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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / September 2004vaccinations question
The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's office and they checked off what the cats should be going in for: annual exam and under vaccinations, they checked off the box marked "rhinotracheitis, calici, panleukopenia". Are these absoltely neccessary? I've never questioned any shots my cats have received, but I know I've seen some messages posted about shots that aren't really needed. These cats are in a bookstore and they do interact with different people all the time. Well, Harriet does. Stinky mostly hides in the basement. Harriet also comes in contact with dogs, since we allow them in the store (accompanied by an owner, of course). -- Liz > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled > for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Liz Panleukopenia = distemper, a very nasty disease. I honestly don't remember if this (your list above) is one of those 3-in-1 vaccines, or if any of them are separate from each other (I've asked at the vet's before, & been given the answers, but can never remember!), but I'd personally opt in for their protection against distemper. Unless the vet can give a 'makes sense' reason not to. Cathy > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled > for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Liz It's a combination shot, so it isn't like they are getting a bunch of shots. They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. > > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled > > for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > It's a combination shot, Ah - there's my answer. ;-) Cathy so it isn't like they are getting a bunch of shots. > They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. It is typically called the 4-in-1 shot.  SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "Karen Chuplis" <kchuplis@alltel.net> wrote in message news:BD74D6B3.4209B%> It's a combination shot, so it isn't like they are getting a bunch of shots. > They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. 3 in 1 actually > It is typically called the 4-in-1 shot. > >> They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. Nope. They call it 4-in-1. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com >3 in 1 actually > >> It is typically called the 4-in-1 shot. >> >>> They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. > Nope. They call it 4-in-1. Only you would call a trivalent vaccine a "4-in-1". The FVRCP is a "3-in-1". FVRCP = 1. (F)eline (V)iral (R)hinotracheitis, 2. (C)alicivirus, 3. (P)arvovirus (or Panleukopenia). That's 3. That should be easy for you to count - you only have to use one hand. The FVRCP is a 3-in-1. That's why its called a "trivalent" vaccine... A 4-in- can include chlamydia - which the side effects of the vaccine are as bad if not worse than Chlamydiosis itself. A 4-in-on can include rabies or FeLV in addition to FVRCP. > >3 in 1 actually > > > >> It is typically called the 4-in-1 shot. > >> > >>> They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. Okay, what 4 diseases? > Nope. They call it 4-in-1. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> >>>> They can pick up that stuff mighty easy. That is what the FVRCPC is called. It is for the following: Feline Viral Rhinotrocheitis/Calicivirus/ Panleukopenia/Chlamydia. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Okay, what 4 diseases? > That is what the FVRCPC is called. It is for the following: Feline Viral > Rhinotrocheitis/Calicivirus/ Panleukopenia/Chlamydia. The Chlamydia vaccine is not commonly used anymore; its given strictly in high-risk situations because the adverse effects are often more severe than the disease itself. >That is what the FVRCPC is called. It is for the following: Feline Viral >Rhinotrocheitis/Calicivirus/ Panleukopenia/Chlamydia. Yes, it is, but everyone else was talking about the three in one vaccination called FVRCP. Why would you decide to add chlamydia, which as Phil explained is not routinely recommended and is not considered a core vaccine, and then tell everyone else they are wrong? In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Elizabeth Blake" <poodlebone@NOSPAMearthlink.net> artfully composed this message within <news:cinn3l$5q0$1@domitilla.aioe.org> on 20 Sep 2004: > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual > checkup scheduled for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Liz I would say yes, if the cat is healthy. The 3 you mention are what make up the FV-RCP (FV for Feline viral/virus). There are many questions about the interval of these, though. Many factors are involved such as age of the cats, vaccination history, health, etc etc. I've got my vet to agree to every three years but we're still in disagreement with my youngest since she is healthy and my vet thinks that in the young years they should be vaccinated yearly. I don't agree with this from what I've read but we have until next year to come to an understanding. My allergy boy is on every third year and maybe less depending on how he's doing in 2 years when they're due again. Rhinotracheitis, calici, panleuk are all respiratory bugs that can be tranferred by you if you happen to be in an environment where a virus has come off of a cat. Panleuk can live outside of a host for a long time (a year or more according to vets I've asked) so the risk for picking up the virus is high; whether they're immune to it after the first series of shots as a kitten is what is in debate. SignatureCheryl That would be the FVRCPC. Those shots are necessary. The only one that isn't is the FELV & FIV if the cats are indoor cats. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup > scheduled [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > Liz > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled > for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Liz Those three are the 'rcp' of the fvrcp vaccine. From what I've recently been told by an expert in the pathobiological field, the fvrcp vaccine is usually given annually, but probably needs to be given no more than every three years. Cat immune systems are as individual as humans, but from what the lecturer said, privately owned animals (as opposed to shelter animals) are probably protected pretty much for life after the initial vaccine and the booster are given. Still, it's something to discuss with your vet. Keep in mind that your store cats are going to have more contact with possible sources of disease or virii than the average house cat, so it may be a good idea to continue to vaccinate at least every three years, if not annually. I heard from a rescue group that a cat or kitten (6 months and above) given the 4-in-1 shot does not need a booster as some vets suggest since it is effective for at least a year. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Those three are the 'rcp' of the fvrcp vaccine. From what I've recently > been [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > good > idea to continue to vaccinate at least every three years, if not annually. In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Cat Protector" <catprotector@cox.net> artfully composed this message within <news:f8L3d.47553$OZ6.28018@okepread06> on 20 Sep 2004: > I heard from a rescue group that a cat or kitten (6 months and > above) given the 4-in-1 shot does not need a booster as some > vets suggest since it is effective for at least a year. Good point. I actually had a vet who wanted to give Shadow a booster 4 weeks after his last FVRCP shot since he'd had a lapse when he was ill. This was a full grown adult cat of 10 years at the time, and he'd been up to date with shots (too many from all I've read lately) up until then. He had a bad reaction to that last shot, so there was no way he was going in for another 4 weeks later. It should be noted that yearly (or every 3 years for that matter) *are* boosters. SignatureCheryl >From: Cheryl jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com >Good point. I actually had a vet who wanted to give Shadow a booster >4 weeks after his last FVRCP shot since he'd had a lapse when he was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >no way he was going in for another 4 weeks later. It should be noted >that yearly (or every 3 years for that matter) *are* boosters. Fact is there is no scientific proof that boosters actually "boost" or enhance immunity. Here's a study that was done on duration of immunity: http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/vaccines_7year.htm Reprinted from the American Journal of Veterinary Research, May 1999 - Vol. 60 No. 5 Long-term immunity in cats vaccinated with an inactivated trivalent vaccine Fred W. Scott, DVM, PhD, and Cordell M. Geissinger, BS Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > Those three are the 'rcp' of the fvrcp vaccine. From what I've recently been > told by an expert in the pathobiological field, the fvrcp vaccine is usually [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sources of disease or virii than the average house cat, so it may be a good > idea to continue to vaccinate at least every three years, if not annually. Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess Stinky & Harriet will be getting their shot tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that every year they've gone, they've gotten at least one shot. I remember that last year I even asked about the shots, and the vet said the one they were getting (rabies? not sure) was given every X years (can't remember if it was 3 or 5). I should have the old postcards in their file so I'll see what they were given in the last few years. -- Liz If you haven't gotten the rabies shot then I'd get that too. It usually lasts three years. SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess Stinky & Harriet will be getting > their shot tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that every year they've gone, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > Liz >Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess Stinky & Harriet will be getting >their shot tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that every year they've gone, they've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >old postcards in their file so I'll see what they were given in the last few >years. The current recommended interval for the FVRCP vaccination you mentioned is every three years after the initial set of kitten shots. Rabies intervals depend on local law--some require every year, some may be every three years. The FVR stands for feline viral rhinotracheitis, the C stands for calcivirus, and the P stands for panleukopenia, also known as feline distemper. This is why it's called a 3 in 1 vaccination--as usual, CP is mistaken. The 3 in 1 is generally recommended for all cats as these upper respiratory diseases are highly contagious and often fatal. <snipped> : Those three are the 'rcp' of the fvrcp vaccine. From what I've recently been : told by an expert in the pathobiological field, the fvrcp vaccine is usually [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : sources of disease or virii than the average house cat, so it may be a good : idea to continue to vaccinate at least every three years, if not annually. True. When my cat was dying of a heart disease, his annual vaccines came due. As I feed feral cats on the deck in my back yard, I was especially concerned about distemper because it's airborne. The cardiologist told me that Maxx would be just fine skipping his annual shots - that there was evidence that a cat only needs "annual" shots no sooner than every 3 years. Even with the unvaccinated ferals (only 2 or 3) feeding in my yard. Of course, the OP cats are more at risk by being more exposed than the average house cat is due to the volumn of people entering the store. I'd err on the side of caution and get them vaccinated. SignatureLinda --- -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. The FVRCP vaccine (Feline Viral Rhinotracheitis Calicivirus and Panleukopenia (aka feline distemper)) is an "all in one" vaccination. Considering your cats have contact with many people who are coming in off the street, I would certainly get this vaccine. With the volume of people coming into a public store, anyone could be carrying these diseases in on their shoes or clothes. > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup > scheduled [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > Liz Whether you should vaccinate depends entirely on when these cats last received vaccines. The protocol is now every *3* years for both rabies and distemper, and vaccinating annually is unnecessary and potentially harmful. Even if your cats are exposed to a lot of different people, the efficacy of the vaccine will remain the same so there is no increased risk that would require more frequent vaccination. A study done on the distemper vaccine showed it was still effective 7 years after the vaccine was given, so doing vaccines every three years is plenty. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Whether you should vaccinate depends entirely on when these cats last > received vaccines. The protocol is now every *3* years for both rabies > and distemper, and vaccinating annually is unnecessary and potentially > harmful. In what way is it harmful? I'm interested because where I live, when you go on holiday and you put your cat in the cattery (there are no pet sitters that I know of), the cattery insists that the cat to be boarded has to have had a yearly booster or they can't stay. I am a bit worried now, I thought I was doing the right thing by taking her for her shots every year, but maybe not... Jeannie > In what way is it harmful? I'm interested because where I live, when you go > on holiday and you put your cat in the cattery (there are no pet sitters > that I know of), the cattery insists that the cat to be boarded has to have > had a yearly booster or they can't stay. I am a bit worried now, I thought I > was doing the right thing by taking her for her shots every year, but maybe > not... You may find this an interesting read. http://www.avma.org/vafstf/default.asp Signature-- ~kaeli~ With her marriage, she got a new name and a dress. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace In what way is it harmful? Here's one link that addresses this: http://www.adoredbeast.com/vaccines.shtml There's lots more. Go to google and type in vaccines cats harmful and you'll find a lot of information on the subject. If you decide you don't like the cattery's policy, maybe you can find a catsitter that can come to your home once or twice a day while you're away. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > In what way is it harmful? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There's lots more. Go to google and type in vaccines cats harmful and > you'll find a lot of information on the subject. Thanks, I will do some reading... > If you decide you don't like the cattery's policy, maybe you can find a > catsitter that can come to your home once or twice a day while you're > away. This is the problem unfortunately, pet sitters just aren't that common in the UK, possibly in the cities, but definately not where I live. Jeannie the cattery insists that the cat to be boarded has to have > had a yearly booster or they can't stay. Yearly "boosters" only boost the vaccine mfgs' and vets' income. Here's a question to ask your cattery: Doncha think the antibodies produced from the first vaccine will neutralize the antigens of the second, "booster" vaccine? Its the same principal as maternal antibodies neutralizing kitten vaccines. > Here's a question to ask your cattery: Doncha think the antibodies > produced from the first vaccine will neutralize the antigens of the second, > "booster" vaccine? Its the same principal as maternal antibodies > neutralizing kitten vaccines. Then why do vaccines wear off, even in humans? I've been wondering about this very topic. They made me get a tetanus shot when I cut myself because it had been more than a certain amount of time (I think it was 3 years??) since my last one. Same for rabies, or so I hear. It's only good for so long, even in people. When I had my dog boarded, they made me get her the Bordatella vaccination because it had been a year since her last. They said they make you get them every 6 months! Do the antibodies just go away if they aren't needed or something? Signature-- ~kaeli~ Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >Date: 9/22/2004 4:25 PM Eastern >Then why do vaccines wear off, even in humans? > >I've been wondering about this very topic. What makes you think they wear off? There is no scientific evidence that boostering has any effect. Dr. Ronald Schultz believes immunity probably lasts 7 years and maybe even for a lifetime. I posted a link to a study. Maybe you missed it? http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/vaccines_7year.htm Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > >Date: 9/22/2004 4:25 PM Eastern [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What makes you think they wear off? Don't tetanus shots, for ex., need to be given every 10 years for effectiveness? Cathy There is no scientific evidence that > boostering has any effect. Dr. Ronald Schultz believes immunity probably lasts > 7 years and maybe even for a lifetime. I posted a link to a study. Maybe you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > > >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > > >Date: 9/22/2004 4:25 PM Eastern [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Cathy Hi, These days in Australia it is recommended that if you have had your tetanus course and boosters every 10 years until around 30 (I think) that you are then protected for life and don't need further boosters. Most play it safe and give a booster if someone has a risky event, but otherwise not. Most human vaccines are not repeatedly boosted once one has had the primary course, unless the patient is immunocompromised, or very old, or in a high risk group. Of course some vaccines' immunogenic response may wear off, and there are others such as the flu vax which change every year according to what strains are about the place. I was trained in immunology/molecular biology before I became a medical doctor and I was always surprised at the frequency of animal vaccinations - I didn't think their immune systems could be so ineffectual compared to humans' or else animals would have been wiped out long ago by disease! But when I did 1st yr vet (prior to the immunol switch) one of our lecturers pointed out that a lot of current veterinary practice is financially motivated - there was an example of a vaccine developed against a common worm in dogs - it gave lifelong protection so you didn't need to give worming tabs every 3 months. He said it failed dismally because the vets wouldn't recommend it - they wanted the income from selling the inferior oral medication every 3 months. My vet says he encourages regular shots more to encourage the annual health check-up rather than from the immunity angle. Hmmmm Catherine > There is no scientific evidence that > > boostering has any effect. Dr. Ronald Schultz believes immunity probably [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > >Date: 9/22/2004 4:25 PM Eastern [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/vaccines_7year.htm I did indeed miss that. Thanks. But vaccines DO wear off - we just don't know exactly how long for each one. Especially because it seems that it varies per individual. I found these interesting articles. http://www.rense.com/general25/pox.htm http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/vac.html http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?article=576 Signature-- ~kaeli~ Is it possible to be totally partial? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >>From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >>Date: 9/22/2004 4:25 PM Eastern [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/vaccines_7year.htm You seem to have missed the conclusions published in the study in your link, recommending 3 year intervals for vaccine. The study only showed immunity lasting 7 years for one of the three viruses in the combo. The other two showed significant decline in immunity at 3 to 4 years. Only nine vaccinated cats in the duration of the study (and 15 for part of the study) is a very small study sample on which to assume that most cats would retain immunity to panleukopenia as long as those particular cats did. As the cats used were apparently blood relatives from a lab colony, they may or may not have had longer immunity than average. Having seen a friend's not-yet-vaccinated kitten suffer and die horribly from one of the viruses in the FVRCP (although I don't remember which virus it was), I don't ever want to see a cat go through that again. I would be comfortable with waiting 3 years, especially as they were vaccinated yearly when they were young, but I personally would not chance ceasing the vaccinations entirely. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > > Here's a question to ask your cattery: Doncha think the antibodies > > produced from the first vaccine will neutralize the antigens of the second, > > "booster" vaccine? Its the same principal as maternal antibodies > > neutralizing kitten vaccines. > > Then why do vaccines wear off, even in humans? Who says vaccines wear off? Titers don't accurately measure immunity... or suscptibility... or even infection. When was the last time you had your polio vaccine boosted? > I've been wondering about this very topic. > > They made me get a tetanus shot when I cut myself because it had been more > than a certain amount of time (I think it was 3 years??) 7 - 10 years. since my last one. > Same for rabies, or so I hear. It's only good for so long, even in people. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do the antibodies just go away if they aren't needed or something? Not exactly. When the body is challenged with a virus for which the cat was vaccinated against, the memory cells tell the body to start producing antibodies again. Phil > > Then why do vaccines wear off, even in humans? > > Who says vaccines wear off? Titers don't accurately measure immunity... or > suscptibility... or even infection. > > When was the last time you had your polio vaccine boosted? Some human vaccines are supposed to have boosters, including Hepatitis, Tetanus, Influenza, and Pneumonia. Signature-- ~kaeli~ If you drink, don't park. Accidents cause people. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> > Then why do vaccines wear off, even in humans? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Some human vaccines are supposed to have boosters, including Hepatitis, > Tetanus, Influenza, and Pneumonia. Even when a vaccine, or having the disease as a child, *usually* provides lifelong immunity, there's no guarantee that it will for every single person (or cat). Although I had rubella badly enough to be hospitalized for it when I was 3, I had no antibodies to rubella when I had the blood test required before marriage in Massachusetts. I also had chicken pox more than once as a child. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." Although I had rubella badly enough to > be hospitalized for it when I was 3, I had no antibodies to rubella > when I had the blood test First of all, a negative titer doesn't mean "zero". Different labs have different "cut off" limits. IOW, titers below or above a certain dilution are considered negative. Second, titers aren't reliable for determining immunity, infection, or susceptibility. Third, a negative or even a zero titer doesn't mean you have no immunity to a particular antigen. If you were exposed to the rubella virus a second time, your immune system (memory cells) would damn sure "remember" (immunologic memory) the virus and begin producing antibodies again - even faster and to higher levels than during the first exposure. That's called an "anamnestic response". > The two cats at work, Stinky & Harriet, have their annual checkup scheduled > for tomorrow (Tuesday). I just looked at the postcard I got from the vet's > office and they checked off what the cats should be going in for: annual > exam and under vaccinations, they checked off the box marked > "rhinotracheitis, calici, panleukopenia". Are these absoltely neccessary? Rhino & calici - *maybe* since they can be carried on clothing and can infect cats of any age - but certainly no sooner than three years apart... I'm not entirely convinced cats should be revaccinated at all. Parvo - no. The initial kitten series are probably good for life. I can't remember when (if) I ever saw an adult cat with clinical panleukopenia. Phil |
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