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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / February 2005OMH Wellness closes last company owned plant
SOURCE: Lowell Sun, 1/29/05 Pet-food firm company to close Lowell plant After more than four decades in Lowell, the Old Mother Hubbard plant will stop producing its pet food by June, leaving 100 workers without jobs. The family-owned company has struggled to make the operation more efficient, but the Rogers Street plant, a former knitting factory, made this difficult and offered little manufacturing flexibility, Chief Executive Officer James Scott Jr. said. "It was just an old building," Scott said after yesterday's announcement. "We tried pretty hard to make it work, and we just couldn't. It was a sad day." Scott said he plans to offer all the help he can to employees, some of whom he has known for more than 25 years. "I was so impressed with the way they received (the news)," he said. The announcement brought tears and hugs, and Scott praised his employees for their skills in manufacturing in an outdated setting. The company was founded in Gloucester in 1926 by the A. Hubbard and Sons Bakery. In 1961, the company was purchased by Scott's father, James Sr., who moved it to Tanner Street in Lowell. In 1974, the operation was moved to its current site, the former Cooper Knitting building at the corner of Rogers and Perry streets. Scott took over the company from his father more than 10 years ago. The 65,000-square-foot Rogers Street plant worked well as a knitting factory, but not so well for manufacturing pet food, Scott said yesterday. The three-story brick building allowed little flexibility and wasn't very efficient, he said. The company's administrative offices will remain on Mill Road in Chelmsford. Scott would not say where other manufacturing plants are, but did say the company had "strategic partnerships" that manufacture its products. The company makes pet food for dogs and cats under the Old Mother Hubbard and Wellness brand names. More than 45 percent of its business is on the West Coast, Scott said. The company employs 230 people overall. The 100 manufacturers losing their jobs by June will have severance packages and extended benefits, and access to career counseling and job assistance set up in offices at the plant, Scott said. "We're very connected with our people and we'll do the right thing," he said. During the 1980s, neighbors complained of the smell wafting from the Rogers Street plant. The company made changes to emissions system to minimize the odor. A year ago tomorrow, the company announced a partnership with a private-equity firm and consultant Catterton Partners, which it hoped would boost growth of the Old Mother Hubbard and Wellness brands. Since July, the company has hired sales managers to handle territories in California, New Jersey, northern New England, and Long Island, N.Y. Over the past few years it has doubled the number of independent retailers it serves, Scott said, but at the same time reliance on the Lowell plant has been reduced until "the manufacturing side was the smaller piece of the business." The Gloucester bakery where the company was founded began making hard-tack sea biscuits that a sailor threw to his dog, which "happily gobbled it up," according to company lore. Today, the company bakes all of its dry pet food, which makes it more nutritious and digestible and requires no added fat to make it taste better, the company says. > SOURCE: Lowell Sun, 1/29/05 > > Pet-food firm company to close Lowell plant > > After more than four decades in Lowell, the Old Mother Hubbard plant will > stop producing its pet food by June, leaving 100 workers without jobs. Maybe this is where the earlier rumor about OMH being sold originated. I wonder what this means for the quality of the food ... although it sounds like this was only one of their plants, so maybe nothing. And of course, I do hope the workers find new jobs quickly.  Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* >> SOURCE: Lowell Sun, 1/29/05 >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >And of course, I do hope the workers find new jobs quickly. And, one more alternative to the Evil Empire on the Hill might be gone as well. Sad. eq Monique, It illustrates that they no longer own any production facilities at all, they contract out to third party manufacturers to make their foods. "The company's administrative offices will remain on Mill Road in Chelmsford. Scott would not say where other manufacturing plants are, but did say the company had "strategic partnerships" that manufacture its products." > Monique, It illustrates that they no longer own any production facilities at > all, they contract out to third party manufacturers to make their foods. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but did say the company had "strategic partnerships" that manufacture its > products." It doesn't illustrate it, it flat-out says it. If you're going to respond to me, I do wish you'd include the text to which you're responding. However, they were already subcontracting for all but one of their plants ... so this doesn't necessarily have implications for the quality of their food. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* >> Monique, It illustrates that they no longer own any production facilities at >> all, they contract out to third party manufacturers to make their foods. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >However, they were already subcontracting for all but one of their plants ... >so this doesn't necessarily have implications for the quality of their food. I'm not sure I trust them as much though. There was a thread on here back in December about a rumor of them being bought out. I emailed them asking if this were true. This was their response: >Thank you for contacting Old Mother Hubbard. Absolutely not! We have >experienced tremendous growth over the past few years, and sought a partner >with additional resources to fuel this growth and to fulfill our mission of >providing uncompromising nutrition for pets, while remaining family owned. > >Customer Service > I'm not sure I trust them as much though. There was a thread on here back in > December about a rumor of them being bought out. I emailed them asking if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Customer Service I remember that. But they *weren't* bought out ... so it's not like what they said was misleading or inaccurate. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* >From: "Monique Y. Mudama" spam@bounceswoosh.org >> I'm not sure I trust them as much though. There was a thread on here back >in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >they >said was misleading or inaccurate. It sounds to me like the popularity of Wellness food has grown beyond what they had planned for, and they are just trying to meet production. I don't think that necessarily means a bad thing. In fact, it could even mean improvement, who knows. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > It sounds to me like the popularity of Wellness food has grown beyond what > they had planned for, and they are just trying to meet production. I don't > think that necessarily means a bad thing. In fact, it could even mean > improvement, who knows. Then again, I could be completely wrong. I agree. We'll just have to watch for signs that the food is changing, just as we always are. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > It sounds to me like the popularity of Wellness food has grown beyond what they > had planned for, and they are just trying to meet production. I don't think [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm You usually are! Wrong, that is! LOL Why are they so tight-lipped about their "other" manufacturing plants?? It appears as if they have something to hide? I wonder if you are referencing the enterococcus faecium in their foods when you mention an "improvement"? ;) > >> Monique, It illustrates that they no longer own any production facilities at > >> all, they contract out to third party manufacturers to make their foods. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> > >> but did say the company had "strategic partnerships" that ma?nufacture its > >> products." > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > >Customer Service Your suspicions are well justified. The can of Wellness I'm looking right now says "Product of Canada". Also, I don't see how a third party mfger can adhere to fixed-formulas while the price of raw materials constantly flucuates, and still manufacture the diets for the amount they bid on the contract. ...unless they speculated on a whole lotta futures contracts for the entire length of their contract! Also, since Wellness's marketing gimmick states only "human grade" ingredients are used in their diets, the third party pet food mfger. must implement stringent quality control measures and the isolation of raw materials and batch processes to avoid "contamination" with "pet-grade ingredients" - effectively a establishing seperate storage and manufacturing operations. I think it's time to send a can of Wellness to Cornell's N.E.A.S. for a proximate analysis including a separate Fats and Preservatives Analysis of Wellness's dry foods - not that I have a problem with synthetic antioxidants in the minute levels used in pet foods - I just doubt a generic or third party pet food manufacturer could buy animal fats that aren't preserved with synthetic antioxidants and still manufacture the foods for the contract bid. Since there are several Wellness customers in this group, why not take up a collection to pay for the analyses? The Proximate Analyses (Moistiure, Protein, Fat, Fiber, Ash) costs $39.50, and the Fats and Preservatives Analysis for Ethoxyquin-$38, BHT-$65, BHT-$65. For another $15, we can get a mineral analysis for phosphorus. Unless no one wants to really know..... Here're the details and fees: http://www.diaglab.vet.cornell.edu/neas/service/ I think we can trust Cornell! Nominate a treasurer and count me in for the first $20. Phil > I think it's time to send a can of Wellness to Cornell's N.E.A.S. for a > proximate analysis including a separate Fats and Preservatives Analysis of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with synthetic antioxidants and still manufacture the foods for the contract > bid. Maybe in 6 months or so, when the plant has actually been transitioned. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > I think it's time to send a can of Wellness to Cornell's N.E.A.S. for a > > proximate analysis including a separate Fats and Preservatives Analysis of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Maybe in 6 months or so, when the plant has actually been transitioned. As I said, Wellness sold in New Jersey is *already* manufactured by a third party Canadian mfger. and *not* OMH. I assume the same applies to other areas as well. Check your cans. Look for "Product of Canada". Phil > As I said, Wellness sold in New Jersey is *already* manufactured by a third > party Canadian mfger. and *not* OMH. I assume the same applies to other > areas as well. Check your cans. Look for "Product of Canada". I just checked my cans of Wellness, which I got from PetFoodDirect in PA. They're also made in Canada. I never gave it much thought, but I know I've been seeing that on Wellness for quite a while, including cans I bought locally in NYC. -- Liz > > As I said, Wellness sold in New Jersey is *already* manufactured by a > third [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been seeing that on Wellness for quite a while, including cans I bought > locally in NYC. I noticed some sizes and flavors are made in the USA and others are made in Canada. I also saw large cans of Chicken made in Canada, and the 5.5 oz cans of chicken were made in the USA. I didn't have time to check all the flavors and sizes. I think having several different plants in different locations - even in different countries - producing the same flavors or even the same products -can result in *significant* variations in quality and nutrition from batch to batch. It probably wouldn't be so bad if each plant produced specific flavors, but I really don't like the idea of various plants owned by different companies producing the same flavor. Actually, I don't like the idea of differently owned and operated plants producing a product line for a contracting company because of the likihood of variations from product to product. But that's me. Phil I am getting sick and tired of Phil, Steve, and Gaubster ganging up on Wellness with no hard facts - just suspicions. These three are Hills junkies and will do anything to undermine the success of another good company. Hills probably make a good product but SO DOES WELLNESS and many other companies. My cats are eating the Canadian Wellness with no complaints and it smells the same as it always had - almost good enough to eat! Give it a rest. ---MIKE--- >I am getting sick and tired of Phil, Steve, and Gaubster ganging up on >Wellness with no hard facts - just suspicions. These three are Hills [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ---MIKE--- Phil isn't a "Hill's Junkie". In fact, I've seen him question Steve Crane on here concerning changes in Hill's formulations. eq >I am getting sick and tired of Phil, Steve, and Gaubster ganging up on >Wellness with no hard facts - just suspicions. These three are Hills [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ---MIKE--- You now have a chance to put your money where your mouth is and join those of us who want to get it analyzed. Why not chip in and lets settle this once and all. -mhd On Fri 04 Feb 2005 04:33:52p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:seq701pr93gqdiap8h1d93prn56q2mj8mm@4ax.com): >>I am getting sick and tired of Phil, Steve, and Gaubster ganging >>up on Wellness with no hard facts - just suspicions. These [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -mhd I want to see the canned turkey variety tested, and also one of the meat and fish/seafood canned food. SignatureCheryl Mike, I don't know that facts enter into the equation here very much. Emotional decisions / opinions are substantially more common and appreciated it would seem. Facts are that many of OMH foods contain excess levels of calcium and phosphorus for an adult cat. That's common knowledge but no one seems to get too excited about "facts". Fact is the company no longer immediately controls the production process - that's a "fact" as well. What the effects of that "fact" may have on the food are impossible to predict. These are both "facts" but who cares about that anyway huh?????? > Mike, > I don't know that facts enter into the equation here very much. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the food are impossible to predict. These are both "facts" but who > cares about that anyway huh?????? I sincerly hope Ol' Roy, Menu Foods or Diamond are not among OMH "strategic partnerships". Since the Chicken and the Turkey Formulas are a part of my cats' rotating diet program, I don't feel comfortable feeding those diets until I know who the manufacturers are. As insider in the pet food industry, Steve, how about finding out who is manufacturing these diets? Phil >> Mike, >> I don't know that facts enter into the equation here very much. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Phil Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed their "exploding cruise control" problem. eq >From: ">equalizer <> >>> Mike, >>> I don't know that facts enter into the equation here very much. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >eq LOL! No kidding! ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >>Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much >>as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >LOL! No kidding! Lauren, you're a fountain of misinformation....you shouldn't laugh! At least Steve hasn't been caught making up lies; like you have in the past! >Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much >as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed >their "exploding cruise control" problem. But you trust OMH to tell you the truth? Sounds a personal vendetta. -mhd >>Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much >>as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >-mhd I guess you missed the post a few posts back where I said: >I'm not sure I trust them as much though. There was a thread on here >back in December about a rumor of them being bought out. I emailed them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Customer Service Or else you're deliberately trying to put a spin on what I said. You must have a personal vendetta...... eq >From: hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com >>Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much >>as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed >>their "exploding cruise control" problem. > >But you trust OMH to tell you the truth? Sounds a personal vendetta. Huh? Where did EQ say they trusted OMH? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Huh? Where did EQ say they trusted OMH? Swept under the rug, I guess.......... eq >________ >See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe >Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html >http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html >Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >> Mike, > >> I don't know that facts enter into the equation here very much. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed > their "exploding cruise control" problem. Naa, Eq, I'd trust Steve's report. A few people here attack Steve simply because he works for Hill's and because they can't attack most of his information - which they don't like since it makes their choices of foods look bad - especially because most of the other foods contain higher phosphorus levels than Hill's. My primary concerns are phosphorus, potassium and acidification. I don't particularly care who makes the food with the levels I'm looking for. My loyalty is to my *cats* - its their best interest I'm looking out for - not some petfood manufacturer's bottom line or their seductive advertising gimmick. I used to recommend Nutro because the food met my requirements. As soon as Nutro stopped meeting my requirements, I dumped them and no longer recommended the foods. The same principal applied to Iams; I dumped Iams when The Iams Company sold the company to P&G who changed the formulas and went off fixed formulas and started buying their raw materials from the lowest bidders. You can bet the ranch I'll dump Hill's - in a heartbeat - as well if and when they no longer meet the nutrient levels I want. After reading Osborne's and Polzin's chapter on CRF in the brand new 6th ed. of Ettinger's, I'm even more concerned about phosphorus. Waiting for hyperphosphatemia to develop before restricting phosphorus - which has been the thinking in the past - is a recipe for disaster: "However, because phosphorus retention and hyperparathyroidism may occur before serum phosphorus concentrations exceed normal limits, and because fasting serum phosphorus concentrations may not accurately reflect overall phosphorus balance, phosphorus restriction may be indicated before the onset of overt lyperphosphatemia." "In cats, dietary phosphorus restriction has been shown to limit renal mineralization." From Osborne in Ettinger's 5 th edition: "Hyperphosphatemia does not appear to induce clinical signs directly. However, hyperparathyroidism and soft tissue calcification may contribute to morbidity and mortality in CRF " "Species-related differences in renal acid excretion aside, it is likely that the high incidence of uremic acidosis in cats is related, at least in part, to the acidifying nature of many cat foods" "Studies of the effects of dietary acidification in cats have revealed that chronic metabolic acidosis can cause negative calcium balance and bone demineralization or negative potassium balance, which may in turn promote hypokalemia, renal dysfunction, and taurine depletion ". Buffington on FLUTD in Slatter's 2nd ed. "Additional concerns about chronic acidification are its potentially detrimental effects on renal function and bone development. Dietary potassium content also may be important because chronic metabolic acidosis can cause potassium depletion which can contribute to renal dysfunction." "Feeding a diet that has marginal amounts of potassium and that also contains excessive acidifying chemicals (e.g., dl methionine) may cause chronic metabolic acidosis and depletion of body potassium stores. Potassium depletion and hypokalemia may lead to renal dysfunction characterized by chronic tubulointerstitial nephritis and increased urinary fractional excretion of potassium, further aggravating potassium depletion." I don't know about anyone else, but the above sure scares the crap outta me - and I don't scare easily. I think several people here need to seriously reevaluate their priorities. Phil <snip> > I used to recommend Nutro because the food met my requirements. As soon as > Nutro stopped meeting my requirements, I dumped them and no longer > recommended the foods. <snip> > Phil Hi Phil, I was wondering what happened to Nutro for you to no longer recommend them. Also, what food(s) do you recommend? Any others besides Hills, and possibly Wellness? Thanks, Justin > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I was wondering what happened to Nutro for you to no longer recommend them. Hi Justin, The calcium and phosphorus levels of many of Nutro's diets steadily increased over a few years. Aside from the potentially detrimental effects, increased levels of P & Ca usually indicates a poor quality meat source - i.e., a lot of bone and connective tissue. Also, for years Nutro used fixed formulas to compound their diets - which means the quantity and quality of ingredients and suppliers varied very little from batch to batch. Nutro was able to publish detailed proximate analyses of all their diets because the nutrient levels of the ingredients didn't vary very much from batch to batch. A few years ago Nutro abandoned fixed formulas and adopted "least cost formulation" to compound their diets. This means that the quality and quantity of the ingredients fluctuate with market prices and that the raw materials are purchased from various and changing and sources. Using least cost formulation can (and does) result in final diets that vary in nutrient levels by more 100% from the original diet that was analyzed. Since the quality of the ingredients are constantly changing, Nutro would have to conduct expensive analyses and feeding trials for every diet for each new batch of diets to continue publishing proximate analyses for their foods. This is why Nutro stopped animal feeding trials and publishing proximate analyses - which leaves us without a clue of the actual nutrient levels in their foods. The "Guaranteed Analyses" on the label is more harmful than helpful because it leads people to think the "guaranteed" values are the actual nutrient levels in the food - which they are not. "Not less than 1%" could mean 50%! And "not more than 1%" could mean 0.00001%. Those are extremes, but they give you an example of much the actual nutrient levels can vary from the values printed on the label. All Nutro has to do now to meet AAFCO guidlines is use a *similar* generic formula that meets AAFCO guidelines even though the actual ingredients may not contain the same or similar nutrient levels. Look at the label, you'll see "Nutro was formulated......" rather than "Animal Feeding trials......". > Also, what food(s) do you recommend? Any others besides Hills, and > possibly Wellness? I'm impressed with some of Wysong's diets - although some need to be supplemented. If my cats' give the paws up, I'll probably give Wysong a shot. I'm really getting tired of playing the food game. After this one, my next move will be making my cats' food myself.... or start raising mice! ;-) hth, Phil > Thanks, > > Justin > The "Guaranteed Analyses" on the label is more harmful than helpful because > it leads people to think the "guaranteed" values are the actual nutrient > levels in the food - which they are not. "Not less than 1%" could mean 50%! > And "not more than 1%" could mean 0.00001%. Those are extremes, but they > give you an example of much the actual nutrient levels can vary from the > values printed on the label. Yes, this bothers me. It reminds me of something I'd noticed that Andy Rooney mentioned -- things like, "This rug may contain inflammable fibers" or "May contain natural and manmade materials." MAY CONTAIN? As Andy said, they made it; don't they know what it contains? How hard can it be? Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > > The "Guaranteed Analyses" on the label is more harmful than helpful because > > it leads people to think the "guaranteed" values are the actual nutrient [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Andy said, they made it; don't they know what it contains? How hard can > it be? I *really*, *really* wish petfood mfgers would express the nutrient content of their diets on a *caloric* basis. This is the most accurate method - its even more accurate than a dry matter basis or as feed basis because how much of a nutrient the cat actually gets depends on how much she eats. For example 10% protein "As Fed" or 45% protein "Dry Matter Basis" doesn't tell you how much of the nutrient the cat is actually consuming - without going into time consumming and complicated calculations. Whereas if the nutrients were expressed as "Protein: 10 grams/100 kcal" you'd know almost exactly how much protein your cat was deriving from the diet. e.g., An adult, neutered, moderately active, 4 kg cat's daily energy requirement is about 45 kcal/kg/day or 180 kcal/day. With a food that contains 10 grams protein/100 kcals, you'll know instantly that your cat will derive 18 grams of protein from the diet when her energy needs are met. This formula works with high-fat, low-fat, nutrient-dense, enrergy-dense, reduced mineral, etc. - any type of diet. This method is particulary useful when you need to restrict or increase a nutrient (e.g., phosphorus) because you'll know almost exactly how much of the nutrient she's actually consuming. There are diets that say they contain 50% protein or 20 grams of protein, but on a caloric basis, those 20 grams could be per 240 kcals. So a cat with a DER of 180 kcals will actually consume *less* protein than on the diet with 45% protein or 10 grams/100 kcal. Nutro and Hill's were the only mfgers. that expressed nutrients on a caloric basis - now only Hill's does. To be sure, I'm not crazy about Hill's ingredients, but I absolutely love their nutrient levels - which is really what's important - and the method that they are expressed. So until other mfgers. start using a method of expressing nutrients that we can understand without taking a computer shopping with us, we'll just have to keep playing their numbers game. Phil > > Hi Justin, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > increased levels of P & Ca usually indicates a poor quality meat source - > i.e., a lot of bone and connective tissue. Hmmm. Thinking of Mingy's struvite crystals.......... > Also, for years Nutro used fixed formulas to compound their diets - which > means the quantity and quality of ingredients and suppliers varied very [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > supplemented. If my cats' give the paws up, I'll probably give Wysong a > shot. I am (still) seguing Mingy into Wysong's Uretic formula. BTW, are you speaking of their canned food? The ones I see here are for cats and dogs, the meats with "jus". Since these are not formulated specifically for cats, would their use necessitate the addition of "vities"? > I'm really getting tired of playing the food game. After this one, my next > move will be making my cats' food myself.... or start raising mice! ;-) > > hth, > > Phil Really! I read mice are the perfect pH for cats............. SignatureJean B. > > I'm impressed with some of Wysong's diets - although some need to be > > supplemented. If my cats' give the paws up, I'll probably give Wysong a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > formulated specifically for cats, would their use necessitate the > addition of "vities"? If the Chicken Au Jus is fed alone, it must be supplemented with "Call of the Wild" supplement (colorful name...). or fed with Vitality or Geriatric Dry. I'm not crazy about that idea because if the cat doesn't eat enough of the dry, she might not be getting proper nutrition. The Chicken Gourmet, and the Liver Gourmet can be fed alone. > > I'm really getting tired of playing the food game. After this one, my next > > move will be making my cats' food myself.... or start raising mice! ;-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Really! I read mice are the perfect pH for cats............. Its not the pH of the mice alone - its mostly from eating practically all meat. Meat alone acidifies urine whereas plant materials (except corn gluten meal) alkalinizes it. In nature, cats eat ad libutum - 8-12 mice-meals a day depending on the sizes of the mice and the DER of the cat - and I don't see ferals dying from acute renal failure caused by urinary tract obstructions. Phil. >From: "Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com >I'm impressed with some of Wysong's diets - although some need to be >supplemented. If my cats' give the paws up, I'll probably give Wysong a >shot. This is a bit surprising, but I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart, Phil. Wysong is a good food but you're right, some do need to be supplemented. It's important if someone is going to feed Wysong, that they learn the Wysong methods of feeding their foods. >I'm really getting tired of playing the food game. After this one, my next >move will be making my cats' food myself.... or start raising mice! ;-) That's one of the main reasons I feed my cats a homemade diet. I know what's going in it and don't have to depend on a pet food company. As for mice, there is always Mice on Ice, lol Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > This is a bit surprising, but I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart, No change of heart. Nutrient levels have always been my first priority. Wysong's happens to meet my requirements. My loyalty is to my cats - not any petfood maker. > I don't know about anyone else, but the above sure scares the crap outta > me - and I don't scare easily. I think several people here need to > seriously reevaluate their priorities. Phil, What are you now feeding your cats? K. > What are you now feeding your cats? I'm rotating their diets - The current cycle is Hill's Turkey, Wellness Chicken, California Natural Chicken, Evolve Chicken, but no more - phos. too high (so is Cal Nat). I'll be introducing Wysong Chicken Gourmet into their diet this week and might look into Chicken Au Jus. I'll see how it goes. Phil <SNIP> >> Sorry Phil, but I'd trust Steve's report on that subject about as much >> as I'd trust a GM or Chrysler spin doctor to tell me if Ford has fixed [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >went off fixed formulas and started buying their raw materials from the >lowest bidders. I know you used to recommend Nutro's, it was one of the reasons I used it. In fact, your posting on here about their manufacturing change coincided quite well with one of my cats blocking. I dropped Nutro pretty quick. I also remember the *cha - ching* in the vet's eyes as she told me he'd be on Hill's prescription food for the rest of his life. I didn't go with the advice, that was 4 years ago, and he's doing fine. Strangely, after that incident, the office (I stopped using them when I moved) quietly shifted that vet out of the loop and assigned me another one. Not implicating anything, just stating what happened. >You can bet the ranch I'll dump Hill's - in a heartbeat - as well if and >when they no longer meet the nutrient levels I want. I believe you 100% in this statement, which is why I am going to give Wysong a look. >After reading Osborne's and Polzin's chapter on CRF in the brand new 6th ed. >of Ettinger's, I'm even more concerned about phosphorus. Waiting for [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >Phil > >I used to recommend Nutro because the food met my requirements. As soon as > >Nutro stopped meeting my requirements, I dumped them and no longer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > coincided quite well with one of my cats blocking. I dropped Nutro > pretty quick. Actually, my cats made me look for changes in the formulations when they started just nibbling instead of finishing off their portions like they usually did. I also remember the *cha - ching* in the vet's eyes as she > told me he'd be on Hill's prescription food for the rest of his life. I > didn't go with the advice, that was 4 years ago, and he's doing fine. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You can bet the ranch I'll dump Hill's - in a heartbeat - as well if and > >when they no longer meet the nutrient levels I want. > I believe you 100% in this statement, which is why I am going to give > Wysong a look. The nutrient levels in Wysong, especially phosphorus and potassium are excellent! I worry about phosphorus, potassium, and acidification because the major problem with *all* the kidney studies in cats is that *none* of them tracked the cats from birth. Most of the kidney studies were done on cats with *induced* renal failure or surgical reduction of the kidneys in a realitively short period of time - which doesn't produce the same morphologic changes as those in a naturally occuring disease over several years. The average age of diagnosis in cats with CRF is 9 years - but diagnosis cannot be made by routine tests until 2/3 or 3/4 of kidney function has already been lost. This means CRF could begin as early as early *4-6* years in some cats! This is why *prospective* studies need to be done in cats and track *naturally occuring* CRF to try to find what causes it. Can't prevent it until they know what causes it!. It would take years and truckload of money - but it would be time and money well spent - sure as sh.t better than spending it on cutting 3/4 of cats' kidneys out and seeing what happens! Phil > >After reading Osborne's and Polzin's chapter on CRF in the brand new 6th ed. > >of Ettinger's, I'm even more concerned about phosphorus. Waiting for [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > >Phil > The nutrient levels in Wysong, especially phosphorus and potassium are > excellent! I worry about phosphorus, potassium, and acidification because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > morphologic changes as those in a naturally occuring disease over several > years. This statement really bothers me. What, there aren't enough cats with renal issues? They need to induce it in healthy cats to do their research? /vomit Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > the major problem with *all* the kidney studies in cats is that *none* of > > them tracked the cats from birth. Most of the kidney studies were done on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This statement really bothers me. What, there aren't enough cats with renal > issues? They need to induce it in healthy cats to do their research? Tell me about it! Pisses the hell out of me too. Cost must be the issue. What I'll like to see is a survey of the diets that cats with CRF were fed. I doubt a definitive conclusion could be made because of all the variables. But if a high percentage of CRF cats ate a particular diet, I sure as hell want to know what it is so I can avoid feeding it to my cat. I don't mind playing long shots if there's the slightest possibility it will benefit my cats. Phil > /vomit > > > the major problem with *all* the kidney studies in cats is that *none* > of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Phil Well, I wanted to see what cats who developed crystals/blockages ate, but there were not many respondents. Would be nice to see what cats with those and CRF ate both before and after diagnosis and how they fared. Seems there could be plenty of responses without having to feed something explicitly to see whether it causes some problem. SignatureJean B. > Well, I wanted to see what cats who developed crystals/blockages > ate, but there were not many respondents. Would be nice to see > what cats with those and CRF ate both before and after diagnosis > and how they fared. Seems there could be plenty of responses > without having to feed something explicitly to see whether it > causes some problem. Oops, I should have said a "retrospective" study/survey. IOW, looking back at the feeding histories of cats that developed CRF. However, a controlled prospective study would probably be more accurate. Such a study would simply involve using owned cats fed their normal diets with no attempt to induce CRF. For example, cats fed Wellness, Science Diet, Nutro, etc. Normal feeding of regular commercial diets of the owners' choice. I'd really like to see a retrospective study of the percentages of cats that ate dry and cats that ate canned food and developed CRF. One study on CRF in cats showed a higher risk for cats fed ad libitum than meal-fed but the authors didn't mention the types of food that were fed. Ad libitum feeding would certainly involve only dry food. " Thirty four cases and 63 controls were included. Hospital of origin was not significant in any model. Three final models were developed. Hospital and weight at diagnosis or visit were significant, independent of sex and breed. Risk of being diagnosed with renal disease increased with decreasing body weight particularly for cats < 5.5 kg. Hospital, daily fiber intake, ad libitum feeding and either daily dietary potassium or ash intake were also significant. For both models, increasing fiber was associated with a decrease in risk of renal disease. Similarly, being fed ad libitum increased the likelihood of renal disease. Typical daily potassium and ash intakes both had somewhat U-shaped relationships with renal disease. No interactions were significant. The association between weight and renal disease is likely a result and not a possible cause of renal disease. Ad libitum feeding may also be a result of weight loss or cats which are partially anorexic. Decreased risk of renal disease was found at about 500 mg of daily potassium intake. The association between ash and renal disease may be due to a high correlation between potassium and ash intake." Another one by the same authors: "A case-control study examining diet and lifestyle variables to generate hypotheses of potential risk factors for chronic renal failure in pet cats was conducted in five private practices in Texas, USA and at the Texas A&M University Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital. A telephone questionnaire was used to gather information from owners of 38 cats newly diagnosed with CRF between December 1994 and 1995 and from owners of 56 control cats. Factor analysis was used to determine whether composite variables should be constructed to summarize the nutritional predictors adequately. The composite variables and other lifestyle variables were analyzed with logistic-regression. Three final exploratory models were developed: ad libitum feeding with fiber; ad libitum with Factor-2 (a composite variable composed of fiber, magnesium, protein, sodium and ash); and fiber alone. Ad libitum feeding and increased ash intake were associated with increased odds of CRF; increased dietary fiber, magnesium, protein and sodium were associated with decreased odds of CRF." I'll dig up the study and write to the authors. If my suspicions are correct, the first study (ACVIM) would be powerful ammunition to fire at dry food. Phil I agree. I'd like to see that too. BTW, I see the mention of increased magnesium at the very end of what's quoted below. Gee, this is complicated when you are supposed to control magnesium for other reasons............... Jean B. > > Well, I wanted to see what cats who developed crystals/blockages > > ate, but there were not many respondents. Would be nice to see [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Phil (...) > > them tracked the cats from birth. Most of the kidney studies were done on > > cats with *induced* renal failure or surgical reduction of the kidneys in a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This statement really bothers me. What, there aren't enough cats with renal > issues? They need to induce it in healthy cats to do their research? Yes, unless you're going to fund a 10 year+ longitudinal study.... S. Hi Phil, That kind of information is really hard to get. Third party manufacturers are very tight lipped about who they produce foods for, and of course the comments by Wellness in the news story make it pretty clear that Wellness isn't going to fess up. The vast majoirty of such foods are made by Diamond and Doanes. Doanes is building the PetSmart Authority label after Purina lost the contract to build it. Doanes is actually the second largest manufacturer of pet foods, but nobody ever heard of them, at least not by that name. Ol Roy is one huge Doane product. Brentwood, TENNESSEE 37027 Doane Pet Care Company. The Group's principal activities are to manufacture pet food products, primarily for dogs and cats, including dry, wet, semi-moist, soft dry, soft treats and biscuits. The Group also operates a machine shop and a structural steel fabrication plant that sells to third parties and supports the Group's facilities. The products are manufactured for store brands owned by retail customers, also known as private labels. The products are also manufactured under contract for national branded pet food companies and produced and sold under regional brands owned by the Company. The Group's customers include store brand customers such as mass merchandisers, pet specialty stores, grocery chains and farm and feed stores. The Group has over 600 customers including Wal-Mart and Costco and operates in the United States, Spain, Denmark and the United Kingdom. > I am getting sick and tired of Phil, Steve, and Gaubster ganging up on > Wellness with no hard facts - just suspicions. These three are Hills > junkies But you don't get sick of other people ganging up Hill's because *you* don't feed Hill's. I don't know how to tell you this, Mike, but I'll try to break it to you gently. Where do you think I first noticed the manufacturing label on the cans of Wellness? From the labels on the 14 oz cans of Wellness Chicken Formula in *my* cats' pantry! I rotate my cats' foods so they don't develop fixed food preferences and also to make it easier to switch them to prescription diets if the need arises. The *worst* and most difficult time to try to switch a cat's food is when they're sick and really need it. and will do anything to undermine the success of another good > company. Oh yes, Wellness is a good and honorable company... They short-changed the net weight of the food in the can - which *you* detected by actually weighing the contents, and then they slipped rice in the diet without listing the ingredient on the ingredients list. Those aren't innocent mistakes, my friend, especially since the ingredients must be listed by predominance in weight on the ingredients label. Now we find out that some (now all) of their diets are manufactured by unknown companies and not even by OMH themselves. They didn't "realize their errors", they simply got caught - *red-handed*! In view of this, its now virtually impossible *not* to suspect other business and manufacturing improprieties. I'm not remotely suggesting all other pet food manufacturers are 100% trustworthy and honorable, but to think Wellness is squeaky-clean and honorable, dispite what we already know, frankly disappoints me. I gave you much more credit than that, Mike. Hills probably make a good product but SO DOES WELLNESS and > many other companies. My cats are eating the Canadian Wellness with no > complaints and it smells the same as it always had Because a cat likes a food is no measure of the quality of the food. Many cats eat Friskies - and even the worst, Ol' Roy's - who makes Wal-Mart's food among many other store and generic brands. - almost good enough > to eat! Give it a rest. Sorry, Mike, I like to keep my head above the sand. Phil > I noticed some sizes and flavors are made in the USA and others are made in > Canada. I also saw large cans of Chicken made in Canada, and the 5.5 oz > cans of chicken were made in the USA. I didn't have time to check all the > flavors and sizes. I just double-checked my stock. I have chicken in 5.5oz and 3 oz. cans and they all say Product Of Canada. I also have some Beef & Chicken 3 oz. cans that say Product of the USA. I missed those on my first check. -- Liz >> > I think it's time to send a can of Wellness to Cornell's N.E.A.S. for a >> > proximate analysis including a separate Fats and Preservatives Analysis [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Phil Mine do as well. What do you suggest for the next best food? I was a die-hard Hill's consumer until I saw Gaubster's and Steve Crane's tactics in here. Call it merely perception if you will, but it totally turned me off to using their product. eq > >> > I think it's time to send a can of Wellness to Cornell's N.E.A.S. for a > >> > proximate analysis including a separate Fats and Preservatives Analysis [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Mine do as well. What do you suggest for the next best food? Actually, the Wysong Chicken Gourmet canned, and Chicken Au Jus - although Chicken Au Jus must be supplemented or fed in combination Vitality or Geriatric Dry because its not balanced. However, I'm a little shakey about Wysong himself. I was a > die-hard Hill's consumer until I saw Gaubster's and Steve Crane's > tactics in here. Call it merely perception if you will, but it totally > turned me off to using their product. As far as the nutritient composition of their diets, Hill's products are a tough act to beat. Although I found the protein content of Prescription k/d too low for cats in early-to-midstage renal failure. Phil >Since there are several Wellness customers in this group, why not take up a >collection to pay for the analyses? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Nominate a treasurer and count me in for the first $20. Phil count me in for another $20. I would like to put to rest this love affair with boutique foods that through advertising only, seem to offer some comfort to the buyers. I just distrust brands like Newman's et al since they all sell on the warm fuzzy feeling concept of "human grade" and "organic" which are bullshit terms in a pet food manufacturing facility. Let me know if it's a go and I'll contact you off list to paypal you the money. Now if only some staunch defender of Wellness will step up to the plate and put their money where their mouth. I do think we need to send in another can that is not made in Canada because standards may differ. Phosphorus is definitely on the need to know list. -mhd > >Since there are several Wellness customers in this group, why not take up a > >collection to pay for the analyses? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Let me know if it's a go and I'll contact you off list to paypal you > the money. Thanks, but I'd rather the group nominate a treasurer. Now if only some staunch defender of Wellness will step up > to the plate and put their money where their mouth. Yup. > I do think we need to send in another can that is not made in Canada > because standards may differ. Excellent suggestion. I up my ante to $40 for two cans. Although I'd really like to have the dry analyzed for synthetic preservatives, too. > Phosphorus is definitely on the need to know list. Absolutely. We can also accurately calculate the catbohydrates by difference. > -mhd Phil >> Let me know if it's a go and I'll contact you off list to paypal you >> the money. > >Thanks, but I'd rather the group nominate a treasurer. OK, I nominate you :-) -mhd > >> Let me know if it's a go and I'll contact you off list to paypal you > >> the money. > > > >Thanks, but I'd rather the group nominate a treasurer. > > OK, I nominate you :-) I nominate you! Between the shelter, and the ferals during this time of year, and something else I can't remember... oh yeah, work, I don't really have much time. I think this would be an interesting group-project, but more importantly, people will see that they're not forced to accept only a company's word for the nutritient content of their diets. I also feel adding rice - or adding/removing any ingredient - to the diet without reflecting the change on the ingredients list until being discovered and questioned, was poor business practice and leads me to suspect other poor business practices. But that's me. Phil > >Since there are several Wellness customers in this group, why not take up a > >collection to pay for the analyses? (...) > >Here're the details and fees: > > > >http://www.diaglab.vet.cornell.edu/neas/service/ (...) > Phil count me in for another $20. I would like to put to rest this > love affair with boutique foods that through advertising only, seem to > offer some comfort to the buyers. I just distrust brands like Newman's > et al since they all sell on the warm fuzzy feeling concept of "human > grade" and "organic" which are bullshit terms in a pet food > manufacturing facility. I would also contribute to this (well, I'm not interested in the dry foods) - would like to include a (e.g.) Hills food as a comparison (because if we don't trust the proximate figures from OMH, then clearly we don't trust Hills either, of course). Then again, by the time we add in all the foods of interest to different people, we'd be shelling out $1000s. Even worse if we wanted to get estimates of variability (a single can is but a single sample, with all the problems that entails). Variability might be an issue because people could argue post-hoc that the test sample was not representative. This reminds me that I keep meaning to contact Newman's Own to get the prox data from them... It's also the case that Merrick and Petguard have refused to give such data in the past. Still, if a company refuses to give the info, then it's probably a good policy decision to avoid their foods, rather then doing the analysis yourself! > Let me know if it's a go and I'll contact you off list to paypal you > the money. Now if only some staunch defender of Wellness will step up > to the plate and put their money where their mouth. Well, I'm not a 'staunch defender', but I do feed more Wellness than other foods. > I do think we need to send in another can that is not made in Canada > because standards may differ. > > Phosphorus is definitely on the need to know list. Would be good to see who's interested, and then work out what tests could be carried or how many different cans could be tested. If this actually happens, I think the cans should be sent in unlabelled (i.e., blind testing from Cornell's PoV). Also, given that various people seem to have dogs (cats!) in this race, we'd need to make sure that whoever organises the sending is trusted by the masses! I don't think the outsourcing is necessarily a problem at all, but you can't beat real data. If someone steps up as organiser / treasurer, I'd chuck $40 or even a tad more in the appropriate direction. Steve. > I would also contribute to this (well, I'm not interested in the > dry foods) Count me in. I'd have to send someone a check. > This reminds me that I keep meaning to contact Newman's Own to > get the prox data from them... I got some Newman's Own to try with the kittens, and they like it. I'd be interested in reading what you find out if you write them. SignatureCheryl >From: Cheryl jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com >> This reminds me that I keep meaning to contact Newman's Own to >> get the prox data from them... > >I got some Newman's Own to try with the kittens, and they like it. >I'd be interested in reading what you find out if you write them. I did contact Newman's a while back and they did send me the proximate analysis. I also contacted Nature's Variety and they sent me their proximate analysis as well, and a large bag of their dry food to try. I don't have the Newman's analysis anymore, but I may be able to dig up the Nature's Variety. I don't feed commercial food, but I do give my cats a treat now and then. So I tried both of these and my cats liked them both, even Meesha who normally won't touch commercial food. I wish they would have some uninterested party test all the top foods and put out a report. I bet it would prove to be very interesting. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: Cheryl jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com (...) > >I got some Newman's Own to try with the kittens, and they like it. > >I'd be interested in reading what you find out if you write them. > > I did contact Newman's a while back and they did send me the proximate > analysis. They also got back to me rather quickly with a very nice set of PDFs showing nutrient content as fed, as %DMV and as per 1000kcal, along with the AAFCO recommended values (albeit for growth and reproduction). Kudos to the customer service dept. However, it doesn't look terribly encouraging, especially for the turkey. The phos levels are very high, at around 40% above that recommended (per 1000kcal) for growth and repro. In real numbers this translates as c.1.5%DMV, or 2.7g/1000kcal. The Ca:Phos ratio is a bit off, too, with Ca at about 2.3%DMV. Ash is at c.5% and carbs at c.6%. The meat may be organic, but it looks like it's the scrapings off the bottom of the organic barrel. Turkey is the worst though. The chicken appears better, and the chicken and salmon doesn't look so bad - bang on for Phos and Ca, in fact. High in sodium though. >I also contacted Nature's Variety and they sent me their proximate > analysis as well, and a large bag of their dry food to try. I also have the NV analysis sheets, and these look better than the Newman's Own, at least in terms of phos levels (0.9-1%). Ash and carbs are quite high though, at 9% or so. My cats didn't like NV overmuch, alas, plus it's astoundingly expensive. In comparison, Hill's stuff seems to run at phos <=.8%, ash at c.6% with lower fat, but higher carb content than the above touchy-feely foods. (...) > I wish they would have some uninterested party test all the top foods > and put out a report. I bet it would prove to be very interesting. Yes. Mind you, the more proximate analyses you see, the less you tend to trust companies to formulate diets appropriately. I don't think the fact that OMH is outsourcing Wellness is inherently a problem, but if their food does go down the pan, then there are increasingly few foods left to feed. Maybe time to consider that home-cooked diet again... Ho hum, Steve. >From: "Steve G" news@stevethepsycho.co.uk >> I did contact Newman's a while back and they did send me the >proximate [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >Ho hum, >Steve. That's why I like feeding a home made diet. But I think for someone who feeds commercial food, ideally, it would be good to rotate the foods so that they are getting a good variety of nutrients from different sources. I know that's hard with cats though unless you start when they're young. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm steve G, Then again, by the time we add in all the foods of interest to different people, we'd be shelling out $1000s. Even worse if we wanted to get estimates of variability (a single can is but a single sample, with all the problems that entails). Variability might be an issue because people could argue post-hoc that the test sample was not representative. Excellent point. Internally, our legal beagels require three different lot numbers submitted and the average of those values taken. If any of the three lot numbers has a nutrient more than 10% in variance to the other two, then a fourth or possibly a fifth lot number will be required and the total averaged. I routinely plan on the costs of analyticals to Woodsen Tenet, Craft and Cornerstone Labs to run about $3,000 per food - baasic protein fat fiber, minerals, vitamins, and BHA, BHT Ethox lab work. I'd be happy to send in my $40, unless some on the NG think that would necessarily adulterate the results?? <snip> > Your suspicions are well justified. The can of Wellness I'm looking right > now says "Product of Canada". The bag of dry kitten food I have says: product of USA. Justin <snip> > <snip> > > > > Your suspicions are well justified. The can of Wellness I'm looking right > > now says "Product of Canada". > > The bag of dry kitten food I have says: product of USA. The Adult Super Lite dry says "Made in USA" also. Phil > Justin > > <snip> Monique, Unfortunately I am stuck with Google as a NG provider. Under it's new configuration it does not place the text you are replying to, in the box where you are forced to type in a response. The only way to do that is to copy paste the message into word, then add comments and then copy paste back into google. Annoying I agree. I disagree about quality implications - any time you use a third party to provide anything, there is some loss. It doesn't matter if that's third party building maintenance and window washers, third party computer IT services, third party anything, you lose some control. While this may not have much effect on commodity items where the price to the consumer is the critical issue - paper towels, gasoline, generic pet food, or any other commodity item as examples, it does have effect on high quality products of any kind. The third party provider is not concerned about your company's name and reputation nearly as much as you are. Their objective is to make a profit and provide you with the least cost product that meets your minimum expectations. > Monique, > I disagree about quality implications - any time you use a third [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you are. Their objective is to make a profit and provide you with the > least cost product that meets your minimum expectations. The trouble with your argument is that this hasn't been their only plant. People are happy with their current food, much of which is produced in other plants. So I don't see that changing ownership of *one* of several plants will instantly turn Wellness bad. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > Monique, > > I disagree about quality implications - any time you use a third [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > The trouble with your argument is that this hasn't been their only plant. > People are happy with their current food, much of which is produced in other [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* People's "happiness" with their current pet food is completely subjective. It's one thing to look at an ingredient list (which is designed to make people "feel good")and it's quite another thing to look at the actual nutrition in the product. Things like phosphorus, calcium, sodium, magnesium, etc. levels. How about the antioxidant levels? What about the urinary pH output? Why don't they make their own food; why do they "outsource" it? >> The trouble with your argument is that this hasn't been their only >> plant. People are happy with their current food, much of which is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > levels? What about the urinary pH output? Why don't they make their > own food; why do they "outsource" it? Er, they explained why in the helpful article. Perhaps you should read it. As for happiness, since transitioning Oscar to wellness wet, she has more energy, acts more kittenish, is more alert, and has gone from being slightly pudgy to nicely trim. The proof is in the results. The difference makes it seem as though her previous food was dulling her mind and her body. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > As for happiness, since transitioning Oscar to wellness wet, she has more > energy, acts more kittenish, is more alert, and has gone from being slightly > pudgy to nicely trim. The proof is in the results. The difference makes it > seem as though her previous food was dulling her mind and her body. > > -- Well, good for you then! (or Oscar) Yet, I wonder how many people would even try their product if it weren't for the "marketing" on the label. >> As for happiness, since transitioning Oscar to wellness wet, she has >> more energy, acts more kittenish, is more alert, and has gone from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would even try their product if it weren't for the "marketing" on the > label. I'll be honest; I went to wellness almost right away, not because of the marketing but because I'd heard similar stories about cat behavior with Wellness, as well as many people claiming that hairball/vomit issues were greatly reduced or non-existent with the brand. It's possible that other canned foods would have the same effect on Oscar. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!*
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