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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2005Nuetering
I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals also but I wanted to hear your comments on what age to fix a male kitten. My breeder is willing to keep him (my Siberian kitten) and have him nuetered for me but it means him keeping him another two months and I don't really want to give up that time with him. I have been picking up bits and pieces about some vets claiming that earlier nuetering is less traumatic for the kitten. Anyone heard anything about that. I am worried about caring for him aftre the surgery how to keep him from running around and injuring himself. I had my Golden Retriever done but by the time he was done he was already pretty well trained and a bit easier to handle that I think the kitten will be. Thanks in advance Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" >I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the >most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals also >but I wanted to hear your comments on what age to fix a male kitten. >My breeder is willing to keep him (my Siberian kitten) and have him >nuetered for me but it means him keeping him another two months and I >don't really want to give up that time with him. A kitten can be neutered by early spay/neuter by the time he's 2 pounds. Ask your breeder if her vet does early spay/neuter, and if not, start looking around where you live for a vet that will. By the time he's ready to come home (12-16 weeks) he should be more than ready and you can just take him off to your vet. >I have been picking up bits and pieces about some vets claiming that >earlier nuetering is less traumatic for the kitten. Anyone heard >anything about that. I am worried about caring for him aftre the >surgery how to keep him from running around and injuring himself. One of the advantages to early altering is that they bounce back so fast. It's really a very minor surgery, and I wouldn't worry too much about keeping him quiet. None of my boys had a period of enforced inactivity, and they're all just fine. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > >I have been picking up bits and pieces about some vets claiming that > >earlier nuetering is less traumatic for the kitten. Anyone heard [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > too much about keeping him quiet. None of my boys had a period of > enforced inactivity, and they're all just fine. I had Pudge spayed shortly after I'd gotten her and she'd gone into heat (and come out of it). The veterinarians estimated her age at 8-12 months when I first brought her in, so by the time of spaying she was probably a month or so older. When I picked her up after the surgery they said she might be reclusive for a while and to leave her be. So I brought her home (feeling horribly guilty because she was crying piteously, although in hindsight I think it was less from pain and more from being outside -- I don't think she'd liked life on the streets -- and having been separated from me) and put her under my bed as the quietest place in my shared apartment. Within five minutes she'd come out to the living room. So I put her back under the bed, telling her, "No, you're supposed to want to hide." Within five minutes, she'd come back out again. After three or four times of this, I learned one of my first lessons of cat behaviour; they're unpredictable AND you can't make them do what they're supposed to do!  Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ > >I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the > >most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals also [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > time he's ready to come home (12-16 weeks) he should be more than > ready and you can just take him off to your vet. Do you remember a certain poster who used to argue against early s/n? Tho I never did pay much attention to anything else he said, I always wondered about this...he claimed that, in a male, neutering before 6 months was detrimental to the urinary tract growth and would cause problems in males later. Do you know what the latest take on that is? Does there seem to be anything at all to substantiate it? Sherry >>> I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the >>> most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Sherry I have had males neutered anywhere from 3 months to 10 months. In thinking back, the ONLY ones that had a urinary problem in their lives were those clipped before 5 months. But ... those same cats preferred a dry food diet too. I would not clip males until I heard that first yowl by the back door "I know she's out there and she wants ME!!!" >Do you remember a certain poster who used to argue against early s/n? Mmmmm. Not offhand. >Tho I never did pay much attention to anything else he said, I always >wondered about this...he claimed that, in a male, neutering before 6 >months was detrimental to the urinary tract growth and would cause >problems in males later. Do you know what the latest take on that is? >Does there seem to be anything at all to substantiate it? There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that claim. Dr Susan Little has wonderful information on ESN (and a ton of other stuff) on her website. Here's the link to the ESN studies -- http://www.catvet.homestead.com/EarlyAlter2.html If you have some time, I strongly recommend reading through the rest of the site -- some great stuff there. She travels all over the world to speak about feline health and ESN. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > he claimed that, in a male, neutering before 6 > >months was detrimental to the urinary tract growth and would cause > >problems in males later. Do you know what the latest take on that is? > >Does there seem to be anything at all to substantiate it? > > There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that claim. But have there been any studies, with controlled groups, targeting such? If so, I'd love to see them. Maybe I can get a new article about ESN out of this. :) It would be very hard to prove correlation without extensive studies with controlled groups, since so many other factors also influence UT problems. Even with controlled groups, there's no accounting for genetics, but at least you'd be able to rule out environmental things like dry vs wet food. Also, the pros for ESN in general (esp. in regards to "bulk" neuters, such as at shelters) might still outweigh slight increases in probability of UT problems later in life. If we had a better idea of numbers, it might end up a recommendation for individual people to wait until 5-6 months (i.e. people buying from breeders), but that shelters should go ahead and do it, you know? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Synonym: the word you use in place of a word you can't spell. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> he claimed that, in a male, neutering before 6 >> >months was detrimental to the urinary tract growth and would cause [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >so, I'd love to see them. Maybe I can get a new article about ESN out of >this. :) "In the University of Florida study (Stubbs et al, 1996), urethral pressure profilometry revealed no adverse effects on urethral function in cats from early altering. Urethral diameters were similar in the cats of all 3 groups. The penis could be fully extruded in all neutered cats in this study. The external genitalia of male and female cats in both age groups remained infantile compared to the intact cats. In another study in early-altered cats at the University of Minnesota (Root, Johnston, Johnston, Olson, 1996), researchers found that there was no difference among the same 3 groups of cats in urethral diameter (both pre-prostatic and penile). The researchers also found that complete penile extrusion was possible in all the control intact cats at 22 months of age. However, complete extrusion was possible in only 60% of the cats altered at 7 months and in none of the cats altered at 7 weeks. The balanopreputial fold is an androgen-dependent membrane that connects the preputial mucosa to the penile mucosa at birth. The longterm significance of incomplete penile extrusion is unknown." (http://www.catvet.homestead.com/EarlyAlter3.html) Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > "The longterm significance of incomplete penile > extrusion is unknown." > (http://www.catvet.homestead.com/EarlyAlter3.html) See, that bugs me a little. But the diameter is the most important thing, right? As long as the diameter is the same with early alters, it shouldn't affect blockages. Do altered males ever get erections, anyway? I can't see there being an issue with that, and if there is, I can't see it affecting the UT much. Maybe another health issue, but not the UT blockages I was thinking about. Thanks for the link. I'm going to peruse it more later, when I get home. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Support your local medical examiner: die strangely! http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> "The longterm significance of incomplete penile >> extrusion is unknown." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > affect blockages. > Do altered males ever get erections, anyway? Yes. Rusty would sometimes make a point of showing his ability to "get it up" in front of visitors even in his last year of life. LOL Rusty was not neutered until 9 months. >> "The longterm significance of incomplete penile >> extrusion is unknown." >> (http://www.catvet.homestead.com/EarlyAlter3.html) > >See, that bugs me a little. However, you'll note that the majority of cats altered at the 'traditional' age had incomplete extrusion as well. One could reasonably make the assumption that if there was a longterm significance, we'd have seen it already. >But the diameter is the most important thing, right? Yes. And that's what anti-ESN people say is affected. >Do altered males ever get erections, anyway? Yes, cats do masturbate. :) And they also 'unsheathe' for cleaning. >I can't see there being an issue >with that, and if there is, I can't see it affecting the UT much. Maybe >another health issue, but not the UT blockages I was thinking about. I agree. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > "In the University of Florida study (Stubbs et al, 1996), > urethral pressure profilometry revealed no adverse effects on urethral > function in cats from early altering. Urethral diameters were similar > in the cats of all 3 groups. The penis could be fully extruded in all > neutered cats in this study. The external genitalia of male and female > cats ... Female cats have *external* genitalia? This study already looks suspect. > > "In the University of Florida study (Stubbs et al, 1996), > > urethral pressure profilometry revealed no adverse effects on urethral [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Female cats have *external* genitalia? Well, female humans do -- the vulva. Is that the same term for feline anatomy? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >>> "In the University of Florida study (Stubbs et al, 1996), >>> urethral pressure profilometry revealed no adverse effects on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Well, female humans do -- the vulva. Is that the same term for feline > anatomy? Forgive me but, I haven't seen one of those is a while either. Wife doesn't show it off like she used to. > > "In the University of Florida study (Stubbs et al, 1996), > > urethral pressure profilometry revealed no adverse effects on urethral [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Female cats have *external* genitalia? This study already looks suspect. Pssst .... Phillip .... your wife does too! :) > I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the > most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals also > but I wanted to hear your comments on what age to fix a male kitten. 8-12 weeks. There are more than 30 years of research and studies documenting the safety and advantages of early-age neutering. Here're a few: http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/early.html http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/ope/ivb/spay-neu.htm http://www.catvet.homestead.com/EarlyAlter.html http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/early-spay-neuter.html http://cats.about.com/cs/spayneuter/a/earlyneuter.htm http://www.cfhs.ca/Programs/HumaneEducation/GeneralPublic/EarlyAgeSpay/index.htm http://www.netcat.org/symposium/early-neuter-spay.html http://www.bestfriends.org/nmhp/resources/juvenilespayneuter.htm > There are more than 30 years of research and studies documenting the > safety [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > http://www.bestfriends.org/nmhp/resources/juvenilespayneuter.htm Great. Now how about posting an equal number of arguments against the practice of early alteration. > > There are more than 30 years of research and studies documenting the > > safety [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > http://cats.about.com/cs/spayneuter/a/earlyneuter.htm http://www.cfhs.ca/Programs/HumaneEducation/GeneralPublic/EarlyAgeSpay/index.htm > > http://www.netcat.org/symposium/early-neuter-spay.html > > > > http://www.bestfriends.org/nmhp/resources/juvenilespayneuter.htm > > Great. Now how about posting an equal number of arguments against the > practice of early alteration. There aren't any. All the myths and concerns about early-age neutering have been debunked and refuted by >35 years of studies and clinical practice. Many vets oppose early-age neutering simply because of their unfamiliarity with surgery and anesthesia on pediatric cats (and dogs). EAN wasn't taught in vet schools until fairly recently- even though its been practiced for >35 years on cats and dogs and for >50 years on farm animals. Also, some people are just plain squeamish about surgery on young kittens. A more rational explanation for their opposition just doesn't exist. >>> There are more than 30 years of research and studies documenting the >>> safety [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > kittens. A more rational explanation for their opposition just > doesn't exist. Is this the point where somebody brings up mountin' oysters? > I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the > most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals also [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, > SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" Don't let them keep the kitten another 2 months. I worked for a high-volume feline specialty hospital and we did early spay/neuter all the time. There are tons of research papers indicating it is absolutley safe. Your kitty has to be two pounds, though, (for anesthesia) so that usually means at least 8-10 weeks old. Call around and find a vet that will do it for you. Have the breeder drop him off and you can pick him up. :) good luck, -L. >> I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the >> most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >good luck, >-L. I should have mentioned that the breeder is in Oklahoma and I am in Wisconsin. Philip I think it was you who mentioned waiting until he shows signs of wanting to mate what are the odds of him spraying before yowling which obviously I would like to keep away from. Brad >>> I didn't do a search on this particular topic because I wanted the >>> most up to date information. I will be calling some professionals [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Brad Rusty was taught early the consequences of going outside the box. He was using the box as soon as he could climb over the edge to get into the box ... 5 weeks. >Rusty was taught early the consequences of going outside the box. He was >using the box as soon as he could climb over the edge to get into the box >... 5 weeks. consequences???? soft >> Rusty was taught early the consequences of going outside the box. He >> was using the box as soon as he could climb over the edge to get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > soft You need to know that I acquired Rusty as either tossed by some joker or a wandered off from a ferul litter. He was 2-3 weeks old (no reflection in eyes at night ... night vision not yet developed). He had no indoor socializing to a box. Zip. So he had to be taught .... several times where to relieve himself. At that stage, I could have taught him to pee in shoe for all that goes. LOL > Rusty was taught early the consequences of going outside the box. He was > using the box as soon as he could climb over the edge to get into the box > ... 5 weeks. That's different than spraying. You cannot train an intact cat not to spray. And a cat shopuld never be punished for inappropriate elimination - especially a kitten that isn't properly litter trained yet. -L. >> Rusty was taught early the consequences of going outside the box. He >> was using the box as soon as he could climb over the edge to get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -L. No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As for "inappropriate elimination" ... we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. Teach 'em when they're small so little errors don't become habits. > No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As for > "inappropriate elimination" ... we'll just have to agree to disagree on that > point. Teach 'em when they're small so little errors don't become habits. You do understand, don't you, that kittens have to be trained by their mothers to use a litter box - that they do not automatically know what to do? But that kittens will willingly use a litterbox if they can find it and understand what it is used for? And you do understand that well over 95% of inappropriate elimination issues are medical in origin - that the cat is sick? I cannot imagine punishing an animal for inappropriate elimination. It is more than likely to have the reverse effect. -L. >> No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As for > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to do? But that kittens will willingly use a litterbox if they can > find it and understand what it is used for? Lyn, do scroll back a post or two and read how I found Rusty. I was the momma cat but I was not about to squat down in the litter box and "show" him. We had a lady from our church visit. She walked in the back door and noticed the litter box. "Oh, you have a cat?" she said with disdain. I replied, "No, that's for guests." > And you do understand that well over 95% of inappropriate elimination > issues are medical in origin - that the cat is sick? Rubbish. A healthy steamy turd misplaced does not fit that explanation. Sorry. > I cannot imagine punishing an animal for inappropriate elimination. > It is more than likely to have the reverse effect. > > -L. Ah yes. Toxically compassionate women usually leap to training=punishment when they hear the word "training" from a man. I outlined for you how yak furball yak training occurred. Litter training was similar. It works. > > And you do understand that well over 95% of inappropriate elimination > > issues are medical in origin - that the cat is sick? > > Rubbish. A healthy steamy turd misplaced does not fit that explanation. > Sorry. Nah, usually in those cases, the human hasn't bothered to scoop the box recently. Though we've seen cases of cats with bad worms (yes, medical, I know) that wouldn't use the box until the worms were cleared up. ~J >>> And you do understand that well over 95% of inappropriate >>> elimination issues are medical in origin - that the cat is sick? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ~J One thing everyone here should consider when reading the advice of veterinarians is .... these professionals have a proctologist's view of pet care because that what they see, day in, day out. > >>> And you do understand that well over 95% of inappropriate > >>> elimination issues are medical in origin - that the cat is sick? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > veterinarians is .... these professionals have a proctologist's view of pet > care because that what they see, day in, day out. Oh yes, that's true. I'm sure it makes much more sense to listen to you. >> No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As for > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to do? But that kittens will willingly use a litterbox if they can > find it and understand what it is used for? We trapped feral kittens at 6 - 8 weeks and they have never eliminated outside the litterbox. Momma certainly didn't teach them, and we just put the box in the taming cage with them and they started using it and have been great with it ever since. bisky >>> No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As >>> for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > bisky Oh so .... you "trained" them to use the box by confining them to a "taming cage" until they got the message. Why you cruel, punitive, controlling beast! Those kittens will be scared for life for not having been left to run free about the house crapping where they pleased. (sarcasm). >>>> No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As >>>> for [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > having been left to run free about the house crapping where they > pleased. (sarcasm). No. We confined them to a taming cage until they were tame. It had nothing to do with litterbox habits. But I think that I've found the newsgroup troublemaker and will stop now. b >>>>> No disagreement. Territorial marking is a different function. As >>>>> for [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > now. > b OH MY GAWD! You confined them to a cage simply for being wild kittens! How could you!!! You don't deserve to have these furry little gifts from God. Why, you barely deserve to have stuffed animals! Which is probably what you will do with them the moment they misbehave! Have them stuffed! I'm calling the Compassion Police! (raging sarcasm). Brad, I have 3 rescue cats. and 1 maine coon. My first 2 cats - Lucifer & Catfive were spay/neutered at about 4 months of age. I could have done so sooner but because catfive was extremely sick when we got them, rescued - full of worms and flees to the point he almost died. They were also both too small to have been removed from the mommy cat but someone did not care about that either. Anyway I wanted to get them both up to a good healthy condition before surgery and having contacted spay usa - and some vets I felt safe in this. My Maine Coon however I delayed neutering longer per the request of the breeder and my vet advised the same. The group argued the point with me, however it worked for me just fine. I neutered him when he was 8 months old. I watched for any signs in him that showed he was becoming mature as apposed to a kitten. Like him challenging my other male cat. He did not ever spray befoer neutering and has not since. Everything went well and I am happy with the delay. He had no problems and was up running around within 24 hours of the surgery with no signs he had had it. The choice is yours, neutering is easy and unless you have some specific reason to delay - why not get it done with now? www.spayusa.org/ low cost spay neutering... soft > I should have mentioned that the breeder is in Oklahoma and I am in > Wisconsin. Philip I think it was you who mentioned waiting until he > shows signs of wanting to mate what are the odds of him spraying > before yowling which obviously I would like to keep away from. > > Brad Brad, are you dealing with Sooner State Siberians? website: http://www.soonerstatesiberians.com If so, something about that place just strikes me wrong. Several things, really. How well have you checked them out? Sherry >> I should have mentioned that the breeder is in Oklahoma and I am in >> Wisconsin. Philip I think it was you who mentioned waiting until he [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Sherry Yes I am Sherry and I researched them as much as a person can I called people who have his kittens five of them matter of fact but of course he wouldn't give me people who he had problems with. What is it that caused you concern? Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > I should have mentioned that the breeder is in Oklahoma and I am in > Wisconsin. Philip I think it was you who mentioned waiting until he > shows signs of wanting to mate what are the odds of him spraying > before yowling which obviously I would like to keep away from. > > Brad You absolutley do *not* want to wait until he has mating urges - by then it may be too late to curb spraying even if he is neutered. Get him neutered ASAP. Tell the breeder you will send vet documents as soon as it is done, if they are *that* concerned about it. -L. >> I should have mentioned that the breeder is in Oklahoma and I am in >> Wisconsin. Philip I think it was you who mentioned waiting until he [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >-L. Its required in his contract that I send him proof of neutering when it is done........the kitten is only a little over eight weeks right now, I think my plan for now is at about three months if his testicles have dropped by then. thank you all for the opinions. Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" >Don't let them keep the kitten another 2 months. I worked for a >high-volume feline specialty hospital and we did early spay/neuter all [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >good luck, >-L. I haven't finished reading all the posts yet but I visited three vets today to interview them for taking care of my cat. The one that made the most sense to me said around three months or whenever the testicles drop because if you do it before they drop you have to go into the stomach to get them and its much more invasive of a procedure than if you waited till they dropped. Seems to make alot of sense to me, none mentioned anything about weight being a factor so three vets 3, 4, and 5 months with only one good explanation of why. Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" > I haven't finished reading all the posts yet but I visited three vets > today to interview them for taking care of my cat. The one that made [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brad FWIW most testes drop well before that. You can test to see if they're dropped by gently palpitating them. The "2 pound rule" is for anesthesia. Before they weigh two pounds, their organs aren't developed enough to handle the anesthesia. Weight is a much better determinate than age because cats grow at different rates. There may be a 3-mo-old kitten that weighs under two pounds due to malnutrition, for example. -L. >> I haven't finished reading all the posts yet but I visited three vets >> today to interview them for taking care of my cat. The one that made [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >-L. Makes sense.....thanks for all the opinions........two weeks and counting till I get him........ Brad LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT, SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!" |
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