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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / February 2005POLL - Is it OK to breed your cat?
I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat.  Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG >I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is >OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. >BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who >wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. No - adopt instead. -mhd > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. > BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who > wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. No, it's not okay, in my book. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* >From: "KellyH" Kelly@farringtonsNOSPAM.net >I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is >OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. Well I guess you can count me an extremist too. There's no reason in this day and age with the overpopulation the way it is for a person to breed their animal. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: "KellyH" Kelly@farringtonsNOSPAM.net > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and age with the overpopulation the way it is for a person to breed their >animal. Or themselves .... J > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. > BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who > wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. No, it is not a good idea. I echo Lauren's comments. There are plenty of sweet and loving cats already available; why add to a pet overpopulation problem? > I echo Lauren's comments. There are plenty of sweet and loving cats > already available; why add to a pet overpopulation problem? Absolutely. Priscilla Signature"Just because I don't throw a hissy fit and leave on account of the 'Jesus is my boyfriend' music doesn't mean I approve of it --- it just means I've learned to understand the difference between having a different opinion from someone and having a different religion." - Leslie Terrell in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal No, it is not OK. http://community.webtv.net/zuzu22/overpopulation Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is >OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. >BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who >wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. As long as you are committed to keeping and caring for the kittens should you not be able to find suitable homes for them, then, yes, I would say it is OK. I'd have serious, serious doubts about someone who allowed their cat to have more than one litter this way, however. And I don't think it's OK if you're not prepared to provide a caring home for the kittens if you can't find others who will adopt them. > As long as you are committed to keeping and caring for the kittens should > you not be able to find suitable homes for them, then, yes, I would say it > is OK. I'd have serious, serious doubts about someone who allowed their > cat to have more than one litter this way, however. And I don't think it's > OK if you're not prepared to provide a caring home for the kittens if you > can't find others who will adopt them. Just curious, but why should a female cat have to suffer through heat and carrying a litter just because someone wants kittens? If someone wants kittens that bad, there are plenty already out there. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > Just curious, but why should a female cat have to suffer through heat and > carrying a litter just because someone wants kittens? Life is full of people making such decisions. If someone wants > kittens that bad, there are plenty already out there. Yes, there are. But the question was about if someone wanted *their* cat to have kittens, was it OK? That they want *their* cat to have kittens is a given in the question asked. I have responded to that question. > >I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > >OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you're not prepared to provide a caring home for the kittens if you can't > find others who will adopt them. What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the next, and the next? How can you justify those? -L. > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > next, and the next? How can you justify those? Seriously? OK, I'll answer that, but the second this descends into a flame war, I'm outta here! (I predict it'll happen in response to this post.) If I allow my cat to have kittens (which I have done once) it is up to me to find suitable homes for them (which I did). My definition of suitable is a home where they will be cared for appropriately and not allowed to breed at random. If, however, the homes which I find for those kittens allow them to have a litter themselves, they take on that responsibility for their cats. I am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. But it is their responsibility. > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. > But it is their responsibility. I am so not surprised. That's all the "flame" you'll get from me. You are not worth the expense of energy. People like you are a dime a dozen, and fill the shelters with unwanted cats and the streets with suffering animals that breed more suffering animals. Bleah. >If I allow my cat to have kittens (which I have done once) it is up to me to >find suitable homes for them (which I did). My definition of suitable is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. >But it is their responsibility. You've used variations of the word "responsible" several times. When, in fact, you're advocating the most irresponsible thing a person can do in a country that euthanizes millions of cats each year, simply for lack of homes. Those healthy animals doomed for death are the product of the exact kind of thinking you illustrate in your post. Giving you the benefit of the doubt and for argument's sake, let's say your litter was accidental. The responsible thing to do would be to neuter those kittens before you homed them. Sherry Sherry > >If I allow my cat to have kittens (which I have done once) it is up to me to > >find suitable homes for them (which I did). My definition of suitable is a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > do would be to neuter those kittens before you homed them. > Sherry I just know that neither Ashley nor Slimdickwad have EVER been in a room full of lovely cats and kittens who all need homes yesterday and are scheduled for execution in the following week. I just know it. > From: "Ashley" <ashleyjaneNOSPAM@xtra.co.nz> > Organization: Xtra [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. > But it is their responsibility. You predict a flame war because what you just said is as good as saying "I wanted kittens despite the overpopulation. I placed them with people and don't take any responsibility for adding to the overpopulation because if those people don't spay/neuter it's not MY fault". And just how is that responsible? You know exactly how it is. > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. > But it is their responsibility. So, in short, you pass the buck. Do you believe that is "responsible" pet ownership? You HAVE TO take responsibility for every life that *you* create. You are responsible for every generation after the cat you breed. If you had not bred your cat - the others couldn't have existed. It's really that simple. I have to wonder if you really comprehend the cat overpopulation problem in this country. I don't mean this as a flame - I seriously don't believe you understand what "cat overpopulation" means. Have you ever seen a dead pile of previously healthy cats? I seriously suggest you take a trip to your local shelter and ask to see it at the end of the day when they euthanize. I guarantee you would never advocate breeding of any kind, again. It will give you new perspective on why so many of us are against breeding. -L. > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. > But it is their responsibility. Placing the kittens in suitable homes would displace potential homes for kittens alreadly in shelters. Thus you would be contributing to the overpopulation problem and the slaughter of 4-6 kittens who may have had homes were it not for the kittens you bred. By breeding and keeping littens, you're also displacing a home for 4-6 shelter kittens because if you want kittens so bad, you could have adopted kittens already in shelters. Phil > > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Phil Both SlimPeabrain and Ashley know these things, as they have been said over and over here. They just don't care. The most important thing is that they have cute widdle fuzzy wuzzy kittens from THEIR SPECIAL CAT. These are indeed the people who are responsible for the problem. The type of people Oscare Wilde said could "go all around the world without ever getting out of their vest pocket." >From: "Ashley" ashleyjaneNOSPAM@xtra.co.nz > If, however, the homes which I find for those kittens allow them to >have a litter themselves, they take on that responsibility for their cats. I >am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. >But it is their responsibility. Great, just put it off on someone else :( ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > am responsible for finding homes that I believe will do that responsibly. > But it is their responsibility. **Ashley, You have common sense about this matter and are obviously a responsible person. This 'debate' should be geared towards, and Only towards, the many idiots and fools who have no sense of honor and responsibilty in and by taking care of their loved ones and animals. It's really too bad that many seem so jaded and adamant that there are simply No people left on earth who are still worthy to be responsible for thier own decisions. No one better 'cookie cutter' me into that common mold. ML > This 'debate' should be geared towards, and Only towards, the many idiots > and fools who have no sense of honor and responsibilty in and by taking care > of their loved ones and animals. It's really too bad that many seem so jaded > and adamant that there are simply No people left on earth who are still > worthy to be responsible for thier own decisions. No one better 'cookie > cutter' me into that common mold. I think we clearly recognize that you are responsible for your own decisions. The problem is that you also appear to be dodging the consequences of those decisions. Free will is about the freedom to do evil as well as to do good. The result of a free decision is not ipso facto good. Priscilla Signature"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever. The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal." - QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal > > > What about those kitten's kittens, and the next generation, and the > > > next, and the next? How can you justify those? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and fools who have no sense of honor and responsibilty in and by taking care > of their loved ones and animals. "Their loved ones and animals" - therein lies the defect in your reasoning. This isn't only about *your* cats or my cats - its about the well-being of cats as a *species*. I don't understand how you can say you love cats, yet breed cats who will indirectly cause the death of 4-6 cats in shelters who might have been given homes were it not for the cats you *intentionally* bred. Do you see how your self-gratification is killing members of the very species you love? I dearly love my oldest cat and desparetly want to keep a part of her alive forever - so I truly understand how you feel. But my love of the feline species, and their well-being, takes precedence over my own selfish want. Think about it. Phil It can be tempting, when your pet is so great. But it IS wrong to bring more cats into this world. Even if you find them all happy homes, they may end up having one or two litters...before you know it you a responsible for the beginning of lots of cats. On the other hand, a litter of kittens is such a joy! Ask your friend to call a few rescue groups, they always need foster homes for pregnant kitties. She can make herself available to foster, thus enjoying the babies while being responsible. P.S. Nice to meet you all, I'm new here!-Becky > It can be tempting, when your pet is so great. But it IS wrong to > bring more cats into this world. Even if you find them all happy [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > P.S. Nice to meet you all, I'm new here!-Becky Welcome, Becky! > On the other hand, a litter of kittens is such a joy! Ask your friend > to call a few rescue groups, they always need foster homes for pregnant > kitties. She can make herself available to foster, thus enjoying the > babies while being responsible. > > P.S. Nice to meet you all, I'm new here!-Becky The person I was referring to is another poster on this ng, with whom I have been having a spat. I can attest to the joys and heartaches of foster mommas and kittens. I 've had a few, and it is a neat experience. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. > BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who > wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. I do not think breeding a regular mog' is OK. (I don't have a problem with purebred cat breeding though, albeit with various caveats relating to conformation, genetic health and such). Steve. >I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is >OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. >BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who >wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. No, it is not OK to breed just any cat. The chances of the kittens inheriting the traits of the mother are close to zero. Even breeders, breeding known lines, can not control traits in all offspring. If a person wants the joy of raising kittens, please send them to me.:) I can find them a pregnant female in no time. Animal Control is euthanizing beautiful pregnant females constantly. BarB I think it is completely unnecessary, at least in the U.S. Way too many pets need homes. > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. > BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just someone with a regular old moggy who > wants kittens that are just as sweet and special as their cat. >I think it is completely unnecessary, at least in the U.S. Way too many > pets need homes. Amen. I guess there will be a lot of people joining Mary and I in the loony bin :) Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not > think it is OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering > who else feels this way. BTW - this is not a breeder, it's just > someone with a regular old moggy who wants kittens that are just > as sweet and special as their cat. Kelly, you're neither extreme in your passion of this, nor are you a lunatic. No, it isn't ok to intentionally breed a pet cat. I have issues about breeding pedigrees, too, but that's just me. Even if *everyone* stopped breeding their pet cats, there would be no shortage of kittens to become pets. I can't imagine you're going to get many replies here saying that it's ok. SignatureCheryl > I have been labeled an extremist and a lunatic because I do not think it is > OK for someone to breed their cat. I'm wondering who else feels this way. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > -Kelly ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens needs, care, and placement. Isn't this America after all? ML > ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens > needs, care, and placement. Isn't this America after all? Oh, joy, yet another self-centered american that thinks that the "interweb" is somehow constrained to national boundaries. This may come as a revelation to you, but the US isn't the only country with running water, electricity, and even newsgroup access! Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > > and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *** My point seems to have flown past your head. Sorry about your comprehension problem. ML > > ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > > and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This may come as a revelation to you, but the US isn't the only country with > running water, electricity, and even newsgroup access! 8) *snicker* >> > ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are >> > loving, and very responsible and will be completely responsible [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 8) *snicker* It occured to me after I posted this that I'm still not sure what responsible pet ownership might have to do with being American (as a whole, we're clearly *not* responsible, as can be seen in the astounding number of animals euthanized because there's no room for them) ... and if the point is that America is all about freedom, well, so far I'm not aware that anyone has marched Slim at gun point to get her cat neutered. So she's free to blather on and make incredibly irresponsible decisions. And we're free to chastise her for it on public fora. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > From: "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > to blather on and make incredibly irresponsible decisions. And we're free to > chastise her for it on public fora. What irks me is how "we're in America" is trotted out for every totty headed idea that someone dreams up. Being "in America" and having more freedom than many doesn't mean you just get to do anything that you want to do. In fact, it *should* entail more informed decisions than anywhere because of the resources available and it should also imply more responsibility to monitor one's own behavior in the society so that there is a good interactive community. Unfortunately those that like to raise the banner for their own selfish needs are the ones that cause the most grief. > What irks me is how "we're in America" is trotted out for every totty headed > idea that someone dreams up. Being "in America" and having more freedom than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > community. Unfortunately those that like to raise the banner for their own > selfish needs are the ones that cause the most grief. Particularly on foreign soil. -L. > What irks me is how "we're in America" is trotted out for every totty headed > idea that someone dreams up. Being "in America" and having more freedom than > many doesn't mean you just get to do anything that you want to do. The short version is that "rights" and "responsibilities" go hand in hand. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > What irks me is how "we're in America" is trotted out for every totty headed > idea that someone dreams up. Being "in America" and having more freedom than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > community. Unfortunately those that like to raise the banner for their own > selfish needs are the ones that cause the most grief. Preach it sister! :-) Priscilla Signature"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever. The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal." - QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal >***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, >and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens >needs, care, and placement. Isn't this America after all? > >ML You're very short-sighted. I would suggest that you volunteer at a kill shelter for a couple of weeks (or even days) and come back and tell us that again. Sherry > >***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > >and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I choose to make the decision, period. Being here in American, we have more free rights than we could dare to dream. We are spoiled. Never having to cover our faces with a cloth just because we venture out in public, or decide to go to the market. Never having to really worry just because we are simply a woman. Many woman/ people are treated on par like an animals in other countries. Degraded and devalued and even sold to a potential owner/ husband just like a cow or dog might be. This certainly happens in India and in other countries where they/ women have no real rights. Yes, I am so, so, happy to love here in American where I have rights, am protected and can make my own decisions freely. People are so spoiled here. I know this. I have traveled abroad twice already, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are a great country. ML > > >***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > > >and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I > choose to make the decision, period. It is, in short, your right to be wrong. And you are exercising it. We get it. You are a cat abuser. > > ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take > > care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I > > choose to make the decision, period. > > It is, in short, your right to be wrong. And you are exercising it. We get > it. You are a cat abuser. ***You are deluded and a liar. So what else is new? ML > > > ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and > take [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ML Where have I lied? And to which delusions do you refer? You are just making sounds, like a noisemaker a child plays with. Nonsensical sounds, as though you think they will make you less wrong than you know you are. > > > > ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and > > take [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > plays with. Nonsensical sounds, as though you think > they will make you less wrong than you know you are. ***Go back and read your accusations. "You are a cat abuser!" is your ongoing manta about me. It's so flat out laughable and absurd that I would normally ignore your trolling bait attacks. But yet, no one ever has called me the names you have, which you throw around in your posts to others like normal everyday talk. Apparently, no one ever bothered to teach you manners. The fact is, you started it all with your vicious verbal attacks on me several days ago. You were the one who, in affect, woke up a sleeping lion. And you have gotten what you so stupidly asked for. Cause and effect. ML > "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Where have I lied? And to which delusions do you refer? > > You are just making sounds, like a noisemaker a child > > plays with. Nonsensical sounds, as though you think > > they will make you less wrong than you know you are. > > > ***Go back and read your accusations. "You are a cat abuser!" Do you like "potential cat abuser" better? You intend to breed, and that is abusive. is your > ongoing manta about me. It's so flat out laughable and absurd that I would > normally ignore your trolling bait attacks. But yet, no one ever has called [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > several days ago. You were the one who, in affect, woke up a sleeping lion. > And you have gotten what you so stupidly asked for. Cause and effect. Um. :) "Sleeping lion?" Does this mean that I caused you to mouth off like the moron that you are? Stating the same stupid things over and over in a brilliant demonstration that everything I have said about you is true? Oh, my. How that hurts. You are stupid. You are very stupid. I might clean up my language one day, but you will always be stupid. (For those of you who are literate, apologies to Winston Churchill. For the literate among you who have not heard the true story from which the above was plucked and modified, I would be happy to tell it.) :) > ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take > care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > ML And what does all this have to do with anything? We get it, you're an American, so it's your right to not do what's best for your cat, just like it's my right to keep working for cats to have a better life. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG >>> ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, >>> and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > ML You keep falling back on some half-assed belief that being an American allows you to be irresponsible. Just where does this misguided notion come from anyway? There is NO right that says "hey, I can add to the very tragic situation of overpopulation by letting my cat have kittens to displace the kittens or cats that might have been adopted if I hadn't." Oh forget it. You are to wrapped up in selfishness to even begin to understand that. > >>> ***My answer is, "of course!". This assumes that the owner(s) are loving, > >>> and very responsible and will be completely responsible for the kittens [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > kittens or cats that might have been adopted if I hadn't." Oh forget it. You > are to wrapped up in selfishness to even begin to understand that. ***Having my own freedom to do what I* deem responsible is what is falling on deaf ears. I don't understand why some others don't 'get' that very simple fact. I've never in my life followed what 'the crowd' dictates is right or wrong. I have always used my own knowledge and experience to make my decisions. Yet, some here are so adamant and self righteous that they are right and you are wrong, they leave no room for another to have her own view. Or in my case, a certain poster started this whole thing by flaming me with ugly and disgusting name 'sign offs'. No, this is not okay, nor will I tolerate it, obviously. ML > ***Having my own freedom to do what I* deem responsible is what is falling > on deaf ears. Explain how it is responsible to breed cats when so many die for lack of homes. > > ***Having my own freedom to do what I* deem responsible is what is falling > > on deaf ears. > > Explain how it is responsible to breed cats when so many die for lack of > homes. ***I am not breeding "cats". I mentioned that I might* breed one* cat, my male, and would do this just for one litter. But there would be many factors involved, should I decide to do this. ML > > Explain how it is responsible to breed cats when so many die for lack of > > homes. > > > ***I am not breeding "cats". I mentioned that I might* breed one* cat, my > male, and would do this just for one litter. But there would be many > factors involved, should I decide to do this. That you would consider it makes you a cat abuser. Period. > > > Explain how it is responsible to breed cats when so many die for lack of > > > homes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That you would consider it makes you a cat abuser. Period. ***How in the hell would that make me a cat abuser?! That's so laughable! Your starting to sound like a pre-programmed robot that's stuck with only 5 words in it's vocabulary. Like a old Saturday Night Live Coneheads skit. But then your way too young to know jack about the 70's. ML "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote > > > > That you would consider it makes you a cat abuser. Period. > > > ***How in the hell would that make me a cat abuser?! That's so laughable! > Your starting to sound like a pre-programmed robot that's stuck with only 5 > words in it's vocabulary. Like a old Saturday Night Live Coneheads skit. But > then your way too young to know jack about the 70's. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? :) > ***How in the hell would that make me a cat abuser?! That's so laughable! > Your starting to sound like a pre-programmed robot that's stuck with only > 5 > words in it's vocabulary. Like a old Saturday Night Live Coneheads skit. > But > then your way too young to know jack about the 70's. I always imagned Mary was in her 40's. But, I thought you were a guy, so I guess my Usenet imagination is not always correct. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > view. Or in my case, a certain poster started this whole thing by flaming me > with ugly and disgusting name 'sign offs'. No, this is not okay, nor will I > tolerate it, obviously. What are you going to do, moron? Keep screaming your little pointy head off? You're WRONG. Yes, you have a right to do the wrong thing. Nobody ever contested that. > > view. Or in my case, a certain poster started this whole thing by flaming > me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > head off? You're WRONG. Yes, you have a right to do the wrong thing. > Nobody ever contested that. ***You are the moron! So what part of that don't you understand!? Oh I guess it's all to high brow and civil for you to compute in your tiny, polluted brain. Try watching PBS for a change instead of Jerry Springer, dope! M.L "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote > > What are you going to do, moron? Keep screaming your little pointy > > head off? You're WRONG. Yes, you have a right to do the wrong thing. > > Nobody ever contested that. > > > ***You are the moron! So what part of that don't you understand!? Oh I guess > it's all to high brow and civil for you to compute in your tiny, polluted > brain. Try watching PBS for a change instead of Jerry Springer, dope! So, I'm taking this as a "Yes, I am going to keep screaming my little pointy head off even though I am wrong." That's all I wanted to know, you "sleeping tiger" you. lol > "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote > > What are you going to do, moron? > Keep screaming your little pointy [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > lol ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And yes, boy oh boy, has that sleeping tiger ever has been awakened! :-0 ML "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote> > So, I'm taking this as a "Yes, I am going to keep screaming my little > pointy > > head off even though I am wrong." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And yes, > boy oh boy, has that sleeping tiger ever has been awakened! :-0 Oh My God. You really are that dense. Okay, here it is for the last time, because I know people are sick of you: you can post all you want and rant your head off, but until you demonstrate how it is the right thing to do to breed your cat you are still wrong. Even if you get the last word. Even if you put four asterisks by your rants. You are wrong. Now then, I've wound up your key again, let's see your little pointy-headed self jump up and down and holler about how it is your right to do wrong and nobody will take it away from you. > ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And > yes, > boy oh boy, has that sleeping tiger ever has been awakened! :-0 Ooooh! What are you going to do? Call me names? I'm so scared! I started this thread because you were saying that Mary, Priscilla, and I were extremists and such. My goal was to show you that most of the people on this ng feel the same way. I think I've been proven right. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And > > yes, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > were extremists and such. My goal was to show you that most of the people > on this ng feel the same way. I think I've been proven right. I would say so. And I would also say that everyone reading this mess has been very tolerant not to tell all of us to shut the hell up. :) Slim breeds repetitive posts. It is like trying to teach a pit bull algebra. 8) > > > ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And > > > yes, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > has been very tolerant not to tell all of us to shut the hell up. :) Slim > breeds repetitive posts. It is like trying to teach a pit bull algebra. 8) Ah, not very effective and annoys the dog? Priscilla Signature"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever. The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal." - QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal > > > > ***Well thank goodness, you've finally got some of the truth right! And > > > > yes, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Priscilla Yep. With thanks to Mark Twain and the pig we replaced! ;) > Having my own freedom to do what I* deem responsible is what is falling > on deaf ears. What you deem responsible isn't necessarily responsible. I think everyone gets it; it seems to be you who doesn't get the flip side. > I don't understand why some others don't 'get' that very > simple fact. I've never in my life followed what 'the crowd' dictates is > right or wrong. How noble. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html I have always used my own knowledge and experience to make > my decisions. Therein lies the problem. *Your* "knowledge and experience". You're basing your opinion and beliefs on incomplete information and no practical experience in this matter. I really think you'll have a drastic change of mind and heart if you spent just *one* day going to a few a few kill shelters on execution day and watching healthy, beautiful, feeling, thinking individuals being systematically killed. When you actually see healthy, beautiful, feeling, thinking individuals being systematically killed *only* because homes couldn't be found for them, I think the thought of bringing more cats into the world - which would result in even more cats being killed, will make you as utterly sick and as angry as it makes me and a lot of other people. There's a BIG difference between hearing and reading about healthy cats being killed and actually *seeing* it happen. Why not reserve your decision and opinion until you have knowledge and experience to actually see what the consequences of your decision would be for 4-6 cats in a shelter? Phil > ***Having my own freedom to do what I* deem responsible is what is falling > on deaf ears. I don't understand why some others don't 'get' that very [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with ugly and disgusting name 'sign offs'. No, this is not okay, nor will I > tolerate it, obviously. Oh, we all know you have the right to breed your cat. To be honest, in a lot of states in this great nation, I have the right to kill my cat by shooting it, just as long as it isn't deemed to suffer too much. And someone could come here and spout off about how they're shooting feral cats and there's not a thing we could do about it. Difference is, to be honest, I think that someone shooting a cat to death in such a way as to make it quick is doing less to harm the cat population as a whole than is the person who breeds their cat. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* "Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I choose to make the decision, period. Being here in American, we have more free rights than we could dare to dream. We are spoiled. Never having to cover our faces with a cloth just because we venture out in public, or decide to go to the market. Never having to really worry just because we are simply a woman. Many woman/ people are treated on par like an animals in other countries. Degraded and devalued and even sold to a potential owner/ husband just like a cow or dog might be. This certainly happens in India and in other countries where they/ women have no real rights. Yes, I am so, so, happy to love here in American where I have rights, am protected and can make my own decisions freely. People are so spoiled here.I know this. I have traveled abroad twice already, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are a great country" Well congratulations on traveling abroad "two times already". I have traveled abroad over twenty-five times. And what I "know" is that the "breeding and selling" of women is done on exactly the same premise as the "breeding and selling" of cats or any other animal. Because the person doing it thinks that they have the "right" to do so and nobody can stop them from exercising their rights, regardless of the common good. All cats, not just yours and their progeny, have the right to a loving home. What, by trading kittens, are you doing to uphold the dignity and value of those other living things? Nothing. You're degrading and devaluing shelter cats and denying them their right to life just so you can entertain yourself selling kittens. I don't see much difference myself. > And what I "know" is that the > "breeding and selling" of women is done on exactly the same premise as > the "breeding and selling" of cats or any other animal. Because the > person doing it thinks that they have the "right" to do so and nobody > can stop them from exercising their rights, regardless of the common > good. Also because they see women (and cats) as a commodity instead of as individuals having rights and suffering. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html >***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take >care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >ML There are a tremendous number of things in America that are legal, but not ethical. It's up to us to make that discretion. Again, some of us have a social conscience and love cats as species, and we do the responsible thing. Others don't give a damn and exercise their "right" to do the wrong thing. It's a shame. Sherry "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote in message news:DiaNd.8011 > ***Don't minimize my statement. It is my right to love, cherish, and take > care of my pets until they die. It is my right to mate my pet should I > choose to make the decision, period. Of course its your right. No one is arguing that. However, do you think you should excersise that right if doing so harms or indirectly causes the death of 4 - 6 other cats or kittens? Simple question. > "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote in message news:DiaNd.8011 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > should excersise that right if doing so harms or indirectly causes the death > of 4 - 6 other cats or kittens? Simple question. **Phil, First of all, I want you to know that you have helped me tremendously in the past years here. Years ago, you gave me life saving advice re: using isoflorine for my Blue when he was going to have his teeth cleaned, and I was very worried about him being put under. Your good advice was years before* it was so well known to use gas. Now (using gas) it is very common and most recommended by all good vets. You also gave me advice about the potential dangers of using Batril, and honestly, many, many other issues that I have seeked counsel and advice for. I have a great respect for you* and your advice and a few others that regularly post here. And I still read many of your posts, when you do post, which isn't often. So I want to thank you for being a rock of good advice, advice that I have taken heed to, and advice that I will continue to do so. Now, let me just say that I have never allowed my cats to breed, ever. But please note that this is Not because I give three flips about what anyone here says that I Must and have to do. My original, 'thinking out loud' question was that I was *pondering* mating my kitten Dove* when the time came. That is All that I said, and I still don't know if I will, and probably won't, because of many factors that would be involved. But, almost immediately after my post, I was verbally clobbered/ attacked by a young + insulting, 'know it all' in this group. This not unacceptable. And I have had to let her know it, time and time and time again that it is not. But I ask you now, why in the world should I* be directly responsible for all the strays in the shelter that (other) people have neglected and abused by allowing their animal(s) to run around loose, get prenant, and spread diseases all becuase of *someone else's* extreme neglect and irresponsibilty?! What if I* chose to mate my kitten, and yet I am/was extremely responsible about the care, shots, and many, many, other responsibilities required that go along with having kittens or any animal? The backlash and general consensus here is that it is completely wrong and horrible to do this, adding on to this fury heaps of insults and verbal name-calling. I do not comprehend how my personal, responsible, and private decision would then cause 4 to 6 cats to perish (that you mentioned)? The shelter, here, has a 'no kill' policy, unless* an animal is too aggressive, and/or has behavioral traits making him/her unacceptable. That to me is common sense. ML > > "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote in message news:DiaNd.8011 > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the past years here. Years ago, you gave me life saving advice re: using > isoflorine for my Blue when he was going to have his teeth cleaned, I remember Blue! How is he? Well I hope. and I > was very worried about him being put under. Your good advice was years > before* it was so well known to use gas. Now (using gas) it is very common > and most recommended by all good vets. I went through the same thing trying to convince vets and people to feed cats canned food about 5 years ago, and diabetic cats, kitten food. I was always getting into wars... You also gave me advice about the > potential dangers of using Batril, and honestly, many, many other issues > that I have seeked counsel and advice for. I have a great respect for you* > and your advice and a few others that regularly post here. And I still read > many of your posts, when you do post, which isn't often. So I want to thank > you for being a rock of good advice, advice that I have taken heed to, and > advice that I will continue to do so. I don't know what to say - other than thanks and it makes me very happy to know I've helpped a cat and their friend. > Now, let me just say that I have never allowed my cats to breed, ever. But > please note that this is Not because I give three flips about what anyone [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > insulting, 'know it all' in this group. This not unacceptable. And I have > had to let her know it, time and time and time again that it is not. I don't think anyone in this group is better known than me for flame-broiling people who I thought mistreated a cat or harmed the feline species. I'm not making excuses for myself or anyone else, but certain issues for me and some others - especially those who work with shelters - are like being dragged down a highway of broken glass naked and then through a lake of salt water. That's actually an understatement for how I feel about breeding. > But I ask you now, why in the world should I* be directly responsible for > all the strays in the shelter that (other) people have neglected and abused [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > extremely responsible about the care, shots, and many, many, other > responsibilities required that go along with having kittens or any animal? Because for every home that a person finds for the cats they brought into the world, is one less home for a shelter cat that will probably be killed. All us may not be responsible for creating the overpopulation and killing problem - but as cat lovers who *truly* love the feline *species* - not just our own cats, we're obligated to protect them and try as hard as we can to prevent any harm from coming to them. Breeding cats *hurts* the feline *species* because it reduces the number of homes for cats in shelters which translates into more cats being killed due to the lack of homes. See the post I wrote to you before I read this one. > The backlash and general consensus here is that it is completely wrong and > horrible to do this, adding on to this fury heaps of insults and verbal > name-calling. I do not comprehend how my personal, responsible, and private > decision would then cause 4 to 6 cats to perish (that you mentioned)? The > shelter, here, has a 'no kill' policy, unless* an animal is too aggressive, > and/or has behavioral traits making him/her unacceptable. That to me is > common sense. Not to me. I can't tell you how many "unacceptables" I've placed. It takes a lot of time and effort working with these cats. In my experience, it wasn't the cats who had behavioral problems - they were simply reacting to a stressfull environment or neurotic owner or dysfunctional family who didn't even realise they were the cause of the cats' behavior. Most "unadoptables" become *perfect* cats in a single-cat or very low stress household. I don't believe in "unacceptable" - there's no such cat. No-kill shelters don't have unlimited space and unlimited resources. When they reach the maximum capacity of cats that they can properly care for, there's no more room and resources for additional cats; they must be turned away. Where do those cats go? Think it over. I'm sure you'll do the best thing for the feline species - that I know you love. Give Blue a scratch behind the ear for me! Phil > ML >> But I ask you now, why in the world should I* be directly responsible >> for all the strays in the shelter that (other) people have neglected [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > number of homes for cats in shelters which translates into more cats > being killed due to the lack of homes. To put it another way ... it's not fair. 100% agreed, it's not fair that people have allowed their cats to run rampant and because of this, there is a cat overpopulation problem that means that kittens must die. And it's unfair that because there are too many kittens out there, in order for yours to live, others must perish. Unfortunately, as my dad always tells me and I'm sure yours has to you, life's not fair. And the only reason to be responsible is because you know it's the right thing to do. Responsibility isn't about doing the right thing when it's easy; it's about doing the right thing when it's hard. Is it your fault that kittens are being euthanized by the truck load? No. Can you do something, a small thing, to stem that tide? Yes. And if every person who thought that their cat was too wonderful not to breed chose instead to neuter and to adopt, well, a lot fewer kittens would die every year. I think I know part of the answer to Phil's question about where animals go when the no-kill shelters are full. You see, my local shelter is not no-kill, which amazed me. They explained why, though. Because they do not claim to be no-kill, they accept *all* animals. After a day of kenneling to calm them, they are given a thorough physical and temperament exam. Those who have correctable problems are kept; those who have uncorrectable, debilitating problems (vicious, or physical illnesses that will cause them great suffering) are euthanized. They have a fairly extensive document enumerating how they judge animals for this. No-kill shelters maintain their status by refusing a lot of pets outright. See, they don't accept 'em, so they don't have to kill them. But what do you do when the no-kill shelter refuses the animal? I suppose you either take it to a kill shelter, where it may during high season be euthanized that same day, or you let it out on the side of the road somewhere, and it gets run over or shot or eaten by a mountain lion or ... Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* (snipped from Monique's response) > No-kill shelters maintain their status by refusing a lot of pets outright. > See, they don't accept 'em, so they don't have to kill them. But what do you > do when the no-kill shelter refuses the animal? I suppose you either take it > to a kill shelter, where it may during high season be euthanized that same > day, or you let it out on the side of the road somewhere, and it gets run over > or shot or eaten by a mountain lion or ... Monique, you got that right! And what do "no-kills" do when they run out of shelter room (which is almost immediately)? Some of them turn into warehouses of the nearly-adoptable, some simply send the long-terms down the alley to the local shelter (fondly known as the "kill" shelter), some quietly euthanize. I know of a "no-kill" a few years ago that was busted for animal cruelty when they were warehousing right out into the alley (literally). They then turned to off-loading to the nearby animal shelter. My source didn't want the news to get out because she feared losing donations. The greatest difference between the non-profit/private "no-kills" and the public-funded (and generally under-funded) "kill" shelters is that the latter must accept at least the animals in their jursdiction (city or county). That means they have to accept those animals turned away by the "no-kills." I would love to see some comparative studies on intake/adoption numbers for private and public shelters. Does anyone know of any? Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats > Monique, you got that right! And what do "no-kills" do when they run out of > shelter room (which is almost immediately)? Some of them turn into [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My source didn't want the news to get out because she feared losing > donations. This is something I worried about when I brought Eros to a local shelter. They accept all animals, but they will euthanize those with serious enough health or behavioral problems. Anyway, as I understand it they and other local shelters move animals about as necessary; when one is full, they send the animal to another shelter. I worried that I could therefore bring Eros to a shelter that wouldn't euthanize him, only to have him end up at a shelter that would because of space considerations. I visited him until he was adopted, both to comfort him and to be sure he was still at the shelter I'd picked (and paid for). Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > Monique, you got that right! And what do "no-kills" do when they run out > of shelter room (which is almost immediately)? Some of them turn into [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > shelter. My source didn't want the news to get out because she feared > losing donations. You know what our shelter does? Volunteers take home cats. We do sometimes have to make people wait a week or so to bring their cat in, and if they absolutely can't wait, then yes, they do have to go to the municipal shelter. However, our priority is the animal control strays from the town, next in line, citizen strays. I would say most people do wait, because they want to turn the cat over to us. We do turn down cats sometimes when it is not in the best interest of the cat to come to the shelter. For example, someone contacted us about a 14 year old cat that she inherited from her mother. This cat had never been around other cats, and was not doing well with her cats. The cat coordinator was away, so I had to make the decision. I said no, because this cat would have been miserable in the shelter, and would probably just sit for months. I gave her tips on intergrating, and said if she can't do it, it would be best for her to try to adopt her out herself. Disclaimer: our shelter is not technically "no-kill", we are limited admission and advertise as such. We have put down (and still do, depending on circumstances, FeLV+ and FIV+). We never put down healthy animals for space. We will put down a sick cat, such as one in kidney failure or with cancer. The shelter is all-volunteer, and we have a great network of volunteers who often hospice foster ill or elderly cats. I am currently fostering a kitten with a liver shunt. We pride ourselves on taking a chance on other animals who would have been put down immediately at other shelters. And yes, some of us do get sh*t from some of the higher-ups for taking in special needs cats and dogs, because they are not as adoptable, are "taking up space" and making our numbers look bad. > The greatest difference between the non-profit/private "no-kills" and the > public-funded (and generally under-funded) "kill" shelters is that the > latter must accept at least the animals in their jursdiction (city or > county). That means they have to accept those animals turned away by the > "no-kills." This is true, and I am not knocking open admission shelters. They have to take whatever walks through their door. I just don't think limited admission shelters need to be labeled as bad. > I would love to see some comparative studies on intake/adoption numbers > for private and public shelters. Does anyone know of any? I would too. However, publicly funded shelters have paid employees, and a larger adoption staff, and more time to be open and do adoptions. We went from having only one Open House a month, to having hours one evening and every Saturday a week. This is all staffed by volunteeers. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > You know what our shelter does? Volunteers take home cats. [snip] It's great that your shelter volunteers do so much and that you have thus far been able to handle the load, but what would happen if you just couldn't? If every volunteer had so many foster cats that they just couldn't take any more, and the facilities were so crowded that to keep any more would be abusive to all of them? There's a breaking point somewhere. There are simply too many homeless animals. Many (most?) will die. I don't blame shelters that euthanize or that limit the number or type of animals they accept. They all do their part to at least try to reduce the massive overpopulation problem, and I'd rather see a cat or dog humanely euthanized than have it starve to death or turned to a pulp on the road. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > It's great that your shelter volunteers do so much and that you have thus > far [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to > all of them? I'm sure if were absolutely full, full, full, we would have to refer someone to a municipal shelter. Like I said before, most of the time when this happens, we ask people to wait until we have a spot. We do refer to other shelters if these people can't wait. Some are open admission, some are not. If it's something like allergies or moving in a few months, they usually do. Yes, we do get the jackasses who say "I'm moving this weekend, take my cat". When it comes to animal control strays, if we are full, they do have to wait in the ACO kennel until we have a spot. Sometimes that's up to a week, but it's better than being out on the street. > There's a breaking point somewhere. There are simply too many homeless > animals. Many (most?) will die. I don't blame shelters that euthanize or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > turned to > a pulp on the road. Yes, me too. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > Yes, we do get the jackasses who say "I'm moving this weekend, take my cat". This NEVER ceases to amaze me. I realize that people don't always have 100% control of their life circumstances, but the amount of pets that are given up because people are "moving" and the place wont take dogs/cats is MIND-BLOWING to me. I mean, would someone just give up their child because it was inconvenient?!??!!! When I stop at Petsmart for food or supplies, i always look in the kitty room to say hi and wave and stick my fingers under the door. Sometimes the door is open and I walk in and then i can read the info on the cages. The amount of "not wanted" reasons just makes me want to cry. WHY THE HELL DID YOU GET A PET IF YOU DIDN'T WANT IT!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ugh. i realize i am preaching to the choir, pam > > Yes, we do get the jackasses who say "I'm moving this weekend, take my cat". > > This NEVER ceases to amaze me. I realize that people don't always have > 100% control of their life circumstances, but the amount of pets that > are given up because people are "moving" and the place wont take > dogs/cats is MIND-BLOWING to me/// You can persuade *ANY* landlord to take pets in a no-pet place if you have the right attitude, good references and a fat deposit. Last year, I was living in Edinburgh, and I managed to persuade a rabid "Anti-pet" landlord to allow a hyperactive young collie dog X and 3 cats to live in my apartment. I think it helped that he felt he could have access at any time, and I had good vet references and my pets came with good references. I have no truck with people who give up their pets because they are moving to a place that doesn't allow them. Helen M >>> Yes, we do get the jackasses who say "I'm moving this weekend, take my cat". >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Helen M As long as it is not a corporate owned place (and even some of them you can, yes, with the offer of a BIG non refundable deposit which is what I did). US corporate owned apt. complexes are really tough. However, I just scratched those off my list). > As long as it is not a corporate owned place (and even some of them you can, > yes, with the offer of a BIG non refundable deposit which is what I did). US > corporate owned apt. complexes are reall |
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