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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / February 2005Mingy's Second Trip to the Hospital
I'm going to try to type up what transpired, but my daughter want the computer. First, you know how folks here have spoken of how little vets know about nutrition? I had a good lesson in that. Remember I was initially given a bag of the dry Hill's c/d. I asked about dry vs. wet and the vet preferred dried--even though Mingy's urine needs to be diluted. Well, today when I called the hospital, the vet I spoke with mentioned the importance of canned food. I asked about the s/d, and she said it was to dissolve stones, not crystals. Later, I got another vet at the hospital, and he gave us canned c/d, s/d and some Eukanuba. (One can of each, which isn't going to tell me much.) He said the s/d was "better quality" then the c/d!!!! Nothing about dissolving the crystals, nothing about using s/d first..... They all did agree that the important thing is that Mingy eat and drink. He did not think Mingy was blocked, but thinks he is having bladder spasms. He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to be given twice a day. We have failed at our first effort, so I think I'll get a pill popper tomorrow. He also had someone teach me to do subcutaneous injections of fluid, so at least Mingy will be producing more urine. I do wonder how they will ever decide they are thirsty and want to drink if they are receiving this??????????? Oh, the culture came back, and it was negative for bacteria. FWIW, Vet #2, who said s/d was for stones, not crystals, also said that only stones have oxalate interiors. I gather, then, that in their opinion, a quick look in the microscope is sufficient. I guess I have to get off, but I will say at least I'm feeling better for a little while anyway (even though a lot of this seemed rather specious), and at least Mingy is here.  SignatureJean B. >He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to >be given twice a day. The dose of Dibenzyline for cats is .25 mg per pound *once* per day or 12 mg per pound twice per day. It should also be given with food. The dose your vet prescribed is an overdose (unless your cat is 20 lbs) which can result in low blood pressure, increased heart rate, vomiting, lethargy and shock. I'm really starting to question the competency of some of the vets at this clinic. Also, regarding the "explanation" for what happened to Mingy's claw, I would absolutely *not* accept that and would go straight to the top and demand not only an explanation, but some sort of compensation as that is inexcusable. In the meantime, take a quick run over to amazon.con and purchase this book (it's a great resource and could potentially save your cats life): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553579894/qid=1106362249/sr=8-1/r ef=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4314236-5302404?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray I wrote: >The dose of Dibenzyline for cats is .25 >mg per pound *once* per day or 12 mg >per pound twice per day. That should read .12 Megan- who missed a period... ;-) Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray On Thu 27 Jan 2005 10:48:23p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:29250-41F9B607-335@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net): > I wrote: >>The dose of Dibenzyline for cats is .25 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Megan- who missed a period... ;-) lmao SignatureCheryl > >He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to > >be given twice a day. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - W.H. Murray Oh crud! I am glad we failed in administering this last night. Mingy weighed ten pounds before all this started and must weigh less now. :-( And the bottle is in front of me, and that is what it says. And nothing about food. Here my first impression of this place was good, and now it has dropped precipitously. I am going to have as bad an opinion of vets as I fo of doctors. :-( Still, I need to find a place for emergencies--and after-hours ones at that. More :-( SignatureJean B. >Oh crud! I am glad we failed in >administering this last night. Mingy >weighed ten pounds before all this started >and must weigh less now. :-( If he weighs a little less than 10 pounds you should still be ok to give him a 2.5 mg dose of this medication. Just make sure to only give it *once* a day. http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pilling_a_cat.html Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > If he weighs a little less than 10 pounds you should still be ok to give > him a 2.5 mg dose of this medication. Just make sure to only give it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Megan I was thinking of doing that, for a variety of reasons. The vet said I could cut back to 1 dose, but I would prefer not to have him experience side effects before I decide to do that. SignatureJean B. > Oh crud! I am glad we failed in administering this last night. > Mingy weighed ten pounds before all this started and must weigh [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still, I need to find a place for emergencies--and after-hours > ones at that. More :-( One of the crucial factors in my choice of homes were their proximity to vets and 24-hour emergency clinics. There are 3, 24-hour emergency clinics within 10 and 20 minutes - including the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan -- and this is the suburbs of NJ. I don't think I'll ever live more than 20 minutes from AMC - I'd be too nervous. Btw, not to make matters worse, but your vet run a CBC and a chemscreen on Mingy? Many obstructed cats are azotemic (increased BUN/Creatinine) and some are also hyperkalemic from not urinating and eliminating waste products. Azotemia can certainly make a cat feel queasy and not much like eating. Fluid therapy should bring on diuresis which should flush waste products and toxins from his system. Sometimes it can take 3 or days to completely clear his system. If he's not eating voluntarily by tonight, I'd puree up some c/d or s/d if you located some with some warm water and syringe feed him. I'm starting to worry about dehydration as well as complicating liver problems from not eating. At this point, you might to ask a (different) vet about canned kitten food or a/d and an acidifier. Hang in there. Phil > > Oh crud! I am glad we failed in administering this last night. > > Mingy weighed ten pounds before all this started and must weigh [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Phil Thanks again, Phil. I'll go through the list of tests on the bill and see whether the above-mentioned tests were run. The good news is that Mingy did eat more yesterday. Not as much as he was eating, but more. (How much does a cat have to eat to avoid the dreaded liver problems?) He was also peeing pretty well, thanks to the subcutaneous injection. I hope these trends continue! Today, I'll research other 24/7 options near here. Maybe I'll even drive to some of them to see how fast I can get there. Now that I am aware of these issues, having led a sheltered life before than, I need to satisfy myself that I can get Mingy somewhere quickly--and somewhere where he will not emerge sans another claw. SignatureJean B. > Thanks again, Phil. I'll go through the list of tests on the bill > and see whether the above-mentioned tests were run. The good news [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > somewhere quickly--and somewhere where he will not emerge sans > another claw. I haven't read all the posts - can't keep my eyes open. How's Mingy doing today? Phil > > Thanks again, Phil. I'll go through the list of tests on the bill > > and see whether the above-mentioned tests were run. The good news [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Phil He ate a fair amount yesterday--both wet and dried food (have to get him off the latter). And I heard him drinking THREE times during the night, which was music to my ears. (I now have a cup of water for him in the bedroom, and he seems to like that location--hops off the bed for a drink, and hops back up again.) Now my main concern is whether or not he will reblock before I can get him segued into a new diet, whatever that turns out to be. I do have one more question (that I can think of right now): what is the current thinking re fish and seafood and the relationship to struvite crystals/blockage? Oh, another one, but I can look this up, so it is more of a musing. Mingy liked Lactaid, which he would drink on very rare occasions. I have now read he must NOT drink milk because of its high mineral content. I wonder whether cream is lower and hence acceptable as a daily treat? SignatureJean B. >>> Thanks again, Phil. I'll go through the list of tests on the bill >>> and see whether the above-mentioned tests were run. The good news [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > high mineral content. I wonder whether cream is lower and hence > acceptable as a daily treat? My vet told me NO MORE FISH for Grant after his blockage. If its in the first few ingredients it is too much. Too many minerals. > My vet told me NO MORE FISH for Grant after his blockage. If its in the > first few ingredients it is too much. Too many minerals. Oh well. Just wondered whether this was something that Vets et al. disagreed about. I thought not. Now I am wondering why phosphorous levels aren't listed for most cat foods. Also, does the canned food that you are feeding come in in the .04-.10 percent range for magnesium? Seems like most of the premium foods say max. .025 percent. SignatureJean B. > > I haven't read all the posts - can't keep my eyes open. How's Mingy doing > > today? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is the current thinking re fish and seafood and the relationship > to struvite crystals/blockage? I haven't seen or heard of any peer-reviewed studies that have found a link between a particular ingredient and struvite (other than magnesium at high urine pH). Although I have read a study that implied a link between fish or liver and giblets canned food and hyperthyroidism. "cats that preferred fish or liver and giblets flavors of canned cat food had an increased risk. ("Evaluation of dietary and environmental risk factors for hyperthyroidism in cats" J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Sep 15;217(6):853-6 ). A couple of other studies were not as specific and just mentioned "canned food" and "pop-top canned food". > Oh, another one, but I can look this up, so it is more of a > musing. Mingy liked Lactaid, which he would drink on very rare > occasions. I have now read he must NOT drink milk because of its > high mineral content. I wonder whether cream is lower and hence > acceptable as a daily treat? I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Cream (as in Half & Half) doesn't contain enough free water to do any good and also contains 40 kcal/fl. oz..and only 0.89 g of protein. 40 kcals are about 25% of his daily energy needs. This may cause him to eat less food by satisfying his energy needs and therefore reaching satiety before his nutrient needs are met. Cats generally eat to meet their energy needs - when energy needs are met, they stop eating - unless their satiety cues are overridden by exceptionally palatable diets or behaviorial factors. All other nutrients must be in the diet in the right proportions so his nutrient needs are met before his energy needs and reaching satiety. Thus, I think cream will cause him to eat less food. I've been thinking of ways that you could get more water into him. You might want to try water fountains. Several people have posted about their successes in stimulating their cats to drink more (cats aren't naturally big drinkers). I found these three in Foster & Smith's catalog http://www.maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Water_Fountains.jpg You might want to look for them in Petsmart and Petco. Keep the receipt and return them if they don't help. Since you don't have the time to experiment, I'd buy all three and keep the one he likes the best and return the others. You'll probably hate me if he uses all three! ;-) Some cats also like to drink from the shower when you're finished. So you might want to try running the shower for a few minutes and see if that helps. If your shower is separate from your tub, try running a little water in the tub to create a little puddle by the drain leaving the other end dry so he can get to the puddle without getting his paws wet. Cats generally don't like to walk in water. You could also try letting your kitchen or bathroom faucet drip into a bowl that's wide enough so his whiskers don't touch the sides. This may sound strange, but I've known cats who ate and drank very little *only* because they didn't like their whiskers touching the sides of the bowl! I use 2 1/2 inch deep by 10" wide ceramic water bowls that I picked up in K-Mart for $8.00. As a last resort - which is right about now - you might want to try Hill's Mixit. . http://tinyurl.com/6omwh Its a gravy-style flavor enhancer that's used for switching cats to canned food. I remember you mentioning that Mingy likes to lick the gravy but left the chunks - so I think he'll really go for this stuff. Although Mixit shouldn't be used as the sole food, it contains 50% protein (DMB) - about 11 grams/100 kcal - which ain't bad, and only 0.1% fiber (as fed; 0.4% DMB) which means the fiber won't be soaking up the water in his intestines and getting lost to fecal moisture. Mixit might also help him break his dry food preference (addiction) and make the transition to canned food easier and quicker. You're not supposed to combine s/d & c/d with other foods - but I think this will get him eating it. Let me know how it goes. Good luck. Phil > > I haven't seen or heard of any peer-reviewed studies that have found a link [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Phil Lots of good info there--including the Mixit, which I had not heard of. Also, the info re calories and cream makes sense. I did get Mingy a Fresh Flow fountain, but maybe he would prefer the Drinkwell. He used to like drinking water from the faucet--and standing under a dripping faucet. I sense another trip to some pet stores in my immediate future! Thanks again! SignatureJean B. > (How much does a cat have to eat to avoid the > dreaded liver problems?) Jean, first, I'm impressed with all of your posts and your questions and just how much you love Mingy. I've been reading your threads from work, but can't post from there. My home internet has been down for a couple of days, and now that it's back I can't find all the posts I wanted to reply to! I have some experience with hepatic lipidosis, and while its possible for some cats to start having liver function imparement soon after stopping eating, in my own experience with Shadow, it took a while. His problems were probably a combination of things. He didn't eat for a month. This was before I knew what I know now. I resorted to syringe feeding him before I knew he had IBD. Vets couldn't seem to diagnose his problem. His bloodwork was totally normal. I syringed fed him about 2oz each night when I discovered he hadn't eaten all day. Come to find out, that wasn't near enough. I was also fostering for the local SPCA at the time, and had taken him to the clinic for a steroid shot to boost his appetite. A perk for fostering, I could bring in my own cats. I was extremely niave about cats then. Shadow's first sign was nausea. Only, it didn't look like nausea. He didn't vomit because he didn't eat. I can remember him sticking his tongue out at me when I asked him if he wanted to eat. (*eat* was a word in his vocabulary) I later discovered this was his way of licking up drool. He was also obsessed with the kitchen. He wanted to eat all the time. Problem was that when I gave him food, he'd sniff it and stick his tongue out again and walk away. Then the next time I went to the kitchen he'd follow me in and wanted to eat again. Only, he *wouldn't* eat. Again, his blood work was perfect throughout this. Steroid shot at the SPCA clinic did in fact make him eat. For about 2 weeks. That through the vet off because if it was hepatic lipidosis, steroids wouldn't help him want to eat. BUT, IBD *does* respond to steroids. It took an ultrasound and a biopsy to discover that his problem was *both* hepatic lipidosis and IBD. By this time, his liver values showed the damage to his liver. High liver values - AlkPh, bilirubin, and another that I can't remember now. So, after this long story, for Shadow who was overweight (common for cats who get hepatic lipidosis) it took a while for physical blood proof, but nausea is probably what started the domino effect that made him not want to eat, making his liver worse. SignatureCheryl > > (How much does a cat have to eat to avoid the > > dreaded liver problems?) [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > -- > Cheryl Something else for me to be cognizant of. Thank you Cheryl. I'm going to have to start a folder/folders on Mingy's health I think, since my memory is poor. I guess we all start from ground zero in our knowledge of cats. I at least have the benefit hearing from folks here and trying to absorb what they have learned. I do find myself wishing Mingy was more cooperative. I guess I brought part of this on myself, though, by catering to his every (cute) whim. There comes a time, though, when many of us have to stop doing that. By that time, our babies are used to having things their own way/being cats! Today I can say Mingy is drinking more (I think). I have seen him at the new fountain, playing and then drinking, and I have seem him with water on his chin, having just drunk, several times. Now I have some cut up wet food out for him with some dry food. We shall see what he does with it. SignatureJean B. > I'm > going to have to start a folder/folders on Mingy's health I > think, since my memory is poor. > > I guess we all start from ground zero in our knowledge of cats. Very true! > I at least have the benefit hearing from folks here and trying > to absorb what they have learned. Same here. Even subjects that aren't an issue to me at the time they're posted, I try to keep in mind for future reference. I do find myself wishing > Mingy was more cooperative. HA!! As if! ;) I guess I brought part of this on > myself, though, by catering to his every (cute) whim. There > comes a time, though, when many of us have to stop doing that. > By that time, our babies are used to having things their own > way/being cats! But they're too hard to resist. I think the better way is to find a compromise. Spoil 'em with toys and attention. Draw the line at giving in to food whims. I am *so* guilty of that. > Today I can say Mingy is drinking more (I think). I have seen > him at the new fountain, playing and then drinking, and I have > seem him with water on his chin, having just drunk, several > times. Now I have some cut up wet food out for him with some > dry food. We shall see what he does with it. All good signs! I hope a couple of days later since you posted that, he's still improving. SignatureCheryl > Thanks again, Phil. I'll go through the list of tests on the bill > and see whether the above-mentioned tests were run. Jean, ignore this post. I can't get rid of it just this post. LOL A kitty walked across my keyboard and hit some key, and now this post has a wierd icon and even when I "catch up", this message keeps coming back. I just wondered if I reply to it if it'll get rid of it. Skritches to Mingy. :) SignatureCheryl >>He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to be given twice a day. > > The dose of Dibenzyline for cats is .25 mg per pound *once* per day or 12 mg > per pound twice per day. It should also be given with food. The dose your For the archives, that should be 0.25 and 0.12, right? not 12? Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > >>He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to be given twice a day. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* Isn't it great that we have such knowledgeable folks here! I am VERY grateful.............. SignatureJean B. >> >>He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to be given twice a day. >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Isn't it great that we have such knowledgeable folks here! I am VERY > grateful.............. I'm not knowledgeable ... I just guessed that you would want to cut the dosage in half if you were feeding twice as often, rather than make the dose 48 times as big *grin* Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > For the archives, that should be 0.25 and 0.12, right? not 12? These are the dosing schedules from the two leading veterinary drug manuals used my most vets, hospitals and veterinary universities:: Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook Treatment of detrusor areflexia: Cats: a) 2.5 - 7.5 mg/cat PO once to twice daily (Osborne, Kruger et al. 2000) b) 1.25 - 7.5 mg (total dose) PO q 12-24h, (Lane 2000) Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs Cats: 2.5 mg/cat, q8-12h, or 0.5 mg/kg, q12h, PO. In cats, doses as high as 0.5 mg/kg, IV, have been used to relax urethral smooth muscle. Phil > He also had someone teach me to do subcutaneous injections of > fluid, so at least Mingy will be producing more urine. I do > wonder how they will ever decide they are thirsty and want to > drink if they are receiving this??????????? Don't worry too much, they don't. The subQ fluids are a substitute for drinking. Sort of like a diet of all canned food is sometimes also a substitute for drinking water (natural). Glad you're communicating with the vet(s) even if its frustrating. The problem I keep having is trying to convey what I've read vs. the vets education and/or beliefs, and short of finding another vet just because we disagree about food, I tend to try to keep my own thoughts on this based on my own research. When she tried to tell me to feed dry food to bulk up the diet to "cure" diarrhea, I knew I needed to keep to my own beliefs (that dry food is harder on the stomach than canned. Some vets think a wet runny food causes wet runny stools ... automatically). SignatureCheryl > > Don't worry too much, they don't. The subQ fluids are a substitute [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Cheryl But don't you run into a problem if you need prescription foods of some ilk? Can you just walk into the vet's office and say I want some of this type? And can one order such stuff online? I know I can order the brands not found in the vet's office online, and now that I have heard such vastly different claims from the vets, I am more inclined to do that. SignatureJean B. Jean B. As far as requesting a certain food, your vet should certainly be open to discuss your concerns and accomodate you and your cat. Canned vs. dry should be left to your discretion. Once the vet has offered his/her professional opinion, you know your cat best and you should ultimately decide what Mingy eats. You know that canned is much better for the urinary tract so I would insist on that. As for s/d vs. c/d, your vet is misinformed if he/she believes s/d is only to dissolve stones. I would print the page at the link below and bring it to your vet. It clearly states that s/d is for the dissolution of crystals and stones. http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id =845524441763385&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024938&bmUID=1106923589281&bmLo cale=en_CA If your vet is at all professional he/she will be eager to get new information and be willing to admit that he/she doesn't know everything. My Noel has had a particularly tough time with FLUTD (he had 3 blockages in 3 months despite vigilant care) and my vet and I developed a great working relationship in which we both did our research and shared information. My vet was open to my participation in Noel's care and now I think together we managed to resolve his problem by tailoring his treatment to his individual needs and staying current in our research. Sometimes vets are working with only the information that was available when they trained - if that was many years ago new developments have occured and what was the standard of care years ago is outdated and insufficient in light of advancements in knowledge. Any responsible vet (in my opinion) must stay current in their research and be open to well researched information presented by their client's owners. I understand how difficult it is to find a vet that you trust and is availble for emergencies. Please don't feel that you can't present information to your vet and participate in Mingy's care. I hope you work things out with your vet so that you can feel assured that he is doing the right thing for Mingy. Paws up to you for being so dedicated to Mingy's care. Sorry for the rant - I just feel very passionately that vets (like anyone else) should be willing to do their research and be open to criticism and suggestions. If their goal is to take care of the cat's best interests, they should be grateful that an owner is doing his/her research. > But don't you run into a problem if you need prescription foods > of some ilk? Can you just walk into the vet's office and say I > want some of this type? Yes, you can ask. I've asked for AD and gotten it, mostly just to keep on-hand for emergencies. Jean, I've never had a cat with crystals, so please don't take my answer and apply it to Mingy's problems. I'm just saying that I don't take a vets prescription of food at face value - I do research. And can one order such stuff online? I know I > can order the brands not found in the vet's office online, and > now that I have heard such vastly different claims from the > vets, I am more inclined to do that. The only prescription diet I've ever had to buy was Hill's; a cat with megacolon was prescribed RD, and one with IBD was prescribed ID. Neither worked. In fact for both cats, no diet prescribed or bought in a pet food store worked. This could be part of my reason for skeptisism when it comes to prescription diets. I'm simply adding some input. I wish the best for Mingy and you do what you have to do. SignatureCheryl > I'm going to try to type up what transpired, but my daughter want > the computer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > vs. wet and the vet preferred dried--even though Mingy's urine > needs to be diluted. He's an old school "dry vet". He probably thinks its easier to get a cat to eat a new dry food than switch to canned. He also probably thinks the dry is just a efficacious as the canned because they're similarly formulated - completely ignoring the fact that increased water intake and turnover are crucial to cyrstal management and prevention. > Well, today when I called the hospital, the vet I spoke with > mentioned the importance of canned food. I asked about the s/d, > and she said it was to dissolve stones, not crystals. Nonsense! From Hill's: "Prescripton Diet s/d has low levels of magnesium and produces an acid urine pH to aid in the management of struvite crystals and stones." Later, I > got another vet at the hospital, and he gave us canned c/d, s/d > and some Eukanuba. (One can of each, which isn't going to tell me > much.) He said the s/d was "better quality" then the c/d!!!! > Nothing about dissolving the crystals, nothing about using s/d > first..... Scary, isn't it? After reading so much about mediocre and just plain incompetent vets, I'm so thankful I have a good vet that I feel like adding a tip to my vet's bill! > They all did agree that the important thing is that Mingy eat and > drink. At least they got that right.... > He did not think Mingy was blocked, but thinks he is having > bladder spasms. He prescribed 2.5 mg of Dibenzyline to be given > twice a day. We have failed at our first effort, so I think I'll > get a pill popper tomorrow. There are two dosing protocols for Dibenzyline (phenoxybenzamine HCL) for the treatment of detrusor areflexia. If you'd like, I'll send you the drug monographs from the two most current veterinary drug manuals. 1. 2.5 - 7.5 mg/cat PO once to twice daily; (Osborne) 2. 1.25 - 7.5 mg (total dose) PO q 12-24h; (Lane) The first protocol is the recommendation of Carl Osborne, the head of the Minnesota Urolith Center. He's done more research in feline urinary system disorders than anyone else in the country - if not the world. Most veterinary universities and hospitals send crystals, uroliths and plugs to MUC for analysis since they perform quantitative mineral analysis and have the most state-of-the-art equipment. In fact, that's where your vet should have sent the crystals they retrieved from Mingy for analysis. . > He also had someone teach me to do subcutaneous injections of > fluid, so at least Mingy will be producing more urine. I do > wonder how they will ever decide they are thirsty and want to > drink if they are receiving this??????????? You can buy fluids (Lactated Ringers Solution) in 500 ml bags by the case (24) for about $35.00 ($1.50/bag). That's probably cheaper than your vet charges you for 2, 1000 ml bags! I perfer to use the 500 ml bags and throw the unused portion, venoset and needle away after each treatment. > Oh, the culture came back, and it was negative for bacteria. > FWIW, Vet #2, who said s/d was for stones, not crystals, also said > that only stones have oxalate interiors. Stones (uroliths) start out as crystals... Next time you see him, ask him why struvite crystals are often found in acidic urine... Too many vets automatically assume all crystals are struvite or all struvite. Better yet, find a new vet. I gather, then, that in > their opinion, a quick look in the microscope is sufficient. That's a recipe for disaster. Microscopic exam gives only a tentative evaluation of crystal/urolith composition. There are variables that affect the formation, growth, and dissolution of the crystals that can alter their appearance. MUC uses optical crystallography, infrared spectrophotometry, thermal analysis, x-ray diffraction, electron microprobe analysis, or a combination of these for a definitive analysis of crystal composition. MUC analyzes the crystal/urolith *layer by layer* starting with the nucleus! > I guess I have to get off, but I will say at least I'm feeling > better for a little while anyway (even though a lot of this seemed > rather specious), and at least Mingy is here. I hate to say it but I'm getting a little nervous about your vet's treatment plan. I also hope he didn't damage Mingy's urethra during catheterization. Phil
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