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Diabetes Treatment

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Elle - 22 Mar 2005 21:43 GMT
My 7.5 year old cat has just been diagnosed with diabetes. Per my discussion
with his vet, I will likely start on him on some potassium today and then
decide on insulin injections and routine blood sugar testing to ultimately
get the insulin dosage right.

Can people hear please share your experiences with treating a cat with
diabetes?  In particular:

Did you give the injections yourself? Did the cat become more cooperative
with time?

What sort of costs will be incurred if I treat this?

How long did your diabetic cat live after beginning treatment?

I will be googling for more information, but any responses here would be
much appreciated.

Thank you.
fatbak - 22 Mar 2005 22:55 GMT
I sympathize, Elle. I had an elderly diabetic cat several years ago.

> Did you give the injections yourself? Did the cat become more cooperative
> with time?

Yes and not really. She was always a grouchy cat anyhow. She tolerated
the twice-a-day injections, but when she let us know she didn't want
them anymore (got up and walked away when she saw us coming with the
needle), we stopped them. She lived about a week after that.

> How long did your diabetic cat live after beginning treatment?

I think about six months. She was 18 or 19 at the time, though, so I
don't think it's really a reasonable comparison.

The following is info that is as best I can remember; please don't take
my word for it, but look for it as you research.

When cats are diabetic, their bodies continue to produce insulin but
stop recognizing it. Unlike humans, their bodies can suddenly start to
recognize insulin again and go back and forth. Giving insulin to a cat
that doesn't need it is bad.

Although my vet thought I was nuts, I learned how to check my cat's
blood sugar, which is more accurate and actually easier than checking
the sugar level in urine. I found explicit instructions how to do this
on the internet. Here are the basics:

I purchased a glucose testing kit from the local pharmacy - the tester
itself is often free or inexpensive with purchase of a box of test
strips. It's made for people to test their blood sugar with a finger
prick; for a cat, you can use their ear. There's a vein that runs up the
outside edge of the cat's ear. Stroke it upwards and it becomes more
visible. A pinprick with the tester on this vein will result in a drop
or two of blood - just enough for the test strip. My cat never minded
this part of it all, so I think there's not much feeling in this part of
the ear. I used the reading to determine how much insulin to give her,
twice a day. I had talked to the vet about the appropriate dosages for
ranges of readings.

I no longer have the sites bookmarked where I learned to do this, but
I'm sure you can find them or some similar by searching. The site I
learned the most from had photographs of the actual blood testing
procedure. It's awkward to do at first, but like anything, once you get
a routine, it becomes easier.

Good luck! From what I remember reading, it's very possible for your guy
to live happily for quite some time with diabetes.

Irene
Elle - 22 Mar 2005 23:28 GMT
Irene,

Thank you for sharing your specific experience and providing what appears to
be a great lead on doing blood sugar tests at home. I so far saw an internet
site or two that said the drugstore tests made for humans can be used on
cats. I asked my vet and one other vet if they would work with me to
accomplish such tests at home (provide suggestions and such, the time for
which of course I'd compensate them), but I am meeting with stiff
resistance. Tomorrow I get a lesson on giving the shots, but the cat won't
be there. Hopefully he'll offer at least moral support for doing the blood
sugar tests at home and adjusting the insulin appropriately.

My cat has loathed the vet since his second visit as a kitten. We hold him
down, at great bodily risk to ourselves and the cat, who typically loses
bladder/bowel control during the experience, just to get him his annual
vaccinations. They anesthesized him briefly yesterday to get a blood sample
and exam. Naturally that's very expensive, as well as traumatizing to my
poor cat, so I won't do this on a regular basis.

The only other thing bothering me at the moment is that I understand
delaying getting his blood sugar right may cause irreparable damage. He's
obviously a pretty unhappy cat right now. I told the vet that he had
deteriorated a lot since yesterday, but the vet didn't seem bothered that we
waited another day for the insulin. Maybe because he wanted to get the cat's
potassium level back up first? The cat got his first dose of potassium gel a
few minutes ago.

My cat had an abscess last year. It involved a lancing, draining, and
thorough cleansing several times a day. He was more-or-less cooperative as
we got into a routine. I have hope that he'll likewise get used to the daily
shots and likely regular blood sugar tests

Again, I am much obliged.

> I sympathize, Elle. I had an elderly diabetic cat several years ago.
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Irene
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 01:06 GMT
If a cat is stressed out its blood sugar can skyrocket, which in turn
can cause a false diagnosis of diabetes. What was your cat's number?

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Elle - 23 Mar 2005 02:47 GMT
363.

He has all the symptoms as well: weight loss, hair clump loss, drinking a
lot of water, urinating more than when he was younger, weak back legs.

The cat was anesthesized when the blood was taken. Not that this guarantees
normal blood levels.

> If a cat is stressed out its blood sugar can skyrocket, which in turn
> can cause a false diagnosis of diabetes. What was your cat's number?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 03:22 GMT
>363.

Well, that's not horrible. It could nbe 600 or higher.

>He has all the symptoms as well: weight
>loss, hair clump loss, drinking a lot of
>water, urinating more than when he was
>younger, weak back legs.

Then he defintiely needs to be on insulin NOW. If you can get it
quickly, I would recommend you start out with PZI insulin. It's more
expensive, but it works really well for cats and is becoming the insulin
of choice. If you do, make sure to use Idexx as the batches are
comercially manufactured on a large scale. If you get compounded PZI
from smaller pharmacies you may run the risk of inconsistency from one
bottle to the next, which makes it hard to know what will happen in
terms of dosing each time you change bottles.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Phil P. - 23 Mar 2005 21:37 GMT
> 363.

Hyperglycemia in the range of 300 to 400 mg/dl also occurs in cats that are
stressed by the trip to the vet.  Did your vet check his urine for sugar
(glycosuria)?  Cats with stress hyperglycemia usually do not have
glycosuria.

Serum fructosamine test also distinguishes diabetes from stress
hyperglycemia and will also provide an index of his average blood glucose
concentration over the last few weeks.  SF is inexpensive and only requires
a simple blood test.

If he's truly diabetic, 363 mg/dl isn't that bad at all! ;-)  His diabetes
should be very easy to control.  You might be able to get his BG down to the
normal range with dietary therapy alone.  Speak to your vet about a low
carbohydrate/high protein diet such as *canned* kitten food.  I've
successfully weaned several diabetic off insulin by feeding them low
carbohydrate diets - some had initial BG concentrations much higher than
your cat's.

> He has all the symptoms as well: weight loss,

He's losing weight because insulin deficiency causes decreased tissue
utilization of glucose, amino acids, and fatty acids.  So, he's actually
starving even though he's eating like a pig.  He probably always seems
hungry because little or no glucose is getting into the the cells of the
'satiety center' in the hypothalamus - which directly affects the feeling of
hunger.  The amount of glucose that gets into the cells in the satiety
center is controlled by insulin.  So, even though he probably eats like pig,
he still always feels hungry and continues to lose weight.  Once his
diabetes is under control, he should start to gain weight back because his
body will be able to use protein and fat efficiently.  His appetite should
also return to normal.

hair clump loss, drinking a
> lot of water, urinating more than when he was younger,

Glycosuria (sugar in the urine) creates an osmotic diuresis which causes
polyuria (increased urination).   The body compensates for the increased
water loses with polydipsia (increased drinking) to prevent dehydration.
IOW, he's not urinating more because he's drinking more, he's drinking more
because he's urinating more!  PU/PD should also resolve once he's regulated.

> weak back legs.

Rear leg weakness in diabetic cats is usually the result of 'diabetic
neuropathy'.  DN is usually caused by long-standing uncontrolled diabetes.
Potassium depletion from polyuria may also be a contributing factor.
Regulating his diabetes and potassium supplementation should (hopefully)
resolve the problem.

> The cat was anesthesized when the blood was taken. Not that this guarantees
> normal blood levels.

Stress hyperglycemia can persist for hours after the stessor has been
removed.  Thus, anesthesia probably had little if any effect on his BG.

Urine dipsticks are only good for checking keytones - not as an indication
of blood glucose.  Cats have a high renal threshold for glucose - could be
as high as 250-290 mg/dl.  Thus, a cat that tests negative for UG might
still be hyperglycemic and may lead to erroneously reducing or skipping an
insulin treatment -- which would initiate a disastrous sequence of events.

Another serious limitation of dipsticks is they cannot detect hypOglycemia.
The lowest they go is 'negative'.

But the most serious limitation of dipsticks is their inability to read
present UG at the time of testing.  The urine in the bladder at any given
time may be an accumulation of many hours of urine production.  IOW,
dipsticks can't distinguish postprandial spikes of a few hours earlier from
present UG.  This can lead to erroneously increasing the insulin dose.
*Never* make adjustments in insulin dosages based on dipstick readings and
without consulting your vet.

Home blood glucose monitoring is absolutely *essential*.  You can watch a
video on how to check a cat's blood glucose on my site:

http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest%5B1%5D.mpg

http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest.rm
.
Once you get the hang of BG testing, you can plot your own glucose curves at
home -- which are always more accurate than curves plotted in a vet's
clinic.  Plotting a curves involves little more than checking your cat's BG
every 2-3 hours for one day.

A word of caution:  If you switch your cat to a low carbohydrate diet,
you'll need to plot another glucose curve because his insulin requirements
will be less -- or quite possibly *none*.  In fact, you might want to speak
to your vet about a low carbohydrate diet before beginning insulin therapy.

From your post, I don't think you'll have much of a problem regulating and
keeping your cat regulated.

Best of luck,

Phil.
fatbak - 23 Mar 2005 02:58 GMT
> I asked my vet and one other vet if they would work with me to
> accomplish such tests at home (provide suggestions and such, the time for
> which of course I'd compensate them), but I am meeting with stiff
> resistance. Tomorrow I get a lesson on giving the shots, but the cat won't
> be there. Hopefully he'll offer at least moral support for doing the blood
> sugar tests at home and adjusting the insulin appropriately.

I met with resistance from my vets, too, and I still don't know why. I
offered to show them what I'd learned and they weren't interested. :-/

The vet I was working with humored me re the blood sugar tests, and she
told me how much insulin to give for different ranges. She did tell me
to call immediately if the reading fell above or below certain numbers.
I don't remember any of the numbers, so I'm sorry I can't give you
specifics.

We did find that distracting the cat with a savory treat while we gave
the injection helped it go a little more smoothly.

Good luck,
Irene
Elle - 23 Mar 2005 03:09 GMT
> Elle wrote:
> > I asked my vet and one other vet if they would work with me to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I met with resistance from my vets, too, and I still don't know why. I
> offered to show them what I'd learned and they weren't interested. :-/

IIRC there's some chatter from sites on the net about this: How vets won't
"get" diabetic cat management until they've done it themselves. Some accept
the education patients give them(!), but I imagine they're the exception.
(zuzu's site said something about this, I believe.)

> The vet I was working with humored me re the blood sugar tests, and she
> told me how much insulin to give for different ranges. She did tell me
> to call immediately if the reading fell above or below certain numbers.
> I don't remember any of the numbers, so I'm sorry I can't give you
> specifics.

That's okay. The net has some specifications on this.

As soon as my vet mentioned the number "363" today on the phone, I asked him
the units on this. I wanted to research it on the net and didn't know quite
where to start. He sounded a little embarrassed and said he didn't remember
the units. Which was honest. I felt bad--like I was quizzing him. Yet I
really didn't care about the units per se. I clarified and asked whether it
was some kind of measure of "blood sugar," and he said yes. So I'm slowly
picking up on the diabetes jargon.

> We did find that distracting the cat with a savory treat while we gave
> the injection helped it go a little more smoothly.

Sounds good.

My little cat seems a bit better after his first dose of potassium gel
several hours ago. But I am concerned about tonight. I want to get my own
blood test done at home and insulin into him by noon tomorrow.

> Good luck,

Thanks, Irene. It sounds like any cat would be lucky to have you as a
parent.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 03:56 GMT
>As soon as my vet mentioned the
>number "363" today on the phone, I asked
>him the units on this.

It depends on the type and strength of insulin and there is *no*
standard dose for a particular glucose number. Every cat is different
and has different insulin needs. If you use u-40 strength it's going to
be different from u-100, The humulin insulins are usually u-100 and
generally for the number you started with it is wise to start out with
1-2 units. Even then, it can take time for a dose to settle (a week is
average) and numbers can come down over that time so it's very important
to monitor glucose. It also depends on what your feedin your cat,
ideally, twice daily scheduled, measured meals of a low carb *canned*
food 12 hours apart is going to be the best course of action to get your
cat regulated. Carb content makes a big difference and it is important
to do the first curve and insulin dose based on the new diet. Feeding
dry food and then switching to canned can dramatically decrease insulin
needs and if the insulin dose remains the same you could kill your cat.
I recommmend a few flavors of Wellness canned food for diabetic cats.

For insulin, I would use PZI, which commonly comes as u-40, hwich means
that it takes 2.5 units to = 1 unit of regular u-100 insulin. There are
specific needles for each strength and it is VERY important to pay
attention to which ones you are buying so you don't accidentally OD your
cat. To further confuse you ;-) I have a client that uses u-100 needles
for her u-40 PZI. The reason for this is that her cat is very sensitive
and it took awhile for us to get him regulated. Even small, normally
used increases could dramatically change his numbers. By using the u-100
needles we were able to really micromanage his dose and tweak it a very
tiny amount as 2.5 units on the u-100 needle would only = 1 unit for the
u-40 insulin.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 01:03 GMT
>She tolerated the twice-a-day injections,
>but when she let us know she didn't want
>them anymore (got up and walked away
>when she saw us coming with the
>needle), we stopped them. She lived
>about a week after that.

What? You couldn't walk after her? It was better for her to suffer and
die than spend approximately 10 seconds a day givng her an insulin
injection?This is absolutely disgusting and unconscionable.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


fatbak - 23 Mar 2005 02:47 GMT
Chasing her down, cornering her, and having one person hold her down
while the other stuck a needle in her, while she was growling and
struggling - that was unconscionable stress to put on an elderly cat, in
my opinion. We were never able to sneak up on her when she was sleeping
- she was a light sleeper, and it got to where she would tense and growl
whenever we approached her, whether we had a needle or not. So it was
not simply a matter of walking after her, and we did not let her "suffer
and die" when it became apparent that it was time for her to go - we
called a vet who came to our house to euthanize her so as not to further
stress the cat with a trip to the vet's office. I didn't include all
these details in my response to the original poster because it wasn't
relevant to the questions.

In the rest of my post I describe what I did to be sure I was dosing
correctly. I feel very sure I took good care of my cat during her life
and during the end of her life.

Irene

>>She tolerated the twice-a-day injections,
>>but when she let us know she didn't want
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> - W.H. Murray
>  
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 03:28 GMT
>Chasing her down, cornering her, and
>having one person hold her down while
>the other stuck a needle in her, while she
>was growling and struggling - that was
>unconscionable stress to put on an elderly
>cat, in my opinion.

There are plenty of ways to get a cat to take insulin without resorting
to the above. Regardless, causing her to suffer and die a miserable
death from the subsequent ketoacidosis and acute renal failure that is a
result of withholding insulin is cruel and abusive, plain and simple. It
doesn't matter what you did before.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Rhonda - 23 Mar 2005 04:31 GMT
I don't like to judge someone when they obviously love their cat and
think they did the best thing, but having had a diabetic cat for two
years -- this one I don't understand.

I think you needed help finding a better way to do it, something less
stressful on all of you. I had to work with a little mind control on our
cat, because we were both so nervous. He growled and bit me at first,
but I knew it was the insulin or death for him. I tried different things
until we got it down. I don't think the needle hurts them that much, but
they can build scary thoughts in their minds, just like we do. I also
know that our cat was very aware of my own nervousness.

I wish you could have found help.

Rhonda

>>Chasing her down, cornering her, and
>>having one person hold her down while
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> - W.H. Murray
>  
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Mar 2005 01:42 GMT
> I sympathize, Elle. I had an elderly diabetic cat several years ago.
>
> > Did you give the injections yourself? Did the cat become more cooperative
> > with time?

My father had a diabetic cat, & at first he was convinced that the cat would
hate the injections, that he wouldn't be able to do it, & so it wouldn't be
worth it, etc., etc, but such was not the case.  He learned to give them,
easily.

I first learned to give sub-Q fluid injections to one of my cats.  She later
needed Procrit injections which, like the ones for diabetes, uses a much
finer needle (than for sub-Qs) - a piece of cake.  Takes a few seconds.

> Yes and not really. She was always a grouchy cat anyhow. She tolerated
> the twice-a-day injections, but when she let us know she didn't want
> them anymore (got up and walked away when she saw us coming with the
> needle), we stopped them. She lived about a week after that.

Well, to each their own, but... I can't agree with this.

Firstly, because the needle is so tiny & the injection is so quick, that the
amount of trauma (no matter what sort of definition is used for "trauma")
involved with the injections is negligible.  Plus, if one sneaks up behind a
cat - so they don't see you coming w/ the needle, or gives the injection
while they're sleeping, they often have no clue the injection even took
place.

Secondly, because how many cats will gladly take pills, for example?  If I
had taken the attitude of "Well, gee, she doesn't want the pills, so...",
then a cat of mine who had a chronic liver ailment & was hyperthyroid - both
of which required daily medication - would've lived... maybe a month??...
instead of 5 years, post-diagnoses.

Cathy
Mary - 23 Mar 2005 01:57 GMT
> Secondly, because how many cats will gladly take pills, for example?  If I
> had taken the attitude of "Well, gee, she doesn't want the pills, so...",
> then a cat of mine who had a chronic liver ailment & was hyperthyroid - both
> of which required daily medication - would've lived... maybe a month??...
> instead of 5 years, post-diagnoses.

Same with my Buddha. It became such an ordeal pilling her (last August
to this week) that we are now crushing the pills into a tablespoon of food,
which she balked at but eventually ate when I stood over her and urged her.
THEN I gave her the rest of the can of food! So today she wolfed the
medicated
tablespoon down without prompting.

Cats, like children (and many of us!) do not always know what is good
for them. It is part of our duty to figure that out and deliver it.
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Mar 2005 02:12 GMT
> Cats, like children (and many of us!) do not always know what is good
> for them. It is part of our duty to figure that out and deliver it.

Yep.  I wish cats were as easy as my niece was re: taking meds, once my
sister figured out a technique.  My niece hated the liquid antibiotics when
she was little.  However, once it dawned on my sister to sprinkle some
sprinkles (like for ice cream) on each spoonful of liquid med, no more
ordeals.  Simple trick that worked, but cats usually aren't as easy to
accommodate/trick...

Cathy
Cheryl - 23 Mar 2005 02:41 GMT
> Yep.  I wish cats were as easy as my niece was re: taking meds,
> once my sister figured out a technique.  My niece hated the
> liquid antibiotics when she was little.  However, once it dawned
> on my sister to sprinkle some sprinkles (like for ice cream) on
> each spoonful of liquid med, no more ordeals.  Simple trick that
> worked, but cats usually aren't as easy to accommodate/trick...

I remember a trick my dad used when we were kids to make us take
medicine. If it was a pill, he'd crush it and put it on a spoon and
pour on some Rootbeer.

Signature

Cheryl
/who is battling giving meds and eye drops to Shamrock now that he
got beat up by Rhett and looks as if he almost lost his eye.

Marcia - 26 Mar 2005 11:59 GMT
> > Yep.  I wish cats were as easy as my niece was re: taking meds,
> > once my sister figured out a technique.  My niece hated the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> medicine. If it was a pill, he'd crush it and put it on a spoon and
> pour on some Rootbeer.

I must be lucky then.  I crush his tablet up and mix in his food and
he eats it, and while he's eating I give him his injections and he
doesn't flinch, but then my cat is food obsessed and NOTHING stops him
eating.  Also the needles are SO tiny I don't think he actually feels
it, in fact he turns around as if to say, where's my injection mum.  I
sometimes wonder whether he doesn't actually realise it's good for
him, as he was so poorly before, perhaps he knows it makes him better?
Cathy Friedmann - 26 Mar 2005 17:11 GMT
> > > Yep.  I wish cats were as easy as my niece was re: taking meds,
> > > once my sister figured out a technique.  My niece hated the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I must be lucky then.  I crush his tablet up and mix in his food and
> he eats it,

Yes, I think you've lucked out!  I think many - if not most - cats will
refuse to eat meds that are mixed in with their food - they're too canny
(whereas dogs tend to be the other way around, re: food & just gulp it down
with the med in the middle!)

and while he's eating I give him his injections and he
> doesn't flinch, but then my cat is food obsessed and NOTHING stops him
> eating.  Also the needles are SO tiny I don't think he actually feels
> it,

IME/observation, I think you're right.

Cathy

in fact he turns around as if to say, where's my injection mum.  I
> sometimes wonder whether he doesn't actually realise it's good for
> him, as he was so poorly before, perhaps he knows it makes him better?
Marcia - 27 Mar 2005 13:13 GMT
> > Cheryl <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns9621D2DB162Dshads@216.196.97.136>...
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> > sometimes wonder whether he doesn't actually realise it's good for
> > him, as he was so poorly before, perhaps he knows it makes him better?

Also, the vet said the tablets are yeast flavoured and they're
supposed to like yeast.  In fact my partners cat was caught eating
Marmite the other day off a spoon (yuk).  We've written to Marmite to
tell them as it would make a good video.
Phil P. - 23 Mar 2005 21:44 GMT
> I sympathize, Elle. I had an elderly diabetic cat several years ago.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> them anymore (got up and walked away when she saw us coming with the
> needle), we stopped them. She lived about a week after that.

Let me get this straight:  You let your cat die because she didn't want her
insulin injections?  What's wrong with you?
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2005 01:00 GMT
You will find this page helpful:

http://community.webtv.net/getcathelp/diabetes

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Elle - 23 Mar 2005 03:02 GMT
> You will find this page helpful:
>
> http://community.webtv.net/getcathelp/diabetes

Yes, very nice. I skimmed it (and several of its links) and have already
bookmarked it.

I think I'm a bit more stressed at having to tell the vet, with all due
respect, I want to do the blood tests myself. His assistant was quite
adamant that I couldn't do them. I'll be prepared to smile, pay the bill,
say thanks, and walk, hopefully with the insulin and a supply of syringes in
hand.

I have the time to give this cat, and the blood sugars curves that I'll
likely eventually do don't look that tough. The cat will be happier, and
less stressed, having all this done at home.

Thanks zuzu, Cathy, Mary, and Cheryl for sharing your experiences. It's all
helpful.
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Mar 2005 03:07 GMT
> > You will find this page helpful:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks zuzu, Cathy, Mary, and Cheryl for sharing your experiences. It's all
> helpful.

You're welcome.  I agree that the more you can successfully do at home, Vs.
at the vet's office, the less stressful.

Cathy
Chris - 23 Mar 2005 03:03 GMT
There is a wonderful site for pets with diabetes...  They have all sorts of
info for care & some very helpful boards include one for cats with diabetes.
They were extremely helpful when my parents' dog was diagnosed...

http://www.petdiabetes.org/

> My 7.5 year old cat has just been diagnosed with diabetes. Per my
> discussion
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Thank you.
Elle - 23 Mar 2005 03:23 GMT
> http://www.petdiabetes.org/

Thanks, Chris. Looks good. The more "authoritative" viewpoints representing
some kind of consensus I can get, the better.
Rhonda - 23 Mar 2005 04:41 GMT
Hi Elle,

We had a cat, Bob, diagnosed with diabetes about 3 years ago. Our vet at
the time said a diabetic cat lives an average of 2 years after
diagnosis, and that proved true for our cat. He died though of cancer,
so I think he could have lived many more years with just diabetes.

As for cost of diabetes, it wasn't horrible until he had the
pancreatitus complications. We did feed him special food (Purina DM,)
the insulin was about $30 a bottle and lasted for months, and the
syringes were not that expensive. You can sometimes get home blood
glucose monitors for free or nearly free, because the company wants you
to buy their test strips.

There is a WONDERFUL message board on www.felinediabetes.com. Those
people have cats who have had diabetes for years and years. They know
the ins and outs and can answer most any question. They also never
sleep, you can post an emergency at 2am and usually someone answers!

Good luck with your cat. I hope you have many wonderful years with him.

Rhonda

> My 7.5 year old cat has just been diagnosed with diabetes. Per my discussion
> with his vet, I will likely start on him on some potassium today and then
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thank you.
Elle - 23 Mar 2005 05:42 GMT
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Rhonda, especially about costs I might
expect.

> Hi Elle,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Rhonda
Masha - 23 Mar 2005 17:51 GMT
> My 7.5 year old cat has just been diagnosed with diabetes. Per my discussion
> with his vet, I will likely start on him on some potassium today and then
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>My cat has diabetes and has had it now for a couple of years (he's 15).  He
also has a kidney complaint which I give him a tablet for each day.  I give
him the injections myself, at feeding time, and he doesn't flinch at all
(you do it on the fleshy part of their back where their mother would have
picked them up by).  The needles are so tiny it's quite hard to see the
dosage if you have bad eyesight but it doesn't hurt the cat at all, I find
it's best to do it when he's eating (he's a pig!) so he's distracted.  I
promise you that once you've done the first one (and got over your nerves)
it's really easy.  If course the hard part is convincing your usual cat
minder that it's easy when you have to go away!  My cat had insurance, so
they covered it for the first year, but (I'm in England) it costs about ?30
for the insulin, which lasts about 3 months in the fridge, and you have to
pay for the syringes and sharps box.  I have been told that some diabetic
cats can live to be about 20, so I'm hoping my baby lasts a while longer.
Since he began his treatment he has been a changed cat, up to his old
tricks.  He has had the odd minor hypo (I thought it was hiccups) and I have
been told to rub a small amount of honey round his gums if it happens again.
I hope this helps, you can email me direct if I can tell you anything else.

Good luck!
Elle - 23 Mar 2005 21:36 GMT
"Masha" <mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk> wrote > "Elle"
> >My cat has diabetes and has had it now for a couple of years (he's 15).  He
> also has a kidney complaint which I give him a tablet for each day.  I give
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Good luck!

Thanks, Masha. The vet this morning gave me a similar tip about the honey
(or Karo corn syrup).

Update:
My cat received his first insulin shot about 1.5 hours ago. He has become
progressively worse since Monday. I am not optimistic. The next four hours
(when in theory a correct dose of insulin should have kicked in) will tell a
lot more. Then the next day, if he makes it.

I do not know why the vet did not prioritize getting insulin into him; I am
certain Zuzu is right about this. I think I should have been more aggressive
yesterday afternoon with the vet when I realized I would really prefer he
start on the insulin right away. I let his rude assistant push me around.

On the other hand, I could have moved quicker.

The cat is in a shallow box next to my desk now, on a pillow and towel and
surrounded by an old T-shirt and some rags. I think he's breathing better
than an hour and a half ago. He repositioned himself somewhat a few minutes
ago.

I dug into the web sites people provided and maybe one or two more I found
googling. They're excellent. I had a concise and efficient but intelligent
discussion with the vet this morning. About the blood monitoring, I told
him, "With all due respect, sir, I plan to do this at home. I already have
the glucometer I plan to buy picked out." He was great about this and said I
could all in the numbers and he would help me to adjust the insulin dosage
(though I think I have a good handle on how to do this at this point). He
does seem to have a lot of experience with treating diabetics, including
training his wife to treat their diabetic cat (injections and all), who then
lived many years more. I avoided the rude assistant.

Uup, he just lifted his head big time and is now trying to get out of the
box!

Back to my cat.
Elle - 23 Mar 2005 21:38 GMT
> Back to my cat.

I signed off before sending the above to post.

My cat died 20 minutes later.
Karen - 23 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT
Oh dear :((((( I'm sooooo sorry :(

> > Back to my cat.
>
> I signed off before sending the above to post.
>
> My cat died 20 minutes later.
Mary - 24 Mar 2005 01:05 GMT
> > Back to my cat.
>
> I signed off before sending the above to post.
>
> My cat died 20 minutes later.

God, Elle, I am so sorry.
Cathy Friedmann - 24 Mar 2005 01:06 GMT
> > Back to my cat.
>
> I signed off before sending the above to post.
>
> My cat died 20 minutes later.

I'm so sorry.

Cathy
Rhonda - 24 Mar 2005 02:34 GMT
Oh no! Shoot.

I am sorry you both had to go through this.

Rhonda

>>Back to my cat.
>
> I signed off before sending the above to post.
>
> My cat died 20 minutes later.
Marcia - 24 Mar 2005 13:55 GMT
> Oh no! Shoot.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > My cat died 20 minutes later.

I know I'm new to this group, but my heart still goes out to you, I've
had so many near misses with Otis, I can't imagine how you must be
feeling, I'm so sorry.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 24 Mar 2005 03:30 GMT
Elle, I am so sorry about your cat. I just responded to you and then
read this latest message. :-(

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Monique Y. Mudama - 24 Mar 2005 22:19 GMT
>> Back to my cat.
>
> I signed off before sending the above to post.
>
> My cat died 20 minutes later.

Oh no =/

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Elle - 25 Mar 2005 01:09 GMT
Dear Karen, Mary, Cathy, Rhonda, Megan (zuzu), Cathy, Marcia, Monique, and
Irene,

I don't know any of you personally, but your posts leave no question in my
mind that the kindness of strangers helps. I am quite broken up, as I
realize any of you would be or have been in the past. Thank you for your
posts, though I do not deserve your sympathy.

Megan, yes, blood was drawn on Monday between 2:30 and 4 PM. The vet said
he'd call around noon Tuesday with the lab results. I called Tuesday morning
first thing, as my cat had become exponentially weaker, and I wanted to know
if perhaps the results were in early and also wanted to tell the office of
my cat's deteriorated condition. The vet called with the lab results at 1:30
PM.

I am the idiot here. I should have brought my cat in three weeks sooner,
when I first realized he was losing weight. I didn't put two and two
together, as he was eating fine (though with a change of appetite around
January for mostly canned food), litter box looked fine (though in
hindsight, his urine clumps had indeed become stickier) and was michievous
as ever. It was only Sunday that any unusual lethargy became apparent:
Purring and meowing for food stopped. No waking me up in the morning.

Phil and Stephanie: thanks for adding more to the thread on treating
diabetes cats. I'm sure it will help someone.

Elle
Mary - 25 Mar 2005 01:42 GMT
> Dear Karen, Mary, Cathy, Rhonda, Megan (zuzu), Cathy, Marcia, Monique, and
> Irene,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> realize any of you would be or have been in the past. Thank you for your
> posts, though I do not deserve your sympathy.

Elle, I know your heart is broken now and you're blaming yourself--
but none of us is perfect, and denial is a natural thing that sometimes
happens when our animals get sick. We don't want to think they are
really sick because we love them, so we tell ourselves that whatever
it is will pass. I did that when my old cat stopped eating--and made
other mistakes when she was in her last illness. I know how sorry
you are that you did not take her in earlier. (It seems your vet might
have given her insulin earlier, anyway. ) Please don't beat yourself
up. Your posting here has helped others learn; I will be more careful
from reading about your experiences. I hope you can let yourself
grieve without piling on the guilt.
Cathy Friedmann - 25 Mar 2005 02:01 GMT
> Dear Karen, Mary, Cathy, Rhonda, Megan (zuzu), Cathy, Marcia, Monique, and
> Irene,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> as ever. It was only Sunday that any unusual lethargy became apparent:
> Purring and meowing for food stopped. No waking me up in the morning.

Yes, you do deserve our sympathy!  It's relaatively easy, in hindsight, to
put 2 + 2 together.  But not always nearly as easy beforehand...

Cathy

> Phil and Stephanie: thanks for adding more to the thread on treating
> diabetes cats. I'm sure it will help someone.
>
> Elle
Marcia - 25 Mar 2005 13:40 GMT
> > Dear Karen, Mary, Cathy, Rhonda, Megan (zuzu), Cathy, Marcia, Monique, and
> > Irene,
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> >
> > Elle

You do deserve sympathy.  My cat doesn't like being picked up, and it
was only when ny neice picked him up and said he seemed lighter that I
realised she was right and took him to the vet.  He'd always been a
bit of a porker so I didn't think it strange that he was always
hungry, I too beat myself up over this.  In fact I beat myself up when
he broke his leg by falling off a balcony, I'd left the window open as
it was hot and he went out there - but in the end you do your best for
them and it's hard to pick up when they're ill when you see them every
day.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 25 Mar 2005 02:16 GMT
Elle,
Don't beat yourself up over this. Diabetes is a condition that is
sometimes hard to recognize when you don't have experience with it. My
guess is that, despite this tragedy, the experience you have gained will
help you to help another cat in the future.  

What I would like to know is if your vet tested your cat for ketones in
the urine. It should have been done, especially since there was no way
to know ow long this had been going on and your cat was exhibiting
neuropathy. I'm guessing he didn't since he sent you home and your cat
died so quickly. If he didn't, as far as I'm concerned he may be liable
for the death of your cat as this is a standard practice to test for
ketones if a cat is diagnosed with diabetes and at that time is also
exhibiting neuropathy. If positive, your cat would have been
hospitalized immediately and been put on IV fluids. You couldn't have
possibly known all this and it was the responsibility of your vet to
make you aware of these things. I'm assuming your cat died because he
went into kidney failure. Did the bloodwork show high kidney values?

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


zuzu22@webtv.net - 24 Mar 2005 03:26 GMT
Elle,
Has bloodwork been done? I'm concerned that he is so sick and if he has
gone on too long without getting insulin he could be ketoacidic and
start to have kidney problems.You also need to check your cat's urine
for ketones. You can get a bottle of ketostix at any pharmacy without a
prescription. Simply dip the stick in his urine or hold it in the stream
when he's peeing and then follow the timing in the instructions. If he
shows ketones he needs to go to the hospital ASAP.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Cathy Friedmann - 24 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT
See Elle's earlier post; he died a few hours ago. :-(

Cathy

> Elle,
> Has bloodwork been done? I'm concerned that he is so sick and if he has
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
steflink01@yahoo.com - 24 Mar 2005 01:56 GMT
I got my cat off insulin in two months with this:
1/4 cup of Royal Canin 38 2x a day and a 1/3 can of Fancy Feast flaked
variety. I was militant about the diet. The only treats he received
were freeze-dried (and very, very stinky) shrimp--and I kept them at a
minimum.
He was 25+ as a "healthy" cat--then he went down to 17 when he was
sick--now he is 18 and I'm working on getting him down another 2-3
lbs.very slowly.
His glucose level was 340 1.5 months ago before I became militant about
the diet--today it's 135--not as low as I'd like, but I'm working on
it--definitely a decent level though.
Too bad I can't get a little treadmill for him, lol..
He had two major hypo episodes in two months,so I won't miss that. The
insulin scared me. The more I tried to correct the diet--the worse it
was because I was doing well in the diet correction. It's an inexact
science unless you are willing to home test--I just couldn't stomach
making  my guy more of a pin cushion.
Stephanie
Monique Y. Mudama - 24 Mar 2005 22:18 GMT
> it's really easy.  If course the hard part is convincing your usual cat
> minder that it's easy when you have to go away!  

When I was in high school over ten years ago, I was one of several kids who
would catsit Patty, a diabetic old cat.  She was extremely easy-going and
didn't even seem to notice that you were poking her with a needle while she
was eating.

Of course, it depends on the cat.  Oscar hates other people.  When I have
friends catsit, they report that she stands on the support beams above the
basement and hisses at them.  I don't know what we'd do if she had diabetes
and we wanted to go on vacation.  She hates other cats, too, so a kennel would
be awful for her.

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Marcia - 26 Mar 2005 12:03 GMT
> > it's really easy.  If course the hard part is convincing your usual cat
> > minder that it's easy when you have to go away!  
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> and we wanted to go on vacation.  She hates other cats, too, so a kennel would
> be awful for her.

Again I must be lucky having a fairly docile cat.  When I go away I
have two choices (not my partner who is needle phobic and a waste of
time!) - but either the nurse from the vets does the injection and
feeds him (it's expensive that way but she's excellent with him), or I
have a very quietly spoken friend who the cat adores, especially as he
tickles his tum for hours at a time, so he often stays at my place -
which is great cos then the house and the cat get looked after.
J. Otto Tennant - 24 Mar 2006 02:45 GMT
[... I delete ...]

>Can people hear please share your experiences with treating a cat with
>diabetes?  In particular:

I second your request, even though I am pretty late in commenting.
One of my cats has very elevated blood glucose.

>Did you give the injections yourself? Did the cat become more cooperative
>with time?

I have not yet started insulin injections.  Somehow, I think that
Tasmania might become cooperative, but not with me:  my anti-
depressant medication causes me to tremble, and I'm taking another
drug for that, but *I* would not like to get any sort of injection
from me.

>What sort of costs will be incurred if I treat this?

As yet unknown.

My concern is that I myself am Type II Diabetic.  My physician
(I think that any physician should be a vet first, but that
is another topic) prescribed glipizide (trade name glucotrol: it
sound like something I would use to kill glips with) and Actos.
These two drugs seem to be more or less controlling my diabetes.

I am a mammal; Tasmania is a mammal.  I am a male, so I am accustomed
to drugs for osteoporosis working only for human femals; simian
drugs might not work on felines.

The vet said that insulin injections were the only treatment.  I have
not asked her, but I wonder if the FDA isn't doing something
wretched here.  White mice are different from humans (primarily because
they have been bred to be susceptible to cancers.)

I am an omnivore, Tasmania is a carnivore, so our internal chemistries
are different.  Still, I don't see, offhand, why a diabetes treatment
for humans ought not work for a feline.

Thoughts?  

(It has been a year or so since I got my home Linux system up
enough to use 'nn' again; I apologize for my tardy postings.)

>How long did your diabetic cat live after beginning treatment?

>I will be googling for more information, but any responses here would be
>much appreciated.

>Thank you.

Signature

J.Otto Tennant                                                   jotto@pobox.com
                  Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit.
             Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

dnr - 24 Mar 2006 03:12 GMT
>>Can people hear please share your experiences with treating a cat with
>>diabetes?  In particular:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>Thank you.
> J.Otto Tennant

Good reasoning, Otto, but as someone who also has Type II and takes
exactly the same oral meds for it as you do, I remind you that humans
requiring insulin injections for *either* their *worse than ours* Type II
OR their Type I, which will kill them quick w/o regular insulin, have
*worse* diabetes than we do. Your vet has told you your cat has
diabetes; it needs insulin injections, trembling hands or not. You grab
the cat's neck scruff skin (like while its eating) and stick the very tiny
needle in (like tuberculin syringe: tiny, tiny needle...your cat won't
even feel it and you can shake all you want).
The FDA has nothing to do w/it, Otto. Bottom line: your cat will
die w/o insulin injections, just like humans w/Type I would. Forget
oral meds for your cat. I kept a diabetic cat alive by regular care
like this for 5 years after diagnosis so I know what I'm talking about.
m_kelbell@sbcglobal.net - 24 Mar 2006 12:43 GMT
> [... I delete ...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> are different.  Still, I don't see, offhand, why a diabetes treatment
> for humans ought not work for a feline.

Insulin is insulin.  No problem there.  You don't need a special 'cat' type
insulin to treat - human/vet grade works fine.

My brother's 16 year old cat had diabetes.  The shots themselves were no
problem, but his kitty did get very good at hiding every morning.  The shots
didn't hurt her (see desc. of injections), I just don't think she liked
being handled.  She lived for  1.5 years after starting the shots and died
from other complications of old age.

This is a life or death situation for your kitty.  If you want to keep her
alive, she must have the shots.

-- maryjane

> J.Otto Tennant
> jotto@pobox.com
>                   Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit.
>              Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
dnr - 25 Mar 2006 06:45 GMT
> "J. Otto Tennant"
.>>>Can people hear please share your experiences with treating a cat with
>>>diabetes?  In particular:
>> I second your request, even though I am pretty late in commenting.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> alive, she must have the shots.
> -- maryjane

Insulin, Otto, and the sooner the better for your cat. Insulin is a cheap
medicine, especially compared to those expensive oral diabetes meds
we take. I, however, do not need or take anti-depressants and if they
make you shake bad or you do *not* want to do the *life-saving* (for
your diabetic cat) routine of regular insulin injections as I described,
get someone else to do it ASAP or your cat will go into pancreatitis
and if you think your last vet bill was high, you gotta nuther think
comin' from vet treating pancreatitis! Either way, take action, now.
P.S. Those two diabetes meds you mentioned (the ones I take also)
have NOTHING to do with osteoporosis! (???).
 
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