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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2004Cat renal diet - need advice please
Hi I'm hoping someone here can offer me some advice regarding the practicalities of finding an alternative renal diet to the Hills Feline KD. I am in the UK and my vet, and all the other local ones only stock Hills. I've scoured the internet to no avail but to be honest, I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I adopted my cat (who is aged about 6) back in April from a rescue centre and just one month later she had to be taken to the vet for her excessive drinking and urinating. She was diagnosed with CRF. I was absolutely devasted as last year I lost another cat aged only 4 - to sudden heart failure. I'd had him since he was 7 weeks old but in April thought maybe the time was right to perhaps adopt an unwanted cat. I love her dearly and but am also finding it hard to come to terms with the it all. I did the wrong thing from the start and started looking on the Internet for more information on the condition only to end up more upset by what I learnt. Initially she took to the Hills diet like a duck to water and the excessive drinking and urinating slowed right down. A couple of weeks ago she caught an infection (how, I do not know as she is an indoor cat and too shy to go out). She ended up in the vets overnight on a drip to rehydrate her, plus antibiotics. She was quite poorly. Since then has refused to eat the Hills at all. In desperation to get her to eat, she's now enjoying (very much, by the way she tucks in), lamb flavoured dry Whiskas. I've tried reintroducing the Hills with it, being firm and not giving in when she refuses to eat it - all to no avail. I can't watch her starve herself and the vet said he would rather she ate anything than nothing. I'm looking for another alternative to the Hills, particularly another flavour other than chicken, and if anyone knows of something I'd be very grateful. The only other thing I can say about her food habits is that she has always refused 'wet' meat and will only eat the dried stuff. Before she had her recent crisis, she was doing so well on the diet, plus one tablet a day, you would never have thought anything was wrong with her. She was so full of herself. Now, she's back to that - but on the wrong food - and, according to the vet - facing monthly injections as well if she continues to refuse the renal diet. Thanks for listening. sarah > I'm looking for another alternative to the Hills, particularly another > flavour other than chicken, and if anyone knows of something I'd be > very grateful. The only other thing I can say about her food habits is > that she has always refused 'wet' meat and will only eat the dried > stuff. I'm so sorry about your kitty, this is a very difficult thing to deal with. I did some web searching and found a great link which lists protein and phosphorus content for various foods -- it looks like there might be some premium foods you could try (many of these can be ordered online, I think), and there are several veterinary diets besides Hill's. The site also lists some appealing-sounding baby foods: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm Good luck in finding something. Keep us posted. --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead sarah <sarah3291@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > sarah Being in the UK, you might be able to find a vet who carries the Waltham/Royal Canin diets since that's where they're based.. The Renal food is in a foil pouch and is tiny cubes with gravy. My CRF kitty at first liked it, then didn't. Your mileage may vary.  SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Can you find Purina's n/f over there? It's another renal diet, & one that my CRF cat liked a bit better than Hill's KD. Cathy > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > sarah > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've scoured the internet to no avail but to be honest, I'm not sure what > I'm looking for. <snip> There are some great yahoo groups that discuss CRF cats (we have one too). My favorite is Caring-For-CRF-Felines. There you will find all sorts of people with lots of experience on this issue. I've found this resource to be invaluable. Many people, myself included, do not believe Hills K/D is the best choice for any cat--too many grains, too many by-products, too low in protein. I personally have taken my CRF kitty off of that stuff, and only give high-quality, no by-products, dry and canned foods. They may be higher in phosphorous, but my cat seems to do better on foods such as this. With proper hydration, your CRF baby can live many years with this disease. Purrs to you! dragon >From: dragonlynx@my-deja.com (Dragon) > Many people, myself included, do not >believe Hills K/D is the best choice for any cat--too many grains, too >many by-products, too low in protein. I personally have taken my CRF >kitty off of that stuff, and only give high-quality, no by-products, >dry and canned foods. They may be higher in phosphorous, but my cat >seems to do better on foods such as this. All of the research completely contradicts you. Unfortunately, there are a lot of cat people who *feel* that they "know best" (despite all of the research and everything that is KNOWN about chronic renal failure in cats). Perhaps this will all work out, but I sincerely and strongly doubt it. High levels of phosphorus will hasten renal failure and you are surely playing with fire (and your cat's well being) here. You can have a lower "level" of protein as long as it is a high quality protein, btw. Not to mention that cats in the wild eat "by-products" all the time! > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've scoured the internet to no avail but to be honest, I'm not sure what > I'm looking for. Here you go: http://www.felinecrf.org/diet_and_nutrition.htm#refusal_prescription_food http://www.felinecrf.org/tinned_food.htm http://www.felinecrf.org/dry_food.htm I recommend you join the Feline CRF Support list too, link to it on homepage of above site. HTH Helen >Hi > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >sarah I don't know how advanced your cat's CRF is, and this is another Hill's option, but you might want to check into Hill's g/d. I have a CRF cat who refused to eat the k/d eventually, and after reading the Hill's manual, I asked the vet about g/d (this cat also has a heart murmur). Cosmo has been on the g/d for several years now, and is doing pretty well on it. I'm sure others will have other recommendations. Good luck with your baby. Ginger-lyn Hi again I'd just like to say a big thank you to everyone who replied. I shall check out all the links. I have already printed off a list of cat foods from one of them. My cat is still largely refusing the Hills k/d. However, I've tried a compromise with her - she has it left down at night with nothing mixed in with it. Most mornings she has ignored it (probably as she is now allowed to sleep on my bed since she was poorly recently) but today it looked like she'd at least moved it round the dish! Other than this change of food preference she seems virtually back to her old self again which I'm delighted about. She's off to the vet on the 23rd for a checkup so paws crossed things will still be ok. thanks again sarah >From: "sarah" sarah3291@hotmail.com >My cat is still largely refusing the Hills k/d. However, I've tried a >compromise with her - she has it left down at night with nothing mixed in >with it. Most mornings she has ignored it (probably as she is now allowed to >sleep on my bed since she was poorly recently) but today it looked like >she'd at least moved it round the dish! Hi Sarah, I found when I had a cat with CRF, it was more important that she ate, rather than what she ate. Of course, ideally a proper diet would be great. But many cats refuse to eat them, especially the Hill's brand. Maybe you could check with your vet to see if he can recommend another brand. I would also like to reiterate what others have said about the support groups. They were invaluable to me and helped so much. Here's a list of some CRF support groups. The very last one listed is the largest list: http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=feline+crf&submit=Search Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > Hi Sarah, > I found when I had a cat with CRF, it was more important that she ate, rather [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reiterate what others have said about the support groups. They were invaluable > to me and helped so much. Here's a list of some CRF support groups. While it is correct that a CRF kitty must eat, feeding a non CRF food will without question reduce the cats expected life span by half or more. There are now two Grade 1 Evidence Based medicine studies which cleary illustrate this point. Feeding a food with elevated levels of phosphorus, sodium, protein, and decreased levels of N3 fatty acids to a cat with CRF is recipe for disaster. There are many brands of renal failure diets available in the UK. Royal Canin, Eukanuba, and Hill's all are available. There are option within Hill's products = Prescription Diet g/d or k/d. Wet or dry. If you've been feeding dry - try a wet version, if you've been feeding wet - try a dry version. Try sticking it in the microwave for a few seconds to solubolize the fats and make more palatable. Work with your veterinarian. This is too serious a disease to fall victim to many of the internet fantasies that exist. Hi again Thanks for the continuing help. It is much appreciated. I've never cared for a cat with a long term problem like this before and am finding it so different to my previous experiences of being a cat owner. I did say in my initial post that my other cat died suddenly last year. He had a heart murmur but had never been ill in his life and lived his 4 years to the full. His life just stopped suddenly and whilst it was a shock I found it easier to come to terms with than what now seems a impending doom for my current cat. People who don't understand - and I've barely spoken about to anyone else really - have the attitude of why not just have her put to sleep. You can always get another one. It's not like its a human is it? Think of the money you'll save etc... I can't think like this for one moment. Whilst she is still enjoying life - which she was before her recent crisis - and is once again - it's not even an option. I made the decision early on not to prolong things if looked like she was not enjoying life. I decided not to continue the regular blood tests either. I don't need to know the levels of whatever, are creeping up. They've never crept down, so what's the point? I'll be guided by her. Keeping her away from the vet unless necessary, is part of her quality of life - as is giving her food she enjoys when she refuses all else. I'm persisting with the Hills k/d at the moment because I'd like to get her back on it. I'm due to phone the vet tomorrow for more tablets for her so I'll ask about the other renal foods mentioned. Once again, many thanks sarah >Hi again > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >found it easier to come to terms with than what now seems a impending doom >for my current cat. I'm so sorry about your other cat. >People who don't understand - and I've barely spoken about to anyone else >really - have the attitude of why not just have her put to sleep. You can >always get another one. It's not like its a human is it? Think of the money >you'll save etc... CRF cats can live for many years comfortably with the disease, so there is no reason not to give them every opportunity. >I can't think like this for one moment. Whilst she is still enjoying life - >which she was before her recent crisis - and is once again - it's not even [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >sarah My CRF cat, Cosmo, was diagnosed early, and it has been 4-1/2 years since his diagnosis. He isn't perfect, but except for some adjustments that have had to be made (Lasix, potassium), he is doing *very* well for a cat with this condition. I hope your baby will have yet a long life ahead of her. Best of luck to you, Ginger-lyn Ginger-lyn Summer <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >>Hi again >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Ginger-lyn Interesting you mention potassium, Ginger. My vet was concerned that she might be at a stage where she needs supplements. She check electrolytes, and nope! She's fine and her BUN and creatinine is barely elevated. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Just a quick update - things seem to have settled a bit now. My cat is eating the Walthams and seems to be back to how she was before her recent crisis. We've just had new central heating put in (an unexpected project), which meant we had no heating at all for a couple of days and nights. I was quite worried about how this would affect her as she is very much a comfort cat. - however she seems ok. I made up the one and only hot water bottle for her, wrapped it up in a fleecy blanket and tucked it under the duvet - she hardly moved from it for the two days! Talk about spoilt! Mind you - she deserves it. sarah ;) > Just a quick update - things seem to have settled a bit now. My cat is > eating the Walthams and seems to be back to how she was before her > recent crisis. That's great to hear! > We've just had new central heating put in (an unexpected project), > which meant we had no heating at all for a couple of days and nights. Ouch. I just went through this also. I am focusing on how energy efficient the new system is and how nice it is to have reliability for the winter -- but gosh it sure was expensive! > I was quite worried about how this would affect her as she is very > much a comfort cat. - however she seems ok. I think animals adjust to this kind of thing better than we do. > I made up the one and only hot water bottle for her, wrapped it up in > a fleecy blanket and tucked it under the duvet - she hardly moved from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mind you - she deserves it. She does! You're lucky to have each other, it sounds like. --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead Thanks. :) I look upon her as a treasured gift which I am very privileged to have. sarah sarah <sarah3291@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Hi again > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > sarah In the past month, my 16-8 cat has cost me $580. If her quality of life was doomed, I wouldn't do it, but you don't invest so much heart in an animal just to kill it off when it seems expensive or inconvenient. I was pretty bewildered when Kami was diagnosed with CRF in 2001, but I changed her diet and bought her a fountain and she's still kicking. The costs over the last are the blasted kidney infection that has, at least (I guess) dropped to her bladder. Like I'm going to put her down for getting a UTI. I've had one and I'm glad I wasn't euthanized (though it felt like I wanted to be at first). She hasn't had any of the big crashes or complications associated with CRF except for the hit and miss need for sub-q fluids. It's not a difficult "daily" conscious disease like diabetes or anything like that. You just have to learn to notice the signs of trouble and deal with it as you go. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >I found when I had a cat with CRF, it was more important that she ate, rather >than what she ate. Of course, ideally a proper diet would be great. But >many >cats refuse to eat them, especially the Hill's brand. Lauren, I'm going to continue to call you on your attacks on Hill's, subtle or not. What you just gave was an opinion and not a fact. "Many cats" DO NOT "refuse to eat....the Hill's brand". Nice try, once again, but still flat out WRONG! There are several varieties of Hill's diets that are effective in helping treat CRF. You need to update your talking points! ;) I have some GOOD news! I was able to get hold of the Walthams Renal dry food today from the vet. The tension was palpable as I rushed home, and promptly fell over my scarf as I hurried through the front door, almost falling on the cat who'd come to greet me. Still holding the precious bag of food, I picked myself up and hobbled to the kitchen, the cat looking at me down her nose and wondering if I'm drunk.... I picked up the dish of uneaten Hills and tipped it away. A new dish is plucked out of the cupboard (now she's getting interested - probably because she has not eaten today yet). I open the new bag of food, tip some out into a fresh dish, and in my anticipation more follow onto the counter and then the floor! Madam starts with munching the fallen ones on the floor - MIAOWS loudly at me as if to say 'hurry up!' The moment of tension is unbearable. Will she or wont she get stuck in? Phew! She adores it! She has had THREE helpings so far today. And me? Well I'm still hobbling on a twisted ankle but feeling much happier now I've found something she CAN have that she actually likes. sarah :) > And me? Well I'm still hobbling on a twisted ankle but feeling much > happier now I've found something she CAN have that she actually likes. Sounds good! Well, except for the twisted ankle of course. Hope you feel better soon and I know you're glad to have your kitty eating again. --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead >From: "sarah" sarah3291@hotmail.com >I picked up the dish of uneaten Hills and tipped it away. A new dish is >plucked out of the cupboard (now she's getting interested - probably because [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >She has had THREE helpings so far today. Sarah, I am so happy for you! I know what a challenge getting a CRF kitty to eat a new food can be. I'm so glad to hear she likes the Waltham's so much :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >There are several varieties of Hill's diets that are effective in helping treat >CRF. You need to update your talking points! ;) Hey Lauren -- this is a **CAT** newsgroup!!! Could you PLEASE try and keep it on topic? Having this mutt on here continually humping your leg sort of makes things OT, don't cha think?!? ;-> eq >From: ">equalizer <> >>>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >eq LMFAO!!! I know, EQ. I keep trying to shake the mutt off, but he keeps coming back. Guess all that Scie Die his owner is feeding him is going to his head. Wonder if Hill's makes a flavor for obsessive/compulsive disorder.... Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ;-> LOL!! Has anyone got any comments about Burns nutrition for cats? Before I found this group I emailed them to see if they did anything for a renal cat. They were extremely helpful and sent me back a leaflet which includes the following extracts - "Burns is low in fat and protein, as well as being highly digestible. However, if you need to further lower the net intake of protein and phosphorus try reducing the amount of Burns fed and supplement with well cooked brown rice or porridge (made with water not milk). Soluble fibre sources such as brown rice and oats are helpful when dealing with this condition because the fibre encourages the growth of 'friendly bacteria' in the intestines. This friendly bacteria needs nitrogen to grow and thus, uses up any nitrogenous waste in the body." Also - "To summarise: A diet of low protein and reduced dietary phosphorus is desirable for chronic renal failure. Fed correctly Burns is approved for the nutritional management of kidney function and support of renal insufficiency." "Burns is a complete food containing suitable levels of macro- and trace elements. It contains controlled levels of high quality protein. The digestibility of the protein is very high, limiting the amount of waste the body has to eliminate, which is very important to an animal with this condition. " "Daily feeding rates should be kept to a minimum. For advanced kidney failure Burns can be fed sparingly (i.e. 30 % less than recommended) with cooked rice/porridge oats etc. Supplementing with carbohydrates allows a further reduction in the protein and mineral content. It is essential that intake meets but does not exceed requirements." ---------------------------- They've offered to send me a sample and I have asked them how their product compares - percentage-wise in terms of protein and phosphorus to both Hills and Walthams and also Whiskas. My cat had an enthusiastic start to the Walthams yesterday but today - well, she's not quite as keen and I think she's starting to look for the Whiskas. (I'm NOT giving in!) sarah > Has anyone got any comments about Burns nutrition for cats? Yes. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, for any cat, CRF or otherwise. This company appears to be considered a high quality, holistic manufacturer, and I've no idea why. They began as a dog food manufacturer, and it shows. Their foods are way too high in carbs IMO. The first ingredient is rice, and the third is corn. Cats have an extremely limited nutritional requirement for carbs. In the wild, cats would only eat as many carbs as are contained in the stomach of a mouse. So why pump so many carbs into them in the form of this food? Plus the food only comes in dry form, hardly holistic in my book, particularly for a CRF cat. I think I already gave you this link, but please do read it, it tells you what's important to know nutritionally for a CRF cat: http://www.felinecrf.org/diet_and_nutrition.htm Helen Thanks Helen. Just thought I'd ask anyway as I had already emailed Burns before finding this group. I had another email from them this morning giving the following nutritional info - The protein percentage is 28% in both the cat foods. The phosphorus levels in the chicken cat food are 1.1% and in the ocean fish variety they are 0.77%. Magnesium and calcium levels are also important. These are considered low in the Burns food. In the chicken the magnesium is 0.12% and the calcium is 2.16%. In the ocean fish the magnesium is 0.09% and the calcium is 1.25%. -------------------- All the above seem quite high for a CRF cat so I shall avoid it. Thanks again for all the help. I'm still reading my way through all the various links, and the links from the links! It's still a new subject for me so is taking some digesting! thanks again Sarah > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Initially she took to the Hills diet like a duck to water and the excessive > drinking and urinating slowed right down. I think you should have another blood test done. Its possible your cat is recovering from ARF (acute renal failue) because no renal diet produces instant results. > A couple of weeks ago she caught an infection (how, I do not know as she is > an indoor cat and too shy to go out). She ended up in the vets overnight on > a drip to rehydrate her, plus antibiotics. She was quite poorly. Since then > has refused to eat the Hills at all. If she was fed k/d while in the vet's clinic, she may have developed an aversion to the food. She maybe associating the unpleasant experience at the clinic with the food. This is why "sacrificial foods" should be fed under certain circumstances. > In desperation to get her to eat, she's now enjoying (very much, by the way > she tucks in), lamb flavoured dry Whiskas. I've tried reintroducing the > Hills with it, being firm and not giving in when she refuses to eat it - all > to no avail. I can't watch her starve herself and the vet said he would > rather she ate anything than nothing. Oh absolutely. It doesn't matter how perfectly formulated a food is if the cat won't eat it. > I'm looking for another alternative to the Hills, particularly another > flavour other than chicken, and if anyone knows of something I'd be very > grateful. The only other thing I can say about her food habits is that she > has always refused 'wet' meat and will only eat the dried stuff. That definitely has to change - especially if she has renal disease. > Before she had her recent crisis, she was doing so well on the diet, plus > one tablet a day, you would never have thought anything was wrong with her. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vet - facing monthly injections as well if she continues to refuse the renal > diet. I've a problem with k/d with a few of our renal cats - I think the protein content is too low for all but end-stage renal cats. Protein should not be restricted in renal cats until their BUN reaches 60-80 mg/dl. The low protein content of k/d also contributes to unpalatability. Unnecessary protein restriction also can have very deleterious effects in cats. Our renal cats have made dramatic turnarounds on Hill's x/d w/Chicken. X/d contains more protein, acceptable phosphorus and ideal acidity for renal cats. In early to mid-stage renal disease, the acidity of the diet takes precedence over protein and phosphorus. In fact some feline nephologists believe the acidic nature of most feline diets may contribute to the development of CRF. Speak to your vet about x/d. Good luck. Phil |
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