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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2005Outdoor cat poisoning - report back
OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response: Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never seen a case. That's never. However, it is an issue in the UK, where he has also practised, and where it is the leading cause of cat poisoning. It makes sense that this is probably a climate issue - the UK is colder, people are more likely to have antifreeze around and use it. The leading cause of cat poisoning in New Zealand is paracetamol, given by ignorant owners. He has referred me to the Vet Poisoning Information Service, a British organisation, for more info, which I shall look up when I have more time. But he also said poisoning is not the issue with cats that it is for dogs simply because cats don't eat everything they encounter, and that if I check out the VPIS, I will see that cat poisoning hardly rates. Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started having a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would have to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of the newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels, but New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country. He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times. > OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of > managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times. ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of you go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls and chains off first!). Hugs, CatNipped > ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue > has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of > you > go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls > and > chains off first!). So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in people's mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them. > > ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue > > has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in people's > mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them. I see you snipped out the section of your post I was responding to. Here I'll add it back so you can read it again (not that I think that will help!)... Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times. " Care to interpret that differently than the way it did??? Hugs, CatNipped > Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the > American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all > times. > " > > Care to interpret that differently than the way it did??? He's not impressed. That doesn't mean he's telling you what to do - which appears to be a concept a few posters here have difficulty with. He would do it differently, that doesn't mean you have to. If you're genuinely interested in reading a dispassionate debate of the pros and cons of both indoors and outdoors, you might try reading this, which I found while searching for the VPIS (which it appears you can't get the data from unless you're a vet): http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html > > Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the > > American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them in or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational skills. You can do what you like, obviously, but don't try to convince anyone with either of those assets that letting cats outside is a good idea. Anthropomorphize as much as you like about how cats, like humans, "need to be free to roam". Cats are *NOT* human, can be perfectly happy inside 24/7 and certainly can *only* be safe from outside dangers if they *are* kept inside 24/7. Come back here, like *SO* many others have who let their cats roam outside, and post to the group about how upset you are that you've found your "beloved" kitty lying on the side of the road dead with his intestines hanging out! We'll all cry with you until you get another cat to weep over. I'm sure as your cat lays dying he'll be thinking how "lucky" he is that you're so concerned about his freedom. Hugs, CatNipped > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have > two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them > in > or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational skills. You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside your borders is different. I have no objection to you managing your cats and keeping them safe in the way that you think is best for your environment. I can understand that in some of the environments described, it would be best to keep cats inside. What I *do* object to is people who, based on their experiences of their environments, then extrapolate to the fanatical, immovable belief that all cats in all environments should be kept indoors. That is plain ignorance. What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the world is not all as you see it from your window. >You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do >not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside your >borders is different. Is New Zealand a bubble? Honestly, there are areas in the US that are just as remote as where you live, and I wouldn't let my cat outside there either.  Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com >>You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do >>not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside >>your >>borders is different. > > Is New Zealand a bubble? Ecologically? Yes. Read the links I posted. > Honestly, there are areas in the US that are just as remote as where > you live, and I wouldn't let my cat outside there either. And they have US ecology. Suddenly, without warning, Ashley exclaimed (4/5/2005 2:57 AM): >>>You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do >>>not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > And they have US ecology. Well, the ecology differs depending on where in the US you are. Certainly, some areas have predators that are a danger to cats, but some do not. FWIW, here's my 2 cents worth. I am an American. My first cat, Mouse, was indoors when I lived in town in Wyoming. When we moved to a house way out in the country, on a dirt road, she was indoor/outdoor. There were no large predators to threaten her, so it was safe enough. When we moved back East, she became an indoor cat again. Now I have Meep. For all 8 years, and through 3 different countries (US, England and Australia) she has been an indoor cat. In England, the country of her birth, it is because I again live in a town, with loads of roads around. I've seen dead cats (and tons of dead wildlife) on the roads in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors' cats are outdoor, as that's the British culture. My other consideration with Meep is that she's not exactly the bravest cat on the block, and would probably be beat up by any passing moggie. She does go outside in the fenced back yard, when we are home. In Australia, she also was 'outside only under supervision', but for different reasons. Being a British cat, I wasn't sure she had the survival skills for our hot desert environment. We had extremely deadly snakes around (though I know cats are rarely bitten by snakes). We also had a bearded dragon that was bigger than Meep, and which I've heard fighting with a neighbor's feisty cat - no idea who started the fights (I suspect it was the cat), or who won. So, that was environment and potentially dangerous predators. All this blathering just means, I don't think it's a black-and-white issue. It's a matter of environment. If we are blessed with a healthy Meep when we move back to Wyoming, on our 50+ acres, she can go outside whenever she wants in the summer, but will (probably by choice) be an indoor cat during the bitter winters. I do find it interesting that here in England, cats are outdoor animals, and dogs are indoor animals. In the US, cats are indoor animals and dogs are outdoor animals. A gross generalization, of course, but just one of many small differences in our cultures. jmc jmc <NOnewsgroupsSPAM@NOjodiBODY.HOMEus> wrote in news:3bg976F6jie24U1 @individual.net: > All this blathering just means, I don't think it's a black-and-white > issue. I agree. SignatureCatherine & Rosalie the calico > jmc <NOnewsgroupsSPAM@NOjodiBODY.HOMEus> wrote in news:3bg976F6jie24U1 > @individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I agree. The fact remains that you live in a busy US urban area and you allow your cats to roam. Amazing. Talk about "tough love." > Now I have Meep. For all 8 years, and through 3 different countries > (US, England and Australia) she has been an indoor cat. In England, the > country of her birth, it is because I again live in a town, with loads > of roads around. I've seen dead cats (and tons of dead wildlife) on the > roads in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors' cats are outdoor, as > that's the British culture. This comment supports what I have noticed--that a lot of the insistance of the British who participate here that cats be allowed to roam has nothing to do with considerations of safety, and is not rational but deeply ingrained cultural practive left over from a much safer time. (Meaning a time when there were no cars.) [...] > I do find it interesting that here in England, cats are outdoor animals, > and dogs are indoor animals. In the US, cats are indoor animals and > dogs are outdoor animals. A gross generalization, of course, but just > one of many small differences in our cultures. Hmm, that is interesting. I have English-born aunts that keep their dogs in, but I have never asked what they think of those who keep dogs outside. Thanks for bringing the cultural element into the discussion. I think it is stronger than many imagine--and I think it is dangerous because it is based upon the way things used to be much more than the way things are. Suddenly, without warning, Mary exclaimed (4/6/2005 1:58 AM): > "jmc" <NOnewsgroupsSPAM@NOjodiBODY.HOMEus> wrote> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the way things used to be much more than the way things > are. I don't think it's something that one would notice unless you live in both countries. It's not always apparent where an individual poster is from in here. It took me a while to notice when we got here - mostly I noticed 'cause the neighborhood's a lot quieter, since there's rarely dogs outside barking at passersby. And I don't have to worry about being threatened by someone's loose dog. If there's a loose dog in the neighborhood, the owner's *always* not far away. Wish I could say that about the US (having been attacked by loose dogs twice)! That said, I do have to worry about hurting the neighbor's cats. They're completely uncaring about vehicles, and I'm worried I'll run one over without even seeing it, despite being *very* careful whenever I arrive or leave. We live in a culdesac, tight corners and bushes, and own a truck. jmc > > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have > > two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the world > is not all as you see it from your window. Now you're backtracking? You said in other posts that there *are* risks in NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of you). Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that and I'll know you're lying. *YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I* let something happen to my cats because *I* was too lazy to interact with them, play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their litterboxes twice a cay! Hugs, CatNipped > Now you're backtracking? Nope. You said in other posts that there *are* risks in > NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of > you). Because those risks are minimal. > Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat > torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell > me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that > and I'll know you're lying. Why would I tell you that? That would make a lie of everything I've posted. What I *will* tell you is that the dangers to cats in New Zealand are smaller by several degrees of magnitude than the risks you and other posters have described here: there are no wildlife dangers to cats in New Zealand; anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; the risk of being hit by a car can be drastically cut by keeping your cat inside at night. This is all true and can be verified by any independent source you wish to consult. > *YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my > cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their > litterboxes twice a cay! And you prove exactly my point. You are extraordinarily risk averse. You impose that risk aversion on your cats. I choose not to live in fear. > And you prove exactly my point. You are extraordinarily risk averse. You > impose that risk aversion on your cats. I choose not to live in fear. Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain ignorant, you win the right to put your cats at risk. I'll only beat my head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to be bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go apologize profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable. Hugs, CatNipped > Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain > ignorant, Everyone has that right. I choose not to be. Have you bothered reading any of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other threads? If not, I can only assume that ignorance is your choice. you win the right to put your cats at risk. No. I choose proportionate reactions to risk, not disproportionate risk-aversion. Were my cats at risk from roaming coyotes, poisonous snakes and widespread antifreeze use, I would react appropriately to those risks. As those risks are not present, I don't react to them. And I don't over-react to the risks that are present. I choose ways to minimise the danger of being involved in a car accident, but not totally remove it because I believe that eliminates too much experience and enjoyment from their lives. Life is a trade-off of risk and pleasure. If you try to eliminate all the risk (which you never can do) you eliminate most of the pleasure as well. We all draw our line in the sand somewhere. You draw yours too far down the pleasure-elimination track for my choosing. I'll only beat my > head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to > be > bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go > apologize > profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable. And again, stop twisting my words. I am sure your cats are not miserable - if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would not choose that life for my cats. > I am sure your cats are not miserable - > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But > again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would > not choose that life for my cats. Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips. That says it all. > > I am sure your cats are not miserable - > > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips. > That says it all.>>. How old are your and Catnips cats now ? Alison >> > I am sure your cats are not miserable - >> > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How old are your and Catnips cats now ? She's making wild assumptions again. One of the reasons I killfiled her - Mary doesn't do rational debate. > She's making wild assumptions again. One of the reasons I killfiled her - > Mary doesn't do rational debate. >> I know, believe me I know <G> Alison > > > I am sure your cats are not miserable - > > > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How old are your and Catnips cats now ? > Alison I meant with regard to their lifespans, you hairsplitting weasel. :) Our cats will live to be older. > > > I am sure your cats are not miserable - > > > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How old are your and Catnips cats now ? > Alison Bandit is 15, Demi is 6, Jessie is 5 and Sammy is 1. Bandit, having never been sick or injured (except for recently by her vet!!!) is as spry and playful as Sammy. Hugs, CatNipped > Have you bothered reading any > of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other threads? > .>>. On this group? I doubt it:) The indoor/outdoor arguments been done to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on that subject. Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance view about it. Alison > > Have you bothered reading any > > of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > view about it. > Alison I'd agree. I post & read on both groups, as do many others here. I've yet to see an indoor / outdoor debate on RPCA. On the other hand, I love a good argument.... Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas > > > Have you bothered reading any > > > of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to see an indoor / outdoor debate on RPCA. On the other hand, I love a good > argument.... That's only because after the third post in the thread you'd start getting recipes! ;> Hugs, CatNipped > > -- > Mathew > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat > En Vino Veritas "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message I love a good > argument.... It looks it! You tuck tail and run as soon as someone bruises your fragile ego. > "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It looks it! You tuck tail and run as soon as someone bruises your fragile > ego. He does. Steve G. on the other hand turns to the "best defense is a good offense" and changes the focus to his opponents shortcomings, real or fictitious. Anything but address the point, because he cannot refute it. >> Have you bothered reading any >> of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on > that subject. Yeah, I know. I had vowed never to get involved in it again. Call it a moment of weakness ... ;-) Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance > view about it. > Alison >anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on >their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in the neighborhood. Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free. Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days. Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com >>anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on >>their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; > > Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by > dogs, No, but they minimise things. To stop that entirely, you'd have to ban dogs! And, as you've been following my posts, you'll be aware that I most definitely do not claim there is *no* danger from dogs. I am, however, saying there is not *widespread* danger from dogs. Risk/reward tradeoff. or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a > different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in > the neighborhood. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands > there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is. Some people are just dumb ;-) > Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she > had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands > there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is. Kind of like smokers who get a citation while they're standing next to the "No smoking -- $XXX fine" sign." (Yes, I've known it to happen.) Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ friesian@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t7uk$o97$0 $216.145.17.200@ccom.net: > Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by > dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a > different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in > the neighborhood. Better keep those kids and chickens inside... it sounds like bad things happen outside. It might be best if we all stayed inside all the time too. SignatureCatherine & Rosalie the calico > friesian@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t7uk$o97$0 > $216.145.17.200@ccom.net: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Better keep those kids and chickens inside... it sounds like bad things > happen outside. It might be best if we all stayed inside all the time too. Cats and cars do not mix unless you like your cats dead. And there are cars everywhere. You are wrong, and a danger to your cats. The outdoors is great for them if you are with them, and they are harnessed, or if they are in a safe enclosed space. Otherwise, you are endangering them. They will not know this until they are bleeding. However, you have the forebrain and the gd thumbs. You should know better. > > Now you're backtracking? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Because those risks are minimal. Because your concern for cats' welfare is minimal, not to mention your mind! > > > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I > have [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their > litterboxes twice a cay! I get it. And I'm with you all the way, sister! ;) > > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have > > two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside your > borders is different. There are cars in your urban neighborhood, therefore your cats are in danger. I don't live in the states either but we still have cars and other animals, a.sholes that would torture and kill a cat as well as other hazards. Where is this town Glass Bubble you live in? Signature.oO rach Oo. >> Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I >> have [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the > world is not all as you see it from your window. > I don't live in the states either but we still have cars and other animals, > a.sholes that would torture and kill a cat as well as other hazards. Where > is this town Glass Bubble you live in? In her mind - it boarders Never Neverland in the North and LaLa Land in the South. P. > >> Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I > >> have [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the > > world is not all as you see it from your window. > > I don't live in the states either but we still have cars and other > animals, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > P. Her neighbors are Allison, Mathew Kagis, Ceb, and Steve G. They all live in the State of Denial. > > > I don't live in the states either but we still have cars and other > > animals, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Her neighbors are Allison, Mathew Kagis, Ceb, and Steve G. They all live in > the State of Denial. ROTFLMAOWTIME!!!!! <NOT getting back into this, but that was too funny!!> Hugs, CatNipped Here, counter these facts: Indoor cats... have a life span of 12 - 20 years are not exposed to disease will not get abscesses from fighting neighborhood strays will not be threatened by dogs or wildlife will not suffer injury or amputation from leghold traps will not suffer from frost bite will not be hit by cars will not get lost will never go hungry cannot be abused by strangers are safe from chemicals and fertilizers cannot be stolen are happy living indoors Outdoor cats... have a life span of only 1 - 5 years will be exposed to leukemia, kitty AIDS, parasites, etc. will fight - causing expensive vet bills are maimed or killed by dogs and predators can get caught in leghold traps do suffer from frost bite are hit by cars and injured or killed do stray from home and get lost can die from starvation are abused by strangers are exposed to toxic lawn antifreeze are stolen breed, if not neutered or spayed, and add to pet overpopulation Disagree? Which of those things above are wrong? OK, I already know, where you live you have none of those dangers right? I think Mary has the right of it - fingers in your ears chanting lalalalalalalalala! Hugs, CatNipped > Here, counter these facts: > > Indoor cats... > > have a life span of 12 - 20 years As do outdoor cared-for pets in safe environments > are not exposed to disease but are exposed to an increased risk of diabetes and obesity, not to mention anxiety disorders > will not get abscesses from fighting neighborhood strays yup, agree > will not be threatened by dogs or wildlife yup agree > will not suffer injury or amputation from leghold traps yup agree, but then neither will urban cats in New Zealand. > will not suffer from frost bite yup agree > will not be hit by cars yup agree > will not get lost unless they accidentally get out - then it's more likely > will never go hungry if they have an owner who ensures that > cannot be abused by strangers it is less likely, but there is no guarantee that people inside the home will not abuse them > are safe from chemicals and fertilizers you don't keep disinfectant and deterents in your house? > cannot be stolen it is less likely, but not impossible > are happy living indoors some are, some aren't They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and have their claws lopped off. > Outdoor cats... > > have a life span of only 1 - 5 years Nope. Compare like with like - pets with pets. No ferals. And even then, unless you can produce worldwide figures, your figures relate only to the States. If that is their lifespan, how come my two are both 10, and the vet who saw one of them a couple of weeks ago spoke of him having "at least another 6-10 years"? How come I was having a conversation yesterday with a colleague about her 18yo cat? You've been brainwashed. > will be exposed to leukemia, kitty AIDS, parasites, etc. yup. Parsites are easily treatable, most other diseases can be vaccinated against. > will fight - causing expensive vet bills Antibiotics ain't expensive > are maimed or killed by dogs and predators can get caught in leghold traps depends on where you are. I know of one cat that has been killed or maimed by a dog. And that was before laws changed to make it illegal to let dogs roam. Any roaming dog now runs a very high risk of spending the rest of its life at the pound. We don't have leghold traps in the suburbs, only in the wilderness areas where, whether anyone likes it or not, cats *will* be killed for the sake of the environment anyway. > do suffer from frost bite not here they don't. And not anywhere where they've got free access to a cat door. Or a warm barn. > are hit by cars and injured or killed yup. A risk that can be minimised by choosing your house carefully, neutering your pets and keeping them indoors at night. > do stray from home and get lost see above > can die from starvation if they're ferals, yup. If they're pets, no. > are abused by strangers very occasionally > are exposed to toxic lawn antifreeze not here, they're not > are stolen very rarely - more of a risk with expensive pedigrees than with moggies > breed, if not neutered or spayed, and add to pet overpopulation but as pets *are* neutered and spayed, this isn't part of the issue, is it? That's actually a straw man > Disagree? Which of those things above are wrong? OK, I already know, > where > you live you have none of those dangers right? I think Mary has the right > of it - fingers in your ears chanting lalalalalalalalala! I appear to be the one with my eye open, here. > They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and have > their claws lopped off. OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll. Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group?? Hugs, CatNipped >> They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and > have >> their claws lopped off. > > OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll. Because? Are you debating that treatment of cats with mood-altering drugs, and declawing, is more common with indoor cats? The reality is: it is. Did you read the link I provided? > Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group?? I read many of your posts. I am not saying *you* do this to *your* cats. I am saying it is more common among indoor cats. Which it is. > > They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and > have > > their claws lopped off. > > OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll. > Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group?? If you've noticed, since she's been posting to this group (not just this thread), she's never really contributed much useful information, she basically just takes swipes at others' posts and criticizes people. Phil > but are exposed to an increased risk of diabetes and obesity, not to mention > anxiety disorders Does your ignorance know no bounds? These are problems caused the *owner* for not providing proper nutrition and environmental enrichment - *not* a result of indoor living! Indoor cats simply require more effort, creativity, imagination, and involvement - neither of which you seem to possess or are cable of understanding. In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an indoor cat due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical and psychological disorders. Or do you also live in a sterile, silent vacuum all alone? You don't know enough about cats to even know how much you don't know! IOW, you're an babbling idiot! >> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an indoor cat > due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, > environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical and > psychological disorders. >>> Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape from it. Alison > >> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an > indoor cat [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > from it. > Alison Only if they have lazy, stupid indifferent owners who have no imagination or creativity. Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little or no control. P <SNIP> > Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little or > no control. > > P So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are stupid? My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic 'memory' which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than most (if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as you think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions, cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago. Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in > > Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are stupid? I know many cats are not intelligent enough to avoid being bit, upon encountering another animal, and so avoid a painful abscess, potentially weeks of fever, a trip to the vet, and having to take anti-biotics. Does the advantage of freedom outweigh this major and life-threatening inconvenience? I learned the hard way. It does not, in my estimation. > My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic 'memory' > which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than most > (if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as you > think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions, > cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago. Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your cats out, I do recommend at least reading up on the treatment of abscesses, though. And owners of outdoor cats should try to imagine whether they could handle a ghastly death at the hands of predators such as big dogs, coyotes (in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by witnessing this. > > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to > > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by > witnessing this. Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong (like many assuptions made by people in this debate). I know all about the treatment of abcesses & I spend a little time at the grave of my (RB) kitten La-Feet every day. He's buried beside my front flower bed. And, yes... After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if they want to. I held La-Feet in my arms as the vet gave him the 'final' injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone. I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what I've been through in my life... You will be wrong. Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote Elle wrote > > Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors > > cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone. > I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I did say "Maybe... " above. If you're not breaking the law in your area by letting your cats roam outside, then I guess you've won this "debate," insofar as you are in fact free to choose, and do so choose, to knowingly put your cats' health at higher risk, and no one can stop this. Folks roll the dice all the time. You. Me. Everyone. That's life. I hope you don't mind people posting their bad experiences with letting cats outdoors, though, so lurkers can see all sides. Good luck. <SNIP> > Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I did > say "Maybe... " above. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Good luck. You are excused, & forgive my tone, this debate has been getting a little heated (as a good debate should). Too bad it's degenerated into name calling in some cases. I have no problem with any perspective. However, like religous extremists, political extremists & ANY other extremist. NOTHING will get a rise out of me faster than someone saying 'I am the ONLY way.' By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my cats has been altered by that experience. Cheers Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message > By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current > hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my > cats has been altered by that experience. How comforting. Perhaps after a few more cats have fatal injuries you'll alter your behavior a little more. How many more cats will need to die before you alter your behavior enough to keep them in a safe environment? > "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > > Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I did [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > You are excused, I didn't ask to be excused and have no idea why you think I perhaps should seek to be excused. > & forgive my tone, this debate has been getting a little > heated (as a good debate should). I agree to disagree that good debates require a little heat. > Too bad it's degenerated into name > calling in some cases. I have no problem with any perspective. However, > like religous extremists, political extremists & ANY other extremist. > NOTHING will get a rise out of me faster than someone saying 'I am the ONLY > way.' IMO, your statements aren't much different, Matt. One tries to weigh the amount of reason on both sides, and yours seems to be simply a sense that the cats are happier as outdoor roamers. One is entitled to having such a sense, but I for one believe the statistics that indicate indoor cats live longer and quite happily. I believe United States animal protection agencies overwhelmingly take this view. > By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current > hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my > cats has been altered by that experience. Oh. I continue to recognize that while you may take more risks with your cats, no doubt others take other risks with their lives and loved ones that you would judge irrational. No big deal. We try to put out the facts and let people make up their own minds, within the law. I presume you are conforming with the law in your area anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt. <SNIP> > I continue to recognize that while you may take more risks with your cats, > no doubt others take other risks with their lives and loved ones that you > would judge irrational. No big deal. We try to put out the facts and let > people make up their own minds, within the law. I presume you are conforming > with the law in your area anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt. OK, first excuse me for excusing you. Yes I'm on the cats that get outdoor time are happier side of this debate... I just don't see how a few hundred years of modern domestication can overwhelm thousands of years of genetic programming.... It simply seems illogical to me. As to risk taking... I agree. From the moment you are born, you are at risk... Same for your pets. I could reduce the risks in my own life by ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the occasional pizza.... and on and on. I choose to balance quality of life with safety concerns. NOTE: I spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, so my 'safety' meter is very sensitive. Both my cats were adopted from a shelter, they had a very thourough screening process, including a home visit. The local SPCA saw no problem with my desire to let the cats outside, they did spend some time making sure I understood the risks (which I did). And time making sure I was willing and able to handle extra medical costs related to those risks (which I was). The rep from the SPCA deemed me a 'perfect' candidate for adoption... So, I'm comfortable with my choices & my kittens's lifestyle. And, yes, I am conforming to all local pet laws. cheers SignatureMathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas > <SNIP> > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > cheers Cheers to your poor cats. You are the one with the forebrain. If they could gauge their risks they might not want to go outside. "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message I could reduce the risks in my own life by > ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the > occasional pizza.... Wow! Those are sure serious risks! Weren't you afraid of breaking a nail while you were rock climbing? > "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wow! Those are sure serious risks! Weren't you afraid of breaking a nail > while you were rock climbing? ooooo hoooooo hooooo hooooo, low five Phil lowwwwww five! > > "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > > > Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > amount of reason on both sides, and yours seems to be simply a sense that > the cats are happier as outdoor roamers. That's it, and then there is the thing he will not admit, which is that it is just more convenient for him. > > > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to > > > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what > I've been through in my life... You will be wrong. You're right. But just knowing this little piece of your life I think much less of you. You are an irresponsible person who should never be allowed to have a cat. "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message And, yes... > After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one > morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if > they want to. Your cat suffered a horribly painful death a result of your stupidity and poor judgment and you're *still* willing to risk the *same* painful death for your *other* cats? Doesn't the fact that your cat was KILLED tell you that it just might not be as safe for free-roaming cats in your area as you thought it was? Or are you normally not that inquisitive? Here's what you should do bright and early tomorrow morning: Put your other cats in their carriers and take them to your vet and ask your vet to give them to one his clients with an IQ in double digits. When he asks you why you're giving up your cats, tell him because you're too f.cking STUPID to be entrusted with a cat's life. You're a clear and present danger to cats and should be on the DNA list of every shelter in you area - if not *country*. > Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong > (like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what > I've been through in my life... You will be wrong. Oh my! Now, see, there you just lost me Mathew. I can understand people, *especially* young people thinking, "Yeah, it happens, but it won't happen to me." The whole, "I'm immortal" feelings we all have when we are young - no matter how hard you try to make them see reality they just can't be persuaded until it happens to them. I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and *STILL* putting your cats at risk! Hugs, CatNipped > Mathew > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat > En Vino Veritas > I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and > *STILL* putting your cats at risk! It was the cat that suffered. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/ >> I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and >> *STILL* putting your cats at risk! > > It was the cat that suffered. True, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that Mathew was also hurt by the loss of his kitten. What I can't understand it how that hurt did *NOT* translate into his taking more care with the rest of his cats. Hugs, CatNipped > > I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and > > *STILL* putting your cats at risk! > > It was the cat that suffered. Yes indeed. That does explain it. All Kagis had to do was cry and decide that regardless, all his cats must be allowed to roam. > <SNIP> > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? No, its a responsibility and obligation issue for me. Apparently, you don't know the difference. Do you feel the need to > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are stupid? I feel I have the responsibility and obligation to provide a safe enviorment for my cats. I don't think cats are stupid - quite the opposite. I think many cats are smarter than their owners. I also think many outdoor cats have lazy and/or stupid and/or indifferent owners who have little or no desrire, imagination, or creativity and cannot or will not provide enough environment enrichment for their cats to keep them happy, interested, stimulated and safely indoors and/or with access to a protected outdoor enclosure. "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message <SNIP> > I feel I have the responsibility and obligation to provide a safe enviorment > for my cats. I don't think cats are stupid - quite the opposite. I think > many cats are smarter than their owners. Then we agree on that point. > I also think many outdoor cats have lazy and/or stupid and/or indifferent > owners who have little or no desrire, imagination, or creativity and cannot > or will not provide enough environment enrichment for their cats to keep > them happy, interested, stimulated and safely indoors and/or with access to > a protected outdoor enclosure. I won't reapeat myself, as I have addressed these issues in previous posts... YES I play with my cats, YES we have interactive toys, YES I spent $150 on a cat tower for their enjoyment. YES they are the first thought in my head when I wake up & the last thought when I go to bed... They get fed & watered before me, they get medical attention before me, they get the best quality food available & I'm currently reasearching switctching them to a hommade diet as all the evidence I have found points to better feline health with a raw food diet. You have the right to voice your opinion Phil, we both live in quasi-democracies (I assume you are in the USA, I'm in Canada), so we get to have opinions. BUT, understand the choice to let cats roam outside, isn't necissarily one of indifference & sloth. For some of us, it comes from the same place of love that makes you keep yours inside. Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas BUT, understand the choice to let cats roam outside, isn't > necissarily one of indifference & sloth. For some of us, it comes from the > same place of love that makes you keep yours inside. ...perhaps the same place, just not the same depth. Love is also relative. On a 'love scale' of 1-10, a '10' to you might be a 3 or 4 to me. That's doesn't mean I love my cats more than you love your cats. Its means exactly what Ashley said - some people are more "emotionally attached" to their cats than others. "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message <SNIP> > ...perhaps the same place, just not the same depth. > > Love is also relative. On a 'love scale' of 1-10, a '10' to you might be a > 3 or 4 to me. That's doesn't mean I love my cats more than you love your > cats. Its means exactly what Ashley said - some people are more > "emotionally attached" to their cats than others. Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment. There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens), in my mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment. Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message > Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment. > There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional > attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens), in my > mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment. Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your 'maximum emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing to gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much as your capable of loving them. > Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your 'maximum > emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing to > gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love > your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much as > your capable of loving them. lol... ouch... ;-) Usenet! > > Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your > 'maximum [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Usenet! He's right, though. It is the only way to explain why someone would claim to love his cats so deeply (as Kagis has) and still allow them out unattended even though he has already had a KITTEN suffer a broken back because of it. He has to be 1/4 inch deep. > "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote in message > > Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much as > your capable of loving them. Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously close. Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously > close. Oh no! Not the killfile! Anything but the killfile! LOL! About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them killed. You're done... Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy Feast... Of course something produced by a large for profit only corporation COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them in harms way. I truly pity people like you, a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated one. BYE SignatureMathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas > > > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them > killed. > You're done... Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy > Feast... Let's have the breakdown of your cat food, Mathew. >Of course something produced by a large for profit only corporation > COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them in > harms way. Now this is interesting. Processed food is inferior to vermin, eh Mathew? The lengths you will go to to justify your irresponsibility. > I truly pity people like you, a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated > one. > > BYE Pfft. Phil has forgotten more than you will ever know about how to care for cats, and helps countless ones while you are playing roulette with the lives of the two you are too f.cking lame to take care of. > You're done... Oh no! Now I've really gone and did it! Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy > Feast... Of course something produced by a large for profit only corporation > COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them in > harms way. Oh no! You're an au naturel cult fanatic, too! Next you'll be telling me you don't believe in neutering because you want your cats to have a sex life, too! ROTFL! > I truly pity people like you, If I wanted your pity - I'd buy it. I pity your cats - they're the ones who *really* need pity. a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated > one. Shucks! Maybe if I finished college I could have been a bar room manager like you! ROTFLMAO! Your education didn't give you the sense to learn from your mistakes. One cat has already died a painful death as a result of your utter stupidity and yet you place your other cats in *same* danger **AGAIN**. Do you know what people who make the same mistakes over and over are called? f.cking IDIOTS and LOSERS. > BYE Come again when you can't stay so long. > > > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously > > > close. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them > > killed. > > You're done... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > you don't believe in neutering because you want your cats to have a sex > life, too! ROTFL! I told you! This is the "be free wild thing" stuff I talked about. It harkens back to the Victorian glorification/demonization of "Nature" and ties in with the eroticizing of death in 19th-century British philosophy, literature, and culture in that order. The wheat-germ crunchers are just an offshoot. :) I don't just pull this stuff out of my a.s, you know. 8) > > > You're done... > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > wheat-germ crunchers are just an offshoot. :) I don't just > pull this stuff out of my a.s, you know. 8) Yep. Keeping cats outdoors in Britain is more of a tradition than anything else. The problem with traditions is that they often don't change with the times. Back in the '50s and even up to the early 70s in the US, more people let their cats out than kept them in or in enclosures. But with increased urbanization and the tremendous increase in cars, trucks, and buses, now more owned cats are kept indoors than allowed to roam. Phil > > > > You're done... > > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > urbanization and the tremendous increase in cars, trucks, and buses, now > more owned cats are kept indoors than allowed to roam. Absolutely. I grew up in the 70s and saw the carnage for pets resulting from the change. I know that has shaped my stance on the matter. Anyone who can successfully argue that more hurt or killed cats is a good thing might change my mind. > I told you! This is the "be free wild thing" stuff I talked about. > It harkens back to the Victorian glorification/demonization of > "Nature" and ties in with the eroticizing of death in 19th-century > British philosophy, literature, and culture in that order. The > wheat-germ crunchers are just an offshoot. :) I don't just > pull this stuff out of my a.s, you know. 8) It is possible to be a wheat-germ cruncher AND keep your cats inside. I honestly don't know how people can let their cats out and not be crazy with worry. Maybe I'm neurotic. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > It is possible to be a wheat-germ cruncher AND keep your cats inside. I > honestly don't know how people can let their cats out and not be crazy with > worry. Maybe I'm neurotic. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > kelly at farringtons dot net > "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG Many don't live in an area where worry is warranted. If a kitten is raised as an indoor-outdoor cat from the time they are little, they learn very quickly what to be wary of, especially if they are groomed by an elder cat. Peewee would love to be indoor-outdoor. Since he wasn't raised as an indoor-outdoor cat, he's not outdoor-savvy. Had we lived here from the time he was adopted, he probably would be indoor-outdoor. I just can't take a one-size-fits-all stance on this issue. Some cats do fine as indoor-outdoor cats. All of my Mom's cats were indoor-outdoor their entire (long) lives. Almost everyone I know who livs in a suitable environ has indoor-outdoor cats. What I don't understand is people who live in cram-packed suburban or urban neighborhoods and still let their cats outside. To me, THAT is insane. -L. > I just can't take a one-size-fits-all stance on this issue. Some cats > do fine as indoor-outdoor cats. All of my Mom's cats were > indoor-outdoor their entire (long) lives. Almost everyone I know who > livs in a suitable environ has indoor-outdoor cats. I can't either. That's why I don't jump all over people who live in different countries because I've never been there and I don't feel qualified to speak as to whether or not it is safe for their cat to go outside. No matter what country though, IMO, an urban environment is not safe for an outdoor cat. > What I don't understand is people who live in cram-packed suburban or > urban neighborhoods and still let their cats outside. To me, THAT is > insane. Or conversely, a rural area with predators lurking. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > I just can't take a one-size-fits-all stance on this issue. Some cats > > do fine as indoor-outdoor cats. All of my Mom's cats were [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Or conversely, a rural area with predators lurking. Assley and Alison live in urban areas. And Mathew Kagis lives in British Columbia, where people out walking regularly get attacked by wild cats. But stay on the safe side. That way people won't dislike you for telling the truth. > Assley and Alison live in urban areas. And Mathew Kagis > lives in British Columbia, where people out walking > regularly get attacked by wild cats. But stay on the safe > side. That way people won't dislike you for telling the > truth. I said urban areas anywhere are not safe for cats to be outdoors, as well as rural areas with known predators. It makes me cringe when people post on RPCA about their cats getting in fights, or they haven't seen their indoor/outdoor cat in days, or the cat came home injured, etc. That to me says there is a known danger in that area and the cat should be inside. But, like I said before, I can't take the stand that *all* cats *everywhere* should be indoor-only. There are safe, low-traffic, predator-free areas, I just haven't lived in one. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > Assley and Alison live in urban areas. And Mathew Kagis > > lives in British Columbia, where people out walking [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > should be indoor-only. There are safe, low-traffic, predator-free areas, I > just haven't lived in one. Oh did you? I guess I wasn't following the discussion that closely. I just remember something about your not taking a stand. :) "KellyH" <Kelly@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message > I said urban areas anywhere are not safe for cats to be outdoors, as well as > rural areas with known predators. It makes me cringe when people post on [quoted t |
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