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Does the second-guessing eventually fade away?

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DaniellaY - 28 Oct 2004 01:52 GMT
Thank you everyone for your words of sympathy and comfort.  

This is the first time I've lost an animal (except a childhood dog) and also
had to make the decision to end a life.  It almost seemed easier to me in the
first 24 hours.  Now I somtimes find myself second guessing.  Living with that
decision is so hard right now but at the same time I can't fully say I regret
it.

No one in this newsgroup ever judged me but some things were suggested that I
chose not to do.  The 2 things I could've done but didn't were the brain scan
to confirm the tumor and the anti-seizure meds.  12 weeks ago the vet would
only consider the anti-seizure meds as a last resort.  The prednisone did
eliminate the seizures and bought her those 12 extra weeks without any
episodes.  When I started seeing hints of seizure activity last week, I was in
a different place.  More important, my little girl was in a different place.
In those 12 weeks I saw a very slow decline in quality of life.    Things like
having to give her 2 meds twice daily to keep her bowels going because she
wasn't going often enough and once strained so hard she fell over in her mess.
Not making the box sometimes.  The pacing, circling.   Not being able to jump
or see. Having to confine her because she was falling off things she was still
able to climb onto in the beginning.  Or her long thick fur beginning to knot
because she couldn't groom like she used to.   She never used to let me brush
her and was fanatical about her own grooming.  But in the end, she would
happily lie there and stick her leg up in the air, then off to the side for me
to brush like she used to do for herself.   I was more than happy to brush her
regularly and spend as much time with her but it was also breaking my heart to
see this slow decline.  And what quality of life is, I'm learning is a very
subjective thing.  Some people can argue that being able to eat and eliminate
is the basic foundation of quality of life.  But beyond that is a very grey
area that is so hard to call.  

In her last few days, I noticed she stopped kneading or purring when I spent
time with her.  Then on Saturday when I saw stronger indication of seizure
activity, something inside of me just snapped..   I couldn't do it anymore, the
agony of making a new decision every week or two, getting deeper and deeper
into this. It was different 5 years ago when she had fatty liver disease, there
was hope for a full recovery and weeks of nursing, she did fully recover and
had 5 great years.  But this was much different, a slow deterioration, a dismal
and inevitable outcome.   I think if I waited much longer to make that call,
the memories of her remaining days may have broken my heart far more than the
loss itself.   I am thinking that this is the key to this whole thing, the
memory of knowing what I allowed her to endure versus the memory of giving her
a good life.

This all sounds like I'm trying to justify myself/decision to you all but I'm
really trying to justify it to myself.  And maybe get some words of comfort
from someone who was once in the place I am now.  I hope this back and forth in
my mind is normal and will eventually subside.  It is so ironic because
yesterday a good friend also made the decision to end her cat's life and she is
struggling with the same things I am.

Thank you for listening and my words of sympathy go out to everyone else who
has ever lost a pet.  Until one experiences it I don't think it's possible to
truly understand the depth and heartbreak of this loss.  And I keep telling
myself that the tears I cry are only for myself because she is in a better
place right now.
Cathy Friedmann - 28 Oct 2004 02:27 GMT
> Thank you everyone for your words of sympathy and comfort.
>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> myself that the tears I cry are only for myself because she is in a better
> place right now.

I don't know if one ever stops second-guessing.  Probably depends upon
different factors: the individual, the circumstances...

With my first cat, after weeks of agonizing over knowing that I'd have to
make the decision at some point, I managed to hit the nail right on the
head, IMO, time-wise for her euthanasia, & so I've never had any
second-guessing, re: her death.  With my second cat, I've second-guessed a
bit - I think I waited anywhere from a couple of hours to a coupe of days
too long in her case.  The reason being that she started to go into
respiratory distress before euthanasia - I wound up having to bring her in
on a "right now" emergency basis; I wish I'd 'caught' her before that
happened.

You can only do what you hope to be the right thing at the time; it's the
best you can do.

Cathy
MacCandace - 28 Oct 2004 03:00 GMT
<< I hope this back and forth in
my mind is normal and will eventually subside. >>

I think it's pretty rare to experience this and not second guess yourself some.
 Yes, it will subside but I think you almost always wonder if it was the right
time.  Some people worry they did it too late, others too early.  It's a big
responsibility to be able to choose when a loved one will die so I guess it's
natural to second guess yourself or we'd be cold.  I've had to make the
decision for my kitties a few times and, although the horrible back and forth
does subside, even now I sometimes wonder, "should I have held out a little
longer, would he have bounced back for awhile?" or "maybe she suffered too long
and I should have made the decision earlier."  It just doesn't drive me crazy
like it did right after the fact.  We do the best we can with the information
we have and the love we feel for them.  You'll have peace with your decision
soon, I'm sure.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
ceb - 28 Oct 2004 17:07 GMT
> In her last few days, I noticed she stopped kneading or purring when I
> spent time with her.

To me this is one of the tell-tale signs that the quality of life is
poor, the lack of purring.

 Then on Saturday when I saw stronger indication
> of seizure activity, something inside of me just snapped..   I
> couldn't do it anymore, the agony of making a new decision every week
> or two, getting deeper and deeper into this.

This sounds to me what you are blaming yourself for -- but you didn't
make the decision because you couldn't do it anymore, you made the
decision because your kitty seemed unhappy. Feeling overwhelmed is just
part of the deal.

It was different 5 years
> ago when she had fatty liver disease, there was hope for a full
> recovery and weeks of nursing, she did fully recover and had 5 great
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> this whole thing, the memory of knowing what I allowed her to endure
> versus the memory of giving her a good life.

Yes, you could see she was miserable and you made a good decision for
her, so that she wouldn't suffer any longer.

> This all sounds like I'm trying to justify myself/decision to you all
> but I'm really trying to justify it to myself.

It doesn't sound false to me at all. It sounds like the very natural
feelings of someone who has made a very difficult decision and lost a
dear pet as a result. Of course you are going to mourn and wish that
things could have been different. Of course it is hard to take this kind
of responsibility for another creature. But you gave her a good life, and
you allowed her to die peacefully and with a minimum of suffering, and
that is a real kindness.

--Catherine
~*Connie*~ - 31 Oct 2004 01:25 GMT
each person is different, and each circumstance is different, but I would
venture to say that the second-guessing will fade.  You knew it was the
right time.  Yes, there probably were other courses you could have taken,
and other things you might could have possibly tried, but there is nothing
to say that they would have worked and that you would have had more quality
time.

Too many times I have seen owners try to hang on too long.  The pets are the
ones suffering for the owner's inability to let go.

Only you know how your kitty was feeling.  Sounds to me from your
description you did the right thing.  I feel deeply for your loss.
-L. : - 02 Nov 2004 07:19 GMT
> Thank you everyone for your words of sympathy and comfort.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> decision is so hard right now but at the same time I can't fully say I regret
> it.

Sweetheart, based on your description, you definitely made the right
choice.  I  have counseled many people about euthanasia, and the worse
thing one can do is wait too long.  Please find comfort in knowing you
gave your cat some peace at the end.

-L.
dgk - 02 Nov 2004 15:41 GMT
>Thank you everyone for your words of sympathy and comfort.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>decision is so hard right now but at the same time I can't fully say I regret
>it.

...

Only people who don't care don't second guess. Until cats can talk to
us, we have to do what we think is best for them. It's only natural
for us to wonder if we should have done more or less. You did the best
that you could and your decision was made with love in your heart.
What more can you do?
Mary - 02 Nov 2004 17:20 GMT
> >Thank you everyone for your words of sympathy and comfort.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that you could and your decision was made with love in your heart.
> What more can you do?

Very nicely put. I know I let my Gnarly go on too long, but it wasn't
for lack of love. I kept thinking she would pull out of it. At least now
I know the kind of denial we can go into when our loved ones are
dying. I will try hard to err on the side of not allowing my cats to
linger and suffer in the future. Gad it makes me teat up to think
about it.
Sherry - 03 Nov 2004 15:18 GMT
>Very nicely put. I know I let my Gnarly go on too long, but it wasn't
>for lack of love. I kept thinking she would pull out of it. At least now
>I know the kind of denial we can go into when our loved ones are
>dying. I will try hard to err on the side of not allowing my cats to
>linger and suffer in the future. Gad it makes me teat up to think
>about it.

You miss Gnarly like I miss my Cherokee. OTOH, I often wonder if I erred on the
other side with Cherokee. I had a dread fear he was going to really go downhill
on a weekend, or the middle of the night, or some other time when the vet could
not be reached, and would suffer for hours while I scrambled around trying to
get a vet for him. I wanted the end to be peaceful, and calm.  Then I
second-guessed that maybe we could have pulled him out of it and he'd been
around for six more months. Gad. That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
it too.
Sherry
Mary - 03 Nov 2004 18:55 GMT
> You miss Gnarly like I miss my Cherokee.

God, you know, I really do miss her. It has been three years last September,
and it still gets me. Even though I now have two cats that are both much
more loving, brighter, and just more personable that she was. Maybe it is
just your first cat that this happens with? Or maybe because she and I lived
together for so long--19.5 years, mostly by ourselves if you overlook the
occasional live-in boyfriend (and I am certainly willing to do that!)

>OTOH, I often wonder if I erred on the other side with >Cherokee. I had a
dread fear he was going to really go >downhill on a weekend, or the middle
of the night, or >some other time when the vet could  not be reached, and
>would suffer for hours while I scrambled around trying to
> get a vet for him. I wanted the end to be peaceful, and calm.

I think you erred on the kinder side. I just couldn't face that I had to
lose Gnarly, and went so deeply into denial that when I asked the vet to
come put her down I told them she was a wild cat, as though she were her old
bitey, shrieky self. So TWO people, the vet and an assistant, get here and
find this emaciated, incontinent cat lying onthe bed barely able to move. It
is the most divorced from reality I have ever been. Just talking about it, I
feel ashamed of myself. (It was her sudden incontinence that led me to call
the vet. She just let go on the bed all the water I had been dribbling into
her via a turkey baster. I looked at her and she looked at me and then I
knew.)

>Then I second-guessed that maybe we could have pulled >him out of it and
he'd been around for six more months. Gad.

That's a tough one, and I do understand how hard the second guessing must
be, but to me, at least you did not let him suffer, and that to me is the
important part. If I had handled Gnarly's last weeks better, I would not
have let her suffer. I did do my best but it was not good enough. I have
always fought to see clearly and not just what I want to see, but I failed
this time, and it was one of the few times that another relied almost
completely on me. Poor baby.

>That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
> it too.
> Sherry

Hee, what a typo, I had not noticed that until I read your reply to it.
Teating up sucks, doesn't it? . ;)

Seriously, there are some things that just never get easier. If deciding
when to end the life of a loved one is not the big one, I don't know what
is. Maybe it is a good thing that euthanasia for people is not legal, come
to think about it. But again, that makes it easier on the onlookers but
harder on the dying. Whoosh.
Sherry - 03 Nov 2004 19:34 GMT
>>That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
>> it too.
>> Sherry
>
>Hee, what a typo, I had not noticed that until I read your reply to it.
>Teating up sucks, doesn't it? . ;)

ROFL!! I didn't realize it was a typo. 'Doh! I didn't exactly know what it
meant to "teat up" but it sounded pretty close to what I was talking about!!
"Teat up" (being of course pronounced "tit" as it's the correct spelling for
udders)=titty baby bawling= oh, never mind.
This thread needed some comic relief anyway.
Sherry
Mary - 03 Nov 2004 20:45 GMT
> >>That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
> >> it too.
> >> Sherry
> >
> >Hee, what a typo, I had not noticed that until I read your reply to it.
Teating up sucks, doesn't it? . ;)

> ROFL!! I didn't realize it was a typo.

Ahahahaha!!!! I thought you were teasing me about my typo, I meant "tearing
up," of course.

>'Doh! I didn't exactly know what it
> meant to "teat up" but it sounded pretty close to what I was talking
about!! "Teat up" (being of course pronounced "tit" as it's the correct
spelling for udders)=titty baby bawling= oh, never mind.
> This thread needed some comic relief anyway.
> Sherry

For real! In honor of this hearty laugh I think we should formally establish
the term "teating up." :)
DaniellaY - 04 Nov 2004 01:59 GMT
Yes, we need a laugh and I just had one.  I just stumbled on the thread of the
person whose cat failed to "cover up his litterbox creations" and it cracked me
up.  

I find this especially funny because my other cat has the same problem.  It's
such a riot to watch this cat poop/pee and then she goes into this 5 minute
ritual where she does this burying motion on the floor next to the box, then
proceeds to wack her paws real hard on the corner of the box(?).  It is so loud
that I'll be on the first floor talking with friends and then you here this
loud wacking noise from the 2nd floor and everyone just looks at me as if to
say what the hell was that?  And after all that time and effort her mess is
still sitting exposed in her box!

I remember this one time I was so embarassed.  She had just deposited a huge
stinking mass in her box, when this guy came over to fix a mistake he made
while installing my Pergo floor (in the same room as the litterbox).  To fix
it, he had to close the door to this small room and the stink was so bad, I'm
surprised the paint didn't peel off the walls. Not to mention the visual.  

Sorry to digress and get gross but this is the hardest I've laughed in weeks
and I had to share :)
dgk - 06 Nov 2004 03:28 GMT
>> >>That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
>> >> it too.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>For real! In honor of this hearty laugh I think we should formally establish
>the term "teating up." :)

I thought it was some British thing, like Moogie, that had just been
adopted.
Mary - 06 Nov 2004 05:56 GMT
> >> >>That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
> >> >> it too.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> I thought it was some British thing, like Moogie, that had just been
adopted.

<G> I love this group. :)
Karen Chuplis - 06 Nov 2004 07:04 GMT
>>>>> That was 5 years ago and I still teat up over
>>>>> it too.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I thought it was some British thing, like Moogie, that had just been
> adopted.

Hmmm. As far as I know Moogie is Quark and Rom's mom. Moggie is a british
domestic cat ;)
ceb - 03 Nov 2004 21:19 GMT
>> You miss Gnarly like I miss my Cherokee.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> ourselves if you overlook the occasional live-in boyfriend (and I am
> certainly willing to do that!)

Mary, I feel the same way about my Nickleby, who died 3 years ago in
December. He really was my best friend throughout some difficult times in
my life, and through a long and change-filled time of my life: from the
time I was 26 through 43 years old. I got him as a small kitten who had
just been weaned, and he bonded to me and was incredibly huggy and
affectionate. I feel like no one can ever be what Nickleby was to me (but
of course I love Rosalie and Zoe very much!).

>>OTOH, I often wonder if I erred on the other side with >Cherokee. I
>>had a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I think you erred on the kinder side. I just couldn't face that I had
> to lose Gnarly, and went so deeply into denial

If it's any comfort at all to you, I had similar problems with Nickleby
-- it just seemed impossible to me to live without him, I didn't see how
I could do it, and I put off the decision way too long.

snip
It is the most divorced from reality I
> have ever been.

Me too. I was just utterly in denial.

> Just talking about it, I feel ashamed of myself.

((((Mary)))), we are all imperfect and we somehow make our worst mistakes
with those we love most. It's important to learn from our mistakes,
forgive ourselves, and move on. I don't think this is a mistake either of
us is likely to repeat.

Take care,

--Catherine
& Rosalie the calicohead
Mary - 04 Nov 2004 06:24 GMT
"ceb" <ceb4v@virginia.edu> wrote>
> Mary, I feel the same way about my Nickleby, who died 3 years ago in
December. He really was my best friend throughout some difficult times in my
life, and through a long and change-filled time of my life: from the
> time I was 26 through 43 years old.

It's hard, isn't it? By the way, I love his name! Have we seen photos?

> If it's any comfort at all to you, I had similar problems with Nickleby --
it just seemed impossible to me to live without him, I didn't see how
> I could do it, and I put off the decision way too long.

Well it is some comfort knowing that others have had a hard time knowing
when to let go despite having great love for the animal and trying hard to
do the right thing. Thanks.

> snip
>  It is the most divorced from reality I
> > have ever been.

> Me too. I was just utterly in denial.

Wasn't it so strange? I have not quite trusted myself since. It must be a
way that our brains are programmed to protect us from terribly painful
things or something.

> > Just talking about it, I feel ashamed of myself.
>
> ((((Mary)))), we are all imperfect and we somehow make our worst mistakes
with those we love most. It's important to learn from our mistakes,  forgive
ourselves, and move on. I don't think this is a mistake either of
> us is likely to repeat.

Thank you, Catherine, that means a lot. I want to think that if we care hard
and try hard we can do the right thing when others are counting on us.
DaniellaY - 05 Nov 2004 03:10 GMT
>I think you erred on the kinder side. I just couldn't face that I had to
>lose Gnarly, and went so deeply into denial that when I asked the vet to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>her via a turkey baster. I looked at her and she looked at me and then I
>knew.)

I think there are two kinds of people who let their animals suffer too long.
The kind that love their animals and in their hearts want what's best for them.
Then the kind that are cold, heartless or indifferent to their pet's suffering
(not you).  It makes me sad when I hear the occasional story where someone's
cat has shrunk to half it's size, stopped eating or vomits every day etc. etc.
and the cat still hasn't been taken to the vet.  You said it yourself...the
only reason you maybe hung on a little longer was because you loved him so much
and didn't want to let him go, not because you were indifferent to his
situation...there's a big difference.
DaniellaY - 04 Nov 2004 01:39 GMT
Sherry, it's so ironic you mention this.  Over the weekend I was reflecting and
thought about another aspect to this.  We often talk in terms of "did I let my
pet suffer because I waited too long" but there's the other aspect you mention
and this dawned on me over the weekend.  What if she passed away while I was
gone all day and I'd feel terrible she was alone or the wondering if it was
peaceful and pain-free for her.  Or what if something awful happened in the
middle of the night and I had to drive 15 miles to the Animal ER (15 miles
would seem like forever in a situation like this, especially if she was in a
terrible place).

At least this way, she was at home with her loved one and left peacefully.

I know what you mean about denial.  Sometimes it's not even denial but if the
pet's condition is a very slow deterioration, it's hard to distinguish between
the "before" and "after".  I was going through photos the other day and saw
this round gorgeous kitty, her coat long and very fluffy, just a big powder
puff looking so happy and energetic (she was a real ham in front of the camera,
often striking so many cute poses and peeping coyly at me through the vertical
blinds and around the corner).  In the end she was still a very attractive cat
but definately not the same cat she once was.
Sherry - 04 Nov 2004 04:44 GMT
> Or what if something awful happened in the
>middle of the night and I had to drive 15 miles to the Animal ER

Yes, that was exactly what I was thinking of. We had to do that once, and could
not reach any vet in the whole county. We had to drive 1.5 hours to the 24 hour
clinic in the city, and the cat died before we got there. I never want to have
to do that again.

Sherry
DaniellaY - 05 Nov 2004 02:55 GMT
>Yes, that was exactly what I was thinking of. We had to do that once, and
>could
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Sherry

Sherry, I am so sorry you had to go through that.  Ever since August what
happened to you became my #1 fear (after being woken at 4 a.m. with my cat
having a grand mal seizure in bed next to me).  It was the most horrified and
helpless I ever felt.
Cheryl - 05 Nov 2004 03:23 GMT
>> Or what if something awful happened in the
>>middle of the night and I had to drive 15 miles to the Animal ER
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Sherry

Just what I went through when Shadow's gut bled out the final time,
and the emergency vet turned us away because "they were closing"[1]
and we had to wait 3 hours more for his regular vet to open. That cat
was served up so many injustices in his last two years of life. I can
only hope the law of karma prevails for his sake.

[1] When I called, they weren't supposed to close for 2 more hours.
Signature

Cheryl

Sherry - 05 Nov 2004 04:49 GMT
>>> Or what if something awful happened in the
>>>middle of the night and I had to drive 15 miles to the Animal ER
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>[1] When I called, they weren't supposed to close for 2 more hours.
I hope so, too Cheryl. I remember that very well. It still makes me mad to
think about it. How dare any facility that calls itself an "emergency" clinic
turn anyone away.

Sherry
Annie Wxill - 06 Nov 2004 00:22 GMT
... That cat
> was served up so many injustices in his last two years of life. I can
> only hope the law of karma prevails for his sake.
> Cheryl
I hope so, too.
What a pair of fighters you and Shadow turned out to be.  I can't believe
that vet clinic turning you away.
Hugs,
Annie
 
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