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News:  First Cloned Cat Made

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Ruby Tuesday - 23 Dec 2004 16:54 GMT
First cloned cat-to-order cost $50,000
Woman wanted `identical' pet
Sale of `Little Nicky' stirs ethics debate

PAUL ELIAS
ASSOCIATED PRESS

SAN FRANCISCO-The first cloned-to-order pet sold in the United States is
named Little Nicky, an eight-week-old kitten delivered to a Texas woman
saddened by the loss of a cat she had owned for 17 years.

The kitten cost its owner $50,000 (U.S.) and was cloned from a beloved cat,
named Nicky, that died last year. Nicky's owner banked the cat's DNA, which
was used to create the clone.

"He is identical. His personality is the same," the woman said in a
telephone interview.

The company, Sausalito-based Genetic Savings and Clone, made her available
to speak to reporters only on condition the woman's name and hometown not be
used. The woman said she fears being the target of groups opposed to
cloning.

"Nicky loved water, which is an unusual characteristic of cats. Little Nicky
jumped into my bath," said the woman, who said she is in her early 40s and
employed in the airline industry.

The company delivered Little Nicky two weeks ago and was expected to
publicly announce the news today.

While Little Nicky frolics in his new home, the kitten's creation and sale
has reignited fierce ethical and scientific debate over cloning technology,
which is rapidly advancing.

By May, the company said it hopes to have produced the world's first cloned
dog - a much more lucrative market than cats.

Commercial interests already are cloning prized cattle for about $20,000
each, and scientists have cloned mice, rabbits, goats, pigs, horses - and
even the endangered banteng, a wild bull that is found mostly in Indonesia.

Several research teams around the world, meanwhile, are racing to create the
first cloned monkey.

"It's morally problematic and a little reprehensible," said David Magnus,
co-director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics at Stanford University. "For
$50,000, she could have provided homes for a lot of strays.''

Animals' rights activists complain that new feline production systems aren't
needed because thousands of stray cats are euthanized each year for want of
homes.

Lou Hawthorne, Genetic Savings and Clone's chief executive, said his company
purchases thousands of ovaries from spay clinics across the country. It
extracts the eggs, which are combined with the genetic material from the
animals to be cloned.

Critics also complain the technology is available only to the wealthy, that
using it to create house pets is frivolous and that customers grieving over
lost pets have unrealistic expectations of what they're buying.

In fact, the first cat cloned in 2001 had a different coat from its genetic
donor, underscoring that environment and other biological variables make it
impossible to exactly duplicate animals.

"The thing that many people do not realize is that the cloned cat is not the
same as the original," said Bonnie Beaver, an animal behaviourist who heads
the American Veterinary Medical Association. "It has a different
personality. It has different life experiences. They want Fluffy, but it's
not Fluffy.''

The company says it carefully counsels its customers about what they'll
receive, but insists myriad personality and physical traits will be passed
from genetic donor to cloned offspring.

Little Nicky's owner said the company "underpromised and overdelivered" her
cat, which is of the Maine coon variety. A native New England breed, the
Maine coon gets its name from the resemblance of a tabby Maine coon's tail
to that of a raccoon.

Still other scientists warn cloned animals suffer from more health problems
than their traditionally bred peers and that cloning is still a very inexact
science. It takes many gruesome failures to produce just a single clone.
raenee - 23 Dec 2004 21:19 GMT
Personally, I wouldn't clone a pet of mine or anyone I knew. If they
died, then, as much as I would miss them, I honestly don't want an
identicle wandering around. I dunno if I would like myself cloned,
either, but I haven't thought about that one too much. As they said in
the article, a person who buys a clone of their deceased animal will
spend a *lot* of cash on an animal that isn't what they lost. Every
being is different because of it's experiences and whatnot. Instead of
wanting her cat that died back, she should have let him and and
provided housing/charity for other cats.

...A very controversial topic, kindof annoying how controversial it is,
actually.
Ruby Tuesday - 23 Dec 2004 22:43 GMT
[...]

Instead of
> wanting her cat that died back, she should have let him and and
> provided housing/charity for other cats.

Agreed.

- RT
Cat Protector - 24 Dec 2004 00:53 GMT
I wouldn't want a clone either. I think each of my cats is unique enough and
there can only be one like them. If mine died I'd be saddened but I'd also
eventually want to get another cat. Adopting one that needs a good and
loving is also the best way to honor the memory of the cat that has passed
on. Anyone willing to spend $50,000 for a cloned cat has obviously no heart
when so many in the shelters need good and loving homes.

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> Personally, I wouldn't clone a pet of mine or anyone I knew. If they
> died, then, as much as I would miss them, I honestly don't want an
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> ...A very controversial topic, kindof annoying how controversial it is,
> actually.
John Doe - 24 Dec 2004 03:36 GMT
>...As they said in the article, a person who buys a clone of their
>deceased animal will spend a *lot* of cash on an animal that isn't
>what they lost. Every being is different because of it's
>experiences and whatnot. Instead of wanting her cat that died back,
>she should have let him and and provided housing/charity for other
>cats.

I think those are very interesting/illuminating opinions you have
there. What it will all come to, I guess only time will tell.
Cat Protector - 24 Dec 2004 00:49 GMT
It is such a sad thing she did. She has a cat cloned when so many cats at
the shelters are wanting a good and loving home. That lady should be ashamed
of herself.

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> First cloned cat-to-order cost $50,000
> Woman wanted `identical' pet
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
> inexact
> science. It takes many gruesome failures to produce just a single clone.
Zythophile - 24 Dec 2004 17:06 GMT
> It is such a sad thing she did. She has a cat cloned when so many cats at
> the shelters are wanting a good and loving home. That lady should be
> ashamed of herself.

This was my initial reaction. But on thinking about it a bit more, I feel I
don't know enough about the situation to make a judgement. 26 k is a
ridiculously large amount of money to me, but maybe not to that lady. For
all we know, she may regularly support good causes, if she's prepared to
spend ?26 000 on a cloned cat, maybe she gives thousands of pounds a year to
human or animal charities.

Also by paying for a clone of her cat, she is supporting research which
could conceivably have a beneficial impact on future human and animal
health.

I'm not sure whether I'm being seasonably generous or just playing Devil's
Advocate. I can envisage no circumstances under which i'd get a cat from
anywhere but an animal shelter. But I'm really unlikely ever to be able to
consider 26 grand as spare change.

Merry Xmas

Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Cat Protector - 24 Dec 2004 17:41 GMT
Even if that amount of money is no problem for this lady she still is
selfish in my book. Adopting a cat from the shelter which needs a good and
loving home is the best thing you can do. You not only give another needy
cat a new chance at life but also help other cats as well when you pay the
adoption fee. I would never clone any of my cats because I believe in
helping other cats that need it. You don't accomplish any of that by
cloning. The lady was selfish with her money and could have helped another
cat at a shelter by adopting them or at the very least donating the money to
a feline rescue group.

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www.panthertekit.com

>
>> It is such a sad thing she did. She has a cat cloned when so many cats at
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Merry Xmas
Zythophile - 24 Dec 2004 18:19 GMT
<snip>

> I would never clone any of my cats because I believe in helping other cats
> that need it. You don't accomplish any of that by cloning.

I wouldn't clone my cats either, especially whilst cloned animals appear to
have so many health problems. Also I can never envisage a scenario where
cloning a cat is preferable adopting one from a shelter. However, it could,
possibly help cats that need it, as well as other animals and humans.
Cloning is at an early stage. If there are people prepared to pay for
reproductive cloning of their pets, this might help to improve the
techniques and make them more reliable. This could help advance therapeutic
cloning which could provide health benefits for animals and people in
future.

>The lady was selfish with her money and could have helped another cat at a
>shelter by adopting them or at the very least donating the money to a
>feline rescue group.

However, it was her money to be selfish with. Just as I am selfish by
spending money caring for my two cats when I could be donating that money to
the victims in darfur or similar. Aren't we all selfish in the Western World
when we have too much food, comfortable homes, internet connections and
money we can spend on pets when most human beings survive on less than 1 US
dollar a day? I'm not happy about throwing stones whilst I'm in this glass
house.

I'm not defending reproductive cloning of pets, just saying that I don't
have enough facts to condemn it.

Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Monique Y. Mudama - 27 Dec 2004 20:23 GMT
> However, it was her money to be selfish with. Just as I am selfish by
> spending money caring for my two cats when I could be donating that money to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dollar a day? I'm not happy about throwing stones whilst I'm in this glass
> house.

You speak my mind 100%.  Is it selfish to own a piano when a child somewhere
needs a kidney?  Is it selfish to care for my cat when children are starving?
Is it selfish to own a nice home, to have a new car, etc?  I'm sure that if I
changed my life style, I could donate $25K a year to worthy causes.  But I
like eating well and having nice things.  Do I feel guilty?  Sometimes.

"Selfish" typically means "your priorities are not mine."

Signature

monique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH
with an attitude!

jks0614 - 24 Dec 2004 19:54 GMT
I was wondering how this group would take to this news & I'm glad to
see that I'm not alone thinking about the so many animals in shelters
that need homes.
I"m also not going to avoid mentioning that there are also animals that
are being sold in petstores that could also use a helping hand.  I know
this might go against many persons here, but I live near a Pupply Paws
& got disgusted when I saw a cute Boston Terrier unadopted for
"several" months!  Finally a loving adopted home came about.
Although this place doesn't have kittens/cats, I do wonder about some
of the petstores that do carry them & if there are a few that seem to
be carried over month-to-month.
But all-in-all, as much as I've lost a few beloved cats during my
lifetime, I cannot think a better way of spending my $'s than finding &
giving a new kitten/cat from a shelter a home.
Personally, I don't care what this lady's situation is, & although I
very much like to stay away from passing judgments, I can't help
thinking that her $'s would be much better spent than on a good shrink
& a 'shelter' cat.
JMO
Joan

> Even if that amount of money is no problem for this lady she still is

> selfish in my book. Adopting a cat from the shelter which needs a good and
> loving home is the best thing you can do. You not only give another needy
> cat a new chance at life but also help other cats as well when you pay the
> adoption fee. I would never clone any of my cats because I believe in

> helping other cats that need it. You don't accomplish any of that by
> cloning. The lady was selfish with her money and could have helped another
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> > all we know, she may regularly support good causes, if she's prepared to
> > spend £26 000 on a cloned cat, maybe she gives thousands of pounds
a year
> > to human or animal charities.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >
> > Merry Xmas
raenee - 24 Dec 2004 18:12 GMT
I don't think that cloning could ever be beneficial for health of any
creature. Somewhere in the article it stated that clones tended to have
more health problems and had shortened lifespans... Maybe cloning could
someday measure up to the current standards, but I don't think it could
ever improve what we've got now or will have in the future.
Elizabeth Blake - 24 Dec 2004 01:23 GMT
I got my cat Tiger when she was 1 1/2 years old.  When I heard about the
cloned cats, I briefly thought that if I had $50,000 to throw away I'd clone
Tiger (who is still alive!) just so I could see what she looked like as a
kitten.  It wasn't a serious thought.  But I wish I had known Tiger as a
kitten.

The woman claims that the cloned kitten is just like her original, but the
poor baby is only 7 weeks old!  In a year or two, I wonder if she'll be
saying the same thing.

--
Liz
Wendy - 24 Dec 2004 12:28 GMT
> I got my cat Tiger when she was 1 1/2 years old.  When I heard about the
> cloned cats, I briefly thought that if I had $50,000 to throw away I'd clone
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> Liz

Almost certainly not! This kitten won't have any littermates or a mom to
learn from and therefore will be a very different animal. It would almost
serve her right if the cat turned out to be a biter.

W
Ashley - 24 Dec 2004 19:02 GMT
> Almost certainly not! This kitten won't have any littermates or a mom to
> learn from and therefore will be a very different animal.

You may be right about the littermates, but you also like to think long and
hard about where this kitten may have gestated. Hint: it wasn't a test tube
or Petri dish.
William Hamblen - 25 Dec 2004 15:42 GMT
> Almost certainly not! This kitten won't have any littermates or a mom to
> learn from and therefore will be a very different animal. It would almost
> serve her right if the cat turned out to be a biter.

They didn't pour the kitten out of a test tube.  It had a mother.
What the owner has is an identical twin of her original cat.  It
will resemble the original cat, but it isn't the same animal.
It is hard to know how the animal will thrive, since the chromosomes
are "older" than the animal.  Will it succumb to "old age" sooner than
normal?

I would rather have a pet than a biology experiment.
Barb - 26 Dec 2004 18:18 GMT
A cloned cat will not be the same cat.  They say the cloned cat will have
more health problems and maybe a shorter life.  There's something marvelous
about adopting a cat from a shelter or taking one off the street that
obviously has no home, but you can't judge just because the cloned cat cost
more than $50,000.  The woman is a cat lover, she has a lot of money and my
feeling is she does donate a great deal of money to animal organizations.
You can't begrudge a person their $100 can of caviar because they could feed
50 poor people with that money even though they could.

PS I hate caviar!

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.
Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 18:34 GMT
How do you know she donates a great deal of money to animal organizations? I
think she is selfish for paying $50,000 for a clone when many cats in the
shelters need good and loving homes. That $50,000 can go a long way to also
help the shelters that house them until they are adopted. Simply put, that
woman wanted her cat cloned because she thought that her original cat would
come back to her in some fashion but it would not be the same cat. As for
your $100 can of caviar theory it sounds to me like a pretty snobbish
attitude. Those rich with money should give back to the community.

Many animal shelters need money to survive. Adopting from a shelter not only
gives a cat a new chance at a good life but the money for the adoption fee
goes right bacck into helping other cats awaiting adoption. The shelters can
buy food, litter, toys and other items that the cats awaiting adoption need.
$50,000 would sure be a blessing for many shelters to have but that woman
chose to deny a cat in the shelter a good and loving home by paying a lot of
money to have one cloned. In a way she also is supporting animal
overpopulation as well by not getting a cat from the shelter. That woman
should be ashamed of herself.

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Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

>A cloned cat will not be the same cat.  They say the cloned cat will have
> more health problems and maybe a shorter life.  There's something
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Of course I don't look busy,
> I did it right the first time.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 18:52 GMT
,snip
> Those rich with money should give back to the community.

I agree entirely. I am rich. There are 5 953 796 835 people in the world
poorer than I am. I suspect that everyone posting here is rich. Check out
your own richness at http://www.globalrichlist.com/. Once we realise how
fortunate we are and cast out the beams from our eyes we can start casting
out the motes from others' (hmm... who said that? some Jewish bloke IIRC).

> Many animal shelters need money to survive. Adopting from a shelter not
> only gives a cat a new chance at a good life but the money for the
> adoption fee goes right bacck into helping other cats awaiting adoption.

I agree totally.

> The shelters can buy food, litter, toys and other items that the cats
> awaiting adoption need. $50,000 would sure be a blessing for many shelters
> to have but that woman chose to deny a cat in the shelter a good and
> loving home by paying a lot of money to have one cloned. In a way she also
> is supporting animal overpopulation as well by not getting a cat from the
> shelter. That woman should be ashamed of herself.

I probably spend several hundred dollars a year keeping my 2 cats healthy,
well fed and comfortable. At 1 USD / day that would keep several human
beings alive in the poorest parts of the world. I should be, and sometimes
am, ashamed of myself. What about you, Cat Protector?

I am not religious and definitely not Christian, but I really do understand
and agree with the principle that "Judge not; lest ye yourself be judged."
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 19:18 GMT
I am not rich with money myself but I still give to a few local feline
causes when I can. I think it is bad form for you to say some Jewish bloke
in regards to money. That is a stereotype. I spend plenty on my own cats but
I also remember those cats that are awaiting adoption in the shelters here
where I live so I always save a few dollars for them.

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www.panthertekit.com

"Zythophile" <zythophile@thepub.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bMDzd.114$e94.33@newsfe5-

> I agree entirely. I am rich. There are 5 953 796 835 people in the world
> poorer than I am. I suspect that everyone posting here is rich. Check out
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> understand and agree with the principle that "Judge not; lest ye yourself
> be judged."
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 19:33 GMT
>I am not rich with money myself

Yes you are. You have access to a computer and you can afford to feed cats.

> but I still give to a few local feline causes when I can.

I have not and will not question your generosity to causes that are imprtant
to you.

> I think it is bad form for you to say some Jewish bloke in regards to
> money. That is a stereotype

I think you are missing my point. I thought were going to say, "It's not
cricket" for a moment. The quote comes from the sermon on the mount and is
not intended to reinforce any stereotype  as regards Jewish people and their
attitude to money. In fact,I know people who would argue that Jesus wasn't
Jewish because he was the son of God. AFAIK, Jewishness is inherited via the
maternal line, so as the Madonna was Jewish, Jesus was Jewish. I am the son
of a Yorkshireman, and, like him, I'm as tight as a shark's as$e at 50
fathoms and that's water-tight!!! :-)

>. I spend plenty on my own cats but I also remember those cats that are
>awaiting adoption in the shelters here where I live so I always save a few
>dollars for them.

But do you give anything to majority world causes? If you only give to cat
related charities, some people could argue that you are being selfish by
putting cats before people. I actually disagree with this point of view;
there are very many "good" causes in the world; we cannot all give money and
time to all of them. We have to choose what is important to us. That will
differ between individuals.

Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 19:51 GMT
Dear Cat Protector,

I think we're both in danger of missing the point of this discussion. I
would suggest that the important thing is whether reproductive cloning of
cats and other animals is a "good thing", not whether the particular lady in
question is being selfish or not. I think both you and I agree that, from
the information we have available, we believe that she is being selfish. I
think where we differ, is that I would argue that she is being no more
selfish than the majority of us in the Minority World.

I suspect that we would both agree that reproductive cloning of cats is not,
per se, "a good thing", although we may well disagree about the broader
issues involved.

Yours,

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W
Mary - 26 Dec 2004 20:04 GMT
> Dear Cat Protector,
>
> I think we're both in danger of missing the point of this discussion.

Don't worry. If CP misses a point he can always refer
to the one on the top of his little head.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT
>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>
>> I think we're both in danger of missing the point of this discussion.
>
> Don't worry. If CP misses a point he can always refer
> to the one on the top of his little head.

Now I'll have to ask you to explain. I suspect that there's something verry
funny in this that I'm missing,
Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 20:20 GMT
She is taking a jab at me because I don't agree with her and am not one of
her followers. Unlike some I don't need to cause a flame war in order to
make my point.

Signature

Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
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Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Now I'll have to ask you to explain. I suspect that there's something
> verry funny in this that I'm missing,
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:36 GMT
> She is taking a jab at me because I don't agree with her and am not one of
> her followers. Unlike some I don't need to cause a flame war in order to
> make my point.

I hope that no-one is taking a jab at you. You are entitled to express your
point of view; I am entitled to express mine; Mary is entitled to express
hers. We are not going to agree on all subjects. The world would be a boring
place if we did. I have disagreed with you in this discussion, but I hope
that you do not think that I have ever taken a jab at you. Your viewpoint is
diiferent from mine, but that doesn't make either viewpoint invalid.
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Mary - 26 Dec 2004 22:29 GMT
> She is taking a jab at me because I don't agree with her and am not one of
> her followers.

Followers?? Jeez, CP, I'm not THAT Mary!
equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 20:24 GMT
>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Now I'll have to ask you to explain. I suspect that there's something verry
>funny in this that I'm missing,

I you're new to this forum, just keep going with a dialog with CP.
You'll understand soon enough.....

PS -- try not to pull out your hair or knock your head against the wall.

eq
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:46 GMT
>>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> eq

I'm new to this forum and I shaved my head in 1999!
equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 20:54 GMT
>>>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>I'm new to this forum and I shaved my head in 1999!

God precaution :-0

eq
equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 21:10 GMT
>>>>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>eq

That should read "Good precaution". There I go bringing religion into it
again.

eq
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 21:12 GMT
>>>>>> Dear Cat Protector,
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> eq

I suppose I need to pad the walls now, to be on the safe side? :-)
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 21:24 GMT
<SNIP>

>I suppose I need to pad the walls now, to be on the safe side? :-)

It depends if you shaved your head as part of Buddhism and the
development of an inner calm or not....

eq
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 21:46 GMT
> <SNIP>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> eq

Nah mate. I was going grey!
equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 22:13 GMT
>> <SNIP>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Nah mate. I was going grey!

Ahhh, OK! Well, if you weren't grey before, you might be about to go
now. Just for reference, if this thing takes off, there's a bunch of
forum regulars pulling up lawn chairs and nuking the popcorn right now.
Welcome to the group!

eq
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 22:52 GMT
>>> <SNIP>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> eq

Thx for the welcome. I didn't know one could microwave popcorn; I always
cook it in a saucepan with about 50 g of butter in the bottom. But then; I'm
a traditionalist :-)
Mary - 26 Dec 2004 22:28 GMT
> >> Dear Cat Protector,
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Now I'll have to ask you to explain. I suspect that there's something verry
> funny in this that I'm missing,

It's some old saw about rather, err, slow people having
pointy heads. CP's heart is in the right place but he is not
exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, you may have noticed.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 22:41 GMT
>> >> Dear Cat Protector,
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> pointy heads. CP's heart is in the right place but he is not
> exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, you may have noticed.

I haven't heard that one. When I were an ankle-biter, one of my
school-friend was known by the nickname "Rocket Head", but he wasn't in any
way stupid. I liked your phrase, "not the sharpest knife in the drawer". I
haven't heard that before, but I am familar with; "not the brightest crayon
in the box", "a brick short of a lorryload", "a pork-pie short of a picnic"
etc.

I won't question Cat Protector's intelligence, but I have found it difficult
to follow his/her train of thought at times. That could be as much as
reflection on my intelligence as his/hers.

Am I right in assuming that you're a Brit too?

I think I'm off to do a google search on pointy heads.
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 23:07 GMT
<SNIP>

>Am I right in assuming that you're a Brit too?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'

Wow! I'm blown away!

>I think I'm off to do a google search on pointy heads.
equalizer - 26 Dec 2004 23:27 GMT
><SNIP>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>>I think I'm off to do a google search on pointy heads.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You're going to get along well with Steve G., another Brit who's sense
of humor is so uncannily like my Brit cousin Oriental Rice, who was a
very sharp electronic engineer before suffering a stroke that it's damn
spooky.

eq
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 23:49 GMT
>><SNIP>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> eq

We pride ourselves on our sense of humour and our stiff upper lip. Since we
lost India, it's all we have left ;-)

I liked Ricky Gervais' acceptance speech at the 2004 Golden Globes, "I'm
from Britain. We ran the world before you."
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

equalizer - 27 Dec 2004 00:05 GMT
<SNIP>
>> You're going to get along well with Steve G., another Brit who's sense
>> of humor is so uncannily like my Brit cousin Oriental Rice, who was a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I liked Ricky Gervais' acceptance speech at the 2004 Golden Globes, "I'm
>from Britain. We ran the world before you."

We Merkins apparently have a different view. It is fashionable nowadays
to call people and entire countries "evil".  It's how you improve
relations with them.

PS -- the above was stolen, it's not mine. But I couldn't have said it
better, and I'm not above plagiarism.

eq
Zythophile - 27 Dec 2004 00:41 GMT
> <SNIP>
>>> You're going to get along well with Steve G., another Brit who's sense
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> eq

We are probably going way off topic now, but anyone who can take the piss
out of their own nationality sounds like a well balanced human being to me.
Once we can do that, we can take the piss out of everyone else :-)
equalizer - 27 Dec 2004 09:57 GMT
>> <SNIP>
>>>> You're going to get along well with Steve G., another Brit who's sense
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>out of their own nationality sounds like a well balanced human being to me.
>Once we can do that, we can take the piss out of everyone else :-)

Hey, we were the leader of the Free World once. But at least, now we can
microwave popcorn...
eq
Mary - 27 Dec 2004 03:11 GMT
> <SNIP>
>
> >Am I right in assuming that you're a Brit too?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'
>
> Wow! I'm blown away!

Me too. :)
Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT
I am not in danger of missing the point. Besides, you don't speak for me.

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>
> Dear Cat Protector,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Z
> 51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W
Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 20:14 GMT
How does my having a computer and affording to care for my cats make me
amongst the wealthy and affluent? As for your Jewish thing, Madonna was not
Jewish but Jesus was. I am not going to get into a religious war with you
though since this is a forum about cats. And yes, I do give right now to
only feline causes and would care less what other people say by my doing so.
So far, nobody has really said anything negative about it.

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> Yes you are. You have access to a computer and you can afford to feed
> cats.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> and time to all of them. We have to choose what is important to us. That
> will differ between individuals.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:17 GMT
> How does my having a computer and affording to care for my cats make me
> amongst the wealthy and affluent? As for your Jewish thing, Madonna was
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>> money and time to all of them. We have to choose what is important to us.
>> That will differ between individuals.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT
> How does my having a computer and affording to care for my cats make me
> amongst the wealthy and affluent?

Because you are obviously not living on 1 USD a day. I have access to
considerably more than 1 USD a day, so whilst I'm not in the same league as
the Beckhams, I am, by definition, rich. So are you and so is everyone else
in the US, UK and Western Europe.

> As for your Jewish thing, Madonna was not Jewish but Jesus was.

Please enlighten me on this. If Jesus' mother wasn't Jewish, then by
definition Jesus wasn't Jewish, unless He converted later.

> I am not going to get into a religious war with you though since this is a
> forum about cats.

I don't want to get into a war of any kind. I'd argue that a religious war
is an oxymoron anyway.

>And yes, I do give right now to only feline causes and would care less what
>other people say by my doing so. So far, nobody has really said anything
>negative about it.

Did you mean to say "wouldn't care less"? Can we please return to the issue
whether reproductive cloning of cats is "good" or "bad"? I suspect that we'd
have more common ground on that issue than on whther the lady in the news
story is "selfish" by spending 26 grand on a clone of her moggie.

I hope you are having a good Xmas. My disagreements with you on this matter
are not personal. I'm sure that you are a decent human being and quite
possibly someone I'd get along with well if we were to meet in person. The
trouble with the internet is that it's very easy to unitntentionaly give or
take offence when none is intended.

Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Cat Protector - 26 Dec 2004 20:37 GMT
If Jesus' mother wasn't Jewish then what religion or faith was she? It seems
to me that as much as you say get back to the issue of the cloned cat issue
that you keep bringing up religion here. BTW, I don't celebrate Christmas
but have no problem wishing those that do a Happy Holiday.

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www.panthertekit.com


> Please enlighten me on this. If Jesus' mother wasn't Jewish, then by
> definition Jesus wasn't Jewish, unless He converted later.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> person. The trouble with the internet is that it's very easy to
> unitntentionaly give or take offence when none is intended.
Zythophile - 26 Dec 2004 20:44 GMT
> If Jesus' mother wasn't Jewish then what religion or faith was she? It
> seems to me that as much as you say get back to the issue of the cloned
> cat issue that you keep bringing up religion here. BTW, I don't celebrate
> Christmas but have no problem wishing those that do a Happy Holiday.

I see, we don't have this concept of "Happy Holiday" over here. Even though
I'm a staunch atheist, I'm happy to wish others and be wished a "Merry
Christmas". I suspect it's a cultural difference between the two sides of
the Atlantic.

Now to return to the point; I agree that it's very worrying that any
organisation would provide cloned pets for anyone able to pay for it. What
I'm less concerned about is the "selfishness" or not of their customers.
Signature

Z
51? 37' 23" N,  3? 56' 27" W

Luvskats00 - 27 Dec 2004 03:42 GMT
"Cat Protector" catprotector@cox.net writes
>"...In a way she also is supporting animal
>overpopulation as well by not getting a >cat from the shelter. That woman
>should be ashamed of herself.
..."

That means that those who support "Feed The Children" should be against those
who support the rainforest; those who support and Aids charity slander animal
support groups?
Barb - 27 Dec 2004 16:11 GMT
Cat Protector, I didn't say I knew the woman with a cloned cat gave lots of
money to animal organizations.  I just said it was my feeling that she does!
Whether she does or doesn't, it's her money.  I guess you are a democrat, a
liberal at that and you probably believe in income re-distribution.  If
someone has more than you they need to give it to you, right?

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.
Cat Protector - 27 Dec 2004 16:30 GMT
What does political view have to do with an opinion? I don't ask if someone
has more than me to simply give it to me. I work hard for what I have got.
What this woman did was selfish. She spends $50,000 to get a cat cloned when
she could have adopted from a shelter and thus helped other cats as well. A
lot of shelters use the money made from adoption fees to feed, water and
give refuge to the other animals such as cats. It also helps pay for medical
care and other things as well. The woman did nothing to save a life here.
When you have lots of money or you meet with good fortune you should give
back as well. It doesn't pay to be selfish.

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Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
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> Cat Protector, I didn't say I knew the woman with a cloned cat gave lots
> of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Of course I don't look busy,
> I did it right the first time.
Monique Y. Mudama - 27 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT
> Cat Protector, I didn't say I knew the woman with a cloned cat gave lots of
> money to animal organizations.  I just said it was my feeling that she does!
> Whether she does or doesn't, it's her money.  I guess you are a democrat, a
> liberal at that and you probably believe in income re-distribution.  If
> someone has more than you they need to give it to you, right?

Whoa there, Nelly!  I'm a liberal (you say that like it's a dirty word) and I
believe that it's her money to do with as she pleases.

Jeez.  Republicans.  *grin*

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monique, who is sometimes allowed to pet Oscar, a grey^H^H^H^Hblue-cream DLH
with an attitude!

Mary - 27 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT
> > Cat Protector, I didn't say I knew the woman with a cloned cat gave lots of
> > money to animal organizations.  I just said it was my feeling that she does!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jeez.  Republicans.  *grin*

I don't usually use the "R" word with out the "f" word in front of it.
I used to think Barb was okay. THIS is why politics ought to be left
out of the cat groups.
Barb - 28 Dec 2004 15:58 GMT
Jeez, Mary, now that you know I'm an R you don't like me.  I guess I
alienated 50% of the cat group.

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 28 Dec 2004 21:14 GMT
>Jeez, Mary, now that you know I'm an R
>you don't like me.

I can't speak for Mary, but the fact that you're an "R" had nothing to
do with my reaction to what you said and consequent
decision to categorize you as a reprehensible bitch.

I have friends that are Republican, but I don't let political
differences cloud a friendship and prefer to keep that subject off
limits.

What irks me is this bullshit from you:

"I guess you are a democrat, a liberal at that and you probably believe
in income re-distribution. If someone has more than you they need to
give it to you, right?"

I know many democrats, and not a single one would agree with the above
and that includes me. My view that is you work, your earn and you have
what you have, and if you have a lot and want to share or use it to do
good, great, but I nor others believe that we have some sort of
entitlement to it if we have less.

If you want someone to criticize, you need look no further than your own
party and the war, the thousands of dead, innocent civilian victims and
over a thousand dead soldiers that are fighting for...what?...the record
deficit, unemployment, the deteriorating environment, nationwide
election fraud, the prioritization of corporate interests with a blatant
disregard for fairness or the more important needs of citizens, the fact
that we are now the most hated nation on earth, and the list goes on...
and on... and on...  

>I guess I alienated 50% of the cat group.

My guess is you're low-balling that number.

Megan

                                   
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Iain Halder - 28 Dec 2004 09:01 GMT
I don't think the woman is being selfish. Cloning is a new technology
which promises tremendous benefits for humanity as well, possibly, for
the rest of the animal kingdom. This woman has merely made use of
cloning technology to enliven the memory of a lost cat. I'm sure she
realises it is not the same as her original but those similarities she
has described will provide comfort to someone deeply hurt by the
original loss.

I know for myself that if I had the money to do such a thing then I
would not hesitate to do it for all of my three previous cats. Of
course, if I had such money then I know my local cat charities would
be very well supported and assisted financially as well.

Iain.H

>How do you know she donates a great deal of money to animal organizations? I
>think she is selfish for paying $50,000 for a clone when many cats in the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>overpopulation as well by not getting a cat from the shelter. That woman
>should be ashamed of herself.

Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes
 >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'<
    >'o'< www.cat77.org.uk >'o'<
Cat Protector - 28 Dec 2004 09:28 GMT
The woman is selfish and her cloning her cat does not help other felines.
All she did was add to the overpopulation problem and say NO to a cat
awaiting adoption in the shelter from getting a good home. That $50,000
could have helped a lot of cats in the shelter system.

You try telling a cat in the shelter that you are choosing cloning over
them. I would never have my cats cloned and if I was wealthy I would adopt
more cats from the shelter that needed a good home. Cloning does nothing to
help animals. It certainly doesn't help any of the cats already waiting to
be adopted find good homes. It also doesn't help the animal overpopulation
problem either. Cloning will add to it and thus ensure that more cats die
because the shelters are overcrowded. I wonder if you would have such a
supportive view of cloning if you saw the number of cats that die each year
as a result of an unwanted litter or saw how many cats were given up because
their humans simply had poor excuse for dumping them in the shelter.

Would you also be supportive of cloning if you saw someone drive down your
street and throw a cat out the window? How does cloning another cat help in
this situation. Many cats are dumped out on the streets each day simply
because the human had one of several excuses for doing so like "I am moving,
new baby, allergic," and the list goes on. You try pitching your support of
cloning to all the animal shelters that take in thousands of felines each
day.  I doubt you'll get a response in favor of cloning.

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>I don't think the woman is being selfish. Cloning is a new technology
> which promises tremendous benefits for humanity as well, possibly, for
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>  >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'<
>     >'o'< www.cat77.org.uk >'o'<
Dennis Carr - 24 Dec 2004 15:21 GMT
> SAN FRANCISCO-The first cloned-to-order pet sold in the United States is
> named Little Nicky, an eight-week-old kitten delivered to a Texas woman
> saddened by the loss of a cat she had owned for 17 years.

I saw the pic of Little Nicky.  Cute little bug that one, but there's a
funny thing about clones - you won't clone the memories.  Yeah, Nicky
likes water and all, but Nicky also doesn't remember "mom".  Nicky
probably only knows that this is "mom" from experience.

Tbat said, I gotta agree with Cat Protector.  Why the hell would you spend
$50k on a copy, when you can get a cat from the shelter?! Might as well
buy yourself a brand new mercedes benz for the cat.

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jmc - 24 Dec 2004 20:10 GMT
>> SAN FRANCISCO-The first cloned-to-order pet sold in the United States is
>> named Little Nicky, an eight-week-old kitten delivered to a Texas woman
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>$50k on a copy, when you can get a cat from the shelter?! Might as well
>buy yourself a brand new mercedes benz for the cat.

I'm trying to remember the name of a movie that had this in it - a
company named "RePet" that would provide cloned pets, complete with
memories...

Of course, even though he's cute, the cloned cat is NOT a true copy,
not without the exact same experiences as the original.

I also think that the $50k could be better spent - perhaps donate it
to a cat sanctuary?  

jmc
usenet [at] jodi [dit] ws
Any day you learn something isn't a total waste.
Monique Y. Mudama - 27 Dec 2004 20:23 GMT
> I'm trying to remember the name of a movie that had this in it - a company
> named "RePet" that would provide cloned pets, complete with memories...

The 6th Day.  An Arnie movie.  RePet was probably the best part of it =)

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with an attitude!

jmc - 28 Dec 2004 19:08 GMT
>> I'm trying to remember the name of a movie that had this in it - a company
>> named "RePet" that would provide cloned pets, complete with memories...
>
>The 6th Day.  An Arnie movie.  RePet was probably the best part of it =)

That's it!  Thank you.  Memory isn't what it used to be.

jmc
usenet [at] jodi [dit] ws
Any day you learn something isn't a total waste.
Barb - 24 Dec 2004 16:01 GMT
Well, I do understand it.  If I could have an exact replica of my Sapphire
I'd do it in a heartbeat if she ever died.  But I know that a lot of what
Sapphire is all about is the experiences she had before I found her and no
cat of mine will ever have such experiences.  (She was declawed and then
became a stray for 3 weeks before she was even a year old.)  Up until
recently she made a big deal out of making "little homes" for herself during
certain times of day.  Under the covers, in a kitchen shelf, etc..  Now
she's 14 years old and has mostly come away from all that but still she is
not just her genetics but her whole life experiences, same as us.

A precious cat of ours dies, our hearts break into little tiny pieces, and
then it's time to make a home for another deserving cat.

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.
Iain Halder - 28 Dec 2004 09:01 GMT
You made your point there in a very lovely way ...

Iain.H

>Well, I do understand it.  If I could have an exact replica of my Sapphire
>I'd do it in a heartbeat if she ever died.  But I know that a lot of what
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>A precious cat of ours dies, our hearts break into little tiny pieces, and
>then it's time to make a home for another deserving cat.

Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes
 >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'<
    >'o'< www.cat77.org.uk >'o'<
.oO rach Oo. - 24 Dec 2004 19:21 GMT
That $50 000 would have bought a lot of care for cats in shelters. Although
I can understand wanting the cat back as a kitten, I cannot understand the
amount of money she spent on doing it. I can't help but think there is
something wrong with this as a whole. It's not a matter of being hard core
against it (I am not religious) but it's more of this feeling of dread that
this is going to come back and bite us on the a.s one day.

Signature

.oO rach Oo.

> First cloned cat-to-order cost $50,000
> Woman wanted `identical' pet
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
> inexact
> science. It takes many gruesome failures to produce just a single clone.
PawsForThought - 25 Dec 2004 16:08 GMT
>First cloned cat-to-order cost $50,000

Too bad she didn't use the $50,000 to donate to a local shelter.  Imagine what
that could have done.
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm
dgk - 27 Dec 2004 16:27 GMT
>>First cloned cat-to-order cost $50,000
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
>Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm

Well, this is a false argument because the money would not have been
donated. Is this much different than me spending $4000 to keep my cat
alive for a few months? Not that I am in favor of cloning cats.
 
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