Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2004
Pouch foods
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Paul O. - 03 Oct 2004 20:44 GMT Our cat seems to prefer the pouch food, possibly I think, because they seem to have more juices and that seems to be what he goes after first. As soon as we can take him off the Waltham's Renal LP, a pouch food, I want to find some of the better brands that make a pouch. I've seen Nutro but just one flavor. Are there any others out there? Thanks.
 Signature Paul O. Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats Learning more every day, but still clueless oplholik@hotmail.com
Steve Crane - 04 Oct 2004 15:16 GMT > Our cat seems to prefer the pouch food, possibly I think, because they seem > to have more juices and that seems to be what he goes after first. As soon > as we can take him off the Waltham's Renal LP, a pouch food, I want to find > some of the better brands that make a pouch. I've seen Nutro but just one > flavor. Are there any others out there? Thanks. Paul O, I'm assuming your cat is on the Waltham R/C Renal LP due to renal failure? If so moving over to a Nutro pouch would be a VERY VERY bag thing to do. Please be sure and check with your vet before you make such a move. Managing and controlling renal failure requires very low levels of phosphorus, sodium, and much elevated levels of N3 fatty acids - none of which would be true of Nutro products. The Renal LP product contains 0.14 mgs of phos per 100 grams. A typical Nutro product might contain up to 10 times that amount.
Dragon - 04 Oct 2004 20:02 GMT > > Our cat seems to prefer the pouch food, possibly I think, because they seem > > to have more juices and that seems to be what he goes after first. As soon [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > product contains 0.14 mgs of phos per 100 grams. A typical Nutro > product might contain up to 10 times that amount. We have a cat suffering from chronic renal failure ourselves, and if you frequent any of the support groups for such kitties you will see that what to feed them is a point of *high* controversy. Many people feel that the prescription foods manufactured for CRF cats have too little protein, too many grains and by-products to be truly healthy for a cat.
In addition many CRF cats have a low to non-existant appetite. It is believed that it is better for a cat to eat *something*, even if it is not prescription food, than to eat nothing at all. And, many many CRF cats hate the prescription food they're supposed to eat.
So, while I agree with your advice to check with the vet, in the end each owner must sift through all the conflicting information out there and make a decision which seems to fit their situation the best.
dragon
Paul O. - 05 Oct 2004 03:35 GMT >> > Our cat seems to prefer the pouch food, possibly I think, because they >> > seem [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> failure? If so moving over to a Nutro pouch would be a VERY VERY bag >> thing to do. Snip, Snip
> We have a cat suffering from chronic renal failure ourselves, and if > you frequent any of the support groups for such kitties you will see [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > dragon Our cat has learned to like the Renal LP with some boiled chicken mixed in the wet food. Gradually putting in less and less chicken. Seems like anything to do with foods has a high controversy. What he's eating now he's doing real well on. Thanks.
 Signature Paul O. Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats Learning more every day, but still clueless oplholik@hotmail.com
Steve Crane - 05 Oct 2004 21:20 GMT > We have a cat suffering from chronic renal failure ourselves, and if > you frequent any of the support groups for such kitties you will see > that what to feed them is a point of *high* controversy. Many people > feel that the prescription foods manufactured for CRF cats have too > little protein, too many grains and by-products to be truly healthy > for a cat. I would certainly agree that it is much more critical for a CRF cat to eat than not to eat. While disagreement over grains etc may exist in internet sites, there is no such disagreement in the scientific world. There is not a single Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition nor of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine which supports the current carbophobic hypothesis in CRF cats. The issue of excess phosphorus is totally undebateable by anyone in the small animal clincial nutrition field. None of the renal failure specialists and board certified internal medicine diplomates believe otherwise. There is some debate over just how much protein should be decreased and at what point the protein provided is sufficient. In the case of the Nutro products the phos levels would be off the scale.
Paul O. - 06 Oct 2004 00:46 GMT > I would certainly agree that it is much more critical for a CRF cat to > eat than not to eat. While disagreement over grains etc may exist in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > decreased and at what point the protein provided is sufficient. In the > case of the Nutro products the phos levels would be off the scale. Please excuse my densess(and spelling?) but are you refering to whether or not that excess phosphorus is bad for a CRF cat? Seems I've read before in this group that there was no substantial evidence to prove that was so. Then again I've read here that it was. This is something I'm going to have to get into with the vet if in fact our cat is CRF, but I don't recall that term being brought up. Thanks for your help.
 Signature Paul O. Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats Learning more every day, but still clueless oplholik@hotmail.com
Steve Crane - 06 Oct 2004 14:03 GMT > Please excuse my densess(and spelling?) but are you refering to whether or > not that excess phosphorus is bad for a CRF cat? Seems I've read before in > this group that there was no substantial evidence to prove that was so. Then > again I've read here that it was. This is something I'm going to have to get > into with the vet if in fact our cat is CRF, but I don't recall that term > being brought up. Thanks for your help. Below is a Grade 1 Evidence Based clinical trial. CRF cats that ate a protein and phosphorus restricted food lived more than twice as long as those that did not. Not contained within the abstract below was an additional important piece. Cats fed the renal failure diet had less than half the number of uremic crisis and the time between uremic crisis was greatly longer. There's a huge difference between peer reviewed published grade 1 evidence based medicine and the latest internet spawned hypothesis. Nobody in thier right mind would suggest phosphorus is not acutely a part of the issue with CRF kitties.
J Small Anim Pract. 2000 Jun;41(6):235-42. Related Articles, Links Survival of cats with naturally occurring chronic renal failure: effect of dietary management.
Elliott J, Rawlings JM, Markwell PJ, Barber PJ. Royal Veterinary College, London.
Fifty cats with naturally occurring stable chronic renal failure (CRF) were entered into a prospective study on the effect of feeding a veterinary diet restricted in phosphorus and protein with or without an intestinal phosphate binding agent on their survival from initial diagnosis. Twenty-nine cats accepted the veterinary diet, whereas compliance (due to limited intake by the cats or owner resistance to diet change) was not achieved in the remaining 21. At diagnosis, both groups of cats were matched in terms of age, bodyweight, plasma creatinine, phosphate, potassium and parathyroid hormone (PTH) concentrations, packed cell volume and urine specific gravity. Feeding the veterinary diet was associated with a reduction in plasma phosphate and urea concentrations and prevented the increase in plasma PTH concentrations seen in cats not receiving the diet. Cats fed the veterinary diet survived for longer when compared with those that were not (median survival times of 633 versus 264 days). These data suggest that feeding a diet specifically formulated to meet the needs of cats with CRF, together with phosphate binding drugs if required, controls hyperphosphataemia and secondary renal hyperparathyroidism, and is associated with an increased survival time.
Steve Crane - 06 Oct 2004 21:51 GMT > Please excuse my densess(and spelling?) but are you refering to whether or > not that excess phosphorus is bad for a CRF cat? Seems I've read before in > this group that there was no substantial evidence to prove that was so. Then > again I've read here that it was. This is something I'm going to have to get > into with the vet if in fact our cat is CRF, but I don't recall that term > being brought up. Thanks for your help. Paul, I am assuming you have a CRF cat because the only indication (application) that Royal Canin gives for the diet is for renal failure. It is certainly possible that your vet has detected some other issue and has decided the nutrient values in the LP pouch meet the needs of some other disease. It may be s/he is considering liver disease and renal failure product has similar nutrient profiles as that of an hepatic diet. As always, your vet is the best person to get accurate information from.
Paul O. - 06 Oct 2004 23:31 GMT > Paul, > I am assuming you have a CRF cat because the only indication [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that of an hepatic diet. As always, your vet is the best person to get > accurate information from. Thanks for your info Steve, appreciate it. Will find out for sure next vet visit just what the problem was. Been long enough now since this started that I really don't remember. It started I think with a hairball in the intestines. The cat stopped eating and was very constipated. It was a while before he started eating regularly again and we were forcing anything down him in the meantime. I guess something showed up in the blood test concerning the liver at which time the vet put him on this diet which the vet said would help the liver, I just don't remember it being CRF, but an infection possibly. But at any rate I think the constipation started all this. Doing real well now tho with the eating. Have been giving him the hair ball treatment and apparently no more probs there, no more vomiting, coughing or any signs of hairballs. Thanks again.
 Signature Paul O. Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats Learning more every day, but still clueless oplholik@hotmail.com
Paul O. - 05 Oct 2004 03:27 GMT >> Our cat seems to prefer the pouch food, possibly I think, because they >> seem [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > failure? If so moving over to a Nutro pouch would be a VERY VERY bag > thing to do. Snip, Snip Thanks, will be sure to check on that. I don't believe it was renal failure, but there was something with the liver that the vet said this would help. Have a check up next month and will refresh my memory with him.
 Signature Paul O. Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats Learning more every day, but still clueless oplholik@hotmail.com
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