Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue
CatKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

To euthanize or not: Need advice

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Gregory Bailey - 08 Jan 2005 17:42 GMT
We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.

He's been as good a pet as one could imagine and for most of his life he had
zero health problems.

For the last three or four years or so, though, he has developed a problem
of defecating outside his box, and in particular on things that happened to
be lying around in the floor.

We thought this was a behavioral problem and took all the usual approaches,
it got to where it became an infrequent event although never completely
disappeared.

A couple of years ago, we noticed that the cat began losing weight. He was
11 pounds at tops, a really fine feline specimen, then sort of gradually
started getting skinnier, down into the 7-8 pound range.

The thing was, though, he was eating pretty much constantly at the same time
he was losing weight.

Our vet suggested thyroid problems, but he tested negative for those.

Within the last six months, though, things have gone downhill fast. He has
lost down to six pounds, even though he still eats continuously, enough to
where he ought to weigh 25 pounds. He also defecates continuously, to where
he pretty much fills up a litter box in a day. He's also pretty much lost
control as far as going outside the box, he's to the point of ruining
things. He's also taken to urinating on things, in particular carpet. For
instance, there's a carpet right near his box, we'd see him go to the carpet
and squat and not even look at his box.

We recently took him to the vet and they ran bloodwork on him and again, the
thyroid (which was my first thought) turned out normal, but his liver
function tests were way out of whack, really bad.

My vet consulted with an internist in another, larger city and the internist
suspects lymphoma, even though that's supposed to make a cat anorexic by not
eating and as I said, this cat would eat as long as you put it down for him,
he's just not getting the nutrients and is basically down to skin and bones,
his coat looks terrible and he just sits and looks at you with these big,
pleading eyes.

My vet suggested that we go see this internist and have an ultrasound done
to confirm a diagnosis. My vet could do a surgical biopsy, but says he
doesn't know if the cat could handle it.

The internist is 80 miles away. And I'm a professional journalist who makes
my living with words, but I cannot put into words how badly this cat
travels, even since he was a kitten. We have to give him Valium just to take
him across town to get his shots, if we don't he invariably urinates,
defecates and vomits all over his carrier and one time his heartbeat got so
fast from traveling that he was to the point of having a coronary.

If this cat has lymphoma, we're not going to take any heroic measures to try
to prolong his life, will probably go ahead and euthanize him. Some of it is
financial considerations, but basically, this cat was a stray kitten that my
sister-in-law picked up on the side of the road, we took him in and we've
given him 14 years of life he probably would never have had, and it's been a
good life, and we're not inclined to torment him with chemo, etc., to buy
him a little more time when the end result will probably be the same.

The thing is ... we don't know if we want to take this cat on this 80-mile
journey either, because unless we stone him to the point of unconsciousness,
it's going to be torment for him as well, and if it is lymphoma we probably
will not bring him home.

But at the same time, you always wonder that it might not be lymphoma, that
it might be something else that could be treated or might be behavioral,
although his weight loss certainly wouldn't be behavioral, and you wonder if
you go ahead and have him put down, if there would be something you could've
done.

We've just got to do something, because he's wasting away before our eyes
and is ruining the house with defecation.

My wife especially is concerned that he's suffering. He doesn't appear to be
in pain, but eating and defecating constantly could certainly qualify as
suffering in some quarters. It's not much of a life.

I know there's no right answer for this, but I personally am kind of at a
loss for this because I've not had to deal with this, I've lost pets before
but it was always through accidents.

Can anybody give me any input? Would you subject this cat to this tortuous
trip, knowing that there's a strong possibility of what the end result will
be, just to cling to that last vestage of hope, or go ahead and let him go?

FYI, we have another cat who's also 14 but is in perfect health, acts like a
kitten, so we would not be without a cat in our house, although this would
be a crushing loss for us and our kids.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Mathew Kagis - 08 Jan 2005 18:03 GMT
<SNIP>

> Can anybody give me any input? Would you subject this cat to this tortuous
> trip, knowing that there's a strong possibility of what the end result will
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.

 The ultimate expression of love for your animals is when you put their
intrests ahead of your own.  I think, in your heart, you allready know what
the best course of action is.  If you're looking for a little moral support
to make it, you have it from me.  A difficult thing to go through, no doubt,
I wish you all the best.
Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Karen Chuplis - 08 Jan 2005 18:08 GMT
> <SNIP>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> to make it, you have it from me.  A difficult thing to go through, no doubt,
> I wish you all the best.

I believe Mathew has it right. I'm so sorry your little cat is doing so
poorly :(  Purrs for strength and calm.
Mary - 08 Jan 2005 19:16 GMT
> > <SNIP>
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I believe Mathew has it right. I'm so sorry your little cat is doing so
> poorly :(  Purrs for strength and calm.

Gregory, it does sound like it is time. Aside from the deaths of close
family members, I have not been through anything as hard. You write
as though you have the grace and strength to help your little one through
this.
I'm so sorry.
The Puppy Wizard - 10 Jan 2005 00:56 GMT
BWEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!

> > <SNIP>
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I believe Mathew has it right. I'm so sorry your little cat is doing so
> poorly :(  Purrs for strength and calm.
KellyH - 08 Jan 2005 18:19 GMT
> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to
> be lying around in the floor.

<snip>

What you are describing sounds similiar to what my cat Dash, who passed
about two years ago, was like.  I could not put her under anesthesia due to
a severe heart murmur, so I never got the answer as to whether or not it was
definitely lymphoma.  My vet suggested to treat the symptoms, and she was on
Prednisone and Flagyl.  Neither made much difference.  She also was
hyperthyroid and was on medication for that.
She was urinating and deficating (terrible diarrhea) all over the house,
down to five pounds, but still eating like a horse.  I opted to have her put
to sleep once it was apparent to me that she was not getting any better and
I wanted her to go before she got too bad.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Cat Protector - 08 Jan 2005 18:24 GMT
I would get a second opinion from another vet. Another thing you could also
try is a vet that practices holistic healing. When it is time to leave this
life your cat will let you know. At home is usually preferable surrounded by
loved ones. But I'd see if another vet's opinion would help first.

Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
Mary - 08 Jan 2005 20:14 GMT
> I would get a second opinion from another vet.

Sure you would. You don't even spring for decent cat food.
Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 03:40 GMT
>When it is time to leave this
>life your cat will let you know. At home is usually preferable surrounded by
>loved ones.

Some vets will come out to your car, which at least allows you to sit
with them in your lap and avoid the actual vet's office and other
animals.

I did this with my dog and cat. My mom took me to the vet. While she
went in to pay and make arrangements, I had some private time. Then,
when it was our turn, the vet came out to the van.

It was so much nicer than going in. The animals didn't have to smell
the vet office and get extra upset. I didn't have to sit there crying
in front of any kids with their new pets. And I had some private time.

Also, with my dog, she had a stroke and couldn't walk. She weighed 45
pounds, and she needed constant contact with me. If I was holding her,
she was calm. If I let go, she would thrash. So, my dad had to carry
her to the car while i held her head. Then he placed her on my lap. It
was much better for her to stay that way in the car.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Cat Protector - 10 Jan 2005 08:19 GMT
I have to wonder where your frame of mind is? A car seems a pretty bad place
to have your cat put to sleep. That's almost as cold as having it done at
the vet's office. If my cats let me know it is time I am having it done at
home filled with love and their favorite stuff nearby. My parents had one of
their dogs put to sleep this way. The vet came out to their house and had
the dog put to sleep.

Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

"Meghan Noecker" <friesian@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote in message
news:crsteo$e1i$3

> Some vets will come out to your car, which at least allows you to sit
> with them in your lap and avoid the actual vet's office and other
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Equine and Pet Photography
> http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 10:34 GMT
>I have to wonder where your frame of mind is? A car seems a pretty bad place
>to have your cat put to sleep. That's almost as cold as having it done at
>the vet's office. If my cats let me know it is time I am having it done at
>home filled with love and their favorite stuff nearby. My parents had one of
>their dogs put to sleep this way. The vet came out to their house and had
>the dog put to sleep.

Our vet doesn't make housecalls. Until today, I hadn't heard of any
vets that still do this. So, the best thing we can do is get them to
come out to the car. It is still better than going into the vet's
office.

Many vets won't even let you be in the room when they do it. So, I
guess I have always been happy that our vet has been so accomodating.

I also have to wonder, for those who come to your house, how long do
you have to wait? My vet is a 45 minute drive away. I cannot imagine
them leaving a busy practice to spend an hour and a half in the car to
put down one cat. I would assume they would have to wait until they
are leaving for the day, and that is a bit much to ask them to work
overtime, especially if they have more than one request in a day. Are
these vets in smaller towns, or vets that regularly do housecalls
rather than work in an office?

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Mary - 10 Jan 2005 18:15 GMT
> I also have to wonder, for those who come to your house, how long do
> you have to wait? My vet is a 45 minute drive away. I cannot imagine
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> --

I'm in the city of Raleigh. I called in the morning and they came
at lunch time. It is a 20 minute drive with traffic.
Ashley - 10 Jan 2005 19:22 GMT
> I also have to wonder, for those who come to your house, how long do
> you have to wait? My vet is a 45 minute drive away. I cannot imagine
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> these vets in smaller towns, or vets that regularly do housecalls
> rather than work in an office?

Last animal I know this happened to was my parent's dog, last year. The
appointment was made for 1.30pm. When Mum and I got home at 1.20pm the vet
was already there, and I think poor Dad (who was closest to Libby) was
fearing he would have to go through it by himself. The vet's clinic is about
a 10-minute drive away.

This is in Christchurch, NZ, a city of about 350,000. Most people in urban
NZ go to a vet within 10 or so minute's drive of their home, much as they do
with their GP or dentist.
Ashley - 10 Jan 2005 19:26 GMT
> I also have to wonder, for those who come to your house, how long do
> you have to wait? My vet is a 45 minute drive away. I cannot imagine
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> these vets in smaller towns, or vets that regularly do housecalls
> rather than work in an office?

Also, you appear to be thinking you look at your animal one day and think,
OK, the time has come, you need to be put down now - ie this day. That's not
the general experience. What happens is you know it's time for your animal
to go, so you make an appointment within the next few days for the vet to
call.

If we're talking an emergency, where you need to get your animal out of pain
right now, you rush it to the vet's surgery and it happens there.
Meghan Noecker - 11 Jan 2005 06:32 GMT
>> I also have to wonder, for those who come to your house, how long do
>> you have to wait? My vet is a 45 minute drive away. I cannot imagine
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>If we're talking an emergency, where you need to get your animal out of pain
>right now, you rush it to the vet's surgery and it happens there.

That is true. In all 3 of my cases, it came as a sudden thing. The
first two were elderly, and both had strokes. So, it was a matter of
declining health, and then suddenly, they were unable to walk, unable
to hold their heads up, and no good prognosis. It was something that
needed to be done today.

With the 3rd, it happened in the middle of the night, so I wasn't even
able to get him to the vet. He was a stray that my mom found at teh
side of the road. He seemed to be recovering well from his injuries,
but he was severly underweight, and he started getting sick in the 3rd
week. He went to the vet twice that week, and she wasn't too
concerned, just gave him a shot to hydrate him and one to help him
pick up weight. And she gave me some special food to see if he could
keep that done. He was at the vet the day before he died. And he took
a sudden turn for the worse late at night. Just suddenly became
listless.

I can see how it would make sense if you have the time to plan in
advance, but I have not been in a situation where you can choose the
day. It has always just arrived as this is the day that they took a
bad turn for the worse.

Also, I don't really care for the vet that is nearby. We did Jasper's
care there since he was badly injured when my mom found him, and she
took him to the closest vet. But until two years ago, we have
continued to go to the same vet as we always did, which is 45 minutes
away.

I did switch with my dog two years ago, because she had something come
up, and it was evening. My vet was closed, so I went to another vet.
They were good, so I stuck with them. But that was long after the
others were PTS.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

KellyH - 10 Jan 2005 13:48 GMT
>I have to wonder where your frame of mind is? A car seems a pretty bad
>place to have your cat put to sleep. That's almost as cold as having it
>done at the vet's office. If my cats let me know it is time I am having it
>done at home filled with love and their favorite stuff nearby. My parents
>had one of their dogs put to sleep this way. The vet came out to their
>house and had the dog put to sleep.

Why do you disagree with everyone that does not think exactly like you?  It
sounded odd, but after she described it, it was clearly the right choice for
her.

I don't know that I would have my cat put to sleep at home.  Like Meghan
said, do they come out right away?  What if your cat is like a couple of
mine, and runs from strangers?  When we had Dash PTS, she was so used to
going to the vet by then, it really didn't phase her.  I also really wanted
the vet who had been treating her to do it.  If it was a housecall vet, it
would have been some strange person I  and Dash didn't know.  Also, not to
be gross, but it's a little messy sometimes when an animal, or person for
that matter, dies.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Ashley - 10 Jan 2005 19:24 GMT
> I don't know that I would have my cat put to sleep at home.  Like Meghan
> said, do they come out right away?  What if your cat is like a couple of
> mine, and runs from strangers?

You contain her in a room before the vet arrives.

When we had Dash PTS, she was so used to
> going to the vet by then, it really didn't phase her.  I also really
> wanted the vet who had been treating her to do it.  If it was a housecall
> vet, it would have been some strange person I  and Dash didn't know.
> Also, not to be gross, but it's a little messy sometimes when an animal,
> or person for that matter, dies.

Not within the first few minutes after death, it's not. You can cuddle your
animal while it dies, then take it outside afterwards.
KellyH - 10 Jan 2005 19:30 GMT
> Not within the first few minutes after death, it's not. You can cuddle
> your animal while it dies, then take it outside afterwards.

When Dash died, she let out a bunch of diarrhea a couple minutes after
passing.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Mary - 10 Jan 2005 19:54 GMT
> > Not within the first few minutes after death, it's not. You can cuddle
> > your animal while it dies, then take it outside afterwards.
>
> When Dash died, she let out a bunch of diarrhea a couple minutes after
> passing.

The vets just had me put an old towel under my cat, but then she had
not been eating much for a while. They took the towel when they took
her.
Ashley - 10 Jan 2005 20:41 GMT
>> Not within the first few minutes after death, it's not. You can cuddle
>> your animal while it dies, then take it outside afterwards.
>
> When Dash died, she let out a bunch of diarrhea a couple minutes after
> passing.

Which gives you time to get her outside.

No such probs with Libby or with Sam, my sister's cat who was put down a
couple of years ago. But, anyway, you make allowances for such things. In
Libby's case, she was put down in her yard (and it was *her* yard!),
outside, so not a problem. Sam was put down while Pip held him, in their
conservatory. Two steps and they were outside.
-L. - 11 Jan 2005 00:31 GMT
> > Not within the first few minutes after death, it's not. You can cuddle
> > your animal while it dies, then take it outside afterwards.
>
> When Dash died, she let out a bunch of diarrhea a couple minutes after
> passing.

That's *really* common - feces and urine.  When we euthed cats at the
vet we always had towels under them for that very reason.  The muscles
just release.

-L.
Mary - 10 Jan 2005 18:14 GMT
> I have to wonder where your frame of mind is? A car seems a pretty bad place
> to have your cat put to sleep. That's almost as cold as having it done at
> the vet's office. If my cats let me know it is time I am having it done at
> home filled with love and their favorite stuff nearby. My parents had one of
> their dogs put to sleep this way. The vet came out to their house and had
> the dog put to sleep.

CP, you are getting your knickers in a knot much more than usual.
Could it be male menopause?
zuzu22@webtv.net - 08 Jan 2005 19:30 GMT
I think you owe it to your cat to take him to the internist and get a
diagnosis, or at least some answers. Your cat may very well have
something treatable, and euthanizing him when you don't know what is
going on and eliminating the possibility that he could be treated and
still have a good quality of life is not fair to the cat. High liver
values could mean any number of things, and the fact that he still has
an appetite is "good."
I've had to euthanize many cats over the last several years and I've
never made that decision without fully investigating what's behind the
particular cat's issues first.

Certainly, there are always going to be people here that will easily
tell you to say goodbye without a second thought, and IMNSHO they should
be slapped for even thinking this should be an option when you obviously
have so little information about what is going on with your cat.

To make your cat's trip to the specialist easier, a very simple thing
you can do is completely cover the cat carrier so he cannot see out from
the time he goes in it until the time you take him out for his exam.
Putting a soft towel in and spraying it with Feliway an hour before the
trip will also help to keep your cat calmer.

It may be that the results of the ultrasound indicate that there is
nothing to be done and you will have to make a decision, but there is
also a very real possibility that you'll get answers that can help your
cat and result in medical treatment that will get him feeling better. Do
you really want to make such a *final* decision as euthanasia based on a
guess? I just can't believe that you do from the way you write about
your cat as it is obvious you care for him deeply. Please, get the
ultrasound so you can make an *informed* decision.

Megan



                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Ashley - 08 Jan 2005 20:08 GMT
> If this cat has lymphoma, we're not going to take any heroic measures to
> try
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> in pain, but eating and defecating constantly could certainly qualify as
> suffering in some quarters. It's not much of a life.

I've snipped your post to the paragraphs where you possibly give the answer
you've already worked out. But now you're concerned it might not be the
right answer - which is entirely natural.

I believe it is the right answer and the best thing to do for this cat - and
for your family - is to end the suffering. A very sad thing to do, but it
appears necessary.
Cathy Friedmann - 08 Jan 2005 20:22 GMT
> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> to confirm a diagnosis. My vet could do a surgical biopsy, but says he
> doesn't know if the cat could handle it.

Another possibility - besides a sonogram, is a core needle biopsy.  I had a
cat w/ an acute liver problem when she was 11.  She was too ill for a
surgical biopsy, so my vet also referred me to an internist/oncologist, who
is about 1 hour 15 minutes from here.  Once at the internist's, he gave her
a muscle relaxant prior to the tests, & they proved not to be stressful for
her.  In my cat's case, the tests showed that she did not have liver cancer,
& a (successful) treatment program was begun.

I see below that you cat is a terrible traveler - unfortunately, that will
have to play a part in your decision as to whether or not you should consult
the internist.

Cathy

> The internist is 80 miles away. And I'm a professional journalist who makes
> my living with words, but I cannot put into words how badly this cat
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
MaryL - 08 Jan 2005 20:25 GMT
> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> so
> fast from traveling that he was to the point of having a coronary.

<snip>

Gregory,

I think you should see the internist and have an ultrasound before making
any decisions.  At this point, you really don't know *what* the problem
is -- therefore, you don't know if it is something that is beyond
treatment - or - something that could be treated once it is properly
diagnosed.  Ultrasound is not invasive, so you would not be putting your cat
through a painful procedure.  I realize that you said it is difficult to
travel with this cat.  I took Duffy to a feline ophthalmologist (one-way
trip of 250 miles) shortly after I adopted him.  I dreaded the trip because
he was newly adopted, blind, and had been incredibly frightened when I drove
home with him after adoption.  I followed some advice that I was given, and
it proved to be *very good* advice.  That is, I sprayed Feliway in his
carrier about half an hour before we left, and I draped a towel loosely over
the carrier to reduce road sounds somewhat (since he is blind, it did not
have any effect on what he would "see").  He cried for half an hour or 45
minutes and then settled down and rested for the rest of the trip.  I would
like to see you do somethng similar with your cat.  As I said earlier, you
simply don't have enough information at this point to make a decision of
this magnitude.  I have also been through the trauma of working with a loved
cat through 3 years of declining liver and renal failure (complicated by
IBD) -- but it is 3 years that I would never give up.  Amber was not
expected to live more than a few weeks at the time of diagnosis, but she
beat the odds through good care, good medical treatment, and a lot of
research that led to changes in dietary management.  She was content and
comfortable for most of that time -- but it is important to get the correct
diagnosis first so that you can follow an appropriate course of treatment.
If the news actually is very bad and euthanasia is your only viable
alternative, at least you will have the comfort of knowing that your did the
best for your cat.

MaryL
Cat Protector - 08 Jan 2005 21:32 GMT
I know I am in the minority here but if it were my cats I would definitely
exhaust all options before considering euthanasia. A second opinion is
always a good idea especially if something might be treatable even if one
vet says it can't. Also, some cats respond to alternative treatments such as
hollistic medicine and such.

Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

> Gregory,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> MaryL
Annie Wxill - 09 Jan 2005 16:04 GMT
>I know I am in the minority here but if it were my cats I would definitely
>exhaust all options before considering euthanasia. ...

C.P.,
Umm, I think this is a bit of an insult to participants in this group.  I
believe that an overwhelming majority here would do everything in our power
for our cats before considering euthanasia.
So many people here have gone through incredible efforts to deal with
various problems, all the time trying to balance what is best for the cat.
Sometimes it is difficult to know what the options are. Knowing the options,
the difficult dilemma is to determine if you are doing something *for* your
cat or *to* your cat.  Each situation is different.
Annie
Sherry - 09 Jan 2005 17:19 GMT
><catprotector@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:SjYDd.9431$2_4.1351@okepread06...
>>I know I am in the minority here but if it were my cats I would definitely
>>exhaust all options before considering euthanasia. ..

You're not in the minority.
Kelly - 08 Jan 2005 21:08 GMT
I'm so sorry about your situation.  I lost a cat to lymphoma, although he
was showing different symptoms.  He would eat, but would vomit almost
everything up.  His digestive tract just wasn't working the way it should.
The vet took surgical biopsies and it ended up being lymphoma and we put him
to sleep 3 days after the surgery.  He was 10 years.

It sounds like your cats intestine is not working properly to extract
sufficient nutrients from the food, and thus your kitty is suffering from
lack of food even though he keeps eating.  This is definitely indicative of
lymphoma, and is much more obvious than the symptoms my cat was exhibiting.
The question of euthanizing is a question of the quality of life.... is your
cat living a normal and happy life?  In my personal opinion, he's not
getting any nutrition so I would be inclined to answer no, but this is a
decision that you must make with your wife.

Good luck,
Kelly

> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
shagrat_13@hotmail.com - 09 Jan 2005 02:30 GMT
I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
terrible one, as it is.
Mary - 09 Jan 2005 02:33 GMT
> I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
> to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
> terrible one, as it is.

Have you ever watched a sick and dying animal you love suffer?
Cat man - 09 Jan 2005 21:32 GMT
no, and i hope i never will
MaryL - 09 Jan 2005 05:18 GMT
>I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
> to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
> terrible one, as it is.

In this case, I advised getting a second opinion before making this
decision.  However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that animals
should never be euthanized.  I have had to make this terrible decision in
the past.  It was an incredibly difficult and traumatic choice, but I
considered it to be a final act of love.  Our beloved pets should not be
forced to endure pain and loss of bodily functions when it becomes clear
that there is no hope for recovery or any quality of life.  We owe it to
them to make that final difficult decision (and to make the final passage as
free of stress and pain as possible).

MaryL
Cat Protector - 09 Jan 2005 05:54 GMT
If any of my cats let me know they wants to go after being ill and in pain
(all of them are healthy), then I will probably do so to end a life of
suffering and pain. I'd probably have it done at home though so I can
surround them with love and have them know it is ok for them to leave.

Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

>>I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
>> to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> MaryL
-L. - 09 Jan 2005 06:40 GMT
> >I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
> > to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> should never be euthanized.  I have had to make this terrible decision in
> the past.  It was an incredibly difficult and traumatic choice, but I

> considered it to be a final act of love.  Our beloved pets should not be
> forced to endure pain and loss of bodily functions when it becomes clear
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> MaryL

I only wish we had the same option for our human companions and family
members. :(

-L.
Mathew Kagis - 09 Jan 2005 09:41 GMT
<SNIP>

> I only wish we had the same option for our human companions and family
> members. :(
>
> -L.

Oh, my....That's a BIG can 'o worms.  I agree with you, But you're likely to
start a big debate on the topic.... Probably deserves it's own thread.
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
Monique Y. Mudama - 10 Jan 2005 21:25 GMT
><SNIP>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Oh, my....That's a BIG can 'o worms.  I agree with you, But you're likely to
> start a big debate on the topic.... Probably deserves it's own thread.

I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind trapped in
a body without the ability to move, or completely losing my mental abilities.

Either way, I agree with L.

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

Meghan Noecker - 11 Jan 2005 06:32 GMT
>I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind trapped in
>a body without the ability to move, or completely losing my mental abilities.

Same here. The first sounds like sure torture, yet the idea of losing
my mind doesn't sound very good either. I think if I could chose, I
would rather be dead.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Phil P. - 11 Jan 2005 09:28 GMT
> I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind trapped in
> a body without the ability to move, or completely losing my mental abilities.

If you completely lost your mental abilities you wouldn't know you
completely lost your mental abilities - so life would probably be grand.

Look at Stephen Hawkins for what a fully-functioning mind trapped in a body
without the ability to move can do.

Phil
Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jan 2005 14:58 GMT
>> I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind trapped
> in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Look at Stephen Hawkins for what a fully-functioning mind trapped in a body
> without the ability to move can do.

Mr. Hawkins can communicate; he's not utterly motionless.

Anyway, I'm not saying he shouldn't be alive.  And while I'm not dumb as a
rock, I don't think I'll be making the same sorts of contributions that he
does =P

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

Phil P. - 11 Jan 2005 15:18 GMT
> >> I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind trapped
> > in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Mr. Hawkins can communicate; he's not utterly motionless.

I guess we have different interpretations of "the ability to move... "
Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jan 2005 16:31 GMT
>> >> I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind
> trapped
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I guess we have different interpretations of "the ability to move... "

You know the song "One" by Metallica?  That's the kind of situation I meant in
my first post.  Basically a brain in a jar.

However, I don't think I'd handle paralysis very well at all.  I take great
enjoyment in all sorts of activities.  If I found myself unable to move most
of my body, I'm not sure how I'd handle it.  Not well, most likely.

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

Phil P. - 11 Jan 2005 18:15 GMT
> >> >> I don't know what scares me worse: having a fully-functioning mind
> > trapped
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> enjoyment in all sorts of activities.  If I found myself unable to move most
> of my body, I'm not sure how I'd handle it.  Not well, most likely.

You'd be amazed how well you'd adapt if you had to.  I have several friends
who sustained traumatic amputations years ago and wanted to die.  Today,
they're thankful they're alive.

Its easy to give up - but it takes courage to go on.

Phil
Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jan 2005 18:31 GMT
> You'd be amazed how well you'd adapt if you had to.  I have several friends
> who sustained traumatic amputations years ago and wanted to die.  Today,
> they're thankful they're alive.
>
> Its easy to give up - but it takes courage to go on.

It's always amazing what you can do if you have to.  But, interesting as it
might be, I'd rather not have to face that situation.

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

Phil P. - 12 Jan 2005 06:50 GMT
> > You'd be amazed how well you'd adapt if you had to.  I have several friends
> > who sustained traumatic amputations years ago and wanted to die.  Today,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It's always amazing what you can do if you have to.  But, interesting as it
> might be, I'd rather not have to face that situation.

Neither would I!

P
KellyH - 11 Jan 2005 19:29 GMT
> You'd be amazed how well you'd adapt if you had to.  I have several
> friends
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Phil

I watched my grandfather die from a combination of Parkinson's and
Alzheimer's.  He lost the ability to communicate and was basically a
vegetable towards the end.  I wish it was legal to put him out of his
misery.

And it's Stephen Hawking, not Hawkins. He has a lot of specialized equipment
and care the average Joe probably would not have access to.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

MaryL - 11 Jan 2005 20:05 GMT
>> You'd be amazed how well you'd adapt if you had to.  I have several
>> friends
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> vegetable towards the end.  I wish it was legal to put him out of his
> misery.

I watched a neighbor go through the same process (also Alzheimer's).  There
was nothing "dignified" about her death.  She eventually did not know who
she was or who her family were, so it may be that she was not even aware of
her terrible (in fact, mindless) state at that time -- but she was certainly
well aware of the inexorable progression of this dreadful disease earlier
on, and it was truly agonizing for both her and her family.  Her husband
insisted on keeping her at home and caring for her himself, and he destroyed
his own health in the process.  Death was actually a blessing.  This is an
area that is extremely controversial, but I have often said that we treat
our pets with more kindness than our families when facing a situation like
that.  Everyone in my family has a living will, but even that would not help
until it became a question of artificial life support.

MaryL
Cheryl - 11 Jan 2005 23:02 GMT
> I watched a neighbor go through the same process (also
> Alzheimer's).  There was nothing "dignified" about her death.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> but even that would not help until it became a question of
> artificial life support.

We watched my grandfather for about 7 years progressively getting
worse. He had brain damage from a clogged artery and by the time it
was discovered it was inoperable for fear of stroke, and/or heart
attack. My father's father. It was hard to tell exactly what he
understood about what was happening to him because he couldn't
speak or even walk or take care of himself, but sometimes he'd get
a tear in his eye. My father tells us that if he gets like that he
wants to be taken out in the backyard and shot. He is only partly
kidding.

Signature

Cheryl

Meghan Noecker - 12 Jan 2005 08:23 GMT
>his own health in the process.  Death was actually a blessing.  This is an
>area that is extremely controversial, but I have often said that we treat
>our pets with more kindness than our families when facing a situation like
>that.  Everyone in my family has a living will, but even that would not help
>until it became a question of artificial life support.

My mom put me in charge of her living will. I asked her why since I
don't want that responsibility. She said my dad would be too
emotional, and I would be better at making the decision. And my sister
is worse than my dad. My mom had to make the desicion for my sister's
cats because my sister couldn't do it.

And as you said, that only happens when it is a question of life
support. My parents are against euthanasia for people, yet they
support it for animals.

I understand the fear that people wuld be considered unwanted or
disaposable. There should certainly be limits on it. but I can't see
keeping somebody a vegetable for years, or making them suffer.

My boss has been waiting 3 weeks for her mother to die. She is taking
off work left and right to be at the hospital with her mother. And her
father has taken a downturn as well. Who knows how long her mother
will linger on, too doped up to be aware of anything, let alone enjoy
life.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker - 12 Jan 2005 08:12 GMT
>If you completely lost your mental abilities you wouldn't know you
>completely lost your mental abilities - so life would probably be grand.

It might be part of the time. But they spend mnths or years getting to
that point. During that time, they know they are losing their
abilities. They also spend quite a bit of time being confused, getting
lost, and some get abused. And causing that pain to all my friends and
family? None of that sounds very good.

I have an older co-worker/friend who has memory problems that have
become more noticeable, to me anyway. Just a few weeks ago, we were
doing our regular routine, and she changed it. I went to the bathroom
and came back to find her doing my task. I thought she wanted a
change, so I started doing her tasks. Later, I was working on one
task, and she asked me to do something. It was a small cleaning task,
no rush. I figured I would finish the current task and do it next. I
had half an hour left in my shift, and the two together would take 15
minutes. Before I finished. a customer came up, and I stopped to help
the customer. While i was finishing that customer, my co-worker went
over and did the task she had asked me to do. I remember wondering why
she didn't give me a chance to do it.

At the end of the shift, she yelled at me because I hadn't done what
she asked me to do. I told her I was helping a customer - she didn't
give me a chance. She stood there and insisted that I had finished the
customer and gone back to the other task *before* she went and did it
herself. It shouldn't have mattered which I did first, but still, she
insisted that I had finished the customer when I hadn't. And after
more discussion, it turned out she was angry for two hours because I
was doing her tasks. She insisted that she started my task because i
was doing her task, but she was already doing my task when I returned
from the bathroom. It was really strange, because we both strongly
believe that we are correct. Yet, our claims directly conflicted with
each other. We both said we did the other person's task because they
were doing ours. So, one of us had cognitive problems that night. And
it caused a lot of heartache for both of us.

There have been some other times where she didn't know something that
I had previously told her. I really worry about her. And i know now
not to react to her memory problems and just try to go along with
them.

>Look at Stephen Hawkins for what a fully-functioning mind trapped in a body
>without the ability to move can do.

Amazing, yet very sad. And not very typical. Most people with strokes
and other disabling diseases are not able to do much other than watch
tv and wait for people to help them.

Also, dogs and cats are a different story. What is a dog going to do
if he can't walk? Just lay around and think? What if that dog is also
blind?

I'm not saying that these people can't make something of their lives,
but I would not want to be put into one of those situations. They
sound like torture to me. Like being trapped in a dark room, with no
way to ever escape. Eternity in hell.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Cat man - 09 Jan 2005 21:34 GMT
i understand what you are saying, euthanization is not always bad
Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 03:47 GMT
>I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
>to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
>terrible one, as it is.

Have you had one die at home?

I have, and it was the worst experience of my life. Convulsions and
vomiting for half an hour.

Either he was aware and in severe trauma, or he had no clue I was
there for him. Either way was horrible.

This happened several years ago, before we had a 24 vet handy. I was
praying he would make it to morning to go to the vet.

The *only* good thing about that experience is that I learned that I
did the right thing by euthanizing my first cat and dog. They both
died in my arms, peacefully. They were not in any pain, and they knew
they were loved.

There is nothing peaceful and humane about letting somebody suffer a
painful death. I would have done anything that night to spare Jasper
that agony.

That idea of having your pets die at home, peacefully, is a MYTH. We
owe our animals something better than that.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Cathy Friedmann - 10 Jan 2005 04:16 GMT
<snipped>
> That idea of having your pets die at home, peacefully, is a MYTH. We
> owe our animals something better than that.

Unless one - & the animal - simply lucks out.  A couple of my sister's pets
have died in their sleep - peaceful deaths.  But the others were euthanized
to prevent a potentially awful death, as have mine.

Cathy
Mathew Kagis - 10 Jan 2005 04:47 GMT
> <snipped>
> > That idea of having your pets die at home, peacefully, is a MYTH. We
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Cathy

Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
it's 'sleeper shot' at home?
Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary - 10 Jan 2005 04:53 GMT
"Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote>
> Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
> it's 'sleeper shot' at home?

Matthew--in September of 2001, my sweet Gnarly, age 20, was
"put to sleep" on my bed. She was in similar shape to your cat--
I had waited too long and she had just lost control of everything.
Still, she slept on the corner of my bed on towells I changed.
I had used this vet for years and they were very compassionate.
They sent a vet and a tech and did not even charge me extra.
Call your vet, and let him or her know when you feel you cannot
allow your cat to suffer any longer, and tell them you feel it will be
too upsetting for your cat and for you to bring her in. Surely
someone in your area will do it, if not your vet.I know of
several vets who do this in the Raleigh, NC area. (When I
saw that they charged only $45 for it, I wrote a check to
the practice to do with as they wish, just for their kindness.)
If I had to do it again I sure would do it this way. I had my arms
tented around her and held her head and spoke to her and petted
her as she died, so she had my scent and her home all around her,
not scary vet smells.
Mathew Kagis - 10 Jan 2005 05:16 GMT
> "Mathew Kagis" <winesnob@telus.net> wrote>
> > Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> her as she died, so she had my scent and her home all around her,
> not scary vet smells.

Mary: You misunderstand, it's not my cat that's dying.... I was just
wondering about options for Gregory.... But it's a nice tale.  I've had one
cat put down in my adult life.... at the time of the shot he was too far
gone to know where he was... But it was a kindness, he's buried beside my
flower garden.

Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary - 10 Jan 2005 05:40 GMT
> Mary: You misunderstand, it's not my cat that's dying.... I was just
> wondering about options for Gregory....

Sorry, long weekend. :-) I thought I was *talking* to Gregory!
Time for bed ...
Ashley - 10 Jan 2005 05:31 GMT
> Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
> it's 'sleeper shot' at home?

Common practice in New Zealand. I was quite astonished when I found out vets
in the States didn't do it. Indeed, I don't know *anyone* in NZ who's taken
their pet to the vets to be euthanised in NZ over the past few years. In all
cases, the vet has come to the home.
Cat Protector - 10 Jan 2005 08:24 GMT
My parents found a vet that did this type of house call. He came out and
gave the dog the a shot and she went to sleep peacefully. I am planning on
having this done with my own cats should they fall ill and let me know they
wish to go. This way I can be with them and hold them.
Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

> Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
> it's 'sleeper shot' at home?
Kelly - 10 Jan 2005 23:55 GMT
> Has anyone ever found a vet who does house calls?  Could the cat recieve
> it's 'sleeper shot' at home?

My vet does house calls for free if you live within the city.
I thought about when the next time comes (hopefully not for a long while)
maybe having him come to my house, but considering I can't even go into the
room at the vets office where my last cat was euthanized, I'm not sure how I
would feel about this afterwards.  I think being in the room where his last
breath was would haunt me for a long time.  Although I think it would be
much more peaceful for the pet.

Kelly
Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 06:42 GMT
><snipped>
>> That idea of having your pets die at home, peacefully, is a MYTH. We
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>have died in their sleep - peaceful deaths.  But the others were euthanized
>to prevent a potentially awful death, as have mine.

There are rare cases, but it isn't typical and certainly isn't
guranteed. My grandmother died peacefully in her sleep, we assume, but
then nobody was actually watching her at the time.

With Jasper, it was horrible. And I still rate it as the worst ever
event in my life. Way worse than having the other two put down.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 04:00 GMT
>I am against euthanizing cats, and animals period but maybe you have
>to. I'd rather die than put my cat down but it is your decision, a
>terrible one, as it is.

How would you feel about a dog who is blind, half dead, and now unable
to walk because of a stroke?

What kind of life is that?

Wouldn't that be cruel to let a dog spend its days, just laying there
without being able to enjoy anything? And without multiple baths a
day, the dog would be in its own excrement. How nice is that?

There comes a time when the quality of life is not enough. It is own
selfishness that keeps us from doing the right thing and letting them
go. I did not give up on my dog when she lost her sight or lost part
of her hearing, or even when she got athritis. I found new ways for
her to play and I found relief for her aches and pains. But I am no
miracle worker. I cannot make a stroke go away. I cannot make her walk
when she cannot. The vet had no suggestions for treatment, and this
was already an elderly dog with problems. To force her to exist when
there was nothing left for her would be to torture her.

It is a big decision and very important. Certainly not something to be
taken lightly, but it should not be ignored either. We have to do what
is best for the animal. And sometimes that means letting go.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Monique Y. Mudama - 10 Jan 2005 21:19 GMT
> It is a big decision and very important. Certainly not something to be taken
> lightly, but it should not be ignored either. We have to do what is best for
> the animal. And sometimes that means letting go.

Yes.

My dog had really bad arthritis as he got older.  He had less muscle control
and had fallen down the stairs to my second-floor apartment a few times, so I
tried to carry him, but he was a 50-lb dog unused to being carried, and it was
obvious that being carried caused him great pain.  It was the only time he
ever growled or snapped at me.  But he was so afraid of the stairs that he
wouldn't walk up them.

I wanted to send him to live with my parents in NC, where the weather is
warmer and the house entrance is on the ground floor.  He'd lived with my
parents most of his life, anyway, as we got him when I was nine.  My parents
were visiting relatives in Germany, so my brother took him for a few weeks, so
that he'd be able to at least walk outside without stairs.  Anyway, one day,
my brother woke up and found Puma on the floor with a complete lack of muscle
control.  He'd completely soiled himself and couldn't even stand up.  My
brother took Puma to the vet, who said that we could not treat him and that
the kindest thing would be to euthanize him.  Unfortunately, my brother wasn't
able to reach me, so he made the decision himself.  He tells me that in those
moments after the shot, he could see Puma's body relax and could tell how much
pain Puma had been experiencing for so long.  It was the right decision.

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

Meghan Noecker - 11 Jan 2005 06:32 GMT
>> It is a big decision and very important. Certainly not something to be taken
>> lightly, but it should not be ignored either. We have to do what is best for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>ever growled or snapped at me.  But he was so afraid of the stairs that he
>wouldn't walk up them.

We had a similar situation. When we lived on a farm in Iowa, we had a
collie, and he somehow got up wrong one time and fell down and broke
his leg. It never healed right, so he limped and had bad arthritis
after that. We built a ramp for the outside door that made going in
and out fine. But there was one time when he got down into the
basement when my dad was out of town. I was probably 11 at the time,
and my mom and I could not haul him up the stairs. I could now, even
if it meant tying him to a board and sliding him. But back then, I was
young and dumb, and my mom was not fit and never thought of a way to
do it. So, he was stuck in our basement for 3 days, and we just
cleaned the messes and put down papers. My dad got him up whe he got
back.

We probably had him about a year longer, but his leg got worse and
worse, so we had to let him go. He just couldn't be comfortable
anymore.

My other dog, would lose control after stairways, so we had to make
sure she didn't down to my room unless she had just been outside.
Otherwise, she would pee in my room within a minute or two. I just
started keeping the basement door closed to prevent accidents. And I
had to help her come back up. She was heavy, but I could pick up her
hind end (like a wheelbarrow) and she would walk the front end. It
worked well for both of us.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jan 2005 18:29 GMT
> We probably had him about a year longer, but his leg got worse and worse, so
> we had to let him go. He just couldn't be comfortable anymore.

I really wish I'd lost the custody battle.  Puma lived with my parents while I
was away at college.  I paid rent to live in the basement for a while, but
then my parents moved to coastal NC and I found an apartment.  My parents felt
it would be best for Puma to live with them, where he would have a yard as
he'd had all his life.  I argued it would be best for him to live with me, as
my parents would be taking frequent, extended trips and would have to have
friends care for the dog.  In fact, though, I believe I was just trying to be
a responsible pet owner.  I felt that I had let my parents carry the burden of
caring for *my* dog, and it was now time for me to be an adult.  Honestly,
though, Puma was more accustomed to my parents than to me.

Well, I won, so Puma, who spent most of his life running around a fairly large
yard, was stuck in an apartment most of the day.  In his old age, the stair
approach and the bitter cold of Virginia took their toll.  I'm sure that Puma
would have been better off living at my parents' house, running around the
yard, playing by the creek, and generally living out his old age as he
deserved.  I was too busy adjusting to the pressures of "real life" to take
the best care of him, though I did try.  I don't think I realized that a dog
could take arthritis medication; in fact, I'm not sure I realized there was
such a thing for humans.  I'm much more proactive about researching health
issues now.

Ah well.  One of these days, I would love to have a huge furball of the canine
variety, but it won't be until I am sure that I can care for him and won't
have the regrets that I do about Puma.

Signature

monique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eros was adopted!  Eros has a home now!  *cheer!*

-L. - 09 Jan 2005 06:36 GMT
If you aren't going to treat lymphoma, why test for it?  he obviously
has something seriously wrong.   If you can't alleviate the cat's
suffering, and have in in a situation where his inability to control
himself is managable, then it might be time to make the decision, as
heartbreaking as it may be.  Here's a link that might help:

http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com/makingthedecision.html

FWIW, I was in a similar situation (possible lymphoma) with one of my
cats a year ago or so, and it turned out not to be as serious, but I
still went through hell trying to decide what to do since I wasn't
going to treat lymphoma either.  I opted to bring him home, treat him
for what I thought was a soft blockage (it was - hair) and nursed him
through it.  No way my cat would have made it through exploratory, and
I wasn't going to do anything if it was cancer, so I did what I thought
was best.  Hope you can figure out a game-plan that works for you as
well.

Also, try getting him a new, larger litter box - plastic retains odor
over time and he may just be disgusted by the box (if it's been around
more than a year or so).

Good luck,

-L.
Gregory Bailey - 09 Jan 2005 15:12 GMT
We've changed the box, the old one had gotten pretty grotty. We have not
changed the litter brand. Each of our two cats has his own litter box, large
size.

I posted above that I'm going to contact the internist and talk about
things, and my inclination right now is to have the test done, (a.) to
confirm whether it is lymphoma, so that we'd know for sure and wouldn't have
any doubts if we decided to put him down, and (b.) in the hope that it might
be something else less serious and/or treatable.

> If you aren't going to treat lymphoma, why test for it?  he obviously
> has something seriously wrong.   If you can't alleviate the cat's
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> -L.
Phil P. - 09 Jan 2005 13:20 GMT
> We have a 14-year-old neutered male cat, black.
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> trip, knowing that there's a strong possibility of what the end result will
> be, just to cling to that last vestage of hope, or go ahead and let him go?

Let me it put this way: Wouldn't you endure a few hours of discomfort and
stress if it might save your life?  I don't know about you, but I sure as
hell would.  My cats deserve nothing less - doesn't yours?

If travelling affects your cat as adversely as you've stated, your local vet
can easily provide a sedative. Where there's a will there's a way. Your cat
has the will all you need to provide is the way.  Don't ever attribute human
characteristics to a cat; the have much more courage and a much stronger
will.

If you don't go the distance for your cat, you'll second guess and regret
your decision for the rest of your life.  Can you live with that?
Gregory Bailey - 09 Jan 2005 15:20 GMT
The vet has provided sedatives for this cat before. The thing is, we have to
stone him to the point of unconsciousness simply to get him across town for
his shots. Unless he's stoned to the point of unconsciousness for the entire
80-mile journey we're facing to have the ultrasound done, I'm not
exaggerating over overstating things when I say that I have serious doubts,
in his present condition, that he'll survive the trip down there.

We're willing to go the extra mile within reason for our cats. We have done
that, many times, when we really couldn't afford it, being that we have two
children who also have to be fed and housed as well as clothed and educated.

I would be a liar if I denied that there was a financial consideration to
our reluctance to seek heroic treatment, chemo, etc., for this cat if the
lymphoma diagnosis is accurate. However, more than anything, I have spent
hours scouring the Internet and I have yet to find anything that says that
such treatment will do anything more than buy a few more days or months.
This cat is 14 years old. My wife's sister picked him up literally on the
side of the road as a kitten, scared and starving, and we took him in. We've
given him 14 years of life and love that he most likely would not have
gotten if that hadn't happened. I do not second-guess my belief that if he
has lymphoma, letting him go would be going the extra mile for him.

> Let me it put this way: Wouldn't you endure a few hours of discomfort and
> stress if it might save your life?  I don't know about you, but I sure as
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> If you don't go the distance for your cat, you'll second guess and regret
> your decision for the rest of your life.  Can you live with that?
Phil P. - 09 Jan 2005 17:25 GMT
I do not second-guess my belief that if he
> has lymphoma, letting him go would be going the extra mile for him.

***IF*** he has lymphoma.  You don't ***KNOW*** whether he has lymphoma or
not.

Sorry, Pal, killing a cat based on a hunch is unjustifiable.

> > Let me it put this way: Wouldn't you endure a few hours of discomfort and
> > stress if it might save your life?  I don't know about you, but I sure as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> > If you don't go the distance for your cat, you'll second guess and regret
> > your decision for the rest of your life.  Can you live with that?
Gregory Bailey - 09 Jan 2005 19:53 GMT
Apparently, I did not make myself clear. My inclination ... and I intend to
call the internist in the morning to discuss this matter ... is to have the
testing done, to try and confirm what is going on before any decision is
made. Once we get that information ... not on a hunch ... we will proceed
accordingly. And proceding accordingly to my wife and I, we have already
made this decision and are committed to it as painful as it is, is that if
this cat does have lymphoma or any other kind of malignancy to where
anything we do for him would just be prolonging the inevitable, we are not
going to pursue heroic, expensive and uncomfortable treatment for him, we're
going to let him go.

Kill a cat? Well, yes, certainly the end result of euthanasia is killing a
cat. However, I doubt that the folks here who have had to make that decision
... and as I said initially, although I've had pets throughout my life from
childhood on up who've died, a couple having to be euthanized but most of
them being killed by cars (we lived in a rural area), this is the first time
this decision has ever been my (and my wife's) call ... would look at it in
such stark terms. Animals certainly have instincts for survival. When it's
time to die, though, don't they also have the instinct to go out to a place
in the woods and die? Should we allow them to do that because it's the
natural order of things?

One of the pets of my past who had to be euthanized was a cat who had feline
leukemia. I personally nursed this cat for two years with all kinds of
vitamins, herbal stuff, fed him nothing but liver to try to build up his
blood, and kept him alive for that time when the vet had only given him six
months. But then the leukemia got the best of him. We let him out because he
loved being outdoors, he was an indoor/outdoor cat, and he went off into the
woods and when we found him, he was lying there and it was obvious that he'd
gone off into the woods to die. Which again I guess is a natural instinct
for felines; don't lions and tigers do it? My mom picked him up and brought
him out, and the next day took him to be euthanized. Should we have left him
alone to his instincts, or was it not an act of love for a human to step in
and make things easier for him?

>  I do not second-guess my belief that if he
> > has lymphoma, letting him go would be going the extra mile for him.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> regret
> > > your decision for the rest of your life.  Can you live with that?
Kelly - 09 Jan 2005 20:34 GMT
Hi Gregory,

I feel badly that you feel the need to defend yourself to certain people in
this newsgroup. Please, do the right thing that is correct for YOUR
situation and YOUR kitty.  Only you know your cat and your abilities in this
situation.  You have to recognize that this is a cat newsgroup.  Some
obsessed pet owners go way too far with treatment for their pets, and
instead of ending suffering, they prolong it.  I am vehemently opposed to
prolonging such suffering, and some people end up having a a destructive
love for their pets that creates a blindness to their suffering.  Don't let
the newsgroup make you feel guilty.  Go ahead with the second opinion and
when the time comes, you will know what's right, not anyone in this
newsgroup.

Kelly

> Apparently, I did not make myself clear. My inclination ... and I intend
> to
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>> regret
>> > > your decision for the rest of your life.  Can you live with that?
zuzu22@webtv.net - 09 Jan 2005 21:51 GMT
<snip accusation that newsgroup members want to prolong a cat's
suffering.>

Gee, Kelly, your comprehension skills are still lacking. Not a single
person posting to this thread recommended anything that would "prolong
suffering."  Those of us advocating for this cat are in agreement that
killing the cat based on "hunch" is wrong, especially when it still has
a good appetite and up to this point very little has been done to find
the cause of his weight loss and increased liver values. Getting an
ultrasound (which is non-invasive and an easy procedure for cats to deal
with) to determine what's wrong so an *informed* decision can be made on
whether to treat or euthanize would be in the best interests of a cat
that obviously still has a will to live. It doesn't get much simpler
than that, and I haven't seen anyone disagree with the owner's not
wanting to treat lymphoma *if* that is the diagnosis.
Next time you want to make accusations, it would be wise if you actually
have something to base them on.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Kelly - 09 Jan 2005 22:30 GMT
> <snip accusation that newsgroup members want to prolong a cat's
> suffering.>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Megan

Megan,

I don't disagree with anything you have said about the case of Gregory's cat
above.  But there were certain people that jumped on him about merely a
consideration of not going to the internist.  It is my belief that those
people with such extreme opinions opposing euthanizing a suffering cat
without an actual diagnosis are often those people that keep on treating
their pet even if there is suffering occurring.  They have the feeling that
they are doing the right thing, and that good must be happening because the
cat is being "treated".  Meanwhile, the pet continues to suffer.

From 10 years of working behind the scenes, and as a receptionist at a vet
clinic, I see this situation happen time and time again.  Owners taking the
treatment too far for their own selfishness and not wanting to let go of
their pet because they are terrified of the grief that will follow.  They
love their pet so much that they are blind to the suffering that is
occurring.  This is not uncommon, and as much as you want to deny that there
are people in this newsgroup like that, *there are*.  I'm not pointing any
fingers.  Just indicating that it is usually people with strong opposition
to euthanizing without "going the distance", as it was previously put, are
often these kind of people.

I don't think Gregory should be made to feel guilty in this situation by
certain people like Phil.  I am actually surprised that you were so quick to
point out my "accusations" but nothing was said about Phil's accusations
towards Gregory.

Kelly
-L. - 09 Jan 2005 23:50 GMT
> Megan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> to euthanizing without "going the distance", as it was previously put, are
> often these kind of people.

That kind of situation drove me nuts when I worked at the vet.  People
would let their animal suffer for days and sometimes even weeks.  More
than once I wanted to give kitty an overdose to end the suffering.  I
never did, but I wanted to.

Another issue is that vets will let you throw away money on a hopeless
situation - lots of it.  I have seen people literally spend thousands
on a cat that should have been left alone to "let nature take its
course", to be humanely euthanized months before it ever was - having
lived the last months of its life with *no* quality of life.  It's
sickening.  The "owners", of course, thought they were doing their
animal a favor by "doing everything humanly possible".  What they did
was make the cat miserable and prolonged its suffering.

I'm really glad I have a vet that's straight-up.  I inquired about
possibly treating my Dog's tumor and he said it would likely do more
harm than good.  I just wish I had found him a year earlier - she might
have not been misdiagnosed and it might have been early enough to
treat, then.

Decisions like these are the suckiest part of having companion animals.
:(

> I don't think Gregory should be made to feel guilty in this situation by
> certain people like Phil.  I am actually surprised that you were so quick to
> point out my "accusations" but nothing was said about Phil's accusations
> towards Gregory.

Pffft.  Consider the source.

-L.
Meghan Noecker - 10 Jan 2005 06:16 GMT
>Another issue is that vets will let you throw away money on a hopeless
>situation - lots of it.
>
>I'm really glad I have a vet that's straight-up.

I've been pretty fortunate too. When my dog was diagnosed with an
enlarged heart, I was ready to go for more tests, but the vet
explained that this is getting more common in smaller dogs, and is
often not a bad heart, just larger than useful for that size dog. With
a regular weight, it poses no problem, but with a fat dog, the heart
pushes on the windpipe, causing breathing problems. And there isn't
much room, so a minor squueze of the torso can be painful to the dog.
So, the vet suggested I wait on further tests (which would have meant
more money for him), and suggested I wait a year to have another
x-ray. Then they can see if the heart has changed or if it is just
normal for her. In the meantime, put the dog on a diet.

Same with testing my cat. I thought he had a tumor, and I fully
expected a biopsy to go out for expensive testing. The vet took a
little sample, put it on a slide, and looked under the microscope.
Just an unusual fatty deposit. He could have said he wasn't sure and
recommend further testing. But I got out with a $22 office fee and
peace of mind.

When my dog stroked, he confirmed my guess, and agreed that it was
time to put her down.

When my mom's dog had cancer, he recommended the surgery the first
time, and when the tumors came back, he said he could remo