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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / February 2005Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?
Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work? Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive? Let me know if you've ever been in this situation. Thanks as always! > Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work? > Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive? More likely the spayed female would become aggressive, develop male behaviors -- which could cause a lot of trouble. > Let me > know if you've ever been in this situation. It would depend on a lot of things. Are they indoor-only, indoor/outdoor, outdoor-only? Are they already friendly and/or mating? Without an intact female in his home, an intact and/or vasectomied male will have less reason to stay home. What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries." The females still go in heat and enjoy mating (tho they can't get pregnant), so the males are scared to leave home for fear of missing some action. :) As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the male a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then. This is a complicated subject. I've gone into much more detail at my website. Margaret S.  Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more > females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > male > a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then. WTF is wrong with you? Where do you get this half-baked information? To the OP: Please get the male neutered as well. He will still spray, roam, fight, all the negative behaviors that go along with an intact male. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more > > females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > male > > a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then. /snip/ > He will still spray, > roam, fight, all the negative behaviors that go along with an intact male. That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal of time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:) As I said at my site: "Sometimes neutering [a tomcat] will prevent or lessen [spraying], sometimes not. Vasectomy will NOT lessen it; a vasectomied tom will still behave like a full, intact tom." And: "Another problem [besides spraying] is that, tho some male dogs can be satisfied with one mate, and one tom can be enough for a female cat, an intact or vasectomied tomcat will probably need a harem of at least two or three intact females or more to keep him happy." Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. And if they all agree, go for it. :) > That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or > vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal > of > time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:) It is completely irresponsible to allow an intact tom to roam outside. > As I said at my site: > "Sometimes neutering [a tomcat] will prevent or lessen [spraying], [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > intact or vasectomied tomcat will probably need a harem of at least two or > three intact females or more to keep him happy." If a vasectomied tom still has all the intact behaviors, why do it? I don't get it. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG >> That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or >> vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > If a vasectomied tom still has all the intact behaviors, why do it? I don't > get it. I swear this one is a real looney. > >> That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or > >> vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I swear this one is a real looney. The idea is to make living, breathing creatures conform to your lovely, shining, ideology of all creatures living as God Intended. Males must have testicles and females ovaries or they are not All Natural and Pure and God Intended. It does not matter if they suffer, or behave in ways that mean they cannot live indoors where they are safe. As long as they are Pure and Intact. Have I mentioned that Margaret is Out of her f.cking Mind? > > If a vasectomied tom still has all the intact behaviors, why do it? I don't > > get it. > > I swear this one is a real looney. I think she cleaned too many litterboxes with straight bleach in a small room. > > That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or > > vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal > > of > > time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:) > > It is completely irresponsible to allow an intact tom to roam outside. Not to a freak like Margaret. She is unmoved by how many cats die every day due to overpopulation. She must have her cats "all natural and organic." Phil's photos of the garbage cans of euthanized kittens would only make her unhappy if they are missing their ovaries and testes. Margaret is a cat abuser. She has caused her own cats to suffer terribly for her idiotic "back to nature" idiology. I hope Margaret catches an all -natural and organic form of Bubonic Plague. > Not to a freak like Margaret. She is unmoved by how many > cats die every day due to overpopulation. She must have her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "back to nature" idiology. I hope Margaret catches an all > -natural and organic form of Bubonic Plague. Ugh. How disgusting. Is she living vicariously through her cats' sex lives? Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into heat and pumping out kittens. Poor things barely have anything left for themselves. As soon as they are spayed, there is such a dramatic change. They put on weight, and honestly, seem relieved. Unneutered, mature males stink, to be frank, and do not play well with others. It takes at least a few weeks until we can even let them out with other cats. Sometimes they come in with nasty wounds from fighting and are at great risk for FIV. When we're running a FIV/FeLV test on a beat-up tom, it's time to pray that thing isn't positive. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG /snip/ > Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two > is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into > heat and pumping out kittens. Not if they've had their uterus removed. "Remove the uterus but leave the ovaries" prevents pregnancy. (As does tubal ligation, tho I've been told there are more safety issues with tubals: ask your vet. I'll try to add more on tubals at my site.) Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Margaret S. You really are certifiably nuts. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. > > /snip/ > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You really are certifiably nuts. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. She advocates this practice, but does not have the guts to say why. > You really are certifiably nuts. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. Certifiably nuts? Personally I'd say "Bloody barking mad!" Helen M >Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two >is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >at great risk for FIV. When we're running a FIV/FeLV test on a beat-up tom, >it's time to pray that thing isn't positive. That's my shelter experience as well. The only time a vasectomy seems logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The dominant male can take the females you can't catch out of heat. I've been trying for a year to trap one female through several litters. She's seen her kittens trapped and she's too smart to get in that trap no matter how hungry she is. Those who have already been spayed or neutered get in the traps instead <sigh>. If I can get that big male, whom I know is the father of them all, I'm going to try to find a vet who will do a vasectomy. BarB /snip/ > The only time a vasectomy seems > logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The dominant [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > BarB Vasectomy has worked in other feral colonies. I don't know how long it might take to find a vet in your area who can do vasectomy on a cat. You might begin your shopping early, so as to have a vet located (and compare prices) before you catch the big male. Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > Vasectomy has worked in other feral colonies. No it doesn't. Been there done that. Spermatozoa remains in feline ejaculates for *7 weeks* after vasectomy. If you actually knew what you are talking about you would know that, and if you've actually worked with ferals - which I doubt you have, you'd know a tom can do a helluva lotta slam dunkin' in 7 weeks. The view from your seat in the bleachers is very different from the view on the field. The key to reducing feral births is the *female*. Not the male. Now pay attention and learn something, so people might stop laughing at your utter stupidity. 100 female + 100 males = 100 litters. Are you with me so far? 100 females + 50 males = 100 litters. Gee, how about that! I'll make this very easy for you to understand. 100 females + 1 male = 100 litters. Now watch this: 100 males + 1 female = 1 litter. Do you get the picture or do you need color slides? You're so wrapped up in your self-reinforcing delusion about vasectomy, oophorectomy (that's ovariectomy to you), and tubal ligation that your missing the most important and ultimately determining factor against these surgeries. Can you guess what that is? I don't think you have a clue. NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT THE CAT. All your bullshit about vasectomies and tubals is really about *you* and *your* hangups and neurotic phobias and not about the cats. You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts >"...your missing the most important and >ultimately determining factor against >these surgeries. Can you guess what >that is? I don't think you have a >clue.NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT >THE CAT." What veterinary school did you graduate from and where did you get your license? An investigation on the school and the locale's licensing procedures need an invesstigation. I've been informed by scores of veterinarians and veterinary schools in the USA that spaying prevents ovarian cancer and neutering prevents testicular cancer. The birth control issue regarding the birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. > You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly > significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. Heh. This is beginning to look like a situation comedy. Go back and READ THE THREAD, dumbass. > What veterinary school did you graduate from and where did you get your > license? An investigation on the school and the locale's licensing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > strongly > significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. Are you responding to Phil?? Do you honestly think that Phil is against spay/neuter? Would you please read all of a post before going off half-cocked? This quote - >>"...your missing the most important and >ultimately determining factor >>against >>these surgeries. Can you guess what >that is? I don't think you have a >>clue.NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT >THE CAT." was in regards to vasectomies and "remove the uterus but keep the ovaries" surgeries for females. BTW - I asked our vet about that surgery, and she was like "WTF? Why on earth would anyone do that?" She also said the cat would still be at risk for breast cancer and it would be inhumane to have her keep going into heat. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG Luvskats wrote: <snip more proof she can't comprehend even the simplest idea> Do you ever read anything? EVER???? The surgeries without benefit to the cat being discussed are tubal ligatione, vasectomies, and spay without removing the ovaries, NONE of which benefit the cat or eliminate sexual behaviors. Idiot. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly > significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. I'm afraid you're quoting Phil out of context here. Also I'm sure he was posting rather hastily. I'm sure he would agree that prevention of pregnancy is a benefit to a female cat who would otherwise have her strength depleted by repeated litters. And when an owner refuses a regular spay, at least getting the cat's uterus removed is a benefit (when the owner will not agree to any surgery that would remove the ovaries also). Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying / Neutering and Flame War Zone Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > I'm afraid you're quoting Phil out of context here. > > Also I'm sure he was posting rather hastily. As usual, you're wrong. At least you're consistant -- consistantly wrong. I'm sure he would agree that > prevention of pregnancy is a benefit to a female cat who would otherwise > have her strength depleted by repeated litters. No I would not. Continuous cycling is much *more* stressful than having litters in row. I'm amazed you have the audacity speak on this subject as if you actually knew what you're talking about. You do know queens are naturally seasonally polyestrous, don't you? But did you know the cycles are controlled by photoperiod? Intact ferals and strays that are exposed to natural outdoor light usually stop cycling in the winter months (this is so kittens aren't born in cold weather). However, many queens living indoors under artificial light will cycle *continuously* throughout the year. That's certainly more stressful than a litter or two a year - which is exactly what cats naturally evolved to produce. The stress of continious year-round cycling will certainly reduce disease resistance. Go away so I don't have to waste my time debunking your nonsense. Unfortunately, you're too dangerous to the feline species to ignore. /snip/ > I'm sure he would agree that > > prevention of pregnancy is a benefit to a female cat who would otherwise > > have her strength depleted by repeated litters. > > No I would not. Continuous cycling is much *more* stressful than having > litters in row. /snip/ > However, > many queens living indoors under artificial light will cycle *continuously* throughout the year. Once brought out of heat by a 'sterile mating', how long do you think they go before their next heat? Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying / Neutering and Flame War Zone Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Once brought out of heat by a 'sterile mating', 'Sterile mating' in cats is called "pseudopregnancy". how long do you think they > go before their next heat? I don't know exactly because the time between the estrus cycles is longer in pseudopregnant cats. They usually stop their mating behavior for a month or 2, but my best guestimate is probably closer to between 40 and 50 days. A queen in good shape can go through 4 or 5 pseudopregnancies in one season. Now tell me that's enjoyable! > Once brought out of heat by a 'sterile mating', how long do you think they > go before their next heat? You already said it yourself... in a few weeks or months. That's way too often IMHO. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > Continuous cycling is much *more* stressful than having > litters in row. Women who've hit about 35 should realise this. (-; Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > > Continuous cycling is much *more* stressful than having > > litters in row. > > Women who've hit about 35 should realise this. (-; Don't forget, she didn't even know what hysterectomy is! LOL! Phil /snip/ > > I'm sure he would agree that > > prevention of pregnancy is a benefit to a female cat who would otherwise > > have her strength depleted by repeated litters. > > No I would not. Continuous cycling is much *more* stressful than having > litters in row. How many litters in a row? Year-round litters for fertile cats who spend a lot of time indoors, or "a litter or two" per year for outdoor cats? (And I assume by 'cycling' you mean the 40-50 days between heats after 'sterile mating'.) /snip/ > Intact ferals and strays that are exposed to natural outdoor light usually stop cycling in the winter months (this is so kittens aren't born in cold weather). And indoor/outdoor pet cats? Actually, the 40-50 days between heats that you elsewhere call 'cycling', fits what my n-o-h cats did in summer, but (perhaps because they had their own cat-door and chose their own indoor/outdoor schedule) mine did not go in heat in winter, iirc. > However, many queens living indoors under artificial light will cycle *continuously* throughout the year. That's certainly more stressful than a litter or two a year - which is exactly what cats naturally evolved to produce. Another good reason why the non-desexing sterilizations should not be used for indoor-only cats, or by owners not experienced with intact animals. Margaret S. Signaturemargaret@sangerfanUTERUS.com remove the obvious http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying/Neutering and Flame War Zone Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > How many litters in a row? Year-round litters for fertile cats who spend a > lot of time indoors, or "a litter or two" per year for outdoor cats? (And > I > assume by 'cycling' you mean the 40-50 days between heats after 'sterile > mating'.) A litter or two per year?? Let me go ask my feral trapper friend about that. Might be true here in MA/NH, where we have a short summer. But, my trapper friend just caught 8 week old OUTDOOR kittens. In freezing cold NH. Where did they come from? The kitten fairy? No, a feral colony. What about warm climates? I wonder how many litters those poor outdoor cats produce a year? I know I keep saying I'm done, but you irritate the living sh.t out of me. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > I know I keep saying I'm done, but you irritate the living sh.t out of me. Some people feed off knowing that. Don't feed them. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > > I know I keep saying I'm done, but you irritate the living sh.t out of me. > > Some people feed off knowing that. > > Don't feed them. I'm finished with "Margaret S." myself. > You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly > significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. I think you may have misunderstood Phil P's position on this issue. Justin > You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What veterinary school did you graduate from University of Cat. I studied under Prof. Felinestein, F.C.D. (Felis Catus Domesticus). and where did you get your > license? Department of Motor Vehicles. An investigation on the school and the locale's licensing procedures > need an invesstigation. Naa, I think you ADD meds need an adjustment. > I've been informed by scores of veterinarians You're too uninformed and misinformed to know "scores of veterinarians" and > veterinary schools in the USA that spaying prevents ovarian cancer Is that all? Aren't you forgetting cancers of the uterus and mammery glands? Uterine Leiomyomas-- the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visable. Ovariohysterectomy usually produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. Uterine Leiomyosarcomas - malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. Uterine Fibrosarcoma -- very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis. Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. Uterine Endometrial Adenocarcinoma -- A very common uterine tumor, usually occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain. Preventable by spaying. Mammary Gland Neoplasia: the third most common type of tumor in female cats comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the breasts closer to the tail. Mammary Neoplasm Mammary neoplasms account for about half of all tumors in bitches. Although they are less prevalent in queens, mammary neoplasms are still the third most common tumor type in cats. They primarily affect older animals with a mean age of about 10 years. Most affected animals are intact females or females that have undergone oophorectomy late in life. Mam?mary tumors are rare in males and in young animals of ei?ther sex. Early ovariohysterectomy is strongly protective against the development of mammary tumors. Bitches neutered before their first estrous cycle are at no greater risk for mammary tumors than are males. After 2.5 years of age or after the sec?ond estrous cycle, ovariohysterectomy is no longer protective in bitches. The age after which ovariohysterectomy is no longer beneficial for queens is unknown, but there is no doubt that intact queens are at much greater risk than are neutered ones. The progestin s used to suppress estrus pro?mote hyperplastic and neoplastic changes in the feline and canine mammary glands. Benign mammary tumors are found in more than 70% of bitches receiving long-term progestin treatment. About half of mammary tumors in bitches are benign, whereas feline mammary tumors are almost al?ways malignant. Small Animal Internal Medicine, 3rd ed. Nelson R, Couto C. p. 884, Mosby 2003 Feline Mammary Gland Tumors Mammary gland tumors are the third most common tu? mors in cats. Of mammary gland tumors in cats, 80% are malignant (adenocarcinoma); 25% of cats have ulcerated masses, and more than 50% have multiple glands involved. More than 80% of cats with malignant mammary masses develop metastasis. Reported sites of metastasis include lymph nodes, lungs, pleura, liver, diaphragm, adrenal glands, and kidney. Lymph node metastasis occurs in 49% of cats.- Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Third Ed., , Slatter D Vol. 2, p 2442. Saunders 2003 Ovarian Cystadenoma -- cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Also preventable by spaying. Ovarian Adenocarcinoma - malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by spaying female cats. Epithelial (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors. Preventable by spaying Germ Cell Tumor--: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Uncommon, can be moderately malignant. Ovariohysterectomy, chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by spaying. and > neutering prevents testicular cancer. Especially particulary nasty Prostatic Adenocarcinomas -- malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland; prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis, and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males, neutering considered preventative. http://maxshouse.com/spaying_and_neutering.htm The birth control issue regarding the > birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly > significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat. Just for you I'll use one long continous sentence so you don't forget what you've read when you stop at the periods. You're so wrapped up in your self-reinforcing delusion about vasectomy, oophorectomy (that's ovariectomy to you), and tubal ligation that your missing the most important and ultimately determining factor against these surgeries can you guess what that is I don't think you have a clue NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT THE CAT. Was that easier for you to comprehend? Vasectomy, oophorectomy, and tubal ligation were the only surgeries I mentioned. Thus "these" meant "those". I'd bet your boss only gives you 10 minute lunch breaks -- if your breaks were any longer than that he would have to retrain you. >> You're so wrapped up in your Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com spouts >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > University of Cat. I studied under Prof. Felinestein, F.C.D. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <snicker> > (Felis Catus Domesticus). > [quoted text clipped - 156 lines] > your breaks were any longer than that he would have to retrain > you. LOL Phil. SignatureCheryl /snip/ > Aren't you forgetting cancers of the uterus and mammery > glands? Thanks for the useful post. Now if a middle-aged cat is sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", which of these benefits would she lose? (Aside from whatever mammary tumor protection she has already lost by reaching adulthood and having litters for several years.) She's certainly going to get the benefit of no longer having litters. > Uterine Leiomyomas-- the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. > This tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain. > Preventable by spaying. > Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Third Ed., , Slatter D Vol. 2, p 2442. > Saunders 2003 /snip/ > Ovarian Cystadenoma -- cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate > size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Also preventable by spaying. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > malignant. Ovariohysterectomy, chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for > a cure. Preventable by spaying. > /snip/ > > > Aren't you forgetting cancers of the uterus and mammery > > glands? > > Thanks for the useful post. No thanks are necessary. It was for the benefit of others since the information is wasted on you. Now if a middle-aged cat is sterilized by > "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", which of these benefits would she > lose? She would still be at risk of developing, ovarian adenocarcinoma, Epithelial (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell tumor (in cats, granulosa cell tumors have a >50% chance of being malignant), Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors, Germ Cell Tumor--: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. > She's certainly going to get the benefit of no longer having litters. ...at the expense of *tremdous* stress of *continious, *year-round* cycling! Continious stress leads to a *myriad* of diseases as resistance to disease decreases. Your argument for hysterectomy as opposed to ovariohysterectomy is nothing less than ridiculous. > Thanks for the useful post. Now if a middle-aged cat is sterilized by > "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", which of these benefits would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > She's certainly going to get the benefit of no longer having litters. Again, why can't she be spayed????? Sheesh... it's like talking to a brick wall. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > Thanks for the useful post. Now if a middle-aged cat is sterilized by > > "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", which of these benefits would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Again, why can't she be spayed????? Because I'm talking about animals whose owners sincerely don't believe in s/n. Those who sincerely oppose it and wouldn't take it even if it were free, but are willing to use an alternative, if informed of the available alternatives. They may not talk to you (or visit shelters at all) but there are such people, and they do tend to produce a lot of litters. What's the harm in at least having a brochure or something about the alternatives? If the person who visits your shelter will be satisfied with a free spay, still he might pass the brochure on to his sincerely-anti-spay brother-in-law. Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying / Neutering Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > They may not talk to you (or visit shelters at all) but there are such > people, and they do tend to produce a lot of litters. I'll give you that there may be a few kooks out there that are opposed to s/n. One of my friends answers the "free kittens" ads in the local paper and talks to them about s/n. She has gotten a lot of cats fixed that way. She's never run into anyone who is against s/n after she tells them the health/behavior benefits and gives them a way to get it done. > What's the harm in at least having a brochure or something about the > alternatives? If the person who visits your shelter will be satisfied with > a > free spay, still he might pass the brochure on to his sincerely-anti-spay > brother-in-law. I could never, in good conscience, promote something that is detrimental to a cat's health. From what you have told me, and what our vet said, a female who gets a hysterectomy is still going to go into heat and is at risk for cancer. A male who gets a vasectomy is going to still roam, fight, spray, and is at risk for FIV. Why the hell would I promote that?? Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > Because I'm talking about animals whose owners sincerely don't believe in > s/n. Those who sincerely oppose it and wouldn't take it even if it were > free, but are willing to use an alternative, if informed of the available > alternatives. Ummm, why would they refuse to have one type of operation but okay another type? This makes no sense at all. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > > Because I'm talking about animals whose owners sincerely don't believe in > > s/n. Those who sincerely oppose it and wouldn't take it even if it were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ummm, why would they refuse to have one type of operation but okay > another type? This makes no sense at all. Of course she makes no sense at all. She's an ignorant, delusional f.cking amoral babbling moron. And she can quote me on that. > Because I'm talking about animals whose owners sincerely don't believe in > s/n. You're even more uninformed, unaware and incognizant of the *real* reasons why people don't neuter their cats. You can't offer a solution or "alternative" to a problem that you don't remotely understand. The vast majority - if not practically all -- owners that oppose neutering fall into two basic categories that aren't *remotely* related to your absurd, dangerous and utterly *stupid* "alrernatives". The first category are people under the delusion that cats have a "right" to and "enjoy having "children" and females "need" to have at least one litter to fulfill their need to be mothers and " experience the joy of motherhood". Your dangerous and absurd alternatives have absolutely no impact whatsoever on this delusional category of people with their absurd mindset. The second category are people who do not want to subject their cats to *any* anesthetic and surgical risks. Some of these people will actually allow their cats to *die* rather than consent to surgery. The surgical alternatives that you mindlessly, and ignorantly suggest for queens and toms are even *more* dangerous and carry *higher* risks than *normal* neutering procedures. Thus, your asinine theory and dangerous "alternatives" do *not* apply to this category of pet owners **either**. The *only* small group of people that might find your ill-advised and dangerous "alternatives" appealling are a small group of men who are under the delusion that their toms "need" to have sex to retain their "maleness" and "enjoy life". After this misinformed minor group of macho morons experience all the unpleasant behaviors of a sex hormone-driven cat, they will either abandon or surrender the cat rather than pay for another surgery to correct their stupid mistake. An even smaller % may be reluctant to subject their cats to another surgery or relinquish the cat. Thus the cats will probably spend the rest of their miserable lives locked in a basement or other form of isolation from the home and family to prevent property from being ruined and the family disturbed by a cat who has no control over his hormone-driven behavior. > They may not talk to you (or visit shelters at all) but there are such > people, and they do tend to produce a lot of litters. > > What's the harm in at least having a brochure or something about the > alternatives? Because you *mislead* pet owners by not stating the risks, adverse effects and very real possible short and long-term complications and consequences of your asinine alternatives. You flippantly suggest ill-advised "alternatives" that carry very serious and *life-threatening* risks without the slightest care or clue of what the hell you're talking about. IOW, you're nothing more than an ignorant, dangerous, babbling idiot. You quote the Cornell Feline Health Center on your ill-advised site in reference to FIV/FeLV. Thus you obviously find Cornell credible and rightly so. Here's what Cornell thinks of one of your asine "alternatives": "Tubal Ligation The oviducts (tubes connecting the ovaries to the uterus) are tied off in this surgical procedure. Al?though it prevents unwanted pregnancies by prohib?iting the sperm from reaching the egg, it does not preclude certain reproductive diseases, such as pyo?metritis and tumors, from occurring. And since the ovaries are not surgically removed, hormones con?tinue to be produced so that the female cat repeatedly comes into estrus. Because the surgical risks, recovery period, and op?eration costs are similar to those of spaying, this pro?cedure is not recommended." Excerpted from The Cornell Book of Cats, p.139. You flippantly and ignorantly suggest tubal ligation but *fail* to state - either intentionally or ignorantly - that the queen will be be at *increased risk* of a potentially *life-threatening* condition called "cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra complex" as a *direct* result of repeated exposure of the endometrium to high concentrations of estrogen followed by high concentrations of progesterone without pregnancy. Cystic endometrial hyperplasia is followed by Pyometra - which is a serious and potentially *fatal* infection of the uterus -especially if it produces complete closure of cervix -- which prevents escape of the pus and masks early warning signs of this potentially fatal disease. But the time owners realize something is wrong, the uterus can rupture and the cat dies of massive systemic septicemia. Here's more from Cornell: "Pyometritis can follow a postcopulation or postinsemination infection, or it can be the final result in the cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra complex. This complex affects intact queens. Its frequency of occurrence increases with age, following repeated nonproductive matings, pseudocopulation, and spontaneous ovulation." You also fail to state the dangers of hysterectomy in cats and that the cat is at increased risk of ovarian cancers and increased stress due to repeated heats, and a decrease in disease resistance as a result of the continued stress. Not to mention the myriad of diseases known to be caused or exacerbated by stress and the constant mental anguish of repeated heats. Actually I'm thankful you posted your ignorant and utterly stupid "alternatives" here because knowing now that ignorant idiots like you are publishing dangerous ill-advise information that could be determental to the health and welfare of cats, I will now add a section to my site dedicated to debunking your utterly stupid and dangerous "alternatives". With 3 million cat-owning visitors so far and between 40,000 and 50,000 cat-owning visitors a month, I think I can say with reasonable certainty, I will shoot your nonsense down on the runway before it even gets off the ground and causes the illness or death of innocent cats. I don't say this to many people but I cordially invite you to f.ck off and die you stupid, ignorant, babbling a.shole before you cause the illness or death to some innocent cat. You're a clear and present danger to *all* cats. FOAD. /snip/ > The surgical alternatives that you mindlessly, and ignorantly suggest for > queens and toms are even *more* dangerous and carry *higher* risks than > *normal* neutering procedures. Do you mean during surgery? Because vasectomy and tubal ligation are more difficult, so the animal is under anesthetic longer? Do you think non-ovario-hystrectomy takes longer than regular spay, in which all fragments of ovarian tissue must be found and removed? /snip/ > You quote the Cornell Feline Health Center on your ill-advised site in > reference to FIV/FeLV. Thus you obviously find Cornell credible and rightly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > prohibiting the sperm from reaching the egg, it does not preclude certain > reproductive diseases, such as pyometritis and tumors, from occurring. And > since the ovaries are not surgically removed, hormones continue to be > produced so that the female cat repeatedly comes into estrus. > Because the surgical risks, recovery period, and operation costs are > similar to those of spaying, this procedure is not recommended." > > Excerpted from The Cornell Book of Cats, p.139. Do they say anything about non-ovario-hystrectomy (ie "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries")? What I'd like to see is a comparison of n-o-h vs tubal ligation (or any other possible surgeries that retain the ovaries). > You flippantly and ignorantly suggest tubal ligation but *fail* to state - > either intentionally or ignorantly - that the queen will be be at *increased [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wrong, the uterus can rupture and the cat dies of massive systemic > septicemia. That's what I was told decades ago. My earlier posts said that tubal ligation was less safe than non-ovario-hystrectomy, because tubal ligation left the uterus in place to develop later problems; but Zuzu and Arjun seemed to disagree about the relative safety ranking. So at my site and elsewhere I referred the whole question to the owner's vet. > Here's more from Cornell: > "Pyometritis can follow a postcopulation or postinsemination infection, or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stress. Not to mention the myriad of diseases known to be caused or > exacerbated by stress and the constant mental anguish of repeated heats. I've posted already about this 'stress of repeated heats'. Most people who say that, seem to be assuming an owner who has done a non-desexing surgery is then going to confine the animal and prevent her mating. :) That would be rather silly, as when she can no longer get pregnant, there is no reason to prevent her mating (with a nearby vaccinated tom). I'm not going to repeat the same info about what normal mating in a normal situation is like, whenever a new person comes into this thread. I already copied it to my site under "Miscellaneous questions and possible urban legends." As for your site, please don't quote me. Everyone's site and usenet posts are automatically protected by copyright and can be quoted only with permission. I don't mind a debate, but I don't want outdated versions of my words floating around. Do you prefer to be quoted directly at my site, or paraphrased, or what? Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying/Neutering Flame War Zone updated Feb 2 Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. <Margret's stupid comments snipped> > > Here's more from Cornell: > > "Pyometritis can follow a postcopulation or postinsemination infection, or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > rather silly, as when she can no longer get pregnant, there is no reason to > prevent her mating (with a nearby vaccinated tom). Are you a complete f.cking idiot or are you just doing one hell of a good act? What part of: "REPEATED NONPRODUCTIVE MATINGS" don't you understand? NONPRODUCTIVE MATINGS means f.cking without resulting in pregnancy, idiot. At first I thought you were simply ignorant. But you're not ignorant, you're STUPID. The most dangerous part about stupid people like you is that you're too stupid to understand you're incapable of learning. My guess is you're the product of generations of Kentucky backwoods inbreeding. >As for your site, please don't quote me. Everyone's site and usenet posts are automatically protected by copyright Request DENIED. You're just as ignorrant of FAIR USE rights as you are about cats. Read it and weep: "Fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and "transformative" purpose such as to comment upon, criticize or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner." Look like you're sh.t out of luck! LOL! In fact, I'll be sure to make YOUR NAME part of the title of the page so people can Google you're stupidity and dangerousness easily. I'll also use "tubal ligation+cats", hysterectomy+cats", "vasectomy+cats", and your idiotic "remove the uterus and leave the ovaries" phrase so any entry that remotely relates to you will bring up my page. I'll make you famous! LOL! /snip/ I'll answer in more detail at my site. Phil posted: > > > Here's more from Cornell: > > > "Pyometritis can follow a postcopulation or postinsemination infection, or it can be the final result in the cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra complex. This complex affects intact queens." I presume that by 'intact' the Cornell writer means queens that still have their uteri, which mine did not. Still everyone should consult their own vet about all these potential dangers, including 'stump pyometra'. Cornell: > > > "Its frequency of occurrence increases with age, following repeated nonproductive matings, pseudocopulation, and spontaneous ovulation." Phil: > NONPRODUCTIVE MATINGS means F_____G without resulting in pregnancy `. Me: As to why my non-ovario-hystrectomied cats never had such problems (nor even 'stump pyometra'), I'll answer at my site. See Flame War Zone / Tech debate. /snip/ > >As for your site, please don't quote me. Everyone's site and usenet posts > are automatically protected by copyright [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the > copyright owner." Do you recognize any limits on amount of quoted material? Margaret S. Signaturemargaret@sangerfanUTERUS.com remove the obvious http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying/Neutering Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > /snip/ > > I'll answer in more detail at my site. I'm not intrested in your answers. You have nothing intelligent to say. > Phil posted: > > > > Here's more from Cornell: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I presume that by 'intact' the Cornell writer means queens that still have > their uteri, which mine did not. You have a serious comprehension problem - maybe that's why you're so stupid and can't learn. Did you not list tubal ligation as one of your asinine "alternatives"? I don't have time to waste on an idiot. I think enough information has been exposed to reduce your credibility to ZERO. No one takes you seriously - other than idiots like yourself. > > /snip/ > > > > I'll answer in more detail at my site. > > I'm not intrested in your answers. You have nothing intelligent to say. I find her fascinating ... in the way that a train wreck is. /snip/ > > Phil posted: > > > > > Here's more from Cornell: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > I presume that by 'intact' the Cornell writer means queens that still have their uteri /snip/ > Did you not list tubal ligation as one of your asinine > "alternatives"? Please be careful what you are suggesting here. Wouldn't at least some of the problems mentioned in the whole previous Cornell quote apply to "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries" as well as to tubal ligation? This is getting too confused for Usenet. Let me know when you get your page up; maybe you'll make it clearer there. My comments are at my site under "Tech debate". Please refrain from your careless answers that might confuse lurkers and endanger their animals. Lurkers, please do not assume a non-desexing alternative is safe from a particular danger just because of something Phil hastily posted here. Ask your vet! Ask about 'stump pyometra'. Margaret S. Signaturemargaret@sangerfanUTERUS.com remove the obvious http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying/Neutering and Flame War Zone Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > Please refrain from your careless answers that might confuse lurkers and > endanger their animals. Yes, please do Margaret!! > Lurkers, please do not assume a non-desexing alternative is safe from a > particular danger just because of something Phil hastily posted here. Ask > your vet! Ask about 'stump pyometra'. I doubt Phil suggested that hysterectomy or tubal ligation is safe. I believe he was arguing the opposite. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG I wasn't going waste anymore time on you - but you're far too dangerous to ignore. > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Please be careful what you are suggesting here. LOL! *YOU* are suggesting procedures that can have *life-threatening* consequences! My suggestion to anyone reading your *dangerous* advice is to ignore your ramblings because you're a babbling idiot without a clue of what you're talking about. Wouldn't at least some of > the problems mentioned in the whole previous Cornell quote apply to "remove > the uterus but leave the ovaries" as well as to tubal ligation? Unbelievable. You didn't comprehend a word of my previous post. You don't even understand what *you* said! . Now, I almost - but don't quite - feel sorry for calling you a babbling idiot because I see you truly are. Just so others don't become confused by your utter stupidity and lack of comprehension, I'll bury your incoherent babbling under a pile of fact. Hopefully it will smother you enough to go away. *You*, not I, suggested tubal ligation as an alternative to ovariohysterectomy, did you not? I *oppose* tubal ligations, hysterectomies, and vasectomies in cats and *support* ovariohysterectomies - and early-age neutering. Is that *clear*? Or do you need a plexiglass plate installed in your abdomen so you can read? Because that's how far up your a.s your head is. Do you even know what a tubal ligation is? The queen's fallopian tubes are cut or tied so the egg from the ovary can't reach the uterus - thus she can't become pregnant after mating. The cat would still have her ovaries and uterus and still go into repeated heats and have unproductive matings because her ovaries are still producing sex hormones, only she can't get pregnant... Do you understand that? Or do I have to draw you a picture? Ovary: Egg.>(fallopian tube)> | [Ligated fallopian tube] no egg---Uterus. Simple enough? Cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra complex can develop in intact queens and queens in whom the uterus was *not* removed -- as in queens with tubal ligation. Do you understand that? A tubal ligated cat also faces the anesthetic and surgical risks as does an ovariohysterectomized cat, but does not derive *any* of the benefits from those risks that a ovariohysterectomized cat does - such benefits as 0 risk of uterine cancers, 0 risk of ovarian cancers, 0 risk of cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra, 7x less risk of mammary cancer, 0 discomfort from repeated heat cycles for the rest of her life. Do you understand that? By suggesting tubal ligation as *YOU* did as an alternative to ovariohysterectomy (removal of the ovaries and uterus), *YOU'RE* placing the queen at high risk of developing uterine, ovarian, and mammary cancers, cystic endometrial hyperplasia which creates the ideal environment for the development of potentially *life-threatening* pyometra (puss-filled infection of the uterus). Do you understand that? I can't make it any clearer or simpler for you because I don't know how to get through to an idiot. > This is getting too confused for Usenet. *Anywhere* is too confusing for you. > Let me know when you get your page > up; Yeah... sure. I'll let you know. Now go away and wait to hear from me. > maybe you'll make it clearer there. It doesn't matter how clear I make it. You simply don't have the mental capacity to understand anything outside of your self-reinforcing delusions. My comments are at my site under > "Tech debate". You... "tech debate"??? ROTFLMAO! You don't even understand the female reproductive system -- and you're a female! How can you debate someting you know nothing about? LOL! > Please refrain from your careless answers that might confuse lurkers and > endanger their animals. ROTFL! You *are* really out of your mind! *YOU'RE* the only person suggesting tubal ligations and hysterectomies which can have serious life-threatening consequences in cats. I'm a strong proponent of ovariohysterectomy! > Lurkers, please do not assume a non-desexing alternative is safe from a > particular danger just because of something Phil hastily posted here. You're delusional and have a very serious comprehension problem. I'm a very strong *opponent* of your so-call "non-desexing alternatives" because of the risks, long-term unfavorable and dangerous consequences, and the lack of any benefits to the cat. Have you finally realized you've made an utter fool of yourself and now you're attempting to reverse your position? I'm confident that anyone reading your posts realizes you're a babbling idiot without the slightest clue of what you're talking about and should not be taken seriously. Ask > your vet! Ask about 'stump pyometra'. ...and tell them to ask their vets about cystic endometrial hyperplasia-pyometra complex, ovarian, uterine and mammary cancers; repeated heat cycles... And most importantly, anesthetic and surgical risks without *any* benefit for the cat -- Those are the consequences of your asinine"alternatives" to ovariohysterectomy. Now, go away and stop cluttering the newsgroup with your uninformed and misinformed nonsensical gibberish. I'll kick your rock a few times when my page is finished. > /snip/ > > I'll answer in more detail at my site. I am so not surprised that you live in California. (With apologies to our sane Californian contributors) I've always thought there was something to that rumor that there was a great tilt of the world that made all the NUTS roll to California. Meanwhile, I am sending everyone I know to your web site. I want you to be the next recipient of Usenet Kook of the Month. > > /snip/ > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > web site. I want you to be the next recipient of > Usenet Kook of the Month. *** Your a jerk, Mary. You stand pretty much alone because many posters and lurkers here don't agree with your 'queen bee' opinions, your catty acting meanness, and your really bad attitude. Oh and I forgot to mention your vocabulary. No way could you ever make it in sales. Ha. ML > > > /snip/ > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > ML All of this may be true. But at least I do not allow my cats to breed. That is the point. That is what we were talking about. You can do what you want, but if you allow your cat to breed, you are no friend of cats. Period. > > > > /snip/ > > > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > You can do what you want, but if you allow your cat to breed, > you are no friend of cats. Period. ***Yeah I know, I know. But Your still wrong. I Am a friend of cats, I've had several. And yes, I also know that you have a huge thing AGAINST any sort of...BREEDER. Sounds like it goes alot deeper than just with cats. Maybe you should seek counseling about it instead of attacking me and others here who have a wider range of opinion about it. HTH. ML > > > All of this may be true. But at least I do not allow my cats > > to breed. That is the point. That is what we were talking about. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ***Yeah I know, I know. But Your still wrong. I Am a friend of cats, I've > had several. Now this is priceless. Do you think that is all it takes? >And yes, I also know that you have a huge thing AGAINST any > sort of...BREEDER. Sounds like it goes alot deeper than just with cats. > Maybe you should seek counseling about it instead of attacking me and others > here who have a wider range of opinion about it. HTH. > > ML Um. Yes, I do have a "huge thing against" breeding. That has been the point of this thread. Uh, duhhhh? Not the brightest bulb in the pack, are you Slim? :) > > > > All of this may be true. But at least I do not allow my cats > > > to breed. That is the point. That is what we were talking about. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the point of this thread. Uh, duhhhh? Not the brightest bulb in the > pack, are you Slim? :) *** YAWN...Back to name calling are we, Mary? Hmmm. Lets see, I guess you forgot that you* changed the original name of this thread to "Breeders". That was YOU chump, Not me! Selective memory?? Or just plain forgetfulness? Maybe you should take a rest from your constant verbal hiccups that you try to pass on as knowledge and wisdom. Your posts are more tiresome and deflated than you realize. HTH. ML > > Um. Yes, I do have a "huge thing against" breeding. That has been > > the point of this thread. Uh, duhhhh? Not the brightest bulb in the > > pack, are you Slim? :) > > *** YAWN...Back to name calling are we, Mary? THINK about what you said. It's idiotic. Hmmm. Lets see, I guess you > forgot that you* changed the original name of this thread to "Breeders". > That was YOU chump, Not me! Selective memory?? Or just plain forgetfulness? > Maybe you should take a rest from your constant verbal hiccups that you try > to pass on as knowledge and wisdom. Your posts are more tiresome and > deflated than you realize. HTH. Okay. But the fact remains that it is cruel and wrong to breed your cat. > > > Um. Yes, I do have a "huge thing against" breeding. That has been > > > the point of this thread. Uh, duhhhh? Not the brightest bulb in the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Okay. But the fact remains that it is cruel and wrong to breed your cat. ***I have come to the conclusion that you are demented and have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. And unfortunately, there are too many people out there like you, Mary. Big, know-it-all's, B.S.ers, who get on everyone's nerves.. UNTIL someone come up to their face and says, "KNOCK IT OFF!" I am that person. ML "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote : > > Okay. But the fact remains that it is cruel and wrong to breed your cat. > > > ***I have come to the conclusion that you are demented and have no idea what > in the hell you are talking about. So you're saying that it is the right thing for you to do, to breed your cat? And unfortunately, there are too many > people out there like you, Mary. Big, know-it-all's, B.S.ers, who get on > everyone's nerves.. UNTIL someone come up to their face and says, "KNOCK IT > OFF!" I am that person. > > ML I see. Well, you've said it. Now then, back to the topic at hand. How are you proposing to demonstrate that breeding your cat is the right thing to do, when so many kittens need homes now? That is the issue. Everyone knows you CAN do it. Now tell us why it is the right thing to do, rather than spay your cat and encourage the people you would have given her kittens to to adopt a stray? > "Slimpickins" <Slim@work.com> wrote : > > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the people you would have given her kittens to to > adopt a stray? ***You want to finally get back on topic?! What topic? The main issue is my right to chose what I deem right and correct, not you or others, Mary. That is fine if you chose to Always adopt from the shelter. Fine. But I am not going to have a hissy fit, start immediate name calling, and demand that you and everyone else adopt only animals in the shelter, or from your breeding relatives, Whomever. NEWSFLASH: You need to be able to accept that others don't see everything YOUR way. Got It? And if others do see things differently, and they will, then your name-calling and expletives does not tend to alien others to you, nor will it gain you any friends, FWIW. ML >> ...UNTIL someone come up to their face and says, "KNOCK > > IT [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ***You want to finally get back on topic?! What topic? The main issue is my > right to chose what I deem right and correct, not you or others, Mary. So, you are saying that you cannot justify breeding your cat. I must conclude that you know it is wrong and you want to do it anyway. Why didn't you say so. There are many, many people just like you. Just don't expect people who care about cats to pretend that breeding yours is just fine. It is not. And it won't be no matter how loudly you scream or how many hysterical posts you make. > ***Yeah I know, I know. But Your still wrong. I Am a friend of cats, I've > had several. And yes, I also know that you have a huge thing AGAINST any > sort of...BREEDER. Sounds like it goes alot deeper than just with cats. > Maybe you should seek counseling about it instead of attacking me and > others > here who have a wider range of opinion about it. HTH. I think you are pretty much alone here thinking it's OK to breed your cat. Just because you have had cats in the past doesn't mean you are a friend to cats. What happened to the other kitten that wasn't as wonderful as Dove? What did you do with him or her? Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > I think you are pretty much alone here thinking it's OK to breed > your cat. Just because you have had cats in the past doesn't > mean you are a friend to cats. What happened to the other > kitten that wasn't as wonderful as Dove? What did you do with > him or her? I asked that a while back but didn't get an answer. That bugs me. The same with that Larry fella who kept posting here. It bugged me because I read all of his kitten troubles in r.p.cats. Then he posts here and only had 3 cats instead of the 4 he should have had. I hate suspence like that. :( SignatureCheryl > I asked that a while back but didn't get an answer. That bugs me. The > same with that Larry fella who kept posting here. It bugged me > because I read all of his kitten troubles in r.p.cats. Then he posts > here and only had 3 cats instead of the 4 he should have had. I hate > suspence like that. :( I do too, esp when I post that I can help find these cats/kittens new homes and I get no response. I always wonder what happened to the missing cats. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > ***Yeah I know, I know. But Your still wrong. I Am a friend of cats, I've > > had several. And yes, I also know that you have a huge thing AGAINST any [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cats. What happened to the other kitten that wasn't as wonderful as Dove? > What did you do with him or her? Ahh, gad, there was another kitten?? > > > ***Yeah I know, I know. But Your still wrong. I Am a friend of cats, > I've [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ahh, gad, there was another kitten?? **Yes there was. At least Kelly R has a good memory and obviously reads my posts here. But since you, Mary, are so forgetful and post about one thousand posts here a day, I guess for your sake, it's hard to keep track. His name was Jesse and just one month ago I finally placed him in an approved home. Not that it's any of your business. ML > > Ahh, gad, there was another kitten?? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > His name was Jesse and just one month ago I finally placed him in an > approved home. Not that it's any of your business. An "approved home." Mmm hmmm. > > > Ahh, gad, there was another kitten?? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > An "approved home." Mmm hmmm. ***Mmmmm. Yeah. I actually approved the home and got paper work done before adopting him. More than you'd' do, I'm sure. Oh You, Miss know-it-all who has warped views about of life and others, and probably torments the livin' hell out of those in her immediate life. Good thing I'm not around. ML > *** Your a jerk, Mary. You stand pretty much alone because many posters > and > lurkers here don't agree with your 'queen bee' opinions, your catty acting > meanness, and your really bad attitude. Oh and I forgot to mention your > vocabulary. No way could you ever make it in sales. Ha. Actually, I agree with Mary on a lot of issues, although we have had our arguments in the past over language and style of posting. When it comes to spay/neuter and the welfare of cats, it brings me to swearing, too. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG On Thu 03 Feb 2005 03:31:28p, Mary wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:ASvMd.53669$K72.6576562 @twister.southeast.rr.com): > Meanwhile, I am sending everyone I know to your > web site. I want you to be the next recipient of > Usenet Kook of the Month. LOL Those that vote for KOTM don't care about issues like this. You're a more likely candidate than Margaret is. ;) SignatureCheryl > On Thu 03 Feb 2005 03:31:28p, Mary wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:ASvMd.53669$K72.6576562 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > LOL Those that vote for KOTM don't care about issues like this. > You're a more likely candidate than Margaret is. ;) Right. :) > As for your site, please don't quote me. Everyone's site and usenet posts > are automatically protected by copyright and can be quoted only with > permission. I don't mind a debate, but I don't want outdated versions of > my > words floating around. Then why is it OK for you to quote people at your site? And why do you poach questions from this ng and post them on your idiotic site and answer them, like someone asked for your "expert" opinion? Another problem with your arguments: You are basing everything on the assumption that it is OK for cats to be outdoors. This is not true in many areas of the US. Stop giving out dangerous "advice". I agree with Phil. FOAD. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > > As for your site, please don't quote me. Everyone's site and usenet posts are automatically protected by copyright and can be quoted only with permission. I don't mind a debate, but I don't want outdated versions of my words floating around. > Then why is it OK for you to quote people at your site? What quotes do you mean (other than one I just put up from Phil, since he seems to think no permission is needed?) > And why do you > poach questions from this ng and post them on your idiotic site and ans |
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