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How Much to Feed Cat?

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Ruby Tuesday - 22 Nov 2004 20:53 GMT
I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately he's
been eating it all, and then wanting more.  Mico is almost one and a half
years old, and is Siamese.  I don't want him to become obese.  Due to hunger
he's taken to ugly habits like licking the floor when there's no more food
left.  Ugh.  Should I feed him more?  What is 'normal' for a cat like him?

Thanks in advance,

- Ruby Tuesday
I.P.Freely - 22 Nov 2004 21:05 GMT
> I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately he's
> been eating it all, and then wanting more.  Mico is almost one and a half
> years old, and is Siamese.  I don't want him to become obese.  Due to hunger
> he's taken to ugly habits like licking the floor when there's no more food
> left.  Ugh.  Should I feed him more?  What is 'normal' for a cat like him?

When mine were on tinned food they used to get a tin each a day & were still
hungry. I've been feeding scienceplan dried food for the last 10 or so years
and just leave a bowl out for them to help themselves.

Initially they binged because I assume they were used to eating food while
it was there when I fed them twice a day but quickly they realised that
there would always be food when they were peckish and just nibbled all
through the day. Unlike dogs, cats are able to excercise self control and
not eat everything within their line of sight and therefore shoud not really
get obese.

Of course there are rare exceptions but it also depends on what they are
fed, high fat human food might taste nice and be cute to feed them but is
basically bad for them. If you feed a good quality dried food and leave it
available all the time your cat shoud not need to binge and will eat to
suit.

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I.P.Freely

Monique Y. Mudama - 22 Nov 2004 21:19 GMT
>> I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately
> he's
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> not eat everything within their line of sight and therefore shoud not really
> get obese.

Hey now, watch the gross generalizations!  My dog "grazed" for his entire
life.  The bowl of food was always there for him, but he tended to only eat
when we were eating.  It probably helped that he had no other dogs to contend
with for food.

Anyway, I also leave dry food out for my cat.  I think most animals can handle
this sort of approach, especially if they become accustomed to it while young.
I use Nutro Natural Choice, as an aside, because it seems to produce the least
noxious litterbox offerings.

> Of course there are rare exceptions but it also depends on what they are
> fed, high fat human food might taste nice and be cute to feed them but is
> basically bad for them. If you feed a good quality dried food and leave it
> available all the time your cat shoud not need to binge and will eat to
> suit.

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monique

kaeli - 22 Nov 2004 21:43 GMT
> Initially they binged because I assume they were used to eating food while
> it was there when I fed them twice a day but quickly they realised that
> there would always be food when they were peckish and just nibbled all
> through the day. Unlike dogs, cats are able to excercise self control and
> not eat everything within their line of sight and therefore shoud not really
> get obese.

Many cats cannot be free-fed and will overeat, especially cats that are
indoors all day. They eat out of boredom, just like many people. America's
pets have an obesity problem much like their humans these days - cats
included. Indoor-only cats have a much higher obesity problem when free-fed
than indoor/outdoor, at least from what I've seen and read. I have yet to
have a free-fed indoor-only cat that *wasn't* at least chubby. The barn cats,
however, are free-fed and quite trim.

Many dogs can be free-fed and NOT be obese. I've had some that could be and
some that had to be portioned. Some breeds are notorious for having to be
portioned, such as labs and beagels. My GSD was free-fed, yet slightly
underweight, her whole life. Dogs with a high food drive cannot be free-fed.

> If you feed a good quality dried food and leave it
> available all the time your cat shoud not need to binge and will eat to
> suit.

They don't just eat when they're hungry. Neither do most humans.
And cats can have very low thirst drives. Eating nothing but dry food is a
known risk factor in having kidney problems later in life because of chronic
dehydration. Some cats will drink plenty to make up for the lack of water in
their food. Others will not. If a cat doesn't drink enough, their urine gets
too concentrated and they can develop stones, infections, and be constipated.
So if you choose to free-feed, be aware of how much your cat drinks. If it
isn't enough, you NEED to add wet. A cat's natural diet consists of all the
water they need, so in the wild, they wouldn't need to drink at all.

If I had known this earlier in my life, I really think I wouldn't have lost
the cats I lost at early ages due to bladder and kidney problems. We always
free-fed dry, too.
I now feed a combo of portioned dry in the morning and wet at night. (If
they'd eat decent quality wet food, I'd only feed them that.)

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Monique Y. Mudama - 22 Nov 2004 22:03 GMT
> They don't just eat when they're hungry. Neither do most humans.  

I still haven't figured out how Oscar is more than skin and bones, since she
seems to eat one kibble at a time.  She never parks herself at the bowl and
just eats.  Maybe she read somewhere that many small meals are better than 2-3
large ones?  Still, one kibble at a time ... it's just weird.  She seems to
drink more often than she eats.

Of course, she deals with tuna entirely differently!

> And cats can have very low thirst drives. Eating nothing but dry food
> is a known risk factor in having kidney problems later in life because
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the morning and wet at night. (If they'd eat decent quality wet food,
> I'd only feed them that.)

I didn't know this.  As with human care, it seems that good advice for one
goal conflicts with good advice for another goal.  Isn't constant wet food bad
for their teeth?

(Oscar eats entirely dry food except for a small portion of the can when
I'm having tuna, and her breath is daisy-fresh!  Well, maybe not daisy,
but it's not smelly at all.)

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Ruby Tuesday - 22 Nov 2004 22:15 GMT
> I didn't know this.  As with human care, it seems that good advice for one
> goal conflicts with good advice for another goal.  Isn't constant wet food bad
> for their teeth?

I don't know about that, but I *do* know that dry food is bad for them
period, according to this article:
http://www.catsincanada.com/articles/feeding.html

- Ruby Tuesday
Monique Y. Mudama - 22 Nov 2004 23:10 GMT
>> I didn't know this.  As with human care, it seems that good advice for one
>> goal conflicts with good advice for another goal.  Isn't constant wet food
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> - Ruby Tuesday

Interesting.  It makes some intuitive sense, but I'm reluctant to believe
anything I see based on only one opinion (not that sheer volume of opinion
guarantees accuracy, either!).

I'm trying to find more such opinions online, without much luck.  Can't seem
to find the right search criteria.

Oscar is also getting some shots in a week; I can ask our vet what she thinks
then.  (Not that vets and doctors can't be wrong!  We talked to a doctor while
Eric was in the hospital who had "never heard of" cat saliva being involved in
cat allergies, and gave us that condescending "I'll humor your silly layman's
ideas" look that I really, really hate.)

Signature

monique

Steve Crane - 24 Nov 2004 15:47 GMT
> I don't know about that, but I *do* know that dry food is bad for them
> period, according to this article:
> http://www.catsincanada.com/articles/feeding.html
>
> - Ruby Tuesday

   Dry food is not "bad" for cats - such a claim is utter nonsense
and totally unsupported anywhere in the literature. Neither are canned
foods "bad" for cats either.  Current hysterical carbo-phobic claims
not withstanding. Every one of the individuals currently pushing
carbo-phobia in pet foods have consistently failed to answer the
biggest question of all. Feeding canned foods, particularly some of
the ones currently on the market, _vastly_ increases the intake of
calcium and phosphorus. Take Pro Plan Adult Ocean Fish & Crab Entree
for an example. Here's a zero carbohydrate food - perfect for the
carbo-phobics. What happens when you take away energy provided by
carbohydrates and substitute energy provided by fats and proteins? In
almost every case the levels of various minerals _greatly_ increase.
The Pro Plan product is typical example. Calcium at a whopping 2.72%,
phosphorus at a whopping 2.07% DMB. Way in excess of what even a
grwoing kittens needs, much less an adult.

  The carbo-phobics consistently ignore the number two killer of cats
in this country - renal failure. Nobody can determine which cat will
die from this disease. Nobody has a crystal ball capable of
determining which kitty will be the next victim. Unfortunately we
cannot tell if a cat has renal failure until 70+% of the kidney is
destroyed and the cat is on a uninterruptable spiral to death. Feeding
a diet with phos levels as high as the majority of the carbo-phobics
preferred diets, to a cat with undetected sub clinical renal failure
would unquestionably speed that cat toward death. What would happen to
the cat population which contains literally thousands upon thousands
of cats with currently undetected sub clinical renal failure, if we
suddenly dumped all these cats on the carbo-phobics diet plan?

 This is the hard question that the carbo-phobics never want to
answer. If the current crop of hyperbolic carbo-phobics at least had
the common sense to caution prospective cat owners of the dangers
involved it would be one thing. If that had the common sense to at
least caution pet owners with older cats to check phos levels in a
diet it would be one thing. But instead they launch off on a
hyperbolic fantasy trip and alledge, without any proof whatsoever,
that every disease known to cats is the result of feeding a
carbohydrate based diet. An allegation for which they have zero
clinical trials or peer reviewed published data to support.

The website you quoted is typical example of carbo-phobia hysterics.
Below are a few errors from the website.

"Cats have a physiological decrease in the ability to utilize
carbohydrates due to the lack of specific enzymatic pathways that are
present in other mammals, and the lack a salivary enzyme called
amylase."

Nonsense – cats can and do utilize carbohydrates quite well. Cows lack
salivary amylase as well – following this nonsensical logic cows must
also eat a meat diet. While not recommended, cats can and do survive
quite well on a pure vegetarian diet. UC Davis currently has a colony
of cats that have survived quite well for generations on a corn gluten
based diet without any meat of any kind for many years.

"Diabetes:
"Diabetes is a very serious - and difficult to manage - disease that
is very common in cats. Why is it so common? The species-inappropriate
high level of carbohydrates in dry food wreaks havoc on the blood
sugar level of an obligate carnivore. The blood sugar level rises
significantly upon ingestion of dry food. With chronic hyperglycemia
(high blood sugar) the insulin producing cells in the pancreas
down-regulate, or "burn out," leading to diabetes."

Again nonsense. Cats that already have diabetes may be better served
with a low carb diet, or even a high fiber diet. There are lots of
peer reviewed published data to support either method. To make the
fantasy jump in logic that dry foods _cause_ diabetes is just plain
nonsense. Using this same logic - cats with renal failure must eat a
low phosphorus food, therefore high phosphorus _causes_ renal failure.
The proof of this logical fault is as follows: "My father ate green
peas as a child, he died of colon cancer at age 34, therefore green
peas cause colon caner" While the first two parts of the argument are
true, they in no way make the last part of the statement true.

About time for the legalese I suppose:
While I have been an employee of Hill's Pet Nutrition for over 20
years, any comment I make here is my opinion and my opinion alone and
should in no way be construed as representative of the company I work
for. It is my opinion and my opinion alone.
Ruby Tuesday - 25 Nov 2004 01:51 GMT
> > I don't know about that, but I *do* know that dry food is bad for them
> > period, according to this article:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>     Dry food is not "bad" for cats - such a claim is utter nonsense

[much interesting info snipped]

Thank you for your response, Steve.  Unfortunately, when Mico gets his paws
on dry food, he tends to focus in just on that, and the wet food goes to
waste.  He just does not naturally balance his intake.  Which is the main
reason why I've taken him off the dry.

IMHO, better he should have wet food, since he tends to leave his water dish
alone.  His litterbox is looking much healthier now that he's off the dry.
His stools have more moisture in them.  And he's getting good wet food:
Science Diet and Wellness.

- Ruby Tuesday
Steve Crane - 27 Nov 2004 02:49 GMT
> [much interesting info snipped]
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> - Ruby Tuesday

Ruby,
 No problem - there is nothing wrong with feeding canned foods. There
is good data to support feeding canend foods to any cat with cystitis,
bladder stones etc. I'm not at all opposed to canned foods, I just
hate to have people make choices based on nonsensical scaremongering.
Hodge - 29 Nov 2004 13:59 GMT
> Unfortunately, when Mico gets his paws
> on dry food, he tends to focus in just on that, and the wet food goes to
> waste.  He just does not naturally balance his intake.  Which is the main
> reason why I've taken him off the dry.

I've taken to feeding Hodge canned in the morning and dry at night. (All
canned and he has diarrhea; all dry and he's constipated.) So far, this
seems to be working for him. (He can't free feed as my other cat did as
he eats constantly and his weight balloons.)
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Monique Y. Mudama - 26 Nov 2004 05:09 GMT
>     Dry food is not "bad" for cats - such a claim is utter nonsense and
>     totally unsupported anywhere in the literature. Neither are canned foods
>     "bad" for cats either.  

Thanks for the info.  Now I'm totally confused =P

I've been feeding Oscar Nutro Natural Choice dry food for quite a while.  I've
tried other brands, but this seems to make the litterbox the least unpleasant,
which seems like as good a metric as any I can measure of my cat's health.
She gets a bit of tuna whenever I open up a can for myself, and very
occasionally she gets a little packet of wet cat food, but she doesn't seem
all that impressed by the stuff.

It would be foolish for me to assume that my cat's needs align with my own,
but I know that for me, many small meals are much more advantageous than 2-3
large meals.  I don't gorge myself when I finally get to eat, I feel full on
less food, I feel less lethargic, and I avoid the sugar highs and lows
associated with eating lots of food at once.  I see no reason why those
benefits wouldn't translate to Oscar, despite her feline metabolism.  She
seems to be pretty happy with the "grazing" approach -- she eats three
kibbles, then wanders off for a while.

Signature

monique

Karen Chuplis - 26 Nov 2004 05:34 GMT
Just as a side note (I never wade clear through these food fights.) when I
was growing up, we used to mix wet food with dry in a big pan and just dole
it out. 50/50. I think, if I ever  get to start with a kitten(s) again, I
will start them on a mixture and never look back.
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 26 Nov 2004 05:38 GMT
> but this seems to make the litterbox the least unpleasant,
>which seems like as good a metric as any I can measure of my cat's health.

But who's to say what a good healthy dump should look and smell like?

I would use other metrics than that.
-mhd
Phil P. - 26 Nov 2004 06:28 GMT
> >     Dry food is not "bad" for cats - such a claim is utter nonsense and
> >     totally unsupported anywhere in the literature. Neither are canned foods
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> but I know that for me, many small meals are much more advantageous than 2-3
> large meals.

Free feeding (ad libitum) is not advantageous for many cats - especially
males.  Feeding releases bicarbonate which produces a postprandial alkaline
tide that causes transient alkalinization of the urine.  Feeding throughout
the day protracts this alkaline tide and alkalinization of the urine which
may promote struvite crystal formation > which could lead to a urinary tract
obstruction in male cats and oliguric acute renal failure if not treated in
time.  In females, crystals can irritate and inflame the bladder wall
leading to interstitial cystitis.

I don't gorge myself when I finally get to eat, I feel full on
> less food, I feel less lethargic, and I avoid the sugar highs and lows
> associated with eating lots of food at once.  I see no reason why those
> benefits wouldn't translate to Oscar, despite her feline metabolism.

Normal cats don't experience sugar highs and lows because they maintain a
constant state of gluconeogenesis with only a slightly increased rate after
feeding.

She
> seems to be pretty happy with the "grazing" approach -- she eats three
> kibbles, then wanders off for a while.

She would probably be better off on canned food - higher water intake and
turnover than on dry food.

Phil
PawsForThought - 26 Nov 2004 12:58 GMT
>From: "Monique Y. Mudama" spam@bounceswoosh.org

>>     Dry food is not "bad" for cats - such a claim is utter nonsense and
>>     totally unsupported anywhere in the literature. Neither are canned
>foods
>>     "bad" for cats either.  
>
>Thanks for the info.  Now I'm totally confused =P

I think this article is very good on feline nutritional needs.  Cats are not
like us, as they are obligate carnivores with very specific needs:

http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

Lauren
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http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
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Steve Crane - 29 Nov 2004 17:32 GMT
> >From: "Monique Y. Mudama" spam@bounceswoosh.org
> I think this article is very good on feline nutritional needs.  Cats are not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Lauren

Dr. Zoran's article is quite good - but it is still nothing more than
hypothesis. She may be right - she may be wrong. So far no clinical
trials, clinical studies etc have been published or are underway that
would prove the hypothesis correct.

And again the same big issue goes unanswered by both Drs. Zoran and
other carbophobics. What would be the results of switching all cats to
such a diet?

1. Since we know renal failure is the number 2 killer of all cats, and
2. We know that sub clinical renal failure can not be detected until
70+% of the kidney is already destroyed, and
3. We know that increased levels of phosphorus can reduce the lifespan
of an affected kitty by half, and
4. Most "low carb" canned foods contain levels of phosphorus well
above the maximum adult KNF of 0.9% for healthy adult cats and hugely
more phosphorus than is appropriate for sub-clinical renal failrue
kitties. Some such zero carb foods contain as much as 400-500% mroe
phos than any renal diet.

Everything in moderation is a good axiom - and before one leaps off
the closest cliff to chase the latest fad it is good idea to think a
bit first.
GAUBSTER2 - 25 Nov 2004 15:57 GMT
>From: "Ruby Tuesday" willow93@yahoo.com
>Date: 11/22/04 2:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>period, according to this article:
>http://www.catsincanada.com/articles/feeding.html

Dry cat food is not "bad" per se.  There is a certain segment of the population
that is fanatical in their beliefs.  Since most cats in the US are fed dry,
wouldn't "most" cats in the US be sick?
jamie - 23 Nov 2004 02:37 GMT
> I didn't know this.  As with human care, it seems that good advice for one
> goal conflicts with good advice for another goal.  Isn't constant wet food bad
> for their teeth?

It used to be believed that dry food was better for their teeth (not
that canned was bad for teeth), but that opinion didn't consider the
fact that most cats either gobble dry without chewing, or chew it
very little.  Meanwhile, if they do chew, it's grain-based dry foods
that tend to leave a starchy coating on teeth to cause plaque,
while a low-carb canned leaves less debris in the mouth.

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kaeli - 23 Nov 2004 15:34 GMT
> I didn't know this.  As with human care, it seems that good advice for one
> goal conflicts with good advice for another goal.  Isn't constant wet food bad
> for their teeth?

Actually, new research is proving that idea completely wrong.
Cats don't grind their food - they can't. Their jaws aren't hinged that way.
So dry food doesn't do much for them, and it may even hurt because carbs are
sugar in disguise (as any of the low-carb diets so popular these days can
prove).

Proper care of cats should include a good dental regimen, anyway. No matter
what they eat, most pet cats do not eat what feral cats eat - bones. They
need their teeth cleaned by their humans. I brush my cats' teeth weekly.

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Hodge - 22 Nov 2004 22:32 GMT
> Many cats cannot be free-fed and will overeat, especially cats that are
> indoors all day. They eat out of boredom, just like many people.

Pudge was free-fed and always watched her own weight. Hodge eats like he
will never be fed again. Perhaps something happened to him to make him
like that.
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Mary - 23 Nov 2004 00:21 GMT
> > Many cats cannot be free-fed and will overeat, especially cats that are
> > indoors all day. They eat out of boredom, just like many people.
>
> Pudge was free-fed and always watched her own weight. Hodge eats like he
> will never be fed again. Perhaps something happened to him to make him
> like that.

Gnarly, former pregnant stray, free-fed for 20 years and stayed slim.
Buddha, raised
inside since kittenhood and spoiled rotten, is obese and cannot be free fed
because she
will eat the food until it is gone. Cheeky, former pregnant feral, is
rail-thin and free-feeds.
She eats very little canned food (I put 3 oz down in two feedings per day
but she eats maybe
half of that) but wolfs her dry food. I can't keep her up to 7.5 lbs most
months. Go figure.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Nov 2004 02:06 GMT
>Cheeky, former pregnant feral, is
>rail-thin and free-feeds.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I can't keep her up to 7.5 lbs most
>months. Go figure.

The reason Cheeky isn't eating more canned is because she's filled up on
the dry by being allowed to snack all day. When you've been snacking all
day on chips and whatever, my guess is eating a big dinner wouldn't be
too appealing. If you eliminate dry food and get her on scheduled meals
(every 12 hours) of a higher calorie canned food, she'll have the
appetite, will finish the food and you may be able to get some weight on
her. Innova in the red can is what I use to put weight on cats as it has
a higher calorie and fat content so you don't need a lot to get the
results you want.

Megan

                                   
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Mary - 23 Nov 2004 18:36 GMT
> >Cheeky, former pregnant feral, is
> >rail-thin and free-feeds.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The reason Cheeky isn't eating more canned is because she's filled up on
> the dry by being allowed to snack all day.

Now that I think about it, this is probably true, especially since
she seems to eat a LOT of the dry food.

When you've been snacking all
> day on chips and whatever, my guess is eating a big dinner wouldn't be
> too appealing. If you eliminate dry food and get her on scheduled meals
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a higher calorie and fat content so you don't need a lot to get the
> results you want.

Megan, I appreciate your input, and it may be a good idea. Here is why
I hesitate. This is the cat with major allergies, EGC (presenting as linear
granuloma usually, up the back of the legs) and asthma. When I last
discussed
changing their food, I purchased a bunch of better wet food (better than FF
would
be anything, but this was MaxCat, Nutro, and SD canned) to try on both cats.
(Granted, ideally I would get them on Wellness or Innova or the one Lauren
says
she orders online, I forget its name. But the first step was breaking the
habit
of the FF which is the only kind they eat up with gusto.) At that time,
Cheeks
had miraculously gone from needing a Depo Medrol shot every two months
to having one maybe twice a year. She had gone months with no asthma
attacks and no lesions. Once I changed her food--just the wet, not the dry--
she began, after two weeks, developing little bumps all over and licking her
fur off. I thought the licking was partly because she was upset at Boo
coming
upstairs a lot and settling into Cheeky's territory, but then I noticed the
bumps.
Since neither of the cats liked any of the new canned food I went back to
FF.
However, the bumps are still there and one side of Cheeks is almost entirely
bald now.

Here is the thing: when I discussed the FF with the vet at her last checkup
before changing the food, he told me he would not change her food, because
of her allergies and the fact that she was doing so well. It looks like he
was
right. I supposed I could just experiment around with the wet food but
understand that I love this little cat more than maybe anything. I don't
want
her so suffer for an instant. The other thing is, she LOVES this Purina tuna
and
salmon dry. She just picked at all other, better kinds. You know how it
feels
when you finally get a skinny little sickly cat eating with gusto? How can I
take
that away from her?
Sherry - 23 Nov 2004 22:52 GMT
> You know how it
>feels
>when you finally get a skinny little sickly cat eating with gusto? How can I
>take
>that away from her?

I know exactly how it feels. The most nutritionally superior food doesn't help
any cat if they won't eat it. I mean "won't.". Bootsie will not eat what she
doesn't like. Ever. It's so weird that she likes Purina Tuna & Salmon. Boots
will actually eat that. She eats Pro Plan Salmon much better, and *sometimes*
Fancy Feast. *Sometimes* Nutro canned.

Sherry
zuzu22@webtv.net - 24 Nov 2004 04:15 GMT
>This is the cat with major allergies, EGC
>(presenting as linear granuloma usually,
>up the back of the legs) and asthma.

What is she allergic to? Do you have specifics?

>When I last discussed
>changing their food, I purchased a bunch
>of better wet food (better than FF would
>be anything, but this was MaxCat, Nutro,
>and SD canned) to try on both cats.

> (Granted, ideally I would get them on
> Wellness or Innova or the one Lauren
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> one side of Cheeks is almost entirely
> bald now.

How long has she been on this particular dry food? I read the
ingredients and there are several that are known allergy triggers.

> Here is the thing: when I discussed the
> FF with the vet at her last checkup
> before changing the food, he told me he
> would not change her food, because of
> her allergies and the fact that she was
> doing so well.

What was she eating at the time?

>It looks like he was
> right. I supposed I could just
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> take
> that away from her?

If it's bad for her you don't have much choice, plus there are probably
other foods she will like that are better for her, and let's not forget
that the *way* you feed her can make a huge difference in how much she
likes her food. Email me with as much detail as you can about what's in
the foods you are/were feeding and what her allergies are, etc. and
let's see if we can figure this out. I really think getting her on a
better quality food is going to help, and scheduled meals will be
beneficial in getting her to eat better, but we need to figure out what
her triggers are first so we can figure out what foods would be most
appropriate to try.

Megan

                                   
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Mary - 24 Nov 2004 05:41 GMT
> >This is the cat with major allergies, EGC
> >(presenting as linear granuloma usually,
> >up the back of the legs) and asthma.
>
> What is she allergic to? Do you have specifics?

Perfume brings on asthma attacks, as do cleaning fumes.
I have no idea what food allergies she may have, the vet
just said allergies go hand in hand with asthma and the
EGC is thought to be associated with allergies.

> How long has she been on this particular dry food? I read the
> ingredients and there are several that are known allergy triggers.

She has been eating Purina One tuna and salmon for about a
year. Her first two years here I fed Iams and SD dry, plus the Iams
wet food they fed her at the shelter and the FF. She just picked at
the other dry food and barely touched the Iams canned.
It was during her first few months on the Purina that she showed
great improvement--e.g no asthma, no granuloma for months.
The only other changes I made at that time were that I stopped wearing
any perfume and stopped using a cleaning service I had been using. Now I
clean
my own house, w/o harsh chemicals or very well ventilated when
I have to. (Oven cleaning and such.)

> > Here is the thing: when I discussed the
> > FF with the vet at her last checkup
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What was she eating at the time?

Purina One tuna and salmon dry and FF
Chopped Grill. Believe it or not. The vet
agreed the FF sucks, but essentially said,
"whatever works."

> If it's bad for her you don't have much choice, plus there are probably
> other foods she will like that are better for her, and let's not forget
> that the *way* you feed her can make a huge difference in how much she
> likes her food.

I hadn't thought about this. I'd love to hear more--others with
skinny cats w/o much interest in food might benefit.

>Email me with as much detail as you can about what's in
> the foods you are/were feeding and what her allergies are, etc. and
> let's see if we can figure this out.

You know, I was trying everything and anything. She was not on
any one thing for very long. However--she had her worst symptoms
of all when I first brought her home from the shelter, and they appear
to have fed mostly Iams. I do remember that I switched from canned
Iams to the fishy flaked flavors of FF, and she liked it okay UNTIL that
fateful day when I began feeding FF chopped grill. Now she doesn't
want any other flavor--and is not even interested in tuna when I open
a can for myself.

>I really think getting her on a
> better quality food is going to help, and scheduled meals will be
> beneficial in getting her to eat better, but we need to figure out what
> her triggers are first so we can figure out what foods would be most
> appropriate to try.

Well, I do feed each cat half a can of FF at 12 noon and 12 midnight.
I would love to have them both eat better food.  I'll try and remember
what I was feeding her when she was at her worst--I think it was mostly
Iams. She isn't really too skinny--see her below. The first is her shelter
pic.
In the fourth you can see where she was starting to lick her fur off, over
her
left haunch. (Last August when Boo had those fainting fits.)
In the 13th you can see where she has kept her belly licked
bald since before I got her. Remember  how I said it looked like the spay
shave never grew back?  Now that I have seen what she has done to her side
I can see that she has kept her belly bald since she had been with me--the
backs
of her legs and now her KNEES are also naked and pink as a baby bird now.
Thanks for your help.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/crazyaboutfelines/my_photos
PawsForThought - 24 Nov 2004 17:22 GMT
>From: "Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com

>> What is she allergic to? Do you have specifics?
>
>Perfume brings on asthma attacks, as do cleaning fumes.

Mary, I feel your pain.  My Meesha also has asthma.  Fortunately, she's been
doing really great on a protocol my vet has her on.  One thing I did was to
only use natural cleaners and try to keep the house as chemical free as
possible.  I bought one of those steamers for cleaning floors.  I like it
because it only uses steam and no chemicals.  I also buy my cleaning supplies
at a health food market and I read the labels to make sure they're as
chemically free as possible.  I use vinegar a lot for cleaning too.

You say Cheeks still has the bumps.  In my mind, I'm thinking that even though
she's eating the food, it may be the food that is causing, or at least
contributing, to the bumps.  I think it would be a really good idea to take
Megan up on her offer and hopefully you can find a food that works for Cheeks.

Lauren
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Mary - 25 Nov 2004 11:40 GMT
> >From: "Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> at a health food market and I read the labels to make sure they're as
> chemically free as possible.  I use vinegar a lot for cleaning too.

Thanks, Lauren. I find I can use stronger cleaners such as soapscum
removers and bleach  when need be as long as I keep the bathroom door closed
and the fan on--and the cats out, of course.

> You say Cheeks still has the bumps.  In my mind, I'm thinking that even though
> she's eating the food, it may be the food that is causing, or at least
> contributing, to the bumps.

The vet says they may be a result of the actual process of licking her
fur off. Bear in mind that she does not pull out her fur, she licks it off.
That is a lot of licking!

Since she improved on the Purina (as opposed to the Iams and various other
dry foods she had been on for two years) and had no obvious asthma symptoms
(coughing, wheezing, that sort of thing) or granuloma for the first eight
months
she was on it, I do not think her dry food is contributing to the bumps. Now
that
Boo has settled down and is not coming into her "turf" a lot, I am hoping
she will
stop overgrooming. If she doesn't (e.g. if the fur has not begun to grow
back
in) soon I may think about changing her food. While it would be nice to have
this little cat on a wet food only diet, I fear messing around with her diet
too
much when she seems healthy. As always, I appreciate your input.
Laila - 23 Nov 2004 00:58 GMT
we feed Shaina one small can of wet food and have a bowl of dry for
her to eat during the day.  she also has water and i notice that she
drinks enough.  we used to give her 2-3 small cans/day and she didn't
eat that much dry food, but we decided that it was too much food for
her.  she is 8 months old.  is one small can enough in addition to
free feeding dry food?  she also helps herself to our food.  i was
eating a smoked salmon sandwich and she came over and started nibble
on the bread that was left.  i was still holding it.  is it ok for
them to have bread?  today she came over to "share" a honey glazed
donut.  i gave her a little.  i was wondering if carbs with sugar are
ok for her, in very small quantities.

-L
Ruby Tuesday - 23 Nov 2004 01:51 GMT
> we feed Shaina one small can of wet food and have a bowl of dry for

I forgot to mention that dry is out - last time I had wet and dry out for
Mico, he just gorged himself on the dry.  Dry is not an option.

> her to eat during the day.  she also has water and i notice that she
> drinks enough.  we used to give her 2-3 small cans/day and she didn't
> eat that much dry food, but we decided that it was too much food for
> her.  she is 8 months old.  is one small can enough in addition to
> free feeding dry food?

I would think so, IMHO.

she also helps herself to our food.  i was
> eating a smoked salmon sandwich and she came over and started nibble
> on the bread that was left.  i was still holding it.  is it ok for
> them to have bread?  today she came over to "share" a honey glazed
> donut.  i gave her a little.  i was wondering if carbs with sugar are
> ok for her, in very small quantities.

I'm no expert, but I don't think it's a good idea to share people food with
the cat.  Let's see what others think of this.

- Ruby Tuesday

> -L
kaeli - 23 Nov 2004 15:40 GMT
> is it ok for
> them to have bread?  today she came over to "share" a honey glazed
> donut.  i gave her a little.  i was wondering if carbs with sugar are
> ok for her, in very small quantities.

Carbs ARE sugar. That's what the body breaks them down into.

It depends on what you mean by "ok".
It won't kill them.
It might make them overweight, it might make them refuse their food, hoping
for yours, it might make them hyper, etc.
It's very dependent on the cat and how much you give them.

I rarely give my pets "people food" that isn't a natural food. They get left-
over meat products(chicken, steak, etc) as long as it wasn't pre-packaged
(too much sodium and crap in there). The dog also gets fresh veggies, such as
raw carrots.

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Priscilla Ballou - 22 Nov 2004 23:00 GMT
> > I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately
> he's
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> available all the time your cat shoud not need to binge and will eat to
> suit.

One exception to this may be a former feral.  My Sebbie, who was rescued
at 3-4 months of age, still doesn't fully understand that another meal
will be forthcoming and that each time I put food down isn't his last
shot at eating.  He had grown into a really "solid" build, to put it
nicely.

Priscilla

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Phil P. - 23 Nov 2004 03:32 GMT
> I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately he's
> been eating it all, and then wanting more.

Of course he wants more food; he's starving.  He's only getting about 1/2 of
his daily energy/nutrient requirements.

Mico is almost one and a half
> years old, and is Siamese.  I don't want him to become obese.  Due to hunger
> he's taken to ugly habits like licking the floor when there's no more food
> left.  Ugh.  Should I feed him more?  What is 'normal' for a cat like him?

Depends on his weight, activity level and sex status.  For example, a
moderately inactive, neutered, 4 kg cat has a daily energy requirement (DER)
of about 180 kcals (~45 kcal/kg/day  -- ~60 kcal/kg/day-intact cat).

I don't know which brand of food you're feeding him, so I'll use Science
Diet Adult Turkey as an example:  A 156 g can (5.5 oz "tuna can size")
contains about 174 kcals.  So, one can divided into two feedings a day
should be just about right.

There's a more precise formula for calculating the amount of food to feed
that involves adding the kcals/gram of protein, carbs and fat to get the
caloric density of the food, then dividing that sum by the cat's DER.  But
that level of accuracy is rarely necessary for normal feeding.

Phil
Ruby Tuesday - 23 Nov 2004 06:54 GMT
> > I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.  Lately
> he's
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> contains about 174 kcals.  So, one can divided into two feedings a day
> should be just about right.

That settles it, then.  This is the kind of answer I've been looking for.
Thank you.

- Ruby Tuesday

> There's a more precise formula for calculating the amount of food to feed
> that involves adding the kcals/gram of protein, carbs and fat to get the
> caloric density of the food, then dividing that sum by the cat's DER.  But
> that level of accuracy is rarely necessary for normal feeding.
>
> Phil
Dick Peavey - 24 Nov 2004 12:40 GMT
>> > I usually give Mico one half of a tuna sized can of food a day.
>> > Lately
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> - Ruby Tuesday

Squeaky eats about 1 to 1-1/3 5.5 oz cans a day, naturally it seems to
me. When I first adopted him he was starved and ate as if there would
never be food again. As his reassurance grew he settled down to a normal
pace for him, about what Phil says.

--
Dick
 
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