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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2004Cat play circle
After last Monday's escapade with the baby squirrel I was hoping for a little respite. No such luck. Yesterday as I was vacuuming I pushed aside a piece of furniture and one of my cats was shortly thereafter quite animated. I went downstairs, came up an hour later and found 5 cats in a circle--no kidding--batting a very live mouse back and forth between them. "Your turn!" "No, my turn!" It was the funniest thing I've ever seen. I scooped the mouse up in the trashcan I use for litter and escorted it outside, dazed, but living. That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the mouse?  SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com > After last Monday's escapade with the baby squirrel I was hoping for a > little respite. No such luck. Yesterday as I was vacuuming I pushed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > scooped the mouse up in the trashcan I use for litter and escorted it > outside, dazed, but living. > That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the mouse? What the hell is wrong with you? I was recently chatting to a vet friend of mine, and he regaled a tale of how he used to raise mice for the express purpose of feeding his cats... Steve. >I was recently chatting to a vet friend of mine, and he regaled a tale >of how he used to raise mice for the express purpose of feeding his >cats... > >Steve. Grosssss. While I understand the natural order of the food chain, it's a whole different deal to stage a mini-gladiator event for the entertainment of the cats. :-) Sherry "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> posted <g5mfd.6968$YL.621898@twister.southeast.rr.com> in rec.pets.cats.health+behav on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:25:16 GMT: >> That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the >mouse? > >What the hell is wrong with you? You are aware of the natural order of things. Predator - prey etc? Cats EAT mice. Deal with it. It's in their fuzzy nature. -- K. A. Cannon kcannon at insurgent dot org (change the orgy to org to reply) http://www.insurgent.org - Sponsored by Carlyle Group Try not to let your mind wander... It is too small and fragile to be out by itself. On Tue, 27 May 2003 12:19:08 I was Wollkooked: This spammer is full of sh.t. Get out of my mail or face legal action. I have no such email addresses listed nor would I remove them if I did. The spammer in question is a spammer--that's it, he has harassed and defamed me and my companies for 7 years now and I really don't care what you want. The ISP sending me this threat is hosting a defamation website that is being sued and will be removed from the net+ damages. <boink>--I have already requested at least THREE times that this abuser cease and desist mailing me, therefore I ask that you take action to kill this offending account immediately. > "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> posted > <g5mfd.6968$YL.621898@twister.southeast.rr.com> in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Cats EAT mice. Deal with it. > It's in their fuzzy nature. f.ck off Kevvie. Doesn't Gary need his butt licked today? On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:31:33 GMT, "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> amazed us with his/her particular brand of stupidity in <9Kwfd.19334$hr3.595051@twister.southeast.rr.com> in rec.pets.cats.health+behav when he/she wrote: >> "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> posted >> <g5mfd.6968$YL.621898@twister.southeast.rr.com> in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >f.ck off Kevvie. Doesn't Gary need his butt licked today? Wow...what kook are yew that I hace pissed on or off, as the case may be. -- K. A. Cannon kacannon at insurgent dot org (change the orgy to org to reply) http://www.insurgent.org - Sponsored by The Carlyle Group Russell B Waters tells it like it is in <1097911404.KHsq/aH3VBI7LEEt3vynkg@teranews>: "True. I have no facts." Partly I was joking about letting the cats have the mouse but there is a lot of truth in the fact that cats eat mice. That is their predatory nature which can't be stopped. I have to wonder if the person who thought there was something wrong with a cat killing a mouse also is willing to free a bug that also gets in the clutches of cats? My cats kill bugs and if a mouse got inside where I live, my cats would probably kill it. Cats are natural vermin and rodent control. That is another fact you can't change. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com > "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> posted > <g5mfd.6968$YL.621898@twister.southeast.rr.com> in [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > mailing me, therefore I ask that you take action to kill this offending > account immediately. > > That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the > mouse? > > What the hell is wrong with you? ---------------------------------------- eXactly! got to completely agree - well.. I assume the above reply = same as mine... it matters not that it's a mouse - it's a living small creature that deserves to live, regardless of anything! I'v rescued quite a few over the years - it might be natural for cats to hunt, but if they bring anything home that's alive and can be saved - I'll save it! A few days back I was calling in one of our cats - spotted him in a garden looking intensely at something... couldnt make it out in the late evening light.. he batted it - it moved.. what the?? a thrush fallen out of it's nest - feathered but weeks away from being out n about! what choice was there - leave it to meet a nasty end.. or pick it up and make a nest in an old birdcage? as it was late -I half filled a bucket with dry grass.. the next morning about to bring it out and try and feed it... the parent birds flew around when they heard it -- next the bucket was placed hanging in the tree - where I assumed the nest was - it was quite amusing to see the parent birds trying to figure out this bucket!! ?:) they soon did and were back feeding their chick regularly. It doesnt matter what the creature is.. a lost chick or a mouse... size does not determine whether it deserves to live or not, or even it's percieved reputation. Pests are only pests to us - their only making use of the environment we create for them. it's not their fault. > > > That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the > > mouse? > > > > What the hell is wrong with you? > ---------------------------------------- > eXactly! got to completely agree - well.. I assume the above reply = same as mine... it matters not that it's a mouse - it's a living small creature that deserves to live, regardless of anything! Yep. Anyone who would willingly watch any little creattre get tortured to death has a lose screw. On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:30:15 GMT, "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> amazed us with his/her particular brand of stupidity in <XIwfd.19333$hr3.594958@twister.southeast.rr.com> in rec.pets.cats.health+behav when he/she wrote: >> "Mary" <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:<g5mfd.6968$YL.621898@twister.southeast.rr.com>... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Yep. Anyone who would willingly watch any little creattre get tortured to >death has a lose screw. Better talk to your cats, they think it's kewl. -- K. A. Cannon kacannon at insurgent dot org (change the orgy to org to reply) http://www.insurgent.org - Sponsored by The Carlyle Group Russell B Waters tells it like it is in <1097911404.KHsq/aH3VBI7LEEt3vynkg@teranews>: "True. I have no facts." > > That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the > mouse? > > What the hell is wrong with you? Cats eat mice. Even if they ARE cute. Better than humans dissecting them and NOT eating them, IMO. /I dunno, I'm tired Signature-- ~kaeli~ He's your God, they're your rules - you burn in Hell. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the > > mouse? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > /I dunno, I'm tired If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for their owner to allow them to torture anything to death. Period. Hell, Geoffrey Dahmer ate what he killed, but don't you wish he'd just had a Lean Cuisine? > If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for > their owner to allow them to torture anything to death. Period. Hell, > Geoffrey Dahmer ate what he killed, but don't you wish he'd just had a Lean > Cuisine? hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! I suppose so. ;) *giggles* Signature-- ~kaeli~ A lot of money is tainted - It taint yours and it taint mine. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for their owner to allow them to torture anything to death. Period. Hell,Geoffrey Dahmer ate what he killed, but don't you wish he'd just had a Lean Cuisine? > hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! > > I suppose so. ;) > *giggles* I thought so! :) Your point is well taken, though. As natural as it is for cats to catch prey, it seems creepy as hell for a human to encourage them to torment mice to death when it is not necessary. (...) > If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for > their owner to allow them to torture anything to death. And the abbatoir is simply a haven of humane death, eh? That chicken heading toward the knife in the abbatoir has no guarantee of a fast demise. A hungry cat will kill a mouse quickly, too. Also, people buy crickets etc. for their cats to hunt and kill (Phil's one, indeed). Cruel or attempting to give an indoor cat some real hunting action? Also also - are people who watch those nature programmes (you know, the ones with lions ripping apart cute Norwegian pygmy marmosets, and all that jazz) fuc'd in the head for choosing to observe this death, albeit on a screen? Steve. > (...) > > If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Steve. You can be so tiresome. If you think it's fine to encourage your cat (the ones you allow outdoors in a busy urban area) to kill mice rather than eat cat food, go ahead. And if you do, yes, I think you are f.cked up. Very simple. (...) > You can be so tiresome. No doubt. Maybe nearly as tiresome as endlessly leaping on threads with the express purpose of casting insults and creating a self-consciously edgy web persona, wouldn't you say? > If you think it's fine to encourage your cat (the > ones you allow outdoors in a busy urban area) to kill mice rather than eat > cat food, go ahead. S'funny I don't recall this being my suggestion at all. Ah well, perhaps you were just leaping on the thread with the express purpose of casting insults and creating a self-consciously edgy web persona. > And if you do, yes, I think you are f.cked up. Very > simple. Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? S. > (...) > > > > You can be so tiresome. > > No doubt. Maybe nearly as tiresome as endlessly leaping on threads with the express purpose of casting insults and creating a self-consciously edgy web persona, wouldn't you say? I would say that you may think you can read minds and determine motivations, but I'm just not so sure you can. I am what I am, and among other things am far too lazy to have any such "express purpose." I simply say what I mean. > > If you think it's fine to encourage your cat (the > > ones you allow outdoors in a busy urban area) to kill mice rather than eat > > cat food, go ahead. > > S'funny I don't recall this being my suggestion at all. Ah well, perhaps you were just leaping on the thread with the express purposeof casting insults and creating a self-consciously edgy web persona. Uhuh. You know, if I cared enough to want to "create" any type of "persona" I might care that you think I am doing it. I think. Maybe. No way to tell for sure. > > And if you do, yes, I think you are f.cked up. Very > > simple. > > Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? I remember when I thought you were witty. I can't remember why at the moment. That you take issue with my statement that I think it is uneccesary to encourage our cats to torture things to death when we need only open a can to feed them is just stupid. And boring. But thanks so much for exercising your freedom of speech. (...) > I would say that you may think you can read minds and determine motivations, > but I'm just not so sure you can. That's OK, I'm not sure either. Life's like that. > I am what I am, You seem to be suffering from a bout of Popeye. (...) > I remember when I thought you were witty. I can't remember why at the > moment. Head injuries have a habit of getting better. > That you take issue with my statement that I think it is uneccesary > to encourage our cats to torture things to death when we need only open a > can to feed them is just stupid. And boring. I don't take issue with the fact it's unnecessary, I take issue with the statements that allowing a cat to hunt (in your presence) is an evil or otherwise screwy act. I have certainly observed cats out on the hunt, and I do not intervene. I like to see a cat doing what it's evolved to do, and if that makes me screwed up in your eyes, then so be it. Nature red in tooth and claw and all that jazz. On the flip side, I have live captured mice from my basement, overwintered 'em indoors, and then released 'em in the springtime. Thought of feeding them to my moggies never entered my head. So I suppose I too have a soft-headed, tree-hugging, knit-your-own-rainbow module in my brain somewhere. Steve. > I don't take issue with the fact it's unnecessary, I take issue with > the statements that allowing a cat to hunt (in your presence) is an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > suppose I too have a soft-headed, tree-hugging, knit-your-own-rainbow > module in my brain somewhere. I had a neighbour when I was a kid who used to go to the pet store and buy hamsters/white mice to give as 'treats' for her cats. Now that crosses the line, cats hunting wild mice I have no problem with. SignatureI.P.Freely > Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for > feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? They make canned snake food?!?! Signature-- ~kaeli~ Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for > > feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? > > They make canned snake food?!?! Hee! It would have to have something in it to make it MOVE for some of them to eat it! Eyuuuuu! > > Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for > > feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? > > They make canned snake food?!?! Not as such, but you can get pre-frozen rodents. There is canned food for some lizards though. S. >> They make canned snake food?!?! > >Not as such, but you can get pre-frozen rodents. There is canned food >for some lizards though. > >S. ROFL! I see a gap in the pet food industry. Where's the Purina Lizard Chow when you need it. Sherry (...) > ROFL! I see a gap in the pet food industry. Where's the Purina Lizard Chow > when you need it. Yeah, that'd be cool. We could then restart the Hills vs. touchy-feely foods debate in the herp groups, too. Hurray! S. > > > Some more tiresome stuff for you: Wonder if Herp'ers are f.cked up for > > > feeding (live) rodents to their pets of choice? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not as such, but you can get pre-frozen rodents. There is canned food > for some lizards though. Here I am, trying to be sarcastically funny, and you go and get serious for once. Shame on you. :p Signature-- ~kaeli~ Doing my part to piss off the Religious Right. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > Here I am, trying to be sarcastically funny, and you go and get serious for > once. > > Shame on you. :p Tinned snake food is NO LAUGHING MATTER. Tinned mosquito food is another story... Grub up! <eeeeeeeeeeemmmmzzzzzzzzzzzCHOMPCHOMPCHOMP.Burp.> S. > Also, people buy crickets etc. for their cats to hunt and kill (Phil's > one, indeed). Well, now, crickets aren't CUTE and FURRY. ;) *LOL* Signature-- ~kaeli~ Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > Well, now, crickets aren't CUTE and FURRY. ;) > *LOL* Bang on! I tell ya, crickets could be more intelligent than dolphins and most people would still happily stamp on 'em. Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I tell ya, crickets could be more intelligent than dolphins and most people would still happily stamp on 'em. > Steve. Not "bang on," as you so charmingly put it. I like the crickets that sing but the ones that are just ugly and prolific (we call them camel crickets here) creep me out. In any case I don't let my cats torment them to death if I find them. That creeps me out more. I also free moths from spider webs if I see them moving around, even though I don't knock down the spider webs, which creeps some people out. Why do I free the moths? It is just gross to allow something to be tortured. Moth or mouse. Simple. Your "argument" that it's all natural, and the chicken I eat does not necessarily die painlessly etc. etc. ad nauseum is really beside the point. There are lots of "natural" things I interfere with on a regular basis. Disease, for example. Back to the point: anyone who enjoys seeing any living thing tear apart or otherwise torture a living creature is f.cked up in my opinion. You are welcome to your own. (But I think you might want to look into some new hobbies.) > Why do I free the moths? So the spider starves to death? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > Why do I free the moths? > > So the spider starves to death? :) They always find lots to eat when I am not looking. All of my windows (three levels of them) look like Mad Scientist Spider projects with bugs in various states of mummification etc. (I guess it has been time to remove the storm windows that are over the inner windows--the spiders live between them.) But really, man, can you look at a moth writhing around about to get paralyzed and supped upon alive and not want to free it? > :) They always find lots to eat when I am not looking. All of my windows > (three levels of them) look like Mad Scientist Spider projects with bugs in > various states of mummification etc. (I guess it has been time to remove the > storm windows that are over the inner windows--the spiders live between > them.) But really, man, can you look at a moth writhing around about to get > paralyzed and supped upon alive and not want to free it? Honestly, I don't look. I have a terrible spider phobia. I couldn't get close enough to the web to free it if I wanted to. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Support your local medical examiner: die strangely! http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > :) They always find lots to eat when I am not looking. All of my windows > > (three levels of them) look like Mad Scientist Spider projects with bugs in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Honestly, I don't look. I have a terrible spider phobia. > I couldn't get close enough to the web to free it if I wanted to. I like them as long as they don't touch me. I used to play with Daddy Longlegs and let them crawl all over me when I was a child, but I don't think they are real spiders. >:) They always find lots to eat when I am not looking. All of my windows >(three levels of them) look like Mad Scientist Spider projects with bugs in >various states of mummification etc. (I guess it has been time to remove the >storm windows that are over the inner windows--the spiders live between >them.) But really, man, can you look at a moth writhing around about to get >paralyzed and supped upon alive and not want to free it? I have a *beautiful* argiope spider on my front porch overhang. She is gorgeous and getting huge. It's fall now though, and I guess she's gonna gork any day now. I take bugs out of the web if I see them struggling. I often thought the spider sees me coming out the door and goes, "Damn, here she comes. There goes dinner." Sherry > I have a *beautiful* argiope spider on my front porch overhang. She is gorgeous and getting huge. It's fall now though, and I guess she's gonna gork any day > now. Is this the yellow and green variety? If so , I love them. I haven't seen one of these this year, but we have the big brown equivalent in the front--similar markings, very large, but brown and black. His/her abdomen is huge--I thought babies but my husband said the egg sac is always separate? My MIL spends a lot of time killing every spider she finds at her house, so she comes to our house and nearly bites her tongue in half!! To me, it makes no sense that she kills all the spiders then has to use sprays and things to kill the unwanted insects they would eat. > I take bugs out of the web if I see them struggling. I often thought the spider sees me coming out the door and goes, "Damn, here she comes. There goes dinner." Heh. I imagine my spiders mostly like me because I don't dust and vacuum as often as I ought to so there are lots of eats around. >Is this the yellow and green variety? If so , I love them. I haven't seen >one of these this year, Yeah! Here's a pic I found that looks just like her: http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/okwild/misc/blkyellarg.html They're really cool to watch. They call them the "writing spider" because they make those ziggy-zaggy lines in their web. Yes, your DH is right, the egg sac is separate. But toward fall, the spider just gets fatter and fatter. Middle-age I guess. I never kill any spider except black widows or fiddlebacks. We mostly just get argiopes, grandaddies and those jumpy spiders you see in the flower bed. None of those are poisonous. Sherry > But really, man, can you look at a moth writhing around about to get > paralyzed and supped upon alive and not want to free it? Wanting to free it and actually freeing it are different. African Wild Dogs often disembowl and begin to eat their prey while it is still alive (sometimes still running, even). While I feel bad for the prey (espcially cute, furry, baby animal prey) I would never be tempted to try to save the prey. Ever see those nature shows on TV where lions kill cute, furry, baby zebras? Or the cheetah kills a baby gazelle? Or the alligator drowns a wildebeast? It's horrible to watch. You want to save them. But those predators need that food. Nature can be cruel. Saving prey deprives predator. And while I hate spiders, it's still the natural order of things. I don't go around killing spiders outside. I wouldn't deprive them of their prey any more than I would step on them for no reason. (inside my house they're fair game and usually become prety themselves to my cats *LOL*) Anyways, my 2 cents. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Once you've seen one shopping center, you've seen a mall. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > But really, man, can you look at a moth writhing around about to get > > paralyzed and supped upon alive and not want to free it? > > Wanting to free it and actually freeing it are different. Not in my life. <G> I am a poster child for self indulgence, I guess. I nearly always do what I want to do. > African Wild Dogs often disembowl and begin to eat their prey while it is still alive (sometimes still running, even). While I feel bad for the prey (espcially cute, furry, baby animal prey) I would never be tempted to try to > save the prey. I get the "natural order" thing, but really, you are not apt to be around African Wild Dogs, now are you? Nor am I, nor would I get between them and their prey lest I start to look tasty to them! We've sequed from talking about interrupting a cat from torturing a mouse to death and giving him a bowl of cat food instead, to pulling a struggling moth out of a spider web. Not the same thing since the spider is "wild," so I'll give you that. > Ever see those nature shows on TV where lions kill cute, furry, baby zebras? Or the cheetah kills a baby gazelle? Or the alligator drowns a wildebeast? > It's horrible to watch. You want to save them. But those predators need that food. > Nature can be cruel. And I am part of nature, therefore I can be cruel and snatch the little moth away from the fangs of the spider. :) I don't do it because it is right and good, I do it because I cannot stand NOT to. I never said that saving the mouse or the moth is "right" either for us or for the natural order of things. My original, brilliant comment, directed to the brilliant and talented CP who asked why the person who took the mouse away did not let the cats have it was "What the hell is wrong with you?" This was an admittedly cretin-like way of asking "how could you stand to do that?" I take the prey away from housecats because I cannot stand to stand by and watch a living thing get tortured to death. Period. And I think those who can are frightening, or, as I so elegantly put it to Steve, "f.cked up." Just my two inflammatory but passionately sincere cents. lol >Saving prey deprives predator. And while I hate spiders, it's still the natural order of things. I don't go around killing spiders outside. I wouldn't deprive them of their prey any more than I would step on them for no reason. (inside my house they're fair game and usually become prety themselves to my cats *LOL*) > Anyways, my 2 cents. And worth much more, as usual. Back to cats and mice, I am surprised nobody has brought up the fact that the mice may be carrying disease or parasites. > -- > ~kaeli~ > Once you've seen one shopping center, you've seen a mall. > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Okay, sorta back on topic... > I never said that saving the mouse or the moth is "right" either for us or > for the natural order of things. My original, brilliant comment, directed to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > who can are frightening, or, as I so elegantly put it to Steve, "f.cked up." > Just my two inflammatory but passionately sincere cents. lol *LOL* Hey, you're entitled. I have thought about letting my cats have mice. But I find mice much too cute to let my cats torture. I am well aware that this is simply me thinking mice are cute and fuzzy, because I have no problem letting them torure insects for their own amusement, should any insects get into my home. I guess I was just trying to put out the point that there is nothing inherently bad about letting cats kill and eat mice. Predators torture prey. That's the natural order of the world. It's our own human desire to think mice, being cute and all, are somehow "better" than crickets. To make a line of "better than" is very human. If you don't care when your cat eats ants, but care when it eats a mouse, that's just you being human. But it's not immoral for a person to let their cat be a cat and kill prey. Maybe icky, maybe gross, maybe kinda odd, but not immoral. Equally, it's not immoral for a human to bring prey to a cat. Mother cats bring prey to their kittens to teach them to hunt. Most experts believe domesticated cats are all cute and cuddly and we love them because they retain so many kitten-like qualities. Is is that much of a stretch for us to behave like a mama cat and bring our kittens prey? Not that I could bring them anything cute and furry, I'm just sayin'. ;) > Back to cats and mice, I am surprised nobody > has brought up the fact that the mice may be carrying disease or parasites. Wild ones do. Which is why people buy store-raised mice from the pet store. They're feeder mice, anyway. It's a cat or someone's snake. Again, I have a real affinity for rats, and thus mice, so I could never do it. But I don't think people who do are major oddballs, either. Signature-- ~kaeli~ I can't sleep. The clowns might eat me. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Hey, you're entitled. > I have thought about letting my cats have mice. But I find mice much too [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for > their own amusement, should any insects get into my home. I have been known to rescue a baby wild rat that Cassius, the great grey hunter, brought inside to play with. Ecologically, this was a no-no, as rats are very destructive to our environment, but it was just a baby and was, really, very cute and I just couldn't bring myself to kill it. So I released it (much to Cassius's disgust). But I'll only ever catch and release the prey if cat has actually released the prey inside and it's visibly unhurt, apart from the shock. Otherwise, I simply insist the cat and prey go outside. This has led to some rather amusing situationsl, such as the time I was studying and heard the cat door open but not close. I just had this feeling. So I stood up and took three steps so I was standing facing the cat door, about 2 metres away. There was Cassius, halfway through, with a bird in his mouth. He had stopped because he had sensed me inside and knows he's not allowed to bring prey inside, so was waiting to see what would happen. I just looked sternly at him and said, sternly "Cassius, no!" He thought about it for 5 secs, then backed out the cat door, bird still in mouth, and proceeded to spend the next hour wandering around the garden, looking for a safe place where he could release the bird to play with. Every time he passed the lounge window (floor-to-ceiling) he looked up to check if I was still inside ... Just this week I picked him up from the lounge, baby mouse firmly gripped by his mouth, and placed them both outside. > There was > Cassius, halfway through, with a bird in his mouth. He had stopped because [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the bird to play with. Every time he passed the lounge window > (floor-to-ceiling) he looked up to check if I was still inside ... I'll never forget the horrified look on my Mom's face when our cat, Nikki- kitty, tried to bring her a bird from the yard. I was all of 9 or 10, I think. I laughed my butt off at the sight of my Mom chasing the cat around the yard with a broom trying to get her to drop it. The cat kept deftly out of reach, but when Mom turned her back, she would doggedly try to offer it up again. The chase went on for like 10 minutes, when Mom gave up and came in the house and shut the door. Nikki-kitty, quite confused, eventually left the bird in the middle of the yard and cried to come in. The bird had been feigning death the entire time and got up after the cat left and flew off. I still laugh when I think about it. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > I'll never forget the horrified look on my Mom's face when our cat, Nikki- > kitty, tried to bring her a bird from the yard. I was all of 9 or 10, I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > bird in the middle of the yard and cried to come in. The bird had been > feigning death the entire time and got up after the cat left and flew off. Smart bird! > I guess I was just trying to put out the point that there is nothing inherently bad about letting cats kill and eat mice. Predators torture prey. That's the natural order of the world. It's our own human desire to think mice, being cute and all, are somehow "better" than crickets. > To make a line of "better than" is very human. If you don't care when your cat eats ants, but care when it eats a mouse, that's just you being human. But it's not immoral for a person to let their cat be a cat and kill prey. Maybe icky, maybe gross, maybe kinda odd, but not immoral. Equally, it's not immoral for a human to bring prey to a cat. Mother cats bring prey to their kittens to teach them to hunt. Most experts believe domesticated cats are all > cute and cuddly and we love them because they retain so many kitten-like qualities. Is is that much of a stretch for us to behave like a mama cat and bring our kittens prey? > Not that I could bring them anything cute and furry, I'm just sayin'. ;) Agreed on all points. However, when faced with a human being watching a well-fed cat torture a mouse to death, "What the hell is wrong with you" will probably always be my response. (...) > Not "bang on," as you so charmingly put it. Charmingly? Props to the props - http://www.last.fm/music/Propellerheads/_/Bang+On! > I like the crickets that sing > but the ones that are just ugly and prolific (we call them camel crickets > here) creep me out. Ugly and prolific, hmmm. Cover them with fluffyness and make them produce cute noises and they'd be the family pet before you can say 'urk! Gross.' > In any case I don't let my cats torment them to death > if I find them. That creeps me out more. I also free moths from spider webs > if I see them moving around, even though I don't knock down the spider webs, > which creeps some people out. Why do I free the moths? It is just gross to > allow something to be tortured. Moth or mouse. Simple. It might be gross, but that's the way it works out there. If you successfully stopped this evildoing by spiders, there wouldn't be any spiders. The only reason saving the moths is cool is because the spider is bound to get another insect before long. If your actions actually made a difference to spiders overall, this would really be a bad thing. As it stands, it's an indulgence with no problems. Nature filmmakers do not intervene - presumably you'd have them rescuing the lion's prey instead. I don't save things from spider webs, but I do move caterpillars rather than squashing them if it's feasible. However, if it is not feasible, under the boot they go. I'll freely kill roaches, flies, etc. Pragmatism. > Your "argument" that > it's all natural, and the chicken I eat does not necessarily die painlessly > etc. etc. ad nauseum is really beside the point. I don't think it is. You have a choice whether to eat food that's produced humanely, or not, just as you have a choice whether to save the moth or not. Becoming vegetarian would save far more animals than the number you extract from cobwebs or cat paws. A non-generous interpretation would say that saving the moth is easy, giving up having animals killed for your eating pleasure is hard, and so people will do the former but not the latter. > There are lots of "natural" > things I interfere with on a regular basis. Disease, for example. Diseases are not conscious. I don't know of anyone who has moral problems with destroying diseases! > Back to the point: anyone who enjoys seeing any living thing tear apart or > otherwise torture a living creature is f.cked up in my opinion. You are > welcome to your own. > (But I think you might want to look into some new hobbies.) Well I would, but I'm (snap) too busy (snap) pulling the (snap) legs off this dog. Steve. >(...) >> If the goddamned cats have access to canned food there is no reason for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Steve. We live in a world of contradictions on this subject. The bottom line is that all living things die, and all living things need to kill in order to stay alive until then. We didn't set up the ground rules; we just have to live by them. That said, I am not a vegetarian. I know that things die to feed me. I do my best to see that they have a decent life and humane, painless, and calm death. I rarely succeed I think. I have pulled two mice and two birds from my cats. One mouse was too badly injured to survive. Already bleeding and comatose. I buried him at sea. The other was unharmed and I sent him to college. That is, I live by a college, so I took him/her to the big lawn and set him free. I'm sure he is dead by now so I only postponed the inevitable. Perhaps he died that day when a bigger bird spotted him in the grass. Who knows? Of the birds, one died, and the other I got away from Espy before he was seriously hurt. I left him alone and later he was gone fromt he yard. I hope he got away. I don't think that I could feed living things to my cats so that they can have fun killing them, even crickets. They have plently of motion toys and we play with various human activated toys pretty often. That will have to suffice. They do kill a variety of insects when they are out in the backyard. Life goes on. >From: "Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com >> That was a very nice thing to do but why didn't you let the cats have the >mouse? > >What the hell is wrong with you? Need you ask? LOL and to answer CP's question - have you ever seen a cat with a mouse? In essence, the cat quite simply tortures the mouse to death. I'm sure something the OP didn't really want to see. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Mary" crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Need you ask? LOL *Sigh* You're right, of course. > and to answer CP's question - have you ever seen a cat with a mouse? In essence, the cat quite simply tortures the mouse to death. I'm sure something the OP didn't really want to see. > ________ Maybe those who are all for letting them have at the mouse have not seen this. One can only hope. > After last Monday's escapade with the baby squirrel I was hoping for a > little respite. No such luck. Yesterday as I was vacuuming I pushed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > scooped the mouse up in the trashcan I use for litter and escorted it > outside, dazed, but living. I suspect even a short stay in *that* trashcan would leave anybody dazed! >After last Monday's escapade with the baby squirrel I was hoping for a >little respite. No such luck. Yesterday as I was vacuuming I pushed aside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >scooped the mouse up in the trashcan I use for litter and escorted it >outside, dazed, but living. Most animals are safe from my cats, being that they're in an enclosure. The squirrels have even learned the cats can't get to them, so join in with the cats in stalking games, getting repeatedly close to the enclosure until the cats chase them. Some animals haven't caught on. Here's what I found when I walked into the bedroom yesterday. Don't worry, nothing was harmed in the making of these pictures, although there was probably some reptilian indignity involved: http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/snake_1.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/snake_2.jpg |
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