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Introducing 2 adult cats to each other - Advice please!

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Deadhead Archer - 03 Dec 2004 18:10 GMT
New member to this forum; thanks in advance for any replies!

I was recently married (11/27), and have started to move in with my
wife.  One of the bigger obstacles is the fact that we both have cats;
mine is an 9-year-old aggressive female half-Siamese breed that has
her claws, and hers is a 7-year-old mellow tomcat that has been
declawed.  My cat has never been around any other animals ever;
whereas her cat has previously lived with a dog.  Both cats are
indoor-only.  My cat is the only pet I've ever had, and my wife has
had limited experience with cats as well.

We purchased Feliway in the hopes of making this transition easier on
our beloved pets.  Her cat has been living in our new house since the
beginning of October; whereas I have to be out of my apartment on
December 14th.

To help in this transition, I have been bringing my cat over to the
house every night for a few hours for the past few nights.  We've kept
our cats separated by either putting them in separate rooms and
closing the door; or by keeping my cat in a transport cage.  Of
course, when near each other both cats growl and hissing.  We don't
want to "let them go and see how it works" as we fear injury.

At this point, we are considering keeping both cats in separate rooms
until they adjust - even if it takes months.  We are considering
rotating the cats' locations in the house throughout the day, keeping
one in the bedroom during the day and switching at night (moving their
food and litter boxes to accommodate them.  Unfortunately, the spare
bedroom is the only room we have that has a door to accommodate the
separation of the pets).

We aren't entirely sold on this idea, as our new house isn't much
larger than a 2 bedroom apartment (no basement) and keeping one cat
confined to the bedroom seems a little cruel, even if we rotate them.
My cat is used to a huge spacious apartment, and her cat has adjusted
to having reign of the rest of the house; and we fear that they may
become seriously depressed by being confined.

I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba), however because of her temperament
she probably wouldn't be a good adoptive candidate.  She really
doesn't tolerate anyone but me; and I fear that if I were to turn her
over to a humane society they would have to put her to sleep simply
because she's so tempermental.

My wife has entertained taking her cat to her parents; who would love
to have her cat (Kitty).  Yet I like her cat's temperament and don't
want to have to force her into giving up her pet simply because my cat
is a bitch (temperament-wise, of course)!

Can someone present some information on how to make this transition
easier for both of our beloved pets?  We both love our pets, and want
to make this transition as easy as possible!  Thanks again!
Karen Chuplis - 03 Dec 2004 18:30 GMT
> New member to this forum; thanks in advance for any replies!
>
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> easier for both of our beloved pets?  We both love our pets, and want
> to make this transition as easy as possible!  Thanks again!

Handling it gradually, as you are doing, is the key. Once you move in for
good, continue to do a gradual introduction, separating at the first signs
of agression. Switch who is out of the room and who is in the rest of the
house regularly. It may take a while but neither should have to give up
their kitty.
Gail Futoran - 03 Dec 2004 19:54 GMT
[snipping to add a few comments]

> New member to this forum; thanks in advance for any replies!

[snip]
> At this point, we are considering keeping both cats in separate rooms
> until they adjust - even if it takes months.  We are considering
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bedroom is the only room we have that has a door to accommodate the
> separation of the pets).

Good idea except I wouldn't do it on a daily basis.  I've
had friends who have had to keep cats permanently
separated, and they usually let one cat have the run of the
house for a few days to a week while the other(s) remain
confined to one room, then switch for the next few days
or a week.

> We aren't entirely sold on this idea, as our new house isn't much
> larger than a 2 bedroom apartment (no basement) and keeping one cat
> confined to the bedroom seems a little cruel, even if we rotate them.
> My cat is used to a huge spacious apartment, and her cat has adjusted
> to having reign of the rest of the house; and we fear that they may
> become seriously depressed by being confined.

I've had cats since the '60s and have moved a lot between
spacious houses and one & two bedroom apartments.  To make
it more complicated, my first cats were indoors only for the
first 7 years of their lives (apartment dwellers), and then became
indoor-outdoor cats for the next 11 years.

They've all adapted, even the older cats, even the most
high-strung Siamese.   :)  I think as long as you give them
fresh food & water, clean litter, toys, & visit daily, (& maybe
a radio or small TV for company), a cat can handle
confinement to a room for quite awhile.  They are sensitive
to you, so if you act like they're in prison, they might be
more upset then if you act like being in the room is a treat.

> I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba), however because of her temperament
> she probably wouldn't be a good adoptive candidate.  She really
> doesn't tolerate anyone but me; and I fear that if I were to turn her
> over to a humane society they would have to put her to sleep simply
> because she's so tempermental.

I think you're wise to take this into consideration.

> My wife has entertained taking her cat to her parents; who would love
> to have her cat (Kitty).  Yet I like her cat's temperament and don't
> want to have to force her into giving up her pet simply because my cat
> is a bitch (temperament-wise, of course)!

On the one hand I'd personally rather keep the more mellow
cat, but cats do tend to mellow with age (even your elderly
Siamese might yet mellow - some!).  As a last option, if the
alternating confinement doesn't work, I would agree that it
would make sense to give away to a good home the cat that
is easiest to adopt out.

> Can someone present some information on how to make this transition
> easier for both of our beloved pets?  We both love our pets, and want
to make this transition as easy as possible!  Thanks again!

Good luck!

Gail
Happily owned by Lao Ma, Ephiny, Minya, Mattie & Harry
Alison - 03 Dec 2004 21:46 GMT
>> My wife has entertained taking her cat to her parents; who would
love
> to have her cat (Kitty).  Yet I like her cat's temperament and don't
> want to have to force her into giving up her pet simply because my cat
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> easier for both of our beloved pets?  We both love our pets, and want
> to make this transition as easy as possible!  Thanks again!>>.

Good luck, I hope it works out.

some good advice from pam johnson-bennets Think like a cat forum

Cat to cat aggression
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ptthinkcat/?msg=14085.1

Introducing new cat
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ptthinkcat/?msg=13954.1

Interactive play time
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ptthinkcat/?msg=11667.1
Tracy - 04 Dec 2004 05:48 GMT
I truly appreciate the fact that you want to take your time
introducing the cats, but to expect instant adjustment without
growling and hissing may be a bit pie in the sky as far as
expectations go. I know it can be difficult to watch, but really the
growling and the hissing (not to mention hitting each other over the
head) is a part of the adjusting when two adult cats begin to live
together. It's very normal. And it usually looks alot worse than it
is. I'm not saying that it never happens, but injury is a fairly rare
scenario. I'd alternate periods of seperation with periods of letting
them interact ugly for a while. It's hard for them to work things out
at all if they are seperated every time one of them starts to hiss. I
doubt you have to give up either kitty: I just think you have to put
up with some fussing and fighting for a month or two. I know some
people here disagree, but after much futile strategizing on my part,
my two females (about a year and a half) pretty much worked it all out
after a month of low-grade violence and much hostility. They're fond
of each other now :
Cheryl - 04 Dec 2004 06:05 GMT
> I just think you have to put
> up with some fussing and fighting for a month or two. I know
> some people here disagree, but after much futile strategizing on
> my part, my two females (about a year and a half) pretty much
> worked it all out after a month of low-grade violence and much
> hostility. They're fond of each other now :>

This just isn't necessary, though. The stress that builds on the
"lesser cat" can really change their personality. It doesn't have
to be. Just letting them work it out can cause anxiety that doesn't
have to be if some basic steps are taken that are based on the way
cats think. Alison's links to "think like a cat" are great! I have
done the suggestions recently with mine, and in particular, the
play sessions and it really made a difference and built confidence
in a shy, formerly feral cat so that she's now playing with the new
kittens. I'm still taking the suggestions about not letting
agression get started. Nip it in the bud without the agressor
feeling like the bad guy. It's hard, but it's working.

Signature

Cheryl

twrl@britsysdsl.net - 10 Dec 2004 07:14 GMT
Like I said, some people disagree. The interesting thing though, is
that I was also introducing a shy semi-feral cat to an existing cat and
all the separating really wasn't working. The house was an armed camp
and both cats were extremely stressed out. When we finally decided to
just let them be, they worked it out in less than a week. The existing
cat calmed right down after setting up some "rules" for co-existence
and the shy semi-feral cat blossomed once she realized what the rules
were and how to get along. She has only gained in confidence and
personality  and they are quite companionable.

To some degree, I was well-served to understand the difference between
what was "cat business" and best left up to them. My meddling really
wasn't making it better and if anything, they were adding "me" to the
long list of things they were fighting about at the time. Just my
experience, of course, but what worked was spending quiet time with
each cat assuring them they were loved and then letting them deal with
each other as they needed to, while making it clear that I wished them
to get along and neither of them was going away.
Meghan Noecker - 10 Dec 2004 10:33 GMT
>Like I said, some people disagree. The interesting thing though, is
>that I was also introducing a shy semi-feral cat to an existing cat and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>were and how to get along. She has only gained in confidence and
>personality  and they are quite companionable.

I agree. We can reduce the initial shock by separating them and
introducing the smells, and we can limit how bad any fighting gets so
that we don't need vet care. But most of it has to be worked out on
their own. The time to really interefere is when it is getting worse,
and there are injuries occuring.

Even now, one of my cat likes to chase the other, but for the most
part nobody gets hurt. When he gets especially bad, I put a halter on
him. I call it the twisted halo. He suddenly turns into angel boy. I
also stop him when I see him getting ready to attack. And I will stand
guard sometimes when she is in the kitty litter box. He likes to come
and block her exit. But for the most part, nobody gets hurt. Some
occasional hair flurries, and some minor scabs. She has gotten better
at warning him when he gets closer, and he backs off sometimes. He
might be starting to mellow a little (he's only 4). But for the most
part, I let them work it out. I only interfere when it gets bad. And
just with the halter. I don't have to seperate them.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Phil P. - 04 Dec 2004 15:08 GMT
> New member to this forum; thanks in advance for any replies!
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),

I'd sooner give up my wife... in fact I did.   Her last words:  "The cats or
me"... She lost.

Just follow these instructions:

http://www.maxshouse.com/introducing_cats.htm
Mary - 04 Dec 2004 16:33 GMT
> > I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),
>
> I'd sooner give up my wife... in fact I did.   Her last words:  "The cats or
> me"... She lost.

Damn, Phil, that is radical! I'm glad my husband loves cats too,
as I am not quite ready to ditch him. ;)

> Just follow these instructions:
>
> http://www.maxshouse.com/introducing_cats.htm

I wanted to add that I don't believe there is any reason for
the OP to give up Kimba. He just needs to give things time--
as in months--and know that he does not want to join the ranks
of the callous morons who take cats in then throw them away
at the first challenge. I just know he doesn't.
Meghan Noecker - 05 Dec 2004 00:43 GMT
>> > I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Damn, Phil, that is radical! I'm glad my husband loves cats too,
>as I am not quite ready to ditch him. ;)

I'm not married yet, but I have always known that I am a package deal.
I don't want anybody that would make me give up my animals. They are
my  responsibility as well as my love. If I have to give up something
so important, I would never be happy, and then I would only resent the
person who made me do so.

I do believe that this situation can be worked out with some time, and
both people can and *should* keep their cats. If one gives one up,
even willingly, they will find themselves regretting it and eventually
resenting the other person.

My dad was never an animal person, but he married my mom. She had 3
dogs at the time and added cats later. Three kids - son likes dogs,
one daughter into cats, and one daughter (me) into both. Then we moved
to Iowa. My sister got a horse. Later, we moved back to Seattle. No
more horse, but I picked up the bug and now photograph horses. I hope
to have my own horse soon.  Oh, and my grandmother (mom's mom) lived
with us for 11 years. She moved in with 2 dogs and always had at least
one. And now my nephew (son's son) lives with us, and he has a cat.

We have never had less than 1 dog and 3 cats, and we have had as many
as 3 dogs and 7 cats at one time. And did I mention the turtles? My
mom has box turtles that roam around the house. We currently have 8,
but we have had as many as 13.

So, as you can see, this poor man was doomed. He had no idea when he
married my mom just how many animals would be coming into his life. I
have watched him change over the years, warming up more and more. He
still gets impatient sometimes, but he loves to play with the dogs,
and he works hard to get my shy dog into his lap. And he loves it when
my cat sits on the armrest and demands petting.

He is a true convent, so it is possible. But he also learned a long
time ago that it was easier for him to accept the animals than to deny
us our passion. he may be relunctant sometimes, but he has never said
no when we wanted another cat or dog. He loves us very much, and knows
how important those animals are to us.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Karen Chuplis - 05 Dec 2004 03:19 GMT
>>>> I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> no when we wanted another cat or dog. He loves us very much, and knows
> how important those animals are to us.

Ooo. Iwould love to see your horse photos! I really want to get that book
People we Know and the Horses They Love. I'm a horse racing addict and
started taking lessons last year in western pleasure riding. I am always
sooooo surprised at how soft my lesson horse is. She's actually at least as
soft, if not softer than my cats!
Mary - 05 Dec 2004 17:13 GMT
> >> > I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> so important, I would never be happy, and then I would only resent the
> person who made me do so.

Good for you for realizing this. I have gotten to the point where I don't
really trust people who are not animal lovers.

> I do believe that this situation can be worked out with some time, and
> both people can and *should* keep their cats. If one gives one up,
> even willingly, they will find themselves regretting it and eventually
> resenting the other person.

Yes, I agree--and it is rare for cats to permanently hate one another.
Usually given enough time they work out their differences and achieve
"detente" at least.

> My dad was never an animal person, but he married my mom. She had 3
> dogs at the time and added cats later. Three kids - son likes dogs,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with us for 11 years. She moved in with 2 dogs and always had at least
> one. And now my nephew (son's son) lives with us, and he has a cat.

It sounds like you have a happy household with never a dull moment! My
parents
loved animals too. We fostered dogs, cats, birds and even some frogs,
turtles and
snakes over the years! However--they allowed the cats out of doors and they
therefore never lived long. It's one thing to have a "philosophy" of
allowing
cats to roam (or keeping them in) but another to have convictions based upon
vivid and brutal memories of beloved animals torn to pieces by dogs or
found fatally broken and in pain  after being run over by cars.

> We have never had less than 1 dog and 3 cats, and we have had as many
> as 3 dogs and 7 cats at one time. And did I mention the turtles? My
> mom has box turtles that roam around the house. We currently have 8,
> but we have had as many as 13.

I LOVE turtles! Grew up with diamond back terrapins.

> So, as you can see, this poor man was doomed. He had no idea when he
> married my mom just how many animals would be coming into his life. I
> have watched him change over the years, warming up more and more. He
> still gets impatient sometimes, but he loves to play with the dogs,
> and he works hard to get my shy dog into his lap. And he loves it when
> my cat sits on the armrest and demands petting.

That's one of the best-kept secrets about having pets: they can actually
deepen and enrich the character of those with whom they live. Teach us
the value of physical affection, and the simple pleasure of the tactile. And
so
many other things. I think they are especially good for men.

> He is a true convent, so it is possible. But he also learned a long
> time ago that it was easier for him to accept the animals than to deny
> us our passion. he may be relunctant sometimes, but he has never said
> no when we wanted another cat or dog. He loves us very much, and knows
> how important those animals are to us.

I love a success story! Thanks for sharing it.
Phil P. - 05 Dec 2004 13:12 GMT
> > > I'd sooner give up my cat (Kimba),
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Damn, Phil, that is radical! I'm glad my husband loves cats too,
> as I am not quite ready to ditch him. ;)

The day I came home and found my cats hiding was the day I knew she had to
go -- and go she did that day.  I would not tolerate a situation where I had
to be afraid for my cats' safety.

The problem wasn't behavior, or fur; she actually resented the cats because
she thought I pampered them more and showed them more attention.  She was
probably right - but she knew that from day one.

I've seen people give up their cats for a man or woman and regret it for the
rest of their lives when the relationship failed, or they end up resenting
the other person so much that the relationship evenutally crumbles anyway.

Given the statistics for successful marriages, how many marriages last as
long as a relationship with a cat?!  Nevertheless, I'm always on the lookout
for a future x-Mrs. P.! LOL!

Phil

> > Just follow these instructions:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of the callous morons who take cats in then throw them away
> at the first challenge. I just know he doesn't.
Mary - 05 Dec 2004 17:18 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.org> wrote:>

> The day I came home and found my cats hiding was the day I knew she had to
> go -- and go she did that day.  I would not tolerate a situation where I had
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> she thought I pampered them more and showed them more attention.  She was
> probably right - but she knew that from day one.

OMG. You did not need a woman like that. I wonder what she did to them to
make them hide. I hope she never hurt them.

> I've seen people give up their cats for a man or woman and regret it for the
> rest of their lives when the relationship failed, or they end up resenting
> the other person so much that the relationship evenutally crumbles anyway.
>
> Given the statistics for successful marriages, how many marriages last as
> long as a relationship with a cat?!

I lived with Gnarly longer than with anyone else, including my parents.

Nevertheless, I'm always on the lookout
> for a future x-Mrs. P.! LOL!

Meanwhile you have good cat company.
Phil P. - 07 Dec 2004 07:56 GMT
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.org> wrote:>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> OMG. You did not need a woman like that. I wonder what she did to them to
> make them hide. I hope she never hurt them.

When I put my hand out, my cats usually sit up on their hindlegs to meet my
hand with their heads; Titi actually stands up.  That day, Jazzing flinched
and sorta ducked.   After finding them hiding - and then flinching when I
put my hand out... what would you think?  I was furious (gross
understatement).  If she was a man, she would have left horizontally.

> > I've seen people give up their cats for a man or woman and regret it for
> the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I lived with Gnarly longer than with anyone else, including my parents.

Me too!

> Nevertheless, I'm always on the lookout
> > for a future x-Mrs. P.! LOL!
>
> Meanwhile you have good cat company.

I'm with a pretty good one now.  I met her in a pet store; it started over a
lecture about dry cat food! LOL!  Most importantly, my cats like her -- and
thet have the final say!

Phil
Meghan Noecker - 07 Dec 2004 09:42 GMT
>When I put my hand out, my cats usually sit up on their hindlegs to meet my
>hand with their heads; Titi actually stands up.  That day, Jazzing flinched
>and sorta ducked.   After finding them hiding - and then flinching when I
>put my hand out... what would you think?  I was furious (gross
>understatement).  If she was a man, she would have left horizontally.

My dog is a rescue. When we got her, we just thought she was
neglected, but as she got over her fears of new things (never been
inside a house before), we learned what truly terrified her:

feet - walking near her, especially guys, would send her into a panic,
which made things worse, since she would jump up in front of you and
practically put herself under your feet. It took me months to get her
okay with me stepping over her, and longer for the rest of the
household to be able to do it.

airborn objects - anything, even a kleenex, was terrifying to her.

Anger - just yell (and not even at her), and she will run out of the
room. Still does. She will come back in an hour or so, check you out,
and decide whether it is safe to re-enter.

It doesn't happen much anymore, but if I yell at her, or she gets
really confused or upset, she will roll over into a submissive
posture. Or she might cower down likeshe expects to get hit. It is
really rare now ( a couple times a year), but it makes me angry every
time it happens. I want to go out and find her former owner and pound
them into the pavement. To hurt her so badly that she would cower down
6 years later just makes me so angry. How could anybody hurt this
sweet little dog? She is really an awesome dog, and they have no idea
the damage they did.

I think the last time it happened was when she came running around the
corner and ran into me. Bad timing, really, but she bounced off my
legs and acted like I had kicked her. I'm sure she thinks I forgave
her for whatever I "punished" her for. She doesn't understand the
concept of a simple accident and apology. She thinks in a very
different way than non-abused animals. It makes me sad and angry at
the same time. The cats have never been abused, so if I step on their
tail or something, they react, then accept my apology, and go back to
being a happy cat. They seem to understand it was not intentional and
not likely to happen again.

Signature

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Phil P. - 07 Dec 2004 14:17 GMT
> >When I put my hand out, my cats usually sit up on their hindlegs to meet my
> >hand with their heads; Titi actually stands up.  That day, Jazzing flinched
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> being a happy cat. They seem to understand it was not intentional and
> not likely to happen again.

I think cats and certainly dogs know the difference between being stuck
accidentally and being beaten.  I'm sure most of us have stepped on our
cats' tails or paws one time or another - and the cats don't seem to hold a
grudge over it.  What do you think?

My vet tells me all the time that he can tell which of his clients abuse
their cats - the cats tell him with their behavior.  He has to bite his
tongue when asks subtle questions and knows the client is lying.

Just thinking about that again is pissing me off.

Phil
KellyH - 07 Dec 2004 23:00 GMT
> My vet tells me all the time that he can tell which of his clients abuse
> their cats - the cats tell him with their behavior.  He has to bite his
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Phil

Ugh..  it's pissing me off, too.  Unfortunately, there's almost *nothing* a
vet can do about it.  It's not like with human doctors, how they can call in
a social worker if they suspect child abuse.  To prosecute someone for
animal abuse, you all but have to catch them in the act.  It's really sad.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Phil P. - 08 Dec 2004 08:14 GMT
> > My vet tells me all the time that he can tell which of his clients abuse
> > their cats - the cats tell him with their behavior.  He has to bite his
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> a social worker if they suspect child abuse.  To prosecute someone for
> animal abuse, you all but have to catch them in the act.  It's really sad.

Not only that, a person can have a healthy animal killed for no other reason
than they felt like it.  If they feel there's a possibility of prosecution
for abuse the animal is in serious danger of being killed.  Animal abuse
situations are very precarious and must be handled very delicately... and
sometimes... well, let me just say, when a cat's health and welfare are at
stake, the end *does* justify the means - at least as far as I'm concerned.

Phil
Rona Yuthasastrakosol - 08 Dec 2004 08:59 GMT
> Ugh..  it's pissing me off, too.  Unfortunately, there's almost *nothing* a
> vet can do about it.  It's not like with human doctors, how they can call in
> a social worker if they suspect child abuse.  To prosecute someone for
> animal abuse, you all but have to catch them in the act.  It's really sad.

If at all possible, *don't* move to Japan.  Even if you see someone abusing
an animal, no-one will do anything about it--not the police (they say the
laws are too vague to inforce) or the SPCA (because there is none).  Your
only recourse is to speak directly with the owner/abuser and when you're not
a Japanese speaker, that becomes very very difficult.  It's very
frustrating.  Actually, their general attitude regarding animals is very
frustrating.

rona

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Meghan Noecker - 07 Dec 2004 23:29 GMT
>I think cats and certainly dogs know the difference between being stuck
>accidentally and being beaten.  I'm sure most of us have stepped on our
>cats' tails or paws one time or another - and the cats don't seem to hold a
>grudge over it.  What do you think?

I think most do. But Jenny doesn't. She has always reacted to
accidents by cowering down or rolling over in submission. You can love
up like crazy after it, but it takes her longer to relax. She will
also stay spookier again for awhile.

I really don't know the extent of what happened to her. She turned 4 a
week after I got her, and she was still with the original breeder.
They had a boy a year older than my nephew, and I suspect he was the
main abuser. Jenny growled the first few times she saw my nephew, and
only growled at one other person, another boy the same age. It took
months and a lot of patience and treats to get her past that.

Jenny has come a long way and learned a lot of new things, but there
are certain mindsets she can't seem to break. For example, she doesn't
ask for anything. She may hang around while i eat, but she won't make
any attempt to beg. That sounds nice, but she also gives no sign when
she needs to go outside. It took ages to housetrain her because she
wouldn't ask to go out, and she learned a schedule, not location. Once
we realized that, we had to start all over to reteach her. Now that
she is getting older, she can't seem to hold it as long, and we are
having to retrain ourselves to let her out more often since she won't
give any hint of needing to go. No pacing, no going near the door.
Nothing.

She also cannot differentiate who is being yelled at. For example,
when I yell at Chase, he knows he is in trouble, and Kira knows that
Chase is in trouble. But Jenny doesn't. She thinks she is in trouble
and runs out of the room in a hurry. She cannot remain relaxed when
somebody else is getting yelled at. She reacts to the anger directly
as a reason to run. She can't register different levels of anger or
who it is aimed at. I can slam my toe or something, yell out, and she
will run out of the room.

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Phil P. - 08 Dec 2004 08:12 GMT
> >I think cats and certainly dogs know the difference between being stuck
> >accidentally and being beaten.  I'm sure most of us have stepped on our
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> give any hint of needing to go. No pacing, no going near the door.
> Nothing.

> She also cannot differentiate who is being yelled at. For example,
> when I yell at Chase, he knows he is in trouble, and Kira knows that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> who it is aimed at. I can slam my toe or something, yell out, and she
> will run out of the room.

It sure sounds like she was punished severely and abused -- probably for
"disturbing" her former owners to go out late at night.

I'm not a violent person (well, at least not since '67-'71) but I can sure
conjure up a few ancient Oriental tortures for people who abuse these
trusting, sensitive, innocent little creatures who enrich our lives so much.

Phil
Meghan Noecker - 08 Dec 2004 10:34 GMT
>It sure sounds like she was punished severely and abused -- probably for
>"disturbing" her former owners to go out late at night.

I think she was punished for barking. We were told she was outdoor
only, and she was definitely new to indoor sounds. And terrified of
doorways, stairways, and linoleum (it took 3 months to get her to
relax while being carried through/across those).

Anyway, she barked only once the first year. It was the second night,
and I think she was spooked by something. She has always had poor
eyesight, and even now, she won't jump off the bed with the lights
out. I feel her pacing, hit the touch lamp, and off she goes. That one
night, she let out a terrifying bark that had me standing up before I
was awake. Scared me for sure. I spent the next few months sleeping
with a lamp on for her and a mask for me, slowly lowering the light
level.

Anyway, she started off dead quiet. No vocalizations at all. Then she
started some moaning and groaning. Happy noises. She still does them,
and it is really cute. She does it when we are loving her up, and
sometimes when she is playing or grooming herself. And later, she
started singing. When I come home from work, she greets me at the door
and sings (aroo! aroo!). It's very cute, and much more pleasant than
barking. She does bark on rare occasions, but only when the other dogs
really get going, and she finally feels the need to join in.
Personally, I wish she would teach them to sing.

So, my guess is that she was punished for barking and learned at a
young age that it is best not to bark or ask for anything. And that is
something that I just haven't been able to teach her. I had hoped she
would learn when we taught the puppy. She's 3 now, and has never had
any problem asking to go out. We had to take down the string of bells
since she wanted to go out to play every 10 minutes.

What's strange is that this is a very smart dog. She knows that I will
not feed the cat in front of her I give him extra treats since he is
18 and skinny. She has an enlarged heart, and I can barely keep her at
a good weight (I think I can feel a rib, which is a first in a few
years). So, if teh cat is begging, and the dog sees me look around for
her, she gets up and leaves the room. She then hovers just around teh
corner and listens. If she hears any food hit the floor, she runs in
and I am caught. I can't feed one in front of another, so I have to
give her something. So, I have to be very careful that I look for her,
but don't let her know I am looking for her. She has also found a
blind spot in my room.

It is odd that she can be very smart in some areas yet completely
unable to grasp this concept. But I understand why, and it is rarely a
problem. It has started up a little again as she is older and needs to
go out more often. We need to improve our schedule and convince her
that the next trip out is not very far away. It would also help if she
liked to go out. I think she decided that she is used up her outside
quota. We actually have a deal that we will wait at the door for her,
and she will hurry. She hates to be left out there, and her reward is
being let in. It's a good deal and works for everybody.

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Meghan Noecker - 05 Dec 2004 00:29 GMT
I would start exchanging their bedding and other items that have their
smells on it. So, each cat, in the current  home, starts getting the
other scent on a regular basis.

Also, when they are actually introduced, try rubbing the blankets on
them so that they both have more of a combined smell. if they smell
more alike, they probably won't be quite as agressive. We used to use
perfume on both cats when introducing them. They were more confused
than upset.

When you take your own cat over, vary who gets which room while they
are spearated. They need to get used to each other being in the same
spaces, even if they aren't there at the same time.

You could also put the two on leashes and introduce them that way. You
control how close they get together, so any fights can be stopped. Buy
they can get close enough to sniff.

Several years ago, my mom's cat had a litter of kittens. My cat is
afraid of kittens, so he took one look, squealed, and ran away. The
mother cat went into attack mode. After that, anytime they saw each
other, Maynard would run in a panic, and Tov would attack. This
continued for months, long after the kittens were gone. It got so bad
that Maynard would hide behind the toilet, or up on my bookshelf.

This could not continue. He was way too stressed. Neither one of us
would dream of giving up our cat, so I came up with a plan.
Desensitization.  I live in the basement. So, I started by keeping my
door shut, except when I needed to go through. I had a sign on my door
as a reminder to everybody in the house (I also explained what I was
doing). My dog, and my 2 other cats were allowed to go up and down.
But Maynard was not to be let up for anything, and Tov was not allowed
down.

Because of the months of attacks, it took a few months for Maynard to
recover and be secure. I had to re-establish my room as a safe place.
He would actually panic if carried partway up the stairway. After a
few months, he would go up to the top on his own.

Once he was comfortable and relaxed in our room, then I started the
next stage of the plan. I would lock Tov in my mom's bedroom, and then
let Maynard up for a few hours. The first month or so, he was very
scared. He would hide and try to go back downstairs. The idea was to
get hom used to be upstairs without being attacked. He had to learn
that it was okay to be up there, and that attack was not imminent.
They also got used to smelling each other's scent in the common areas
of the house.

Once he was totally comfortable in the rest of the house, I started
bringing him up and holding him, while Tov was loose. This stage took
a couple months, and it was very important. I had two cycles to break.
Maynard would run because Tov attacked, but Tov attacked because
Maynard ran (he acted like prey).  

I could feel him tense up when he saw her, and she would tense and get
that predator look. They both had to learn to stop their previous
behavior. Maynard had to learn that Tov wasn't going to chase her, and
Tov had to learn that Maynard wasn't going to run.

Once he was relaxed when held, then I progressed to a leash. He had
some movement, but I could prevent him from running.

When that was good, then I switched it. I put Tov on the leash and let
Maynard loose. This stage actually went much better than expected. Tov
decided that she could not walk with a halter on, so she just laid
there on the floor, unable to go anywhere. She was actually quite
pathetic, so we started putting her in the halter and letting Maynard
loose.

We continued to supervise them for a couple more months before leaving
them alone with confidence. Tov and Maynard got along fine after that.
They were never buddies, but they could walk casually past each other.

It took almost a year for this process, but we let the attacking
problem go on for 8 months before starting that process. We had a lot
of damage to undo. Since you don't have the attack history, it should
be a shorter process.
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