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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2004

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Update on our mid-summer adoption.. bad (long)

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Brian Link - 11 Oct 2004 07:14 GMT
To recap if you haven't read my earlier posts...

A stray had been frequenting our house for over a month. He was
flea-bitten, mite-infested and hungry, but obviously socialized to
humans because he was so friendly.

We were at the time owned by two cats; Tiger, 10 yr old, farm cat
mutt/maine coon wannabe, and his newest best friend, Louis, a 2 yr old
Bengal. Tiger has lived with other cats before peacefully, and Louis
has never lived with any cat except his littermates and Tiger. We put
posters up, checked with the missing cats file at the humane society,
and determined that the stray was truly on his own. We got him fixed,
vaccinated, and began quaranteening him from the other cats in our
home.

Mid-summer, we began slowly introducing him to the residents. First
through a cracked door, then by close supervision in the same room.
Through this time, he'd attacked Louis and scarred his ear, and also
Tiger, leaving no marks. The two residents had nonetheless put up a
good fight, scarring him.

The stray, named Henry (because that's what he told me his name was)
is an overwhelmingly wonderful housecat - jumping onto our laps,
cuddling in bed, and playful and curious. He has become huge, so that
now we're dieting him, and he outweighs the other cats by several
pounds.

As Fall fell, we've taken to a routine of keeping him totally separate
from the other cats, since he's shown no interest in being friendly.

Tiger hides if he detects Henry is about, and Louis keeps a close eye.
Lately when transferring the cats, Louis has shown a great
determination to charge Henry, though I've always stopped him before
any more fur can fly. On the few occasions where they've moved too
fast for us to check them, Henry has been determined to kill Tiger,
and Louis will join in to defend his big brother.

The earlier responses I got here were none too encouraging.. some
folks saying it was months or years before their cats were integrated.
Now I'm looking for some new direction based on the long time we've
had them all in the same house but not mixing.

Would the "cut-a-hole-in-a-door" type suggestions still be fruitful at
this point? How about "let them fight it out to determine rank"?

We really can't go on like this much longer. There is no good place
for the second set of litterboxes, and I'm constantly stressed
wondering whether Louis has finally figured out how to open the door
behind which Henry lies in wait (Louis has proved ridiculously
inventive.. figuring out the ice machine, the front door, and the
cabinets. Like having a toddler that can jump six feet in the air.
Thank god he doesn't have opposable thumbs...)

Is it a hopeless case? Louis is smaller but ridiculously strong.. he
and Henry could do serious damage to each other, but they're both so
beautiful. Tiger is the world's sweetest cat, and I'd hate if anything
happened to him.

One idea I'd had was to put Henry in a kennel for a week or so, then
start over again. Other than that I fear my only other options are to
ship him out to a no-kill (still a horrible set of living conditions)
or try against odds to find someone to adopt him.

Grasping at straws. Sometimes it really sucks to love cats so much.

(Recent 10 year history since I'm feeling sorry for myself:

1991 Tom and Abbey were adopted from an uplanned litter
1992 Tom was killed by dogs when he snuck out of the house.. while I
uselessly clubbed and shouted at the dogs. I can't imagine any more
horrible experience. Still makes me cry..
2002 Abbey put to sleep with mammary cancer
1995-2001 Roy was discarded by a friend, and was put to sleep after a
gargantuan sarcoma developed on his back
1997-2000 Howard was almost dead at our doorstep.. he was
rehabilitated and three years later died from mysterious FIV-like
immune system disease.
1993-present - Tiger knew all of them except Tom, and treated them
like pals. Adopted from a farm, we took him to see Paul Bunyan. He'd
had a scrape with Howard when a stray wandered by our porch. Howard
had sliced his cornea, but he recovered and the two cats achieved a
grudging truce.)

Now Tiger's set to go into senior-citizenship, and I don't want to
ruin his retirement with an aggressive monster.

Sorry I'm so maudlin.. all the cat introductions we've had have gone
so smoothly. After 10 seconds of growls, Tiger began grooming the
kitten Louis, and they've been close ever since. We've never had to go
to these extremes before.

thanks for any ideas.

BLink
Luvskats00 - 11 Oct 2004 08:07 GMT
I adopted Nellie Belle around October of '03. My sweet Mei Ling has passed away
in August and my Sammy & I missed her greatly. Sammy has always been the alpha
cat and I didn't know if he'd tolerated another companion.  The first several
months with Nellie were extremely tough. I asked for and received advice in all
the cat newsgroups. Half of the advice contradicted the other half..I tried
many things: keeping them separated (in a variety of places), rubbing
towels/toys with each others scents, gradual introductions, etc.) Today, they
sleep together and share favorite spaces.  Granted, not all cats will get
along..but with patience and the right methods, most can get along. You do need
patience, though.  Don't give up..please. I never thought I'd see my two
sleeping together!
Ashley - 11 Oct 2004 10:04 GMT
<big snip>

> Sorry I'm so maudlin.. all the cat introductions we've had have gone
> so smoothly. After 10 seconds of growls, Tiger began grooming the
> kitten Louis, and they've been close ever since. We've never had to go
> to these extremes before.
>
> thanks for any ideas.

Just thoughts follow.

If it were just Tiger fighting it out with Henry, I'd be inclined to find
Henry a new home, as Henry is obviously a younger, fitter and more
streetwise cat and, as you say, you don't want to ruin Tiger's retirement.

However, there's the Louis factor. Louis is obviously a fine young gelding
(I hope!), more than willing and able to take Henry on, only ever going to
get stronger, and very fond of Louis. How would it play out if you isolated
Henry and Louis, hoping like hell that Louis establishes dominance, and take
it from there? If Louis is dominant, he'll protect Tiger when he's around,
and you'll protect Tiger when you're around, and on the whole that will
leave Tiger pretty much protected - and he'll probably be able to cope with
the few times he has to fend for himself.

I've just got back from a week away to find that my two boys have sorted out
their fluctuating dominance thing and so everything's settled down. Now I
just have to remember not to try to pay more attention to the undercat
because, actually, it confuses things and does harm to upset what they've
worked out between themselves.
Betsy - 11 Oct 2004 15:38 GMT
Don't give up.  I've had this scenario with several cats.  They've all
lived!  There have been some hairy (or hairless) moments but things are
settling down for the latest pair.  (I have 11 cats)

It is normal for any cat to get into a fight once started.  All mine run to
see what's going on if another one is being picked on and screaming.  The
boy cats (all neutered) tend to get involved, and the girls just watch!

I'd recommend medication--clomicalm--for the most aggressive cat for awhile.
It is harmless, basically it is an antihistamine.  Talk to the vet about it.
It has worked wonders for my Elmer, who is so aggressive I think he probably
is brain damaged.

> To recap if you haven't read my earlier posts...
>
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>
> BLink
zuzu22@webtv.net - 11 Oct 2004 16:20 GMT
>I'd recommend
>medication--clomicalm--for the most
>aggressive cat for awhile. It is harmless,
>basically it is an antihistamine.

This is incorrect. Clomicalm (clomipramine) is a tricyclic
antidepressant. I don't necessarily disagree that medication *might* be
an option, but if you are going to recommend something you should at
least know what it is.

Megan

                                   
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Betsy - 11 Oct 2004 17:40 GMT
It may now be used and recognized as a tricyclic BUT it was originally an
antihistamine.  I will attempt to document this for you.

Many drugs started out as one thing and were recognized to be useful as
other things.  It is not a very dangerous drug, although it does have some
side effects as all drugs do.

> >I'd recommend
>>medication--clomicalm--for the most
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
Betsy - 11 Oct 2004 17:46 GMT
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/61/5/591?ijkey=5w0b9spE9bOHk

It is derived from an antihistamine (as are many drugs affecting serotonin
uptake, apparently), and still retains some antihistaminic properties, but
it is not specifically an antihistamine at this point, you are right.

Anyway, it is very effective!

> It may now be used and recognized as a tricyclic BUT it was originally an
> antihistamine.  I will attempt to document this for you.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>
>> - W.H. Murray
Mary - 11 Oct 2004 18:13 GMT
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/61/5/591?ijkey=5w0b9spE9bOHk

> It is derived from an antihistamine (as are many drugs affecting serotonin
uptake, apparently), and still retains some antihistaminic properties, but
it is not specifically an antihistamine at this point, you are right.

> Anyway, it is very effective!

This is good to know, as I have a cat that has congestion problems due to
allergies and is also licking her fur off, the latter problem sometimes due
to depression or anxiety. I hesitate to medicate her but will ask my doctor
about this.
Mary - 11 Oct 2004 17:14 GMT
> Don't give up.  I've had this scenario with several cats.  They've all
lived!  There have been some hairy (or hairless) moments but things are
settling down for the latest pair.  (I have 11 cats)

Bless you! That's a lot of cat box, but buckets of fun too, I bet!

> It is normal for any cat to get into a fight once started.  All mine run
to  see what's going on if another one is being picked on and screaming.
The boy cats (all neutered) tend to get involved, and the girls just watch!

> I'd recommend medication--clomicalm--for the most aggressive cat for
awhile. It is harmless, basically it is an antihistamine.  Talk to the vet
about it. It has worked wonders for my Elmer, who is so aggressive I think
he probably  is brain damaged.

Aww, poor Elmer. This is the kind of information I was hoping someone would
post.
Mary - 11 Oct 2004 16:59 GMT
> To recap if you haven't read my earlier posts...
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> fast for us to check them, Henry has been determined to kill Tiger,
> and Louis will join in to defend his big brother.

Have we ever even heard of two indoor cats who were socialized
seriously hurting one another? My experience is with female cats
only, so I guess I am not qualified to help you. But after all you
have been through I think I would be tempted to open the barriers
and let them mix it up, with me standing by with some water. The
girls usually just posture and make noise, retreat to different corners,
then get over it.
Phil P. - 11 Oct 2004 18:11 GMT
> To recap if you haven't read my earlier posts...
>
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>
> thanks for any ideas.

Have you tried the "net method"?  We use this technique in our shelter.  In
my experience, it works more often than not.

Its a slow process - Here's how it works:

First close off a doorway between two rooms with a nylon construction net
(available at Home Depot) or a fishing net or a tennis net so that the cats
can see, smell, and hear each other - and approach each other closely enough
to touch each other through the net when they want to.

Next, switch the cats into the other room every day.

Don't try to force or encourage the cats to approach the net or come close
to each other if they don't want to.

Put the food and water bowls in each room far from the net so the cats can
eat without feeling threatened.   Also, give the cats a cubby hole or
hideout to retreat to feel secure if they want to - a cardboard box in each
room will do.

When you see the cats starting to come closer to the net without showing
fear or aggression, you can start moving the bowls closer to the net a lttle
at a time.  Always let the cats decide for themselves how closely to
approach each another - don't force them.

Leave the net up until the cats start acting friendly towards each when they
come in contact with each other through the net and don't show any signs of
fear or nervousness for several days in a row.

Let me know how it works out.

Good luck.

Phil
 
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