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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2004My rationale for adopting and not breeding cats
At one time in my life (while I was still a student, which is a *good many* years ago), I thought I wanted to get a purebred cat. I thought I would buy one once I was established and could afford to buy a "good quality" kitten. Well, I changed my mind once I began to read about the huge number of cats that are euthanized every year simply because there is no one to adopt them (and especially after I served on the board of directors of our local Humane Society and did some volunteer work at the animal shelter, which exposed me "first-hand" to the horrors that many cats and dogs face). I then decided that I would adopt and save a life rather than buy. Ironically, I also learned that mixed-breed cats often have fewer health problems than many purebreds, especially those breeds where genetic defects have contributed to problems such as breathing, heart problems, and hip dysplasia. As a result, every one of my cats has been a mixed breed -- and each one has been a wonderful, loving, very special companion. The motivation for this message is that I just received the latest newsletter from our local Humane Society. The newsletter contains both local and national statistics for last year (2003). The latest statistics show than in excess of *FIVE MILLION* domestic animals are euthanized in animal shelters through the United States each year. This does not include those that are "privately" euthanized by owners, and the newsletter did not break down the data by type of animal. Our local animal shelter euthanized 3,458 animals in 2003; only 849 animals were adopted, and the local Humane Society also issued 385 spay/neuter certificates last year. I may be "preaching to the church choir" in this newsgroup, but if any of you still keep intact cats with the hope of breeding them (possibly to show your children "the miracle of birth" and give them the pleasure of watching cute kittens develop into cats) -- *please* spay or neuter your cats and adopt instead. You will be saving the life of another cat or kitten, and your children will not have to think about the "miracle of death."  SignatureMaryL (take out the litter to reply) Photos of Holly and Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (introducing Duffy to Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in") [...] > I may be "preaching to the church choir" in this newsgroup, but if any of > you still keep intact cats with the hope of breeding them (possibly to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > kitten, and your children will not have to think about the "miracle of > death." Nicely said, MaryL. I just wanted to add that fostering a mama cat and kittens for a local shelter is a wonderful way to enjoy kittens without contributing to the problem. It is hard to let them go, but then again, that teaches the children (and others) another lesson: love without possessiveness: a "larger love," in a sense. (Breeding, buying purebreds, and declawing, among other things, are practices that can only be rationalized/condoned when considered with severe myopia. This nearsightedness is really common in folks for whom everything is "all about me." I hope your post enables some people to move to another level and see the Big Picture. > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > whom everything is "all about me." I hope your post enables some > people to move to another level and see the Big Picture. Thanks! And, you have made an excellent suggestion re: fostering. MaryL >love without possessiveness: a "larger love," in a sense. (Breeding, >buying purebreds, and declawing, among other things, are practices >that can only be rationalized/condoned when considered with >severe myopia. This nearsightedness is really common in folks for >whom everything is "all about me." Meet Hakaisha (nik.ascendancy.net/fosterpage.html). I have two champion alter Bengals -- and Hakaisha, whom we discovered at 8 weeks old, severely malnourished, wandering our neighborhood. He had no fleas and no earmites. The vet says he probably hadn't eaten for a week or two to be in that condition, but his lack of parasites would suggest that he had been out and wandering for only a few days at most. We've dropped $600 or so on him in vet visits in the last two months getting him vaccinated, checked over, dewormed, and tested. He's now our baby boy, and gets the same love, care, and attention that our Bengals get. So tell me again how everything is all about me? How selfish and uncaring for domestic cats as species I am? Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > Meet Hakaisha (nik.ascendancy.net/fosterpage.html). I have > two champion alter Bengals -- and Hakaisha, whom we discovered at 8 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Orchid There are also a number of breed-specific rescue groups for a variety of purebreds (including Bengals). This would be a good way for someone to adopt a cat and save a life, yet at the same time acquire a specific breed. MaryL > >love without possessiveness: a "larger love," in a sense. (Breeding, > >buying purebreds, and declawing, among other things, are practices [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > So tell me again how everything is all about me? How selfish > and uncaring for domestic cats as species I am? You did a nice thing for Hakaisha, the stray you adopted. >> love without possessiveness: a "larger love," in a sense. (Breeding, >> buying purebreds, and declawing, among other things, are practices [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid that poor little baby! You can see his head is so much bigger than his body. I hope he gets healhy. Please update occassionally. >that poor little baby! You can see his head is so much bigger than his body. >I hope he gets healhy. Please update occassionally. He's doing better now (that picture is a couple of weeks old). He's gone up to 2.5 pounds now (did I say that before?) and he's got much more energy and is more 'in balance' looking. Still skinny, but finally acting like a kitten. His legacy of starvation is thankfully not the desire to eat everything in sight -- instead he gets very very possessive of 'really good treats'. We discovered this when my husband gave him three largish chunks of roast chicken as his treat for taking his medicine. Hakkai tried to stuff them all in his mouth at once and went a little nuts growling and swatting at the pieces he couldn't get in his mouth and hiding them under his body and protecting his food from no one. He was so upset that he couldn't make himself actually eat his treats. It was really sad. We used some long, soothing strokes on him and talked softly to him and he finally calmed down enough to be able to eat. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >>that poor little baby! You can see his head is so much bigger than his >>body. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid Ah, that's sad. That reminds me of tales my father used to tell of some people who had gone through the Great Depression and then would hoard food and other items out of fear that there wouldn't be any more. I wonder if it would help to dole out treats in small portions until Hakkai learns that he is really safe and won't have to be hungry any more. (That last line sort of reminds me of "Gone With the Wind." ;o)) Thanks for adopting him. MaryL > I may be "preaching to the church choir" in this newsgroup, but if any of > you still keep intact cats with the hope of breeding them (possibly to show > your children "the miracle of birth" and give them the pleasure of watching > cute kittens develop into cats) -- *please* spay or neuter your cats and > adopt instead. You will be saving the life of another cat or kitten, and > your children will not have to think about the "miracle of death." There are certainly enough films showing birth beautifully and graphically that this is a pretty lame reason just to produce excess cats or dogs. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ I did go through having the Siamese cats as a young adult and just loved them so and gave them the best of care. They lived to 11 and 7 and 3 and then I had the heartbreak of their losses and at that point I decided to get black alley cats because I had seen a beautiful sleek black cat running across a lawn one day while driving. The black cats have well outlived the Siamese probably because of no inbreeding and I love them just as much as I did the Siamese. -- Barb Of course I don't look busy, I did it right the first time. > I did go through having the Siamese cats as a young adult and just loved > them so and gave them the best of care. They lived to 11 and 7 and 3 and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -- I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. Not so much the modern super-flat and narrow head, but the blue eyes and the points and the lovely creamy coat. I want a cat that looks like this for purely selfish reasons--they are so beautiful!! When I feel I can take another cat, I'll get one from a shelter. Happily these looks appear to occur naturally, which was a surprise to me. That a Siamese-looking cat could be born of a tabby mother floored me. Me, too. Our rescued, pregnant stray was a gray and white tuxedo cat. Three of her six kittens were siamese. Sadly one was stillborn. Another one is a lynx (or tiger) point. I have always wanted one of those and could not believe that one was born in our house! The other girl is blonde and white, with gray points. She has a couple of white smudges on her face and pale blue eyes. They are both gorgeous. I was looking for homes for them earlier this year, but now they are ours... Rhonda > I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. > Not so much the modern super-flat and narrow head, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > me. That a Siamese-looking cat could be born of > a tabby mother floored me. > Me, too. Our rescued, pregnant stray was a gray and white tuxedo cat. > Three of her six kittens were siamese. Sadly one was stillborn. Another [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I was looking for homes for them earlier this year, but now they are ours... Lucky you!! Do you have photos posted somewhere? > Rhonda > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > me. That a Siamese-looking cat could be born of > > a tabby mother floored me. <snip> > I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. > Not so much the modern super-flat and narrow head, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > me. That a Siamese-looking cat could be born of > a tabby mother floored me. My first stripey Siamese was from a litter that a classmate's cat had- the mother was a calico, as was one of the kittens. The other kittens were black and white tuxedo kitties, and the one Siamese kitten. We took the calico kitten and the Siamese kitten. When Nosey and Scamper went to the Rainbow Bridge (Nosey about 3 years ago, and Scamp this spring), I went to the shelter and found Ming- a Siamese-marked young (maybe a year?) old nutered male. About 6 weeks later, my son's girlfriend (Cassie) showed up with two kittens from a litter born to a feral mother near the office where Cassie's mom worked. Both kittens have striped Siamese markings. I took the little female (Buttercup), Cassie had someone else interested in the little male. Like you, I don't like the body/head shape of the purebread Siamese cat, but I *LOVE* the dark mask, tail and legs with the blue eyes. Ming has another really cute feature- all 4 paws are white. A Siamese kittey is really sweet, but a Siamese with white tooties is special. If you want to see pictures of Ming and Buttercup: http://homepage.mac.com/kworley/photos/PhotoAlbum22.html Katrina > <snip> > > I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > were black and white tuxedo kitties, and the one Siamese kitten. We > took the calico kitten and the Siamese kitten. Yow, a STRIPEY Siamese?! Sounds cool. >When Nosey and Scamper > went to the Rainbow Bridge (Nosey about 3 years ago, and Scamp this [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://homepage.mac.com/kworley/photos/PhotoAlbum22.html ahhh, Gahd, they are beautiful!! Those little white feeties are precious. :) You're right, very special on a Siamese colored cat. Are your kitties very vocal as Siamese are said to be, or is this just from the breeder Siamese? >> <snip> >>> I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > very vocal as Siamese are said to be, or is this just from the breeder > Siamese? Ming is *very* *very* quiet... he doesn't meow (well, except when he's on the way to TED). He makes this funny sound- I've never heard anything like it from any other cat. It's not a mrrp?, it's not a growl, it's something in between. Buttercup is more vocal, but even she's not very talkative. The most vocal cat I've ever had was Scamper- the calico with the stripey Siamese sister. Nosey wasn't very noisey, but Scamp made up for it. She'd wander around the house making these little noises just like she was talking to herself. If you answered her, you'd swear that she was carrying on a coversation with you. I think she just like to hear the sound of her own voice. Katrina > Ming is *very* *very* quiet... he doesn't meow (well, except when he's > on the way to TED). He makes this funny sound- I've never heard [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > answered her, you'd swear that she was carrying on a coversation with > you. I think she just like to hear the sound of her own voice. Nice cat family you have there. :) I find the differences fascinating. My old cat had a silent meow (like "k-k-k-k-" unless she howled soulfully due to"ohhh noooo I'm gonna hurl!" or later due to senility. OR if she was afraid or angry, then the lonnnnggg, high pitched whiny growl.My Cheekyis very expressive and has cries for everything. Flying by she saysMrrp! in greeting. When she is in an approach/avoid situation (say I am trying to catch her to pill her, and I have her shut in a room, and she wants out and I crack the door and stand there like, "go ahead, I won't grab you!" Well, she KNOWS I will, but she wants out really badly, so she makes a teeny, tiny, high-pitched complaint-- "mooooooooo?" It's very funny.) Different cries for food and conversation. Then there is Boo--she is very fat, and she makes a lot of grunty noises and growls like a dog. If we pick her up when she is not in the mood, she grunts in disgust, like a human trying to get out of an uncomfortable position. Then she stiff-arms you and stares directly at you round-eyed until you put her down!! Once my husband took her to the vet w/o a carrier, in the car (he did not know me yet, I wouldn't have let him!) and after the vet he stopped at a drive-up for fast food and this little tuxedo glared at the server and made this Labrador -sized, loud growl! > When Nosey and Scamper went to the Rainbow Bridge (Nosey about 3 years > ago, and Scamp this spring), I went to the shelter and found Ming- a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Katrina How beautiful. Ming looks like a Snowshoe (a mixture of Siamese and American shorthair). MaryL >> When Nosey and Scamper went to the Rainbow Bridge (Nosey about 3 years >> ago, and Scamp this spring), I went to the shelter and found Ming- a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > How beautiful. Ming looks like a Snowshoe (a mixture of Siamese and > American shorthair). Isn't he a sweetie? it was those white paws that got me (well, and the blue eyes). He's got the markings of a Birman, but he's a shorthair. When he and Buttercup wrassle in the hallway, all you can see is a blur of brown legs- the fact that Ming has those white paws allows us to see whose are whose... Katrina Katrina <k_worley@yahoo.net> wrote in news:2004111317423316807% kworley@yahoonet: > http://homepage.mac.com/kworley/photos/PhotoAlbum22.html What cuties! --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead > Katrina <k_worley@yahoo.net> wrote in news:2004111317423316807% > kworley@yahoonet: > >> http://homepage.mac.com/kworley/photos/PhotoAlbum22.html > > What cuties! Thank you... They're very sweet kitties. I'm really lucky that Ming adopted Buttercup as soon as we got her and taught her everything she needs to know about being a cat. At 4-5 weeks she was really too young to be separated from her mother, but mom was a feral and was getting ready to move the litter- the workers at the place who found the litter decided that they'd better grab the kittens before that happened or them might not get a second chance. All of the kittens (6 of them) were adopted and are doing fine. Luckily they were old enough to eat canned kitten food and drink kitten formula out of a bowl. Katrina "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> wrote in news:0xtld.2894$iI2.111163 @twister.southeast.rr.com: > I really, really want a cat with Siamese coloring and looks. My family had a meezer when I was growing up, and she was a very dear girl. She would always come find me whenever I cried and she would try to comfort me. And she didn't like anyone outside the family. My Nickleby was a tuxedo cat, but he was half meezer -- his mother was Siamese, very beautiful. I felt that he had the meezer temperament (although he wasn't much of a talker). There are meezer rescue organizations like this one: http://www.siameserescue.org/ I considered rescuing one from this place but then I found Rosalie. --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead > My family had a meezer when I was growing up, and she was a very dear girl. > She would always come find me whenever I cried and she would try to comfort > me. And she didn't like anyone outside the family. I like the term "meezer," very cute! > My Nickleby was a tuxedo cat, but he was half meezer -- his mother was > Siamese, very beautiful. I felt that he had the meezer temperament [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I considered rescuing one from this place but then I found Rosalie. OMG!!!! I only got to page 2 and I have to stop. I looked under the Virginia link and Chacha, Gweneth, and Ullysses are all irresistable! I want one NOW! Poor Gweneth has a docked tail, I cannot imagine how that would have happened. > I did go through having the Siamese cats as a young adult and just loved > them so and gave them the best of care. They lived to 11 and 7 and 3 and > then I had the heartbreak of their losses and at that point I decided to get > black alley cats because I had seen a beautiful sleek black cat running > across a lawn one day while driving. The black cats have well outlived the > Siamese probably because of no inbreeding Here's a delightful quote from Roger Tabor - an avid cat lover and biologist that hits the nail smack on the head: "Moggies, as British cat lovers call non-purebred cats, are good, gutsy animals that have the best possible pedigree, going back unhindered through the mists of time. Because of their near-random mating, they have enjoyed the best possible breeding program for countless generations. Their survival and subsequent breeding derived from natural selection, favoring functioning characteristics. It is an unbeatable combination for healthy animals, producing a natural perfection of design and function." "A natural perfection of design and function." - that about sums it up for me! I gotta laugh when breeders say they're inbreeding to "improve" and "preserve" the breed. While they're inbreeding to fix a certain trait they're also passing on the same set of genes for the immune system from both parents. After several successive generations the kittens become genetically very similar with less vigorous immune systems. Since all the cats are so genetically similar, if one gets sick, they all get sick. That's why we hear of "epidemics" of certain diseases in catteries. Instead of preserving the breeds, their paving the road to extinction. As the gene pool contracts, so does immunity. In a few more years, the brachycephalic breeds with the most extreme conformations (e.g., Persian and Himalayan) won't even be able to breathe. Phil >I gotta laugh when breeders say they're inbreeding to "improve" and >"preserve" the breed. While they're inbreeding to fix a certain trait [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >cats are so genetically similar, if one gets sick, they all get sick. >That's why we hear of "epidemics" of certain diseases in catteries. I've probably told this story before, but Frank was originally from a kitten mill. He would have been adopted easily, but I *always* wanted a Siamese, and I took him, rationalizing that all I ever had were emaciated strays and dumped cats, and I *deserved* this beautiful kitten that I wanted so bad. I still have him seven years later. He's still beautiful, but he is dumb as a wooden duck and is susceptible to URI's and eye infections. My moggie cats just beat him hands-down for intelligence and hardiness. He's likely very inbred, so that's not saying that *all* purebreds are like him. Sherry > I've probably told this story before, but Frank was originally from a kitten > mill. He would have been adopted easily, but I *always* wanted a Siamese, and I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > He's likely very inbred, so that's not saying that *all* purebreds are like > him. Two things: 1. On behalf of wooden ducks everywhere, I protest. 2. Stump-stupid cats can be Buckets of Fun, can't they? :') >Two things: > >1. On behalf of wooden ducks everywhere, I protest. >2. Stump-stupid cats can be Buckets of Fun, can't they? :') Oh, buckets. He's hiding under the dining room tablecloth as I write. He's mad because I shooed him off the counter. I like to go in there and say "Wheeerreee's FRANK?" and watch the big lump under the tablecloth wiggle just a little bit. He honestly thinks I don't know where he is. Sherry >>Two things: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Sherry Have I ever showed you a pic of Frank? Here's a couple. He has a problem with his tongue. I think it's too long. This is how he sleeps. http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank3.jpg Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw out..." http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank3.jpg Sherry >Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw >out..." >http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank3.jpg > >Sherry Woops, wrong addy. Here's the hokey-pokey picture. http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank1.jpg Sherry > >Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw >>out..." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry That's hilarious. I love it! MaryL > Woops, wrong addy. Here's the hokey-pokey picture. > http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank1.jpg Ahh, I see! He really is pretty. And he really does have a problem with that tongue. <G> Maybe he is like Gnarly. I used to tell her, "you are SUCH A PRETTY GIRL" then under my breath "anditsagoodthingisn'titcuzyouain'tbreakinganyKittyIQrecords." I want a cat like this. Wooden-duck stupid is optional, but those eyes, that fur! Gorgeous. I hope you have him a long, long time. >> Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw >> out..." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry He's sooooo pretty. When you are that pretty you don't have to be smart. sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) wrote in news:20041113214023.06731.00000399 @mb-m24.aol.com: >>Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw >>out..." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry Oh, I love when they stretch out like that in front of you. He's a cute one! --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead << Woops, wrong addy. Here's the hokey-pokey picture. http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank1.jpg Sherry >> He's darling! Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) "Sherry " <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote> Have I ever showed you a pic of Frank? Here's a couple. > He has a problem with his tongue. I think it's too long. This is how he sleeps. > http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank3.jpg Ooo! This is exactly what I want my next cat to look like. Except maybe not with a problem tongue. I imagine you have considered the possibility that Frank's tongue is fine but he just has not mastered keeping it in his mouth? I understand there are some members of the British Royal Family who have that problem too. Frank is much, much prettier. And I bet he is soft. Is he vocal? > Here's Frank again. He loves doing the Hokey-Pokey. "Put your right paw out..." > http://members.aol.com/sriddles/frank3.jpg > > Sherry Hey, that looks an awful lot like the first one. Subtle dancer, ain't he? ;) >Frank is much, much prettier. And I bet he >is soft. Is he vocal? His fur is really soft and fine, like angora. It's weird, all the other cats seized were regular Apple-head Siamese. He was the only one with long hair. I found out later that there was a few longhairs in some of the litters, and they were selling them as "Balinese." He's not as vocal as the old Siamese we used to have, unless he wants something. Sherry > >Frank is much, much prettier. And I bet he > >is soft. Is he vocal? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > found out later that there was a few longhairs in some of the litters, and they > were selling them as "Balinese." He may well be Balinese. The kitten mill probably got hold of some Siamese variants that were being sold as pets... > He's not as vocal as the old Siamese we used > to have, unless he wants something. Most of my Bali's aren't as vocal as the Meezers, even though they are related to them... maybe the "fluff" acts as a sound absorber? The Bali's seem to be pretty laid back compared to pure Meezers, too, except for my little Twinkle who seems to be a Siamese prima donna in a fur coat! Cheers... Catherine > >I gotta laugh when breeders say they're inbreeding to "improve" and > >"preserve" the breed. While they're inbreeding to fix a certain trait [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > took him, rationalizing that all I ever had were emaciated strays and dumped > cats, and I *deserved* this beautiful kitten that I wanted so bad. Look at this knockout: http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Suggie.jpg I adopted her after she was returned twice for behavioral problems - biting and extremely defensive. Her original owners had her spayed (after she just had a litter) and declawed at the same time... I don't know which was the bigger idiot; her owners or the matchbook vet. > I still have him seven years later. He's still beautiful, but he is dumb as a > wooden duck Naa, he's not dumb. He probably just doesn't give a sh.t! LOL! I thought Jade o' mine was a little slow until I realized she would do what I wanted if what I wanted was what she wanted... IOW, she does what I want if she feels like it... not because she doesn't understand. LOL! and is susceptible to URI's and eye infections. My moggie cats just > beat him hands-down for intelligence and hardiness. > He's likely very inbred, so that's not saying that *all* purebreds are like > him. I think ferals are definitely smarter than domestic cats and certainly purebreds. Titi was feral and she's definitely the smartest in my harem - but my other ladies are far from stupid. I wonder if stupidity is inheritable. I'd bet CP's parents would know. LOL! Phil >Look at this knockout: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Phil Oh my. What a beauty. Is that a dark spot on top of her head, or is that in the photo? I'm asking because I had a longhaired cat as a child, pure white, except for a "smudge" in the same spot. She really has a sweet and gentle look about her...what's her demeanor like now after she's been with you? Sherry > >Look at this knockout: > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > Oh my. What a beauty. She acts like she knows it! Is that a dark spot on top of her head, or is that in the > photo? I'm asking because I had a longhaired cat as a child, pure white, except > for a "smudge" in the same spot. Its either a shadow or dirt... She doesn't have a mark on her coat. I can't get a perfect picture of her. Every time I brush her and her coat looks really nice, she immediately rolls around on her thistle mat to mess it up. She's just like women who have their hair styled to look unkempt! LOL! She really has a sweet and gentle look about > her...what's her demeanor like now after she's been with you? It took about a year for her to completely trust me and feel completely safe in the house. I think she was abused or severely punished (same thing). Now, she's a smoocher - but only when *she* wants. She still gives me little nibbles when she's excited from petting, but never hurts or breaks the skin. Actually, I kinda like it. Its not over stimulation because when I stop, she head bunts my hand until I start petting her again. I think that may be part of the reason she was surrendered. She *loves* to play, but she'll stop playing instantly the second she sees someone watching her. Either she feels playing is "undignified" or "unladylike" and doesn't want to be seen playing, or her former owners yelled or punished her when she played. She goes wild over the laser light and chases it all over the place as long as she doesn't see whose holding the pen. The instant she does, she stops and just looks at me. I've never seen a cat do that before. She sure is a different cat than the "unadoptable" she was labelled. Phil > She goes wild over the laser light and chases it all over the place as long > as she doesn't see whose holding the pen. The instant she does, she stops > and just looks at me. I've never seen a cat do that before. Hodge always tries to see where the light is coming from. If he does, he loses some interest in chasing it. "I'm not that stupid," he must be thinking. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ > Oh my. What a beauty. Do you remember little Jade 'o mine from 5 years ago? http://www.maxshouse.com/Main_Photos+Graphics/JADE-Main.jpg You should see her now! http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Jade-11-16-4-4-ed-511k.jpg I have pretty good taste in women, don't I? ;-> Phil (...) > I think ferals are definitely smarter than domestic cats and certainly > purebreds. For sure - there's no real advantage for a cat, being intelligent in a domestic environment. Indeed domestication in itself will lead to a loss of intelligence, or at least some aspects of same. Also poorly-enriched environments. Mind you, all depends what is meant by 'intelligence'. Steve. > > I did go through having the Siamese cats as a young adult and just loved > > them so and gave them the best of care. They lived to 11 and 7 and 3 and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Phil I have seen pictures of Persian cats from cat shows back about 60 years or so ago (not exactly sure) before they started to breed them to have the smushed-in faces and it's astounding how big a change they have made in the appearance of a large percentage of the breed in such a short space of time. The cat in the picture I saw looked like a slightly stumpy long-haired cat with a jaw that was a little squarish but otherwise its face was pretty unremarkable. The face of the cat from 60 years ago looked nothing like the ones of the Persian's I've seen in person at cat shows and in people's homes. > > > I did go through having the Siamese cats as a young adult and just loved > > > them so and gave them the best of care. They lived to 11 and 7 and 3 and [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > from 60 years ago looked nothing like the ones of the Persian's I've > seen in person at cat shows and in people's homes. Can you imagine what those breeds will look in another 60 years? providing, of course they're not extinct. They probably won't even look like cats - they hardly look like cats now - although the tail does give them away. Oops, Manx breeders took care of that feature, too. Nature's recipe has stood the test of time for millions of years - The breeders' recipe can't even make a 100 years without actually creating genetic defects that never occurred naturally in nature - e.g., brachycephalic airway syndrome. Kittens born with certain genetic defects never make it to the auction block and are quietly disposed of so that the cattery doesn't get a reputation for producing genetically defective cats. Kittens that "don't meet breed standards" (pretentious and arrogant classification) are classified as "pet quality"... as if its an inferior "product". There was book written about 60 years ago about selective breeding for perfection - but I can't understand it because it was written in German... Phil (...) > they hardly look like cats now - although the tail does give them away. > Oops, Manx breeders took care of that feature, too. The Isle of Man took care of that feature (though breeders certainly perpetuated it). (...) > for producing genetically defective cats. Kittens that "don't meet breed > standards" (pretentious and arrogant classification) It's a - ideally objective - definition. The value judgement has been added by you. (...) > There was book written about 60 years ago about selective breeding for > perfection - but I can't understand it because it was written in German... Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? Steve. >Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have >selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? Now there's a good point I haven't seen come up before. Makes me wonder too: is it okay to selectively breed animals to labor for us? Is it okay for Seeing-Eye to selectively breed dogs? >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Seeing-Eye >to selectively breed dogs? This may be over-simplistic, but it seems like totally different purposes... I am just assuming that Seeing-eye dogs are "selectively-bred" for intelligence, non-aggressiveness, etc. and animals for food slaughter bred to maximize quality and quanitity of the meat for processing. Purebred cats seem to be bred for whatever trend the judges are preferring to maximize show qualities. Extreme concave faces, lynx tips, etc. don't seem to have any purpose at all otherwise, certainly no benefit to either the cat or "society." Just rosettes for the breeder and a higher price fetched for kittens. Or at least I've never heard of selective breeding in cats to create a more robust, healthy cat, with cosmetic features incidental. It seems that appearances are the priority. Sherry > >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have > >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > non-aggressiveness, etc. and animals for food slaughter bred to maximize > quality and quanitity of the meat for processing. Purebred cats seem to be > bred for whatever trend the judges are preferring to maximize show qualities. > Extreme concave faces, lynx tips, etc. don't seem to have any purpose at all > otherwise, certainly no benefit to either the cat or "society." With some traits being potentially harmful or lethal for the cats. Phil Just rosettes > for the breeder and a higher price fetched for kittens. > Or at least I've never heard of selective breeding in cats to create a more > robust, healthy cat, with cosmetic features incidental. It seems that > appearances are the priority. > Sherry >> >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have >> >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >With some traits being potentially harmful or lethal for the cats. So is it okay to breed turkeys so top-heavy they can't ever stand up, because that benefits "society" in terms of lots more white meat on the plate? >So is it okay to breed turkeys so top-heavy they can't ever stand up, because >that benefits "society" in terms of lots more white meat on the plate? Of course not. It's just as wrong as breeding poor little runny-eyed Persians. It's screwing the poor animals up, in both cases. Sherry > >> >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have > >> >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > So is it okay to breed turkeys so top-heavy they can't ever stand up, because > that benefits "society" in terms of lots more white meat on the plate? ....because that benefits *breeders* in terms of more money per turkey. >> >> >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have >> >> >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >....because that benefits *breeders* in terms of more money per turkey. Sure, it's completely the fault of the greedy turkey farmers and is not in all influenced by consumer demand--even though the majority of consumers are not willing to pay a premium price to buy a heritage breed of turkey. Actually that is a good argument to support and commend hobby breeders and heritage breeders--those who are trying to preserve the historic breeds of domestic animals that are in danger of disappearing due to competition from factory farming. > >> >> >>Do you feel as strongly about non-pets, I wonder. Or is it OK to have > >> >> >>selectively-bred animals if they're just for eatin'...? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > Sure, it's completely the fault of the greedy turkey farmers Yup. Now you're catching on. and is not in all > influenced by consumer demand Consumer demand for bigger turkeys began when the breeders taught the public they could produce bigger turkeys. >and is not in all >> influenced by consumer demand > >Consumer demand for bigger turkeys began when the breeders taught the public >they could produce bigger turkeys. So, serious question here. It seems like you oppose all animal breeding wholesale. Do you then think we should go vegan, or go back to hunting as a method of getting meat? Either way, how does that mesh with the keeping of pet carnivores? Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > >and is not in all > >> influenced by consumer demand [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > animal breeding wholesale. Do you then think we should go vegan, or > go back to hunting as a method of getting meat? Wrong on all counts. Either way, how does that mesh with the keeping of pet carnivores? Either way, how does > that mesh with the keeping of pet carnivores? Ask Yngver, she brought up turkeys - I was talking about cats. > Do you then think we should go vegan, I'm not Phil but wanted to answer this -- I am a vegan. Either way, how does > that mesh with the keeping of pet carnivores? Good question. I love animals and have a strong need for them in my life. I am disgusted by their food but feel that meat is a necessity for dogs and cats -- if they were in the wild they would be hunting and eating what they caught. And they don't have the ability that humans have to make objective choices about what to eat. There are vegetarian diets for companion animals but I have been hesitant about trying them, especially for cats. If the whole world (of humans) went vegan tomorrow, I'm not sure what we'd do about providing meat to companion animals -- maybe more attention would be paid to formulating an excellent vegetarian diet for felines and canines. Anyway, interesting topic -- I think loving animals and becoming vegetarian frequently go hand in hand, and I'm sure a lot of vegetarians have the uneasy relationship with pet food that I do -- I'm interested in what others have to say. --Catherine & Rosalie the carnivorous calicohead >Anyway, interesting topic -- I think loving animals and becoming >vegetarian frequently go hand in hand, and I'm sure a lot of vegetarians >have the uneasy relationship with pet food that I do -- I'm interested in >what others have to say. I agree with you. I'm not a true vegetarian because I do eat seafood once in awhile, I just don't eat meat. My sister, however, is vegan and she had the same concern--she considered trying to feed her cats a vegetarian diet but in researching it learned that cats are obligate carnivores and need meat. She was not willing to sacrifice her cats' health to her own distaste for consuming meat, and I agree with that. I think, as with many issues of this kind, you do what you realistically can do. >> Do you then think we should go vegan, > >I'm not Phil but wanted to answer this -- I am a vegan. I'm not. :) Tell you what, I won't hold your being vegan against me if you don't hold my onmivorousnous against me. Deal? :) > Either way, how does >> that mesh with the keeping of pet carnivores? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >There are vegetarian diets for companion animals but I have been hesitant >about trying them, especially for cats. And you absolutely should be. Unlike dogs, cats are *obligate carnivores*. They do not digest or utilise plant matter well. They are designed to eat only meat -- this is why they have such high protein and fat requirements. They are also unable to create important amino acids and other important compounds (like taurine) from the food they eat. They *must* get these things from the meat they eat. My dream cat food (which will probably never be produced) is ground whole mouse and/or ground whole small bird. No vegetables, no fillers, no grain, just the meat, bones, fat, and viscera they are designed to use perfectly. >If the whole world (of humans) went vegan tomorrow, I'm not sure what >we'd do about providing meat to companion animals -- maybe more attention >would be paid to formulating an excellent vegetarian diet for felines and >canines. Sadly, such is impossible for cats. Cats are predators and obligate carnivores, and to try and turn them into anything else is profoundly immoral. We need to accept them for the perfectly designed killers they are. >Anyway, interesting topic -- I think loving animals and becoming >vegetarian frequently go hand in hand, and I'm sure a lot of vegetarians >have the uneasy relationship with pet food that I do -- I'm interested in >what others have to say. I would also submit that one does not need to be vegetarian or vegan to have a profound love for animals. :) Have you thought about giving any one of the numerous herbivore pets a try? I used to have a spayed house rabbit (French Lop, around 20 pounds) who was litter-trained and had the run of the house. I loved her dearly and she was a marvelous, affectionate pet. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > My dream cat food (which will probably never be produced) is > ground whole mouse and/or ground whole small bird. No vegetables, no > fillers, no grain, just the meat, bones, fat, and viscera they are > designed to use perfectly. DIY? *EG* You'd need a mighty sturdy blender... Signature-- ~kaeli~ Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > I would also submit that one does not need to be vegetarian or > vegan to have a profound love for animals. :) No, but vegetarianism is the next logical step after developing a profound love for animals -- in general, one doesn't kill what one loves. In my own case, I want very much not to have an adversarial relationship with animals, thus I have tried to be more peaceful toward them. Thus I do not eat them. But I have my enormous honking blind spot about pet food. :) Have you thought about > giving any one of the numerous herbivore pets a try? I used to have a > spayed house rabbit (French Lop, around 20 pounds) who was > litter-trained and had the run of the house. I loved her dearly and > she was a marvelous, affectionate pet. I have thought about rabbits -- I have known really nice rabbits who loved having their ears scritched. Have you known any to be lap-rabbits? I would worry about their crazy chewing tendencies, though, if they had run of the house. I really love cats and have had them almost my entire life, and I love dogs too (although Zoe is the first one I've had as an adult). I would find it hard to live life without them! --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead > No, but vegetarianism is the next logical step after developing a > profound love for animals -- I developed a profound love for animals over 50 years ago that's still going strong, and I don't have the slightest desire or guilt to become a vegetarian. I think one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Your "next step" seems to me to be off the deep end rather than logical. > in general, one doesn't kill what one loves. Your statement implies that anyone who eats meat doesn't love animals, or they are hypocrites. Remember this: Without a diet containing meat in human evolution you would not have the intelligence to make such an absurd statement. In fact you might have been still swinging in trees and have been *food* for the very animals you love so dearly! I respect vegetarianism for religious beliefs, but I think vegetarianism for the "love of animals" --- when eating meat was essential in human evolution - is a silly cult based on misguided guilt. If I offended you -- I offended you. You offended me - and everyone else who has pets and eats meat.. > > No, but vegetarianism is the next logical step after developing a > > profound love for animals -- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vegetarian. I think one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Your > "next step" seems to me to be off the deep end rather than logical. I think there is a seeming paradox -- hunters (represented by the Greek goddess Artemis and the Roman goddess Diana) are often animal and nature lovers, and most hunting peoples (like Plains Native Americans) show tremendous respect for animals -- just as agricultural cultures treated the land with reverence. I remember a prayer that went along the lines of thanking my brother deer for giving his life. Our problem is that we treat our food animals as commodities and objects and no longer revere them. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ >> > No, but vegetarianism is the next logical step after developing a >> > profound love for animals -- [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Our problem is that we treat our food animals as commodities and objects > and no longer revere them. My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for market, but he also loved them. This may seem like a paradox to some people, but he was far ahead of his times (he died in 1954) in some ways. For example, he always planted extra rows of corn. He said some was for the family and some was for the birds. Moreover, he did not resent what the birds took -- he said they caught so many insects that they were actually contributing to the family. Likewise, he attached a bat house to the side of their house. He also kept draft horses even after he had tractors. When he was not able to plow anymore because of his own age, he insisted on finding a family who would give the horses good care and he *gave* the horses to them rather than selling them. He said the horses had given him many good years, and now it was his turn to give them a good retirement. (He and my grandmother were spending their winters in Florida by that time, so he was not home all year to care for the animals.) I can still see him sitting on a stool, milking the cows -- and squirting some toward cats that would sit in a row behind him with their mouths open (literally!), waiting for the milk that they knew would be coming their way. My grandmother was much the same way. She raised a variety of chickens for their productivity (primarily for eggs, but they also ate chicken), yet she had a genuine, deep affection for them. On the other hand, I am sure that neither of my grandparents would have been able to quite understand my passion for my cats or my paranoia in wanting them to always be protected. To them, cats were outdoor animals ("barn cats") -- well-cared-for, recipients of affection, but definitly not the indoor-only family members that my cats have become. MaryL >My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for market, >but he also loved them. This may seem like a paradox to some people, but he [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >MaryL That sounds just like my grandparents. They were conservationists, and environmentalists also, long before those terms became buzzwords. They had a deep respect for the land and its resources, because their lives depended on them taking care of it. Sherry > My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for market, > but he also loved them. <snipped> I can still see him sitting on a stool, milking > the cows -- and squirting some toward cats that would sit in a row behind > him with their mouths open (literally!), waiting for the milk that they knew > would be coming their way. My father has talked of doing the same thing (although would've been in the 1920's - early 30's, for him). My grandmother was much the same way. She > raised a variety of chickens for their productivity (primarily for eggs, but > they also ate chicken), yet she had a genuine, deep affection for them. On [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > MaryL I think this was the norm for the time. If your grandparents had somehow continued to live - for another 30 years, say - then their attitudes may've slowly changed over to seeing cats (well, at least a percentage of them) as house cats - true pets, Vs. cared-for barn cats. My parents have had pet cats for perhaps 25 years now, & my father's said how it would've seemed to be a rather absurd idea when he was young. Cathy >> My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for > market, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Cathy You may be right. We lived in a rural area (but my own mother and father were not farmers). At that time, my mother still thought of cats and dogs as outdoor-only. In fact, she once said (after we were adults) that she couldn't understand how all three of her children now thought that cats should be indoors. At the same time, any animals we had as pets would be rushed to the veterinarian if anything were wrong, and that was not the norm for that area for "pets" at that time. Years later, when my mother came to live with me and I was her caretaker, I would find her reaching down to make friends with my cats. One of my favorite pictues of my mother is one I snapped of her, sound asleep with my cat sleeping by her side and my mother's arm draped over my cat. So, my mother did indeed grow to accept that which she would have rejected years earlier (just as you suggested). MaryL > You may be right. We lived in a rural area (but my own mother and father > were not farmers). At that time, my mother still thought of cats and dogs [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > MaryL When I was growing up, my mother insisted all pets would be outdoors. I used to sneak my cat in through my bedroom window, but one day she spilled the beans by asking to come in when my mother was in my room and I was away at school. When I got home, my mother asked me if I had been letting the cat in through the bedroom window. Of course, I had to confess and then promise not to do it any more. Now that I'm an adult and responsible for a house, I can see my mother's point. Flea control was pretty much non-existent then, and litter pans must have been a real problem before clumping litter. Now we have choices of much better products. My grandmother, however, was much less concerned about housekeeping than my mother was, and even let my uncle's goat come inside and go upstairs to wake him. No doubt, this contributed to my mother's attitude toward animals in the house. It is obvious that your mother cared for your pets because they got good vet care. My mother also did the same, including having both the dog and cat spayed, which I thought was terrible because I loved puppies and kittens so much. Now I know she was actually ahead of her time. When I raised our kids, our pets were family members, and as such, the human home was also their home. I also found that my children did not have the nightmares and sleeping problems I had as a child. I'm sure having a pet snuggled up them at night had a lot to do with it. I'm sure you treasure that photo of your mother with the cat. It is such a blessing that your mother was able to experience the special closeness of a cat in her bed, probably at the time she needed it the most. Annie > My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for market, > but he also loved them. This may seem like a paradox to some people, but he [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > cats") -- well-cared-for, recipients of affection, but definitly not the > indoor-only family members that my cats have become. Your grandfather sounds really special, and obviously passed on a lot of it to you. I have been trying to think of how to articulate my thoughts on the vegetarianism topic, but have not really had much luck. A try: prey and predators are in the natural order of things. Animals eating other animals is as inevitable as death. Hunters point out that when human "controls" for animals like deer are removed the overpopulation that happens causes more problems than regulated hunting. Would the animal activists/vegetarians have hawks and owls stop hunting mice and try to make them eat grain instead? Of course not. Humans are omnivores, but like many creatures they need the complete proteins found most readily in muscle meats. Combining plant matter in such a way that one gets enough complete proteins (with all amino acids present, among other things) can be tricky. Most people are way too lazy to do this, and so many well-meaning vegans develop deficiencies and associated health problems. I love animals, but I crave muscle meats daily. I do care about how animals raised for food are treated and how they are slaughtered, but I still want to eat them. I think prey and predators are part of the natural order of things--not the prettiest part, but still a vital part. >> My grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle and other animals for > market, >> but he also loved them. This may seem like a paradox to some people, but > he >> was far ahead of his times (he died in 1954) in some ways. the >> indoor-only family members that my cats have become. > Your grandfather sounds really special, and obviously passed on a lot of > it to you. Thanks. > I have been trying to think of how to articulate my thoughts on the > vegetarianism topic, but have not really had much luck. A try: prey and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the natural order of things--not the prettiest part, but still a vital > part. This is pretty much how I feel, although (as you said) it is hard to put into words. I will not eat certain types of meat if I have knowledge of the animals being maintained under poor conditions. For example, I started by not eating white/light veal (which I love) because of the really terrible circumstances in which these calves live. Later, I stopped eating veal altogether because I had concerns that some of the other calves might have raised in the same circumstances. However, I eat beef, lamb, pork, and poultry (but not fish, because I am allergic). I also avoid small game birds. MaryL > I will not eat certain types of meat if I have knowledge of the > animals being maintained under poor conditions. I seek out free-range and organic. It's more expensive, but then it means I eat less, anyway. I LOVE organic whole milk, by the way. It tastes like milk. I'd forgotten what milk tastes like. Which is scary. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ >> I will not eat certain types of meat if I have knowledge of the >> animals being maintained under poor conditions. > >I seek out free-range and organic. It's more expensive, but then it >means I eat less, anyway. I LOVE organic whole milk, by the way. It >tastes like milk. I'd forgotten what milk tastes like. Which is scary. also, kosher meat comes from animals both kept and slaughtered humanely. it's twice as expensive is regular meat, though. :( -L >> No, but vegetarianism is the next logical step after developing a >> profound love for animals -- [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > If I offended you -- I offended you. You offended me - and everyone > else who has pets and eats meat.. Gee, you seem a little defensive. --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead > My dream cat food (which will probably never be produced) is > ground whole mouse and/or ground whole small bird. No > vegetables, no fillers, no grain, just the meat, bones, fat, and > viscera they are designed to use perfectly. Interesting! Would the mouse be cooked or raw? SignatureCheryl > > Do you then think we should go vegan, > > I'm not Phil but wanted to answer this -- I am a vegan. With all due respect to vegans, humans, as we are today, would not have come into existence without meat in the diet. Adding meat to the diet was essential in the evolution and development of our (larger) brain. Otherwise, we would still be feeding cats - but only as their prey! I hope for your sake there's no truth in the theory of devolution. Otherwise, pack your loin cloth and get ready for the return trip! Phil (...) > With all due respect to vegans, humans, as we are today, would not have come > into existence without meat in the diet. Adding meat to the diet was > essential in the evolution and development of our (larger) brain. Well, arguments have been made that meat was important in fostering evolution (see Milton 2003; J Nutr 133: 3886S-3892S, for a review). Meat was (is) a good food source because it is replete with Much Good Stuff. However it was not meat per se that arguably drove evolution, but what the choice of meat as a food did to humans socially. For example, meat eating required co-operation within social groups and the development of tactics for hunting. So meat in the diet led to increased social behaviour combined with high levels of mobility. These are certainly evolutionary steps on the way to our current state. When meat was obtained, it also lessened the need to spend vast amounts of time foraging for good quality plant foods. But, today it is irrelevant whether meat was once important in the human's diet. It is perfectly straightforward to have a healthy vegetarian diet (more difficult in the case of veganism). After all, we no longer need to spend most of the day browsing forage. It's all in tins, today. Further, there's no selection whatsoever based on diet today. Vegans get to have sex too, even if it may only be with trees or bearded people (men and women) in sandals. Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > However it was not meat per se that arguably drove evolution, but what > the choice of meat as a food did to humans socially. Naa, I think it was the higher nutrient content of meat that fueled the evolution and development of the brain. "Brain tissue is metabolically expensive, but there is no significant correlation between relative basal metabolic rate and relative brain size in humans and other encephalized mammals. ...No matter what is selecting for relatively large brains in humans and other primates, they cannot be achieved without ashift to a high-quality diet unless there is a rise in the metabolic rate. Therefore the incorporation of increasingly greater amounts of animal products into the diet was essential in the evolution of the large human brain." (Aiello, Leslie C. (1995) Expensive-tissue hypothesis: the brain and digestive system in human and primate evolution. Current Anthroplogy 36(2): pp. 199) > Further, there's no selection whatsoever based on diet today. Too soon to tell. Maybe in another few hundred thousand years all us omnivores will be walking around with neck braces while vegans will be walking on all fours wearing ear plugs. Vegans > get to have sex too, even if it may only be with trees or bearded > people (men and women) in sandals. There's a very, very funny Vietnamese poem about "mit" (Vietnamese Jackfruit) written by Ho Xuan Huong about 200 years ago. It was illegal to write about sex so she developed comical metaphors using fruits and vegetables to tell her stories. It loses in the translation - but vegans should still get a kick out it. They'll never look at vegetables the same way again. > Naa, I think it was the higher nutrient content of meat that fueled the > evolution and development of the brain. The (seemingly ongoing) question is, with the variety of foods available in the modern grocery store, can one get the same level of nutrients from a carefully-planned vegetarian or vegan diet as one can from an omnivorous diet? Just to once again butt in on a topic. Signaturemonique > > Naa, I think it was the higher nutrient content of meat that fueled the > > evolution and development of the brain. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > from a carefully-planned vegetarian or vegan diet as one can from an > omnivorous diet? I was talking about the roll of meat in the evolution of the human brain. But to answer your question: on a gram to gram basis, no. Animal tissue is much more nutrient and caloric dense than most plant food. IOW, a person eating a strictly vegetable diet would generally need to eat about twice as much food than a person eating a diet comprised of mostly meat -- and still might not derive the same nutrient level. In the early stages of evolution, the farther man got from a plant diet, the higher he rose above the animal. > Just to once again butt in on a topic. You didn't butt in - there are no private conversations in newsgroups. Phil >> Naa, I think it was the higher nutrient content of meat that fueled the >> evolution and development of the brain. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Just to once again butt in on a topic. Monique, yes, it is possible to get adequate nutrition from a vegetarian and vegan diet -- and it is easier now than ever to become vegan without giving up, say, dining in restaurants. Human beings can choose how they eat and a vegetarian/vegan diet is environmentally responsible, compassionate, and healthy. And tastes great!! --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead > Monique, yes, it is possible to get adequate nutrition from a vegetarian and > vegan diet -- and it is easier now than ever to become vegan without giving [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > --Catherine & Rosalie the calicohead A vegetarian friend of mine hiked the Appalachian trail. (Not vegan.) She ate cheese during the colder months, but as it got hotter, the cheese got really nasty and slimy in her pack. So she moved on to beans, mixing them into just about everything she ate. I assume nuts were a big part of her diet, too. She would stare at her non-veggie friend digging into a can of tuna and just drool -- her body was desperately craving more protein. I know she considered going meat-eater just for the trail, but she managed to keep it together the whole way. It definitely affected her energy levels, though. And of course, some amount of fat is necessary for survival. Far less than we typically eat, but some. I suspect that, the more active you are, the harder it is to go vegan or vegetarian. Also, how do you deal with the farting? Whenever I make a big effort to eat a lot of veggies, it's embarrassing! Signaturemonique > Also, how do you deal with the farting? Whenever I make a big effort to eat a > lot of veggies, it's embarrassing! That's something to think about - vegetarians polluting the atmosphere with all that methane! LOL! > > Also, how do you deal with the farting? Whenever I make a big effort to > eat a > > lot of veggies, it's embarrassing! > > That's something to think about - vegetarians polluting the atmosphere with > all that methane! LOL! Thaaaat's right! They're |
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