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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2005Best canned food vs. worst
What is brands are best cat food, vs. worst? I've skimmed through the Ann Martin book "Food Pets Die For"...so I'm at something of a loss what to do! What are top three wet foods...and what brands should I totally avoid. I had a cat in the 70's that I just fed the generic plain-label brands...and she got a horrible skin rash and passed away after five years..I don't want a repeat of that. Thanks for providing some clarity to this issue. My cat gets half a can of Friskies every day. I cover the other half and keep it in the fridge for the next day. I always keep a little dry food (Deli Cat) in a bowl on the side, but I don't fill the bowl full because it tends to dry out and is less palpable after sitting in the bowl for a few days. She also gets kitty treats a couple of times a day and I often give her a few little scraps of fish, pork, beef, chicken, or whatver in the evening. She is an "only pet," so she doesn't have to compete with other animals in the house. I'm not saying that this is the perfect feeding regimen, but it has served my cat well in her 17 years, as she's quite healthy, active, in very good shape, and acts much younger than her years. > My cat gets half a can of Friskies every day. I cover the other half > and keep it in the fridge for the next day. I always keep a little dry [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cat well in her 17 years, as she's quite healthy, active, in very good > shape, and acts much younger than her years. In my heart of hearts I suspect a diet of both canned and dry is the best one for healthy cats. But cats with special needs may not fare so well. You already know the answer to the worst foods. The generics are absolutely horrible it's just not worth the health of the animal to save a few bucks by buying plain label. Celeste > What is brands are best cat food, vs. worst? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks for providing some clarity to this issue. > What is brands are best cat food, vs. worst? > > I've skimmed through the Ann Martin book "Food Pets Die For"...so I'm at > something of a loss what to do! well....that's your first mistake! Seriously. I've dealt w/ Ann Martin on a dog ng about a year or so ago, and I've never met a more nasty, vicious person. She makes a ton of money peddling fear and anger. The stuff she alleges happened in Canada and many, many years ago. She takes half-truths and leads you to believe something entirely different happened. Buyer beware of anything she is selling. :( Some excellent brands of canned food are Wellness, Innova, California Natural, Natural Balance, Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Merrick, Nutro, Pinnacle, Evolve, Newman's Own, Felidae... I feed my cats a diet of primarily wet food, and rotate between all of the above brands. Some they prefer more than others. The more wet food in a cat's diet, the better. The link below explains why wet food is so important for cats. http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php? action=library&act=show&item=whycatsneedcannedfood > Some excellent brands of canned food are Wellness, Innova, California > Natural, Natural Balance, Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Merrick, Nutro, Pinnacle, > Evolve, Newman's Own, Felidae... hello everybody. i am from croatia (europe) ;) and i have never heard of those kinds of food you are mentioning here. is here maybe someone from europe who can share the best brands of food with me? for instance hills, eukanuba, royal canin? do you know those brands? > > Some excellent brands of canned food are Wellness, Innova, California > > Natural, Natural Balance, Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Merrick, Nutro, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > here maybe someone from europe who can share the best brands of food with > me? for instance hills, eukanuba, royal canin? do you know those brands? Those are premium foods and should work just fine. We have those here, too. You have to go to specialty stores for Wellness, Innova, and many other "organic" brands. I have a hard time finding those myself. When I DID find them, my cats hated them (though my dog loves Hill's Science Diet). Generally speaking, you get what you pay for. Hills and Royal Canin are good foods. I personally won't feed IAMS or Eukanuba, but that's a private issue I have with the company that owns them (Proctor and Gamble), not with the foods themselves. My aunt fed her cats Eukanuba all their lives and they both made it just past 20. So I'm pretty sure the food itself is a good one. We have a compromise in my house. I don't eat the same thing every day. That isn't conducive to a balanced diet. My pets don't eat the same thing every day, either. Sometimes I get junk food. So do they. I feed them a variety of premium dry foods (such as royal canin, nutro natural, felidae, and the like) and high-end-but-not-premium dry foods (such as purina pro plan and purina one). They also get wet "junk" food, since that's the only wet they'll eat (Fancy Feast for the cats; the dog eats anything, so we mix it up premium/crap). Once every month to two months, they get a very special treat -- a small box of Meow Mix or another "junk" dry food that they chomp through in about 3 days. *heh* They eat far more premium food than junk, but they do get junk. The dog also gets some people food, epecially left over meat. The cats don't much like people food, but they like chicken, cheese, and lunch meat, so they get that sometimes, too. I think it helps keep them interested and helps keep their systems functioning optimally. My pets never have digestive problems switching foods because we do it all the time (though sometimes Jeffrey forgets he does get fed twice daily and eats too much too fast and pukes, but he came to me from a cat collector and was pretty skinny and beat up at the time). IMO, variety is a Good Thing, as I never have to worry about what happens if the store is out of their food, if I need to board them in an emergency, etc. If you always feed the same food and then abruptly need to switch, your cat will more likely than not get rather nasty diarrhea. So switching frequently helps keep that from happening, at least IME. Note that cats with special health needs may need a more specific diet. [The preceding was my OPINION based on my experience. IANAV.]  Signature-- ~kaeli~ Every calendar's days are numbered. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > Some excellent brands of canned food are Wellness, Innova, California > > > Natural, Natural Balance, Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Merrick, Nutro, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Those are premium foods and should work just fine. We have those here, too. you know, the problem is that i cant switch foods a lot because my cat eats very very little, she eats royal canin dry food and only one brand of "junk" wet food because that's all she wants! and the amount of food she eats is 1/4 of what it's written on the box or on the can. that's why i am constantly searching for the richest and best food to try to give to her because i would like her to eat more, of course. i am a little worried about her. but, she is healthy and active, almost 2 years old, so i guess it's not a big deal, she is just like that. still, it's important for me to still try and give her some other kinds of food, maybe she will start eating more... thank you for sharing your experience. <snip> >you know, the problem is that i cant switch foods a lot because my cat eats >very very little, she eats royal canin dry food and only one brand of "junk" >wet food because that's all she wants! and the amount of food she eats is >1/4 of what it's written on the box or on the can. I believe cat food manufacturers have some very generous serving sizes listed on their packages. I know I can't get my cats to eat as much as they suggest...not even close!! Justin > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I know I can't get my cats to eat as much as they suggest...not even > close!! I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice this! I feed Hodge a fraction of what's recommended and felt guilty about it -- but then he's maintaining a good weight (for him) of 11 lbs. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ You would probably be able to order foods from the web - at a price, though, if they don't have a distributor in Croatia. Try looking at the ingredients, an easy rule of thumb I read is that there should be no byproducts (meat, fish, chicken, etc) listed in the first 20 ingredients listed. > Try looking at the ingredients, an easy rule of thumb I read is that there > should be no byproducts (meat, fish, chicken, etc) listed in the first 20 > ingredients listed. Actually, Suzanne, your approach has nothing to do w/ feline nutrition. There are too many games that can (legally) be played w/ the ingredient label. Ingredients are listed by their weight in descending order on ingredient labels. So what you are looking at is the weight of ingredients (water included) on canned food. That gives you absolutely no idea of the actual nutrition contained in the food, nor the quality of ingredients. Dr. Hofve's comments border on the ridiculous. There is ZERO data that supports the nonsensical claim that dry foods "cause" diabetes. That is merely conjecture and hypothesis and has yet to be proven in any way shape or form. One of the disadvantages that the carbophobics consistently fail to respond to is the downside of a carbophobic diet. None of the carbophobics crowd have yet to respond to the issue of what happens when we adopt the carbophobic fad. Removal of carbs means the energy must come from somewhere else - either protein or fats. In most cases it comes form much increased protein levels. Along with that protein comes phosphorus. Adding increased phosphorus in the diet has zero positive benefit and may have some very bad side effects. Consider that renal failure has hugely increased in cats over the past decade. According to Perdue's database renal failure hit 0.9658% of cats in 1980 - in 1990 it had risen to 4.81% of cats and by the year 2000 it had risen to 10.31% of all cats. In a 20 year period renal disease has increased by a whopping ten fold increase. Since we cannot detect renal failure until it is much too late and the only possible result is a hard fast spiral toward death, feeding excessive amounts of phosphorus is a very huge risk to take. Particularly when we opt to do so based on completely unproven hypothesis and opinion, totally unsupported by any clinical trials. <snip lies and scaremongering> FYI: For those reading Steve's attempt at bait and switch, just ignore him. He has been asked many times to post proof or cites that show phosphorus is harmful to healthy cats or that it causes kidney failure but continuously refuses to do so (because there isn't any). He also fails to address his insinuation that a high protein diet is harmful when what we're talking about is an obligate carnivore that does best on an all meat diet with very little carbs. It makes it obvious what his agenda is. You can however, watch him respond to me and go on and on about cats with kidney failure in the hope of scaring people into thinking phosphorus causes it. In the veterinary textbook Small Animal Clinical Nutrition (that Science Diet is affilated with,) it also says there is no evidence that excessive phosphorus causes renal failure. He lies and misrepresents here and in other groups as well in an attempt to discredit foods and once even a certain company, Solid Gold, which resulted in one of their representatives having to come to the newsgroup and refute his lie. He's as biased and brainwashed as they come and is best ignored. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > <snip lies and scaremongering> > > FYI: > For those reading Steve's attempt at bait and switch, just ignore him. Oh gawd, here we go again! > > <snip lies and scaremongering> > > > > FYI: > > For those reading Steve's attempt at bait and switch, just ignore him. > > Oh gawd, here we go again! *ahem*searchthearchives*ahem* Signature-- ~kaeli~ Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > <snip lies and scaremongering> > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > *ahem*searchthearchives*ahem* Really, man. I am not one of those "read the FAQ" people, but an awful lot of time, effort, thought and emotion has gone into the Cat Food Wars. The archives is the place. Err, Google, that is. :) > <snip lies and scaremongering> > > FYI: > For those reading Steve's attempt at bait and switch, just ignore him. > He has been asked many times to post proof or cites that show phosphorus > is harmful to healthy cats That seems to be the key phrase here. I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already IN renal failure or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats seem to be badly affected by it. But one would hope you'd know if you had a cat with CRF! Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already IN > renal failure or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats > seem to be badly affected by it. But one would hope you'd know if you had a > cat with CRF! > > Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? Problem is that it's difficult (impossible?) to catch CRF early, so by the time it is detected, much damage may have been wreaked by a diet high in phosphorous. Steve. > > Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? > > Problem is that it's difficult (impossible?) to catch CRF early, so by > the time it is detected, much damage may have been wreaked by a diet > high in phosphorous. I am just learning that. I think I'm going to do some research and do an article about CRF so I actually have some idea of what I'm talking about. LOL Signature-- ~kaeli~ What do they use to ship styrofoam? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think I'm going to do some research and do an article about CRF so I > actually have some idea of what I'm talking about. LOL I'll look forward to that. As my cats age, I want to know what to look out for and how to prevent it if possible. > -- > ~kaeli~ > What do they use to ship styrofoam? > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > (...) >> I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already IN [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Steve. There is a test that can detect early renal disease: http://www.heska.com/erd/pr_info.asp As another point, just because a food doesn't have a lot of carbs does not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous, as Steve Crane seems to be implying here. SignaturePawsForThought > There is a test that can detect early renal disease: > http://www.heska.com/erd/pr_info.asp Very few vets use the ERD because its not very specific. Still it could possibly detect other diseases a little earlier. > There is a test that can detect early renal disease: > http://www.heska.com/erd/pr_info.asp > > As another point, just because a food doesn't have a lot of carbs does > not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous, as Steve Crane seems to > be implying here. Thanks for posting this link, I saved it in my "cats" file. "kaeli" <tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message > I was looking around, and it seems it [phosphorus] is only harmful to cats already IN > renal failure That may or may not be true. No one has ever conducted a prospective CRF study in cats from very young ages to determine the natural causes of CRF and follow the natural course of the disease. No one knows exactly when CRF begins in cats because nearly all of the CRF studies in cats were conducted on cats with surgically induced renal failure. The morphologic changes and effects of naturally occurring and naturally progressing disease don't ocurr in instant, surgically-induced CRF. Diets high in phosphorus can cause damage to the kidneys in at least two ways: first, by increasing GFR - a sustained increase in GFR damages the nephrons, and second, by promoting phosphorus and calcium deposits in the kidneys (renal mineralization/soft tissue calcification). Phosphorus retention (and calcification of soft tissue [kidneys, heart, brain, lungs]) can develop before the onset of hyperphosphatemia and hyperparathyroidism. This is from Carl Osborne, David Polzin and Sheri Ross in Ettinger's 6th edition- hot off the press: "Phosphate retention begins early in the course of CKD and has been implicated in promoting progressive renal injury in several species, including dogs and cats. A role for phosphorus in promoting progressive CKD is based on the observation that dietary phosphorus restriction limited renal-related mortality in dogs and renal mineralization in cats. Phosphorus may promote progression of CKD, at least in part, by precipitation with calcium in the renal interstitium. This renal mineralization may then initiate an inflammatory reaction, resulting in renal interstitial fibrosis and tubular atrophy" or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats > seem to be badly affected by it. Renal mineralization has also been found in *normal*, *healthy* cats. But one would hope you'd know if you had a > cat with CRF! Not without extensive tests, you won't. By the time CRF is detected with routine BUN/Creatinine tests, at least 2/3 to 3/4 of kidney function has already been lost. > Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? As I said, no one has ever conducted a prospective CRF study in cats from very young ages to determine the natural causes of CRF and to follow the natural course of the disease. <snipped> Thanks for your very informative post, Phil. I have some more reading to do. Signature-- ~kaeli~ What do they use to ship styrofoam? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >That seems to be the key phrase here. >I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already IN >renal failure or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats >seem to be badly affected by it. But one would hope you'd know if you had a >cat with CRF! And that is precisely the point - you don't know. Your cat could have 65% renal failure and the blood tests etc available at the local vet clinic will NOT diagnose the problem. You have to wait until the cat has lost +70% fo the kidney before the typical blood/chem/urinalysis tests in clinic will diagnose a CRF cat. By that time - it is too late - all you can do now is manage the disease. If on the other hand you caught that cat at 50% failure and began feeding a renal diet the extension of the lifespan of that cat would be huge. At present Heska manufactures a test called the ERD test (Early Renal Detection) It is capable of testing for renal failure and picking it up much much earlier. Unfortunately nobody is using it. So far they haven't sold enough of these kits to test the cats in East Nowhere Montana, let alone the country or even those cats over age 12 at much higher risk. > >That seems to be the key phrase here. > >I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > enough of these kits to test the cats in East Nowhere Montana, let > alone the country or even those cats over age 12 at much higher risk. Wow. Just...wow. Explains why so many mature formula foods are low phosphorus. I was kind of wondering about that. I wonder if vets know about this new test. If not, why not? If so, why don't they use it? I wonder if it costs a lot more or something. I'd be very interested in yearly testing for my furry kids, especially Rowan, since she's had health problems already. Better safe than sorry, IMO. And it's not like it's an invasive test. Maybe I should ask mine when I bring Maddie in for her yearly vacc. She's next up in a couple weeks. If anyone wants to check it out, here's their site. http://www.heska.com/erd/ Unfortunately, even though it's a urine test, it doesn't appear you can order it for home use. Looks like vets only. I didn't see prices. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Frisbeetarianism (n.), The belief that, when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck there. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace <snip Megan's lies and character assasinations> Megan, perhaps you would like to respond to the substance of Steve's argument instead of pleading w/ others to ignore him after you've finished trying to smear him. Grow up. And why is it okay for Solid Gold people to come on this ng and not Hill's people?? Your problem is that you can't tolerate diverse opinions and you have a problem countering facts when they don't agree w/ your agenda or your opinions. Instead you attempt to smear people whom you don't agree with. That's nice. :( > And why is it okay for Solid Gold people to come on this ng and not > Hill's people?? The only reason Solid Gold posted here (once, mind you) was in reply to Steve Crane the Hills rep's lame (and obvious) attempt at smearing Solid Gold, and for no other reason. Solid Gold stated their reason for posting, and never tried to hide the fact that they worked for Solid Gold (unlike other petfood reps here). Lauren > > And why is it okay for Solid Gold people to come on this ng and not > > Hill's people?? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lauren What other pet food reps are here? YOU? I think Solid Gold didn't want to stick around because they would be outed as working for a company that does next to nothing (if anything) in the area of reseach...feline or otherwise. ><snip Megan's lies and character assasinations> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >opinions. Instead you attempt to smear people whom you don't agree >with. That's nice. :( When have Solid Gold people come on this newsgroup? I missed that one. eq EQ wrote: > When have Solid Gold people come on this newsgroup? I missed that one. > > eq From a google, this is what Steve Crane posted, but it was in one of the dog groups: " Steve Crane Mar 9, 7:48 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health From: "Steve Crane" <eodemo...@cox.net> - Find messages by this author Date: 9 Mar 2005 19:48:56 -0800 Local: Wed,Mar 9 2005 7:48 pm Subject: Re: Wellness and who is is actually made by? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Solid Gold no less! That's an interesting one. Many years ago when I was a kid working in a grocery store the owner of Solid Gold was having an affair with the owner of the store. We ended up with a stack of the stuff that eventually went buggy. Not the foods fault, the cost was just too high for the grocery store clientele. Many years later I was in court when the owner faced charges of frauduluent labelling. A couple weeks ago I stopped by the "global headquarters" in Santee California. It was really sad. The place used to be spotless and clean. Today the headquarters looks like the most run down back alley pet store you ever went into. Paint peeling off the windows, trash everywhere, old raggedy papers stacked in the corner. It really is a shame. " Here is the reply by Solid Gold: " Solid Gold Mar 11, 2:44 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health From: "Solid Gold" <d...@solidgoldhealth.com> - Find messages by this author Date: 11 Mar 2005 14:44:19 -0800 Local: Fri,Mar 11 2005 2:44 pm Subject: Re: Wellness and who is is actually made by? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse "Steve, I work for Solid Gold and this post was brought to my attention by a few of our customers. 900 Vernon Way is our corporate office, which is located in a new industrial center. We have only been at this address for a year and a half. Before this, we were based at another location in El Cajon. Our Vernon Way office is not a place you would just "stop in" as we do not conduct any physical business with the public in this office. I believe you are probably referring to the small retail store Sissy runs located on Cuyamaca. The retail store is very eclectic and is full of things Sissy has collected over the years such as wall hangings, art, photos of her animals and customer animals, etc. This is only Sissy's retail store. All Solid Gold business in conducted from our corporate offices. I just wanted to clear up the confusion and do not wish to discuss or debate the merits of Solid Gold pet foods or any other pet food on an internet forum. Best regards, Solid Gold " SignaturePawsForThought > EQ wrote: > > When have Solid Gold people come on this newsgroup? I missed that one. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health > From: "Solid Gold" <d...@solidgoldhealth.com> - Find messages by this > author > Date: 11 Mar 2005 14:44:19 -0800 [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Sissy's retail store. All Solid Gold business in conducted from our > corporate offices. Apparently you didn't get the part where the location that Steve referred to, *used* to be the HQ of Solid Gold. They've since moved. The record was corrected and everyone moved on...except you. However, you seem to think that when someone works for Hill's and corrects the record that they are simply here as part of some diabolical plot. I wrote: <snip primer on Steve Crane> I forgot to add that his alter ego, the troll Chris Gaub (also a Hill's employee) is best ignored as well. He consistently lies and makes claims but refuses to provide cites to back them up. He is also a hypocrite (on the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > I wrote: > <snip primer on Steve Crane> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that > capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. Why Megan, thank you so much for telling us all what we should do! Gee, it's a wonder we can get our forks from our dishes to our mouths without you there telling us how, we're just that stupid. Folks, welcome to alt.Megan.is.queen.and.demands.a.f*cking.apology! "The only thing necessary for the triumph of stupidity is for smart (wo)men to do nothing." -CatNipped > I wrote: > <snip primer on Steve Crane> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that > capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. And yet, people have seen your behavior and are snorting at your sage advice! What a surprise. :) > I wrote: > <snip primer on Steve Crane> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Megan Megan, why don't you provide some proof for once instead of running your mouth? You are constantly trashing or attempting to smear Steve or me. What's the matter...are you afraid of the argument AGAIN?? You're what? 0-212, now?? I DARE you to show anytime where I've ever lied. I jsut don't roll like that. Anytime anyone dares disagree w/ you, you beg and plead w/ others to killfile us. Actually, you should be placed in everyone's killfiles, so that they don't have to listen to you vitriol any longer. > I DARE you to show anytime where I've ever lied. I jsut don't roll > like that. Anytime anyone dares disagree w/ you, you beg and plead w/ > others to killfile us. Actually, you should be placed in everyone's > killfiles, so that they don't have to listen to you vitriol any longer. *AMEN*! Hugs, CatNipped >He has been asked many times to post proof or cites that show phosphorus >is harmful to healthy cats or that it causes kidney failure but >continuously refuses to do so (because there isn't any). Ya know Megan - ya just can't stop yourself from lying can you? Please identify ANYTIME where I EVER made the claim that phosphorus CAUSES kidney disease. We'll all wait with baited breath while you try to find this one. I have never made such a claim as you well know. What I have done repeatedly is examine the risks of feeding a high phos diet to cats. Since there is not one single whit of positive news in feeding cats a high phos diet it is reasonable and prudent to examine how nutrients like phos affect risks of common diseases in cats. Let's take a look at some facts of life. 1. Renal failure can NOT be detected until +70% of the kidney is destroyed and the animal is on a singular path to death. 2. Excessive levels of phosphorus is cats with undetected renal failure WILL speed death. Here are the clinical trials to prove that. Ross LA, Finco DR, Crowell WA. Effect of dietary phosphorus restriction on the kidneys of cats with reduced renal mass. Am J Vet Res 1982; 43: 1023-1026. Adams LG, Polzin DJ, Osborne CA, et al. Effects of dietary protein and calorie restriction in clinically normal cats and in cats with surgically induced chronic renal failure. Am J Vet Res 1993; 54: 1653-1662. Adams LG, Polzin DJ, Osborne CA, et al. Influence of dietary protein/calorie intake on renal morphology function in cats with 5/6 nephrectomy. Lab Invest 1994; 70: 347-357. Barber PJ, Rawlings JM, Markwell PJ, et al. Effect of dietary phosphate restriction on renal secondary hyperparathyroidism in the cat. J Small Anim Pract 1999; 40: 62-70. Elliott J, Rawlings JM, Markwell PJ, et al. Survival of cats with naturally occurring chronic renal failure: Effect of dietary management. J Small Anim Pract 2000; 41: 235-242. 3. NOBODY has ever claimed that high phos in a diet has ANY benefit whatsoever. 4. Renal failure in cats is rising at a much faster rate than anyone knew. From less than 1% in 1980 to 10% in 2000 is a huge increase in disease. 5. NOBODY - not even Megan with her crystal ball - can tell you which 1 cat out of 10 will be the next victim of renal failure. 6. Since you cannot detect it until it is too late, you have a risk factor of unknowingly feeding a high phos food (with NO benefit) to a cat in sub-clinical renal failure and the results of that are not debateable. If you own an older cat >12 yrs old, the risks of undetected renal failure skyrocket. >Ya know Megan - ya just can't stop >yourself from lying can you? > Please identify ANYTIME where I >EVER made the claim that phosphorus >CAUSES kidney disease. <snip expected bait and switch and scare tactics> I haven't lied and I have never said that you claim phosphorus causes kidney disease. What I have said is that you imply it by posting over and over exactly the things you posted in your response to me, which include scare tactics and implication WRT phosphorus. You know exactly what you're doing and it's on par with a snake oil salesman. You go on and on and use the "excessive phosphorus" catch phrase ad nauseum, yet you still have provided NO proof that phosphorus causes kidney disease in healthy cats or is harmful in other ways. Over and over again you avoid doing so, but you can't have it both ways. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray zuz...@webtv.net wrote: > >Ya know Megan - ya just can't stop > >yourself from lying can you? > > Please identify ANYTIME where I > >EVER made the claim that phosphorus > >CAUSES kidney disease. > I haven't lied and I have never said that you claim phosphorus causes > kidney disease. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Megan Megan, just listen to yourself. You are asking Steve to provide proof that phosphorus "causes" kidney disease in healthy cats while Steve has never claimed that it does. Yet you deny ever saying that Steve has claimed that phosphorus causes kidney disease. Why are you asking him to provide proof of something he has never said that he has done? Dizzy yet? You are trying to have it both ways. For the record (and anyone can check this out themselves), I've never seen Steve state that phosphorus (excessive or otherwise) "causes" kidney disease. So why are you always on his back when he points out that excessive phosphorus (as found in many of the diets YOU recommend) has no positive benefits? I think it is because even you cannot find any good reason to feed excessive phosphorus to cats. Steve has already explained why excess phosphorus in a diet of a cat that is in sub-clinical renal failure is NOT a good idea. Since neither you nor anyone else can predict which cat is going to experience renal disease, it makes sense that excess phosphorus in the diet is a bad idea. > You go on and on and use the "excessive phosphorus" catch phrase ad > nauseum, yet you still have provided NO proof that phosphorus causes > kidney disease in healthy cats or is harmful in other ways. Over and > over again you avoid doing so, but you can't have it both ways. He didn't say it causes it. He said it is harmful to cats who are already diseased. Which it is and that's a proven fact. The point he was trying to make (that I also missed until it was clarified) was that, as a kitty guardian, there is no way for us to know if our cats have kidney disease until it is too late. So, since there is no benefit to higher levels of phosphorus in the diet, and IF the cat is diseased (which at only, say, 30%, we can't yet tell) it can hurt the cat, then why take the chance? At least, that's what I got out of it. YMMV, I suppose. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >The point he was trying to make (that I >also missed until it was clarified) was >that, as a kitty guardian, there is no way >for us to know if our cats have kidney >disease until it is too late. So? Have you not noticed he always focuses on and gets the term "excess phosphorus" in there somewhere? And then by going on about "excess phosporus" he implies it could cause renal failure. He's knows exactly what he is doing. For someone that is not aware of his tactics, they'll assume phosphorus could cause renal failure, which is exactly what he wants. This has been his MO long before you came to this group, and it still is. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >> The point he was trying to make (that I >> also missed until it was clarified) was [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Megan I see what you mean. The problem I have is that Steve Crane is always implying "excessive" phosphorous. What diet is he referring to? Which ones have excessive phosphorous? any brand but Hill's? SignaturePawsForThought > >> The point he was trying to make (that I > >> also missed until it was clarified) was [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > implying "excessive" phosphorous. What diet is he referring to? Which > ones have excessive phosphorous? any brand but Hill's? The problem I have is that you are constantly bashing Hill's. That, and the fact that you (purposely) posted an ingredient list from Science Diet Light and then portrayed it as being indicative of all Science Diet products. For the record, Steve has pointed out time and time again that the foods *you* recommend are, indeed, higher in phosphorus than many Science Diet feline foods. zuz...@webtv.net wrote: > >The point he was trying to make (that I > >also missed until it was clarified) was [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Megan Megan, here you go again. Now you're saying that Steve *implies* that excess phosphorus *causes* kidney disease. You're backpedalling. I've seen you *imply* things time and time again and then when you are challenged, you dare posters to point out where you directly *said* what you were implying. You're accusing Steve of doing the very same thing that you do all the time. You're a hypocrite. Perhaps you'd like to come out in favor of feeding cats excess phosphorus? Now's your big chance! ;) > Megan, here you go again. Now you're saying that Steve *implies* that > excess phosphorus *causes* kidney disease. You're backpedalling. I've > seen you *imply* things time and time again and then when you are > challenged, you dare posters to point out where you directly *said* > what you were implying. You're accusing Steve of doing the very same > thing that you do all the time. You're a hypocrite. *THANK YOU*!!! Hugs, CatNipped >> You go on and on and use the "excessive phosphorus" catch phrase ad >> nauseum, yet you still have provided NO proof that phosphorus causes [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > At least, that's what I got out of it. YMMV, I suppose. My question is where does he get that the diet being fed is too high in phosphorous? There are several diets low in carbs that are within range of phosphorous. Just because a diet doesn't contained corn gluten meal does not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous. SignaturePawsForThought > My question is where does he get that the diet being fed is too high in > phosphorous? A book he quoted and stats from the foods. I asked. =================================================================== Message-ID: <1114027019.099094.224100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> ... The levels are derived from Small Animal Clinical Nutrition IV ed, 2000. The authors of that section (page 309) are: Claudia A. Kirk, DVM PhD, Diplomate American College of Veterinary Nutrition, Diplomate American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Professor of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition at the Veterinary College, University of Tennesee. ... Below are the values from page 309 for a healthy adult cat in Dry matter basis values. Protein 30-45% Fat 10-30% Fiber <5% Calcium 0.5-1.0% Phosphorus 0.5-0.9% Sodium 0.2-0.6% Potassium 0.6-1.0% Magnesium 0.04-0.1% Average Urinary pH output 6.2-6.5 =================================================================== > There are several diets low in carbs that are within > range of phosphorous. Yes, that was agreed upon. At least *I* thought it was. :) > Just because a diet doesn't contained corn > gluten meal does not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous. I don't see where he said that it did. Did I miss something? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Cthulhu saves our souls and redeems them for valuable coupons later. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > My question is where does he get that the diet being fed is too high in > > phosphorous? > > A book he quoted and stats from the foods. I asked. <snip quoted text> What I'm asking is when someone has said they feed a food with no carbs or low carbs, he starts in with the "excessive" phosphorous, without even knowing what the person is feeding. That's what I was wondering about, where he got the idea the food someone was feeding was excessive in phosphorous, without even knowing which food was fed, or did I miss something? > > There are several diets low in carbs that are within > > range of phosphorous. > > Yes, that was agreed upon. At least *I* thought it was. :) Well you and I agree, and some others anyway :) > > Just because a diet doesn't contained corn > > gluten meal does not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous. > > I don't see where he said that it did. Did I miss something? It goes back to when a low carb diet is brought up, he goes off on a tangent about the food being "excessive" in phosphorous. > What I'm asking is when someone has said they feed a food with no carbs > or low carbs, he starts in with the "excessive" phosphorous, without > even knowing what the person is feeding. That's what I was wondering > about, where he got the idea the food someone was feeding was excessive > in phosphorous, without even knowing which food was fed, or did I miss > something? Ah, I see. Just looking at what my server still has from this thread, he never stated anything vaguely like that, or I didn't see it. Now, as to what he has said in other threads, I dunno. People *accused* him of it, but I couldn't find where he actually said what they accused him of intimating. Not that things like that are all that uncommon here. *ahem* > It goes back to when a low carb diet is brought up, he goes off on a > tangent about the food being "excessive" in phosphorous. See, now, I just couldn't find that here. I saw where he suggested it *might* be, but nowhere did he say it was *for sure*. But, I might have missed it. My server only keeps things for a few days. Maybe I'll go google, if I have a spare cycle or three. They keep stuff. Signature-- ~kaeli~ If a book about failures doesn't sell, is it a success? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> What I'm asking is when someone has said they feed a food with no carbs >> or low carbs, he starts in with the "excessive" phosphorous, without [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Maybe I'll go google, if I have a spare cycle or three. They keep stuff. It does get confusing. I tend to read the posts quickly and what stuck out was the excessive phosphorous part. Maybe not in this thread. I don't know, sometimes the food threads all blur together, LOL. I just didn't know if he's talking about a specific brand or type of food, or in general. SignaturePawsForThought > It does get confusing. I tend to read the posts quickly and what stuck > out was the excessive phosphorous part. Maybe not in this thread. I > don't know, sometimes the food threads all blur together, LOL. I just > didn't know if he's talking about a specific brand or type of food, or > in general. Yeah, I know what you mean. Plus, it took me a slight bit to realize there are *two* Steves and they are different people, not one person posting from work/home (or the like). LOL I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the box. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Why do they sterilize the needles for lethal injections? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > What I'm asking is when someone has said they feed a food with no carbs > or low carbs, he starts in with the "excessive" phosphorous, without > even knowing what the person is feeding. That's what I was wondering > about, where he got the idea the food someone was feeding was excessive > in phosphorous, without even knowing which food was fed, or did I miss > something? I think you missed something. ;) Seriously, when the food was named, IIRC Steve then gave a nutrient level breakdown. He has that information available to him. > > > Just because a diet doesn't contained corn > > > gluten meal does not necessarily mean it's high in phosphorous. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It goes back to when a low carb diet is brought up, he goes off on a > tangent about the food being "excessive" in phosphorous. No, that only happens when a specific food (that is high in phosphorus) is named. > > You go on and on and use the "excessive phosphorus" catch phrase ad > > nauseum, yet you still have provided NO proof that phosphorus causes [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > At least, that's what I got out of it. YMMV, I suppose. Yep, that's EXACTLY what Steve said. > Dr. Hofve's comments border on the ridiculous. Who's that? You didn't quote to whom you were replying. > Along with that > protein comes phosphorus. Why is that assumed? In nature, wild cats eat plenty of protein and as far as I know do not have this problem. Does the phosphorus come from the way commercial foods are produced? Would a raw (or organic, all natural, etc) diet eliminate this problem? Can it be elimated from commercial foods? If so, why the hell isn't it? If not, why not? > There is ZERO data that > supports the nonsensical claim that dry foods "cause" diabetes. It's not the food's wetness or dryness. It's what's IN the food. > That is > merely conjecture and hypothesis and has yet to be proven in any way > shape or form. In cats, no, it has not been proven (anyone have any data?). In humans, excessive carb and sugar consumption DOES cause diabetes and aggravates existing pre-diabetes conditions. Considering the fact that humans were meant to be omnivores and cats were meant to be carnivores, it simply stands to reason that their biochemistry is maladapted to excessive carb intake and well-adapted to a high protein, high fat diet. I would love to see real studies, though. See, there is no data on the frequency of diabetes in cats who don't eat commerical foods. In fact, as far as I know, there aren't even any studies on wet vs dry food. Just like any other study, it would have to be funded. And what commercial pet food company would want to encourage people to NOT buy their product? No one else has the time or funds for a large enough study. So, none are done. Signature-- ~kaeli~ A lot of money is tainted - It taint yours and it taint mine. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > Dr. Hofve's comments border on the ridiculous. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > this problem. Does the phosphorus come from the way commercial foods are > produced? Let me clarify: EXCESS, that is, levels that are harmful, phosphorus. But after a little research, I question the very presumption that dry and wet foods are all that different in phosphorus levels to begin with. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Why do people who know the least know it the loudest? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > Why is that assumed? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it be elimated from commercial foods? If so, why the hell isn't it? If not, > why not? Hi Kaeli, Just because a food is low in carbs does not mean it's necessarily high in phosphorous. In a feline diet, all levels should be balanced, not just phosphorous. I note that Steve Crane is always pushing the phosphorous angle. While important, I believe all nutrient levels are important. You can have a good food that isn't loaded with corn gluten meal and still be within range on phosphorous. I feed my cats a homemade balanced raw diet that does not include carbs usually found in foods such as Hill's and Eukanuba for example. The diet is well within range on all nutrient levels. I think Steve likes to use the fear factor regarding carbs. I have yet to see a cat willingly eat corn gluten (unless it has butter on it of course :) Lauren > Hi Kaeli, > Just because a food is low in carbs does not mean it's necessarily high > in phosphorous. Yeah, I noticed that later. Interesting, that. *grins* Signature-- ~kaeli~ Frisbeetarianism (n.), The belief that, when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck there. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > In nature, wild cats eat plenty of protein and as far as I know do not have > this problem. Does the phosphorus come from the way commercial foods are > produced? Bone is high is phosphorous, and high phosphorous is consistent with meat (meal) that includes relatively more bone. Lean meat is relatively low in phos (and very low in calcium). > Would a raw (or organic, all natural, etc) diet eliminate this problem? Can > it be elimated from commercial foods? If so, why the hell isn't it? If not, > why not? It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'organic', or 'natural' and diets of this type can be equally high in phos. Why is there no (or few) commercial diet that is very low in carbs, and also has an acceptable level of phos? Cost, I assume. (...) > In cats, no, it has not been proven (anyone have any data?). In humans, > excessive carb and sugar consumption DOES cause diabetes and aggravates > existing pre-diabetes conditions. I'm not sure a definite causative link has actually been found, has it? (I'm no expert, mind). Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > meat (meal) that includes relatively more bone. Lean meat is relatively > low in phos (and very low in calcium). I am learning a TON in this thread. :) > (...) > > In cats, no, it has not been proven (anyone have any data?). In [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm not sure a definite causative link has actually been found, has it? Like many things, diabetes is a complex condition. Sugar comsumption does not cause diabetes in the sense that anyone who eats too much sugar will get diabetes. However, people who eat too much sugar (and [most|all?] carbs are really just broken down to sugars in the body) tend to be overweight. And being overweight is a large risk factor in diabetes in both humans and felines. It HAS been proven that low-carb diets help people who already have diabetes, but that's a totally different thing with the blood sugar and insulin cycle. But that's where the whole sugar-causes-diabetes thing came from, I believe. Dr. Atkins (who may or may not have been a quack) claimed that his low carb diet *prevented* type 2 diabetes. http://altmedicine.about.com/od/popularhealthdiets/a/AtkinsDiet.htm "Thanks to the work of Dr. Atkins, many people know that restricting carbohydrates, particularly refined sugar and grains, is the key to preventing and managing type 2 diabetes." (links to studies about any of this greatly appreciated -- I prefer to NOT talk out of my a.s, if possible LOL) Signature-- ~kaeli~ What do they use to ship styrofoam? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > It HAS been proven that low-carb diets help people who already have diabetes, > but that's a totally different thing with the blood sugar and insulin cycle. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > carbohydrates, particularly refined sugar and grains, is the key to > preventing and managing type 2 diabetes." Another thing is, eating complex carbs high in fiber (beans of all kinds, whole grains such as oatmeal and whole wheat breads or cereals) helps to regulate blood sugar--in humans. Whereas simple carbs (white flour and sugar) dump a whole bunch in the blood at once causing the blood sugar to plummet after. Part of avoiding diabetes is to eat foods that help to regulate the glucose levels in your blood. > (links to studies about any of this greatly appreciated -- I prefer to NOT > talk out of my a.s, if possible LOL) Me too. Too much like exercise! :) > > Along with that > > protein comes phosphorus. > > Why is that assumed? Because protein is a major source for phosphate. This is all very interesting. I cooked up a can of fancy feast the other night to make it more aromatic and lure my crawlspace feral into a trap. I could not help noticing that the stuff smelled very rancid. If a moist, meaty diet is what cats ought to get, would it not be best to bypass the cat-food aisle entirely and feed them canned tuna, raw hamburger, deli cuts, etc.? Charlie >This is all very interesting. > >I cooked up a can of fancy feast the other night to make it more >aromatic and lure my crawlspace feral into a trap. I could not help >noticing that the stuff smelled very rancid. Which variety did you try? I have noticed the "grilled" varieties don't smell too awful. >If a moist, meaty diet >is what cats ought to get, would it not be best to bypass the cat-food >aisle entirely and feed them canned tuna, raw hamburger, deli cuts, >etc.? I posted a link to a site that has a raw meat diet - http://www.felinefuture.com/ I am not sure how good it works, but it looks pretty interesting. Justin >Charlie > This is all very interesting. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Charlie Hi Charlie, Yes, cats can be fed whole fresh foods. I wouldn't recommend deli cuts (loaded with nitrates)or canned tuna. Cats have very specific nutritional needs, and if feeding a homemade diet, it needs to be properly balanced. There are some really good books out there on the subject, as well as websites, although it can sometimes be hard to separate the good information from the faulty. If you can find a vet, preferably a holistic vet, who is knowledgeable in feline nutrition, that can be quite helpful too. A good starter book I like is The Nature of Animal Healing by Dr. Martin Goldstein. Lauren > This is all very interesting. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > aisle entirely and feed them canned tuna, raw hamburger, deli cuts, > etc.? A balanced raw diet requires much more than muscle meat (which is usually what those things are) for various reasons. Look in the archives (google is good) of this group for Lauren's (PawsForThought) posts about it, as she feeds raw and is very experienced with it. Signature-- ~kaeli~ What do they use to ship styrofoam? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > This is all very interesting. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > aisle entirely and feed them canned tuna, raw hamburger, deli cuts, > etc.? They need taurine and other things not in tuna and some other foods. A diet of tuna alone, for example, can result in a blind cat. If you decide to do the raw food thing, you have to do a lot of research to do it right. Rank as it smells to you, canned cat food is formulated for cats, and is better than dry if only in the fact that it has more water and that is good for them, >They need taurine and other things not in tuna and some other >foods. A diet of tuna alone, for example, can result in a blind [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >dry if only in the fact that it has more water and that is >good for them, Taurine, eh? Never heard of it. I guess I better stick with the premix. I don't doubt the food is nutritious and wholesome from the cat's POV. After all this is an animal who will eat the offal of his prey as a preferred treat. Charlie > Taurine, eh? Never heard of it. I guess I better stick with the > premix. I don't doubt the food is nutritious and wholesome from the > cat's POV. After all this is an animal who will eat the offal of his > prey as a preferred treat. The offal is the best part! ;) Signature-- ~kaeli~ Doing my part to piss off the Religious Right. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Here's a gross story - When I was in college I had a cat. I went home for a few days and a friend took care of it. He ran out of canned food and didn't see where I had extra - even though I told him where I stored it. Instead of just buying more food..he fed the cat cans of tuna fish. Well, it made her really sick - she hid under the covers and it all went through her..When I got home, there was a huge brown stain on the mattress where she had diarreha - I had to throw the matress out and get a new one. So don't feed cats tuna!! Kaeli - I am stuck with Google so trying ot reply with the proper >> etc is a pain. >Kaeli Apr 19, 8:54 am show options >eodemo...@cox.net enlightened us with... >> Dr. Hofve's comments border on the ridiculous. >Who's that? You didn't quote to whom you were replying. This was the source quoted by the person I responded to. The poster I responded to had listed this website as a source. >> Along with that >> protein comes phosphorus. >Why is that assumed? Meat meals of any kind contain fairly high levels of phosphorus. Chicken 113 mgs/ 100 grams, beef 212 mgs/100grams, salmon 233 mgs/100 grams. Further if you look at foods that claim to be "all meat" or "low carb" the phos levels are almost always very high. Some products like the Pro Plan example which is a zero carb food contains 2.07% phos for example - way above the maximum 0.9% phos level recommended for an adult cat. >In nature, wild cats eat plenty of protein and as far as I know do not have >this problem. In nature a cat's lifespan is nothing we would want to impose upon our pets. >Does the phosphorus come from the way commercial foods are produced? No, it's intrinsic to the ingredient used to make up the food. Phos comes in with the ingredients. Like many nutrients it is always more difficult to restrict excessive levels of nutrients than it is to add nutrients. In other words removing phos from a meat meal is much tougher (technically impossible actually) than adding a bunch of vitamin E. No talent or technology required at all for the latter. >Would a raw (or organic, all natural, etc) diet eliminate this problem? Yes and No - if the person developing the food takes a good look at the nutrients being added with the ingredients that are chosen it would be very easy to construct a raw or "organic" food that is low in phos. Dr. Rebecca Remillard does this every day for cats and dogs who need such a special diet that they cannot use any commercially prepared diet. >Can it be elimated from commercial foods? If so, why the hell isn't it? If not, why not? You don't want to "eliminate it"- like all things there is a need for X amount of any nutrient for normal body functions. Can it be kept within limits that are considered safe? - definitely yes. It's simply a matter of choosing ingredients that do not intrinsically contain high levels of phos in the first place. That means the ingredients have to be chosen based on science and not on marketing driven Madison Ave concerns or the latest and greatest fad in feeding. It also means the meat meals used will cost more. The cheaper the meat meal used - the higher the levels of "ash" in those meat meals. More expensive meat meals contain lower amount of "ash" which is composed primarily of calcium and phosphorus. (There is no "ash" is a pet food - this is lab term that describs what's left of any given food when it is burned at very high temperatures during lab analysis. All the fats, proteins, fibers etc burn away and what is left are the minreals that do not burn - macro minerals like sodium, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, potassium etc and micro minreals like selenium to even gold, silver and chromium.) >> There is ZERO data that >> supports the nonsensical claim that dry foods "cause" diabetes. >It's not the food's wetness or dryness. It's what's IN the food. That is unknown - there is no data that suggests an given nutrient can *cause* diabetes in cats. >> That is >> merely conjecture and hypothesis and has yet to be proven in any way >> shape or form. >In cats, no, it has not been proven (anyone have any data?). In humans, >excessive carb and sugar consumption DOES cause diabetes and aggravates [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >well-adapted to a high protein, high fat diet. I would love to see real >studies, though. So would I - but that's not likely because nobody in the world of nutrition science is buying the theory yet. Cats are not humans and the physiology is vastly different. We can't extrapolate what happens in humans with cats or dogs. A good example is calcium. How many times have you read that human females need to be adding a calcium supplement to their diet? Almost every day you get this message. If you as a human female don't pay attention to this and ingest sufficient calcium you will experience severe problems as you age. You've all seen the awful results in an elderly woman with a severe hunch in her back due to minor fractures accumulated over decades. So why isn't this an issue in cats? Because in our pets we feed foods with very high levels of calcium all the time. Remember that most meat meals contain a significant level of ground up bones in the meat meal - thus cats get more than enough calcium every day. Logic or "stands to reason" will get us in trouble if we don't question it. I can remember when every vet sold calcium supplements for large breed dogs and insisted that any large breed bitch be fed a calcium supplement during gestation and lactation. It made logical sense. Large breed dogs grow extremely fast - far faster than their small and medium breeds counterparts. It made logical sense to add calcium to the diet for growing bones. It wasn't until the late 80's and the early 90's that we did the clinical trials that proved precisely the opposite effect from feeding calcium supplements to large breed dogs. What made logical sense fooled us. I believe the downside of the carbophobic fad - which indeed makes "logical sense" and "stands to reason" is going to be one of those slap yourself on the forehead things like feeding calcium supplements to large breed dogs was 20 years ago. >See, there is no data on the frequency of diabetes in cats who don't eat >commerical foods. In fact, as far as I know, there aren't even any studies on >wet vs dry food. >Just like any other study, it would have to be funded. And what commercial >pet food company would want to encourage people to NOT buy their product? No >one else has the time or funds for a large enough study. So, none are done. True as far as commercial versus home made. There have been some studies which examined the nturients in home made diets and found them to be full of error - either deficient or excessive in one nutrient or another. (Roudebush P, Cowell C, Evaluation of home made diets.. Veterinary Dermatology 1992; 3:23-28) Probably not true as far as canned versus dry. In fact more clinical studies are done on canned foods than on dry foods for one reason or another. For manufacturers there is a clear advantage to selling a canned food instead of a dry food - profit is higher for cans than for dry foods. All I'm suggesting is that before we leap off the cliff after the carbophobic fad, we stop ourselves and examine the downsides to the change in diet. When we have carbohydrate free foods that do not contain high levels of minerals known to be a risk, then the risk of following an unproven hypothetical dietary idea is lessened. At the moment the carbophobics are so intense and focused on hypothetical and unproven supposed advantages that they are totally ignoring the downside. For every action there is a reaction - my fear is that in reacting to the carbophobics unoproven claims and hypothetical advantages we are ignoring the "reaction" of feeding high phos foods to a very at risk population of cats. There is another downside to the carbophobics diet suggestion. Recent studies on causative factors in hyperthyroid cats have indicated that high protein levels and high levels of iodine may be linked as a causative factor to hyperthyroid kitties. The patent on this discovery was released last December so there are no secrets here. If we go down the carbophobic pathway and heavily increase proteins in the diets that almost always heavily increased phos, we are also at risk for increased factors that appear to be causative factors in hyperthyroid cats. Meats contain much higher levels of iodine than veggies or grains. For every action there is an equal re-action. > >Why is that assumed? > Meat meals of any kind contain fairly high levels of phosphorus. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In nature a cat's lifespan is nothing we would want to impose upon our > pets. Oh, that's just silly. Every captive animal should be fed a diet that is as close to the natural diet as possible. What do you think they do at zoos and such? Even for humans, a natural diet comprised of plant matter supplemented by occasional meat is optimal. This whole argument is ridiculous. -L. It is interesting to note that feeding commercial pet foods to wild canids is the recommendation of the American Zoo and Aquarium, Nutritional Advisory Group. This |
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