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Urination - Help! for Depressed Owner

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Richard - 23 Mar 2005 20:00 GMT
I am depressed and in need of advice about a urinating cat!

I adopted a male neutered Balinese/Siamese mix a year ago.  He is now
about 3 years old.  The reason he was given up was because "the
boyfriend didn't like cats."

When I brought him home, I placed him on my bed and he began to urinate
on the bed.  I stopped him at that time.  I brought him to the vet and
he had crystals. I was told to put him on Science Diet for crystals
(cannot remember the formula name). Eventually, he went off it and a
few months past when he didn't pee.  Of course now I believe that was
the case since I kept foil on all the furniture and especially where he
liked to pee the most.  Soon he began peeing on couches, rugs and beds.
Some time would pass and he would not do it and then he started up
again.

The vet suggested it was behavioral and suggested some medication to
"calm him."  When first giving him the medicine, he started to pee alot
again.  All peeing is done horizontally, not vertically.

Going back to the vet, crystals were found again.  The vet suggested
that I should isolate him for 2-3 weeks and feed him only the Science
Diet food.  In the future, she said I would have to isolate him every
month for a week with the special diet.

I now have him in a bedroom with a bed covered with plastic to
accomplish two goals: 1) to have him learn to use the litter box and 2)
to have him eat the Science Diet food.  He eats the food fine and I let
him out to visit every day for an hour or so.  In the past few days, he
has gone back to where he peed and peed again as well as peeing on a
towel on the floor.

During his time in the room, he pees a little in different spots on the
plastic as well as using the litter box for both pee and poop.  He has
used the litter box throughout the year with me for poop and pee also.

I have four other cats who are all healthy, neutered/spayed and have
never had a peeing issue (3 males: 8, 4 and 3 years old and one female
15 years old).  He seems to play/chase with one or two of them, but no
real fights.  I used to feed all the cats Science Diet but have
switched about 3 months ago to Wellness.

Since I think texture is important to cats, he seems to associate a
soft feel (mattress, towel, couch) with a place to pee.  Of course, I
cannot eliminate all soft surfaces from my home.

There have been no changes to the household and he was the last cat in
the house.  I kept him in a room for a week before introducing him to
the other cats when he first arrived.

At this point, I am very depressed since I don't know what to do.  I
cannot continue living with him peeing in previously marked and new
places.  I also don't feel it is right to keep him in the room the rest
of his life.  I could return him to the rescue organization but do not
see how he would be any different in another home. I'm afraid he
learned the peeing early on and don't know what to do.

In thinking about responses to this post, you might say:
1) Crystals take longer to clear up!
That is true, but it has been 2 weeks on the special diet and remember
that he peed outside the box in the past when I believe he did not have
crystals.

2) Just give him back to the rescue organization!
But I love him and more importantly I don't think he would be any
different in another home and would be unadoptable.  He is a very
affectionate cat with a great personality.

3) Keep him in a room for the rest of his life.
I don't feel that is a good thing for him especially since he continues
to pee on the plastic in the room.

Suggestions welcome!
Richard - 23 Mar 2005 20:13 GMT
Just as a follow-up.  I love cats and know they have brought me much
joy during my life.  I don't want to come across as insensitive and
uncaring.  I just feel like I am at the end of my rope and I feel badly
about the situation.

Also, I had a phone consult with Sonya Fitzpatrick (the Pet Psyhic from
Animal Planet) about this cat.  I asked her to ask him to stop peeing.
She said she did and that he told her there were not medical issues at
the time (this was in 1/05).  She told me to put some of my urine in
the litter boxes, which I did as well.  But of course, the peeing
continued.

Thanks for your comments.
Karen - 23 Mar 2005 21:23 GMT
Oh good Lord. You would have better spent your money on a feline vet
specialist.

> Just as a follow-up.  I love cats and know they have brought me much
> joy during my life.  I don't want to come across as insensitive and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thanks for your comments.
Richard - 23 Mar 2005 21:23 GMT
How might I find a feline vet specialist in my local area (Northern VA)?
Karen - 23 Mar 2005 21:34 GMT
Here you go:

http://www.aafponline.org/find.php

However, if you follow Megan's advice scrupulously, I imagine you will see a
huge improvement. STill, your vet sounds like he/she does NOT know much
about cat problems so searching for a new vet would be great.

> How might I find a feline vet specialist in my local area (Northern VA)?
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 20:25 GMT
First, I really think you need to change vets. this idea of isolating
your cat one week a month is ridiculous, and pushing prescription food
on you without further investigation of the issue is also troublesome.

It sounds to me like your cat may have a condition called Interstitial
Cystitis. This is a chronic inflammation of the bladder that happens
because there are flaws in the protective lining of the bladder and the
urine irrtates the bladder wall casing inflammation, blood and symptoms
of a urinary tract infection.  I have two cats with this condition and
have been able to control it, and I suggest you try my approach for a
few months and see if you see improvement.

1) The first thing you'll need to do is eliminate dry food.

Dry food diets have been shown to exacerbate or cause urinary tract
issues. Cats have evolved to derive most of their moisture intake from
what they eat. As a result the cat does not get enough water from dry
food and usually doesn't drink enough to make up for the losses, thereby
not allowing the bladder to be properly flushed and keeping the cat in a
constant state of dehydration, which puts a lot of stress on other
organs as well. The fact is dry food is not a species appropriate diet
and is now suspected to cause diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease,
kidney problems, etc., and it was shown in one study that it often
exacerbates urinary tract issues.

Some good websites that address a lot of the problems with dry food are:
http://catsincanada.com/articles/feeding.html
http://www.catnutrition.org

When choosing a canned food, it is also important to only feed *high
quality* foods, which generally use a fixed formula and are more
digestable as they contain quality ingredients (no by-products), where
grocery store foods generally are made with whatever is cheapest. The
food I would recommend, and use myself is Wellness, (which also promotes
a neutral urine ph of 6.1-6,4, which is very similar to Hill's c/d and
may help to keep crystals from developing.) To find a supplier of
Wellness near you you can go to
http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/locator/locator_form.asp

2) The next thing you'll need to do is put your cat on a 12 hour feeding
schedule. Free feeding is not a good idea, and can't be done with canned
food anyway. I also recommend that you give your cat a variety of
flavors (something different each day), so you don't risk the cat
getting fixated on one particular food to the exclusion of all others,
and also to alleviate boredom with a food where the cat gets sick of it
and stops eating it altogether.

3) Supplement your cat with Glucosamine. While it is generally used for
joints and arthritis, it also works to rebuild the protective layer of
the bladder, which in turns stops the pain and irritation that causes
the cat to exhibit symptoms of a UTI. For this purpose your best bet is
to buy Cosequin for Cats, which can be given by capsule or mixed in with
the canned food. It is available through your vet, or can be purchased
online without a prescription. The dose is 1 capsule for every 10
pounds. If your cat is larger, say 12-13 pounds. I would suggest you use
a capsule and a half rather than try to get away with using one capsule
as it would be better to do a little extra than not enough. If your cat
is smaller than 10 pounds, just use one whole capsule.

4) Try to determine, then eliminate, what any stressors might be in
household. Stress can exacerbate or cause flare-ups in cats with IC. You
can also buy Feliway plugins and use those as they have a calming effect
on cats and can help reduce stress. http://www.valleyvet.com is a good
source for buying these at a reasonable price. The refills last longer
than the packaging says, and the ones I have last close to two months,
so the long term expense is minimal.

5) Keep the litterbox immaculately clean. Generally, as a rule, using a
clumping litter (natural litters such as World's Best Cat Litter or an
*unscented* clay litter such as Everclean are good) and scooping a
minimum of twice a day will keep the litterbox clean and to the cat's
liking. It is also important to regularly disinfect the box (every 2-3
weeks) and completely change the litter *at least* once a month. Having
a dirty litterbox can be really stressful for cats, and the routine I
have described to keep the litterbox clean takes no more than a few
minutes a day for scooping and maybe 10 minutes every few weeks for the
disinfecting and litter change.

If, after a few months (it probably won't take that long to notice a
difference,) you aren't seeing improvement, then it would be wise to
investigate other possibilities such as bladder stones. HTH.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Richard - 23 Mar 2005 20:54 GMT
Thanks for the advice.  If I feed only Wellness wet food, how long
would you guess would the urination outside the litter box stop?  Will
this treat the crystals also?
zuzu22@webtv.net - 24 Mar 2005 03:40 GMT
>If I feed only Wellness wet food, how
>long would you guess would the
>urination outside the litter box stop?

There's no way to know, but the Cosequin is more important for helping
stop the inflammation which causes the discomfort that is causing your
cat to find other places to pee. Cosequin can take a few weeks to build
up and reach full effect so don't expect anything right away. Be patient
and give it at least a month or two. With IC, Cosequin will need to be
given for life.
Keep in mind that if this is Interstitial Cystitis, you have to do *all*
the things I mentioned to best achieve success, you can't just pick one
part.

>Will this treat the crystals also?

Feeding canned food will keep your cat better hydrated and the bladder
better flushed, which helps to keep crystals from building up. The
Wellness canned food, as I stated before, also promotes a pretty neutral
ph and that should help to keep crystals from forming as well.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Richard - 24 Mar 2005 21:45 GMT
Thanks to all who responded and the detailed feedback. I love cat
people!

I am getting the Wellness can food, Feliway plugs and the Cosequin for
Cats.  The cat in question is a healthy weight (about 14 lbs.) and
everything else appears fine.

I have been feeding the dry Wellness for several months.  Will the wet
food treat the interstitial cystitis better than the dry or a mix of
the dry/wet food?  In other words, does it have to be wet food only?

One of my cats has a UTI and another cat has had persistent diaherrea.
The vets has each cat on medication for a week and their conditions are
improving.  Will the Wellness can diet food work for them to minimize
these illness in the future?
Mary - 24 Mar 2005 23:59 GMT
> Thanks to all who responded and the detailed feedback. I love cat
> people!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> improving.  Will the Wellness can diet food work for them to minimize
> these illness in the future?

I sure don't know the answer to this but you probably cannot do
better than this food, in general. You're a good cat Dad! Have we
seen photos of your cats? We love photos, posted at alt.
binaries.pictures. animals or maybe via a link to your
photo site?
Richard - 25 Mar 2005 00:35 GMT
I'd be happy to post pictures of my 5 cats.  How do I post in this
group without revealing my email address?

Thanks.
Mary - 25 Mar 2005 01:23 GMT
> I'd be happy to post pictures of my 5 cats.  How do I post in this
> group without revealing my email address?
>
> Thanks.

Richard--if you have a photo web site, you can post the link to it
here or you can post photos in the group alt.binaries.pictures.animals.
I don't really understand your question.
---MIKE--- - 25 Mar 2005 01:38 GMT
Richard, Wellness is just one of several quality canned foods.  The
important thing is to find one that your cats really like.  I have had
the best luck with Wellness chicken flavor.  You want to avoid the fish
flavors but chicken, turkey and beef or veal would be fine.  Another
good brand is Innova.  I just give small amounts of Wellness dry as a
treat at noon and bedtime.  I feed the canned when I am having breakfast
and dinner.  I divide one 5.5 oz can between two cats at each feeding.

                 ---MIKE---
zuzu22@webtv.net - 25 Mar 2005 00:53 GMT
>Will the wet food treat the interstitial
>cystitis better than the dry or a mix of the
>dry/wet food? In other words, does it have
>to be wet food only?

I won't feed dry for the specific reason that I have seen the cats have
fare-ups of IC when dry was given. Dry food means less moisture and cats
with urinary tract issues need to stay well-hydrated. You don't want to
leave food out all day either, which there's a tendency to do when
feeding dry. Stick with scheduled meals of wet food only. If I can do it
with 25 cats, you should be able to manage with just a few. :-)

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Richard - 25 Mar 2005 01:17 GMT
OK, gotcha.  Are there any other brands of food other than Wellness
that you would recommend?  Your cats are very lucky!

I really appreciate the advice.  I plan to stick to it and see if I get
the peeing under control.

Richard
zuzu22@webtv.net - 25 Mar 2005 01:56 GMT
<Are there any other brands of food other
>than Wellness that you would
>recommend?

If you didn't have cats with urinary health issues I might offer other
options. The problem is that there just aren't that many truly good
foods and, depending on what you feed, the urine ph a particular food
will promote can vary quite a bit and not be appropriate for your
situation. That's why I'm recommending the Wellness. Considering also
that one of your cats has persistent diarrhea, if it has IBD the
Wellness food has no grains ( a coomon cause of diarrhea) and is often
used to control IBD issues, so you may likely have more benefit to this
plan than you hoped for.
As far as how much to feed each cat, if they are good weights figure on
about 15 calories per pound per day split into two meals. A 5.5 can of
the basic flavors of Wellness (Turkey, Chicken, Turkey and Salmon,
Chicken and Herring, and Beef and Chicken ) average about 170-180
calories. I know several people that have cats that average about 9
pounds and they maintain their weight on 1/3 of a 5.5 oz can twice a day
which comes out to about 13 calories per pound. I have several cats that
maintain at the fewer than average calories per pound as well. The nice
thing about this way of feeding is, once you figure out portions, you
can perfectly maintain your cat's weight and you will know exactly to
the ounce how much food you need to buy per week or month and will be
able to budget accordingly. I do understand that it may seem more
expensive, but I can attest to the fact that feeding this way has cut my
vet bills by more than half and my cats are all in beautiful condition.

>Your cats are very lucky!

Thank you. :-)

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Richard - 25 Mar 2005 17:25 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion. I spoke with my vet, who agreed (!) with all
your suggestions.   She suggested testing the urine for crystals in
another week.  She also suggested adding Rescue Remedy to the water.
Regardless, I am completely sold on Wellness wet for all the cats all
the time and no more dry food.

I thought of isolating him for a month more or so so I can watch as he
pees less on the plastic and then release him.  What would you suggest
since he has peed outside the room when roaming this week?
-L. - 25 Mar 2005 10:33 GMT
> Thanks to all who responded and the detailed feedback. I love cat
> people!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> food treat the interstitial cystitis better than the dry or a mix of
> the dry/wet food?  In other words, does it have to be wet food only?

I didn't read the whole thread, so pardon me if somone has already
suggested this...

If your cat truly has interstital cystitis (and not bacterial-mediated
UTI or pH-related crystal formation), it is possible that it can be
helped with Elavil.

As for foods and UTIs - wet is best because it contains moisture and
water intake is crucial in preventing UTIs.

good luck,
-L.
Noon Cat Nick - 23 Mar 2005 21:55 GMT
> First, I really think you need to change vets. this idea of isolating
> your cat one week a month is ridiculous, <snip>

I disagree. It might be quite helpful. It certainly was with a cat I
used to own (although the isolation was just for a few hours daily,
lasted less than a week, and didn't need to be repeated). The idea
behind it is that the cat is expressing anger and frustration at having
no place he can call his own. Such isolation will cause hair and dander
to mark the area as belonging to the cat, and he'll feel he has his own
personal comfort zone, which will stop the marking.

Feliway Spray works along the same lines. It mimics the scent of a cat's
facial pheremones, a smell which signifies comfort and happiness. When
such a scent is present, the cat will mark it with his own facial and
posterior scent glands, which will stop urine marking. I've seen it work.

But I also fully agree that the cat should be checked for interstitial
cystitis, as well as the possibilities of diabetes or a kidney disorder.
Karen - 23 Mar 2005 21:23 GMT
Google feline interstitial cystitis. Buy Feliway diffusers for the rooms in
your house. Increase water intake by placing bowls of water around the house
and feeding at least 50% of the time wet food. I know others will chime in
too.

> I am depressed and in need of advice about a urinating cat!
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Suggestions welcome!
default - 23 Mar 2005 21:32 GMT
Has you vet done x-rays to see if it is kidney stones or bladder stones?
This might be the cause of urinating outside of the box, and might not show
up as crystals. He might not be able to make it to the box each time. If
this is the case, you might have to try Science Diet XD and giving the kitty
fluids.
Also - and this won't be a popular suggestion - does your cat go outside? We
had a cat that peed EVERYWHERE - even on top of the foil, newspapers, dirty
laundry. He was an indoor only cat. We were at the end of our rope. He had
NO medical problems, and we tried ALL solutions found here. We started
letting him out. supervised,  and he stopped peeing inside in inappropriate
places and started using the litter boxes. There was just something going on
in his little head that he had to go outside.

I appreciate how depressing this is. We were doing laundry everyday (towels,
pillows, blankets, rugs). Had to get a heavy duty washer!! But the damn
little buggers work their way into your heart, and you have to do anything
you can to help them out.

I would also ask the (new) vet about the cosequin that the other poster
suggested, or some amiltryptiline (sorry on the spelling). They can both
help calm the cat and help with the Interstitial Cystitis. You have to be
patient, though, because it does take awhile to build up the dosage in the
kitty.

Good luck.

> I am depressed and in need of advice about a urinating cat!
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Suggestions welcome!
Richard - 23 Mar 2005 21:52 GMT
All cats are inside cats.
Noon Cat Nick - 24 Mar 2005 00:40 GMT
> All cats are inside cats.

All cats are inside/outside cats.
Mary - 24 Mar 2005 01:07 GMT
> > All cats are inside cats.
>
> All cats are inside/outside cats.

Some cats are dead cats.

More cats that are outside cats
wind up dead cats faster.
Noon Cat Nick - 24 Mar 2005 05:04 GMT
> > > All cats are inside cats.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> More cats that are outside cats
> wind up dead cats faster.

That doesn't keep the outdoors from being their natural habitat.
Mary - 24 Mar 2005 05:11 GMT
> > > > All cats are inside cats.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That doesn't keep the outdoors from being their natural habitat.

They are domesticated animals that do fine indoors--in fact
better because they are safer. But I understand your point.
I had a friend who is an "animal lover" and she has said
outright that she would rather her cats have a shorter
lifespan and live outdoors "naturally." She practices
what she preaches, too. In the 20 years I had one indoor
perfectly happy cat she went through at least five. They
were mauled by dogs, hit by cars and poisoned.
Noon Cat Nick - 24 Mar 2005 07:01 GMT
> > > > > All cats are inside cats.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> perfectly happy cat she went through at least five. They
> were mauled by dogs, hit by cars and poisoned.

I train my cats to use a leash and halter. It cuts down greatly on the above.
Mary - 24 Mar 2005 07:53 GMT
> > > > > > All cats are inside cats.
> > > > >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> I train my cats to use a leash and halter. It cuts down greatly on the above.

Good for you. I take one of my cats out into the fenced back yard when I can
stay with her. The other is way too fast and strong and resourceful. I
should
train her to the halter and leash if I could find one she cannot wriggle out
of.
It's lovely to see them play in the sunshine, chase bugs, etc. That is true.
 
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