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Softclaws/Softpaws vs declawing

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Mike - 18 Apr 2005 01:27 GMT
My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a cat. So if anyone
could answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
think Softclaws are?

3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
posts?
Joe Canuck - 18 Apr 2005 02:04 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
> Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

This cannot be rated on a scale.

Either damage takes place, or it doesn't.

> 2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
> think Softclaws are?

Again, this cannot be rated on a scale.

While there may be an adjustment period, they are humane as long as the
cat accepts them with ease and they don't interfere with his/her life.

I wouldn't want a cat wearing these devices to be caught outside in a
position where it has to defend itself, so keeping the cat indoors would
perhaps become a priority.

> 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
> damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

The answer to that is obvious, forever.

> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

Personally, I'd start with showing the cat where scratching is okay and
where it is inappropriate... sometimes that is all it takes.
Cheryl - 18 Apr 2005 02:15 GMT
>> 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
>> damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?
>
> The answer to that is obvious, forever.

Why is this obviously forever?

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Joe Canuck - 18 Apr 2005 02:28 GMT
>>>3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
>>>damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?
>>
>>The answer to that is obvious, forever.
>
> Why is this obviously forever?

Because cats have claws for the duration of their lifetime, so as long
as the cat is a alive this is a forever item to prevent damage.
Cheryl - 18 Apr 2005 02:36 GMT
>>>>3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them
>>>>from damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> as long as the cat is a alive this is a forever item to prevent
> damage.

Again, I have no experience with Soft Paws, but when it comes to
training, one could apply the same logic to having furniture
covered while training is taking place. When the cat learns there
are alternatives, and learns those belong to him, there should be
no need to keep covers in place once the learning has been
established.

Then again, maybe you're right when it comes to covering the claws
themselves, because they don't get the opportunity to rip to shreds
a carpet or sisal covered cat tree or scratching post.

I hope others chime in. I'd hate to think a cat will forever have
to have its claws covered or risk having them removed (based on
this type of "study", or either/or alternatives, of course)

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

kelly@farringtons.net - 18 Apr 2005 04:48 GMT
Personally, I'd start with showing the cat where scratching is okay and

where it is inappropriate... sometimes that is all it takes.

----------------------------------------
I just started having Bartleby wear the SoftPaws again.  He does not
have to wear them because of a furniture scartching issue.  The reason
I had them put on is because he sticks out his claws when he kneads on
me, and it *hurts*!!  He can also be a bit of a swiper.
We routinely trim nails on all the other cats, except the semi-feral,
and Bartleby.  He does not like to be picked up and will only tolerate
trimming one nail before he freaks.  I suppose this is partially poor
training on our part, as when he was a kitten we did not insist upon
him tolerating nail-trimming.
I take him to the vet to have the SoftPaws applied.

-Kelly
-L. - 18 Apr 2005 05:56 GMT
> ----------------------------------------
> I just started having Bartleby wear the SoftPaws again.  He does not
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -Kelly

Don't they trim his nails before they apply them?  They are supposed
to.  if they just cut his nails for you it might save you some cash.

-L.
KellyH - 18 Apr 2005 14:28 GMT
> Don't they trim his nails before they apply them?  They are supposed
> to.  if they just cut his nails for you it might save you some cash.

Yes, they do.  Even with nails trimmed, Bartleby can still give me some nice
puncture wounds when kneading, so I do like to keep him in SoftPaws.  I feel
bad when I have to shoo him off of me when he's just trying to be lovey.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

-L. - 18 Apr 2005 16:27 GMT
> Yes, they do.  Even with nails trimmed, Bartleby can still give me some nice
> puncture wounds when kneading, so I do like to keep him in SoftPaws.  I feel
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> kelly at farringtons dot net
> "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Geez - he must be *really* lovey, LOL!

-L.
Steve G - 18 Apr 2005 16:58 GMT
(...)

> > 1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
> > Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?
>
> This cannot be rated on a scale.
>
> Either damage takes place, or it doesn't.

I see. So, the doorframes reduced to matchsticks is the same amount of
damage as a couple of pulled threads on a rug?

> > 2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
> > think Softclaws are?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> While there may be an adjustment period, they are humane as long as the
> cat accepts them with ease and they don't interfere with his/her life.

So, that'll be a 9, then.

(...)

> > 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
> > damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?
>
> The answer to that is obvious, forever.

Only if the owner fails to train the cat to scratch appropriately.

> > 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> > posts?
>
> Personally, I'd start with showing the cat where scratching is okay and
> where it is inappropriate... sometimes that is all it takes.

Well, softclaws may work better in the sense that the cat can never
cause any damage (AFAIK), whereas a clawed cat will always cause some
damage, even if it's trivial in magnitude (e.g., the odd scratch on a
wood floor due to walking / chasing / jumping).

S.
Joe Canuck - 18 Apr 2005 20:59 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I see. So, the doorframes reduced to matchsticks is the same amount of
> damage as a couple of pulled threads on a rug?

Read the question again.

>>>2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
>>>think Softclaws are?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> So, that'll be a 9, then.

See above.

> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> S.

Cats come with claws. Period.

People who love cats will accept the whole animal just as they are and
not try to change them into something they are not... just for human
convenience.
Steve G - 18 Apr 2005 22:11 GMT
(...)

> Read the question again.

(...)

> See above.

Gosh Joe, thanks for those steaming pearls of softly-smelly wisdom. Now
I truly see the benefits of a high fiber diet.

Steve.
Joe Canuck - 18 Apr 2005 22:57 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Gosh Joe, thanks

You are welcome.  :)
Cheryl - 18 Apr 2005 02:08 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his
> high school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use
> scratching posts?

What a great HS project! A great way to educate and explain to our
next generation just what declawing really is, rather than let any
misconceptions from prior generations dictate how they treat their
cats in the future.  

I've never used Soft Paws, but I know plenty here have and I hope
they can give some answers.

If your cousin needs some other information to add to "how to train
a cat to scratch its own stuff", I certainly can add to that.
Contrary to most people's beliefs, cats can be trained.

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

CatNipped - 18 Apr 2005 02:46 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
> to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a cat. So if anyone
> could answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

I've never had the need to use Softpaws.  I've always found it quite easy to
train cats to a scratching post with just a little effort and a lot of
catnip.  I don't think you need Softpaws and you *certainly* should amputate
a cat's toes just to save a piece of furniture.  Like anything else that's
worthwhile having, you need to put forth at least a minimal amount of effort
to get it.

Hugs,

CatNipped
John Doe - 18 Apr 2005 03:22 GMT
You don't necessarily have to train a cat. Better is to give it
something it would rather claw on. It needs to claw on something,
to some extent. If that need is taken care of, it will claw less
or not at all on other things.

Claws are the essence of a cat. Claws are used for play, exercise,
self-defense, and eating. Their whole upper body depends on their
claws for exercise.

Anything is better than declawing. Clipping a cat's claws is easy
if done when the cat is woken up from a nap. A sharp pair of
toenail clippers works just fine if done from the sides with one
hand used to extend the claw.

> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his
> high school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws.
> He's going to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a
> cat. So if anyone could answer these questions, it would be
> greatly appreciated...
bookbug2005 - 18 Apr 2005 03:27 GMT
>1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how >effective are
>Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

My cat wears soft claws/paws, and he cannot damage the furniture while
wearing them

2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
think Softclaws are?

Way better than amputating a cats toes!  Charley has accepted the soft
claws quite well.  He doesn't even seem to notice them.

3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

Forever, or until I can convince him to use a scratching post only.

4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
posts?

I don't know.
Kalyahna - 18 Apr 2005 04:24 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
> Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

Depends on the cat. If you can keep the softpaws on them, there should be no
damage done (thus, a 10).

> 2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
> think Softclaws are?

They're probably mildly irritating to some cats - in the same way as some
cats have a strong dislike for wearing a collar. But compared to declawing?
They'd be a 10.

> 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
> damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

Forever, if you don't have the inclination to train. If you have the time to
train and the money to pick up a scratching post or two, it really shouldn't
take more than a couple of weeks in most cases.

> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

Not really. Eventually the glue wears off and the softpaws have to be
replaced, which to me is more of an on-again-off-again pain in the butt than
just offering a better scratching place.

Your cousin may want to mention that in many situations, landlords now will
allow cats with softpaws instead of requiring declawing. ...and he may want
to go into the many possible side effects of declawing. All of that supports
the fact that declawing is completely unnecessary, and softpaws are a great
alternative to it.
Candy Cane - 18 Apr 2005 05:20 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?
Candy Cane - 18 Apr 2005 05:27 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

I've always trained my cats (previous and current) to scratch on appropriate
things.

From what I've read when it comes to claw covers, they are a pain in the a.s 
to apply and when it comes to declawing - it's results in severe pain to the
cat. Imagine having your fingers cut off at the first knuckle!

Cat's are like children. Time and disciple usually results in positive
results.
-L. - 18 Apr 2005 05:40 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
> Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

if they are used according to package directions, and sized properly,
10.

> 2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
> think Softclaws are?

8

> 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
> damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

They can be used indefinitely.

> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

"Better" is relative.  They work from keeping a cat from damaging
furniture, but IME, training a cat to scratch appropriately and
providing appropriate scratching trees and surfaces is more weffective,
overall.

Here's a review I wrote about SoftPaws a couple years ago:

(paste)

SoftPaws

Some people were asking about SoftPaws.  I work at a vet, and apply
these things every day, to all kinds of cats.  Here is my take:

Description:  A set of rubber nail covers which are glued to the nail,
after trimming, with a super-glue-like substance.  They are used to
keep the kitty from scratching things that may be damaged by unaltered
nails.

****************

Pros:
They are really, really easy to apply if kitty cooperates, and will
let you trim her nails easily.  They take about 5-8 minutes to apply,
once you get the hang of it.

They are relatively inexpensive (about $10-12/set, if applied at the
vet, and they last 1-3 months.)  They are even less expensive if you
buy your own kit and apply them at home.

They do not interfere with normal claw usage, but protect things you
do not want scratched, fairly effectively.

Some cats do very, very well with them.

****************

Cons:

Some cats *detest* them, and will fight you tooth and nail (excuse the
pun) when you try to apply them.

Some cats pull them off easily.

The glue is very sticky, and will stick to and damage any surface it
encounters (including human skin).

If the glue touches any skin while wet (human or cat), it burns.  It
is fairly
caustic.

Some cats are allergic to the glue.

If the nail is trimmed too short, the glue can damage the nail bed,
which results in a crusty/ill formed nail, when the nail grows out.
They work best of the nail is trimmed fairly short, and if the glue is
applied in the inner 2/3 of the cap, before application.

The caps need to be fitted properly.  Many technicians tend to use
caps that are too large, and then the cat is constantly fighting with
the caps, as they "feel" awkward.  One cat may need more than one size
of caps to accomodate all nails on the foot (e.g. mediums on all nails
except 'pinky", which needs a small).

The caps need to be applied quickly after the glue is applied...the
glue dries very quickly.  This can be tricky for beginners.

****************

Overall impression:  I think trimming nails often (every 1-2 weeks) is
a better, more wholistic solution to scratching problems, than
SoftPaws.  If you are unable to do this, SoftPaws may be a solution
for you.  Overall, it is a good product, but may not be good for every
cat.

(end of paste)

If your cousin would like more info, feel free to email me privately at
gentleboa (at) peacemail (dot) com.

-L.
mlbriggs - 18 Apr 2005 06:04 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high school
> classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going to debate
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

So far, TuTu has had 3 sets of soft paws.  Next week she will get No. 4.
Humane?  Yes!  It also helps my skin as well as furniture.  They stay on
two to three months and really curtail the scratching.  MLB
Brad - 18 Apr 2005 06:26 GMT
>My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
>school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
>posts?

Mike,

I may very well be wrong here but it sounds like whoever gave the
assignment thinks that softclaws are a training aid to stop a cat from
scratching. As you can see from your answers that is not the purpose
at all, they are for people mostly who don't want to train their cats
not to scratch so they use the softclaws so no damage is done while
they are clawing.

Brad

LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A
WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT,
SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"
dgk - 18 Apr 2005 16:15 GMT
>>My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
>>school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Brad

There are other uses. I have never used them before but stopped by
Petco to pick some up on Friday because I have one cat with an ear
problem and she is ripping apart the ear trying to scratch it. Not
fleas and not mites, that much I know.

I failed in my mission because the idiot manager takes home the only
key to the case where the softclaws are kept so I simply couldn't buy
them (good work Petco manager).

The cat will be going to the vet today or tomorrow and isn't doing new
damage so perhaps they won't be necessary. But for a cat that is
ripping out fur for a temporary problem such as itching skin, I think
that softclaws are a potential answer.
kaeli - 18 Apr 2005 14:28 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
> to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a cat.

Wouldn't you think anything is better than mutilating an animal that you're
supposed to be caring for?
The claw is attached to the bone in cats. Declawing is known in the vet world
as feline digital amputation. That's right -- they cut off the toe at the
last joint. FWIW, the procedure is illegal in many countries unless done for
a specific medical problem (such as deformed claw growth or a nasty injury
that will cause problems later if it isn't done; even then, only the affected
toe(s) have the claw removed).

> So if anyone
> could answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> 1) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
> Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

From what I've heard, about an 8-9 if used properly and they stay on.

> 2) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most humane) how humane do you
> think Softclaws are?

They are totally humane if used properly, so a 10.

> 3) How long must Softclaws be used on cats to prevent them from
> damaging furniture? Weeks, months, years?

IMO, SoftPaws are a step in the training process. Once the cat learns to use
what belongs to him, they won't be needed.
All cats can be trained. Some are easier than others. Sometimes people just
don't have the time or don't want to (or for some reason can't) put in the
effort to fully train the cat. Sometimes the furniture is just too good to
pass up unless you do something to it to make it not-nice. For these
people/cats/situations, SoftPaws may be needed for the lifetime of the cat.

I have two who really like my couch. For these two, keeping their nails
trimmed closely and keeping up positive reinforcement for using their posts
as well as adversives (such as cirtus-scented sprays) to keep them away from
the couch will need to be done for their lifetimes (or until I get a new
couch with a texture a little less kitty-claw-friendly).

> 4) Do Softclaws work better than just training a cat to use scratching
> posts?

They do best when used in conjunction with training, from what I've
heard/read.
I myself just trim the claws as close to the quick as I can get without
nicking it and they do *very* little damage. Note that my cats are not
allowed to roam outside unattended.

Another note: SoftPaws have no side effects.
Declawing, however, can cause some nasty things if it isn't done perfectly.
And who is perfect? Even vets make mistakes. If done wrong, claws can begin
to regrow into the bone, causing horrible pain and maiming the cat, sometimes
for life. Although no _impartial_ studies can prove it, anecdotal evidence
suggests declawing can also cause behavioral changes in some cats, such as
inappropriate elimination (litterbox avoidance) and increases in displays of
aggression, fear, and anxiety.

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Mary - 18 Apr 2005 16:27 GMT
> > My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> > school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
> > to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a cat.
>
> Wouldn't you think anything is better than mutilating an animal that you're
> supposed to be caring for?

Precisely why I thought it was a stupid question--but hopefully it will
educate some future or present pet owners.
kaeli - 18 Apr 2005 17:15 GMT
> > In article <3e7445e7.0504171627.70c41b30@posting.google.com>,
> littleboyblu87
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Precisely why I thought it was a stupid question--but hopefully it will
> educate some future or present pet owners.

It has been my overwhelming experience that people just don't realize what
declawing IS. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
After all, clinics make a good deal of money from the procedure.

The vast majority I know (or read stuff from, etc) who found out what the
procedure was were horrified and vowed to never do it again, no matter the
cost of a new couch or whatever. Too many people think of it like the removal
of a human fingernail, not realizing the basic anatomy difference that has a
cat's claws attached to bone, not just a nail bed of flesh. If you surgically
remove a human's fingernails, it not that overly traumatic. Icky, but not
that horrific.
Remove their fingers from the last joint down and it's a whole 'nother thing
altogether.
Not to mention the other anatomy differences, such as cats walking on their
toes and all.

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Monique Y. Mudama - 19 Apr 2005 05:02 GMT
> The vast majority I know (or read stuff from, etc) who found out what the
> procedure was were horrified and vowed to never do it again, no matter the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> remove a human's fingernails, it not that overly traumatic. Icky, but not
> that horrific.

Those people must not be thinking very much at all.  If it were like
removing a human's fingernail, the claw would obviously grow back.
Doesn't take much horsepower to figure out there's more going on;
people just aren't applying their brains.

> Remove their fingers from the last joint down and it's a whole 'nother thing
> altogether.
> Not to mention the other anatomy differences, such as cats walking on their
> toes and all.

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kaeli - 19 Apr 2005 13:43 GMT
> Those people must not be thinking very much at all.  If it were like
> removing a human's fingernail, the claw would obviously grow back.

My grandmother had to have a nail removed. They don't grow back.
I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt as to stupidity. That is, I
assume they're too dumb to know better unless they're told. After all, I was.
I didn't know until someone told me, either. Ignorance is bliss, or so they
say.

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Monique Y. Mudama - 19 Apr 2005 14:41 GMT
>> Those people must not be thinking very much at all.  If it were
>> like removing a human's fingernail, the claw would obviously grow
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> After all, I was.  I didn't know until someone told me, either.
> Ignorance is bliss, or so they say.

Ah.  I was thinking of when you hit a finger or toe really hard and
eventually the nail falls off ... those grow back, at least from what
I've seen.

I stand corrected.  Maybe I'm the stupid one this time =)

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kaeli - 19 Apr 2005 16:37 GMT
> >> Those people must not be thinking very much at all.  If it were
> >> like removing a human's fingernail, the claw would obviously grow
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> eventually the nail falls off ... those grow back, at least from what
> I've seen.

Yeah, I've done that. Ouch!

> I stand corrected.  Maybe I'm the stupid one this time =)

Nah. Communication malfunction.
People rarely have fingernails *removed* unless, like my gramma, there is a
real problem with it. Hers got all fudged up somehow (I forget how; it was
quite some time ago) and kept growing into the skin instead of over it like
it was supposed to. Then it would get infected and stuff. So the doctors
eventually just removed it, root and all, so it wouldn't happen again.

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Alison - 18 Apr 2005 17:56 GMT
> My cousin is doing some sort of debate project for one of his high
> school classes and needs some info on Softclaws/Softpaws. He's going
> to debate why Softclaws are better than declawing a cat. So if anyone
> could answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

       How sad that this has to be debated:(   I doubt if many
children over here would know of declawing and if they did,  the
collective response would be UGH !
  Alison
PawsForThought - 18 Apr 2005 18:50 GMT
>>) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most effective) how effective are
Softclaws in preventing cats from damaging furniture?

I've never used Softpaws.  I trim my cats' claws and trained them.  I
have nice furniture that the cats never bother (they've got a nice
floor to ceiling cat tree, scratching posts and scratching pads).
Here's a really good article on declawing in general that might help
provide more information if your cousin needs it:
http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm
Suzanne - 18 Apr 2005 23:11 GMT
I hope your cousin wins the debate and educates all the upcoming
generations of students not to declaw....

I never thought much about declawing until recent years - I always felt
like it was something for elderly ladies with foofy furniture..sort of a
prissy thing to do. If you have a toddler, you keep the cabinets locked and
the electrical outlets covered. If you have a cat - you have to give in a
little and sell the $27,000 rug to a dealer.

Surfing around, I found this site - it's shock value lies in its
simplicity..no fancy graphics. The photos of what declawing really looks
like are horrifying, and the cat looks miserable. I felt ill after seeing
them.

Here's the site, proceed at your own risk:
http://declaw.lisaviolet.com

I can't see how any vet in his right mind would participate in such a cruel
process. There should be a list of vets who refuse to declaw - some sort of
"Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" for vets.

Have to stop writing now... getting too upset again.
Cheryl - 18 Apr 2005 23:32 GMT
> I can't see how any vet in his right mind would participate in
> such a cruel process. There should be a list of vets who refuse
> to declaw - some sort of "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval"
> for vets.

They are the same vets who will insist that your cat needs yearly
vaccinations even when studies have proven that it is overkill, and
subjects the cat to cancer needlessly.

> Have to stop writing now... getting too upset again.

I understand. :(

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Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Brandy Alexandre - 18 Apr 2005 23:36 GMT
Cheryl <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> They are the same vets who will insist that your cat needs yearly
> vaccinations even when studies have proven that it is overkill, and
> subjects the cat to cancer needlessly.

My issue has been vets who won't let your cat in without the
vaccinations.  Kami just doesn't need them.  She doesn't go outside,
she's not around other animals, and they better not be putting her with
other cats at the vet.

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Brandy  Alexandre®
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Well, would you?

Brad - 19 Apr 2005 07:53 GMT


>They are the same vets who will insist that your cat needs yearly
>vaccinations even when studies have proven that it is overkill, and
>subjects the cat to cancer needlessly.


So Cheryl what is the conventional wisdom about vaccinations, I am
waiting for my first cat he is about six weeks old now. I didn't want
to do a search because I just don't want to take a well meaning
posters word for something this important. Is there a website or
reliable info on how often vaccinations are needed. As of this time I
am thinking about only one cat but may get a rescue cat in the future.

So the cat won't be allowed outside and won't be around other animals.

Brad

LIFE'S JOURNEY IS NOT TO ARRIVE AT THE GRAVE SAFELY IN A
WELL-PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT,
SHOUTING... " HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"
PawsForThought - 19 Apr 2005 14:03 GMT
Brad was thinking very hard :

> Is there a website or
> reliable info on how often vaccinations are needed. As of this time I
> am thinking about only one cat but may get a rescue cat in the future.

There are tons of websites about vaccinations.  A good one to start
with is www.catshots.com

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PawsForThought

Cheryl - 20 Apr 2005 02:59 GMT
> So Cheryl what is the conventional wisdom about vaccinations, I
> am waiting for my first cat he is about six weeks old now. I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Brad

I'm still learning about it myself. Paws For Thought gave you a
good link. The studies show that some of the vaccinations that vets
say need to be given yearly really provide protection for up to 7
years. My vet subscribes to the thinking that when they are young
and healthy, do give yearly vaccinations to build immunity. Older
and possibly infirm, do not. My cat Shamrock (3-1/2 years old) is
currently on every 3 years FVRCP vaccinations, 3 year rabies (by
law). He already has auto-immune problems evident in his severe
allergic reactions to something still unknown. So I (with vets
agreement) choose to not subject this indoor cat to yearly
vaccinations. My hope is that by the time he is due again after our
agreed 3 years is up, that she will be more convinced that they
last longer. My kittens (7 months) will get yearly vaccinations for
a couple of years unless, again, something comes up that says the
first set of shots is enough.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-immunize at all. There are some
ickies that you can carry in on your clothes. Feline distemper
(Panleukopenia; the P in FVRCP) can live outside of a host for a
long time (up to a year according to a shelter clinic vet I asked).  
FLV vaccinations shouldn't be given at all unless there is risk;
outdoor cat, cat living with untested cats, cat living with a FLV+
cat (two of mine did live with a FLV+ cat for 1yr/2yr and were
vaccinated while Shadow was alive). Totally skip the FIV
vaccination because it can give false positive results if the cat
is tested later, and it isn't known to be all that effective.

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Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Lesley Madigan - 19 Apr 2005 16:49 GMT
> I can't see how any vet in his right mind would participate in such a cruel
> process. There should be a list of vets who refuse to declaw - some sort of
> "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" for vets.

That's a great idea! There ought to be some sort of scheme where vets
who do not declaw could display a sticker in their window with a logo
which could also be added to their stationery, put in their adverts in
the phone book etc etc. The logo would only have to say something like
"We don't do declaw" (Come on somebody can probably think of a
snappier slogan)

Then people like those on this list could call a vet and ask if they
are in the scheme when choosing a vet. Then you could all vote with
your wallets by refusing the use vets not in the scheme (Okay I
imagine everyone on this list wherever possible refuses to spend money
with a vet that declaws but perhaps the scheme could be used to
educate people who think it's okay to painfully mutilate an innocent
living creature to protect inanimate objects)

As a UK citizen (I am not sure of declawing is actually illegal or
just not routinely done except on medical grounds- I know show cats
are disqualified if they are declawed)it never ceases to upset me that
in some parts of the World people do this sort of thing but as for
vets doing it....

Yeah I've heard the argument that if the owner wants it and will
otherwise put the cat down then the vet is in a quandary but I think
anyone who knowingly approaches a vet for this barbaric practice and
after being advised of the horrible thing that declaw surgery is and
the complications still wants to mutilate an innocent living creature
to protect inaminate objects....

Then sorry the vet should have the right to take the cat off such
owners and they should be done for cruelty.

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous (and sharp clawed) Furballs
kaeli - 19 Apr 2005 18:35 GMT
> Then people like those on this list could call a vet and ask if they
> are in the scheme when choosing a vet. Then you could all vote with
> your wallets by refusing the use vets not in the scheme

Hard to do around here.
I couldn't find a single vet in my area that didn't declaw when I called
around. The one that was listed somewhat nearby was the only one, and that's
not exactly close.

Our vets do anything (legal) for cash (declaws, debarking, cropping, docking,
etc). But they won't treat pets that are badly ill if you don't have cash.
Sad, isn't it?
It's perfectly legal for them to put down your pet if you ask, even if the
pet is perfectly healthy and your reason is "because I don't want it".
And sadly enough, it happens, too.

Even sadder...one of the rescue groups that routinely does adoption shows at
the local Petsmart also routinely declaws ALL kittens because they claim it
is easier to find homes for them that way.
Made me ill.
On a more positive note, another group is so anti-declaw that when they place
their cats in Petsmart, along side them is an explicit (not gory at all, just
has actual illustrations similar to, say, an anatomy drawing) anti-declaw
pamphlet. And they won't adopt to people who plan to declaw. (yay them!)

> As a UK citizen (I am not sure of declawing is actually illegal

FWIU, it is indeed illegal in some places in the UK, such as Britain, unless
*needed* for medical reasons.

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Lesley Madigan - 20 Apr 2005 13:45 GMT
.

> Our vets do anything (legal) for cash (declaws, debarking, cropping, docking,
> etc). But they won't treat pets that are badly ill if you don't have cash.
> Sad, isn't it?
> It's perfectly legal for them to put down your pet if you ask, even if the
> pet is perfectly healthy and your reason is "because I don't want it".
> And sadly enough, it happens, too.

It's awful. Here in the UK we do have "safety nets" for pet lovers who
can't afford a private vet through they can be restrictive (The main
one the PDSA is mainly for people on state benefits)

> Even sadder...one of the rescue groups that routinely does adoption shows at
> the local Petsmart also routinely declaws ALL kittens because they claim it
> is easier to find homes for them that way.
> Made me ill.

I feel sick......

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

> --
KellyH - 20 Apr 2005 21:31 GMT
> Even sadder...one of the rescue groups that routinely does adoption shows
> at
> the local Petsmart also routinely declaws ALL kittens because they claim
> it
> is easier to find homes for them that way.
> Made me ill.

OMG, that is disgusting!!  They have no right calling themselves a rescue.
Who is this group?  I think they should be outed.  I'm sure some of us would
like to give them a piece of their mind!

> On a more positive note, another group is so anti-declaw that when they
> place
> their cats in Petsmart, along side them is an explicit (not gory at all,
> just
> has actual illustrations similar to, say, an anatomy drawing) anti-declaw
> pamphlet. And they won't adopt to people who plan to declaw. (yay them!)

Yes, hooray for them!  I've tried to get the rescue I'm with to take a
firmer anti-declaw stance.  We do not adopt to people who plan to declaw,
although this is left up to the discretion of the adoption counselor.  Some
of us are more anti-declaw than others.  We also have some "what is
declawing?" pamphlets we hand out.  I would like to include a statement with
the adoption paperwork that the adopter will not declaw the cat.

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kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

kaeli - 21 Apr 2005 15:01 GMT
> > Even sadder...one of the rescue groups that routinely does adoption shows
> > at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Who is this group?  I think they should be outed.  I'm sure some of us would
> like to give them a piece of their mind!

I bet.
I'm not sure of the name. I just remember it from one of those times the
local Petsmart had a bunch of people there with cats and kittens. This lady
had a bunch of kittens and ALL of them were already declawed. She said she
always declaws the kittens because they get adopted faster.

To give you an idea of how popular it is here, take a look at this. It costs
more to adopt an already declawed cat from some places. Now, why would that
be unless THEY declawed the cat, hrmmm?  ;)

http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/IL47.html
Cats or Kittens -$95 Already Declawed-$115

http://www.rainshelter.org/Adoption%20Info.htm
Cats  - (over 24 months) not-declawed   $125
Cats  - (over 24 months) front declawed   $150
Cats  - (under 24 months) not declawed   $150
Cats  - (under 24 months) front declawed   $175

For anyone who thinks declawing saves cats from shelters, I ran a petfinder
search for only declawed cats in my area (regional search, all genders, all
ages) and got 444 matches.
The total matches (without the declaw param, all others the same): 450.
Something to think about. Shows both how common it is here and how it sure
didn't help those cats.

> > On a more positive note, another group is so anti-declaw that when they
> > place
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> declawing?" pamphlets we hand out.  I would like to include a statement with
> the adoption paperwork that the adopter will not declaw the cat.

It is far more common to see no-declaw contracts with no-kill shelters. The
kill shelters, like the one in the city, are more worried about the short
term than the long term. I can see their point, I guess, but I think they
should at least educate people about what declawing is and the possible
problems with it if someone indicates they plan to declaw a cat. (I'm just
sayin', since I don't honestly know if they do this now or not)

If someone doesn't want a clawed cat, what will they do when the cat proves
to be inconvenient in other ways, you know? I sure see plenty of declawed
cats in the shelters here, so I'm thinking it didn't benefit them overmuch.

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KellyH - 22 Apr 2005 00:50 GMT
> I bet.
> I'm not sure of the name. I just remember it from one of those times the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that
> be unless THEY declawed the cat, hrmmm?  ;)

That's just awful :(  We have the same fee for clawed and declawed cats.  Of
course, ours come to us that way.  If someone is set on declawing a cat, we
direct them to the declawed cats.
Our local SPCA does include info about declawing, what's involved, how to
train a cat to scratch appropriately, etc.  It's a step in the right
direction.
I still can't get over a rescue declawing cats, especially kittens.

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kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

 
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