biting and started licking me. When I say slap (as Barry and I have already covered) I mean a rude tap at the side of the face, not a violent, forceful slap.
Charlie Wilkes - 07 May 2005 22:22 GMT >> >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a >> >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >slap (as Barry and I have already covered) I mean a rude tap >at the side of the face, not a violent, forceful slap. Of course. Such corrections are not abuse and they may be necessary sometimes. I think people who spend a lot of time with their animals evolve toward less confrontational techniques, however -- in part because there are definitely many situations, with dogs at least, in which even a mild correction will quickly make the problem much worse. Resource guarding is one example with dogs. I've been round and round with Janet Boss and the other "authoritarian" dog trainers in RPDB. Can't tell 'em nuthin, even though it's published in any number of highly regarded books -- and then they post their sob stories with a cargo-cult theory about what must have gone wrong.
Everyone dumps on Jerry Howe, and he is indeed an annoying lunatic, but I thank my lucky stars I read his manual when Holly was a pup, because if I had tried "authoritarian" training with her, I'd have had a problem on my hands. I've seen what can happen when some macho idiot decides to use force to show an aggressive dog who's boss.
With cats, I suppose the worst that happens is the cat doesn't like its owner and lays a turd in the clothes dryer.
Charlie
Catnipped - 07 May 2005 22:44 GMT > Of course. Such corrections are not abuse and they may be necessary > sometimes. I think people who spend a lot of time with their animals [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Charlie My daughter, who barely weighs 110 pounds, has always been very successful training *very* large dogs including Rottweillers and Pit Bulls. She *NEVER* uses negative reinforcement except in the sense of withholding positive reinforcement. *BUT* she always establishes the "alpha" position in the relationship immediately. This can be as simple as holding them down gently on their backs when they jump up or start to become aggressive. It is very important that a dog sees all human members of the family as higher in the "pack" than they are. This is not something bad in a dog's eyes, in fact they are happier when they know their place in the "pack" - it's less stressful for them.
Cats can cause more problems than just inappropriate elimination if they are treated badly - in fact I am more afraid of the harm a cat can do to me than a dog - dogs can be controlled a lot easier than cats can, they've been domesticated for longer.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Charlie Wilkes - 08 May 2005 03:06 GMT >> Of course. Such corrections are not abuse and they may be necessary >> sometimes. I think people who spend a lot of time with their animals [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >fact they are happier when they know their place in the "pack" - it's less >stressful for them. Holly was never aggressive toward me, but she is highly aggressive toward strangers who show up in the driveway. She charges them, snarling and barking with her hackles up, with her big fangs gleaming and dripping. She looks fully ready to kill. Any kind of protest on my part makes the reaction worse. But gradually I have worked with her to turn it into a kind of scripted performance so people can see immediately that she is under my control.
The most important thing is recall. Anything less than 100 percent with a dog like Holly is asking for trouble. And that level of reliability requires trust and deep affection for which no substitutes will work. A shock collar on a hunting dog may be one thing, but not on a protection-oriented dog.
Holly's daddy came from Haiti, where people need tough dogs they can depend on. Her ferocity melts in the presence of children, and she instinctively knows what to do. She will freeze if a toddler needs to lean on her to steady himself, and she will bark and follow a toddler who starts to wander off. She is protective toward domestic fowl and cats, which is why it has taken her so long to become comfortable playing with Tweaker. If you ever have seen the "Good Dog Carl" books, that's my Holly. You probably can't tell from this post, but I'm very proud of her.
I think this "alpha" business has caused untold grief to dogs and their owners. Dogs instinctively know their human owner is in charge. Most "bad behavior" arises from stress rather than a sense of unrestrained liberty. An owner who is always sympathetic, always kind, and patient enough to teach the dog effectively, will make the dog feel secure and will achieve good behavior, within the parameters of the breed.
Also, recent research suggests that early observers were mistaken in which wild canids they identified as "alphas." Some canids do indeed use physical dominance to successfully ward off competitors for food, etc. But they are not at the top of the hierarchy. The top dogs are generally passive and calm, avoiding disputes with courteous behavior and judicious accommodation. Careful, long-term observation shows that they are the ones who consistently get preferential treatment from the other dogs. I can cite this if need be.
>Cats can cause more problems than just inappropriate elimination if they are >treated badly - in fact I am more afraid of the harm a cat can do to me than >a dog - dogs can be controlled a lot easier than cats can, they've been >domesticated for longer. As far as I can see, cats can never be made fully tame and reliable. Their affection and compliance is conditional, whereas a good dog is categorically subservient to the master's will.
Charlie
>Hugs, > >CatNipped Catnipped - 08 May 2005 03:59 GMT > Holly was never aggressive toward me, but she is highly aggressive > toward strangers who show up in the driveway. She charges them, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > her to turn it into a kind of scripted performance so people can see > immediately that she is under my control. If you can't keep her from charging people, how can you say she is under your control - or did I misunderstand what you wrote?
My daughter's dogs respond to her (softly spoken) commands instantly - no matter what the circumstance, no matter what provocation the dog may have had. She has three small daughters and that's the only way she could feel comfortable with such large dogs around them. She has also taught her daughters how to command instant obedience from her dogs. None of her training involves even the hint of violence, you can train them better with love and firmness than with a rolled up newspaper.
> The most important thing is recall. Anything less than 100 percent > with a dog like Holly is asking for trouble. And that level of > reliability requires trust and deep affection for which no substitutes > will work. A shock collar on a hunting dog may be one thing, but not > on a protection-oriented dog. You're right, when you are dealing with large (potentially dangerous) dogs, you must have absolute control over them. There have been too many horror stories of dogs (like pit bulls) who have mauled children to have anything else but absolute control.
> Holly's daddy came from Haiti, where people need tough dogs they can > depend on. Her ferocity melts in the presence of children, and she [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I think this "alpha" business has caused untold grief to dogs and > their owners. Dogs instinctively know their human owner is in charge. I have to disagree here. Dogs do *not* instinctively know that their owner is in charge, they have to be taught that as puppies. If you allow a dog to jump all over you and not listen to you when you command it, then the dog will believe that *he* is in charge. I'm not saying you need to break a dog's spirit or be mean to him to establish dominance (I've never heard my daughter even raise her voice to her dogs), but you *definitely* need to let the dog know that you are the alpha member of the "pack".
Indeed, the more affectionate you are to your dog, the better family member he will be - loving and protecting the other members of his "pack". But you can *not* let the dog think he is the alpha member unless you want to be bitten the first time you do something he thinks is threatening to his position as "top dog". Again, I'm not saying it takes abusive behavior - I did say *gently* hold your dog on his back when he is being agressive - and when he submits to you reward him with affection. The effectiveness of this training was very evident to me when I saw an 80 pound pit bull back away and sit down and watch as my (then) 2-year-old granddaughter pushed him aside so she could take a taste of his kibble. [He also allowed little fingers to be shoved up his nose and into his ears, bones to be pulled out of his mouth, and he gave them "horsie" rides on his back.]
> Most "bad behavior" arises from stress rather than a sense of > unrestrained liberty. An owner who is always sympathetic, always > kind, and patient enough to teach the dog effectively, will make the > dog feel secure and will achieve good behavior, within the parameters > of the breed. I agree with everything except the "unrestrained liberty". A dog *must* be restrainable (how else would you teach him to walk on a lead, or not run out into traffic if he slips his lead, or not to attack someone he may mistakenly think is threatening you?). Being sympathetic, always kind, and patient enough to teach the dog effectively does not preclude establishing dominance and control over the dog. My daughter's dogs are extremely happy and experience *NO* stress by knowing their place within the "pack" - her family. They are also safe from the results of their unrestrained behavior (and they make perfect house guests when they come to visit because they are as well behaved as my granddaughters are, maybe better ;>).
> Also, recent research suggests that early observers were mistaken in > which wild canids they identified as "alphas." Some canids do indeed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that they are the ones who consistently get preferential treatment > from the other dogs. I can cite this if need be. Well, I don't think the "long-term observation" was long enough. Yes, the alpha member can be calm and avoid disputes because at some earlier time they have established dominance within their pack. Once position in a pack is established there is no more need for shows of dominance. Have you ever observed dogs at "play" with each other until one submits? Or an adult dog force a puppy to roll over onto his back and then place a paw on his side or belly? It's all still "play", and the puppy is not at all hurt, but dominance has been established.
> >Cats can cause more problems than just inappropriate elimination if they are > >treated badly - in fact I am more afraid of the harm a cat can do to me than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Their affection and compliance is conditional, whereas a good dog is > categorically subservient to the master's will. Yep, I agree - as I think most vets would. My daughter can make her dogs sit quietly for shots and examinations, but I couldn't guarantee my cats behavior if they feel threatened!
Hugs,
CatNipped
> Charlie > > > >Hugs, > > > >CatNipped bigbadbarry - 08 May 2005 05:46 GMT > My daughter's dogs respond to her (softly spoken) commands instantly - no > matter what the circumstance, no matter what provocation the dog may have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > > >CatNipped Establishing dominance - what do you reccomend here Everyday social skills - as you say love and firmness And classic parlor tricks - bacon works best for these
Charlie Wilkes - 08 May 2005 11:00 GMT >> Holly was never aggressive toward me, but she is highly aggressive >> toward strangers who show up in the driveway. She charges them, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If you can't keep her from charging people, how can you say she is under >your control - or did I misunderstand what you wrote? She'll do as I ask, but usually I don't stop her. I live out in the country, in a rural area of 5 and 10 acre hobby farms. Many of the people in the area are city and suburban transplants who think they're in a lawless zone where they can start brush fires on a hot day in August, blast away at animals in dense shrubbery with their beloved guns, or pull into people's yards and poke around to see what they've got that might fit in the back of a pickup. If the person is ok, they will find out soon enough that the dog is ok too.
Once or twice, I've had someone show up who figured he could intimidate the dog with macho behavior. That is where the need for 100% recall enters the equation.
>My daughter's dogs respond to her (softly spoken) commands instantly - no >matter what the circumstance, no matter what provocation the dog may have [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >fingers to be shoved up his nose and into his ears, bones to be pulled out >of his mouth, and he gave them "horsie" rides on his back.] That is a pit bull's nature, not the result of training. Read about pit bulls if you doubt me. These psycho dogs that the punks and gang-bangers have are not real pit bulls for the most part.
>> Most "bad behavior" arises from stress rather than a sense of >> unrestrained liberty. An owner who is always sympathetic, always [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I agree with everything except the "unrestrained liberty". A dog *must* be >restrainable (how else would you teach him to walk on a lead, or not run out I think you misunderstood my point. I mean that dogs do not generally misbehave because they have calculated that they can get away with it even though they know their master won't approve. They misbehave because they don't know what is expected of them and they are too agitated from stress to calm down.
>into traffic if he slips his lead, or not to attack someone he may >mistakenly think is threatening you?). Being sympathetic, always kind, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Well, I don't think the "long-term observation" was long enough. You don't, eh? I can hardly disagree as I don't know the extent or duration of your own research on this subject. The study to which I refer spanned 30 years. Here is a brief summary:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
The link below is a bio of the guy who did the work. He started the project at Yale and moved it to Berkeley after accepting a job there.
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/biomems/fbeach.html
Charlie
Mary - 07 May 2005 23:16 GMT > >> >> >The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a > >> >> >cat. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > sometimes. I think people who spend a lot of time with their animals > evolve toward less confrontational techniques, however Man, isn't this the truth. I think I would cut off my arm rather than slap Cheeks or Buddha.
-- in part
> because there are definitely many situations, with dogs at least, in > which even a mild correction will quickly make the problem much worse. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a problem on my hands. I've seen what can happen when some macho > idiot decides to use force to show an aggressive dog who's boss. He has been driven to extremes by a.shole dog owners whom he feels abuses their dogs.
Charlie Wilkes - 08 May 2005 03:46 GMT >> Everyone dumps on Jerry Howe, and he is indeed an annoying lunatic, >> but I thank my lucky stars I read his manual when Holly was a pup, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >He has been driven to extremes by a.shole dog owners whom >he feels abuses their dogs. Yes. Most of the people in that group are fairly stupid, for one thing. There are some women from Baltimore who have given me a new appreciation for John Waters as an astute local colorist. RPDB is a good outhouse for trolls to take a big smelly dump, but otherwise it's useless.
Charlie
Mary - 08 May 2005 06:14 GMT > >> Everyone dumps on Jerry Howe, and he is indeed an annoying lunatic, > >> but I thank my lucky stars I read his manual when Holly was a pup, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > thing. There are some women from Baltimore who have given me a new > appreciation for John Waters as an astute local colorist. LOL! Very true words. Stupid people can drive one to distraction.
bigbadbarry - 08 May 2005 01:41 GMT > Of course. Such corrections are not abuse and they may be necessary > sometimes. I think people who spend a lot of time with their animals > evolve toward less confrontational techniques, however -- in part > Charlie True
Today, I cannot imagine spanking my Ruprecht, he does such a good job rubbing my feet, he can get by with just about whatever he wants.
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 17:15 GMT > -L. Are you smellin what I'm stepping in?
Mary - 07 May 2005 17:18 GMT > > -L. > > Are you smellin what I'm stepping in? I don't think so. She's used to it. She's the source, so she carries it around with her all the time.
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 17:41 GMT > You're a f.cking liar. Does this post ring a bell?... Who denied anything? Not I
Look just admit it - you will never be Mary. Stop using my honesty as a mask.
The second time, was a swat with a single leaf of newspaper for electrical chord chewing. You got a problem with that Frizzy?, or is it Tattty?
> The truth is, you're an animal abuser, and you don't deserve to have a > cat. > > -L. Now, anytime somebody goes ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON about something...
THIER HIDING SOMETHING.
You got anything you want to tell us Poof!?! Now you can slam me in words on here, but Iiiiiii see through it...Me and You know the truth don't we.
Because you have certainly gone on and on about this one incident, put a magnifying glass OVER IT...and zoomed in on an action...
That's what the media did with that marine who is being charged with murder, but the enemy combatant (who was playing possum) blew his own cover by moving and reaching for a gun. I would have shot him too.
Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear.
but I still like your poems, I think you should just come clean here and leave me out of it...tell us what is going on. Cause it aint me...
If for one second you think I lied...your dilluted and your grabbing at straws...just come clean.
Mary - 07 May 2005 17:56 GMT > > You're a f.cking liar. Does this post ring a bell?... > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > If for one second you think I lied...your dilluted and your grabbing at > straws...just come clean. She is dilluted. :) She's a freak, and an unhappy, controlling freak. How much does it suck to be Lynnie, let us count the ways.
Anyway, don't worry about it.You and Ruprecht are part of the family. Lynnie is the part we would hide in the attic if we could.
Diane L. Schirf - 07 May 2005 18:17 GMT > The second time, was a swat with a single leaf of newspaper for > electrical chord chewing. I think everyone should try this on themselves. It's like being whacked with a feather. Owwww. ;)
 Signature http://www.slywy.com/
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 19:36 GMT > > The second time, was a swat with a single leaf of newspaper for > > electrical chord chewing. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > http://www.slywy.com/ Someone might have shaved you down and taught you to talk, but don't forget your still a bigfoot.
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 19:40 GMT I'm just messin, no harm no foul, just fabricate somewhere else. Makes sense though, you do write fiction right?...just not about me.
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 21:06 GMT > > The second time, was a swat with a single leaf of newspaper for > > electrical chord chewing. > > I think everyone should try this on themselves. It's like being whacked > with a feather. Owwww. ;) what?!
bigbadbarry - 07 May 2005 21:13 GMT > > The second time, was a swat with a single leaf of newspaper for > > electrical chord chewing. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > http://www.slywy.com/ I sorry for calling you a bigfoot
I thought -L. and you was one in the same; because -L. don't trim her posts or toenails.
Im sorry Diane.
Mary - 07 May 2005 01:39 GMT > > Just don't beat > > them, ok? > > Huh? LOL, Killfile queen. So you miss a few things, at what cost peace? Heh.
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