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Vaccinations The great Debate

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*~*SooZy*~* - 22 Aug 2003 09:37 GMT
The breeder I got my kitten from had used  Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
5.12. we left it longer under my vets advice as he had been unwell 3 times,
twice before we got him, mouth ulcers, lost the fur and whiskers from his
face, had antibiotics, cleared up came back more antibiotics, cleared up,
then we got him and some of you may of remember he got a shock we think!
with a very high temp of 105 and she wanted to make sure he was well before
given him his jabs.

Well in the UK most vets use live vaccines, but after a lot of research I
decided I wanted killed virus's, I believe if you don't ask for killed they
automatically give live/modified.

He had them all inc feline Leukaemia... not Rabies as UK
he was in good health, we got him home and he became really poorly, I rang
the vets spoke to the receptionist  (who did get the vet herself to call me
back.)  She explained that this sometimes happens in cats... but as long as
he wasn't being sick, diarrhoea, then if so bring him in for an anti
inflammatory jab, which he had before after shock.

he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
where ever you put him he didn't move :-(  I was worried sick!  gave him
drips of water from syringe ever 30 mins and some kittyvite which I rubbed
onto his gums. I checked the net and found this a common reaction.....
during the night he started eating, playing and now he is in top form again.
Thank god! I feel like I have been put through the mincer.

I wanted people to know how vaccines can effect their cats... he has to go
back in 3 weeks for the second lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I have read some
people space the injections out over a few days? any ideas? suggestions VERY
welcome... thanks in advanced
Signature

Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

~*SooZy*~ - 22 Aug 2003 11:07 GMT
what are people's view here on boosters every year?
they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.
Recommendations are made on minimum period of immunity, rather than a
possibly maximum.

Signature

Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

PawsForThought - 22 Aug 2003 13:14 GMT
>From: "~*SooZy*~" soozyqureshi@hotrags.com

>what are people's view here on boosters every year?
>they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
>individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.

I believe it was Dr. Ron Schultz who said that immunity may last a lifetime but
I'm sure further studies are being done.    Here's an interesting article on
the possible link between vaccines and kidney disease:

"PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

 Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)
are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,
to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

 Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10µg of
CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein plus an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or
one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

 None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six
were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

 Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed
to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats."

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
PawsForThought - 22 Aug 2003 13:15 GMT
Another article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/
query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12009059&dopt=Abstract
1: Vet Pathol 2002 Mar;39(2):216-27
"Cats differ from mink and ferrets in their response to commercial
vaccines: a histologic comparison of early vaccine reactions.
Carroll EE, Dubielzig RR, Schultz RD.
Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Wisconsin-Madison, 53706, USA. eggerse@s...
Early histologic changes in lesions at vaccine sites were compared in
cats, mink, and ferrets. Twenty-four 4-month-old cats, 20 4-month-old
mink, and 20 12-month-old ferrets were vaccinated with three rabies
virus vaccines, two feline leukemia virus vaccines, alum adjuvant, and
saline. Injection sites were excised at selected time points up to 21
days postvaccination. Histologic examination of the tissue revealed
significant differences among the cats, mink, and ferrets in the local
response to the commercial vaccines. When compared with ferrets and
mink, cats had more lymphocytes in response to all three rabies
vaccines. Production of fibroblasts, collagen, and macrophages differed
among the three killed aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines in cats but did not
differ significantly in mink or ferrets. Cats produced fewer binucleate
cells than did mink or ferrets in response to the two adjuvanted
leukemia virus vaccines. Differences seen in early tissue response of
cats to commercial vaccines may be related to the increased
predisposition of cats to vaccine-associated sarcomas.
PMID: 12009059 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Alison - 23 Aug 2003 12:36 GMT
Hi Soozy ,
 I've read that boosters only need to be done every three years, if
that .Kim gets a bit poorly after , she is also allergic and suffers
from crystals . I'm seriously thinking of not having her done next
year . The only problem is that if you need to use a cattery then you
have to have up to date vaccinations . They are very strict about it .

--
       Alison

Rescues.
http://mysite.freeserve.com/AnimalRescueLinksUK/

Links to animal  information websites
http://mysite.freeserve.com/petinfolinks/

> what are people's view here on boosters every year?
> they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> New Pictures added every few days
> http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
Helen - 23 Aug 2003 19:17 GMT
> Hi Soozy ,
>   I've read that boosters only need to be done every three years, if
> that.

For killed viruses, as commonly used in the US. Live or modified viruses, as
commonly used in the UK, still need to be given yearly because the
manufacturers will not guarantee effectiveness beyond that. I say "need"
because, as you mention, catteries etc. go by the manufacturers's
guidelines. I guess if you don't use a cattery, there's no problem; but many
of us in UK do use catteries.

My vet had a client who had two dogs, siblings. Before agreeing to boosters,
about 14-15 months after the previous injections, he asked for titres. One
dog had titres through the roof; the other's were through the floor. It's so
hard to know what to do for the best. I do get my cats vaccinated, unless
they are sick; it says on the packaging that vaccines are not to be given to
sick animals. Thomas never had shots once he had CRF.

Here's an interesting article from The Cat Group:
http://www.users.waitrose.com/~thecatgroup/vacc.html

HTH

Helen
Alison - 23 Aug 2003 21:50 GMT
Thanks Helen ,
   I didn't realise the differences between the US and UK . I'll have
to rethink .I live in an area with a high cat density and I bet many
don't bother to vaccinate so they  could be a risk to Kim . I've never
had any side affects  with my previous cats or dogs , just Kim  .
 I've been trying to find the right wet diet for Kim . She is on
tinned whiskas and sheba . I don't want to give her raw BARF diet but
not sure what supplements should be added to cooked or steamed mince.
There are diets for dogs like Natures menu but I've not seen one for
cats .
   Alison

"Helen" <helenandcats@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:gdO1b.114$Ix4.43@newsfep3->

For killed viruses, as commonly used in the US. Live or modified
viruses, as
> commonly used in the UK, still need to be given yearly because the
> manufacturers will not guarantee effectiveness beyond that. I say "need"
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Helen
Helen - 23 Aug 2003 23:00 GMT
>  Thanks Helen ,
>     I didn't realise the differences between the US and UK . I'll have
> to rethink .I live in an area with a high cat density and I bet many
> don't bother to vaccinate so they  could be a risk to Kim .

That's why I vaccinate, because my cats go out. They never leave the garden,
but I want to be on the safe side (plus the cattery insists, of course).

I've never
> had any side affects  with my previous cats or dogs , just Kim  .
>   I've been trying to find the right wet diet for Kim . She is on
> tinned whiskas and sheba . I don't want to give her raw BARF diet but
> not sure what supplements should be added to cooked or steamed mince.
> There are diets for dogs like Natures menu but I've not seen one for
> cats .

Feeding cats homemade food is very complicated, and I don't recall seeing
such diets for cats here either. But I certainly wouldn't feed Whiskas or
Sheba, I think they are very poor quality. As you know, we don't have the
same choice in the UK as is available in the US, but I'd consider feeding
better quality (which usually but not always translates as more expensive)
foods. Have you tried something like Yarrah? or Denes? Though I think Denes
adds garlic which is a no-no in my book.

HTH

Helen
>     Alison
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> >
> > Helen
Alison - 24 Aug 2003 13:21 GMT
> Feeding cats homemade food is very complicated, and I don't recall seeing
> such diets for cats here either. But I certainly wouldn't feed Whiskas or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> HTH

 Thanks Helen ,
She didn't like Denes but I might try again . Yarah's sounds good. I
did a search as I'd not heard of it and your website came up!.
I was thinking about given my pets garlic pills as they're suposed to
keep away fleas or is it vampires. lol
Is garlic not good for cats ?
   Alison
Alison Smiley Perera - 22 Aug 2003 13:52 GMT
> The breeder I got my kitten from had used  Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
> Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> decided I wanted killed virus's, I believe if you don't ask for killed they
> automatically give live/modified.

Killed virus vaccines have to have much stronger adjuvants, and despite
that they don't induce as strong of immunity and have to be repeated in
an initial series. One single modified-live distemper vaccine would
undoubtedly have protected your cat for 7 years since it was given after
he was old enough for his immune system to respond.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&l
ist_uids=10328440&dopt=Abstract

The only fear with modified-live vaccines is that they could revert to
virulence. This risk is almost nonexistent with modern vaccines.

> He had them all inc feline Leukaemia... not Rabies as UK
> he was in good health, we got him home and he became really poorly, I rang
> the vets spoke to the receptionist  (who did get the vet herself to call me
> back.)  She explained that this sometimes happens in cats... but as long as
> he wasn't being sick, diarrhoea, then if so bring him in for an anti
> inflammatory jab, which he had before after shock.

"Anti-inflammatory" is generally vet-speak for steroids which depress
the immune system including the bits that create inflammation. So after
challenging your cat's immune system with a vaccination, you promptly
squelched his immune system with steroids!

I'm confused. You have a holistically-oriented breeder who is using
homeopathic nosodes in lieu of vaccination. Does your breeder have no
other recommendations about vaccination and vaccination intervals, or
better yet can't he/she recommend a holistic vet? From the description
of all the ulcers and fevers this sounds like a cat that's going to
require careful management for his whole life. If he were mine I
wouldn't go about that management by beating into submission every
symptom that crops up; rather I'd work with a holistic vet to get to the
root of the problem.

> he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
> where ever you put him he didn't move :-(  I was worried sick!  gave him
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> people space the injections out over a few days? any ideas? suggestions VERY
> welcome... thanks in advanced

Immunologically speaking, you'll get the best result if you give
individual disease vaccines at two week intervals.

Good luck, I'm glad your kitten got through his first vaccine reaction
alright. I think I've heard the second is generally much worse once the
system is sensitized.

-Alison in OH
~*SooZy*~ - 22 Aug 2003 16:09 GMT
> > The breeder I got my kitten from had used  Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
> > Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> challenging your cat's immune system with a vaccination, you promptly
> squelched his immune system with steroids

ok I understand that.

> I'm confused. You have a holistically-oriented breeder who is using
> homeopathic nosodes in lieu of vaccination.

well she only uses nosodes because she lost a litter of kitten when they
were 8 weeks old of what they were vaccinated against

Does your breeder have no
> other recommendations about vaccination and vaccination intervals, or
> better yet can't he/she recommend a holistic vet?

she does not live near me, she buy the medication on line.

From the description
> of all the ulcers and fevers this sounds like a cat that's going to
> require careful management for his whole life. If he were mine I
> wouldn't go about that management by beating into submission every
> symptom that crops up; rather I'd work with a holistic vet to get to the
> root of the problem.

well all 3 of the kittens in that litter got the *infection* it was cleared
up with a 5 day does of antibiotics, then a few days later it came back, so
may it was just not cleared up in the first place.

> > he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
> > where ever you put him he didn't move :-(  I was worried sick!  gave him
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Immunologically speaking, you'll get the best result if you give
> individual disease vaccines at two week intervals.

Ok I will speak to my vet tomorrow about this, thank you for your
suggestions

> Good luck, I'm glad your kitten got through his first vaccine reaction
> alright. I think I've heard the second is generally much worse once the
> system is sensitized.
>
> -Alison in OH
kaeli - 22 Aug 2003 14:22 GMT
> He had them all inc feline Leukaemia...

That is overdoing it. His little immune system has to fight over
everything at once.

Most vaccines are not needed and some are actually not recommended. Many
vaccines do not even prevent the cat from getting sick - they just
lessen the severity.

http://critterfixer.com/pages/feline.asp
http://critterfixer.com/pages/v7_vaccs_not_recommend_cats.htm
http://www.avma.org/vafstf/rbbroch.asp

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading
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