 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue CatKB.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / February 2005Some Initial Jottings Re Struvite Crystals + Food
I have started going back over the posts made on this topic and thought I would post some of my jottings here for comment and for other people's benefit. Food Composition recommended ranges: phosphorous 0.5-0.9 sodium 0.2-0.6* magnesium 0.04-0.10 Hill's s/d: phosphorous 0.52 sodium 0.86* magnesium 0.041 *Moderate sodium is not a problem for cats with struvite crystals (but IS a problem for cats with oxalate crystals) What We Want to Achieve: Urine pH needs to be between 6.2 and 6.3 or 6.4 for maintenance. Needs to be about 6.0 to dissolve crystals that are already present. BUT note that very acidic diets can promote calcium oxalate crystals and uroliths, which are much more dangerous than struvite crystals. Recommended Diet and Questions: Canned food seems to be better than dried, since cats who eat canned food have much more dilute urine. s/d is for temporary feeding only, and dissolves the crystals. How frequently should a cat be monitored on s/d? c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for long-term prevention and maintenance. How frequently does a cat on c/d need to be monitored? Note: there is no problem transitioning from s/d to c/d. Liquid intake is important. Frequent urination is good because particles are less likely to form crystals; it may also decrease the incidence of bladder infections. Does One Want to Use Hill's (esp. for life)?: There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even though cats are carnivores, and this seems odd), why does Hill's use such low-quality meat? I have not seen any denial of that, and it would be nice if the meat in the formulas was human-grade and not "floor sweepings". Adding Other Food in Addition to the Hill's: Adding some other canned food may negate the benefits of the prescription diet. Possible Options Other than Hill's (for maintenance): NOTE: I have not looked into these yet, these are just notes! Abady Alternatives Eukanoba low pH/s? IVD Prescription Food Medi-cal Preventative Formula Science Diet Light Waltham Feline Urinary SO 30 Wysong Uretic Formula Other Possible Approaches: Remember: these are notes; I was trying to jot down both sides! Amitryptyline, which would decrease pain associated with urination and allow cat to urinate more easily (if not plug). Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the chewable type. BUT cats don't like it and it may be dangerous to do this, and some question whether or not that actually acidifies the urine. Cranberry-Blueberry extract. Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat. BUT this can cause methemoglobinemia, hemolytic anemia, etc. What We Need to Avoid: Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate the ingestion of calcium and phosphorous, which correlate with kidney failure. (But meat-based diets acidify the urine, and struvite commonly forms in alkaline urine and dissolves in acidic urine, soooooooo????). Grazing. Each time the cat eats, his/her urine becomes more alkaline. (Even with s/d and c/d?) Feed two times a day. (How to change this????) Other Causes Besides Alkaline Urine: Bacterial Infection. If there is bacteria inside the crystals, that is almost always what has initiated the crystal formation. Crystals need to be dissolved, but getting rid of the infection (UTI) will [generally?] get rid of the problem. This seems like a relatively benign scenario. (???)  SignatureJean B. >What We Need to Avoid: >Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate >the ingestion of calcium and phosphorous, >which correlate with kidney failure. Cats are carnivores. They are meant to eat a protein and fat rich diet. There is no evidence that phosphorus causes kidney failure (only that it can be harmful to cats that *already have* kidney failure) although our resident Hill's employee repeatedly posts in such a way as to deceive people into thinking it does. (His next effort is to promote the idea that protein causes hyperthyroidism.) If you feed your cat a diet as close as possible to what it is meant to eat (high quality canned food instead of what basically amounts to cereal with a little meat thrown in) it is unlikely you'd be having to ask all these questions. To make it easy for you, Wellness canned is an excellent food for long term maintenance and promotes a urine ph of 6.1-6.4. There is no reason (other than lining your vets pocket) why your cat should have to be on a low quality prescription food "for life." I have a cat that was hospitalized twice for blockage and emergency surgery several years ago. Completely eliminating dry food and putting him on Wellness canned has eliminated any recurrences. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >What We Need to Avoid: > >Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > - W.H. Murray Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we have to get rid of the crystals totally first, if he has formed more. It is, indeed, the maintenance diet that I am most concerned about. Did your cat have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals? SignatureJean B. >Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we >have to get rid of the crystals totally first, >if he has formed more. True. However, if he refuses to eat the prescription diet you'll need to find an alternative. I had very good luck in the past using Methioform tablets, which is a prescription urinary acidifier, and Wellness canned along with doing at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. I refuse to use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have always found alternatives that work just as well. Food for my cats is one area where I absolutely will not compromise, and I've seen a huge decrease in the number of vet visits I've had to make since I went to super premium canned food several years ago. This is especially important to me as I have a very high population of senior cats over the age of 11 and having several get sick at once could be financially catastrophic. Fortunately, feeding high quality canned is paying off in spades and without exception my cats so far have perfect bloodwork with no sign of kidney issues or other age related disease you'd expect to start seeing in cats that are 11-14 years old. >It is, indeed, the maintenance diet that I >am most concerned about. Did your cat >have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals? Struvite. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we > >have to get rid of the crystals totally first, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have > always found alternatives that work just as well. Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we are going to do 10 mls--at least think it is mls. Have to look at the bag of solution. > Food for my cats is one area where I absolutely will not compromise, and > I've seen a huge decrease in the number of vet visits I've had to make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bloodwork with no sign of kidney issues or other age related disease > you'd expect to start seeing in cats that are 11-14 years old. That's great, and I will surely look into all of this more thoroughly after we are over the hump. I did get three different types of food. More on that later. > >It is, indeed, the maintenance diet that I > >am most concerned about. Did your cat > >have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals? > > Struvite. Okay. That's what Mingy has............. Jean B. >Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we >are going to do 10 mls--at least think it is >mls. Have to look at the bag of solution. If your vet recommended 10 mls you need to find a new vet, but I'm guessing you just misunderstood. :-) A bag of fluids contains 1000 mls of fluid and is marked at 100 ml intervals so I doubt you'd even be able to measure 10 mls. 100 mls is not much at all and is considered a "maintenance" dose. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we > >are going to do 10 mls--at least think it is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Megan Probably not mls--didn't check. I remember the tech said 10, but she may very well have said that when it is actually 100. Yes, the bag is marked is marked for 10 doses, so I think we are actually speaking about the same amount.... SignatureJean B. >From: "Jean B." jbxyz@rcn.com >> True. However, if he refuses to eat the prescription diet you'll need to >> find an alternative. I had very good luck in the past using Methioform >> tablets, which is a prescription urinary acidifier, and Wellness canned >> along with doing at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. I refuse to >> use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have >> always found alternatives that work just as well. Unfortunately that's just not true. Prescripion foods are NOT "low-quality crap". Do you have anything to back that up or are you going to continue to make unsubstaniated comments and then duck and dodge when questioned? It sure sounds like sour grapes coming from you since you must be one of these washed-out techs that couldn't hack it in the real world? >>From: "Jean B." jbxyz@rcn.com > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >sounds like sour grapes coming from you since you must be one of these >washed-out techs that couldn't hack it in the real world? Gee, and this coming from someone who continually hacks at people for making personal attacks on you or Steve Crane instead of just sticking to the points of the arguments. I have your posts archived on my machine where you make that statement, care for me to post them against the post I'm quoting here? eq >>>From: "Jean B." jbxyz@rcn.com >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >eq I didn't think so. Post referenced archived for future use....... eq And I'm still waiting for you to tell us about that crystal ball you have which lets you know WHICH cat will end up with renal failure. Since there is not one whit worth of POSITIVE news in feeding high phos foods - why on earth take the risk in face of one of the most common killers of cats? It simply makes no sense whatsoever. As for hyperthyroid issues, the patents are published, the clinical trials and studies are submitted to peer reviewed journals and slated for publication. Read 'em and weep when they get here later this year. Promoting a food which has never been subjected to any clincial trial for struvites or any other disease is a risk. Urolith formation and urinary crystals are MUCH more complicated than just urine pH. Assuming that any food which generates a urine pH in the right range will work is a huge error. Has the food ever been subjected to APR (Activity Product Ratio) studies? Nope. Has the food ever been subjected to any clinical trial of any kind? Nope. Life is full of risks, some we understand and some we don't. The ones for which we have factual data and good peer reviewed published studies, allow us to make logical prudent decisions. The issue of excess phosphorus in a diet is a proven risk, well documented and well understood. Everyone makes choices to ignore certain risks. Sometimes the choice is between one risk versus another. Sometimes taking the risk is just plain foolish, because there is no positive advantage to taking the risk. Feeding excessive phos in a diet is one of those. >From: "Steve Crane" eodemolay@cox.net >And I'm still waiting for you to tell us about that crystal ball you >have which lets you know WHICH cat will end up with renal failure. >Since there is not one whit worth of POSITIVE news in feeding high phos >foods - High phos foods???? I didn't see any mention of high phos foods. I see you're here once again to defend your employer, Hills. You should spend more of your time trying to teach them that dry food is not an appropriate diet for a carnivore. Isn't it funny that many people who switch to a food like Wellness report how much better their cats are doing? Sorry that it upsets you so much ;) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm ---------------------- High phos foods???? I didn't see any mention of high phos foods. I see you're here once again to defend your employer, Hills. You should spend more of your time trying to teach them that dry food is not an appropriate diet for a carnivore. Isn't it funny that many people who switch to a food like Wellness report how much better their cats are doing? Sorry that it upsets you so much ;) -------------------------- Hey Lauren....Does OMH recommend their products for FLUTD or is that just the opinion of an internet hack like yourself? Seems to me that if the company that makes the stuff doesn't even recommend it for FLUTD, then YOU shouldn't either! Also, why do you continue to persist in falsely maintaining that a "dry food" is not "appropriate" for cats? Millions and millions of cats have thrived on dry diets and continue to do so. For someone who works for/with lawyers, it continues to amuse me that the truth doesn't seem to hold much sway over you! ;) As for Steve defending Hill's, why does that "upset you so much"? He wasn't defending them, he was explaining to the OP what the difference was between c/d-s and c/d (just a name change). He then provided additional info. For the thousandth time, I'll ask you: Why are you such a Hill's Hater?? Jean, I know you are concerned about Mingy not drinking so here are some observations. I have two cats - Tiger is a very large 6 year old male and Amber is a full sized 10 year old female. They get a canned food meal about 6AM and another about 5PM. If I am home at noon Tiger gets a small sample of the turkey I make my sandwich with and they both get a few pieces of Wellness dry (lite). At bedtime they again get a few pieces of the dry. I very rarely see either of them drink water even though there are 5 water dishes scattered around the house. The level of the water goes down but I figure this is from evaporation. They produce plenty of urine so they must get their moisture from the canned food (Wellness is 78 percent water. (I hate paying 75 cents for a can that's mostly water))! One good way to get Mingy to eat is to get several different flavors of canned food so you can find one he likes. Make sure the food is slightly warmed (about body temp) and you can add a little water to soften the texture. I would avoid tuna flavor but salmon would probably be ok. I know you want him to eat the prescription food but it's more important that he eats something - anything (but not dry). ---MIKE--- > Jean, I know you are concerned about Mingy not drinking so here are some > observations. I have two cats - Tiger is a very large 6 year old male [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ---MIKE--- Yes, when a cat doesn't eat, the first thought is to get it to eat. The second thought is to get it to accept whatever it is you want it to eat. <g> Good luck, right? I'd be happy to spend 75 cents a can for something Mingy would eat that is good for him. SignatureJean B. Jean, I'll try to answer below. >s/d is for temporary feeding only, and dissolves the crystals. >How frequently should a cat be monitored on s/d? If the original stone was confirmed by analysis, then monthly should be enough. > c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for > long-term prevention and maintenance. > How frequently does a cat on c/d need to be monitored? The name was changed due to the confusion that existed by having two different forms of c/d - c/d-s for struvite and c/d-oxl for oxalates. The new names are c/d and x/d. Cat's on c/d do not need to be monitored any more frequently than being fed any other diet. Once the vet initially confirms that urine pH is appropriate and no signs of crystals are observed, then annual exams shouold be sufficient. > There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can > understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even > though cats are carnivores, and this seems odd), why does Hill's > use such low-quality meat? I have not seen any denial of that, > and it would be nice if the meat in the formulas was human-grade > and not "floor sweepings". The protein protion of c/d is 90.1% digestible. The objective of a therapeutic diet is to resolve disease issues, not meet Madison Ave marketing requirements. Now is not the time to engage in internet fantasies about "human grade" meats. In regards to "human grade" there is no such thing. I could package horse manure and used engine oil and call it "human grade" with complete immunity. There is no legal definition of "human grade" - it is merely Madison Ave marketing hype. In therapeutic diets the nutrients must take first place on the decision tree, not what "sounds good" and matches Madison Ave marketing glitz. Specific nutrients allow a food of this nature to pass APR studies which prove the food will nto induce struvite crystals in cats. > Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person > says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the > chewable type. BUT cats don't like it and it may be dangerous to > do this, and some question whether or not that actually acidifies > the urine. You couldn't get a cat to eat enough of this to alter the urine pH one tenth of a point. Even force feeding massive amounts failed to move the urine pH half a point. > Cranberry-Blueberry extract. While there is data on this in humans, it has nothign to do with urine Ph but ratehr with the ability of certain parts of cranberries to inhibit the attachment of bacteria to the bladder wall. Ther is NO data that suggests this will be the same in cats. Further cats typically have _sterile_ crystals and unlike dogs the issue of bacteria is not the primary driver. > Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat. If you use this - do so only under veterinary supervision and do NOT feed an acidifying diet at the same time. You will likely push urine pH into the sub 6.0 range and risk forming CaOX stones. > Jean, > I'll try to answer below. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If the original stone was confirmed by analysis, then monthly should be > enough. When I asked why I was not given s/d, the vet said that was for stones and Mingy had crystals. As far as the crystals go, I think they just did a quick microscopic analysis. > > c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for > > long-term prevention and maintenance. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > different forms of c/d - c/d-s for struvite and c/d-oxl for oxalates. > The new names are c/d and x/d. Ah. Well that makes sense. Cat's on c/d do not need to be monitored > any more frequently than being fed any other diet. Once the vet > initially confirms that urine pH is appropriate and no signs of > crystals are observed, then annual exams shouold be sufficient. Okay. We were initially told to go have that checked in 1-2 months. I think I would tend to go sooner, rather than later. > > There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can > > understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > glitz. Specific nutrients allow a food of this nature to pass APR > studies which prove the food will nto induce struvite crystals in cats. But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet. Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use "floor-sweepings", meat from possibly diseased organs, etc.? Now here's a possible tip: if you used really high-grade meats in addition to the formula that is (to a newbie to all of this, anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would have a winning product, which would get less flak. > > Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person > > says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > tenth of a point. Even force feeding massive amounts failed to move the > urine pH half a point. Okay, I've read this more than once. > > Cranberry-Blueberry extract. > While there is data on this in humans, it has nothign to do with urine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have _sterile_ crystals and unlike dogs the issue of bacteria is not > the primary driver. And Mingy's culture was negative. Note that I was just putting together notes based on my reading. I was trying NOT to take sides. > > Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat. > If you use this - do so only under veterinary supervision and do NOT > feed an acidifying diet at the same time. You will likely push urine pH > into the sub 6.0 range and risk forming CaOX stones. That's the problem, isn't it? Seems like one is looking at a small desirable range of urine pH. Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue reading. Thanks for your comments. SignatureJean B. > But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet. > Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would > have a winning product, which would get less flak. I guess we need to step back and define what "high quality" meat is? Is it a meat source that is extremely digestible? (90.1%) Is it a meat source that provides a very broad spectrum of amino acids? Is it a meat source that contains very specific levels of nutrients designed to meet the nutrient needs of the cat in any given disease stage? Or is quality defined by Madison Ave marketing glitz about nonsense like "human grade"? The comment about "floor sweepings" is simply Madison Ave marketing glitz in another form. No meats used at Hill's or any other major manufacturer are "floor sweepings" or derived from "diseased organs". I highly doubt that ANY of the larger premium manufacturers would fit in this category. You would have to drop down to the Ol Roy level to find such ingredients. That's simply more catch phrase internet fantasy. The meats used in Hill's products are all USDA graded meats. Many may be parts of the animal that we in our western civilization do not prefer to eat, lungs, pork livers, other internal organs etc. Have you noticed any specials at the grocery store on pork hearts lately? None of these ingredients are "floor sweepings", that's just nonsense used by scaremongers. It makes for great press and gets your attention, but it's patent nonsense. The choice is to provide the right nutrients to resolve disease issues or provide the "right" ingredients to satisfy Madison Ave marketing glitz. In the case of animals with some disease condition, providing the right nutrients MUST always take precedence over Madison Ave marketing hype. >Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that >is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on >that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got >from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story >here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue >reading. Prescription Diet s/d is designed to drive urine pH down to the 5.9-6.1 range. For that reason is can only be fed on a short term basis and must be monitored carefully by a veterinarian. Understanding risks must also be taken into account. Struvite crystal formation is common in cats between 2-5 years of age, after age 7 Calcium Oxalate are more common. Certain breeds - Persian, Himalyan and Burmese are more prone to CaOx stones at any age. For these reasons a vet needs to be involved. Suppose you have a 9 year old Persian presented with crystals - would s/d be a good choice? Absolutely not, unless the stone was analyzed as struvite, the vet found urine pH around 7+ etc. It is interesting to note that all the cat foods on the market which make claims about "urinary tract health" are required to drive urine pH down below 6.0 for one year in order to use that claim. These foods hit the grocery store shelves in the early 80's - at about the same time that CaOx stones began to become more prevalent and common in cats. > > But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet. > > Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > the right nutrients MUST always take precedence over Madison Ave > marketing hype. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. That's exactly what I want to know. > >Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that > >is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > time that CaOx stones began to become more prevalent and common in > cats. Yes, I have read that. :-( BYW, Mingy is a color-point Persian. He was diagnosed with struvite crystals/blockage. They appear to have decided that just on the basis of a quick microscopic examination. I have been told the following by the three vets (in case you didn't see all of this): 1. Put him on c/d kibble. Vet preferred kibble. No mention of s/d 2. Vet strongly urges use of canned food. 3. Vet seems to prefer canned food and gives me cans of s/d, c/d, and Eukanuba. Says something like s/d is higher grade. This is not only confusing, but ill-advised and just plain sloppy advice. No wonder I am trying to figure out my approach here and doing as much research as I can stand online. SignatureJean B. >>> But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet. >>> Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > advice. No wonder I am trying to figure out my approach here and > doing as much research as I can stand online. I will tell you that I had a red persian that got crystals and would eliminate inappropriately. I fed him the c/d we would go off of it ocassionally but he did VERY well with it. You can *also* over worry which will stress Mingy. I would add a high quality canned food he likes and supplement with the low pH food (whichever he likes best). Add a Feliway diffuser. This is basically what I;ve done with Grant. It has worked very well. I do keep an eye on potty habits but he only had one slight relapse about 3 mmonths after the first and it was such that it was just a sludgy plug that my vet worked out manually, quickly and he has never had a problem since. > > I will tell you that I had a red persian that got crystals and would [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > plug that my vet worked out manually, quickly and he has never had a problem > since. So, were you/are you feeding Grant c/d kibbles? I wonder whether kibbles intended for such kitties (to the degree that one decides to feed kibble at all), with a primary diet of a quality canned food would be a decent approach? It is odd that some of the uretic formulas JUST come in kibble form. I do see, in much reading, that a diet based on kibbles, even the ones designed for struvite crystals, almost invariably results in more blockages. SignatureJean B. >> I will tell you that I had a red persian that got crystals and would >> eliminate inappropriately. I fed him the c/d we would go off of it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So, were you/are you feeding Grant c/d kibbles? Eukanuba Low pH. I put a little down at bedtime. Otherwise we use Petguard wetfood. >I wonder whether > kibbles intended for such kitties (to the degree that one decides > to feed kibble at all), with a primary diet of a quality canned > food would be a decent approach? Well, that is what most posters here who have had the problem do and it seems to work. I tried Wellness, but mine did not like it. They are picky. Finally I found they will eat Petguard Turkey Lite and Premium Feast (which is beef and my vet likes them to stick to winged creatures, but they EAT it and it is canned and good quality so there you are.) >It is odd that some of the > uretic formulas JUST come in kibble form. I do see, in much > reading, that a diet based on kibbles, even the ones designed for > struvite crystals, almost invariably results in more blockages. Yeah, I don't get why it is just dry kibble. I think eventually people will come around to the idea it isn't a good main diet. I have water bowls all over and my cats drink quite a bit now. They just get a kibble snack at bedtiime. Tiger and Amber both get a small amount of kibble treat (Wellness Lite Super 5 mix) at noon and at bedtime. I stress that it is a small amount. At regular meals, they usually finish up one 5.5 ounce can between them within an hour. I am trying to get them to lose a little weight. ---MIKE--- > Tiger and Amber both get a small amount of kibble treat (Wellness Lite > Super 5 mix) at noon and at bedtime. I stress that it is a small [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ---MIKE--- That stuff smells great--but the one sample I opened seemed fishy. I'll look at the ingredient list again though. It's going to be interesting getting Mingy to eat mostly canned food and not graze on dry food. SignatureJean B. > Yeah, I don't get why it is just dry kibble. I think eventually people will > come around to the idea it isn't a good main diet. I have water bowls all > over and my cats drink quite a bit now. They just get a kibble snack at > bedtiime. I am thinking that I would eventually just like to leave a bit of kibble out if I am out for a long time, or maybe a tiny amount at night. But he needs to start actually EATING canned food, and not just licking off the gravy. SignatureJean B. >> Yeah, I don't get why it is just dry kibble. I think eventually people >> will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > night. But he needs to start actually EATING canned food, and not > just licking off the gravy. Try adding water to the canned food to make it like gravy or thick soup. That's how I get more water into my cat Rusty who had 2 previous blockages from struvite crystals. Winnie > > Try adding water to the canned food to make it like gravy or thick soup. > That's how I get more water into my cat Rusty who had 2 previous blockages > from struvite crystals. > > Winnie Thanks, Winnie. I've been adding a bit of homemade chicken broth (no additives), but I can only get away with adding about a spoonful. I figure every little bit helps though. SignatureJean B. >From: "Jean B." jbxyz@rcn.com > I wonder whether >kibbles intended for such kitties (to the degree that one decides [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >reading, that a diet based on kibbles, even the ones designed for >struvite crystals, almost invariably results in more blockages. Hi Jean, I don't know if you've read this article by Dr. Zoran, but it's excellent on why not to feed a carnivore a dry food: http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > Hi Jean, > I don't know if you've read this article by Dr. Zoran, but it's excellent on > why not to feed a carnivore a dry food: > http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf Just bear in mind that this represents unproven hypothesis and theory - it may be right - it may be wrong, and none of the current carbophobics address any of the issues surrounding what happens when you suddenly feed a large cat population a diet with substantially increased levels of protein, phosphorus, iodine, and selenium that necessarily comes along with most low carb diets. > > Hi Jean, > > I don't know if you've read this article by Dr. Zoran, but it's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of protein, phosphorus, iodine, and selenium that necessarily comes > along with most low carb diets. Gee, I'm glad you responded to this, because I didn't see the original article, which I am now printing. Since I am in learning mode, I will try to refrain from commenting. But I did read a mouse is the perfect pH for cat food. Just found that interesting. SignatureJean B. Hi Jean, I agree with the advice on using a canend food with any cat that has some issues with crystaluria. There have now been three published peer reviewed studies which make it clear that we can increase the amount of water that is excreted in the urine by using canned food versus dry food and an equal amount of free water. It simply makes logical sense to feed a canned food in that instance. I disagree that every otherwise healthy cat ought to be on canned food. Urolithiasis is a common disease, but still hits less than 5% of the population. Within the small segment of cats affected by urolithiasis, there is another small segment that do much better on canned foods than dry foods. In the real world about 90% of cats fed a diet for crystals are fed dry foods without a problem. I suspect the first vet considers the chances too remote to require using canned foods which are many times more expensive to feed than dry foods. I have no clue why a vet would consider s/d a "higher" grade. That's much like saying a screwdriver is a higher grade than a hammer. They are two different tools designed to do two different jobs. Perhaps she meant it as a food that would drive urine pH more acidic thus it was a "higher grade". Knowing your cat is a persian I can understand why the first vet shied away from s/d. Absent a solid analysis of stones, a persian cat is at much greater risk of oxalates than struvites and feeding s/d could exacerbate the problem. In looking back through the posts I didn't see any actual analysis - only a microscopic diagnosis. It is not uncommon to have cats that are shedding struvite crystals, but have a CaOx stone in the bladder. Were x-rays done? That could help shed some light on the issue as well. On-line research is a good thing, but you really have to be careful. I have observed some awful advice out there, some that is just plain dangerous. There seems to be a lot of people with zero education in nutrition and whose sum total of experience exists in a single cat they owned, or information from one web page or another. There is certainly a huge danger in the world wide web, it requires that we adopt a huge amount of skepticism to anything we read, otherwise we'll end up thinking the earth if flat, the Halocaust never happened, and the moon is made of green cheese. > Hi Jean, > I agree with the advice on using a canend food with any cat that [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > end up thinking the earth if flat, the Halocaust never happened, and > the moon is made of green cheese. Thanks, Steve. In spite of some of my comments, I truly am looking for unbiased information--and for guidance as to what would be best for Mingy. It seems (right now) that canned is best, and to the degree he gets kibble it probably should be that which is designed for struvite crystals, br it Hills or some other variety. They did mention xrays, and none of the vets mentioned stones. I do find it odd that these vets seem to have such different ideas re cat food after such an episode. Given the omnipresence of Hill's prescription cat foods in the veterinary offices, I would have hoped the vets had received some sort of education on its use. SignatureJean B. >Jean B. 31 Jan 2005 13:41 [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Thanks, Steve. In spite of some of my comments, I truly am looking for unbiased information-- IMO, the information posted by Steve Crane is biased, since he does in fact work for Hill's. I think you're doing the right thing, Jean, by doing your research on this issue. As you see, there are quite a lot of opinions here. Lauren > IMO, the information posted by Steve Crane is biased, since he does > in fact work for Hill's. I think you're doing the right thing, Jean, > by doing your research on this issue. As you see, there are quite a > lot of opinions here. > > Lauren While I understand why you believe Steve Crane is biased, there is very little in his post that promotes Hill's over any other product so this particular post, IMO, is not biased at all. He only mentions Hill's products to answer Jean's questions about s/d vs the other one (was it c/d?). He in no way says, in his posts, that Jean must feed Hill's products over any others. Perhaps you could elaborate on what information in his post is biased. rona (Not trying to cause trouble, I'm just trying to understand) Signature***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!*** "[America] is filled with people who decided not to live in Europe. We had people who really wanted to live in Europe, but didn't have the energy to go back. We call them Canadians." ---Grover Norquist in Newsweek, November 22, 2004 > >Jean B. 31 Jan 2005 13:41 > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Message posted via http://www.catkb.com There sure are, and Steve does work for Hill's, but I still think he has valuable input. I just won't take his (or anyone else's) as the final word on the topic. Some folks seem to be more credible than others, but I am new to all of this.......... SignatureJean B. > >Jean B. 31 Jan 2005 13:41 > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Message posted via http://www.catkb.com Lauren is what I have termed, "a Hill's Hater". She dislikes *anything* about Hill's or *anybody* that supports Hill's. Steve Crane, IMO, is a balanced, good source of info...regardless of the fact that he works for Hill's. BTW, I see that Lauren has "changed" her "name" on the ng, here. ;) Lauren, I have never hidden who my employer is. I have no reason to do so. If you search back you will find a number of posts like this one which contain the "legalese" below. Since my "credentials" are an issue it's probably time to re-state them a bit. I have been an emplpoyee of Hill's for 20+ years. I have spent most of that time teaching vets and techs the intricacies of small animal clinical nutrition. For the past three years I have been tasked to literature search responsibilities and new product development activities. I have well over 2,000 plus hours of continuing education science sessions and I spend my days intimately involved with veterinarians who have additional degrees - PhD's, Board Certifications, Diplomates of the various boards etc. For over 20 years I have lived and breathed small animal clinical nutrition for more than 40 hours a week. Legalese: While I am an employee of Hill's, ANYTHING I say here is my personal opinion and my personal opinion alone and in NO way should it be construed as representing my employer. >From: "Steve Crane" eodemolay@cox.net >Lauren, > I have never hidden who my employer is. I have no reason to do so. >If you search back you will find a number of posts like this one which >contain the "legalese" below. That's fine and all, but the only time I recall you admitting that you work for Hill's is when you are asked about it. There have been many posts by you where you in fact did not state that you work for Hill's, and many of these posts contain comments by you denigrating other pet foods/pet food companies. I know myself whenever I see someone bashing the competition, I take their information as it is offered. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Steve Crane" eodemolay@cox.net > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Lauren Lauren it seems you make the same allegation every 30 days or so. When are you going to get off this merry-go-round? It seems to me that since you can't destroy the message, you try to destroy the messenger. You should really give it a rest! It's quite clear that Steve knows what he's talking about and since you have never been able to rebut anything he's said and because he is affliated with a company that you hate, that you try to impugn his integrity and/or the validity of his arguments! > I have started going back over the posts made on this topic and > thought I would post some of my jottings here for comment and for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > *Moderate sodium is not a problem for cats with struvite crystals > (but IS a problem for cats with oxalate crystals) > What We Want to Achieve: > Urine pH needs to be between 6.2 and 6.3 or 6.4 for maintenance. > Needs to be about 6.0 to dissolve crystals that are already > present. BUT note that very acidic diets can promote calcium > oxalate crystals and uroliths, which are much more dangerous than > struvite crystals. Jean, If he's not taking to s/d- c/d - you can try other similarly formulated diets. Iams Low pH/S, Purina UR, or Walthams S/O Control pH. Phil > > If he's not taking to s/d- c/d - you can try other similarly formulated [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Phil Yes, I now have some Eukanuba. It's good to know there are options. SignatureJean B.
|
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.