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Trooper Challenge Help?

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Robin Cook - 14 Nov 2004 21:42 GMT
I rescued/adopted Tigger, subsequently renamed him Trooper, when he was 6
months old. He had been abandoned in a house with a broken-legged dog.  I
loved his sweet personality when I adopted him, but discovered this mild
demeanor was due to being sick. After getting well, he terrorized me, but I
took on the challenge after numerous visits to my doctor to treat severe
bites and scratches.  He literally had no fear & would chase after neighbor
dogs that ventured near. I've had him now over a year and he is extremely
lovey, but I can't win against a weight problem. He's a gorgeous neutered
orange tabby. I went so far to buy three different timer food dispensers as
well as one battery operated one. At the time I had only one other older cat
and have rescued another sweetie 6 months ago.  I feel with certainty that
Trooper's mean behavior is neurological in nature. This has become more
apparent to me.  I suspect he had been injured prior to my getting him and
the pain preventing him from normal exercise, hence the weight gain. Some
can view it in the opposite way with weight pinching nerves, but he had been
thin when I got him. Also, the behavior of overeating is typical when
abandoned in a place unable to get food, so I have bided time to hope he
works it out. However, when petting him, when I reach his mid-back to the
tail, he growls and hisses and turns at my hand and will either bite me or
claw me (gentler these days, not like before).  Last night he would not even
let me pet his belly.  He's not ferral.  He's come a long ways since I
adopted him and is very sociable and endearing.   Just have to watch out for
those teeth and claws when he's unhappy.

My question here is where to start other than a "primary" vet?  Would like
suggestions in what may be done to explore his neuropathy and .. well, give
me some ideas so I can psyche myself more for the costly expenditures.  He
has urinated twice in my room this past month, so am further worried.  This
isn't territorial or behavoral .. just not his style (and it stinks, so not
diabetic).  What specialist or who does this kind of testing and treatment
.. if treatment or surgery can be done?  He really is overweight and I have
done what I can to control that with no success (no way can I keep him
strictly indoors .. he can truly be a very mean terror! ).  I had hoped the
new rescued cat might help him lose weight, but my instincts here is it is
neurologically related.  I've waited long enough .. and hope not too long.
Trooper is a challenge, but one I can see with a happier future.  I'm in San
Diego, California, so if anyone can suggest some place for this type of
specialty, I'd appreciate it.  This is Sunday and my plans are to start
moving on things tomorrow for him.  Thanks in advance.
blkcatgal - 14 Nov 2004 23:26 GMT
You may want to consult with an animal behaviorist.  Overeating and
aggressiveness may be a behavioral problem even though you may not think so.
Ask your vet if he/she can recommend someone.  The best bet is an
behaviorist that is also a veterinarian.

Good luck.

S.
>I rescued/adopted Tigger, subsequently renamed him Trooper, when he was 6
> months old. He had been abandoned in a house with a broken-legged dog.  I
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> specialty, I'd appreciate it.  This is Sunday and my plans are to start
> moving on things tomorrow for him.  Thanks in advance.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 03:59 GMT
Hi blkcatgal,

I never rule out a behavior problem, but I focus first for a medical cause
before accepting a personality issue.  I know all too well many cats have
some distinctive behavoral issues/problems.  A friend of mine had a cat that
would never accept her husband living in the house, so they always had to
close the bedroom door.  I was visiting one evening and I was watching their
cat, but didn't think anything about it when they had accidentally left
their bedroom door open.  Yup, the cat immediately went in and urinated on
the bed.  You should have seen both of them angrily chasing that cat around
the house!  I knew it wouldn't do any good, but it made them feel better to
release their anger over the situation.  I stayed out of it, but sat there
quietly and silently chuckling.  I agree about the overeating and
aggressiveness is a behavior issue for Trooper, which I've been working with
as patiently as I am capable .. and I get sly with learning new skills as
well as he gets older each day.  I do sense his behavior will be better ..
as it has already dramatically improved since bringing him home.  We butt
heads a lot, but we meet halfway in a comfortable resolution.  Other times,
he's not willing to shake hands and struts off into another room to pout.

As I'd mentioned I had bought these automatic timed feeders which has
reduced a great amount of stress on me for a "schedule."  My only other
alternative for weight control if it is a behavoral issue, is to strive to
alter his indoor/outdoor life and keep him indoors (lots of neighborhood
cats here and a lot of food put outside that I'm sure he manages to
partake).  He's been through so much that making this change at this
juncture may backfire dreadfully.  Even though I have had him with me a
little over a year he is still making many adjustments.  A year may seem a
long time, but it really isn't for all the things this little guy has had to
adapt and adjust into .. and very hard to know from what conditions his life
had been like.  So, will rule out medical themes first .. and one that I had
been thinking upon was neurological since injured or pinched nerves can be a
crux to some of his symptoms his displaying.
> You may want to consult with an animal behaviorist.  Overeating and
> aggressiveness may be a behavioral problem even though you may not think so.
> Ask your vet if he/she can recommend someone.  The best bet is an
> behaviorist that is also a veterinarian.
>
> Good luck.
Karen Chuplis - 15 Nov 2004 00:26 GMT
> I rescued/adopted Tigger, subsequently renamed him Trooper, when he was 6
> months old. He had been abandoned in a house with a broken-legged dog.  I
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> specialty, I'd appreciate it.  This is Sunday and my plans are to start
> moving on things tomorrow for him.  Thanks in advance.

Boy, I would look for arthritis. I've heard of this before in cats that have
arthritis in the back (probably from an injury. One of my kitties has it bad
in one knee we assume from an accident. My brother had her first and he
tells me she has always had a bad knee since they took her in as a 6 or so
month old kitten). For my cat, we put her on Cosequin and it made a big
difference in her comfort after about 3 months. A simple food supplement
could be the answer but you need an xray. For weight maintenaince, wet food
only could be the answer there.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 03:36 GMT
Karen .. you mentioned Cosequin.  What is it and what have you noticed
regarding side affects?  Constipation, sleepiness, etc.?

<snip> For my cat, we put her on Cosequin and it made a big
> difference in her comfort after about 3 months. A simple food supplement
> could be the answer but you need an xray. For weight maintenaince, wet food
> only could be the answer there.
Karen Chuplis - 15 Nov 2004 03:47 GMT
> Karen .. you mentioned Cosequin.  What is it and what have you noticed
> regarding side affects?  Constipation, sleepiness, etc.?

It is a glucosimine chondroitin supplement. NO side effects. You sprinkle it
on their food each day. It comes flavored. Costs about 18.00 for a 3 month
supply. Pearl used to shake her leg out behind her as she walked all the
time. Since getting the supplement (really takes a month or two to start
seeing a difference) she almost never does that. While she is a mouthy bitey
cat (some siamese there somewhere) she has calmed WAY down and is not nearly
so grumpy as she used to be. That is why this sounds to me so much like
possible arthritis.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 04:46 GMT
Karen,

I have a bottle of Glucosamine Chondroitin .. human supplements tho ... so
this Cosequin is a cat formula?  Does it give a dosage breakdown?
Prescription from a vet or over the counter at a petstore?  I'm for trying
supplements to help Trooper.  Before my husband died of lymphoma this year,
I had a daily regiment of various supplements (that didn't contradict other
meds he had to take) for him and the gluco-chond was one I had him taking,
so I am still well stocked and if dosage can be figured out, will go for it.
The jury was still out for me for this particular supplement for actual
benefits, but will give it a try after talking to the vet more.  My human
anatomy college instructor had told our class that a friend of his had done
extensive research on the shark cartilege to put it on the market.  The
results of that research, he said, was it didn't work.  But, it sold.  Some
people have gotten benefits from it, others haven't, so I'm still a fence
rider on this supplement.  I agree further that he may have had an injury to
his spine causing an arthritic spur that may be putting pressure on some
nerves.  I have a neck injury whereby spurs form and pinch various nerves
... some have caused me terrible pain.  Options?  Surgery to scrape the
spurs off or use a steroid cortisone injection, which smooths off the sharp
edges of the spur.  However, it removes healthy bone tissue in this
smoothing/sloughing off process, so this is one big reason docs and vets use
them sparingly .. bones can turn to mush with frequent injections.  The good
news is that the spur is targeted by the steroid and it takes a very very
long time for it to grow again .. and unlikely to grow again in the same
place or in the same fashion.  So, one shot usually is enough.  This
spurring is arthritis .. it's just the bone reforming from an injury (or
age), but it never reforms the way nature designed for us initially.  Before
I consider a steroidal injection for Trooper, I'd like to look and give
weight to all homeopathic remedies and various supplements like this as
you've mentioned.  Also, I still wish to rule out a neurological fix in the
way of surgery if that is or isn't indicated.  He's still very young and if
he can be without pain like it appears he's in, I'll do everything for him
that I can possibly afford.

> > Karen .. you mentioned Cosequin.  What is it and what have you noticed
> > regarding side affects?  Constipation, sleepiness, etc.?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> so grumpy as she used to be. That is why this sounds to me so much like
> possible arthritis.
Karen Chuplis - 16 Nov 2004 03:44 GMT
> Karen,
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> he can be without pain like it appears he's in, I'll do everything for him
> that I can possibly afford.

It is specially for cats, dogs and horse doses. I don't know what the
equivalent would be. It's so easy to sprinkle on the food and she just eats
it right up. You really need to get a vet to look first to know if that is
what it is. Arthritis has very few things that will help in cats. My vet
thought glucosamine chondroitin was quackery until she had a cat come in
that she tried everything possible and even sent the owner to a vet
university. 1000.00 later they had nothing to give the cat relief and she
felt very bad, but had gotten these samples of Cosequin in and so gave a box
to the owner to try. She was fully astounded when 3 months later the owner
brought in this cat that had been nearly immobile with arthritis that now
could jump a little and walk around. So it does *something*. I know it
helped Pearl. She used to shake her leg out behind her all the time (that is
a sign of pain) and now she almost *never* does that. I can't even remember
the last time I saw her do that. But you really need to see a vet.
KellyH - 15 Nov 2004 00:28 GMT
>I rescued/adopted Tigger, subsequently renamed him Trooper, when he was 6
> months old. He had been abandoned in a house with a broken-legged dog.  I
> loved his sweet personality when I adopted him, but discovered this mild
> demeanor was due to being sick.

<snip>

>  I've waited long enough .. and hope not too long.
> Trooper is a challenge, but one I can see with a happier future.  I'm in
> San
> Diego, California, so if anyone can suggest some place for this type of
> specialty, I'd appreciate it.  This is Sunday and my plans are to start
> moving on things tomorrow for him.  Thanks in advance.

Start with some basic bloodwork, a general health panel.  It's possible that
he could be diabetic or hyperthyroid, both of which can cause aggression.  I
would start there before looking for neurological reasons.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
www.kelltek.com
Check out www.snittens.com

Mary - 15 Nov 2004 00:36 GMT
> I rescued/adopted Tigger, subsequently renamed him Trooper, when he was 6
> months old. [...]

You have been through so much with him, kudos to you for taking care of him.
I only have one suggestion
for your vet to check out--it is called "feline hyperesthesia." My
ten-year-old female has it. She also is extremely
fat--and strangely, was fat when she had an overactive thyroid, which is
another story. Here is the point: her hyperesthesia got better after I
corrected her thyroid problem. There are lots of sites about it but here is
one:

http://www.thecatsite.com/content/view/20/27/

Although many cats get aggressive when petted, ours did not, she just wagged
her head
and said "mow mow mow."

Trooper sounds like an interesting boy and I would love to see photos if you
have any up.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 01:49 GMT
I've looked at the hyperesthesia site and Trooper isn't chasing his tail or
biting out chunks of fur .. maybe he'll start doing that at some point in
the stages of this condition if it is what he has.  I have had a complete
blood panel .. he's still just over 2 years old .. and the thyroid,
urinalysis and fecal.  No thyroid or diabetes themes.  I tried every brand
of prescription cat foods (yes, more than one or two cans .. and he would
NOT eat any of them).  The other alternative the vet had said to try was the
highest protein soft petstore brand kitten food and if that didn't work,
then try the petstore dry kitten food.  I have found he'll eat a little of
the canned foods, and I've done the deed with every one of the fanciest,
most nutritional type of treats as well.  I'm about ready to take lessons
from Crocodile Dundee.  He truly is a sweetie, but he has moments that he
will arch, snarl and give me that glare that says, "Don't you dare move that
hand of yours to touch my body!"  It's when I pet him and reach just to the
middle to swoop back to his tail that he gets fired peeved and with that
tubby belly, you'd be surprised how quick the jaws clamp down on my hand.  I
am able to talk to him as I work my experiment to determine just where on
his back the sensitivity starts. I feel he has had an injury since before I
got him, but has progressively gotten worse.  He seems to know what it is
that I am doing and is tolerant to where one eye and one ear will lean down
as I touch that initial sensitive area.

I have been concerned about this for quite some time and I had mentioned it
at my first vet visit after adopting him.  Naturally, when I was there at
the vet's that day, he didn't react to my touch .. it was more of an
intermittent reaction then, but now it is distinctly all the time.  I'll do
more research on this hyperesthesia to be a more informed mommie and be able
to confidently take my role in treatment if it turns out to be this
syndrome.  I don't wish to sound calloused, but three weeks ago I was so
frustrated knocking my head against the wall with figuring another plan for
dealing with Trooper's weight, that I was about to post a question .. "Do
they do liposuction for cats?"  He is in pain when I try to pick him up, and
it is a struggle for him to jump from the floor onto the bed.  I just went
in this minute and stood on my own scale with him and did the math .. he's
17.5 lbs.  He was good-natured when I went in and picked him up,
understanding and trusting me in my gentle movements to carefully lift him
up, but just as I set him down, he was begining to growl at me.  I feel
certain the growling and so forth is reaction/response to unidentified pain
he's experiencing.

Thank you for one theme to research ... any other suggestions I'm
appreciative.  How do I put a jpg photo here to post?  Or is that something
that isn't allowed?  I have some at Wal-Mart being developed.
Robin
Mary - 15 Nov 2004 02:11 GMT
> I've looked at the hyperesthesia site and Trooper isn't chasing his tail or
> biting out chunks of fur ..

Neither was my cat. She just reacted when petted. However, it does sound
like your boy has some sort of injury. I'll keep looking around, and
hopefully someone else will offer more helpful information. I'm glad
he does not have at thyroid problem or diabetes, though~!
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 03:33 GMT
Mary,

Yes, I'm glad he doesn't have diabetes (knock on wood .. gotta get the
weight off him, tho) or a thyroid problem.  I am leaning toward the FHS and
exploring the various treatment options ... ones that I can live with and
ones that Trooper will allow me to give to him.  On good days I can give him
medicine, but even I cringe at the idea and wonder if they make that
bulletproof vest stuff for people like me for gloves and arm coverings lol.
Actually, he's gotten better about trusting me and giving him medicine.  He
sees me give my older cat the Petromalt gel sometimes and I can see on his
face acknowledgement and acceptance of what I'm doing.  But, to give him
that stuff?  No way, he'll flap that tail and takes a posture that is akin
to foot-tapping with arms crossed firmly lol.  He's a crack up.
KellyH - 15 Nov 2004 02:12 GMT
> I've looked at the hyperesthesia site and Trooper isn't chasing his tail
> or
> biting out chunks of fur .. maybe he'll start doing that at some point in
> the stages of this condition if it is what he has.  I have had a complete
> blood panel .. he's still just over 2 years old .. and the thyroid,
> urinalysis and fecal.  No thyroid or diabetes themes.

I apologize, I misread.  I thought he was 6 years old.  Yes, at 2 yrs
hyper-T and diabetes probably wouldn't be an issue.  6 years would be young,
too, but not unheard of.
Anyway, you may want to look at the arthritis issue some others have
mentioned.  With his weight and unknown history before you got him, he could
have an old fracture that healed wrong and is causing him pain.  I don't
know much about hyperesthesia.
I wonder if he may have been absued and that is causing some of his issues
with being petted?

> Thank you for one theme to research ... any other suggestions I'm
> appreciative.  How do I put a jpg photo here to post?  Or is that
> something
> that isn't allowed?  I have some at Wal-Mart being developed.

You can post photos at sites like Webshots or Shutterfly, or there is a
binaries ng, alt.binaries.pictures.animals

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
www.kelltek.com
Check out www.snittens.com

Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 03:26 GMT
Kelly, When you adopt a cat from a petstore, at least here in San Diego,
they come from a volunteer rescue facility.  They do their best to get the
ones they deem adoptable into health, fix, vaccinate, flea treat, and groom
them.  If they have a story on the cat, they post it on the cage.  I have
suspected that Trooper had been abused physically, but it is difficult to
say for certain.  As I mentioned he was sick when I brought him home ..
seems they did the neutering, vaccination, flea treatment and grooming all
on the same day .. poor dear, and it was just way too much for him.  After
treating for the fever and vile runny stools he had, Trooper began
displaying his "stripes."  General Trooper of troops he was!  Observing his
behavior I was concerned about hyperactivity, but he was eating fine, his
fur wasn't ruddy or thinning .. and, young for hyperactive thyroid ..
couldn't rule out a medication reaction to having temporarily
hyperthyroidism, so I waited for his body to adjust and for him to adapt
more in his new home.  But, the ever constant nagging voice tickled at me,
so I did have the blood and other lab work done to make sure.  In talking to
the vet on a more recent note, he didn't seem concerned about Troopers
irritation around his tail.  I was worried he may have been abused and the
vet asked if even I had ever accidentally tripped over a cat?  Yuppers, I
sure have tripped over Trooper.  So, who knows?  Perhaps I injured him
merely from one sad step.

Also, I have contended with Trooper's behavior .. he was just plain ANGRY.
I can't say I blame him.  I was his venting claw board for quite some time.
And, to be frank, I had a lapse in feeling I'd taken on too much of a
challenge and had even called the rescue house to return him.  I was very
torn about it and mustered more determination to have another go at it.

I have had friends with cats who have had a similar tail twitching theme
like Trooper, but they were Siamese and as the websites indicate it is more
common in that breed.  I reflect back when he was little and wonder when was
the first time I had tripped on Trooper.  Poor baby.  I hate the thought
that I could have done this and am just beside myself.  I'm curious to know
if a cat like Trooper can "outgrow" this FHS ?  In reading some of the
materials, I'll discuss different ideas with the vet tomorrow .. perhaps try
an anti-inflammatory first.  I saw some natural homeopathic remedies on one
site, but I gleaned no information about them except to click to order ...
yea, sure, like I'm going to do that without knowing what it is?

I know vertebral injuries can grow spurs (as happens in arthritis), which
can pinch various peripheral nerves and the spinal cord.  Cortisone type
inflammatory injection smoothes the outer edges of a spur and reduces
inflammation, but I'd sure hate to see it, also, stimulate his appetite
more.  If he has a nerve damaged, but is reversible damage, I'd like to do
what I can.  I agree, Kelly, he could have had an injury that has healed
wrong.  Been speculating here a lot today and tonight and .. I'm rambling ..
I think I have a good path here to work with.  And, I'll dig out an earlier
photo I have on my computer of Trooper when he was younger .. and thin, and
see if I can get it put on one of those places you mentioned.  Thanks again.
Robin
blkcatgal - 15 Nov 2004 04:27 GMT
Robin,
My cat had a spinal compression due to arthritis in his lower back and his
symptoms started as not wanting to jump, difficulty getting up from a laying
position and then progressed to the point where he began walking with his
back arched, walking in circles, crying.  The orthopedic surgeon, when he
heard these symptoms, immediately said he thought it was a spinal
compression.  He did a myelogram and confirmed the compression and then did
surgery to correct the compression.  While my cat isn't  100%, he is much
better.  This occurred almost 2 years ago.

You may want to have Trooper evaluated by an orthopedic surgeon or a
neurologist.  Your vet can probably recommend someone.

Sue
> Kelly, When you adopt a cat from a petstore, at least here in San Diego,
> they come from a volunteer rescue facility.  They do their best to get the
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> again.
> Robin
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 04:57 GMT
Sue,

I'm really sorry to hear about your cat having this arthritic problem.  What
you are describing here is similar to Trooper insofar as hesitating to jump
and not really wanting to budge.  He's taken to laying on the floor instead
of hopping up on a chair or my bed.  I don't know, though, the FHS does have
many symptoms that Trooper exhibits, but this diagnosis sort of strikes me
as a mixed bag of symptoms of a syndrome given a name without any  legs.
Trooper doesn't arch his back but I know he is hurting and I'm bound and
determined to ferret it out.

I am curious to know if you had pet insurance and if not, how much did this
cost you approximately?  I don't have pet insurance, but had heard there is
one that doesn't have a long wait period or exclusions for prior existing
conditions.  I hope to find that printout that I did last year and give them
a call in the morning to set it up.  But, if you had pet insurance did it
cover some, most or how much of the expenses you incurred for your cat?

Robin
blkcatgal - 15 Nov 2004 13:48 GMT
Robin,
I did not have pet insurance and the myelogram and surgery was quite
expensive.....about $5000.  But it was better than the alternative.  Scooter
could not have survived if he didn't have the surgery.  Scooter's back
problems began about 6-8 months before they finally escalated to a point
where he developed the spinal compression and require the surgery.  If you
can get pet insurance that doesn't exclude a pre-existing condition, then I
think it would be worth it.  Whatever Trooper's condition is will probably
require some extra medical care.  It sounds like Trooper may have something
going on with his spine.....maybe from an old injury.  Has he ever had xrays
taken?  This may be the first thing that needs to be done.  Good luck.

S.

> Sue,
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Robin
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 15:02 GMT
S,

Considering I shelled out about $6K last year on Squirt (long story there in
which suspected human foul play was in the picture), I would gladly do the
same for Trooper, especially if it means he would have a better quality of
life than he has now.  I'm trying to remember if the vet did x-rays on him
(sorry, with three cats I forget which ones I've had x-rays done when I have
taken them in together).  I seem to recall I did have them done when I took
him to see the vet regarding a weight diet plan, but it may have been a wait
and see.  Considering the delicacy of spurs that can grow from injury on
bones, I don't much trust x-rays to adequately draw a picture as an MRI
would ... and your indication of having a myleogram done may be an excellent
path to take as well.   I am curious here further in how long was your cat's
recovery after the surgery?  And, what home care did you need to do after
the surgery.  It was a good five months for Squirt's recovery last year and
he is doing super now.  I had to keep him as isolated as possible from
Trooper .. and boy that was very difficult since Trooper is one of the most
determined little boys you ever saw.

The insurance that I am looking for I'd made a print out about last year is
the kind that specific vets will accept .. not your more expensive
insurance.  I figured with what price most pet insurance cost, I'd actually
be saving money not having it in the big picture.  And, thus far, that's how
it's been.  Basically, this insurance gives you a discount on many themes...
perhaps 10% or 20% .. forget exactly.  So, it shaves off a bit of the heavy
tag, but the bill still can be harmful to maxing out charge cards.

I'm sure that one of the first things the vet will recommend is an x-ray ..
and I'm considering asking for one of his head as well .. dunno if it would
show fine detail of what might be going on there.  It's hard to convey the
nasal breathing when folks look at his weight problem he has now versus
before since we all know breathing is more labored with the weight.  No
breathing probs for my other two and as said before, no allergies/asthma
according to the vet.

An issue for me is I like the vet I've been taking Trooper to see, but this
insurance I'm looking to get would require me to take him to another vet.  I
have looked at this other vet and the clinic has a good reputation, so am
trying to psyche myself up for a new vet and new account, etc.  Hard to say
if I will choose to go this direction, so first things first is to begin the
exploration of Trooper's problem.  The hard part is ... should I or
shouldn't I bother to get that insurance, and if so, I shouldn't delay since
it takes a little time for it to be effective.

When the symptoms began for your cat and it took 6-8 months to escalate ...
had your vet found the problem or had any suspicion of the compression
initially or during this period, or did you have to continue with more tests
until the worst symptoms occurred?
blkcatgal - 15 Nov 2004 15:53 GMT
Robin,
Scooter first began showing symptoms when he became hesitant to jump up.  We
are talking about a cat that we use to call "The Flying Walenda."  (This was
around April, surgery took place in December.)   I took him to the vet where
they did  a side xray (anything else would have required anesthesia).  Found
some arthritis in his lumbar-sacral area.  Vet recommended prednisolone (an
anti-inflammatory) but this really didn't help much.  We also put him on
Cosequin (a glucosomine supplement, but I have later learned that
glucosomine does not really help spinal arthritis).  You could tell that
Scooter's back and hind legs bothered him.  We just continued on for a few
months but I sensed Scooter's condition was getting worse.  I took him back
to the vet (in Oct.) where they did a full back xray (which required
anesthesia).  Confirmed the arthritis in his back; put him on another course
of pred.  Vet really didn't have much more to offer.  A few weeks after
getting the full xray is when Scooter's condition worsened....he was having
problems walking, back arched, walking in circles.  I called the vet and
asked whether Scooter should be evaluated by a specialist.  She recommended
that I take Scooter to an orthopedic surgeon.  I immediately made the
appointment for a few days later.  At this point, Scooter was having
problems urinating, etc. (I think it was painful for him to use the litter
box).  We made a couple of visits to the emergency clinic where they gave
him a shot (can't remember exactly what it was) and later some pain
medication (that made Scooter really dopey so I discontinued it).
Fortunately the day for the appointment with the orthopedic surgeon came and
he immediately recommended the myelogram (this clinic did not do MRIs but he
did tell me that I could go to another clinic about 4 hours away and have an
MRI done if I wanted to go that route) and the surgery.  Was very positive
that the success rate was quite high.  It was scheduled for a week later
(not soon enough in my opinion...Scooter was really in some pain!).  There
was one complication with the surgery...at the very end Scooter went into
cardiac arrest....but they managed to "bring him back" --thus the nickname
"Phoenix."  The cardiac arrest was unrelated to the surgery and we have
never been able to figure out what happened...a fluke, as one vet told me.
After the surgery, Scooter's recovery required that he be confined so that
he didn't jump, do stairs, etc. for about 4 weeks.  I confined him to a
large dog crate and only let him out when I was able to watch him.  After
the 4 weeks, I still would not let him do stairs for a while.  Scooter
tolerated the whole thing quite well I must say.  It's been almost 2 years
since the surgery and he still has some discomfort in his back and hind legs
(I'm sure the arthritis is still there.....just not compressing his spine).
He will jump up on the bed, sofa, but nothing higher.   We have continued
with the daily dose of Cosequin and occasionally when I think his back is
really bothering him, we give him dexamethasone (an anti-inflammatory much
stronger than pred).  I also give him a fish oil supplement because I've
read that Omega 3 is a good anti-inflammatory too.

Scooter was 13 when he had the surgery and is now 15.  He also is
overweight...a losing battle on my part.  I know if he lost a few pounds it
would help his arthritis.

Recently, I have explored the option of accupuncture.  But I'm not sure
Scooter is a good candidate because I doubt he would sit still while needles
are put into him.

I don't regret doing the surgery one bit.  Like I said, the alternative was
much worse.

Sue
> S,
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> tests
> until the worst symptoms occurred?
Robin Cook - 16 Nov 2004 09:26 GMT
Sue,

Your input here is very encouraging to me.  Considering the age difference
between Trooper and Scooter's, I feel even more encouraged.  I have dealt
with human spinal arthritis personally and for my husband and I'd mentioned
before in another post the jury is still out for me regarding the
glucosamine supplement.  Spurs on vertabrae affecting the spinal cord and
numerous nerves stemming from there is a different form of arthritis ..
termed more I believe as spondylosis ... it may be very minute but in such a
beginning damaging stage that an x-ray just won't show it.  I personally
went thru this myself with intense pain and had to have a myelogram and
later an MRI done.  If I had not had it done, I would have eventually been
paralyzed from my neck down.  X-rays had shown nothing.  I see Trooper in
pain and it simply is not logical to me to let him live forever with being
"sensitive to touch" that obviously is painful for him.  I, also, see in his
look at me that he truly wants to cuddle up with me like we did and he wants
me to hold him and pick him up for lovie, but he is talking to me here and I
can't accept FHS as being his diagnosis that has no means for fixing.   I'm
an oddball, I know, I know cats can't talk, but I know he is pleading with
me to help him desperately.  If there was some way for me to post a short
video of his face and facial expressions .. this boy has them to the hilt.
During this last week as things for him have become worsened .. growling,
hissing, biting, clawing .. from a cat that a few weeks prior was curled up
comfy upon my breast with his head laying on my shoulder, paws extended
around near my ears, and my arm around him with no growling, hissing,
biting, clawing.  I've seen intermittent bits occur with him , but these
last number of days especially since Thursday last week .. my only thought
is a very pinched nerve.  If no one here on this group has never had one, it
is a horrible and painful experience.  The body often manages to overcome
and correct it, but can and often takes several very long months to do so.

In view of Trooper's age and considering your cat's age in this given
comparison of symptomology, I may opt to request to do the full back x-ray
requiring anesthesia you indicated than doing an x-ray (if the vet is
amenable to this step first .. especially since I had talked with him before
about neurological concern).  I don't think it would show up on a regular
x-ray, but I do truly believe something is present and is unlikely to show
up on an x-ray purely because of his young anatomy.   Trooper hesitates a
lot to jump up and avoids it .. but, that durned window is too hard to
resist to jump up to look outside .. he can't live without that window, so
he pushes hard to jump up .. but, he has only the low level of my futon bed
(first level) to jump and to have a break to paus before jumping the back
top of my futon (I have it in the sofa position pimarily for him to reach
the window view).

You mentioned that Scooter's back and hind legs bothered him.  Can you
elaborate a little more on this for me?  I'd truly appreciate this part very
much.  Your observation(s).  I'm holding back my own mostly since I don't
know how to express it better than .. well .. they bother him.

Also, you mentioned Scooter had problems in walking .. walking in circles ..
back arched.  Can you elaborate more on this?  Did he act "jumpy?" I'm not
talking as in "skiddish."   I mean like he would perhaps growl or give the
expression he'd give if he were to growl and then get up, pause, move a few
paces, pause, go back to where he had been resting and pause again, and then
maybe just bolt and run down the hallway lickety split?  I don't know if
this describes walking in circles or if the running down the hallway is some
other type of response/reflex to arching his back since it would require
back arcing to scamper .. perhaps for relief or relaese of frustrationor
pressure of pain, dunno.

The urinating problem for Scooter ... and your mention of thinking it was
painful for him to use the litter box.  My cats' litter boxes are in the
garage, so I don't see Trooper's behavior there.  But, twice over a month's
time here he came into my room and urinated on my dirty and clean laundry
that I generally have never had in the places where they were.  Well, having
3 male cats one may think territorial or behavoral, but this just wasn't
normal.  He made a point of doing it in front of me as well, but acted
reluctant before he did so ... pain?  I, also, asked myself, did I not scoop
the box well enough?  Did your sweet Scooter urinate at any time outside his
litter box that you are aware?  I always have viewed urination outside the
box in front of me or knowing I'm aware or will know immediately the deed is
being done or done to be a dire communication.  Trooper's never urinated
outside his box (that I know about anyway ... nothing smells bad).  What
made you think it was painful for Scooter to use the box?  I know nerves
control the autonomic paths for urination and defecation, so am wondering if
you can express your thoughts about Scooter here and why you thought he was
perhaps having pain urinating?

Two years since surgery and what you've indicated tells me sweet Scooter
isn't in pain.  Cuddle and hug him for me would you?  I will have more
questions, just too tired tonight to write further.  Robin
blkcatgal - 17 Nov 2004 04:42 GMT
Robin,
When Scooter's condition got really bad, he had problems walking.  It would
be painful for him to get up from a laying position.  His back would be
arched.  And he would walk in a circle.  There was no spurts of running from
him, he really could barely walk.  I knew things were really bad when he
tried to climb the stairs, stopped and hissed and growled.  He really was in
some pain.

One thing I forgot to mention is that another symptom Scooter showed is that
he walked with his tail straight down.  He didn't lift his tail when walking
like cats usually do.  This coupled with the reluctance to jump and other
symptoms led me to believe there was something just not right.  To this day,
even after the surgery, Scooter still walks with his tail down most of the
time.

As far as the problem with using the litterbox, Scooter never went outside
the box, he would just go to the box and nothing would happen....or it
seemed like he was "holding it" because he knew it would hurt if he squatted
in the box.  I became really concerned when he hadn't urinated in over 24
hours and rushed him to emergency.  He wasn't blocked, and they assured me
that he would eventually urinate even if he was in pain.  And he did.

I think that his back and legs still bother him a little even after the
surgery because he walks slowly, his back and hind legs are a little
sensitive to the touch -- he may try to bite me if I touch his back or legs
the wrong way -- and he still doesn't jump like he once did.  But I know he
is much, much better than he was.  He does occasionally run (he tried
chasing a squirrel up a tree the other day).  I think the arthritis is still
there and being overweight certainly doesn't help either.

I hope you can find out what is causing Trooper's problems.  If you really
think it is a pinched nerve, you may want to skip the xrays since a pinched
nerve won't show up.  Can your vet recommend a neurologist or an orthopedic
surgeon for you?  This may be your best course.  Keep us posted.

Sue

> Sue,
>
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
> isn't in pain.  Cuddle and hug him for me would you?  I will have more
> questions, just too tired tonight to write further.  Robin
Karen Chuplis - 17 Nov 2004 05:38 GMT
> Robin,
> When Scooter's condition got really bad, he had problems walking.  It would
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Sue

But if it is arthritis, xrays will show that. I just wouldn't skip anything.
Trooper needs a vet.
Karen Chuplis - 15 Nov 2004 02:15 GMT
> Thank you for one theme to research ... any other suggestions I'm
> appreciative.  How do I put a jpg photo here to post?  Or is that something
> that isn't allowed?  I have some at Wal-Mart being developed.
> Robin

I really think you should get an xray and see if there is arthritis present.
The weight problem would definitely aggrivate that. You can post a pic at
alt.binaries.pictures.animals. I would love to see him.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 01:53 GMT
Oh, and one other thing that has been a concern is his nasal area has always
seemed to be troublesome for him.  He doesn't have an allergy or asthma
(checked that out).  Ever since I got him I can hear him inhaling the
majority of the time.  What conditions are there that involve the nose/sinus
area that .. well, if he's not getting enough 02 that lends a little into
the weight problem area too.  Perhaps someone injured his nose.
Mary - 15 Nov 2004 02:13 GMT
> Oh, and one other thing that has been a concern is his nasal area has always
> seemed to be troublesome for him.  He doesn't have an allergy or asthma
> (checked that out).  Ever since I got him I can hear him inhaling the
> majority of the time.  What conditions are there that involve the nose/sinus
> area that .. well, if he's not getting enough 02 that lends a little into
> the weight problem area too.  Perhaps someone injured his nose.

Hmmm. I hope nobody injured his nose. My Buddha breathes
loudly and grunts and groans and snores, but I know that is weight.
This is quite a mystery and I will look forward to someone shedding
some light on it for you. He sounds like such a neat boy.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 02:52 GMT
I've been reading more about the feline hyperesthesia syndrome (FHS) ..
finally found it was defined "sensitivity to touch."   I am reflecting on
his behavior upon adopting him after getting him to wellness.  He was very,
very active.  I have a laser pen that he just loves, but when he was still a
thin little guy, he would just not know when to stop going after that laser
light.  He would run himself so much he'd plop down in exhaustion and
literally pant from being overheated.  He had typical normal nighttime
scampering behavior and played with my oldest cat (he's 11).  I've noticed
this backside nerve rippling, but he doesn't attack his tail or gnaw at
himself.  He will just growl and flick that tail of his and glower only when
touched.  I'm chuckling here at the thought that if I were to combine
symptomatic behaviors of Trooper and my newest adoptee, I'd have a true-blue
FHS lol.  But, Greyson, my new guy is a gentile honey boy.  But, he jumps at
the slightest sound or movement, but immediately plants himself with a look
on his face as if to say, "I'm looking at you mom, you're sure that noise
was not dangerous and you don't think me silly for over-reacting?"  For
example, I just got a new down comforter for my bed and the semi-slick cover
is still stiff and crinkly .. I barely shifted it and the crinkle noise had
Greyson in mid-air to the middle of the room in the fastest grey blur of
speed.  But, he doesn't run and hide .. something balances him to bounce him
back to non-threatened mode.  Trooper, on the other hand plants those front
puppy paws like a bulldog ready for a face off.  He wasn't always that
confident, though .. it's taken time for him to get to this "maturity."
I've nicknamed him Mr. No-Fear.

Yes, the FHS is a definite path here to follow.  I'd like to see about a
neurological cause, but it appears that perhaps there is little discovered
in these explorations.  I am intrigued about the mention of CoQ enzyme,
which I have a nice stock, but would like to know dosage & schedule.  So,
looking at CoQ-10 which charges via muscles assists in electrical
neurological firing .. might work.  Wonder if there is a B-12 type of theme
.. vitamins being different for cats than humans, so B12 for neurology for
humans, wonder what works for cats?  I've only gotten into the 5th website
... still at it.  This is great help!  Thanks!!

> > Oh, and one other thing that has been a concern is his nasal area has
> always
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> This is quite a mystery and I will look forward to someone shedding
> some light on it for you. He sounds like such a neat boy.
Mary - 15 Nov 2004 04:34 GMT
> I've been reading more about the feline hyperesthesia syndrome (FHS) ..
> finally found it was defined "sensitivity to touch."   I am reflecting on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> this backside nerve rippling, but he doesn't attack his tail or gnaw at
> himself.

Robin, that rippling is the hallmark of the syndrome. Buddha did not
begin biting her forearm until we noticed the funny head swinging and
"mow mow mowing" and thought is was cute so increased petting
her. The she got so overstimulated she bit her forearm. Not hard,
no damage, but just a gentle gnawing. The vet said to STOP
petting her there as it was probably uncomfortable to her. But gosh
it was funny at parties. If we rubbed the base of her tail then said "Mow!"
She said "Mow!" Back. However many "mows" we made she
answered them!! Anyway, now we try not to touch there, but when
we do, she is not so sensitive.

>He will just growl and flick that tail of his and glower only when
> touched.  I'm chuckling here at the thought that if I were to combine
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> confident, though .. it's taken time for him to get to this "maturity."
> I've nicknamed him Mr. No-Fear.

Greyson sounds completely adorable. Gotta have pics!! Go to Yahoo.com and
set up a free
photo page! Here is mine:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/crazyaboutfelines/my_photos

Buddha is the black and white one and Cheeky is the grey tabby. The last
two are my beloved Gnarly who died at age 20 in 2001.

> Yes, the FHS is a definite path here to follow.  I'd like to see about a
> neurological cause, but it appears that perhaps there is little discovered
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> humans, wonder what works for cats?  I've only gotten into the 5th website
> ... still at it.  This is great help!  Thanks!!

You're welcome. Let me know what you find out.
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 05:11 GMT
Mary,

Your Cheeks is almost a dead ringer for my oldest 11 yr old cat, Squirt!
Amazing!!

Robin
Robin Cook - 15 Nov 2004 05:30 GMT
I managed to figure it out and here is a link to see pictures of Squirt and
Trooper that I had taken last year.  Squirt had major surgery on his foot
last year, so you will see some different colored bandages on his leg.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/robincook70/my_photos
Mary - 15 Nov 2004 16:39 GMT
> I managed to figure it out and here is a link to see pictures of Squirt and
> Trooper that I had taken last year.  Squirt had major surgery on his foot
> last year, so you will see some different colored bandages on his leg.
>
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/robincook70/my_photos

Uh oh, I couldn't access it!
Karen Chuplis - 16 Nov 2004 03:47 GMT
>> I managed to figure it out and here is a link to see pictures of Squirt
> and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Uh oh, I couldn't access it!

Robin, you need to make the album "public". Go to album preferences and you
can change the setting.
Mary - 15 Nov 2004 16:37 GMT
> Mary,
>
> Your Cheeks is almost a dead ringer for my oldest 11 yr old cat, Squirt!
> Amazing!!

Even more amazing, I had a kitten named Squirt when I was a child!
Seriously,
I joke that many times I marvel that there are so many cats that look just
like
Cheeks. I mean how can so many cats be that beautiful? ;)
Robin Cook - 16 Nov 2004 08:01 GMT
I truly wish to apologize here.  I was unable to get Trooper in to see the
vet today and since I couldn't, I have had a very very long day.  I have an
appointment late tomorrow afternoon.

I went to the website for my pictures of my two sweeties that I put on the
yahoo site and took me a little time to figure out how to "edit" the status
to be able to share the album of pictures to the public.  So, they are now
available to see.  I have other pictures of Trooper, but not sure how to
edit this thing to add more than 10 or does it mean that adding more removes
the ones I put on or what.  So, due to my brain farting with tired
weariness, I'm not going to try to put more pictures of Trooper on it ..
cuter ones if I can locate them on my computer.  So, try again now to see my
sweeties.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/robincook70/my_photos

I hope I did it right this time so the picture album shows the ten pictures.
Let me know if it doesn't, okay?
ceb - 16 Nov 2004 15:18 GMT
"Robin Cook" <gush70@earthlink.net> wrote in news:Ntimd.27646$KJ6.789
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/robincook70/my_photos

Awwww, they are cute!

--Catherine
& Rosalie the calicohead
Mary - 16 Nov 2004 16:37 GMT
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/robincook70/my_photos

Wow, Trooper is a big gorgeous boy! And I see what you mean about Squirt. I
love gray tabbies. How old was Squirt in these photos?
Karen Chuplis - 16 Nov 2004 18:11 GMT
> I truly wish to apologize here.  I was unable to get Trooper in to see the
> vet today and since I couldn't, I have had a very very long day.  I have an
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I hope I did it right this time so the picture album shows the ten pictures.
> Let me know if it doesn't, okay?

Poor Squirt!  I hope that footie is all better now. Trooper is beautiful!
They are both lovely.
Robin Cook - 16 Nov 2004 21:52 GMT
My cat, Squirt, is ...was 11 years old in the photos .. gee, I guess he's 12
now hahhaa.  The long story made as short as possible is I rented a room in
my house last year and proved to be a vile deadbeat.  I can't prove he had
anything to do with Squirt's terrible leg injury but .. well, it's like with
Scott Peterson .. no tangible evidence to link him to the crime, but all the
suspicious behavior is/was present.  All the leg bones had been broken in
many places and then jammed together .. and had healed for two weeks ..
Squirt was missing for two weeks.  His belly was lacerated as well.  I had
his dental done (he had a broken tooth), had some warts on his head and ear
removed (may see the stitches in the photos), sewed up the laceration .. all
done during the first surgery. So, upon his returning home and the resulting
surgeries and many many months of home IV's and numerous foot bandages (and
three expensive splints .. he got away from me a couple times), he is
completely healed and doing fine.  One claw on another foot was injured, but
it wasn't noticed until later and too late to fix it now .. and it works.
It just doesn't go back in his paw all the way so I can know it's him
walking down the hallway due to the little click-click on the wood floor.
One hard part here was I had decided to adopt Trooper just before Squirt
reappeared from being missing.  So, Trooper thought he was top cat of the
house when Squirt showed up from missing.  Talk about having my hands full
with my two sweeties.  I haven't made it to Wal-Mart yet to get my photos of
Squirt, Trooper and Greyson.  I was up too late last night and destroyed me
for accomplishing anything today. I had a most irritating day yesterday ..
another long story I won't go into, but I didn't sleep well.
Mary - 16 Nov 2004 23:44 GMT
> My cat, Squirt, is ...was 11 years old in the photos .. gee, I guess he's 12
> now hahhaa.  The long story made as short as possible is I rented a room in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> many places and then jammed together .. and had healed for two weeks ..
> Squirt was missing for two weeks.  His belly was lacerated as well.

Oh my god. That's really horrible. I hope that SOB is long gone and living
in hell now.

I had
> his dental done (he had a broken tooth), had some warts on his head and ear
> removed (may see the stitches in the photos), sewed up the laceration .. all
> done during the first surgery. So, upon his returning home and the resulting
> surgeries and many many months of home IV's and numerous foot bandages (and
> three expensive splints .. he got away from me a couple times), he is
> completely healed and doing fine.

>I haven't made it to Wal-Mart yet to get my photos of
> Squirt, Trooper and Greyson.  I was up too late last night and destroyed me
> for accomplishing anything today. I had a most irritating day yesterday ..
> another long story I won't go into, but I didn't sleep well.

Well, I look forward to them when you get them and hope you can
rest up and feel better.
 
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