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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2005Help! found feral cat and kittens in my garage
There are a couple of feral cats that have been hanging around my yard for a while, one is part siamese, the other an orange cat. I'd been leaving food out for them as they looked pretty skinny. Anyway, yesterday I discovered that the siamese cat with three kittens in a fairly inaccessible corner of my garage. She got scared, hissed at me and ran off. The kittens don't look newborn, but their eyes were still shut so they must be young. I put them on a couple of old towels, and left food and water nearby in case mom came back. I peeked in the garage this morning, and saw part of momma cats leg, so she's back. I couldn't see more, as the area she is in is hidden away. Anyway what should I do about all this? I don't have a problem with them staying there for a while, especially as it's been rainy and miserable here the last few days. My idea is to leave food and water there, then try to catch the kittens when they're older and get them nice homes. As for mom, she's wild, but at least I'd want to capture here for spaying and vaccinations, even if it turns out I can't make a pet of her. Does this sound reasonable? Am I missing anything? Finally, one kitten is a tabby and the other two are white, could the orange cat be the dad? Check your phonebook or with vets for a reputable no kill shelter/rescue. They probably have someone with experience who can help you out with catching them. Your plan is reasonable. Actually, mom cat might be able to be tamed. Many people have had extremely rewarding relationships adopting and socializing a feral. > There are a couple of feral cats that have been hanging around my yard > for a while, one is part siamese, the other an orange cat. I'd been [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > is a tabby and the other two are white, could the orange cat be the > dad? > There are a couple of feral cats that have been hanging around my yard > for a while, one is part siamese, the other an orange cat. I'd been [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > is a tabby and the other two are white, could the orange cat be the > dad? Sounds like a plan to me. Your local Humane Society may have humane, "Have a Heart" traps that they will loan out (for a deposit). Megan (zuzu@webTV.net) knows the most about trapping feral cats, so you may want to talk to her about technique. If the orange cat is hanging around he probably is the father - are you going to try to trap and neuter him also? Hugs, CatNipped >> There are a couple of feral cats that have been hanging around my yard >> for a while, one is part siamese, the other an orange cat. I'd been [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > CatNipped Sorry, that should have been zuzu22@webtv.net. Hugs, CatNipped >Anyway what should I do about all this? If you know for sure the klttens are still in the garage and haven't been moved I would set a live trap (Havahart raccoon size is ideal) in there tonight and get the mother. You can usually rent these traps, borrow them from animal control or a rescue group, or buy them at a feed store. If there is a way to close down your garage so momma cat can't get out *at all* that's even better and will allow you some time if she doesn't go in the trap the first night. If you wait and do nothing now she may move the kittens, it will become harder to trap them all and you could very well end up with *more* kittens before you can catch them all. Use very smelly canned food as bait. Tuna or canned mackeral will work well. To ensure the cat doesn't get the food without springing the trap, when you set the trap, make sure to put a newspaper on the floor of the trap, folded lengthwise so it doesn't touch the sides and covers the trip plate. Often cats will step over the trip plate if they see it and will get the food, but not spring the trap. This is a good precaution to take that will greatly increase the odds that that won't happen. Check the trap often (if you have a window in the garage you can peep through so you don't have to keep going in and out and disturb the mother that would be best) and when the cat is caught immediately cover the trap with a sheet so she doesn't freak out and injure herself. Have either a small room (with *all* items that can be knocked over or broken put away and any hiding spots where you couldn't reach the cat/kittens made inaccessible) or have an *at least* 2'x3' or larger wire dog cage set up and put her in it, then go get the kittens and put them in with mom. If you use a cage you can set the cage up so bedding is in the back and litter is in the front, which will make it easier for you to change litter. Regardless of where you put the cat, you'll probably want to put a layer of dirt on top of the litter as ferals are used to peeing in dirt and often don't understand what the clay is for. Once the cat gets the hang of the litterbox you can switch over to regular litter. It could very well be that this momma cat is not feral and just scared, but either way it is a very rewarding thing to bring such cats in and work with them to get them socialized. If she is feral let us know and we can teach you how to socialize her, at least enough to where she can be out and about in your home. As for the kittens, if you get them inside now they will be easily socialized and adoptable and you can work on finding good homes for them. Maybe you could keep mom and one kitten and find a good home for the other two together? You have options, but the first order of the day is to get these cats inside and safe. It would also be wise to catch the other cat as well and get him fixed so you don't have the same problem all over again. If he's a nice cat you could find a good home for him too. If he's truly feral and you're up for the challenge, you could socialize him as well. The other option is, after getting him neutered and vaccinated, to release him and make sure he has food and shelter. Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > There are a couple of feral cats that have been hanging around my yard > for a while, one is part siamese, the other an orange cat. I'd been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The kittens don't look newborn, but their eyes were still shut so they > must be young. If their eyes are still shut, they're less than 10-12 days old. I put them on a couple of old towels, and left food and > water nearby in case mom came back. I peeked in the garage this > morning, and saw part of momma cats leg, so she's back. I couldn't see [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > is a tabby and the other two are white, could the orange cat be the > dad? What are the chances of closing off the area of your garage where the kittens are until they're old enough to come out to the feeding station and eat on their own? This way you can trap the mother with little worry about the kittens surviving for a day or two without their mother. Otherwise, I would suggest delaying trapping the mother until the kittens are at least three weeks old and have a better chance of surviving for a day without the mother. In the meantime, feed the mother kitten food - it contains more protein and calcium and phosphorus - she needs as much nutrition as she can get while nursing and recovering from birthing. In situations like yours, I generally trap the entire family - its not as difficult as it sounds. You can use the kittens as bait with a drop trap that you can build yourself. Just make sure you put the kittens in a kitty bed in the center of the trap and make sure they're not near the perimeter of the trap when you trigger it. Commercial animal traps are a little dangerous for young kittens because kittens tend to follow each other into the trap - thus when the first kitten triggers the door, it could close on the next kitten injuring her. Most of the time, I don't need a trap to catch kittens. If you think a drop trap would work in your situation, I'll send you the plans along with instructions for transferring the cats to a cage or carrier. If you decide on a commercial trap for mom, and you have a choice, I recommend either a Tru-Catch 36D or Tomahawk 608 or 608.5. All three have vertical sliding rear doors which makes transfers to cages easier. The The Tru-Catch 36D and especially the Tomahawk 608.5 are also excellent recovery cages - the rear door also makes feeding easy. Have a blanket ready - large enough to cover the trap after the cat is in - this dramatically reduces her stress. For bait, try Kentucky Fried Chicken (without the bones) yep - that's right. I and many others have had great luck with KFC! After you trap the mom and *before* you neuter her, use some of her used litter as bait to trap the male(s). After she's neutered, used litter won't work as well. Before you trap the cats, make arrangements with your vet *first* - make sure he'll work with a feral - many don't. If he's familiar with ferals, he'll know you can't exactly make appointments. Ideally, try to find a vet who works with ferals - preferably a vet whose experienced in early-age neutering so you get the kits neutered at 8-12 weeks. Nothing is worse than having a cat in a trap and no vet to neuter her. So make all the arrangements before you even set the trap. Next you'll need a recovery and nursing area - in pinches I use a baby playpen (flea market or garage sale $5- $10) with black construction mesh tacked to the bars and a 1" x 1" frame over the top also covered with construction mesh. The top is secured with hinges on one side and a hook-and-eye lock on the other. You can also cut off the bottoms of a few bars to make sliding a litterbox in and out for cleaning easier. Do the same for food and water bowls. On the other side of the pen, you can place a large carrier with the gate open and tied to the bars. The carrier will not only provide a save haven but will also make releasing mom (if you release her) easier. She'll be used to going into the carrier voluntarily to sleep safely. While she's in, untie the gate and close it with a broomstick - you can follow the same technique with a carrier whether you use a playpen or large cage. The kits are definitely young enough to tame. Don't separate them from each other for at least 8 weeks as this is the socialization period when cats learn to interact with each other. Separating kittens too young will make them difficult to get along with other cats when they older. Also, try to handle the kits as much as possible - this will make them better with humans. Speaking of ferals - I'm late feeding my colony - so I gotta run! I'm sure others here will give you additional information. Best of luck! Phil >What are the chances of closing off the area of your garage where the >kittens are until they're old enough to come out to the feeding station and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >protein and calcium and phosphorus - she needs as much nutrition as she can >get while nursing and recovering from birthing. It would be relatively easy to put up some kind of enclosure to keep the kittens from escaping. It might be difficult to build one high enough to hold mom. I think she entered the garage by way of a side door that often doesn't close properly, I could easily secure it so she couldn't get out. I'll pick up some kitten food later today. >In situations like yours, I generally trap the entire family - its not as >difficult as it sounds. You can use the kittens as bait with a drop trap [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >send you the plans along with instructions for transferring the cats to a >cage or carrier. Please send me the plans and instructions. >After you trap the mom and *before* you neuter her, use some of her used >litter as bait to trap the male(s). After she's neutered, used litter won't >work as well. Will she even know what to do with litter? This is definitely a feral cat. On somebody elses advice a put out a pan of garden soil, don't know if she's used it yet. >Before you trap the cats, make arrangements with your vet *first* - make >sure he'll work with a feral - many don't. If he's familiar with ferals, >he'll know you can't exactly make appointments. OK, I'll do that. Is this the type of situation in which vets tend to offer discounts? I'm thinking that the costs of vaccinations, deworming, spaying, etc for four cats might get expensive. My other concern is if this might affect the health of my cat. The garage is one of his favorite play areas. He hasn't been allowed in there since I discovered the kittens, but he may have had contact before I found them. It's also possible that he may get in again. There's a door between my kitchen and garage which is used several times a day as the washer/dryer, chest freezer, and some hobby materials are all in the garage. If there is further contact what health issues should I be aware of? > >What are the chances of closing off the area of your garage where the > >kittens are until they're old enough to come out to the feeding station and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > door that often doesn't close properly, I could easily secure it so > she couldn't get out. If you can, the best way to go is keeping the family together until the kits are old enough to eat on their own and can survive for a few days without mom. > I'll pick up some kitten food later today. Excellent. Kitten food is the most nutritious - you also may want to add a little vitamin C - but not enough for mom to detect. > >In situations like yours, I generally trap the entire family - its not as > >difficult as it sounds. You can use the kittens as bait with a drop trap [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please send me the plans and instructions. They're on the way in PDF format. Let me know you received them. > >After you trap the mom and *before* you neuter her, use some of her used > >litter as bait to trap the male(s). After she's neutered, used litter won't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cat. On somebody elses advice a put out a pan of garden soil, don't > know if she's used it yet. Urine-saturated dirt or leaves works well, too - probably better. Its the scent of intact female urine that's important. > >Before you trap the cats, make arrangements with your vet *first* - make > >sure he'll work with a feral - many don't. If he's familiar with ferals, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > offer discounts? I'm thinking that the costs of vaccinations, > deworming, spaying, etc for four cats might get expensive. Some vets offer free or very low cost neutering and vaccinations to people and groups who work with ferals and TNR. Some vets even have mobile clinics that service large areas. Let me know your area and I'll try to locate one for you. > My other concern is if this might affect the health of my cat. The > garage is one of his favorite play areas. He hasn't been allowed in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > materials are all in the garage. If there is further contact what > health issues should I be aware of? You probably should continue to restrict his access to the garage until you can have the mom and kits tested when she's neutered. If your cat is an indoor/outdoor cat and up to date on his shots, he should be ok. Even unvaccinated adult cats are highly resistant to FeLV. However, I'd err on the side of caution and keep the cats separated until the new cats are tested. Kitten season is here - so this may not be your last rescue! Your garage may turn out to be a gold mine for trapping females and providing a safe shelter for newborns. If you can trap and neuter more females, you'll be doing Catdom a world of good. You're already off to a great start! Best of luck. Phil > Kitten season is here - so this may not be your last rescue! Your garage > may turn out to be a gold mine for trapping females and providing a safe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Phil Just wanted to chime in and second Phil here. Thank you, Jamie, for doing this! The more people who TNR (Trap/Neuter/Return) the less cats there will be dying horrible deaths in the street or euthanized at shelters. Having feral cats picked up by animal control just doesn't help the problem - it won't even reduce the number of cats in you area since when 10 cats are removed from an area and euthanized, 10 *other* cats will move into the area. Even if you can't "tame" ferals and bring them inside out of harm's way, if you can TNR them they will keep other non-neutered cats out of the area since cats are territorial and eventually the population will be controlled by attrition. Again, thanks - you've doing a wonderful thing! Hugs, CatNipped >Excellent. Kitten food is the most nutritious - you also may want to add a >little vitamin C - but not enough for mom to detect. I got a bag of Nutro kitten food. All along I've been adding cat vitamins, nu-pet, I think it's called, to her food. And I did receive the trap plan, so thanks for that. >Some vets offer free or very low cost neutering and vaccinations to people >and groups who work with ferals and TNR. Some vets even have mobile clinics >that service large areas. Let me know your area and I'll try to locate one >for you. I'm in Vancouver, WA, it's essentially a suburb of Portland, OR, so a group in Portland would work just as well. >You probably should continue to restrict his access to the garage until you >can have the mom and kits tested when she's neutered. If your cat is an >indoor/outdoor cat and up to date on his shots, he should be ok. Even >unvaccinated adult cats are highly resistant to FeLV. However, I'd err on >the side of caution and keep the cats separated until the new cats are >tested. My cat is up to date on all of his vaccinations. My intention is to keep him away from momma and the kittens, but he's a cat, so tricky, and may find a way to sneak by me or my husband. Anyway, thanks to everyone for their advice, and I'll keep you posted as to what happens. > >Some vets offer free or very low cost neutering and vaccinations to people > >and groups who work with ferals and TNR. Some vets even have mobile clinics [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm in Vancouver, WA, it's essentially a suburb of Portland, OR, so a > group in Portland would work just as well. Feral Cat Coalition of Oregon Mobile Hospital - in Portland. They also cover Vancouver, WA. The FCC works with feral and stray cats only and their kittens weighing 2 lbs or more. They charge only $20 and work from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm. Here's their number: (503) 797-2606. Best of luck. Phil I saw someone advising you to trap the whole family, which is good advice. It was NOT good advice to suggest you take the kittens and use them as bait. What you do NOT want to happen is to have the mom abandon the litter. Set the trap a comfortable distance from the kittens with stinky food, catch mom, THEN gather up the helpless kittens and reunite the family in a secure indoor place. You may well find the momcat is not feral, by the way. I hope you call me. I do this sort of thing all the time and want to help you. Sharon Talbert Campus Cats 206-524-7326 >I saw someone advising you to trap the >whole family, which is good advice. Yes, it is important to get the whole family and get them *now.* >It was NOT good advice to suggest you >take the kittens and use them as bait. I agree and also posted a simple plan that would get the mother, and then she could go get the kittens. >What you do NOT want to happen is to >have the mom abandon the litter. Set the >trap a comfortable distance from the >kittens with stinky food, catch mom, >THEN gather up the helpless kittens and >reunite the family in a secure indoor >place. You may well find the momcat is >not feral, by the way. ITA with everything you said and posted the same. There is no sense in waiting and risking abandonment or worse, that the mother would move the kittens. I hope the OP contacts you for further assistance since you are close to her area. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >I saw someone advising you to trap the > >whole family, which is good advice. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I agree and also posted a simple plan that would get the mother, and > then she could go get the kittens. I see you've never used a drop trap either. Phil wrote: >I see you've never used a drop trap either. This situation doesn't call for one, and you're making the OP jump through a bunch of unnecessary hoops and putting the entire effort at risk by your recommendations. The simplest and quickest way to resolve this situation is to trap the mother while she's in the garage, pick up the kittens (which is at this point easy as they are still young and helpless) and put them back with mom in her new digs. Getting them inside and safe is crucial, and since they'll be inside the spay for mom can wait until the kittens are weaned. Telling someone to wait to get the kittens and mom is stupid when they have at this moment ready access to the kittens and the ability to shut the whole bunch in the garage until mom is trapped. There's no good reason to wait and risk mom finding a way out and moving the kittens, or risk her getting pregnant again while still nursing and having another litter somewhere else, or risk waiting until the kittens are older and have started to learn to be afraid of humans, thereby making socialization and trapping more difficult. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > >I see you've never used a drop trap either. > > This situation doesn't call for one, and you're making the OP jump > through a bunch of unnecessary hoops and putting the entire effort at > risk by your recommendations. Idiot. > Idiot. Because you know so much about TNR. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > Idiot. > > Because you know so much about TNR. No, because she is an idiot. And because Phil is much more involved in what you must call TNR than she is. He knows what he is talking about. If you don't know that, you're an idiot too. But then you seem to be able to read the group without ever actually knowing what is posted in the group, Ms. "I guess I didn't follow it that closely." No, because she is an idiot. And because Phil is much more involved in what you must call TNR than she is. He knows what he is talking about. If you don't know that, you're an idiot too. But then you seem to be able to read the group without ever actually knowing what is posted in the group, Ms. "I guess I didn't follow it that closely." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm posting thru Google because I'm out of town, just getting that out of the way. "What I must call TNR"... WTF is that supposed to mean? Both Megan and Phil helped me when I was trapping to get Antonio back. They both appear to be knowledgeable about the topic. If the positions they were taking on this situation were reversed, you would still be back Phil and bashing Megan. Phil good, Megan bad in Mary World. Both opinions seem equally valid. The momma and kittens are in the OP's garage, which she can close off, so it's not as time sensitive as if they were outside. The kittens are too young to be walking, so I don't really see what the danger in using a regular trap would be. But, it would be less stressful to do the whole-family trap Phil suggested. But not everyone is up for building that trap, has the time, etc. It can go either way, IMHO. -Kelly > No, because she is an idiot. And because Phil is much > more involved in what you must call TNR than she is. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "What I must call TNR"... WTF is that supposed to mean? I hate acronyms. > Both Megan and Phil helped me when I was trapping to get Antonio back. I remember that. > They both appear to be knowledgeable about the topic. If the positions > they were taking on this situation were reversed, you would still be > back Phil and bashing Megan. You think? >Phil good, Megan bad in Mary World. Both > opinions seem equally valid. Phil's advice on every topic is almost always better than Megan's, in my opinion, which has been formed by reading this group most days for years. He gives specific rescue/vet information to people who need it, including addresses and telephone numbers for help in their area. He gives specific nutrient information for specific cat foods. He gives specific formulae for weight loss, instead of a.shole Megan, who requires people to email her or call her because he needs the attention. His advice regarding specific illnesses and treatments for those illnesses, including his specific suggestions for my cat's thyroid problem is head and shoulders above any advice your darling Megan offers. My vet wanted to do surgery, then wanted to do the radioactive iodine too soon--Phil and Maurice's advice saved my cat a lot of discomfort, at the very least. Megan never offers any advice like this. As far as the trapping, neutering, and releasing of cats, she rarely posts anything at all about this, but Phil does, and in detail. The momma and kittens are in the OP's > garage, which she can close off, so it's not as time sensitive as if > they were outside. The kittens are too young to be walking, so I don't > really see what the danger in using a regular trap would be. Phil already addressed this. It is not safe for kittens. But, it > would be less stressful to do the whole-family trap Phil suggested. > But not everyone is up for building that trap, has the time, etc. It > can go either way, IMHO. Shouldn't you be talking to Phil? kelly@farringtons.net wrote:--- > I'm posting thru Google because I'm out of town, just getting that out > of the way. > > "What I must call TNR"... WTF is that supposed to mean? It means she doesn't know what "TNR" stands for. > Both Megan and Phil helped me when I was trapping to get Antonio back. > They both appear to be knowledgeable about the topic. If the positions [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -Kelly Megan has a really good point though - you can easily buy or borrow a live trap and get the job done in less than a day. Why build something when you don't need to? It's a no-brainer, really - trap Mom, transfer he to a transport cage or wherever you're going to keep her, pick up the kittens and put them in with her. If we were talking about a nest in the wild, Phil might have a point. And I don't know anybody who manages a feral colony that doesn't trap during "kitten season". Especially since "kitten season" can be any time of year in many parts of the US. Always better to get a pregnant queen before she has the kits, than to wait until afterward. -L. Why build > something when you don't need to? You don't have to "build" a drop trap if you don't want to. Since the cats are indoors - you can use a large cardboard box. When I was a kid, we used trap cats (so AC wouldn't get them) with propped up wooden milk crates - if the cats weren't too big. > And I don't know anybody who manages a feral colony that doesn't trap > during "kitten season". I didn't say don't trap during kitten season, I said don't use *live traps* during kitten season. Drop traps and nets are more selective - and the cats don't become trapwise - which becomes very important when you have to retrap them at a later date. Phil wrote: >I didn't say don't trap during kitten >season, That's exactly what you said. >I said don't use *live traps* during kitten >season. No, you didn't. You specifically said that "experienced trappers you know don't trap during kitten season." That was all you said, with no caveats. Furthermore, in another thread you've just completely contradicted yourself and told someone to trap a pregnant feral (it's kitten season, too, in case you didn't know...) No recommendation for a drop trap or net either, which in many situations are completely unrealistic anyway. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray I wrote: >You specifically said that "experienced >trappers you know don't trap during kitten >season." I did not quote that properly and will correct that here. See Phil? I don't have a problem admitting a mistake. This was the correct quote from you: "Many trappers don't set live traps during kitten season for *two* reasons. The first is because live traps can seriously injure kittens -who tend to follow each other into the traps injuring the second kitten when the trap door slams shut on her, and the second is because of the risk of trapping a nursing momcat who has newborn kittens hidden somewhere. Didn't think of that, did you?" Again, you see there was no discussion of alternatives. It's not until way down in the thread that in your response to Sharon you mention what "you" would do if you "had to" trap during kitten season, although walking up to feral cats outdoors and getting close enough to net them is highly questionable and unlikely to be successful in most cases. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > I wrote: > >You specifically said that "experienced [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I did not quote that properly and will correct that here. See Phil? I > don't have a problem admitting a mistake. Its not that simple with you. Anybody else, maybe, but not you. You were deliberately trying to discredit me - that's no mistake. This was the correct quote > from you: > > "Many trappers don't set live traps during kitten season I know what I said and I know what I do. > walking up to feral cats outdoors and getting close enough to net them > is highly questionable and unlikely to be successful in most cases. Maybe for you. If you can't get close enough with a net, you can use a drop trap and stay further away. I just have a knack for getting close to ferals. Sometimes I even spray my clothes with catnip spray or Feliway -masks my scent and attracts the cats. I've even had hard ferals walk right up to me while I was setting the traps. When I use live traps - I spray the traps too. Ever try that? > Phil wrote: > >I didn't say don't trap during kitten [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know don't trap during kitten season." That was all you said, with no > caveats. f.cking liar. Here's the post and the message ID: "This is one of the reasons why most experienced trappers don't set live traps during kitten season." and another: "Many trappers don't set live traps during kitten > season for *two* reasons. > Furthermore, Yeah furthermore, FOAD you sleazy lying manipulator. Phil wrote: >f.cking liar. In your attack frenzy you apparently failed to see my correction which was posted long before your response. HTH. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > >f.cking liar. > > In your attack frenzy you apparently failed to see my correction which > was posted long before your response. HTH. And yet ... you are still a liar. > Phil wrote: > >f.cking liar. > > In your attack frenzy you apparently failed to see my correction which > was posted long before your response. I just saw it. Maybe that will teach you to think twice before you try to denigrate someone. > I didn't say don't trap during kitten season, I said don't use *live > traps* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > retrap > them at a later date. I have to agree here. Last year I posted in another group about trying to trap "little gray cat with the too tight flea collar". From September to November last year I had a (borrowed) Havahart trap out, off and on, for the whole three months. As soon as the trap went out she disappeared. I trapped any number of other animals from raccoons to possums to the neighbors' cats, but she not only didn't get trapped, she didn't even come to eat while the trap was out, so she either foraged somewhere else or went hungry. She did eventually come back to the feeding station again after I quit putting out the trap. When she did come back she was obviously very pregnant. She started showing up regularly again in the early mornings and in the early evenings waiting for me to put out the food. I even got her used to me to the point where I could sit very still, looking down at my feet and not at her, and she would come to within 5 feet of me to eat. Then I asked for help from this NG in trapping her. When asked, I gave a certain person my phone number (big mistake) so I could get very specific instructions in case I was doing something wrong the first time. I followed those instructions *to the letter*. I went out and bought a raccoon-sized Havahart trap (*much* more expensive than I was told it should be, BTW), disguised it with bushes, put cardboard over the trap lever, tied open the door with a bungee cord, put smelly food a few feet away so she would get used to the trap while eating... in other words, I did *everything* I was told to do. Guess what - the very first day I put the "disguised" trap out she disappeared and I haven't seen her since even though I picked the trap back up again after three days. Now, not only is she still out on her own and pregnant, but she doesn't even have a reliable source of food since I've scared her away. I feel really bad about that! Hugs, CatNipped > > I didn't say don't trap during kitten season, I said don't use *live > > traps* [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have a reliable source of food since I've scared her away. I feel really > bad about that! Poor little thing. You did your best, as you could not know that Rabid Megan is not quite the "expert" she would have everyone believe she is. > kelly@farringtons.net wrote:--- > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It means she doesn't know what "TNR" stands for. Heh. Yep, that must be it. > > Both Megan and Phil helped me when I was trapping to get Antonio > back. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > -L. You don't know much, Lynnie. You just think you do. > Phil wrote: > >I see you've never used a drop trap either. > > This situation doesn't call for one, It certainly does. You can't understand that because you're not familiar and/or experienced with drop traps. With a drop trap she can trap the whole family at once. The drop trap will also serve as pen while mom nurses the kits until they're old enough to survive a day or two without the mom while she's being neutered. > The simplest and quickest way to resolve this situation is to trap the > mother while she's in the garage, No sh.t. The smarter play is trapping the whole family in a drop trap at the same time. The garage will be sealed, so I don't know what you're talking about. Do you? Phil wrote: <snip> You're wrong. It doesn't get simpler than that. There is no reason to handle the kittens and risk upsetting the mother when one doesn't have to. There's also no reason to go through all that building when you can buy a trap and catch the mother the same night. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > <snip> > You're wrong. I doubt it. This is a tried and proven technique that has been used successfully many times by myself and others as well for trapping families. I don't see how you can say a technique that works but you've never tried - and apparently know nothing about - is wrong. There is no reason to > handle the kittens and risk upsetting the mother when one doesn't have > to. Taking the kittens away from the momcat and trying to trap her in a live trap is much more stressful for mom. With a drop trap, she can see and approach her kits with no fear since she doesn't have to 'enter' anything. If you saw a drop trap in action you'd understand -- but then again, maybe not. There's also no reason to go through all that building when you can > buy a trap and catch the mother the same night. Do you actually think a momcat is going to think about food and will go for the bait inside a live trap after her kits have just disappeared??? I thought you had more experience with new moms to know better - apparently you don't. The only thing she'll be worrying about are her kits. The kits are still too young to be separated from mom until she can be trapped - which can take a day or a few days or even longer -especially since she'll be worried and stressed about her kits. The drop trap traps the whole family the quickest and with the least amount of stress. Its as simple as that. Phil wrote: >Taking the kittens away from the >momcat and trying to trap her in a live >trap is much more stressful for mom. Nobody advised doing that. Learn to read. The advice all along, from both Sharon and I, has been to trap the mother *first*, then get the kittens (who are tucked away, don't have their eyes open yet and aren't running around) and put them back in with mom. All the OP needs to accomplish this is a trap and some stinky food. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray The advice all along, from > both Sharon and I, has been to trap the mother *first*, then get the > kittens (who are tucked away, don't have their eyes open yet Setting a live trap near very young kittens is very bad and potentially very dangerous advice. Obviously, you've never seen the damage a trap door can do to a young kitten. This is one of the reasons why most experienced trappers don't set live traps during kitten season. You can't understand the swiftness, simplicity, and safety of a drop trap in a kitten situation because you've never used one and apparently don't understand the concept. Jamie knows her situation and knows if a drop trap can used in that situation. If it can't, I would rather see her use a net since the momcat can't go anywhere. Phil wrote: >Setting a live trap near very young >kittens is very bad and potentially very >dangerous advice. First of all, nobody recommended setting the trap ner the kittens. The OP can put it on the other side of the garage, and I believe Sharon already addressed that. Second, the kittens eyes aren't even opened and they're not going to be running or even crawling into atrap anytime soon. It would be a simple thin for the OP to put a small barrier that the mother can go over (a 2x4 for example) in front of the small area where they are. >Obviously, you've never seen the >damage a trap door can do to a young >kitten. This is one of the reasons why >most experienced trappers don't set live >traps during kitten season. You've got to be kidding. Of course experienced trappers set live traps during kitten season. You make it very clear you have NO idea what you're talking about. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray "Ifs" snipped > >Obviously, you've never seen the > >damage a trap door can do to a young [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > during kitten season. You make it very clear you have NO idea what > you're talking about. No, Megan, this time *you* made it very clear *you* have no idea what *you're* talking about. Many trappers don't set live traps during kitten season for *two* reasons. The first is because live traps can seriously injure kittens -who tend to follow each other into the traps injuring the second kitten when the trap door slams shut on her, and the second is because of the risk of trapping a nursing momcat who has newborn kittens hidden somewhere. Didn't think of that, did you? Just curious - what is reward in rescuing feral cats. Do they become more tame or "grateful" over time..Is there a cut-off point for kittens - after a few months in "the wild" will they always be "different".. Do ferals ever approach humans in public locations like parks, beaches for food, or even affection? Do released house pets become feral after time..or are they eaten alive by vicious colonies? Are there squads of rescuers roaming the countryside in the middle of the night saving these animals.. Just curious - not ready to join the rescue squads just yet!! The first is because live traps can seriously > injure kittens -who tend to follow each other into the traps injuring the > second kitten when the trap door slams shut on her, and the second is > because of the risk of trapping a nursing momcat who has newborn kittens > hidden somewhere. Didn't think of that, did you? These concerns don't apply in this situation. First, the trap could easily be placed in an area of the garage that would be inaccessible to the kittens but easily accessible to momcat. After all, these kittens are so young that their eyes are closed, and therefore would barely be able to crawl. Second, there should be no fear of trapping the "wrong" cat -- or of having the kittens "hidden somewhere" -- if the OP will just close the garage door (and any other entries, such as windows)while momcat is inside and then set the trap. Other cats would not have access to the trap. Obviously, the OP should check the trap *very* frequently to avoid separating her from the kittens, but they certainly can't be hidden elsewhere if the garage is closed off first. MaryL Phil, I've been working with feral cats since 1988 and have never had a kitten injured in a trap. sharon > "Ifs" snipped > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > because of the risk of trapping a nursing momcat who has newborn kittens > hidden somewhere. Didn't think of that, did you? > Phil, I've been working with feral cats since 1988 and have never had a > kitten injured in a trap. Since 1988! That's a pretty long time. I commend you - I really do. I've been working with strays and ferals since about 1960-61 - with about 4 years off. I know of many people who had kitten injuries during trapping - that's precisely why I don't advise setting live traps during kitten season. There's also the risk of trapping a nursing mom, and either having to release her to nurse her hidden kits and risk never retrapping her, or risking the death of her kits. If trapping *must* be done during kitten season, I use a Duraflex net, or a throw net or a drop or bag trap. Actually, I'm pretty good with a net! ;-) >No, Megan, this time *you* made it very >clear *you* have no idea what *you're* >talking about. Yes, I do. You just hate it when someone is right in telling you you're wrong. I'm not the only one. I see Sharon Talbert posted and she agrees with me. Are you going to start being nasty to her too and tell her she doesn't know what she's talking about? >Many trappers don't set live >traps during kitten season for *two* [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >momcat who has newborn kittens hidden >somewhere. Didn't think of that, did you? That's utter bullshit. In fact, I think I'll forward your post to the FCC and ACA and ask them for commentary. When they're done laughing hysterically at your claim that "experienced trappers don't trap during kitten season" they'll likely tell you you're full of sh.t and you don't know what you're talking about. I've trapped kittens many times, including more than one at the same time, and in all the years I have been doing this there has NEVER been an injury. If you're injuring kittens all the time then you're doing something wrong. Second, if you catch a nursing mom (easy to check - just look at her from the underside of the trap) it's a simple thing to let her go and try to catch her again later. Didn't think of that did you? Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >No, Megan, this time *you* made it very > >clear *you* have no idea what *you're* > >talking about. > > Yes, I do. You just hate it when someone is right in telling you you're > wrong. Too bad you're not and that someone ain't you... But its fun to watch you try so desperately. I'm not the only one. I see Sharon Talbert posted and she agrees > with me. I respect her opinion even though I don't agree with it. Whereas I have little, if any respect for yours. > Are you going to start being nasty to her too and tell her she > doesn't know what she's talking about? Not unless she stoops to your level and tells me that I don't know what I'm talking about like you did. In your psychotic, frustrated frenzy, you seem to have forgotten that *you* opened the rounds of 'you don't know what you're talking about'... and my advice was "stupid". LOL! > >Many trappers don't set live > >traps during kitten season for *two* [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > kitten season" they'll likely tell you you're full of sh.t and you don't > know what you're talking about. Now, be sure to word your query carefully so you get the reply you want. Nevertheless, I'd be interested in their opinion - not that it would change mine. I already know ACA advises against trapping nursing moms and releasing intact cats with the hopes of retrapping them. I've trapped kittens many times, > including more than one at the same time, and in all the years I have > been doing this there has NEVER been an injury. Suuuure.... You wouldn't admit it if you had an injury! You're too desperate to prove me wrong! LOL! You live and work in a vaccum - and not with any groups (can't imagine why..LOL), but I do - and I know of *many* instances where kittens were injured in live traps -- that's precisely *why* I advise against setting live traps during kitten season. If you're injuring > kittens all the time then you're doing something wrong. Yeah, like setting traps during kitten season. That's why I don't. Second, if you > catch a nursing mom (easy to check - just look at her from the underside > of the trap) it's a simple thing to let her go and try to catch her > again later. Didn't think of that did you? *Long* before you did! Only I thought it through to conclusion... which you haven't. The problem with your brainstorm - which didn't occur to you - is that trapping and releasing her makes her *trapwise* and very difficult to retrap. Trapwise cats can take months to *never* to retrap and in the interim have several litters. Since you brought up ACA, here's what they say about releasing intact cats and trying to retrap them: "*Don't -Release an unsterilized cat that you trapped involuntarily. You may never catch that cat again!" http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/trapguidelines.pdf Didn't think of that did you? No, but its a pleasure to enlighten you. Also, this is what ACA says about trapping nursing females: "*Don't* Trap a nursing female. Her kittens can die from exposure and/or starvation in her absence." http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/trapguidelines.pdf Now, how do avoid trapping a nursing mom, huh, Einstein??? The only way is by not setting live traps during kitten season! *Also*, the stress of trapping can cause serious complications in a pregnant cat. *Also* many cats injure themselves in violent attempts to escape - not good for a pregnant cat, either. Didn't think of that did you? No, but its a pleasure to enlighten you. Had enough? Or do you still want to show me how little you know and how inexperienced you really are? Phil wrote: >> I see Sharon Talbert posted and she >> agrees >> with me. > I respect her opinion even though I > don't agree with it. Whereas I have > little, if any respect for yours. Since her and my opinion are the same you don't have much choice. >> Are you going to start being nasty to >> her too and tell her she doesn't know >> what she's talking about? > Not unless she stoops to your level and > tells me that I don't know what I'm > talking about like you did. She in effect did and said you gave bad advice, which you did. <snip> >> That's utter bullshit. In fact, I think >> I'll forward your post to the FCC and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> you don't know what you're talking >> about. > I already know ACA advises against > trapping nursing moms and releasing > intact cats with the hopes of retrapping > them. Yes, but we're not talking about *intentionally* trapping a nursing mother during kitten season. The fact of the matter is (and if you really worked with ferals you would know this) that on occasion you don't always get the cat you want. If it's intact I'll get it fixed anyway, but if a nursing mother is caught she gets released. There really is no other option. sh.t happens. The "possibility" that a nursing mother "might" be caught in a trap in no way, shape or form justifies not trapping during kitten season. By implementing such a policy you guarantee that more pregnancies and births occur. For you to promote *more* pregnancies and births is ridiculous. >> I've trapped kittens many times, >> including more than one at the same >> time, and in all the years I have been >> doing this there has NEVER been an >> injury. > Suuuure.... You wouldn't admit it if you > had an injury! Sure I would. Unlike you, I don't have a problem with admitting such things. The fact is that I've never had a kitten get injured from a trap. >I know of > *many* instances where kittens were > injured in live traps -- that's > precisely *why* I advise against setting > live traps during kitten season. And by doing so you foolishly promote "more" pregnancies and births. That's not very smart. >trapping and releasing her makes > her *trapwise* and very difficult to > retrap. Difficult does not mean impossible. I've retrapped several trapwise cats. >Trapwise cats can take months to > *never* to retrap and in the interim > have several litters. Like all those cats you refuse to trap and fix during kitten season, resulting in more pregnancies and more cats? > Since you brought up ACA, here's what > they say about releasing intact cats and > trying to retrap them: > "*Don't -Release an unsterilized cat > that you trapped involuntarily. You may > never catch that cat again!" Nice try, but we aren't talking about intentionally releasing an intact cat just for the hell of it. > Also, this is what ACA says about > trapping nursing females: > "*Don't* Trap a nursing female. Her > kittens can die from exposure and/or > starvation in her absence." We already know that too. We are talkng about accidentally trapping a nursing female, which can happen even when the utmost care is taken not to. In those instances you don't really have a choice but to release them. > Now, how do avoid trapping a nursing > mom, huh, Einstein??? The only way is > by not setting live traps during kitten > season! Uh huh, and in doing so you allow all other cats in the area to remain intact and spend months and months procreating and increasing the population. You also seem to forget that in some areas of the country "kitten season" is year round. Even here in Minnesota I've seen kittens born in January. So in effect you are saying that trapping should never be done since there is a possibility you'll catch a nursing mother. It's a shame you're so blinded by rage you can't grasp the meaning and serious consequences of your ignorant insistence on putting a moratorium on TNR for 7 -12 months of the year. > *Also*, the stress of trapping can cause > serious complications in a pregnant cat. I've trapped pregnant cats and they've done just fine. One of them still lives with me, as do some of her kittens (the others were adopted). There were no complications and all the kittens were healthy. You are also forgetting that if a cat isn't too far along they should be spayed anyway so pregnancy complications become a non-issue. > *Also* many cats injure themselves in > violent attempts to escape - not good > for a pregnant cat, either. If you're doing it right, you cover the trap and they settle down fairly quickly. In all the years I've been trapping I've never had a feral cat suffer anything more than a scraped nose. Apparently, since you're seeing all these serious injuries, you're not doing that right either (if you're doing it at all.) Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >> I already know ACA advises against > trapping nursing moms and releasing > intact cats with the hopes of retrapping >> them. >Yes, but we're not talking about *intentionally* trapping a nursing >mother during kitten season. Lame attempt at manipulating my meaning and ACA's meaning... I was expecting you to try to manipulate their statement -- its your style. You brought ACA up - now you're trying to manipulate the meaning of their statement because it makes you look like an a.shole. Of course no one should intentionally trap a nursing mom during kitten season. But the risk of trapping a nursing mom in a live trap is very high during kitten season - which means the mom would have to be released to prevent the death of her kittens. Both of ACA's statements go together: "*Don't -Release an unsterilized cat that you trapped involuntarily. You may never catch that cat again!" http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/trapguidelines.pdf "involuntarily" means trapping a nuring mom.... "*Don't* Trap a nursing female. Her kittens can die from exposure and/or starvation in her absence." http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/trapguidelines.pdf With a live trap, you *can't* avoid trapping a nursing mom and having to release her. The *only* exception where you could possibly neuter and release her would be if you knew the age of the kittens - and if they're old enough to survive for a day without their mom - or if you knew the location of the kittens, you could take them all in and keep them together until the kits are old enough to survive a day or two without. But that's *it*. You can manipulate the meanings all you want - but that about sums it up. You don't have to like it. >The fact of the matter is (and if you really worked with ferals "IF"? f.ck you you low-life toilet cleaning collector. I've been saving ferals for longer than you've been breathing - and I've saved more ferals than all the other peoples' toilets you'll clean in your entire miserable life. This really isn't about the cats' welfare for you - You just can't handle being outgunned - especially by a man - you're just obsessed with trying to prove me wrong! Forget it - you don't have the knowledge or experience. Now f.ck off and go take care of your 23 cats in your dingy little one bedroom apartment. Phil wrote: <snip lame attempt to avert attention from the real issue> This is typical of you Phil, and I see that you've now limited yourself to pathetic personal attacks since you can't refute my points. I didn't "manipulate" words, but I certainly did address your attempt to manipulate them. Since you weren't able to deny the logical points I made you make it clear that you have no problem allowing countless pregnancies and births to occur in the name of "not trapping during kitten season" which, again, can occur year round. That's not the act of someone that is knowledgeable or cares about feral cats. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray you make it clear that you have no problem allowing countless > pregnancies and births to occur in the name of "not trapping during > kitten season" WTF are you talking about, you lying, sleazy, manipulating low-life? I think you need to find another job where your head isn't buried in peoples' toilets all day, because your head is full of sh.t. I never said "not trapping during kitten season" you f.cking manipulator - Throughout this entire debate I've been saying don't use LIVE TRAPS during kitten season - You missed that in your frenzy to try to prove me wrong - which you can't do. There are other ways - *selective* ways of trapping cats and kittens during kitten season without *any* risks that you obviously know absolutely *nothing* about. You don't even know what a drop trap is - and that's the most basic and simple trap there is! A drop trap, a.shole, is basically nothing more than a box propped up on one side by a stick with a long cord attached to it! When you absorb that, I'll teach you what a bag trap and Duraflex net are. > That's not the act of someone that is knowledgeable or cares about feral > cats. Yeah sure. I'm sure everyone believes that.... You've certainly showed how knowledgeable you are about trapping ferals - you don't even know what a simple drop trap is!!! ROTFL. Now, go stick your head back in a toilet where you usually keep it > you make it clear that you have no problem allowing countless > > pregnancies and births to occur in the name of "not trapping during [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you need to find another job where your head isn't buried in peoples' > toilets all day Okay, I'll bite. Does Megan clean houses for a living?? > Okay, I'll bite. Does Megan clean houses for a living?? Yes. Hugs, CatNipped Phil wrote: <snip pathetic and lame personal attack> I'm curious, Phil. Do you have someone come in and clean your house? If so I hope they don't read the newsgroups and see what you think of them. It's hilarious and simpleminded that you would devolve into attacking my profession, but it shows just how desperate you are when you attack the messenger because you can't attack the message. I'm curious as to how you've come to the conclusion that cleaning houses is a profession that is worthy of derision? I think if you were to ask anyone in this group, the majority of people would absolutely love to have someone come in regularly and clean their house. I know my clients do, and they often tell me how much I'm appreciated. I'd love to hire a cleaning lady and not have to do it myself, but I'd rather spend the money on my cats. But hey, if it makes you feel better to focus in on a minute part of what cleaning houses entails because you have no valid response to my points, you go right ahead. It just makes you look stupid. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > <snip pathetic and lame personal attack> I thought he was spot on. > I'm curious, Phil. Do you have someone come in and clean your house? If > so I hope they don't read the newsgroups and see what you think of them. > It's hilarious and simpleminded that you would devolve into attacking my > profession, but it shows just how desperate you are when you attack the > messenger because you can't attack the message. Megan--you do this very thing ALL the time. LOL attack the > messenger because you can't attack the message. I don't know where you've been - but I did attack the message - and successfully. > Phil wrote: > <snip lame attempt to avert attention from the real issue> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Megan And once again you rabid cow, you simply cannot make something true by saying it. Phil demonstrates who he is and how he helps cats every day in here. Just as you demonstrate who you, regrettably ,are--an embittered, defensive crone who is so pathetically insecure you cannot bear opposition for an instant. > "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do > nothing." [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - W.H. Murray > >> I already know ACA advises against > > trapping nursing moms and releasing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lame attempt at manipulating my meaning and ACA's meaning... I was > expecting you to try to manipulate their statement -- its your style. This is true. It's the last refuge of those who are arguing the inarguable. :) You > brought ACA up - now you're trying to manipulate the meaning of their > statement because it makes you look like an a.shole. Of course no one [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > "IF"? f.ck you you low-life toilet cleaning collector. I personally think this is a fair response to Megan's statement. Let the record show it. :) It is clear to everyone who reads the group regularly what you do for cats. I've been saving > ferals for longer than you've been breathing - and I've saved more ferals > than all the other peoples' toilets you'll clean in your entire miserable [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now f.ck off and go take care of your 23 cats in your dingy little one > bedroom apartment. If only she could grow a sense of humor she might laugh at herself. I hate to see Megan, who has so little, deprived of this, one of my main sources of amusement these days. :P > > >No, Megan, this time *you* made it very > > >clear *you* have no idea what *you're* [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Had enough? Or do you still want to show me how little you know and how > inexperienced you really are? If Megan were really sure of what she is doing she would not be so defensive and go so ballistic over differing opinions. > > > >No, Megan, this time *you* made it very > > > >clear *you* have no idea what *you're* [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > If Megan were really sure of what she is doing she would not be so > defensive and go so ballistic over differing opinions. Its much more than that. She's been trying to prove me wrong and discredit me for *years* because she can't stand being outgunned by a man. That's why she calls me a "misogynist" - and also to incite the women in the group. I'm telling you, she's vicious and malicious. I may be a prick at times, but she's naturally plain vicious - that's why she goes through Google trying to find dirt to use against people and then tries to discredit them. > Its much more than that. She's been trying to prove me wrong and discredit > me for *years* because she can't stand being outgunned by a man. That's why > she calls me a "misogynist" - and also to incite the women in the group. I imagine Megan has not had very good experiences with men. > I'm telling you, she's vicious and malicious. LOL! You're telling ME?! Ahaha! > I may be a prick at times Me too. Better to be one than to have one I say! ;) , but she's naturally plain vicious - that's why > she goes through Google trying to find dirt to use against people and then > tries to discredit them. Yeah, I especially hate that kind of behavior. Happily, she had been coming out as the desperate, vicious little miserable thing that she is. People can see it. They aren't stupid. >> I may be a prick at times > > Me too. Better to be one than to have one I say! ;) I don't know, Mary, sometimes it's *good* to have one! Haven't you ever heard that a hard man is good to find???! ;> Hugs, CatNipped > >> I may be a prick at times > > > > Me too. Better to be one than to have one I say! ;) > > I don't know, Mary, sometimes it's *good* to have one! Haven't you ever > heard that a hard man is good to find???! ;> Um. I personally am shocked. :) I meant to actually have one permanently attached to one's person. As opposed to temporarily. Now go do 200 Hail Marys. :) I've always liked that one. Phil, the kittens are newborns; their eyes aren't open yet. They aren't going anywhere on their own. As for setting the trap close to the den, that is not my advice, as it might alarm the mom enough to move the litter or (worse) attract another animal. sharon talbert campus cats > The advice all along, from >> both Sharon and I, has been to trap the mother *first*, then get the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > situation. If it can't, I would rather see her use a net since the momcat > can't go anywhere. |
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