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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2004Littermaid auto-tray: suitable for kittens?
Hello, I would be grateful if people could give me some advice. 1. I am shortly to adopt a couple of kittens and would like to allow them and me the luxury of a Littermaid ("self-cleaning" tray operated by an electric eye). However, maybe the Littermaid is too deep for a kitten to get in and out of ? Maybe I should leave this gadget until they are bigger. Has anybody used it successfully with kittens? 2. What kind of food/drink do kittens require? I would like to get them onto hard (biscuit) food only, as soon as possible. What's the earliest age for that? And do kittens have delicate first teeth which are later replaced by second teeth - or the same teeth all the way through? Thanks so much for all help. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kitten to get in and out of ? Maybe I should leave this gadget until > they are bigger. Has anybody used it successfully with kittens? I had one of these and hated it. They are more hassle than they are worth, and no, I don't think they are safe for kittens, who would probably try to play with it and might get caught in it. Scooping the box once or twice a day is just not a big deal. Changing the litter completely every two weeks or so is not either. It is only an ordeal if you let it go and get gross. > 2. What kind of food/drink do kittens require? I would like to get them > onto hard (biscuit) food only, as soon as possible. What's the earliest > age for that? And do kittens have delicate first teeth which are later > replaced by second teeth - or the same teeth all the way through? > > Thanks so much for all help. Assuming your kittens have been with their mother long enough to be weaned and to learn what they need to from her (such as grooming and covering up in the litter box) you can feed them any prepared kitten food. I do want to stress that dry food is not good for kittens or cats. They need quality canned food--moist and meaty, and not full of carbohydrates they do not really need. The thinking used to be that dry was better for them, but it is not. It tends to make them fat, as they keep trying to get satisfaction from it that they cannot get--because they want and need meat. Why are you thinking of feeding them dry only? > Changing the litter completely every two weeks or so is not > either. It is only an ordeal if you let it go and get gross. This is encouraging. My previous cat, in Kuwait, was a rescued stray with big digestive problems: his litter had to be changed every four or five days - a misery, AND expensive. > I do want to > stress that dry food is not good for kittens or cats. They [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > from it that they cannot get--because they want and need > meat. Thanks for the advice. Certainly my last cat got VERY fat on more dry than moist food. I hear that biscuits are good for their teeth. What do you think about that? If they DO need biscuits for their teeth, how would you organise their daily menu? (Wet in the morning, dry at night, etc?) I've heard that older cats don't need milk at all, that in fact it just softens their stools, and that water is better. What do you think? Thanks for saving me from lashing out a lot of money on an expensive Littermaid that could turn out to be little more than a gadget. > > Changing the litter completely every two weeks or so is not > > either. It is only an ordeal if you let it go and get gross. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > than moist food. I hear that biscuits are good for their teeth. What > do you think about that? I think it would be true... *if* cats chewed (as in mastication)... which they don't. Cats carnassial teeth are pointed (no fissured crowns) and operate like shears. When the cat closes her mouth, the upper and lower carnassial teeth slide across each other like two blades of a pair of scissors *cutting* the food into pieces small enough to swallow - cats don't grind down their food like dogs and humans. Also, the cat's jaw doesn't have the capacity for lateral motion - as in chewing. The lower jaw "hinge" (condyloid process) is shaped like a bar - like a door hinge - and only moves up and down. This design allows them to hold struggling prey but it also limits rotary and lateral grinding movements. A human's condyloid process is shaped like more like an egg - an oval - because we rarely need to hold and subdue struggling prey! (Well may be some people who are a little kinky do ). ;-> Here's what a cat's lower jaw and condyloid process looks like - you'll see what I mean: http://maxshouse.com/anatomy/Dentary/Mandible-right-medial_view.jpg Here's a better description of a cat's teeth: http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm Since cats don't chew, dry food nuggets would have to be large enough for the cat's teeth to sink all the way down to the gums - that's were all the problems start, and not shatter when she bites into them. There are only 2 or 3 dry cat foods that actually work to some extent - but the pros don't offset the cons. Your cats are young enough to become accustomed to having their teeth brushed . You can use a gauze sponge wrapped around your finger and dipped in warm saline - or a Q-tip dipped in warm saline to clean your cats' teeth. Here's how: http://maxshouse.com/tooth_brushing.htm Good luck, Phil. Phil, Thanks a million for the explanations - REALLY REALLY helpful ! I am very tempted to share your words with neighbours who think themselves highly knowledgeable about their cat and its needs and who got me onto the idea of giving dry food only - but they're very sure of themselves and I think they may be affronted. (No wonder their cat seems somewhat hostile to them whenever I see them all together!) I use and have used Littermaid with my brood, including two 5 month old kittens who were brothers. They particularly were fascinated with it, would sit by it for hours, and take turns urinating in it. One would use it; they would sit there and wait. As soon as the rake cleaned the litter, the other one would use it. They would sit and wait, watching the rake. The rake would clean it, then the first would go in. They would do this for an hour or tow at a time. They used it so much, they actually broke it after a couple of months. As to why we would want to use it: In our case it was the odor. We had and have 5 cats, with 6 litter boxes. For whatever reason, having the Littermaid available really reduced the odor in the house. One in particular (Looy) loves it, and a couple of the others use it when they are upstairs. Before we got another one after the first one broke, we always knew as soon as we came home if Looy had used the box. I waited a few years since they are so expensive, but in the USA you can get the smaller ones in places like Target, so it's not quite as bad as ordering it from their website. And yes, Looy was one of the kittens fascinated by it when he was 6 months old. We clean the regular litter boxes 3 times a day; we use the sifting litter liners so that's not too much of a problem. It takes about 10 minutes each time to do all of them. I don't use the flushable because I've had a problem with it, even in a city sewer system. One thing we do is put lots of PAM on the Littermaid tray after we wash it each week. Nothing sticks. We empty the collection box two or three times a week. It is expensive, but it makes our life more bearable. We'd probably be cleaning > I use and have used Littermaid with my brood, including two 5 month old > kittens who were brothers. They particularly were fascinated with it, > would sit by it for hours, and take turns urinating in it. How sweet! This never occurred to me! I can just imagine kittens thinking the thing, of course, a toy! > They used it so much, they > actually broke it after a couple of months. Oh, dear, as you say, they aren't cheap. > Before we got another one after the first one broke, we > always knew as soon as we came home if Looy had used the box. I think I need to investigate if there will be a MASSIVE difference in smell if I adopt female kittens. (The walls of my house are two feet thick - and made of rocks - so there's no possibility of inserting another door anywhere and constructing an isolated room beyond it. Making that one entrance porch bearable is the ONLY option.) > We clean the regular litter boxes 3 times a day; we use the sifting > litter liners so that's not too much of a problem. This is interesting. Never heard of these. Presumably they are like plastic nets? > One thing we do is put lots of PAM on the Littermaid tray after we wash > it each week. Nothing sticks. Please, can you tell me what "PAM" is? (Sorry, I'm writing from Wales - UK - and I suspect this is an American brand name?) Thanks so much for your ideas. A REAL help in preparing for the arrival of the kittens. (The walls of my house are two feet > thick - and made of rocks - Wow! Now I want to see photos of the house and the cats! > > Changing the litter completely every two weeks or so is not > > either. It is only an ordeal if you let it go and get gross. > > This is encouraging. My previous cat, in Kuwait, was a rescued stray > with big digestive problems: his litter had to be changed every four or > five days - a misery, AND expensive. I hated the cat box before scoopable. TidyCat multiple cat (or "antibacterial," they work the same) is pretty good and not too expensive. It is not highly scented either, so I can use it with my cat who has asthma with no ill effects. I have two boxes (the deep kind, open with no hood and no liners) that I scoop at night. About every two weeks I dump all of the litter and wash the boxes with hot water and just a little disinfectant. I do it in my shower just before I clean the shower. Keep little \ plastic grocery bags near the boxes so you can scoop the clumps in there, then tie them up and deposit in the trash. > > I do want to > > stress that dry food is not good for kittens or cats. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would you organise their daily menu? (Wet in the morning, dry at night, > etc?) I fed my old cat nothing but dry because I heard the same thing. But current thought is that the dry food does nothing for their teeth. As Phil points out, they don't really chew it. And--if you have the vet do a dental exam every now and then and a cleaning--or if you use the enzyme activated chicken flavored cat tooth paste on them every now and then, that's all you need. You will have kittens, so you could start them out getting used to brushing their teeth maybe once a week or so. Someone here turned me on to these: http://www.fuzzytummy.com/cet--cat-toothbrush-.htm They are the best, very small and easy to use. The cats love the chicken flavor, too. > I've heard that older cats don't need milk at all, that in fact it just > softens their stools, and that water is better. What do you think? I have heard never to give kitten cow's milk--it causes flatulence and runny stools. I can attest to this as I used to give it to one of my cats. They don't need it. Feed them a good canned food. Wellness mail-ordered or one of the premium brands at your local PetSmart or whatever pet supply stores you have nearby. > Thanks for saving me from lashing out a lot of money on an expensive > Littermaid that could turn out to be little more than a gadget. You're welcome! I am excited for you, getting kittens!! Keep us posted and maybe put some photos up on a Yahoo website or post some in alt.binaries.pictures.animals. > I hated the cat box before scoopable. TidyCat multiple cat > (or "antibacterial," they work the same) is pretty good and not too [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > plastic grocery bags near the boxes so you can scoop the > clumps in there, then tie them up and deposit in the trash. Thanks for really practical ideas here. Can I ask YOU too for ideas on how to keep the stench of urine down, given that I will HAVE to keep the litter tray in my large porch-room that is the ONLY entrance to my house. > use the enzyme activated chicken > flavored cat tooth paste on them every now and then, > that's all you need. You will have kittens, so you could > start them out getting used to brushing their teeth maybe > once a week or so. Someone here turned me on to these: Brilliant. I will try to track this down! Thanks. > I have heard never to give kitten cow's milk--it causes flatulence > and runny stools. I can attest to this as I used to give it to one of > my cats. They don't need it. Feed them a good canned food. So, this and a saucer of water then? (Sorry, if I seem insistent on giving them something to drink!) > You're welcome! I am excited for you, getting kittens!! Thanks! I'm excited too. Planning to adopt two kittens in mid-December when I have finished all the preparations for winter in the garden and can spend ALL my time with them inside, getting them acclimatised to the interior, before taking them for walks when Spring comes round in March. > Can I ask YOU too for ideas on how to keep the stench of urine down, > given that I will HAVE to keep the litter tray in my large porch-room > that is the ONLY entrance to my house. Aside from using a good scoopable like TidyCat Multple Cats, the best thing to do it scoop it frequently. With more than one cat using it, I would scoop it twice a day. That's all you need to do. (I imagine you could put a layer of baking soda in the very bottom when you change out the litter, but I am not sure it is necessary. I have to say, I never smell any urine smell. But then I have girl cats, if that makes a difference. You did say yours are boys?) > > use the enzyme activated chicken > > flavored cat tooth paste on them every now and then, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Brilliant. I will try to track this down! Thanks. You have a great opportunity with little baby cats. I would handle them gently a lot, touch their feet and tails, as some cats grow up to hate that, but not those who grow up with it. When they are big enough you can trim their claws yourself--just cut off the sharp tip, being careful not to cut below the "quick." Teeth- brushing could be done like a reward, given the chicken flavored toothpaste! I hope I get to raise a cat from a baby and keep it one day. I have always adopted adults for some reason. > > I have heard never to give kitten cow's milk--it causes flatulence > > and runny stools. I can attest to this as I used to give it to one of > > my cats. They don't need it. Feed them a good canned food. > > So, this and a saucer of water then? (Sorry, if I seem insistent on > giving them something to drink!) Oh, of course, they need a nice big fresh bowl of water every morning. My cats really love the filtered water that comes out of the front of the fridge. One of the reasons for the canned food is to make sure they get enough water, but every animal needs good fresh water daily. > > You're welcome! I am excited for you, getting kittens!! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > acclimatised to the interior, before taking them for walks when Spring > comes round in March. Neat! You can harness train them too! Look into the Alpine Scratcher, my cats adore it and don't go near the furniture since I got two: http://www.petcarecentral.com/cospetprodsc.html See the hole in the side? It has a dangling mousey they can bat at. It comes with a bag of catnip. You rub the catnip all over the corrugated cardboard insert and they go nuts! Also, you can get replacements for the inserts. Also, here are some crackly catnip toys my cats love: http://www.fatcatinc.com/html_site/catbrands.shtml They are fun for people too. I bought Hillary and Arnold and so now when we have play sessions my kitties wrestle with the politcoes! It is very funny when Cheeky attacks Hillary and her little purple spectator pumps stick up! Arnie is the Terminator on one side and the Governator on the other. :) Welcome to the group, you will be a great cat dad, I can tell. > I never smell any urine smell. But > then I have girl cats, if that makes a difference. Thanks for suggesting this possibility. It didn't occur to me that there might be a difference in the smelliness of the two types of urine - though, as we know, a tom's spray is vile! I am collecting together the addresses of cat sanctuaries, so I still have the possibility of adopting females, rather than males. > You have a great opportunity with little baby cats. > I would handle them gently a lot, touch their feet > and tails, as some cats grow up to hate that, but not > those who grow up with it. Good idea. Yes, with the two cats I had to leave in Kuwait ten years ago, I got one so used to being handled that he would delightedly lie upside down in my arms like a baby! The second kitten was so skittish that I "respected" that and never subjected her to lots of handling when young, and then, as you say, she HATED it when older. > Look into the Alpine Scratcher, > my cats adore it and don't go near the furniture since I got two: Thanks for this too. Yes, I am very concerned about what little claws could do with wonderful elaborate cloths collected abroad. > Welcome to the group, you will be a great cat dad, I can tell. VERY perceptive, you are! -> Hello, -> -> I would be grateful if people could give me some advice. -> -> 1. I am shortly to adopt a couple of kittens and would like to allow -> them and me the luxury of a Littermaid ("self-cleaning" tray operated by -> an electric eye). However, maybe the Littermaid is too deep for a -> kitten to get in and out of ? Maybe I should leave this gadget until -> they are bigger. Has anybody used it successfully with kittens? -> -> 2. What kind of food/drink do kittens require? I would like to get them -> onto hard (biscuit) food only, as soon as possible. What's the earliest -> age for that? And do kittens have delicate first teeth which are later -> replaced by second teeth - or the same teeth all the way through? -> -> Thanks so much for all help. I don't think a Littermaid would be any problem for a kitten. I would suggest you get a regular litter box with flushable litter. Get the good stuff. The cheap stuff has an extreme excess of dust. I have heard that there is now a flushable litter that is made of something besides clay -- I want to say corn cobs, but I'm not 100% sure. I'm going to try it if they ever sell it nearby. (I live in a small town.) Scoop your flushable litter litterbox every day.  Signature8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail) ~~~~~~ "I reserve the absolute right to be smarter today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson http://www.suzanne-eckhardt.com/ ***Revelation 22:12*** ICQ: 349878998 http://www.intergnat.com/malebashing/ > I would suggest you get a regular litter box with flushable > litter. Get the good stuff. The cheap stuff has an extreme > excess of dust. I have heard that there is now a flushable > litter that is made of something besides clay -- I want to say > corn cobs, but I'm not 100% sure. I'm going to try it if they > ever sell it nearby. (I live in a small town.) Unfortunately, I'm completely rural and therefore not connected to mains waste - got a septic tank a little lower down the hill. Bit wary of flushing solids other than human variety! BUT you have reminded me that a really good quality litter could take a lot of the misery out of scooping the poop. Thanks for your help. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kitten to get in and out of ? Maybe I should leave this gadget until > they are bigger. Has anybody used it successfully with kittens? I don't like LitterMaids, either, because I can't see the waste (not that I'm a great ca-ca affectionato) - unless I dump the bin and look - which kinda defeates the purpose of the damned machine. The only way you'd know if *one* of your cats had diarrhea is when you have to scrape it out from between the teeth of the rake. What's the big deal over scooping? It only takes a few seconds to scoop out a box. Waste products are early warning signs of illness. Scoop the poop! ;-> > 2. What kind of food/drink do kittens require? I would like to get them > onto hard (biscuit) food only, as soon as possible. Bad idea. Cats can't make precise and rapid changes in their voluntary water intake in response to their state of hydration - kittens are even more susceptible to dehydration. Food texture preferences are heavily influenced by early experiences. So, while your kittens are still young - get them off to a healthier start in life - feed them a variety of canned foods. Good luck. Phil > The only way you'd know > if *one* of your cats had diarrhea is when you have to scrape it out from > between the teeth of the rake. Hmmm. Not a nice job, I imagine, and you can't just rinse this big machine under the tap to get the guck out of the teeth. > What's the big deal over scooping? It only takes a few seconds to scoop out > a box. Waste products are early warning signs of illness. Scoop the poop! Last (gorgeous) cat I had often had diarhoea so scooping was a misery. Perhaps two healty cats would be simpler. Thanks for the advice. > while your kittens are still young - get them off to a healthier start in > life - feed them a variety of canned foods. Very good idea. I'll do that. Thanks so much for the help! > What's the big deal over scooping? Everyone loves labour-saving devices, no matter how silly they are. ;) Seriously, a friend of mine told me they'd gotten something like this, and my first thought was, "Why?" As you say, it takes next to nothing to scoop, and it gives you an idea of general health. (Hodge is very healthy. Mental, but healthy.) ;) Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/pages/hodge.html > > What's the big deal over scooping? > > Everyone loves labour-saving devices, no matter how silly they are. ;) LitterMaids aren't nearly as bad as those damned toilet "seats" for cats. I really hate those things! To my mind, toilet training a cat is *abuse* - and potentially deadly for male cats because you can't see if and how much they're urinating. A male cat with a urinary tract obstruction and can't urinate can die from acute renal failure. I think some of these manufacturers have teams of monkeys working around the clock thinking up these stupid ideas. > Seriously, a friend of mine told me they'd gotten something like this, > and my first thought was, "Why?" As you say, it takes next to nothing to > scoop, and it gives you an idea of general health. > > (Hodge is very healthy. Mental, but healthy.) ;) Naaa, he doesn't look mental! *This* is mental! http://maxshouse.com/album/Jade_climb_chim_1.jpg Phil > potentially deadly for male cats because you can't see if and how much > they're urinating. A male cat with a urinary tract obstruction and can't > urinate can die from acute renal failure. Hmmm. Good thought. Scooping helps you keep an eye on things. OK, so I stick with a litter-tray, but it HAS to go in the large porch that is the ONLY entrance to my house - through which EVERYBODY who visits HAS to come and which also gets very hot in summer. Other than changing ALL of the litter every few days, I wonder if you have any ideas on how to minimise the stink of the urine - even though I will be in there scooping twice a day. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks so much for all help. I'm not sure at what age you can start with the Littermaid, you can check the web site and ask there. I have two Mega models for three cats and they work reasonably well; not perfect but about 80-90%. Which means I can be away the whole day and the boxes stay reasonably clean. Nightly I scoop a little to make sure the litter is perfectly clean for the night. As far as choice of litter I mix the Littermaid litter with World's Best. Both are corn based and the mixture avoids the corn odor of the WB. The corn litter works better in the box because it's lighter and may be healthier for the cats. Adam Thanks Adam. > I have two Mega models for three cats and they work reasonably > well; not perfect but about 80-90%. Because of everybody's wonderful help in this group, my question has been refined. Because of the way my house is constructed I have no option but to have a litter tray or trays in the one and only entrance (room) to the house - which also happens to be adjacent to the kitchen and the downstairs bathroom. Human "traffic" is therefore high. Exposure to smell will be high. I guess I was hoping that the Littermaid might be smell-less. It seems that adopting cats, for me, will mean either changing the litter rather too frequently (expensive!) or allowing them free passage to the outdoors at all times (I live in the country with a massive garden). Neither option is good. Any ideas? > Thanks Adam. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or allowing them free passage to the outdoors at all times (I live in > the country with a massive garden). Neither option is good. Any ideas? The Littermaid does help with smell, because 10 minutes after use the waste goes into the receptacle which gets closed. Every couple of days I add some Arm and Hammer litter deoderizer to the waste receptacle. I have one Littermaid in the livingroom and another in bedroom hallway and as long as my Oreo does not pee on the carpet the smell is not too bad. Smells like home to me :). You can also try putting the box inside the privacy tent. ( I have one in a tent and one without and I prefer without so I can see what's going on.) Adam > The Littermaid does help with smell, because 10 minutes after use the waste goes into > the receptacle which gets closed. Every couple of days I add some Arm and Hammer > litter deoderizer to the waste receptacle. Thanks Adam. Well, all this help has helped me arrive at a good solution, though it will take quite a bit of work to implement it. With a 1-foot long masonry drill bit I can drill through and create a hole in the six-inch thick breeze block wall in my porch, and put a cat-flap in it that only exits into a dog-kennel on the path outside. The kennel can have grills in it, so that it will be aired, and it can have a sloping lift-open roof so that snow and rain will slide off but I can get my arms into it to clean inside and manage the litter-tray every day. The door of the kennel can be sealed to the hole in the wall so that slugs and damp don't creep in, and with the flap in place too, smell should be minimal - so should tracking. It's going to take quite a bit of work but it will be worth it in the long-run. The kittens will grow up as house-cats-only and the amazing variety of bird-life outside won't suffer. All I have to do now is check with the builder where those electric wires travel along the wall, before I start drilling! Thanks everybody for your help! It's ideas, ideas, ideas, that help get one nearer the solution. |
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