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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2006Inappropriate toileting... I'm at the end of my rope!
Hello, all.... It's been a couple years since I've done more than occasionally read here (I'm an old, old, OLD timer from when there was just rec.pets.cats, though I recognize so few names now). I am posting in a last-ditch cry for help. After years of being the "cat therapist" all my friends turn to... I may have been beat. Maui is a goofy seal-point Siamese, adopted from my vet a year and a half ago after Lenny and Lucy passed away. He came with a partner, Blue. They had been left to my vet after ther previous person died. Other than rather stressed at all the changes in their lives, they were a pair of healthy 7 year old Meezers. For a year and a half, we've been trying to get Maui to use the litterbox. He does... but he also uses the apartment carpet. And he's launched his latest escalation of this behaviour recently. He both urinates and defecates in random spots. Despite the fact that there have been 2 or 3 completely clean litterboxes out for him. He goes for weeks or a few months without doing this, we think we've "fixed" it, then the puddles, or worse, just the smells we have to track down, start again. We have ruled out organic causes. He's been to the vet over and over. He's STAYED at the vet for 2 weeks, then lived in a bathroom for a week, with perfect litter-box behaviour then soaked the carpet again. My vet, who is a Guelph and Cornell-trained cat specialist and a damn good cat shrink herself, has been to my home herself and sat and watched us, inspected the litterboxes, checked for things she might see as stresses.... nothing obvious. She said my litter boxes are cleaner than hers are some days. They're the biggest I could get. We've tried them covered and uncovered. No urine crystals or infection. No apparent pain, masses, tumours... short of running him through an MRI which I can't do, we can't find anything. We've tried Feliway, but this is not spraying/urine marking, it's flat on the floor, often in the middle of the room. He's been on Prozac. He's presently on Clomicalm. Both may or may not have helped temporarily - maybe they did or maybe he just decided to behave for a bit - but any effect definitely didn't stick. We don't yell, scold, or freak out at him, rather we try to reward him when he uses the litter box, if we're around. He seems to appreciate it and will go through spells of coming to "get" me to watch him use the box and then taking a treat. But it also doesn't "stick". The only other thing is he (and his friend Blue) occasionally gets vetacortyl shots, as every few months he has a flare-up of something that causes them to groom patches out of their fur. The toileting problem hasn't been noticeably tied to this other issue, but again, it's hard to tell. Blue doesn't seem to have this issue. Last night, he soaked my office floor right behind me while I was sitting right there! I didn't hear he was in the room until he started scraping the carpet to "bury" it. This morning, the puddle was outside our bedroom door as we got up, fresh and warm. Like he waited for the alarm, went out the door far enough to pee, and came back to bed as we were getting up. I've used enough Nature's miracle to fill a swimming pool by now, and I am about to get kicked out of my home with all 4 of my cats by a very unhappy and usually very tolerant partner.... Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing this? I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here (can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and disputes) and return him to the vet. This would not be disatrous for him, they came with a "bring them back if you ever need to" guarantee and my vet has offered many times - I just hate to give up, and I had to separate him from his pal even though they don't seem that attached. Plus he can be a nice cat when he tries.... Sorry to go on so long. I just really am at a loss, after 13 years of being "the cat lady" to everyone who knows me. Thanks, Johanna With a Furrsome (presently) Foursome of Panda-ov-Toes, Sprout!, Maui and Blue... > Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing > this? I have no idea, but I hope you get it worked out. I do have a relative who has this little dog who simply cannot be potty trained for whatever reason (probably my relative's fault, but who knows). The dog just doesn't "get" it. You know what they do? The dog wears a diaper -- one of those diapers for dogs in heat, with a human pantyliner in it. Just a thought, even if it's more amusing thinking about your cat running around in a diaper than an actual feasible "solution". Good luck.  Signature-- ~kaeli~ The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >Just a thought, even if it's more amusing thinking about your cat running >around in a diaper than an actual feasible "solution". >Good luck. If I put a diaper on Carey, someone would be removing it. The other cat, Carey herself, one of the dogs. I just can't fathom how that could possibly be a solution! Pee on the sofa this morning, after 1.5 good weeks :-( I am not a happy 24/7 laundry maid. SignatureJanet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album >>She said my litter boxes are cleaner >> than hers are some days. Is it possible that your litter boxes are TOO clean? Sometimes there needs to be a little smell to remind them what the box is for. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire > I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here > (can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Sorry to go on so long. I just really am at a loss, after 13 years of > being "the cat lady" to everyone who knows me.// When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is where a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a territory. Basically, Robbie would just about anywhere - even in front of you. He's a very "sensitive" cat, very jumpy, as he had an horrendous abouse history before I got him - the abuse was one of the reasons he came to Cats Protection. Because he came into a quiet house, with one other cat and didn't have to compete for his right over a territory, his middening behaviour stopped. He now lives on his own with my mom and dad, and his litter box habits are immaculate. Has your cat been "mugged" by one of the other cats as he uses the litter box, making him wary about using it? If you're using an open box, try a closed one where he feels more secure, or if you're using a closed one, try an open one where he can see what is going on. Have you tried changing the type of litter you use? My cat Tiger refuses point blank to use anything pine based, Robbie won't use anything clay based. Neither cat likes to use scented litter and both use un-scented "Yesterdays News" happily. Maybe he just really wants a home of his own with no other cats. It really does sound like to me that it is a territory thing - where is he in the pecking order of the household? Helen M Have you tried changing the litter type? Hiya - well, nice to know I'm at least not alone! I have indeed thought it is a territory, or territory/anxiety thing. I right now have two "pairs" of cats. Panda and Sprout, who used to be half of a cuddly foursome, and Maui and Blue, who came as a pair after Lenny and Lucy both passed away. There is definitely a two-and-two dynamic. "Pecking order" is hard to peg, but wherever he is, I guess he's not happy. He has moments of trying to challenge Panda, who I think is really Top Cat here, and then other moments of letting teeny, skittish little Blue push him away from his food and he's fine with that. Maui and Blue, prior to my house, spent their entire lives in a one bedroom apartment with one little old lady. They never saw other animals and they had never seen *men*, and I have one of those too. Maui's definitely skittish *at times* - but dang it all, we had a Great Dane visit for a few days over the holidays and he thought she was the greatest thing ever and followed her everywhere - so he is not categorically intimidated by new or strange animals/people. I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner. Maui appears to really seek out Adam's attention at times and then other times Adam does something and Maui runs away. By "does something" I don't mean assaults the cat... I mean he sneezes, or laughs out loud, or turns the radio on, or just gets up and walks to another room too fast. He's a heavy man, occasionally clumsy, and I think just startles the cats sometimes. Or maybe he just ignores Maui at the wrong moment - last night's and this mornings incidents were timed within minutes of Adam coming home and getting up for work, respectively, like Maui was looking to attract someone's attention at a time when we were otherwise busy. As to other litter box behaviour, Sprout is a boisterous little brat with a sense of humour, and has had to be actively discouraged from ambushing other litter box users, which she seems to think is fun. But it's been over a year since we've caught her doing that and she prefers to assault Blue, who we've never had cause to suspect in any incidents more serious than, um, "hangers on" following her out of the box. And Panda is grumpy and will hassle Maui over food, or sit in a door and kindof dare him to walk past her - but again, that seems to have lessened and the toileting has gotten worse. We've tried a couple of different litters but I'm nervous about putting any other cats off the box, as we use wheat litter to avoid their and my own allergies to the clay dust. We've tried the boxes covered and uncovered. And I don't think they could possibly be *too* clean. I scoop at least once and sometimes twice a day, but with 4 cats somone will inevitably run right in and use it. I cannot add 4-boxes-plus-one to this apartment - it is physically too small. I've gotten to 3, and the third one will sit for days, unused by ANY of the cats, believe it or not. I've tried varying box heights, sizes, configurations and positions. I moved a box right over one of the first carpet messes - and he went right beside it. I moved it back and just cleaned the carpet, and he found a completely different spot to go. I have at times isolated Maui for days at a time with his own box in our spare bathroom. He will sometimes go a day or more without using the box, and when I let him out, he'll go on the carpet.... OR he'll go right to one of the other boxes and use it! At another time after isolation, he HAD been using the box in the bathroom, consistently for a few days. Then ran out and went on the carpet anyway. He screams the whole time he's in the bathroom so it is not feasible for him to live in there indefinitely. Blue also gets upset when he's locked away and screams OUTside the bathroom. I am getting close to the conclusion that he just can't cope with something about the dynamic here. I feel terrible about losing him, even though my brain knows that my vet will keep him as a clinic cat. I feel bad about separating him from Blue, too, but she will be OK without him - she is VERY people-attached and Maui is just a familiar pal to her but she'll ignore him if Adam or I am around and sometimes just hang out on her own regardless. She doesn't seem to miss him when he's not around, though she does cling for a bit when he comes back after an absence, then settle back to herself again. He might miss her more, as he's not as people-social. I'd rather get rid of the carpet but replacing the flooring in a 1500 sq foot rental we hope to leave in a year would not be feasible. The landlord would only replace with more carpet - at our expense - and if I have to do that I'm only doing it ONCE (and cleaning like hell to avoid that, anyway). *sigh*... he may have to resign himself to being a clinic cat. he will still be in a multi-cat place, with other *males* even but the vet claims she has well-sealed floors and lots of cleaning staff (her other cats are at her shop for the same reason, what's one more?) Thanks, Johanna Hmmm. Maybe your partner needs to carry treats/and or be "Feliway scented"? > I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner. > Maui appears to really seek out Adam's attention at times and then [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Johanna > Hiya - well, nice to know I'm at least not alone! > > I have indeed thought it is a territory, or territory/anxiety thing. Hi Johanna, It sounds as though you have indeed done just about everything possible to make things work. Thank you for posting your experience in such detail, it gives us a comprehensive picture of what is happening and makes it easier to come up with possible solutions. I have some thoughts which I hope are helpful. I agree with you that it is highly likely a combination of territorial issues plus anxiety (since both Blue and Maui exhibit fur-pulling behaviour as you mentioned in your first post, this is another sign of intense stress). The problem has been going on for quite some time and it does sound as though the best course of action would be to separate the cats, but I do not think that removing Maui and making him a clinic cat at your vet's will resolve the problem for him. He will still be stressed and while it is commendable that your vet is willing to accept "inappropriate" peeing at the clinic, he will still be unhappy. The stressors of other animals, animals in distress, people, men etc. will not have resolved and the comings and goings at a vet clinic are a lot more stressful than the situation Maui is in now. If this were my situation, I would try to find a quiet and gentle home for Blue *and* Maui with a single woman. I know, I know, it's not easy to re-home adult cats, but it can be done with time and patience and both you and your partner have demonstrated that you have tons of both. ...snipped... > There is definitely a two-and-two > dynamic. "Pecking order" is hard to peg, but wherever he is, I guess > he's not happy. He has moments of trying to challenge Panda, who I > think is really Top Cat here, and then other moments of letting teeny, > skittish little Blue push him away from his food and he's fine with > that. In the meantime, is it possible to create two territories in your home - one for each pair to reduce the stressors as much as possible, so that Maui can start feeling safer? > Maui and Blue, prior to my house, spent their entire lives in a one > bedroom apartment with one little old lady. They never saw other > animals and they had never seen *men*, and I have one of those too. ...snipped... > I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner. ...snipped... > I am getting close to the conclusion that he just can't cope with > something about the dynamic here. I feel terrible about losing him, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > after an absence, then settle back to herself again. He might miss her > more, as he's not as people-social. The dynamic between them as you describe it is the reason I would re-home them together. ...snipped... > *sigh*... he may have to resign himself to being a clinic cat. he will > still be in a multi-cat place, with other *males* even but the vet > claims she has well-sealed floors and lots of cleaning staff (her other > cats are at her shop for the same reason, what's one more?) See above why I do not think this is a good idea nor do I think it would be fair to Maui. While not the same situation, I can relate. I rescued a starving and very sick stray last year. She pulled through and metamorphosed into an affectionate, healthy, and playful kitty from an emaciated, scared, and skittish one. I was determined that with careful introductions things would be just fine between her and the resident kitties. Unfortunately, the dynamics between them were extremely stressed from the beginning. After months of trying just about everything, I had to continue keeping them segregated and finally came to the conclusion that she would be happier in a home as an only cat (she had been the only animal in her previous two homes). I interviewed umpteen potential adopters until I found exactly who I was looking for. Emma is now a happy and thriving cat and her new human adores her. It was very difficult to let her go, but I knew what she needed and that she deserved as stress-free a life as possible. I hope that you will reconsider placing her at your vet's. By word of mouth, asking everyone you know, placing posters (with photos of the two) in unusual places (for example, I used the message boards of several professional associations) and being very clear about what and who you are looking for, you will, in time, find someone wonderful for them. In the meantime, if it is possible in your home for them to have a territory of their own, things should settle to more tolerable levels for all concerned. I hope this helps. M. > Thanks, > > Johanna Actually, though, he lived at the vet for quite some time before I got him... and my adoption "contract" to which I agreed was, if there are any problems, he will go back to that vet. He has already lived there for an extended visit (> 2 weeks) during a particularly bad spell and exhibited NO inappropriate or stress behaviour while there. Since being with me in general he is healthier, fatter and more mellow than with his previous owner, and when visiting the vet he likes to tour around and hang out with the staff. Also - the lick dermatitis is allergic, or at least partly so. They had it in their previous home and living at the clinic and it responds immediately to a minimal dose of vetacortyl, clears up in a couple of days and stays cleared for months. Food changes would be best, but finicky and underweight Siamesees that they are, we haven't been able to find something they WILL eat that solves it. I'm not talking about dumping him in an uncaring clinic to be just one more stray underfoot. Dr. W. has known these cats since they were born. She had an agreement with a client to either re-home or take care of Maui and Blue, and was paid out of their former person's estate to do so. She and her staff are all female and Maui loves them. She lives in her clinic. Or, her clinic is in her house, we're sometimes not sure which it is! Cats, exams and surgeries downstairs, husband, 7 housecats a squirrel and I think a bird upstairs. Her clinic cats have their own room and the run of the reception area complete with leather sofas and a 6 x 3 x6 foot high cat jungle installation in a huge glassed in window that's a complete squirrel-watching entertainment centre. She regularly takes in, rehabilitates and shelters and adopts out unwanted cats in addition to her vet practice, expenses out of her own pocket, but the deal is they come back to her if they can't be lived with. She may re-home them if that's appropriate. I know he won't just be put down for being a problem. We shall see. She's asked if I can keep him through next weekend as she'd want to quarantine him as a re-admit regardless and her kennel is full right now. My man is attached enough to him to be reluctant to let him go despite the frustration, too. Unfortunately, our apartment is ppretty "open concept" except the bathrooms, so it may be back into the bathroom for a little time out for him. And another gallon of nature's miracle with a valium chaser for me! Thanks, Johanna >> I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here >> (can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > horrendous abouse history before I got him - the abuse was one of the > reasons he came to Cats Protection. This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get them trained right from the beginning. >> When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is >> where a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get > them trained right from the beginning. "used" cat? Freak. Signaturemonique > >> When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is > >> where a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Freak. Very nicely put, Monique. >>> When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is >>> where a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Freak. "Used cat" "Pre-owned" "Screwed up" "Uncivilized" "Space Kitty" and any other labels you find unpleasant to your PC senses. Ever see the movie "Used People", starring Shirley MacLaine? Does that title piss you off already? LOL > >>> When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is > >>> where a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Ever see the movie "Used People", starring Shirley MacLaine? Does that > title piss you off already? LOL Monique might not know that movie. She, like I, am a tad younger than dirt. > This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get them > trained right from the beginning./// My father wouldn't part with Robbie for all the tea in China, and I wouldn't make him. I don't regret adopting him for one single second. To see a scared, traumatised, frightened kitty blossom into a loved and pampered pet who is confident in himself to overcome his fears and terrors, and now see him spoiled rotten living in the lap of luxury, because of something *I* was able to do (i.e. adopt him) is THE most rewarding thing I could ever do. If anyone has done any training, it's been Robbie training my father how to pamper him. I'm glad I don't have your attitude - I've had years and years of pleasure and companionship from everyone of my *used* cats. Helen M >> This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get >> them trained right from the beginning./// [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Helen M Dear Helen. You have my attitude but loathe to ever express it. The context of my comment references taking on a "high effort" training project from a pound and what to do when you have "reached the end of your rope" (the title of this thread). Now your post is very touching, warm and fuzzy. But your rescue is unlike the original poster's. Your rescue "fit".... her's has not in spite of considerable effort. See the difference? > Now your post is very touching, warm and fuzzy. But your > rescue is unlike the original poster's. Your rescue "fit".... her's has not > in spite of considerable effort. See the difference? I'm so glad you found my post warm, touching and fuzzy. How about I talk about my other *used* cat, Pandora, who after 4 years wtill has major behaviour problems because of the fact she is semi-feral and was abused as a kitten. Or shall I tell you about Cleo, who had serious toileting problems when I first got her because hse had been ill for so long? I know, I could tell you about my feral sam, who was so spooky I couldn't handle him. None of my rescues "fit" as you call it. Every single one of them does however return affection in their own way. Tell you what, you have your perfect hallmark "new" kitty that you can train from scratch, and I'll stick to my "pre-used" rescued kitties who have their problems. Helen M >> Now your post is very touching, warm and fuzzy. But your >> rescue is unlike the original poster's. Your rescue "fit".... her's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > for so long? I know, I could tell you about my feral sam, who was so > spooky I couldn't handle him. When the book comes out in paperback and is a national best seller, I'll read your copy. ;^) > None of my rescues "fit" as you call it. In fact they DO fit because of your need to accomdate "project" kitties. Be honest. Such "projects" fill a need you have. > Every single one of them does > however return affection in their own way. Being recognized as the food and shelter source does command some respect. > Tell you what, you have > your perfect hallmark "new" kitty that you can train from scratch, > and I'll stick to my "pre-used" rescued kitties who have their > problems. > > Helen M Whatever, lady. Now you've drifted off into a holier than thou mode. Have a good day! > This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get them > trained right from the beginning. Gee Phillip, generalize much? Many many "second-hand" cats make lovely pets. As do dogs: http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0876057350/701-9139148-6349156 -L. >> This makes a case for NOT adopting a used cat. Get a new one, get >> them trained right from the beginning. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -L. Is it still too early in my tenure around here to post a bit of male sarcasm without punctuating with emoticons? Guess that's the case! ( |^D You know us guys always relate things to cars .... don't you? > Is it still too early in my tenure around here to post a bit of male > sarcasm without punctuating with emoticons? Guess that's the case! > ( |^D You know us guys always relate things to cars .... don't > you? I don't see anything male or female about this. I once posted something about how it's a good thing Oscar is cute, or she'd be out of here. I was joking, and I thought it was obvious, but Phil P. took me to task. Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally post here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about pets. A lot of the people who post here have seen some of the worst and most negligent sides of pet "ownership." In light of all of that ... yes, please do clarify when you're joking. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> Is it still too early in my tenure around here to post a bit of male >> sarcasm without punctuating with emoticons? Guess that's the case! >> ( |^D You know us guys always relate things to cars .... don't >> you? > > I don't see anything male or female about this. Well, get educated. ;^) > I once posted > something about how it's a good thing Oscar is cute, or she'd be out > of here. I was joking, and I thought it was obvious, but Phil P. > took me to task. "Phil P." and I have exchanged pleasantries where I subtly told him to go lick himself. ;^) > Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom > occasionally post here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes > about pets. A lot of the people who post here have seen some of the > worst and most negligent sides of pet "ownership." In light of all of > that ... yes, please do clarify when you're joking. Ok. But colorful and provocative terminology aside, I was NOT joking. >> Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally post >> here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about pets. A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ok. But colorful and provocative terminology aside, I was NOT > joking. Oh. Well, then, my original comment still stands. Freak. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >>> Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally post >>> here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about pets. A [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Freak. Sweetheart .... when you have a cogent thought treat it kindly. It's in a strange place. > >>> Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally post > >>> here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about pets. A [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > traipse off to practise the viola da gamba like the apotheosis of > grandiloquence that I am, you supercilious beings, you. Ta! >>>>> Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally >>>>> post here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Sweetheart .... when you have a cogent thought treat it kindly. >> It's in a strange place. NoonCat takes editorial license: >>Now pardon me whilst I finish my tea and >> biscuit and then traipse off to practise the viola da gamba like the >> apotheosis of grandiloquence that I am, you supercilious beings, >> you. Ta! > >>>>> Turns out there are a lot of people, some of whom occasionally > >>>>> post here, who really do have those sorts of attitudes about [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >> apotheosis of grandiloquence that I am, you supercilious beings, > >> you. Ta! My, you're sentient. For once. > Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing > this? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Johanna A truth in life is: Problems scale themselves to our maximum ability to solve them. You've met your match. You know it. You're environment is not agreeable with this particular furry food processor. Turn him in. One other thing. If your carpet is covering genuine wood floors, repeated pissing in any location WILL blacken the wood and make each wood strip shrink away from adjoining strips. This kind of damage was apparent in a neighbor's home when they changed their carpeting. About two thousand dollars worth of damage. > Hello, all.... > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing > this? I'm telling you, you've got one angry cat. I had a cat, Ari, who performed the same behavior you just described. He'd even do it right in front of me. The vet exam came out fine. Then the doc suggested that, since we'd moved to a new domicile, Ari had no place he could call his own. Two other pets (a cat and a dog) plus a new spouse had left him without his own territory. And he was very upset about it. So he was doing his part to ruin things for everyone--and doing it right where we could see him. At the vet's advice, we put him each night in an unoccupied room with his own litter box at one end and his food and water at the other. Then we'd shut the door. He'd howl and scratch to be let out, but we kept him in there all night long. After three weeks or so, he got the message that that was *his* room. Then he started going in of his own accord. Once he did that, the elimination problems ceased. Once in a while he'd start it again, but another week or so of nightly confinement to the room would put him back to rights. HTH. That's what I'll be doing for now. He loves his bathroom, too. He gets treats in there. He just hates being *alone* in there. If one or both of us is in there with him, he purrs like crazy and can't get enough petting and bonking. If I have a bath in there (it's the only one with a tub) he sits on the edge and talks about his day. If we leave him in there by himself, he howls. Was Ari siamese? I'm not a very light sleeper, but never did learn to sleep through howling siamese. I suppose I could sleep in the tub... :-) > That's what I'll be doing for now. He loves his bathroom, too. He > gets treats in there. He just hates being *alone* in there. If one or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Was Ari siamese? I'm not a very light sleeper, but never did learn to > sleep through howling siamese. I suppose I could sleep in the tub... No, just a somewhat noisy yellow tabby. > Was Ari siamese? I'm not a very light sleeper, but never did learn > to sleep through howling siamese. I suppose I could sleep in the > tub... All the hard surfaces in a bathroom make the sound carry much farther than it should, too ... I wonder if you could dampen the sound with blankets or something? No expert here; just a thought. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > Hello, all.... Assuming there is no organic cause here are a few ideas. My Oreo had a soiling problem which, knock on wood is gone. Try to eliminate stress especially from other cats. Don't let stray cats in. Try adding a third box in a spot where he likes to soil. Sometimes the location of your box is wrong. Try Cat Attract Litter. Sometimes a cat does not like the litter. Although it is not recommended to use punishment, the longer the habit continues the more difficult it will be to break so you cannot ignore any act of soiling. If you catch the cat soiling immediately use negative reaction such as water spray, loud voice. You can also hold the cat's face right onto the area of soiling for a couple of minutes to negatively associate with the soiling. You can do this even if you don't catch the cat in the act. Every time you ignore the soiling the behavior becomes more reinforced so you have to negate this reinforcement. Adam >If you catch the cat soiling immediately >use negative reaction such as water [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >behavior becomes more reinforced so you >have to negate this reinforcement. To the OP: IGNORE the above advice. Not only is it incorrect and guaranteed to cause your cat more stress, it is also abusive. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >> If you catch the cat soiling immediately >> use negative reaction such as water [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Megan Agreed. Smearing the cat's nose in it's own feces doesn't have the effect desired by the owner. ...snipped... > Although it is not recommended to use punishment, the longer the habit continues the > more difficult it will be to break so you cannot ignore any act of soiling. If you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > don't catch the cat in the act. Every time you ignore the soiling the behavior > becomes more reinforced so you have to negate this reinforcement. While I agree that the longer the behaviour lasts, the more difficult it is to undo as it can become a habit, the point is to find out *why* the "inappropriate" behaviour (from our point of view) is occurring rather than punish him or her for communicating in one of the ways s/he knows how that something is amiss. Punishment as you suggest only serves to increase the already existing stress for the cat and merely creates fear and more anxiety. It does absolutely nothing to resolve the reason for the behaviour and is completely devoid of caring and compassion for the animal. M. > Adam > ...snipped... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > M. Rubbish. Compassion is the driving force behind "training." You do NOT care if you tolerate bad behavior until / if ever you figure out the "why" of a behavior. It does not matter "why." Write a new script featuring the new behavior and teach it. It seems to me that you are another one of those who fails to differentiate "training" from "punishment." Punishment is using the cat for football practice or a Piñata. Training is coating electrical cords with foul tasting materials so the cat stops chewing on them or training the cat to hop up on the people toilet to relieve himself. > Rubbish. Compassion is the driving force behind "training." You do NOT > care if you tolerate bad behavior until / if ever you figure out the "why" > of a behavior. It does not matter "why." Write a new script featuring the > new behavior and teach it. Following your logic, it would not matter whether the reason for the "inappropriate" behaviour is medical or not. It would not matter whether there are stressors causing the behaviour which should be reduced or eliminated. Sounds to me that what matters is all about making you happy, not the cat. > It seems to me that you are another one of those who fails to differentiate > "training" from "punishment." The punishment strategies Adam suggested for "inappropriate" elimination: water spray, loud voice, and holding the cat's face over the soiled area have absolutely nothing to do with "training" and demonstrate a lack of understanding of feline behaviour, feline communication, and the consequences of the suggested punishments. >Punishment is using the cat for football > practice or a Piñata. No, this is abuse. >Training is coating electrical cords with foul > tasting materials so the cat stops chewing on them Yes, this is training and not at all analogous with the strategies suggested above. > or training the cat to > hop up on the people toilet to relieve himself. While this may be training, it also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of feline instincts and behaviour. M. >>Punishment is using the cat for football >> practice or a Pi¤ata. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > While this may be training, it also demonstrates a complete lack > of understanding of feline instincts and behaviour. All of your advice is great. Something struck me while reading Johanna's dilema that something more is going on (OBVIOUSLY!!!), but I just can't describe what I'm thinking. I know that Sherry had problems with one of hers, and had to let her cat (can't remember which one. Frank?) use towels on the bathroom floor and just launder them frequently. Another poster used newspaper in the litterbox. Yet another just used a bathmat in the litterbox (this was recently) because the cat would only go on a bathmat. I had one who would always go on clothes left on the floor but that was easy to remedy, and I just didn't leave clothes on the floor. All this just reminds me that some cats are just impossible to "train". They aren't wired like us. Something in their wild nature doesn't make sense of litterboxes and the stuff we try to pass off as a toilet. Maybe Johanna could try just plain dirt in the box? It's messy as hell (had to do that with a neuter/release situation here with one stray/feral cat). I wish Johanna the best in whatever she decides is best. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields >>> Punishment is using the cat for football >>> practice or a Pi¤ata. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I wish Johanna the best in whatever she decides is best. Cats are trainable. Some much more than others. All we have to do is get the Bengal owners roused again to prove it. Smarter cats can be toilet trained, trained to fetch things, trained to walk on a leash, trained to run to an open car door and hop in, trained to yak furballs only in one place in the house, trained to accept claw clipping, etc. Others ... take months just to find their butts without help. And let us not overlook owners who are simply not up to the task of training. There are some of those here. > Cats are trainable. Some much more than others. Key words here. "Some more than others". Obviously OP's cat isn't as trainable as others, or there is some other issue. There's a reason for it. Can't dismiss the fact that what works for most doesn't work for hers. And her cat shouldn't be given up on, even if it seems all has been tried. I can't say I've been in that situation because as I said, my problem with inappropriate elimination was solved by being tidy. All we have to > do is get the Bengal owners roused again to prove it. Smarter > cats can be toilet trained, trained to fetch things, trained to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > who are simply not up to the task of training. There are some > of those here. You're snarky and boring and mildly entertaining. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields >> Cats are trainable. Some much more than others. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > You're snarky and boring and mildly entertaining. My post is about trainable cats and secondarily, owners who just are not up to the task of training. May I return the 'compliment' by saying you are a little condescending. >> Rubbish. Compassion is the driving force behind "training." You do >> NOT care if you tolerate bad behavior until / if ever you figure out [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Following your logic, it would not matter whether the reason for the > "inappropriate" behaviour is medical or not. You don't follow the logic. Animals die because owners believe themselves qualified to figure out the "why" of a behavior. It's up to the owner to quickly and accurately discern medical from psychological. Howver misplaced, a healthy BM precludes a medical condition. Nobody has identified other than ... a healthy but misplaced turd. > It would not matter > whether there are stressors causing the behaviour which should be > reduced or eliminated. Sounds to me that what matters is all about > making you happy, not the cat. Since you used the word "all", your argument is that of a fanatic. How much misbehavior will you suffer before you start feeling sorry for yourself? Where's the human dignity in suffering a house wreaking of urine and feces? Hmmm? I know for a fact there are people out there who have such low self esteem that they come to worship their pets and cater to every percieved whin. Pathetic. >> It seems to me that you are another one of those who fails to > differentiate [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > M. > You don't follow the logic. Animals die because owners believe themselves > qualified to figure out the "why" of a behavior. You are right, your logic does not follow. >It's up to the owner to > quickly and accurately discern medical from psychological. Ah, so it *is* important to discern the "why" of a behaviour. >Howver misplaced, > a healthy BM precludes a medical condition. Nobody has identified other > than ... a healthy but misplaced turd. So a behaviour that occurs because of stress is not worthy of the same caring and attentive inquiry as one based on a medical condition? Why not? > > It would not matter > > whether there are stressors causing the behaviour which should be > > reduced or eliminated. Sounds to me that what matters is all about > > making you happy, not the cat. > > Since you used the word "all", your argument is that of a fanatic. Hardly, but be my guest, take the "all" away and my view still stands. >How much > misbehavior will you suffer before you start feeling sorry for yourself? Ah, but you see, if one attempts to find the "why" diligently and if one either gets assistance from a feline specialist or is experienced enough to sleuth it out on one's own *and* is compassionate (I know, I know, a red flag word for you), the situation does not get to the point you describe above and below. > Where's the human dignity in suffering a house wreaking of urine and feces? A house reeking of urine and feces is a house with humans who are either uncaring or uneducated in terms of cat care. > Hmmm? I know for a fact there are people out there who have such low self > esteem that they come to worship their pets and cater to every percieved > whin. Pathetic. Once again, your logic does not follow and your propensity for labelling people makes *you* sound extreme. M. snip >> It's up to the owner to >> quickly and accurately discern medical from psychological. > > Ah, so it *is* important to discern the "why" of a behaviour. I see we are separated by a common language. I've met those who think if only they can out psyche the cat, that they can fix the cat. What is incumbent upon the cat owner is to quickly discern behavior issues from medical and act accordingly. Figuring out the "why" is secondary and if medical, better dealt with by a medical professional. Understand better? The rest of your post is mildly provocative drivel, "M". > > Ah, so it *is* important to discern the "why" of a behaviour. > > I see we are separated by a common language. I've met those who think if > only they can out psyche the cat, that they can fix the cat. Apparently, because we disagree, you choose to misinterpret what I have stated. Or, perhaps you are not able or willing to *hear* what is being said because of the views and values you have demonstrated in your posts. I will try again. Attempting to discern what is causing a particular behaviour, which to those who share their lives with animals with an attitude of caring and compassion indicates a sign of distress, is not about one's ability to "out psyche" or "fix" the cat. It is about creating a feline-friendly environment in which the particular animal is as content as possible. >What is > incumbent upon the cat owner is to quickly discern behavior issues from > medical and act accordingly. Figuring out the "why" is secondary and if > medical, better dealt with by a medical professional. Understand better? > > The rest of your post is mildly provocative drivel, "M". Also apparent in your posts is your propensity to dismiss with derision that with which you do not agree. It is unfortunate that you choose to react defensively rather than learn something and be open to the people in this world you label "PC" and "dysfunctional" who have an exquisite sensitivity for animals, human and non. People who would not label animals that come with challenges as "used" any more than they would equate humans with inanimate objects. M. >>> Ah, so it *is* important to discern the "why" of a behaviour. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Apparently, because we disagree, you choose to misinterpret what I > have stated. snip Opening with the word "Apparently ..." tells me I was correct in my assessment of our communication, setting aside all that followed. Yes, you choose to misinterpret for reasons familiar only to you. >>> Ah, so it *is* important to discern the "why" of a behaviour. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "fix" the cat. It is about creating a feline-friendly environment in which > the particular animal is as content as possible. It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the animal that the behaviour is unacceptable. For instance, one of our cats will strike at me when she gets overexcited during a petting session. When this happened, I would tell her no, remove her from the bed and then ignore her for a period of time. I also tried to identify what I was doing to trigger the behaviour and be more aware of her body language during a petting session so that she didn't have the urge to strike. What ended up happening is not only did the frequency of striking decrease, but the severity has as well. She sometimes still does it, but now it's with less force and she keeps her claws sheathed. I also will make her sit or give her some toys to derail whatever it is that's going on in her brain that's causing her to build up to a strike. The combination of training and awareness has been extremely effective. bisky > It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / > unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > behaviour and be more aware of her body language during a petting > session so that she didn't have the urge to strike. It occurred to you that the "strike" was the cat communicating a desire to cease petting her .... and that you might be a little dense about picking up the clue? My last cat would communicate his desire to stop stroking him with a polite nip. I soon figured out this warning nip would be preceded by a cessation in purring. Clue. No purring ceased ... stop stroking. "Enough already" from the cat. snip > The combination of training and awareness has been extremely > effective. > bisky You are a bit brighter and observant than some others here. >> It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / >> unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to cease petting her .... and that you might be a little dense about > picking up the clue? That is irrelevant. Striking is an inappropriate way to communicate with humans. She can find another way to communicate her wishes to me, but she cannot strike or bite me or anyone else. The communication is fine, the method is unacceptable. b >>> It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / >>> unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > That is irrelevant. It's the WHOLE POINT, silly. > Striking is an inappropriate way to communicate > with humans. However unpleasant the "communication", what is ... is. So I see this as a two fold problem. The Human needs to become more in tune with this particular puss and the Cat needs to be taught some other course of action to convey the message "Stop fussing with me." Do you disagree? >She can find another way to communicate her wishes to me, > but she cannot strike or bite me or anyone else. The communication is > fine, the method is unacceptable. > > b Why should she? You have a cat that resorts to physical measures to convey the message because you are a little dense and a little intense, for her liking. LOL But don't escalate this into a bitchfight. For what it's worth, some people stroke and scratch a cat with their fingernails while other just rub with the tips of their fingers. Try changing your style and definitly shorten your petting time. >>>> It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / >>>> unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > It's the WHOLE POINT, silly. No, the why is irrelevant. It is unacceptable behaviour and she cannot communicate with humans that way. But I come from the large animal bit of the world where it doesn't matter why horse/cow/whatever decides to invade your space, they can kill you without meaning to. >> Striking is an inappropriate way to communicate >> with humans. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of action to convey the message "Stop fussing with me." Do you > disagree? Did you read what I originally wrote? I think if you read what I originally wrote you will find your answer. >> She can find another way to communicate her wishes to me, >> but she cannot strike or bite me or anyone else. The communication is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why should she? Because that is not acceptable for her to do. It is not an appropriate way to communicate with humans. She's smart and she is completely capable of learning how to communicate with us in ways that don't involve inappropriate aggression. > You have a cat that resorts to physical measures to convey the message > because you are a little dense and a little intense, for her liking. > LOL But don't escalate this into a bitchfight. It's not a bitchfight. It's simple rules. Similarly, she's not allowed on the table or the counters as long as a human is around (I'm not dumb enough to expect that they stay off the table when someone's not around, although neither cat gets up there often). She's not allowed to claw the furniture, a rule we even enforce with the feral who comes inside sometimes. As to the 'petting sessions are so long' I don't believe that because it hasn't always been triggered by me petting her. It's very clear she's getting *excited* and happy and droolly and she starts moving around and won't settle ... and then those ears go back and I know that we need to stop the disconnect between her forebrain and her hindbrain before the hindbrain takes over and she does something her forebrain knows she shouldn't. One of my responses was to teach her to sit on command. When she starts getting too excited, she has to sit if she wants more pets or interactions with the human. The whole process between me saying "sit" and her actually doing it makes her sort stuff out and re-engage her forebrain and calm down and everyone's happy. I use the terms 'forebrain' and 'hindbrain' very loosely in this post. They are a descriptor of her different behavious. Forebrain are those behaviours we taught her after trapping her and moving her inside. Hindbrain are those instinctive behaviours and the ones she learned as a feral kitten. As a side affect, she's learned that if she can make the humans pet her by sitting next to them. bisky >>>>> It strikes me that one can look for the causes of an unwanted / >>>>> unacceptable behaviour at the same time as one communicates to the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > No, the why is irrelevant. It is unacceptable behaviour and she cannot > communicate with humans that way. Oh? Does she "communicate" with *just* *you* in this physical manner? > But I come from the large animal bit of the world where it doesn't > matter why horse/cow/whatever decides to invade your space, they can > kill you without meaning to. So are you projecting this history of yours onto a small animal? snip > One of my responses was to teach her to sit on command. When she > starts getting too excited, she has to sit if she wants more pets or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > bisky IF? What's the rest of that thought? > ...snipped... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > M. You need to look for causes and stressors and try to eliminate those, but once a behavior becomes a habit (assuming there is no medical cause) it can perpetuate even with removal of the original cause, as cats in particular are creatures of habit. If you ignore the episodes of soiling and just clean up the behavior will become a habit and you're doomed to failure. IMO. My cat Oreo that I adopted was an abandoned, declawed cat that was soiling when I first got her. She also soiled a couple of years later after I adopted a kitten. Both times I've been able to train her out of this with the methods I mentioned (not just negative behavior mod). The number of times that I actually had to use the negative behavior mod was very small but each time it helped. Adam > You need to look for causes and stressors and try to eliminate those, > but once a behavior becomes a habit (assuming there is no medical > cause) it can perpetuate even with removal of the original cause, as > cats in particular are creatures of habit. > If you ignore the episodes of soiling and just clean up the behavior > will become a habit and you're doomed to failure. IMO. Agreed. > My cat Oreo that I adopted was an abandoned, declawed cat that was > soiling when I first got her. She also soiled a couple of years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > negative behavior mod was very small but each time it helped. > Adam In the ears of some here, what corrective measures you took will be equated to shaving the cat bald and tying it up outside in the snow. Really. snip > Although it is not recommended to use punishment, the longer the > habit continues the more difficult it will be to break so you cannot > ignore any act of soiling. If you catch the cat soiling immediately > use negative reaction such as water spray, loud voice. You can also > hold the cat's face right onto the area of soiling for a couple of > minutes to negatively associate with the soiling. While I agree with you (rebuke inappropriate behavior AS it is happening or within a minute of the transgression), you're likely to get wails of rebuke from the dysfunctionally compassionate members here. ;-) Swift kitty relocation whilst urinating gets the message across. I did this single handed by grabbing a handful of skin between the shoulders and a rag in the other hand positioned under the tail. Deposit cat in litter box. Never took very many of those "moments" to get the message across. > You can do this even if you don't catch the cat in the act. Unlike dogs, cats need immediate situation correction to "get it." It may take a dozen times for a particularly stupid or angry puss. > Every time you ignore soiling the behavior becomes more reinforced so you > have to negate this reinforcement. > Adam NO sh.t! LOL > Adam Helberg wrote: snip > >> You can do this even if you don't catch the cat in the act. > > Unlike dogs, cats need immediate situation correction to "get it." > It may take a dozen times for a particularly stupid or angry puss. This doesn't work for dogs, either. Just don't shove an animal's nose in its own waste. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> Adam Helberg wrote: snip >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This doesn't work for dogs, either. Just don't shove an animal's nose > in its own waste. Firstly, you don't have any ideas just criticism. Secondly, you don't necessarily have to shove the animals nose *into* it's waste, and you *don't* smear the waste on the animal, as someone else said. You can hold the cat's face close the waste to make this an unpleasant experience. You are trying to get a negative association with soiling outside the box. If you do nothing the behavior gets reinforced--each time the cat soils outside the box it feels rewarded and the habit is strengthened. It' important to try to remove stresses that can cause the cat to soil. If you combine removing stress and behavior modification the system should work, and once the cat starts using the box again that behavior gets reinforced and you should be on your way. Adam >> Adam Helberg wrote: snip >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This doesn't work for dogs, either. Just don't shove an animal's nose > in its own waste. A notable difference concerning dogs is that this kind of negative experience (rubbing their nose in the poop) sometimes results in a dog that will eat its own misplaced excrement (or vomit) so as to hide the evidence that would lead to another unpleasant rebuke by the owner. Let's not mention that TV commercial where the dog drinks out of the toilet bowl and then runs over to the door and licks its owner's face (the woman unknowing). Not that I'm a big proponent of meds, but why did you stop using the prozac and clomicalm? I have a cat that sprays, definitely territorial, and he has been on prozac which has really helped curb his spraying. It takes about 4 weeks to see the full effect of the meds. Sounds like if the meds helped, you may want to keep him on it. Beats cleaning up the messes on the floor. Also, there is a litter called "Cat Attract" which is suppose to help inappropriate elimination problems. I have never used it myself but it may be worth trying. Sue > Hello, all.... > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > With a Furrsome (presently) Foursome of Panda-ov-Toes, Sprout!, Maui > and Blue... > Also, there is a litter called "Cat Attract" which is suppose to help > inappropriate elimination problems. I have never used it myself but > it may be worth trying. > > Sue Why would *you* use a litterbox instead of a toilet? ;-) > Hello, all.... > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > With a Furrsome (presently) Foursome of Panda-ov-Toes, Sprout!, Maui > and Blue... Something else to add. If you buy a bag of Cat Attract litter it comes with a very good booklet on this problem. Adam >Hello, all.... > >It's been a couple years since I've done more than occasionally read >here (I'm an old, old, OLD timer from when there was just >rec.pets.cats, though I recognize so few names now). Ha, I remember Panda-ov-Toes. >I am posting in a last-ditch cry for help. After years of being the >"cat therapist" all my friends turn to... I may have been beat. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >litterbox. He does... but he also uses the apartment carpet. And he's >launched his latest escalation of this behaviour recently. Why is it frequently the super-intelligent, high-strung, people- oriented, highly-vocal Siamese who does this? I've been through it with two, run all the tests, did everything imaginable and the solution finally came down to a new home. I just have too many cats coming and going, I guess. Peekaboo would pee in front of me on the bed and sometimes on me. I got so I would carry her to the litterbox and tell her to pee and she would. Of course if I waited too long or was gone, she peed on the bed instead. I finally found a home for her on trial with a couple of guys who thought her behavior was a hoot. Now she can be prima donna only cat. She is quite happy, they are happy and the behavior has ceased. Geordie also peed all over. I never did quite figure out why. He was born here to a mother whom I still have. Confine him to a separate room or cage and he howled non-stop. Again, a new and quieter home where he could have ALL the attention seemed to be the answer. Good luck, BarB > Why is it frequently the super-intelligent, high-strung, people- > oriented, highly-vocal Siamese who does this? I've been through it [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > BarB You sleep alone, don't you. LOL Wouldn't be surprised if you lived alone too! > Hello, all.... > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > With a Furrsome (presently) Foursome of Panda-ov-Toes, Sprout!, Maui and > Blue... Sounds like you have tried everything except the squirt bottle. Of course, this would only be used if caught in the act.MLB |
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