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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2005HELP!!! My 2 year old is ruining an expensive leather couch
She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and done various other things including pherenomes...no good! Scooter did not do this before we bought the couch. She will not pee any where else...aka other furniture, and I see her use a litter box (we have 3) all the time WHY IS SHE DOING THIS? My wife wants me to get a CatScram and see if that works. If it does not, then I will have no option left (since we dont want a $3,000 dollar litter box) then to take her to a no-kill shelter... and I kinda love the little brat. She is spayed, but this started before she got spayed. The other 2 cats ignore the couch, other then to sleep on it. She is the middle cat in the household, and gets along well with the other 2. She is also the only female in the house. Gizmo is our oldest, and Tiger has only been in the house a few months (AFTER Scooter started the peeing on the couch) Any suggestions will be welcome. You may e-mail me if you wish Thanks Coyote Jack > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > not, then I will have no option left (since we dont want a $3,000 > dollar litter box) then to take her to a no-kill shelter... This is disgusting. > and I > kinda love the little brat. Not even "kinda" apparently. > She is spayed, but this started before she got spayed. The other 2 > cats ignore the couch, other then to sleep on it. She is the middle [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any suggestions will be welcome. Get rid of the couch. What were you thinking of, getting an expensive couch when you have 3 cats? Priscilla  Signature"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever. The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal." - QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal > Get rid of the couch. What were you thinking of, getting an expensive > couch when you have 3 cats? Well, in truth, the two *can* be compatible. But in his case, esp. if it's behavioral (Vs. physical), maybe not. Cathy >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net >Priscilla Ballou" >> Get rid of the couch. What were you thinking of, getting an expensive >> couch when you have 3 cats? > >Well, in truth, the two *can* be compatible. But in his case, esp. if it's >behavioral (Vs. physical), maybe not. I have a leather couch and my cats never bother it. I can't help but wonder if the OP's couch has something it's been treated with that is attracting the cat. To the OP, I am assuming you have taken the cat to the vet for a complete physical exam already. If you haven't, I recommend that you do. In the meantime, buy a cover for the couch and use it. Also, you will need to clean the couch with an enzymatic cleaner. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm Gee........I have an expensive leather couch with 3 cats and 2 dogs in the house and have no problems with any of my pets peeing anywhere but in their litter boxes or in the yard. The cat needs to go to the vet to rule out any physical problems and you need to clean the couch with an enzyme cleaner to completely obliterate the cat odor so the cat can't smell it anymore. You also might want to try adding more litter boxes to your household and take to cleaning them twice daily. I use scoopable litter and scoop morning and night because if I don't my oldest cat lets me a surprise right beside the litter box and my Siamese mix will squall her head off if the box is dirty and she wants to go. Cats by nature are clean freaks and some just will not use a dirty litter box! Celeste > > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Priscilla > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > WHY IS SHE DOING THIS? I don't know, but... have you had her checked by the vet for a UTI, just in case it's not behavioral? Cats who have UTI's use the litter box much of the time, but then pee on what they feel is comfortable at other times. > My wife wants me to get a CatScram and see if that works. If it does > not, then I will have no option left (since we dont want a $3,000 > dollar litter box) then to take her to a no-kill shelter... and I > kinda love the little brat. I certainly hope it doens't come to that. Cathy > She is spayed, but this started before she got spayed. The other 2 > cats ignore the couch, other then to sleep on it. She is the middle [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Coyote Jack > My wife wants me to get a CatScram and see if that works. If it does not, > then I will have no option left (since we dont want a $3,000 dollar litter > box) then to take her to a no-kill shelter... and I kinda love the little > brat. No, you have lots of options, including the decision that living things take priority over inanimate objects and that pet responsibility is more than just a nifty phrase. That being said, I do think there are options. Have you tried a feliway diffuser near the couch? Have you tried double-sided tape so that she will dislike the feeling of stepping on the couch? Have you tried maybe putting a scratching post nearby to distract her? What about, as a last resort, keeping the cat away from the room with the couch? Personally, while I love leather couches, I won't have one while I have a cat. My cat is used to jumping up on the back of our couches, and just a few clawmarks would be too upsetting, so I'll forego the pleasure. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! If it were one of your children peeing in bed every night , would you get rid of it. It makes me sick to think that you would even consider getting rid of your cat. A pet should be a lifetime responsibilty for every pet owner, but unfortunately this is not the case. People get rid of the pet in old age, and get a kitten. They get rid of a pet when the pet gets sick. And MY personal favorite excuse, someone in the household is allergic. I say that person should take medication, or move to a cat free household, and let the cat stay. > If it were one of your children peeing in bed every night , would you get > rid of it. It makes me sick to think that you would even consider getting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > say that person should take medication, or move to a cat free household, and > let the cat stay. Well, here we reach a sensitive topic. I happen to know that someone on the cat NGs has a 4yo who's being made miserable by allergies. This sort of constant trauma can cause life-long health issues. And I had to give up a cat I'd just gotten, Eros, because my cat hated him and my husband was allergic. It's easy to say "take medication" and wave away the consequences of being on drugs all of your life. My husband *has* tried those medications, and they make him fall asleep constantly. His quality of life on meds is awful. Off of meds, for the entire month Eros was in our house, my husband was ill, slept poorly, and eventually had to go to the hospital. Were they all directly attributable to allergies? I don't know. But you know, I love my husband, and as much as I love Eros, I also know that Eros is an adorable, wonderful cat who will adjust easily to any home. It tears me up to leave him at a (carefully chosen) shelter. But the marriage vows come first. On the other hand, I had my cat Oscar before I ever married Eric, and I made it clear to him that if they couldn't get along, I wouldn't stay with Eric. I'd made a commitment to her. Now I've made a commitment to Eric, too, and unfortunately neither Oscar nor Eric could tolerate Eros, for different reasons. Prioritizing furniture over cats is pretty lame, but so is the suggestion that for every allergy situation, the solution is to keep the cat. Or to get rid of the person. I can only theorize that you've never cared deeply for a human. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > > If it were one of your children peeing in bed every night , would you get > > rid of it. It makes me sick to think that you would even consider getting [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > cat who will adjust easily to any home. It tears me up to leave him at a > (carefully chosen) shelter. But the marriage vows come first. And you have cats now? Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com writes > It tears me up to leave him at a > (carefully chosen) shelter. No sympathy from this group, I hope. Take an extra bit of time AND FIND THE CAT A HOME INSTEAD OF DUMPING HIM AT A "CAREFULLY CHOSEN SHELTER". > Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com writes > > It tears me up to leave him at a > > (carefully chosen) shelter. > > No sympathy from this group, I hope. Take an extra bit of time AND FIND THE > CAT A HOME INSTEAD OF DUMPING HIM AT A "CAREFULLY CHOSEN SHELTER". I didn't write that, sh.t for brains. Up your meds! And brush up on your reading comprehension ya twit. lol low five, lowwwww five > Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com writes >> It tears me up to leave him at a (carefully chosen) shelter. > > No sympathy from this group, I hope. Take an extra bit of time AND FIND THE > CAT A HOME INSTEAD OF DUMPING HIM AT A "CAREFULLY CHOSEN SHELTER". If you're going to yell at someone, at least quote the right person. Mary didn't say that. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > And you have cats now? No, I have cat. I described the whole ordeal in great detail on the anecdotes NG, if you really care to find out. Eric isn't allergic to Oscar. He is to Eros. *shrug* Short story, I tried to find a home for Eros. I kept him in a kennel for a week, but they were booked for Thanksgiving, so I brought him to an extremely wonderful local shelter. The local shelter has "cat condos," so instead of being stuck by himself in a tiny cage, he is in a condo with ledges, toys, and other cats. Much better than being stuck in a kennel, and arguably better than being locked in a room of our house. The shelter does not euthanize adoptable animals, and their definition of adoptable is extremely broad. If for some reason they decided Eros wasn't adoptable, they would call me to let me pick him up. I visit Eros every few days and we snuggle, and I give skritches and snuggles to his condo-mates, too. You know, I cried for weeks. I felt guilty as hell. I still do. But I spilled my guts to the folks over at the cat anecdotes NG, and all of them were extremely supportive when they heard the whole story. I never thought I'd give up a pet, but then this situation came along and it was just a mess. Eric sick and in the hospital. Oscar living under the bed, terrified to come out even to eat or use the litterbox, even though Eros just wanted to play. Well, if Eric hadn't been allergic, I would have tried every trick in the book with the cats. Even though ears were torn, and there was no sign of progress, only escalation. If the cats had gotten along, well, Eric's health still has to come first. When you watch a loved one go from healthy and robust to constant illness, and then you see that when the cat is out of the house, these symptoms stop immediately ... well, I love Eros, always will, but he is a wonderful cat and *will* find a good home. He has many more opportunities to find that home at the shelter than he does here in my house. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > > And you have cats now? > > No, I have cat. I described the whole ordeal in great detail on the anecdotes > NG, if you really care to find out. > > Eric isn't allergic to Oscar. He is to Eros. *shrug* [snip story] I see. Eric had better turn out to be PERMANENTLY worth it. >> > And you have cats now? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I see. Eric had better turn out to be PERMANENTLY worth it. Why would I marry someone if I didn't expect them to be permanently worth it? If it matters at all, before I brought Eros into my home, I told the previous owner I would only take him on the condition that she would take him back if he and Oscar didn't get along. Of course, when push came to shove, she backed out and wasn't willing to upset her daughter by temporarily homing the cat while she and I worked toward finding an owner. She was supposedly looking into finding him a spot as a barn cat. Screw it. I have a huge sense of responsibility toward pets. I won't get a dog because I know I don't have time for one. I tried to get a second cat just so that Oscar wouldn't be bored! I made sure that I had an out by asking if the previous owner would take Eros back if the two gets didn't get along. I didn't expect that she'd change her mind when the situation actually came about. Despite having a husband in the "telemetry ward" for several days having his vitals monitored against another relapse, I took care of both cats and I tried to find an adoptive family for Eros. I asked everyone I knew. I spent a lot of money keeping him in a nice kennel where they (and I) played with him all the time, while I continued to try to find a home for him. I was in despair about the idea of taking him to a shelter. Both the kennel employees and my vet enthused about how wonderful this shelter is, how nice their facilities are and how well they take care of their cats. So, finally, I brought him to this shelter, and when he does find his forever home, his new family will receive a $50 gift certificate to help get him set up properly. I would happily have paid his adoption fees in advance, but the shelter advised against that to ensure that his potential family has enough money to take care fo him properly. And as a result of all this, I am sending the shelter monthly donations to help Eros and others like him. You think you're so morally superior because you'd put a cat you've *just met*, who has no behavioral problems and is extremely loving and adaptable to new surroundings, above the person to whom you've pledged to spend the rest of your life? You think that you're so special because you'd "never" think of putting a pet in a shelter? Well, I used to be like you, too. I would never give up Oscar for Eric, and he would never ask me to do so. We both know that Oscar stays, no matter what. But that was decided *before* I married Eric. I wouldn't have remained in a relationship with him if he couldn't tolerate Oscar, even physically. And Eros, well, I tried my best for him. He's a great cat and I love him to pieces, and I visit him often. I would never have brought him to a shelter that would euthanize him, but that's not the case. He's in a freaking CAT CONDO with other cats. He spent the first few weeks in seventh heaven with a kitten named Tucker, and he was so enamored of the little guy that when I brought him out to visit, all he wanted to do is go back and hang with Tucker. That definitely sounds like a miserable cat to me. No, wait, it doesn't. Granted, Tucker was quickly adopted and Eros is now rooming with more sedate cats, but he's still doing fine. He has a cold. I brought it up to the shelter manager and he's now on vet rounds. You know, it took me a while to realize it, but I did NOT act irresponsibly. I may have been naive in trying to adopt this cat, whose previous owner had no other leads and probably would have brought him to a shelter *anyway*, but I did NOT act irresponsibly in trying to find a home for him. At a minimum, dozens of people look at the cats in this shelter every day. Do you really think I would have that kind of chance of finding him a forever home from my house? It must be a lonely life, when only your feline family members are worth keeping around and all the humans are disposable. And if you didn't mean to sound as condescending and superior as you sounded in that one-liner, then I apologize for ranting at you. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > >> > And you have cats now? > >> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > And if you didn't mean to sound as condescending and superior as you sounded in > that one-liner, then I apologize for ranting at you. Do you feel better now? You claim to have really loved Eros, so my comment addressed that. I said "I see. Eric had better turn out to be PERMANENTLY worth it" given what you gave up. It really does not matter what you THINK will happen, now does it? You just got pissed at me for merely wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever. Dip. Yeesh. If it were me, I'd get a pretty throw and just keep it on the couch when it's not in use and when it is in use, shoo the cat away. If the cat pees on the throw - wash it and put it back. >From: "Tracy" twrl@britsysdsl.net Yeesh. If it were me, I'd get a pretty throw and just keep it on the >couch when it's not in use and when it is in use, shoo the cat away. If >the cat pees on the throw - wash it and put it back. It would have to be a full coverage, waterproof "throw" in order to be protective. May as well have a wooden crate to sit on if you're going to have a sofa completely covered like that. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience Nothing personal, but how much pee does you cat produce? I've had a cat pee on a throw (long time ago, don't have those problems with either of my cats now) and the tablespoonful of pee was easily absorbed by a washable cotton throw. And I really am not sure I believe that every single inch of the couch would have to be covered, surely the cat is peeing on particular spots, like the seat or over one of the arms? With that and a waterproof coating on the leather couch, this should be manageable. >From: "Tracy" twrl@britsysdsl.net > >Nothing personal, but how much pee does you cat produce? I've had a cat >pee on a throw (long time ago, don't have those problems with either of >my cats now) and the tablespoonful of pee was easily absorbed by a >washable cotton throw. Way more than a tablespoon, I can tell you that! When Carey was on pred, it was a ton. That has been reduced thank goodness. Still, a scoopable "pee ball" is usually the size of say, a tangerine. They are fed canned food only with water added, so they get a fair amount of water into them on a regular basis. And I really am not sure I believe that every >single inch of the couch would have to be covered, surely the cat is >peeing on particular spots, like the seat or over one of the arms? Why would you assume that? And the seat, on a long couch, is a lot of area to cover. >With that and a waterproof coating on the leather couch, this should be >manageable. even the best "waterproof" coating on a leather couch, is not really waterproof. It gives more time if caught right away, but if not (overnight, when nobody is home) it can really sink in. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience > Do you feel better now? You claim to have really loved Eros, so my comment > addressed that. I said "I see. Eric had better turn out to be PERMANENTLY > worth it" given what you gave up. It really does not matter what you THINK > will happen, now does it? You just got pissed at me for merely wishing that > your marriage is happy and lasts forever. Dip. If it had sounded sincere, I wouldn't have responded that way. The phrase "had better be worth it" is rarely used in conjunction with felicitations. Think about it. No, I think I had it pegged the first time. If you'd really meant to wish me a happy marriage, you wouldn't have expressed yourself the way you did. I'm regretful of saying some nasty things in my post, but I'm not going to try to twist my own words so that they sound sweeter. I said what I said. Anyway, flamewars are much like overdosing on candy; they're fun and get the blood pumping while they happen, but afterwards they just leave you feeling gross and guilty. So I'm bowing out of this discussion. Think what you will of me. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > > Do you feel better now? You claim to have really loved Eros, so my comment > > addressed that. I said "I see. Eric had better turn out to be PERMANENTLY [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > gross and guilty. So I'm bowing out of this discussion. Think what you will > of me. You're an idiot. Dear Monique, There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine statements! I do admit that I was going to come down on you re: the leather couch, but after reading further, your leather couch is really not the main issue & you actually do have some major ones. First, I hope Eric is well. And yes the statement that "Eric had better turn out to be "PERMANENTLY worth it" & that it was supposed to mean "merely wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever" is a crock! The person knew damn well what they were insinuating! And if G_d forbid, your marriage didn't work out down the road, would that same person tell you "see, you should have kept the cat"? I inherited my mom's 13 1/2 yr old cat back in 6/01, Shana. She has put me thru hepatitus, hypertension, blindness & now Hyperthyroidism (not bad, but high 'normals' of certain readings, but definitely symptomatic). She has accidents on my bed. My mattress is totally covered with plastic, then the cotton sheet, plastic over that, my blanket, plastic over that! My pillows have vinyl pillow cases. But ... I live alone & don't have to worry about anyone but myself, so I'm sleeping with my "vinyl" as best as possible. LOL She is now 15 1/2 yrs old and totally blind. She gets fed in bed & her litterbox is in my bedroom. I hope I can get another year or so of her companionship in spite of having another younger cat. You made a very tough decision & I certainly understand your feelings of guilt and your tears of pain. But you're a good person & are doing the best you can. The present shelter sounds great & hopefully Eros will be adopted soon & you will be able to relax. I hope you find my letter of support helpful as I want it to be so. I've often wondered if these animals have any idea how they 'torture' & 'grab at our hearts'! But aint they great! LOL Best regards & a Happy New Year Joan (sunny Florida) Fla Joan > Dear Monique, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > after reading further, your leather couch is really not the main issue & you > actually do have some major ones. Well, while I appreciate your sympathy, I wasn't the person with the leather couch. Neither of my cats has any peeing problems, for which I am profoundly grateful. I am unimpressed with someone threatening to give away their cat for peeing on a leather couch. Personally, I won't get a leather couch because even one scratch would annoy me, and Oscar is used to jumping up onto our fabric couches and grabbing with her claws. > First, I hope Eric is well. And yes the statement that "Eric had better > turn out to be "PERMANENTLY worth it" & that it was supposed to mean "merely > wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever" is a crock! The > person knew damn well what they were insinuating! And if G_d forbid, your > marriage didn't work out down the road, would that same person tell you > "see, you should have kept the cat"? Eric's doing much better. After I got Eros out of the house, Eric stopped coughing all night. I suspect the constant coughing led to sleep deprivation, which led to a depressed immune system which led to all sorts of fun illnesses. While Eros was around, Eric caught every bug in town. > I inherited my mom's 13 1/2 yr old cat back in 6/01, Shana. She has put me > thru hepatitus, hypertension, blindness & now Hyperthyroidism (not bad, but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in bed & her litterbox is in my bedroom. I hope I can get another year or > so of her companionship in spite of having another younger cat. Wow. That must be quite a sleeping arrangement! I have to admit that in that situation, I would be tempted not to let the cat on the bed. But then, I'll wait and see how I feel about it when Oscar is old and infirm, and I might only have a short time left with her ... > You made a very tough decision & I certainly understand your feelings of > guilt and your tears of pain. But you're a good person & are doing the best > you can. The present shelter sounds great & hopefully Eros will be adopted > soon & you will be able to relax. Thank you. I hope so. In the mean time, I will keep visiting him. They reduced his adoption fee, but honestly I don't think that will matter. Of course, the frustrating thing is that I know what a wonderful cat he is. But when you take him into a "meeting room", he's more interested in all of the neat smells than in the people. Well, who can blame him? Of course a cat will find all the smells of other animals fascinating. I made flyers with pictures of him at home, relaxed and playful, and they have tucked them into his fact sheet, so hopefully people will take a look. Of course, when people walk by when I'm visiting, I point at Eros and pantomime that they should take him. It's gotten so that many visitors assume I'm staff at the shelter! > I hope you find my letter of support helpful as I want it to be so. I've > often wondered if these animals have any idea how they 'torture' & 'grab at > our hearts'! But aint they great! LOL Best regards & a Happy New Year Joan > (sunny Florida) Fla Joan Thanks very much, from sunny (but sometimes chilly!) Colorado! Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! Monique! LOL! These mssgs can get quite confusing + I have fibromyalgia which causes "Fibro Fog" & I seem to be "cock-eyed foggy"! >> I inherited my mom's 13 1/2 yr old cat back in 6/01, Shana. She has put me >> thru hepatitus, hypertension, blindness & now Hyperthyroidism (not bad, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >wait and see how I feel about it when Oscar is old and infirm, and I might >only have a short time left with her ... I had to write you back since the "leather couch" & Eros has been straightened out in my head! LOL As I mentioned, b/c I live alone, I don't have to worry about anyone but myself & the cat(s). As for "thinking" about keeping Shana off the bed, it's like you mentioned: >I'll wait and see how I feel about it when Oscar is old and infirm Shana has me "hooked"! There's something about her, there always was even when she wasn't very fond of me, then hated me (when my mom owned her). Shana has also become very much my "buddy". From whom she was as mom's pet, to the way she is with me, there are similarities, yet she's different. Shana "owns" me hook, line & sinker! A few months ago, b4 she starting living her life on my bed, she stayed in the kitchen either huddled by the fridge or sleeping on the chair. She wasn't feeling well & I had taken her to the vet. I felt she was suffering & it was time for me to let go. I made the appt, but when I started to leave the house, I became totally hysterical. I couldn't do it! Maybe 'tomorrow'. I don't remember what changed from that day (I have memory problems), but I guess it was shortly after that Shana started to live on my bed. I had read that someone else had started feeding her blind cat on the bed. I've no regrets & I am handling the 'vinyl bed'. I do manage to get myself on top of some 'sheets' & get the blanket over me. And Shana? I get lots of hugs & rough tongue kisses - & sometimes right on the lips! ******************************************************************************************** What am I "missing" about Eros not being adoptable? I'm 'feeling' frustrated about Eros for adoption. Every once in awhile I get "hooked" on someone's plight. You are the 2nd. The 1st was a young lady that needed financial help for her cat Jack's needed surguery & so she posted an eBay auction for support. She gave the hospital #'s, etc. I called to confirm if all - (San Francisco) was legit & placed my bid. Others did follow. I just got a holiday postcard from the Monica & Jack the cat! All is well! Regards, Joan PS It's been rainy & not so nice here! :-( >> You made a very tough decision & I certainly understand your feelings of >> guilt and your tears of pain. But you're a good person & are doing the best [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Thanks very much, from sunny (but sometimes chilly!) Colorado! Fla Joan Dear Monique, There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine statements! I do admit that I was going to come down on you re: the leather couch, but after reading further, your leather couch is really not the main issue & you actually do have some major ones. First, I hope Eric is well. And yes the statement that "Eric had better turn out to be "PERMANENTLY worth it" & that it was supposed to mean "merely wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever" is a crock! The person knew damn well what they were insinuating! And if G_d forbid, your marriage didn't work out down the road, would that same person tell you "see, you should have kept the cat"? I inherited my mom's 13 1/2 yr old cat back in 6/01, Shana. She has put me thru hepatitus, hypertension, blindness & now Hyperthyroidism (not bad, but high 'normals' of certain readings, but definitely symptomatic). She has accidents on my bed. My mattress is totally covered with plastic, then the cotton sheet, plastic over that, my blanket, plastic over that! My pillows have vinyl pillow cases. But ... I live alone & don't have to worry about anyone but myself, so I'm sleeping with my "vinyl" as best as possible. LOL She is now 15 1/2 yrs old and totally blind. She gets fed in bed & her litterbox is in my bedroom. I hope I can get another year or so of her companionship in spite of having another younger cat. You made a very tough decision & I certainly understand your feelings of guilt and your tears of pain. But you're a good person & are doing the best you can. The present shelter sounds great & hopefully Eros will be adopted soon & you will be able to relax. I hope you find my letter of support helpful as I want it to be so. I've often wondered if these animals have any idea how they 'torture' & 'grab at our hearts'! But aint they great! LOL Best regards & a Happy New Year Joan (sunny Florida) Dear Monique, There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine statements! I do admit that I was going to come down on you re: the leather couch, but after reading further, your leather couch is really not the main issue & you actually do have some major ones. First, I hope Eric is well. And yes the statement that "Eric had better turn out to be "PERMANENTLY worth it" & that it was supposed to mean "merely wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever" is a crock! The person knew damn well what they were insinuating! And if G_d forbid, your marriage didn't work out down the road, would that same person tell you "see, you should have kept the cat"? I inherited my mom's 13 1/2 yr old cat back in 6/01, Shana. She has put me thru hepatitus, hypertension, blindness & now Hyperthyroidism (not bad, but high 'normals' of certain readings, but definitely symptomatic). She has accidents on my bed. My mattress is totally covered with plastic, then the cotton sheet, plastic over that, my blanket, plastic over that! My pillows have vinyl pillow cases. But ... I live alone & don't have to worry about anyone but myself, so I'm sleeping with my "vinyl" as best as possible. LOL She is now 15 1/2 yrs old and totally blind. She gets fed in bed & her litterbox is in my bedroom. I hope I can get another year or so of her companionship in spite of having another younger cat. You made a very tough decision & I certainly understand your feelings of guilt and your tears of pain. But you're a good person & are doing the best you can. The present shelter sounds great & hopefully Eros will be adopted soon & you will be able to relax. I hope you find my letter of support helpful as I want it to be so. I've often wondered if these animals have any idea how they 'torture' & 'grab at our hearts'! But aint they great! LOL Best regards & a Happy New Year Joan (sunny Florida) > Dear Monique, > > There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine > statements! There ARE some a.ses, there ARE some a.ses. Sorry, but the first two times I could take it, by the third time you posted my inner Grammar a.shole would not be silenced. >There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine >statements! There sure are. >I do admit that I was going to come down on you re: the leather couch, >but after reading further, your leather couch is really not the main >issue & you actually do have some major ones. It's a good thing you didn't "come down on" her about her leather couch. Monique already said in this very thread she would never own one. >First, I hope Eric is well. And yes the statement that "Eric had >better turn out to be "PERMANENTLY worth it" & that it was supposed to >mean "merely wishing that your marriage is happy and lasts forever" is >a crock! The person knew damn well what they were insinuating! Yes. She was insinuating that relinquishing the commitment that you've made when you adopt a cat is a serious matter and not a decision to be taken lightly. The reasons for that decision better be worth it. Period. Sherry > >There is without a doubt, some a.ses on this ng that make assinine > >statements! [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Sherry Pretty much, and I was thinking, what if Eric turns out to be an a.shole. Now, now, I know this NEVER happens to any woman who makes such a sacrifice to a man, but call me a worrier. In the worst case scenario Monique might wind up sans a.shole and Eros. So in that sense I sure was wishing her marriage was happy and lasted forever because that was the only way she could ever justify (at least IMO) abandoning that cat. "I intend for Eric to be permanent" just does not cut it. Actually, I guess there was a subpoint now that you have me thinking about it: men come and go but cats are forever! > Pretty much, and I was thinking, what if Eric turns out to be an a.shole. > Now, now, I know this NEVER happens to any woman who makes such a sacrifice [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > now that you have me thinking about it: men come and go but cats are > forever! Well, that's fine for you. I wouldn't have married Eric if I didn't think we could spend the rest of our lives together. Granted, I have no crystal ball, but then, if you do, please share. We could all use a turn. It sounds like you've had some really bad experiences with relationships, and not enough good experiences to counterbalance the bitterness of the awful ones. I'm sorry for that. I hope that at some point you meet a human who treats you well, respects you, makes your heart go pitter-patter and your loins jump, too, and I hope that person can show you that human relationships can be far more than ships passing in the night. If I spent my entire life worrying that all my friends and loved ones would turn into a.sholes, I would never get to enjoy some of the best things in life. Sure, it happens, and you try to filter out the obvious ones before they get too close, but the idea of considering marriage temporary because someone might at some point have a complete personality transplant is a bit much. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > Pretty much, and I was thinking, what if Eric turns out to be an a.shole. > > Now, now, I know this NEVER happens to any woman who makes such a sacrifice [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > loins jump, too, and I hope that person can show you that human > relationships can be far more than ships passing in the night. Your ASSumptions know no bounds. If you are not a stupid person, it would behoove you to stop portraying yourself as one. My comment to you with regard to men coming and going and cats staying had to do with the logical fact that a man can do whatever he wants whereas an indoor-only cat is with us for life unless we choose to let him out. As for my past with men, well, that is not something I would splash all over Usenet. I don't write about my "loins" either. The major point is: it's immaterial to the discussion. > If I spent my entire life worrying that all my friends and loved ones would > turn into a.sholes, I would never get to enjoy some of the best things in > life. Sure, it happens, and you try to filter out the obvious ones before > they get too close, but the idea of considering marriage temporary because > someone might at some point have a complete personality transplant is a bit > much. All still beside the point. Everything I said in the above statement is true. You gave up the cat you claim you loved for this man you THINK will be there forever. I repeat--I hope you are right, but you have no guarantees. > All still beside the point. Everything I said in the above statement is > true. You gave up the cat you claim you loved for this man you THINK will > be there forever. I repeat--I hope you are right, but you have no > guarantees. Of course not. Okay, fine, I give. I gave up the cat I claim I loved for this man I think will be there forever. You know, I won't even go that far. I'll say, I gave up this cat for a man I hope will be there forever. I fully recognize that there are no guarantees in life, in love, or in cat ownership. Eric could drop dead, and so could Eros. For that matter, so could I, and I wouldn't be able to take care of my cat(s) anymore, either. I made my decision, and if nothing else, this piffling argument with you has made me realize that I am okay with it. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have taken Eros, because I believed the human who told me she'd take him back if things didn't work out, and that's the real source of all this anxiety. I would never have adopted Eros without that "out," because I knew that Oscar might not get along with him. It's unfortunate, but as you said, there are no guarantees, so I did the best I could with the situation. I believe I did the right thing, or at least chose the lesser evil. I suspect that in balance you're a good person, properly horrified at the idea that someone would give up a cat, and overall I think that's a better attitude to take than the opposite. Somehow we got stuck slinging words at each other, and I don't know about you, but I don't really think we're getting anywhere. It's a waste of both our times to keep reiterating the same discussion point. So, thank you for helping me clarify my thoughts on the matter. I know you don't agree with my priorities, and I suspect you don't respect me at all, and that's too bad. (The respect thing; of course we can disagree.) But at least I'm clear in my own conscience. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > You know, it took me a while to realize it, but I did NOT act irresponsibly. It sure sounds like you're right. Ignore the critics. Sounds like you've worked it through yourself. Priscilla Signature"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever. The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal." - QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal >And I had to give up a cat > I'd just gotten, Eros, because my cat hated him and my husband was allergic. > > It's easy to say "take medication" and wave away the consequences of being on > drugs all of your life. My husband *has* tried those medications, and they > make him fall asleep constantly. You know...I once probably would have argued if this were possible or not. After all, it just doesn't make sense that someone can be allergic to one cat and not another, right? And after all...allergies aren't really that bad, right? Who would give up a cat over a few sniffles? And then we got Robin. I've had cats all my life. Both of my significant others have had cats all their lives. None of us have ever so much as sneezed from a cat. 13 cats in the household and not a watering eye between us. Yet the moment we got Robin through the front door it was like a war had been declared on my sinuses. I have no idea what's different about her...she does have very unique, rough hair, so I suspect she's probably more than just a DSH. What I do know is that I'm allergic to her to a moderate degree. One of my SOs is HIGHLY allergic to her. When we first got her he couldn't be in the same room without having an asthma attack. If you haven't seen someone you love fighting to breathe...well, it ain't too pretty. It took me a while to admit that Robin was the problem and in the end, it was actually pretty easy to solve. We found some allergy pads that you basically "wipe" the cat off with that seemed to cut down on most of the symptoms we both were experiencing. Robin's been with us almost half a year now and has settled in nicely for the most part. But what if those pads didn't work? Anyone who knows me here is aware of how much I believe in responsible pet ownership. There's no such things are being partly responsible...you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground. But is it responsible to force a loved one to feel like hell every day? My SO would never dream of asking me to give up a cat and the idea was never raised. There were no demands, no ultimatums. This wasn't a case of keep the lover or keep the cat. If I was ever given such a demand, the cat wins no matter what the situation, simply because a person who would force that issue is not someone I can love and not who I thought they were. But it could have been a case of keep the cat and make your lover feel like sh.t for the rest of his life because he won't leave you. Who am I more responsible for...my lover who I've known for a few decades or the cat I've known for a week? The lover can make a choice. The cat can't. Shouldn't I therefore be more responsible for the cat, even at the loss of someone I care for so deeply and who is so much a part of my life? Is it responsible to risk sickness myself so that I might become unable to care for not only the new cat but also the others I have become committed to? Sometimes, rarely, I do believe that there are cases were the responsible thing is to rehome an animal. Sometimes the owner is ill and can no longer care for the pet. Sometimes the pet is making the life of another animal in the household miserable and in such cases I believe you have to do what is right for the animal that has been there the longest. If Robin had turned out to be a bully and tried to hurt Heather, I would not have kept her. Heather has been with me three years and deserves better than to be pushed aside for the needs of a new pet simply to prove that I'm a good pet owner. And sometimes allergies really are serious and really can become life threatening. I do believe that most of the time allergies are used as an excuse, a get out of the shelter guilt free card...but having experienced how bad they can be myself, I'm more reluctant to call anyone who claims them a liar. What's my point? I'm not really sure I have one. Just that being responsible isn't always as clean cut as it seems. I'm deathly allergic to rats. Yet I have two of them. I can't go into their room without a mask and gloves. The natural result of this is that they get less attention from me than they deserve. Luckily I have two other people living with me who are willing to care for them and make sure they get love and excurse. If I lived alone I would not have kept them...because it would not have been fair to them and being responsible is about more than putting on a good face and being a martyr. I'm sure it would have been impressive if I kept them despite the fact that I can't breathe around them...but hardly the life they deserve. Yet I also know a girl who was going to kill five rats because she was allergic...and I don't believe that is a responsible act. So I guess I do have situational morals...just like everyone else, which saddens me a bit. Sethran (in a damn rambling mood) > >And I had to give up a cat > > I'd just gotten, Eros, because my cat hated him and my husband was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > And then we got Robin. I didn't argue this point because I am allergic to cats and am much more allergic to Buddha than to Cheeky. It is obvious to everyone around when I forget or am late with my medicine. (In fact I didn't argue with MOnique at all, OR criticize her but what is going on in her head appears to have drowned me out.) [miscellaneous snippage] > You know...I once probably would have argued if this were possible or not. > After all, it just doesn't make sense that someone can be allergic to one > cat and not another, right? And after all...allergies aren't really that > bad, right? Who would give up a cat over a few sniffles? There are a lot of possibilities. Apparently, darker-colored cats and male cats have more allergens; Eros is both black and male, whereas Oscar is grey and female. The surprise is that hair length apparently has little to do with allergens. And then again, maybe it wasn't actually Eros. Allergies are cumulative; maybe having one cat isn't enough to set his off, but two is the breaking point. Again, though, Eros upset Oscar enough that she wouldn't leave the bedroom. I had to lock her up for her own safety. Eros really just wanted to play, but every now and then Oscar would work up the nerve to hurl herself at Eros, and in defending himself, he cut both of her ears. Finding blood on my cat just wasn't a pleasant experience. I don't know if actual damage is considered a normal part of cats duking it out, but it seemed bad enough and, taken in combination with the allergies ... of the three original residents of the house, two were deeply affected, and not in a good way, by Eros. I have a responsiblity to Oscar, too. She was here first and is far more timid than Eros. Now she carries permanent souvenirs =/ And who would give up a cat over a few sniffles? I don't know. I myself haven't been in the position. Without getting into the gory details, which aren't mine to tell, my husband tends to get very ill, like hospital ill, and stress is often a trigger. A constant cold and the subsequent lack of sleep is *definitely* a lot of stress. > Who am I more responsible for...my lover who I've known for a few > decades or the cat I've known for a week? The lover can make a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so that I might become unable to care for not only the new cat but > also the others I have become committed to? And round and round we go. I refused to accept the situation for a while, and Eric continued to be miserable. You know when something horrible happens to you and your brain keeps trying to backtrack and find a way for the situation never to have happened, or to find a way to fix the unfixable? I was in that state for quite a while. I grew up with a very strong ethic of "pets can't take care of themselves, so we must care for them." My parents are big believers, and I am even stronger in this belief. I believed that anyone who would give up a pet for any reason must have something wrong with them. And then this happened, and as my brain is pretty strict, I had to either revise my point of view or consider myself to be an awful, immoral person. Interestingly enough, the shelter seems to agree with me that there are some cases that can't be helped. They have "pet loss" counsellors, and I was told that this includes those who had to give up their pets. > Sometimes the pet is making the life of another animal in the > household miserable and in such cases I believe you have to do what is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > than to be pushed aside for the needs of a new pet simply to prove > that I'm a good pet owner. Bingo. It's sad, though, because Eros does get along great with other cats. Oscar was just threatened by him, for some weird reason in her little cat brain. Well, I know why. Eros wouldn't leave her alone. He wanted to play, and the more she hid, the more he stalked her to get her to play. I could just see her saying, "I vant to be left alone." Unfortunately, I couldn't talk to them, tell Eros to give her time and tell Oscar to give him a chance. Oddly, since Eros left, Oscar seems more comfortable in her own skin. Still jumpy, but more playful and loving. This may be because I joined some cat NGs and through them rediscovered the wonder of my own cat and have been treating her better; this may be because I switched her to better food; or maybe she has gained confidence, believing that she chased away the evil enemy. > And sometimes allergies really are serious and really can become life > threatening. I do believe that most of the time allergies are used as > an excuse, a get out of the shelter guilt free card...but having > experienced how bad they can be myself, I'm more reluctant to call > anyone who claims them a liar. It's hard for me, too, because I've known many people who have allergies and just deal. But hey, it's insane to me that a beesting or a strawberry can be fatal, too, and there it is. I *did* give Eric the choice of whether or not to keep Eros. I didn't feel I had the right to decide how much suffering he should have to endure. But we've agreed that, no matter what, thick or thin, Oscar will live with us. She's been with me through good and bad, and I don't think a shelter would even consider her adoptable, anyway. It would have been nice to have a super-cuddly love-monster to complement the jumpy, sometimes- frustrating Oscar, but oh well. > Sethran (in a damn rambling mood) I appreciate your ramblings. Thank you for sharing them. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! Monique, you gave your cat away, end of story. No need to keep trying to justify your actions. > Monique, you gave your cat away, end of story. No need to keep trying to > justify your actions. No need for you to post, either. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > Monique, you gave your cat away, end of story. No need to keep trying to > > justify your actions. > > No need for you to post, either. Sure there is. > Monique, you gave your cat away, end of story. No need to keep trying > to justify your actions. She clearly feels that it was wrong. I feel sad for her. >Prioritizing furniture over cats is pretty lame I guess we should all live with tiled furniture then? Or not mind urinated-on places to sit? We've managed to conquer most pee problems in this house, but not all of them. Carey has improved 100-fold since going on amitryptiline. The cats will STILL pee on dog beds though (not the ones in the bedroom though - they sleep on those. Just the ones in the family room - who knows why?). They (maybe just one of course) will pee on the powder room rugs if I have some down (doesn't matter if it's a new or old rug), but not the rugs in the upstairs bathrooms. They MAY pee on the family room sofas if I don't spray citrus-spray on daily (we cut down from every time we left the house to just at bedtime - hooray!). I don't want to spray leather with this though - not a good idea. So, scat-mats are on the leather chair and sofa in the living room. We have to remember to remove them for guests ;-D. They're very effective and I've resigned myself to using them for the rest of the cats' lives. Would rather not, but not a lot of choice unless I want my furniture ruined. And like it or not, I want a nice home as well as my cats. We have 4 litter boxes for 2 cats. 3 downstairs (where the family room is), one upstairs (where the living room and leather is). They use them all. Now I just wish they'd be convinced that a few other places aren's so interesting. The one place I'd really like to solve is the FR dog beds. Have tried citrus, Feliway, to no avail. They sleep WITH the dogs in the dog beds as well - not an issue of hating the dogs or the beds! Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience HOWEDY janet, > >Prioritizing furniture over cats is pretty lame > > I guess we should all live with tiled furniture then? Of curse the other OPTION would be to TRAIN your critters so they don't destroy your HOWES like your own critters do, janet. > Or not mind urinated-on places to sit? HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE, janet. If your critters are messin in your HOWES it's on accHOWENT of they're EITHER SICK or UPSET, janet. Your own declawed kat attacks you when you punish your dogs, REMEMBER janet? You've taken IT to the veterinary neuroloist who prescribed VALIUM for her "SEIZURE LIKE" behavior. > We've managed to conquer most pee problems > in this house, IOW you GOT THE SAME PROBLEM, janet. > but not all of them. BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!! > Carey has improved 100-fold since going on amitryptiline. BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAA!!! Your kat is on ANTI PSYCHOTIC medications on accHOWENT of you surgically mutilated her claws and she's TERRIFIED of you on accHOWENT of you're an animal abuser. > The cats will STILL pee on dog beds THAT'S sibiling rivalry. THAT'S CAUSED by PUNISHING the dogs in front of the kats. SEZ SO in your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual, REMEMBER janet? > though (not the ones in the bedroom though - On accHOWENT of YOU'LL HURT HER for that. > they sleep on those. POINT TAKEN. > Just the ones in the family room - who knows why?). On accHOWENT of you're an ABUSER, janet: "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com... He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye. Janet Boss > They (maybe just one of course) will pee on > the powder room rugs if I have some down > (doesn't matter if it's a new or old rug), So, you're a professional trainer, janet? > but not the rugs in the upstairs bathrooms. On accHOWENT of they sleep there. > They MAY pee on the family room sofas if I > don't spray citrus-spray on daily Oh. PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME you can't TRAIN your critters not to destroy your HOWES any better than you could for nessa in the three years you taught her HOWE to jerk and choke her dogs and tie them to the bed at nite and lock them in the crapper durin the day and made them TURN ON HER. REMEMBER janet? > (we cut down from every time we left the house You mean, kinda like SEPARATION ANXXXIHOWESNESS. > to just at bedtime - BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!! > hooray!). ARE YOU INSANE? > I don't want to spray leather with this though - > not a good idea. You mean instead of TRAINING your critters not to want to DO THAT, nearly instantly, janet? > So, scat-mats You mean a shock device, janet. > are on the leather chair and sofa in the living room. Your critters destroy your HOWES on accHOWENT of you're an abuser, janet. You hurt and intimdiate your critters and blame it on their bad genetics, janet. You're the only critter with bad genes, janet. You're a mental case. You cooked your old dog in 104F heat on accHOWENT of SHE didn't want to come into the AC. Your other DEAD DOG ran in front of a car in front of your HOWES and GOT DEAD and your newest dog Franklin had intestinal surgery for swallowin EVERY THING he can find and nearly killed hisself ESCAPING his crate. > We have to remember to remove them for guests ;-D. Wouldn't wanna HURT your friends... > They're very effective and I've resigned myself > to using them for the rest of the cats' lives. On accHOWENT of you don't know HOWE to train a critter not to piss in his own HOWES on accHOWENT of you abuse them, janet. > Would rather not, That so? > but not a lot of choice On accHOWENT of you don't know HOWE to train a kat not to piss in your HOWES, janet. kats are even MOORE fastidiHOWES than dogs, janet. Dogs and kats DON'T MESS in their own HOWESES UNLESS they're SICK or UPSET NEGLECTED and ABUSED, janet. > unless I want my furniture ruined. So you'll continue to abuse your critters. > And like it or not, I want a nice home as well as my cats. Yes, you do want NICE stuff, janet. > We have 4 litter boxes for 2 cats. BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAA!!! > 3 downstairs (where the family room is), You mean where they sh.t and piss unless you got everything covered with a shock device. > one upstairs (where the living room and leather is). Where they sh.t and piss when you don't have a shock device there. > They use them all. When they can't find a better place for all the shock pads... > Now I just wish they'd be convinced that a > few other places aren's so interesting. Perhaps you can PREY for understanding, janet? > The one place I'd really like to solve is the FR dog beds. Your kats piss in the dog beds on accHOWENT of you punish the dogs in front of them, janet. > Have tried citrus, Feliway, to no avail. RIGHT. The PROBLEM is you're an abuser, janet. >They sleep WITH the dogs in the dog beds as well - CuriHOWES, ain't it, janet. > not an issue of hating the dogs or the beds! RIGHT... THEY'RE JUST COPYING YOU, janet. > Janet Boss Oh hey, this just came in from another ADMIRER of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's SPELLIN: "As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care." George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine ----- Original Message ----- From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drvonh@mindspring.com To: <dm@arcane-computing.com Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Doggy advice Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below. I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWING everything. I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very competent at living with dogs. I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about dogs doing this and that, for example: whining, humping, hunching, pacing, self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking, spinning, prolonged barking, barking at shadows, overstimulated barking, fighting, bullying other dogs, compulsive digging, compulsive scratching, compulsive chewing, frantic behavior, chasing light, chasing shadow, stealing food, digging in garbage can, loosing house (toilet) training. inappropriate fearfulness aggression. The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of the intervening time working with animals (including the human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related). You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans. As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care. George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> To: <pdd-aspy...@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: How does diagnosis shape treatment? How does diagnosis shape treatment? Nearly every week I have a visit from Jerry Howe, who publicizes himself as The Puppy Wizard. Jerry is a master at behavioral modification of dogs. His fundamental bedrock is the work Pavlov's last student, the late Sam Corson, Ph.D., did at the U of Ohio (at Oxford,O). Sam always pointed out if the dog stopped working for you in the lab, Pavlov and he always took the dog away from the lab, and put him in a loving home and gave him TLC for a couple of months, and then started, very carefully, over again. Jerry believes that reward and constraint focused training is immoral. I've watched him in one short session calm impossible dogs, just about to be murdered (oops "put to sleep") because of their "incorrigibly" violent behavior. Sam was one of the first people to apply amphetamine to hyperactivity (he searched the Middle West for hyperactive dogs); but he never lost sight of the fundamental reality that a dog is not a human, but does respond, doggily, to dog love. You might be surprised to go to B. F. Skinner's "Cumulative Record" and read the essay by Breland and Breland, "The Misbehavior of Organisms". Animals cannot be successfully trained unless the trainer attends to the evolutionary history, the individual's developmental history, and the environmental niche of the animal being trained. Yep, right there in Skinner's last and summary book. Even with behavior mod, you must know the animal. <snip> Dogs or little boys, you have to know the individual history, and the nature of he disorder. Dr. Von PS if you are interested in dogs, then take a look at Jerry's work, ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > dollar litter box) then to take her to a no-kill shelter... and I > kinda love the little brat. Perhaps you and/or your wife need to take a bath more often. One of you might be leaving a "scent" on the couch. > > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Perhaps you and/or your wife need to take a bath more often. One of you > might be leaving a "scent" on the couch. hahahaha. low five, Phil! >> > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus >> > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > low five, Phil! Buy a roll of plastic and cover the couch -- leave it on when not using the couch. Cats usually don't like plastic and this (hopefully) will train the cats not to get on the couch. > > > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > > > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > low five, Phil! It really pisses me off when people give cats ultimatums and threaten to relinquish the cat over a piece of f.cking wood. Posts like his is one of the main reasons why I rarely handle adoptions. > > > > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > > > > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Posts like his is one of the main reasons why I rarely handle adoptions. I can understand that. > It really pisses me off when people give cats ultimatums and threaten to > relinquish the cat over a piece of f.cking wood. But it's wood covered with padding and leather! Totally different! *sigh* > Posts like his is one of the main reasons why I rarely handle adoptions. I can understand that. When I'm visiting Eros, I see people coming through looking at cats, and I always want them to look at Eros, but then I imagine all sorts of horrible scenarios ... Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! > > It really pisses me off when people give cats ultimatums and threaten to > > relinquish the cat over a piece of f.cking wood. > > But it's wood covered with padding and leather! No? Really? Whoopee! So? >Totally different! No it isn't. The principal is the same. > *sigh* > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > looking at cats, and I always want them to look at Eros, but then I imagine > all sorts of horrible scenarios ... I don't think I have a greater conflict of emotions than I do at adoptions. No matter how thorough the screening or how well you think you know a person, you'll never know how they'll react in certain situations. I know brutal, battle-hardened grunts that treat cats delicately as a newborn baby and with the patience and understanding of a saint - and yet have hair-triggers with people. OTOH, I've known fragile whimps and even vet techs who were sweet as pie with people but were downright animal abusers -- abuse comes in several varieties. Instead of the worries ending at adoptions, that's when they really begin. (...) > > But it's wood covered with padding and leather! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No it isn't. The principal is the same. Er, I think you need to reread Monique's post with your sarcasm detection module engaged... S. > (...) >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > S. Pretty sure Phil caught my meaning, but he's had to deal with so many unwanted pets and dumb people that he wants to be very explicit. At least, that's how I interpreted his post. Signaturemonique, roommate of Oscar the (female) grouch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eros was adopted! Eros has a home now! *cheer!* > > (...) > >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > At least, that's how I interpreted his post. Don't mind little Stevie - Nit-picking is his thing. Its a compensation thing. > (...) > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Er, I think you need to reread Monique's post with your sarcasm > detection module engaged... Steve, Your little pecker complex is showing again. Have you tried Feliway? Also... supposedly an old wife's tale but it worked for us when we got Stella as an untrained kitten... put pepper where they pee. They won't like the smell and won't go back to re offend. Signature.oO rach Oo. > She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus > based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Coyote Jack >She pees on it constantly. I have cleaned the leather, used a citrus >based cleaner to drive the cats away (We have a 3 cat household) and >done various other things including pherenomes...no good! Where on the couch is she peeing? Where you sit or your boyfriend/husband? If she is only peeing where one of you sits, then she has an issue with that person. I have a cat who peed on my expensive leather sofa but only where my husband sits. I cleaned with the enzyme stuff, sprayed "no mark" on it then put a throw on that area. He didn't do it again until my husband took the throw off. I cleaned again. This time I put a throw on that area that I'd wrapped myself in a few times so it'd have my scent on it. No more spraying, on the couch at least. He still nails the side of my desk in the animal room from time to time. Well, thanks for all the NON Help and flames I have been a cat lover for over 40 years, and I am NOT the one who wants to get rid of Scooter... and neither does my wife...but we need some help here. NOT FLAMES. But evidently, no one has read the question I was asking. Instead, certain posters have decided that I am just some sort of piece of sh.t who values property over life.....and you folkss couldnt be farther from the truth Now, for even more background, IF you read this far. Scooter has been to the vet, she was checked for a UTI, results negative. This is clearly a behavioral problem, and the problem DID NOT START until we bought the couch. And the couch was an anniversary gift for my wife, who had wanted one. Scooter did NOT pee on our old couch, which was cloth. None of the other cats pee on the couch. She was an abandoned kitten when we found her almost 2 years ago. I nursed her to health, and made sure she survived...which was real touch and go for the first couple of weeks, but survive she did. When I said I kinda love the little brat, PRISCILLA, it was tongue-in-cheek. I am trying to keep peace in my household with my wife, at the same time as loving Scooter, and keeping her So i am going to try pepper on the couch, in little sachets. I am also looking at ordering an ultrasonic device called a Cat Scram, and I would really appreciate it, if anyone who has had experience with it, could post their views. We have 3 litter boxes inside, and one on our enclosed patio, that I clean twice daily, sometimes more.. we have even considered buying Littermaids, but do not know of any pros or cons to them. Also, the couch has been thoroughly cleaned with Enzymatic Cleaners So if anyone has some helpful suggestions, it would be appreciated.... but if you just want to flame, please don't bother Coyote Jack >This is >clearly a behavioral problem, and the problem DID NOT START until we >bought the couch. Leather is cow skin. Perhaps it smells like an animal smell to her so she must cover it up with her own smell? Even though I have a leather couch I hate the smell of new leather. It makes me nauseus. Perhaps you can just get a few cans of "no mark" and spray it all over the couch where she could possibly pee. "no mark" smells like cat phermones. They will smell it and think their scent is already on the item so no need to pee on it. Cat urine over time will rot out the leather and leave a hole. >>This is clearly a behavioral problem, and the problem DID NOT START until we >>bought the couch. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > think their scent is already on the item so no need to pee on it. Cat urine > over time will rot out the leather and leave a hole. Funny. I adore the smell of fresh leather. I had an ex-boyfriend whose roommates' cat peed on his leather jacket. Of course, he'd left it on the floor, and given the circumstances of our breakup, I wasn't inclined to feel too sorry for him. Maybe there's something about leather, at least to some cats ... Oh, didn't someone link to "cat paper" in this NG a while ago? It's super-absorbent. Maybe you can put some in the spot when no one's sitting on the couch. Signaturemonique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH with an attitude! >So i am going to try pepper on the couch, in little sachets. I am also >looking at ordering an ultrasonic device called a Cat Scram, and I >would really appreciate it, if anyone who has had experience with it, >could post their views. I don't think sachets of pepper is going to discourage her much. There's got to be something about the leather that she just wants to pee on. You can try whatever you want, but if it were me, I'd get a slipcover and see what happens. If the cat still peed on the couch, I'd get rid of the couch and get a fabric one. But, that's just me. Good luck. Sherry >From: sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) >If the cat still peed on the couch, I'd get rid of the couch and get a fabric >one. But, that's just me. That's why I would do too. Get the leather couch professionally cleaned and then sell it and buy a new cloth one. Problem solved. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Lauren OH, for sure, no biggie. Life's too short to go in for a battle of wills with a cat, just for the sake of owning a leather couch. Just not worth it to me. Sherry > >>From: sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sherry Also, they are cold in the winter and look like 1980s bachelor pad. |
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