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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2005To neuter, or not, or something else?
I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! I'm strict about keeping him indoors because there are several other apartment complexes near me (high-density human population) and more people means more of the rare ones who harm cats. He's athletic, alert, active and intelligent but here in a major city he's hemmed in by apartments. He would be a perfect farm cat and he yearns to go outside, especially when he smells a queen in heat. I'm a firm believer in feline birth control; no one even wanted my cat before he found and adopted me. He must be altered somehow. I hate to have him neutered; I don't want to change his nature. I'm wondering about a vasectomy for him. I'm turning over the idea of getting a female cat and having her tubes tied. They would still have to be indoor cats, but at least the two of them would have a more normal life than living as eunuchs. I sure would appreciate hearing what you think on the subject. Cheers, Ingrid > He must be altered somehow. I hate to have him neutered; I don't want > to change his nature. I'm wondering about a vasectomy for him. I'm > turning over the idea of getting a female cat and having her tubes > tied. They would still have to be indoor cats, but at least the two of > them would have a more normal life than living as eunuchs. I sure would > appreciate hearing what you think on the subject. Are you for real? If you did the tubes-tied female thing, that would be unbelievably cruel to the female. Sex for a female cat is like us having sex with a pine cone (thanks for that analogy, Phil!) In addition, the female would continue to go in and out of heat, putting her at great risk for cancer and uterine infection. You can bet your male would start spraying with her around! As for the male cat, there really is no other option but to neuter him.  Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > Are you for real? If you did the tubes-tied female thing, that would be > unbelievably cruel to the female. Sex for a female cat is like us having > sex with a pine cone Why do you assume that a cat doesnt enjoy that ? I mean, why would a cat not enjoy having some fun ? Wouldnt that be weird nature ? (thanks for that analogy, Phil!) In addition, the > female would continue to go in and out of heat, putting her at great risk > for cancer and uterine infection. So nature made cats getting cancer and uterine infection unless a human makes them infertile ? What sense does that make ? You can bet your male would start > spraying with her around! I would bet on that as well..... and bed matresses are a favourite. Which would probably neuter your social life.... > As for the male cat, there really is no other option but to neuter him. Thats one thing I always wondered about....why is that the only option ? Why cant we do something a little more gentle ? cheers Mad > Why do you assume that a cat doesnt enjoy that ? > I mean, why would a cat not enjoy having some fun ? Wouldnt that be weird > nature ? Where are these freaks coming from? Have you ever heard cats having sex? Does it sound like it's fun? > So nature made cats getting cancer and uterine infection unless a human > makes them infertile ? > What sense does that make ? No, female cats were designed to go into heat over and over again until they breed. Their whole life is designed to be a kitten factory and then they die young. > Thats one thing I always wondered about....why is that the only option ? > Why cant we do something a little more gentle ? Neutering is a simple operation, if you can even call it that, takes less than 10 minutes. It improves the quality of the cat's life. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG >> Why do you assume that a cat doesnt enjoy that ? I mean, why would a cat >> not enjoy having some fun ? Wouldnt that be weird nature ? > > Where are these freaks coming from? Have you ever heard cats having sex? > Does it sound like it's fun? To play devil's advocate: have you ever heard certain people having sex? Does it sound like it's fun? How many times have you heard jokes about little kids spying their parents "in the act" and thinking daddy was hurting mommy? >> So nature made cats getting cancer and uterine infection unless a human >> makes them infertile ? What sense does that make ? > > No, female cats were designed to go into heat over and over again until they > breed. Their whole life is designed to be a kitten factory and then they > die young. I never did understand the "pinecone" aspect, though. What is up with that? Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance survival, doesn't hurt it, either? >> Thats one thing I always wondered about....why is that the only option ? >> Why cant we do something a little more gentle ? > > Neutering is a simple operation, if you can even call it that, takes less > than 10 minutes. It improves the quality of the cat's life. I was going to ask about vasectomies, but it occurs to me that even those are more invasive than what is currently done. I suppose you could argue that spaying/neutering humans would improve their quality of life, too, as they wouldn't be distracted by sexual impulses, but I don't want to be spayed! (Note: I definitely believe in altering pets. I just happen to think it's the lesser of two evils.) Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > >> Why do you assume that a cat doesnt enjoy that ? I mean, why would a cat > >> not enjoy having some fun ? Wouldnt that be weird nature ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it sound like it's fun? How many times have you heard jokes about little kids > spying their parents "in the act" and thinking daddy was hurting mommy? /snip/ > I never did understand the "pinecone" aspect, though. What is up with > that? Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance > survival, doesn't hurt it, either? Perhaps 'pine cone' isn't quite the right description. Might take a look at some expensive condoms. :) Some breeders induce ovulation with a Q-tip. Margaret S. ----------- > I never did understand the "pinecone" aspect, though. What is up with that? > Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance survival, > doesn't hurt it, either? I've read that the barbs aid in inducing ovulation. Cathy > I suppose you could argue that spaying/neutering humans would improve > their > quality of life, too, as they wouldn't be distracted by sexual impulses, > but I > don't want to be spayed! Since the testicles produce testosterone, if you were spayed, you wouldn't have any more sexual urges. Mike >> I suppose you could argue that spaying/neutering humans would improve >> their [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike Well, I'm female, and spaying has nothing to do with testicles, and I'm not sure what Kelly's attribution has to do with any of this. And you seem to be repeating the gist of what I just said. So I'm not sure what you're trying to add? Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > Well, I'm female, and spaying has nothing to do with testicles, and I'm > not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > trying to > add? Sorry, I skimmed the post and missed the point completely... Mike > Sorry, I skimmed the post and missed the point completely... > > Mike *grin* It happens. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > Sorry, I skimmed the post and missed the point completely... > > > > Mike > > *grin* It happens. Yep. A hazard of speed reading. > > Well, I'm female, and spaying has nothing to do with testicles, and I'm > > not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mike Ah. No wonder, then. 'Cause otherwise, I just didn't get that reply.... Cathy > > I suppose you could argue that spaying/neutering humans would improve > > their > > quality of life, too, as they wouldn't be distracted by sexual impulses, > > but I > > don't want to be spayed! > Since the testicles produce testosterone, if you were spayed, you wouldn't > have any more sexual urges. > > Mike ??? This is not making sense. Female cats are spayed - removal of ovaries & uterus, and male cats are castrated - removal of testicles. Then, I'm trying to equate this with humans (re: Monique's last statement), & am still not coming up w/ an analogy. Yes, testicles can be analogous to ovaries, re: male/female (technically, a female whose ovaries have been removed has been castrated), but... Cathy > I never did understand the "pinecone" aspect, though. What is up with that? > Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance survival, > doesn't hurt it, either? It stimulates ovulation. Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html /snip/ > > What is up with that? > > Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance survival, doesn't hurt it, either? > It stimulates ovulation. Professional breeders produce stimulate in their cats with a Q-tip. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. And if they all agree, go for it. :) > > > What is up with that? > > > Maybe just one of those weird things that, while it doesn't enhance [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Professional breeders produce stimulate in their cats with a Q-tip. Could you explain what that has to do with the poster's question about "enhancing survival"? Q-tips are somehow involved in natural selection and survival??? ;) Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html > So nature made cats getting cancer and uterine infection unless a human > makes them infertile ? > What sense does that make ? More than you are . . . Signaturehttp://www.slywy.com/pages/hodge.html Sex for a female cat is like us having > sex with a pine cone (thanks for that analogy, Phil!) I think "pin cushion" would have been a better analogy. http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/phallus_of_tom_cu_barbs.jpg http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/Phallus_of_tom_cat%20.jpg Cats are induced ovulators The barbs on the tom's phallus induce ovulation in the female. Actually, the size of the spines on the penis depends on the hormonal state of the tom. IOW, the spines increase in size as the male hormone levels rise and decrease in size as the male hormone level decrease with age. Phil. "Cat mistakes are the kind of "accidental" errors, biological "setbacks" chargeable to civilization and to domestication. They have nothing in common with clumsy, blunt actions that are almost intentional. --- COLETTE" Feline Healthcare & More: http://maxshouse.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Health_and_Behavior/ > I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with me, > waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! I'm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > normal life than living as eunuchs. I sure would appreciate hearing what you > think on the subject. Male alteration doesn't bother me as much as female, because the female surgery is so invasive. But either way, I have my pets altered, for the same reason my indoor cat has tags and an ID chip: you cannot guarantee that they will never get out. You cannot know that, while you're slipping in the doorway, arms full of groceries, the pet won't dash between your legs. You can't know that a guest will never accidentally leave the door open. An example: Last summer, my inlaws visited. DH and his dad decided to cook some chili, and their first step was to sautee the hot peppers. Hint: spicy peppers + hot oil = pepper spray They ran to open the doors. In his excitement, FIL forgot about Oscar and neglected to keep the screen door on the front of the house closed. Oscar, being of at least average intelligence and survival instinct, took the opportunity to escape the fumes. Hours later, she was sitting at the front door, waiting to be let back in. Had it been a warmer season, she might have stayed gone for longer. Had she not been altered, I'd likely have been responsible for bringing more unwanted kittens into the world. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* >reason my indoor cat has tags and an ID chip: you cannot guarantee that they >will never get out. You cannot know that, while you're slipping in the >doorway, arms full of groceries, the pet won't dash between your legs. You >can't know that a guest will never accidentally leave the door open. Eighteen years ago, my mom's cat chewed through a screen window, jumped two floors, spent the night in the garage, and had 8 kittens. We never expected her to get out. That was why we had her locked in a second floor room. We never thought a cat would chew through a screen window. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with > me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! How old is he? > I'm strict about keeping him indoors because there are several other > apartment complexes near me (high-density human population) and more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > He must be altered somehow. I hate to have him neutered; I don't want > to change his nature. I'm wondering about a vasectomy for him. Professional breeders get this done. They use him as a 'teaser tom' for other breeders who want their females kept happy by 'sterile mating' without pregnancy. :) http://tinyurl.com/6q98w > I'm > turning over the idea of getting a female cat and having her tubes > tied. A safer alternative to regular spaying is "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries." This prevents possible future uterus infections, pyometra, etc. If she's allowed to mate with him, she may go in every couple of months, or possibly every month, for a couple of days. This is more easily available from US vets than vasectomy is. Margaret S. This subject draws flames on Usenet. Might be safer to continue by email. :) margaret@sangerfanREMOVE.com ----------- Maragaret S. wrote: >A safer alternative to regular spaying is >"remove the uterus but leave the ovaries." >This prevents possible future uterus >infections, pyometra, etc. Maybe you should do a little research before you start posting this idiotic, harmful garbage. Leaving the ovaries is NOT "safe" and the cat will continue to suffer through repeated heats, which increase the risk of mammary cancer and is miserable for the cat and the owner. It also pute the cat at trick for developing an infection called stump pyometra. There is no good reason to do this to a cat. From veterinary partner.com: "since it is the ovaries that are responsible for the heat cycles, possible mammary tumor development, and behavior problems, it is crucial that the ovaries be removed intact" From Dr. Lila Miller, DVM, ASPCA "Spaying virtually eliminates the development of pyometras in dogs and cats. Pyometras are infections of the uterus that can also be expensive, life- threatening medical emergencies. (If all ovarian tissue is not removed, a pyometra can still occur in the stump of the uterus that is left behind. This is commonly known as a stump pyometra." Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > From Dr. Lila Miller, DVM, ASPCA "Spaying virtually eliminates the > development of pyometras in dogs and cats. Pyometras are infections of the > uterus that can also be expensive, life- threatening medical emergencies. > (If all ovarian tissue is not removed, a pyometra can still occur in the > stump of the uterus that is left behind. This is commonly known as a stump > pyometra." I recognize that humans are not cats or dogs, but why is this not a huge issue in human women? Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > I recognize that humans are not cats or dogs, but why is this not a huge > issue in human women? I'd guess it's because human women menstruate, while (AFAIK) female cats don't. The OP was considering "having her tubes tied", ie tubal ligation. If someone wants an alternative to regular spaying, removing the uterus is safer than tubal ligation, as I said. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. >The OP was considering "having her >tubes tied", ie tubal ligation. If someone >wants an alternative to regular spaying, >removing the uterus is safer than tubal >ligation, as I said. It's *not* safer, as I said. Recommending a procedure that ensures a cat a life of constant heats and misery, and puts its health at great risk, is unconscionable. We've already been down this road, and if you want to post your ignorant garbage in ARC where nobody cares and you can top post to your heart's content, go right ahead. In fact, if you want to talk cats rec.pets.cats.anecdotes may be just the place for you. You can post cute stories about how you killed, neglected, abandoned, abused or tortured your cat and you won't get flamed, but you will get :"purrs" and "so sorry for your loss" responses. Posting your nonsense here where you can do real harm if anyone is dumb enough to believe you is unacceptable. Of course, nobody can stop you, but it doesn't mean we won't be breathing down your stupid neck at every turn. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >The OP was considering "having her > >tubes tied", ie tubal ligation. If someone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's *not* safer, as I said. I'm not sure how to make this clearer. As far as uterus problems are concerned: 1. regular spaying - probably safest 2. removing uterus alone - less safe 3. tubal ligation, uterus left - least safe Do you really disagree with this ranking? Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. >I'm not sure how to make this clearer. As >far as uterus problems are concerned: >1. regular spaying - probably safest >2. removing uterus alone - less safe >3. tubal ligation, uterus left - least safe >Do you really disagree with this ranking? We're not talking about ranking. You offered "spay but leave the ovaries" as a safer alternative, conveniently leaving out the facts that show it's not a safe alternative AT ALL. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >I'm not sure how to make this clearer. As > >far as uterus problems are concerned: > >1. regular spaying - probably safest > >2. removing uterus alone - less safe > >3. tubal ligation, uterus left - least safe > >Do you really disagree with this ranking? /snip/ > You offered "spay but leave the > ovaries" as a safer alternative, Safer than tubal ligation. > conveniently leaving out the facts that > show it's not a safe alternative AT ALL. Not to bog down in quotes, but if there have been any studies of stump pyometra comparing spayed cats against outdoor "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries" cats allowed to mate freely, I'd be very interested in the url. /snip/ > Learn The TRUTH About Declawing > http://www.stopdeclaw.com Good luck on that. I hope everyone reads your recent post here about CVMA and phones or emails them as you suggest. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > The OP was considering "having her tubes tied", ie tubal ligation. If > someone wants an alternative to regular spaying, removing the uterus is > safer than tubal ligation, as I said. > > Margaret S. Yes but MARGARET Megan KNOWS WHO YOU ARE!!! lol Oh and Margaret S, I know you're Marianne from ARC. There are not that many people that post so ignorantly on this subject (and others) as you do. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Oh and Margaret S, I know you're Marianne from ARC. There are not that > many people that post so ignorantly on this subject (and others) as you > do. > > Megan Jesus but you are charming. You combine all the characteristics of a paranoid NetDick with the obnoxious qualities of a "holier-than-thou" know-it-all. Whether you are right or wrong, you are still an a.shole. <whining and complaints about netdicking snipped> Ya know, Mary, the people that complain the most about netdicking are the same ones whose own words have come back to haunt them. For somone who so adaantly criticizes "netdicking" you do quite the job of it yourself. In fact, you've shown you'll really go to the extreme: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/90f10423dcd611a9 Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > <whining and complaints about netdicking snipped> > > Ya know, Mary, the people that complain the most about netdicking are > the same ones whose own words have come back to haunt them. For somone > who so adaantly criticizes "netdicking" you do quite the job of it > yourself. In fact, you've shown you'll really go to the extreme: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/90f10423dcd611a9 Megan, your panties just stay in a wad, don't they? I admit, I have a healthy curiosity, and might just Google someone who posts with their first and last name. What you do rises to another level. You are just an unpleasant, know-it-all, shrill, holier-than-thou a.shole. You have no wit, no measurable intelligence, and the entire measure of your self worth appears to be caught up in "I know something you don't know about cats and you have to email me to find out." You are obviously so unhappy--and I would feel for you, but you have not quite figured out that you can be a miserable a.shole without spreading the misery. Here's a great question for you: if you have so much to share why not do it here? Why do you insist people pursue some sort of real-life, personal relationship with you in order to benefit from your allegedly superior knowledge? Hmmm? (...) > Megan, ... You are just > an unpleasant, know-it-all, shrill, holier-than-thou a.shole. (...) > miserable a.shole without spreading the misery. So, does this mean that you two will no longer be getting together for your weekly hug and game of cribbage? S. <snip typical and predictable projecting> >Here's a great question for you: if you >have so much to share why not do it >here? When I have time, I do. >Why do you insist people pursue >some sort of real-life, personal >relationship with you in order to benefit >from your allegedly superior knowledge? I don't and I'm not sure where you would get such an idea. >Hmmm? I do have a lot of things going on and there are times when it's silly to spend hours or days going back and forth in email or on a newsgroup to get information/details that can help me help someone when I can accomplish the same thing in a phone call or two. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. I've been fortunate to make some really wonderful friends in the process, but it's not something I "insist" on. HTH. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > <snip typical and predictable projecting> > >Here's a great question for you: if you > >have so much to share why not do it > >here? > > When I have time, I do. What you do is blast in with an occasional, always self-righteous, half hysterical criticism of what someone else said. For example, if you were not an a.shole, when I advised the poster to feed his fat cat what I feed my fat cat and you thought this was too little, you might have said "You know, that seems like far too little." Instead, you did your usual Zuzu "oh I am so OUTRAGED" thing. And you do it to everyone, not just those of us who have called you the a.shole you are. > >Why do you insist people pursue > >some sort of real-life, personal > >relationship with you in order to benefit > >from your allegedly superior knowledge? > > I don't and I'm not sure where you would get such an idea. Because you insisted I email you when you commented on Buddha's diet earlier and there was NO reason for that. > >Hmmm? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > accomplish the same thing in a phone call or two. It doesn't take a > rocket scientist to figure that one out. So it is because you find it more convenient. Your telephone must be mighty quiet. Usenet is for the exchange of information and ideas. Few people are here to make phone buddies. If you care so much about Felines Everywhere, you should not insist on personal communication--particularly when you spend so much time coming off as a rabid a.shole. > Usenet is for the exchange of information and ideas. Few people > are here to make > phone buddies. If you care so much about Felines Everywhere, you > should not insist on personal communication--particularly when > you spend so much time coming off as a rabid a.shole. No Mary, all of Usenet is not for exchange of information and ideas. Have you really read the content of some of the messages posted here? Some of them are indeed life or death. Do you really think that just because some of you tell someone to consult their pets vet about a diet that is killing them that they will actually do it? I'd bet most will wait until the next time they're forced into getting vaccinations done. Or something more serious comes up. If someone is offered help (and the health of living beings is not a "chitty chat" subject like for example, "post your kitties pics online so I can see them! *gush* *scream* *squeal*") for *free*, why is that something to ridicule? Megan doesn't just consult about diets, she has arranged long distance adoptions when there were no other choices. Fund raising. Just because you don't "like what she says" or her "tone", tough sh.t. Sound familiar? lol Get over it or use your killfile. "Rabid a.shole". Now there is another PKB. Jeebus. Oh, and nice backpeddle on the real amount you feed Buddha. First its 1/2 of a 3oz can per day. Then its 1/2 2x per day, then you tell someone Megan says because they're feeding 7oz per day per cat they are starving their cat. You really need to make up your mind. SignatureCheryl > > Usenet is for the exchange of information and ideas. Few people > > are here to make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ideas. Have you really read the content of some of the messages > posted here? Some of them are indeed life or death. Think much? Do you really > think that just because some of you tell someone to consult their > pets vet about a diet that is killing them that they will actually [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > online so I can see them! *gush* *scream* *squeal*") for *free*, > why is that something to ridicule? You're in trouble, aren't you? Because this post is so divorced from reality, I don't even need to bother responding to it. >Megan doesn't just consult about > diets, she has arranged long distance adoptions when there were no > other choices. Fund raising. Just because you don't "like what she > says" or her "tone", tough sh.t. Sound familiar? lol Get over it > or use your killfile. Saint Megan is also everything I've said she is. A sanctimonious a.shole who often alienates the very ones she claims to want to help. > "Rabid a.shole". Now there is another PKB. Jeebus. Oh, and nice > backpeddle on the real amount you feed Buddha. First its 1/2 of a > 3oz can per day. Then its 1/2 2x per day, then you tell someone > Megan says because they're feeding 7oz per day per cat they are > starving their cat. You really need to make up your mind. You so cute with that lingo. You go, old girl. :) >No Mary, all of Usenet is not for exchange of information and >ideas. Actually, usenet is the best forum for exchange of information. Why? Because it is archived. When I am looking up a problem, whether it be a health issue, training issue, or a computer issue, usenet is the first place I look. I do searches, and if I don't find the solution, then I ask in a newsgroup. What else usenet for? Simple chatting? Frankly, mailing lists are better for that. I find usenet to be more educational and not as frilly as the mailing lists. > Have you really read the content of some of the messages >posted here? Some of them are indeed life or death. And shouldn't those replies be posted to the newsgroup? How does it help anybody else if the replies go privately? Honestly, when somebody finds themself with an emergency, and many people don't realize it is an emergency; wouldn't it be best if they did a search and found replies with good information as to *why* it is an emergency? Yes, it is good to send the replies via email as well, as the person may get it faster. But the replies to the group are important too. Signature-- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > I do have a lot of things going on and there are times when it's silly > to spend hours or days going back and forth in email or on a newsgroup > to get information/details that can help me help someone when I can > accomplish the same thing in a phone call or two. Perhaps if you gave up your webtv unit and joined the world of personal computer users you might find it more comfortable to communicate in ways that are convenient for all involved, Princess I-Am-So-Outraged. I mean, Webtv? For Christ's sake. > A safer alternative to regular spaying is "remove the uterus but leave the > ovaries." This prevents possible future uterus infections, pyometra, etc. Who let this one out of her padded cell? /snip apparent misunderstanding/ The OP wanted an alternative to spaying and mentioned tubal ligation. I told her that non-ovario-hystrectomy was safer than tubal ligation. I did not say it was safer than spaying. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > /snip apparent misunderstanding/ Un, no. Unsnip direct quote: : A safer alternative to regular spaying is "remove the uterus but leave : the ovaries." This prevents possible future uterus infections, pyometra, : etc. > The OP wanted an alternative to spaying and mentioned tubal ligation. I > told her that non-ovario-hystrectomy was safer than tubal ligation. That may have been what you meant, but that isn't what you said. And even if you had meant that, you are clearly too ignorant to be posting about such things anyway. > I did not say it was safer than spaying. To repeat the direct quote that you want to snip: : A safer alternative to regular spaying is "remove the uterus but leave : the ovaries." You can go back to sleep now. > > /snip apparent misunderstanding/ > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You can go back to sleep now. Hey, Arjun, I stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea about such things. However, I did notice that over in alt.med.veterinary, none of the vets appear to respond to Margaret. See the thread "stump pyometra." I wonder if we should try to get one of the good vets to elaborate on the "teaser tom" stuff? > Hey, Arjun, I stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea about > such things. However, I did notice that over in alt.med.veterinary, none > of the vets appear to respond to Margaret. No surprise. > See the thread "stump pyometra." I wonder if we should try to get one of > the good vets to elaborate on the "teaser tom" stuff? Oh, it happens. The facts of the matter aren't in dispute: leaving the gonads (ovaries or testes) intact results in the retention of sexual *behavior*, simply because the relevant hormones are still being secreted. The Margarets of the lunatic fringe are quite happy to ignore the medical evidence of why this is bad. > > Hey, Arjun, I stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea about > > such things. However, I did notice that over in alt.med.veterinary, none [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The Margarets of the lunatic fringe are quite happy to ignore the medical > evidence of why this is bad. Ahh, Gad, I was hoping that wasn't true. How awful. >>> I wonder if we should try to get one of the good vets to elaborate on >>> the "teaser tom" stuff? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > Ahh, Gad, I was hoping that wasn't true. How awful. Yeah. Even though breeding is a sickening business, I suppose something like the use of "teaser toms" to take queens out of heat shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. But the "opposite case" - using queens apparently in heat to keep studs "happy" - is bizarre. Of course, there may be breeders brainless enough to be doing this - just look at our dear Margaret's "technical" question om alt.med.veterinary - but there is no rational principle by which this couldn't be construed as abuse. (Not only is the idea of making toms "happy" absurd - that isn't how their sex-drive works - but deliberately putting female cats through heat is probably an indication of the lengths some sickos will go to remain willfully ignorant.) > >>> I wonder if we should try to get one of the good vets to elaborate on > >>> the "teaser tom" stuff? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > like the use of "teaser toms" to take queens out of heat shouldn't come as > too much of a surprise. A few years ago we used a vasctomized tom to induce ovulation in cycling feral females to cut down the estrous cycles and give us more time to TNR the females. One tom can take 20 females outta heat in one day. Although the experiment resulted in less litters and a lot less kittens the following season we stopped the project at one cat because the surgery didn't benefit the actual tom. I wasn't gung ho about the idea to begin with, but the kitten population was really out of hand and we needed a quick solution to slow down the birth rate. The county shelters were killing 3 month old kittens by the dozens. I would have sold my soul to the devil to stop that. /snip/ > > See the thread "stump pyometra." I wonder if we should try to get one of > > the good vets to elaborate on the "teaser tom" stuff? > > Oh, it happens. The facts of the matter aren't in dispute: leaving the > gonads (ovaries or testes) intact results in the retention of sexual > *behavior*, simply because the relevant hormones are still being secreted. My question on alt.med.veterinary was technical, concerning stump pyometra and how much if any 'stump' of uterine or cervical tissue actually needs to be left. Some people are determined never to have their pet's ovaries removed, no matter what you say. Their only alternatives are a cat producing litters or a cat not producing litters but retaining ovaries. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. [re "teaser tom" and related abuses] >> Oh, it happens. The facts of the matter aren't in dispute: leaving the >> gonads (ovaries or testes) intact results in the retention of sexual [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and how much if any 'stump' of uterine or cervical tissue actually needs > to be left. No, your question was not technical. It was nonsensical. If you had bothered to *read* the thread - comprehension, of course, being a different matter entirely - you would have been in a position to gather the following facts: 1. Pyometra is the result of hormonal activity from the ovaries. That is: no ovaries, no pyometra, regardless of how much uterine tissue is still present after the surgery. 2. It is rare for all uterine tissue to be removed. While not stated in so many words, this is clearly a function of finishing a surgical procedure quickly and safely. Trying to remove every last bit of tissue could be more complication than it's worth. The anecdotal evidence in the thread showed a range from the entire uterus being left in to even the cervix being taken out. 3. You normally don't go in just to remove the uterus, or parts of it. Because, Einstein, that isn't the *point*. > Some people are determined never to have their pet's ovaries removed, no > matter what you say. Their only alternatives are a cat producing litters > or a cat not producing litters but retaining ovaries. > > Margaret S. > Some people are determined never to have their pet's ovaries removed, > no matter what you say. Then they shouldn't have pets. > Their only alternatives are a cat producing litters or a cat not > producing litters but retaining ovaries. You can pander all you want to the sappy sentiments of the biologically ignorant, but spare the rest of us your violence on the English language by trying to whitewash abuse as "an alternative". > > Some people are determined never to have their pet's ovaries removed, > > no matter what you say. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ignorant, but spare the rest of us your violence on the English language > by trying to whitewash abuse as "an alternative". Beautifully said. /snip/ > > The OP wanted an alternative to spaying and mentioned tubal ligation. I > > told her that non-ovario-hystrectomy was safer than tubal ligation. > > That may have been what you meant, but that isn't what you said. After you snipped the context, my reply might be misunderstood; please don't repeat it out of context. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > After you snipped the context, my reply might be misunderstood; please > don't repeat it out of context. There is no misunderstanding the plain statement "A safer alternative to regular spaying is X", for any value of X. English, anyone? > > After you snipped the context, my reply might be misunderstood; please > > don't repeat it out of context. > > There is no misunderstanding the plain statement "A safer alternative to > regular spaying is X", for any value of X. When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > > > After you snipped the context, my reply might be misunderstood; please > > > don't repeat it out of context. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer > alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. Are you a breeder? >> When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer >> alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. >> > Are you a breeder? Heh. No prizes for that one. > >> When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer > >> alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. > >> > > Are you a breeder? > > Heh. No prizes for that one. Pllbbbbt! >> There is no misunderstanding the plain statement "A safer alternative to >> regular spaying is X", for any value of X. > > When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer > alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. Three dots? One more time, slowly. You could have said "A safer alternative is X", which in context would have clearly meant "an alternative to Z". But not only did you not say anything implying "a safer alternative TO Z", you actually wrote "a safer alternative TO REGULAR SPAYING". Can you even read? /snip/ > > When the context is an OP talking about alternative Z, then "A safer > > alternative ... is X" means that X is a safer alternative than Z is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One more time, slowly. You could have said "A safer alternative is X", > which in context would have clearly meant "an alternative to Z". It did clearly mean just that, in the whole context. Please don't keep posting your incorrect interpretation. The more posts containing your interpretation (or a fragment of my original out of context), the more likely someone might encounter one of them on a Google Groups keyword search and be misled. Some posts here show sophisticated use of language. I'd assumed the reading level would be equally sophisticated. In future I will try to keep my grammar simpler and more snip-proof. Margaret S. >> Three dots? >> >> One more time, slowly. You could have said "A safer alternative is X", >> which in context would have clearly meant "an alternative to Z". > > It did clearly mean just that, in the whole context. Only in your head. You actually wrote "a safer alternative to regular spaying". Twist and turn all you want, but the actual use of the phrase "to regular spaying" makes nonsense out of all your lame excuses. > In future I will try to keep my grammar simpler and more snip-proof. In future, just keep your ignorance to yourself. Thanks, much. >> It did clearly mean just that, in the whole context. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In future, just keep your ignorance to yourself. Thanks, much. Not only that, but she wrote that it was a touchy subject that would cause flames, and "it'd be safer to take it to email". Sure, that wouldn't bring on corrections. SignatureCheryl > I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with > me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheers, Ingrid I do NOT know why people think neutering will change their nature. Expecially once they are fully mature. It just isn't so. He will be the same cat. It is not traumatic for boys at all. Just get him neutered. > I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with > me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > them would have a more normal life than living as eunuchs. I sure would > appreciate hearing what you think on the subject. If the cat is sexually mature and has mostly finished growing you won't know the difference after having him neutered. Well you will - he'll be just that much better of a pet. Trust me, they don't hold it against us. Paul ingrid.seim@gmail.com writes >"I have an angel of a tomcat;...I hate to have >him neutered..." No need to worry. You'd be doing him a favor. Neutered cats have no risk of testicular cancer, won't be distracted by females in heat, and exhibit very little - if any - personality change. Go for it. Do your tom cat and any others you get have a big favor. Get them both fixed. It's simple, makes their lives so much nicer, and puts them at less of a health risk for diseases down the road. Besides all it takes is one slip and one of them gets out and you either have a dead cat or a knocked up cat. Anyway you look at it getting them fixed helps get rid of the urges to slip out an have some fun. Celeste > I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with > me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheers, Ingrid As long as he's intact, there's a risk he'll get outside and get into some serious trouble - fights over a female in heat, the possibility of exposure to some nasty virus. I have always spayed my female cats and have had my first male kitten neutered, and I've never noticed any change in behavior. To me it's both the sensible and the kind thing to do. Just my opinion. Gail Get the cat neutered. If you don't and he gets out this world could end up with another litter of unwanted kittens. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com >I have an angel of a tomcat; he never sprays, never gets annoyed with > me, waits in the window for my return from work and even plays fetch! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheers, Ingrid > He must be altered somehow. I hate to have him neutered; I don't want > to change his nature. I'm wondering about a vasectomy for him. I'm > turning over the idea of getting a female cat and having her tubes > tied. They would still have to be indoor cats, but at least the two of > them would have a more normal life than living as eunuchs. I sure would > appreciate hearing what you think on the subject. Ingrid, I'll take a chance and assume you're serious. Rest assured your cat will be fine after neutering. Once the sex hormones are gone so is the urge. Your cat will not become frustrated or feel deprived. In fact, he'll be a calmer cat. Phil "I have found my love of cats most helpful in understanding women' --John Simon Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Health_and_Behavior/ >> They would still have to be indoor cats, but at least the two of them >> would have a more normal life than living as eunuchs. > Ingrid, > > I'll take a chance and assume you're serious. I had the same doubts. Where do people get these ideas? Could they come from never having seen the feline sex drive in action and what it does to cats?
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