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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2004Update: Kitten with seizures (PSS)
First the good news: Ana has been doing very well since coming home from the emergency vet. She's playful, energetic, eats, drinks, and eliminates fine. Now the bad news: They ran the bile acids test and her levels were very high. The shelter vet believes she probably does have PSS. She ended up not having the ultrasound because the neither the shelter vet nor the emergency vet had a machine able to detect the shunt in a kitten. The shelter vet's opinion is that she should be PTS. She did not think the surgery was a good option, not only because of the expense, but she said it doesn't have that high of a success rate. The kitten coordinator at the shelter does not think she needs to be PTS right away, and is basically leaving her care up to me, although any costly procedures/tests still need to be run by shelter management. Obviously, this makes her unadoptable to the general public. I don't know what to do. I need to learn everything I can about this problem. Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life?  Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com I swear there was just an araticle about this last year in cat fancy. I could also swear there is some way of helping manage it with diet. However, that is just a measure of giving an unknown amount of time to the kitty. So she would definitely be special needs. If I were you, I think I'd be tempted to write Tufts or Cornell and see if there is any info to be had from them. I think Tufts does a "consult by fax" for a fee. Poor little Ana. I hope that you can figure something out. I hope others here have suggestions. I'd tell you to post at alt.med.vet, but we all know they hardlly ever have ideas on cat health. Karen > First the good news: > Ana has been doing very well since coming home from the emergency vet. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > problem. Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages > it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? > First the good news: > Ana has been doing very well since coming home from the emergency vet. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to detect the shunt in a kitten. The shelter vet's opinion is that she > should be PTS. ...even though the cat is playful, energetic, eats, drinks, and eliminates fine, and might be able to be managed medically? This vet would last about 30 seconds in my shelter's clinic. No no no. A PSS isn't necessarily a death sentence. Some cats can be managed medically with special low-protein diets like k/d or g/d - coupled with lactulose to draw ammonia outta the blood and trap it in the colon where its excreted with the feces. You can also supplement the diet with psyllium - which works something like lactulose to get rid of ammonia and might allow the cat to tolerate a little more protein. Supplementation with arginine might help, also. Arginine converts ammonia to urea. You can also use certain antibiotics to reduce bacteria that generate ammonia. Use phenobarbital for seizures, don't use benzodiazepines like valium to control HE seizures. Thery're not only not very effective, they could make things worse. Endogenous benzodiazepines might be contributing factors to HE - adding exogenous benzodiazepines would probably have a synergistic effect. Euthanasia is a last resort. If the cat isn't suffering or in pain, putting the cat to sleep is nothing less than *slaughter* not euthanasia. She did not think the surgery was a good option, not only > because of the expense, but she said it doesn't have that high of a success > rate. IOW, she's not very experienced in shunt ligations... The kitten coordinator at the shelter does not think she needs to be > PTS right away, and is basically leaving her care up to me, although any > costly procedures/tests still need to be run by shelter management. The ammonia levels in the blood are the most important to monitor. Try contacting veterinary schools in your area. > Obviously, this makes her unadoptable to the general public. Not if you can find an adoptive with a heart as big as yours! > I don't know what to do. I need to learn everything I can about this > problem. Google "hepatic encephalopathy, cats". Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages > it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? I don't know. Every cat is different. I would do everything I could and just hope for the best. If I could buy the kitten a few years she otherwise wouldn't have had, I could live with that. I wish you the very best of luck. Keep the faith. Phil Signature"A kitten, in the animal kingdom, is like a rosebud in a garden" --unknown >From: "Phil P." phil@maxshouse.com >You can also supplement the diet with >psyllium - which works something like lactulose to get rid of ammonia and >might allow the cat to tolerate a little more protein. If you decide to use psyllium, please be careful: "SIDE EFFECTS (Possible adverse effects and/or overdose effects) Allergic reactions, occasional flatulence (tympanites), rare cases of hypersensitivity and anaphylaxis. WARNING The seeds should not be ground or chewed, since they release a pigment that deposits in renal tubules. Diabetics requiring insulin may need to reduce the dose insulin. If diarrhea persists for more than 3-4 days, a doctor should be consulted. Do not exceed 8-10 days of treatment. Phytobezoars (food-ball that forms blocking the GI tract) may form if not taken with enough liquid. Due to the bulk-forming fibers and mucilage found in this material, ingesting it without adequate fluid may cause it to swell, blocking the esophagus, and cause choking. This material should be administered with at least 8 ounces of water or other fluid (taken without enough fluid may cause choking)." www.nutritionfocus.com/nutrition_supplementation/herbs/psyllium_seeds.html Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > ...even though the cat is playful, energetic, eats, drinks, and eliminates > fine, and might be able to be managed medically? This vet would last about > 30 seconds in my shelter's clinic. Well, we are not a no-kill shelter, so I know she's looking at in a "big picture" kind of way. We have so many perfectly healthy kittens that are waiting for homes. Overall, she's a decent vet and I like her, although she does tend to be a little too textbook sometimes. But, she donates her time to vet our animals. > No no no. A PSS isn't necessarily a death sentence. Some cats can be > managed medically with special low-protein diets like k/d or g/d - coupled [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > might allow the cat to tolerate a little more protein. Supplementation with > arginine might help, also. Arginine converts ammonia to urea. What would the dangers be of having a kitten on a low-protein diet? Would that cause other complications? Right now, she's been eating my adult cats' food, which the dry is 33% protein and the canned 10%. > You can also use certain antibiotics to reduce bacteria that generate > ammonia. She's on Clavamox right now for her URI, which she seems to be mostly over. > Use phenobarbital for seizures, don't use benzodiazepines like valium to > control HE seizures. Thery're not only not very effective, they could make > things worse. Endogenous benzodiazepines might be contributing factors to > HE - adding exogenous benzodiazepines would probably have a synergistic > effect. I'll have to ask the vet about dispensing that. > Euthanasia is a last resort. If the cat isn't suffering or in pain, putting > the cat to sleep is nothing less than *slaughter* not euthanasia. My plan is to keep her comfortable and happy as long as possible. If she appears to be suffering, then it's time. > The ammonia levels in the blood are the most important to monitor. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not if you can find an adoptive with a heart as big as yours! My husband and I are considering adopting her so we can manage her care ourselves, but we are also concerned about the financial end of it. I took my cat Dash (RB) to Tufts when she was very ill and they were great, although quite expensive. > I don't know. Every cat is different. I would do everything I could and > just hope for the best. If I could buy the kitten a few years she otherwise [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Keep the faith. Thanks for all your help on this. When I Googled "liver shunt cat", most of what I found is as soon as a kitten is dx'ed with it, they are euthanized. :-( I'm glad to see that's not the only option. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com << My husband and I are considering adopting her so we can manage her care ourselves, but we are also concerned about the financial end of it. >> Oh, I really hope you do, that would be so nice, and I'm sure the time you spend with her, whether it be years or only months, would be extremely rewarding, though very sad in the end, for you. I've often heard that the ones that are ill like that seem to "know" somehow so they are even sweeter and more loving. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) You can get a good lifespan for a PSS cat. So long as the toxins are taken care of early on and consistently everything will be almost the same as a 'normal' cat. MAGI was rescued at two years so the condition was ongoing all that time and she was very frail and weak as well as neurologically damaged. But she has 'landed on her paws' with us and we'll do everything to ensure she flourishes. At first she was a bit temperamental but epilepsy will do that. However, as she has come to know us and realise we do care for and will protect her she has become more affectionate. She is even following us around and coming to bed with us which she never really did before. So I think you are right that they do realise that all is not well with themselves and become more attached. Iain >Oh, I really hope you do, that would be so nice, and I'm sure the time you >spend with her, whether it be years or only months, would be extremely >rewarding, though very sad in the end, for you. I've often heard that the ones >that are ill like that seem to "know" somehow so they are even sweeter and more >loving. >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Hi, Hi, Yes, this is my cat MAGI who has the PSS problem. I have just read your message else I would have replied earlier than this. Sorry for the delay. I did some research when we discoverd she had PSS and foumnd around 17 interventions which could be used to treat her. Some more practical than others. MAGI is a two year old but actually looked much younger when we got her as a rescue cat. She is gradually flourishing and putting on weight. I have posted some pics of MAGI to the photo newsgroup we use here. The first and most important thing is your cat will be fine! You just have to pay a little bit more attention than usual to her diet. The PSS has an adverse effect on the liver's ability to do it's job so you just work around it. Normally the liver is used to filter and detoxify the blood coming in from the portal intestinal tract through the hepatic circulation. I'm being very brief here. A shunt or an additional blood vessel (which should not be there) links the intestinal circulation directly to the main circulation and bypasses the liver completely. There are two types of shunt one is extrahepatic and occurs just prior to the liver and the other is intrahepatic and actually cuts through the liver but without the benefit of the liver's normal action. Check out http://www.emedicine.com/med/byname/portal-systemic-encephalopathy.htm I would always have imagined the former would be easier to operate on. Protein is a large part of the problem as this leads to the creation of undetoxified ammonia. Being very brief again. This is what is toxic to a cat with PSS as well in addition to bacterial by-products of digestion. Seizures are a big problem but controlled very well with phenobarbitone 1/4 tab x 2 daily which equates to a dose of 3.75mg x 2 daily. Each dose is separated by 12 hours. The 1/4 tab is tiny and we usually give it to her in a little bit of ham/turkey/chicken with a dab of double cream. She loves it but is smart enough to detect the tab and spit it out so we have to give her more treat! Not too often though!!! She only ever has seizures now when the humidity changes and goes over 42%. We stay in London, UK and in the summer it is very hot and humid. For us as we are native Scots and are more used to very short summers and cold rain!!! MAGI is a lively cat but she does tire easily and has neurological problems. She has these copper-coloured iris which have abated somewhat to a more brown colour. Her walking posture is also a bit odd and her paws stick out sideways somewhat. If you use LACTULOSE (you can get it at the chemist) - tell them its for your cat else they'll think YOUR constipated. The lactulose speeds food through her digestive system as well as absorbing some of the damaging by-products of protein digestion. Amino acids L-Arginine & L-Ornithine convert protein by-products to harmless substances. Incidently, these are also precursers to growth hormone which will possibly be helpfull. Probiotics like lactobacillus acidophilus will also protect your cat. I make especial use of a product called LIFE EXTENSION CAT MIX from www.lef.org which contains good amounts of nutrient support for a cat with this PSS problem. As I say, ours is flourishing. I had written a large amount of notes for myself on this subject. I'll look these out and give you more information but the above treatments we have found are the best for her. This reply is being done quickly to help you out asap. As I say your cat will be fine so do not fret. Have you any pics of your cat? It's always good to see pics of the pets being discussed on these cat newsgroups. Iain >First the good news: >Ana has been doing very well since coming home from the emergency vet. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >problem. Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages >it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > Hi, > Yes, this is my cat MAGI who has the PSS problem. I have just read > your message else I would have replied earlier than this. Sorry for > the delay. I did some research when we discoverd she had PSS and > foumnd around 17 interventions which could be used to treat her. Some > more practical than others. Thank you *very* much for your reply. It helps me immensely to know that there is a PSS cat out there who is having a good life. Officially, the rescue league hasn't decided whether or not to cover the cost of her vetting. If they don't, I'll do it myself. It doesn't seem like it will be all that expensive. She just started the lactulose today, and so far is eating my adult cats' lite food. The vet is consulting with a nutritionist. I'm a little worried about putting her on too low of a protein diet while she is still a young kitten. The vet didn't say anything about putting her on phenobarbitone. I'll ask about that next time I see her. Here's some more pictures of Ana: http://www.snittens.com/ana.html http://www.snittens.com/ana2.html Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com > MAGI is a two year old but actually looked much younger when we got > her as a rescue cat. She is gradually flourishing and putting on [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Yes, this is the problem. She needs the protein to grow but is harmed by the by products like ammonia and bacteria. However we have found that if we keep sharp with the lactulose and the ammonia absorbing supplements then MAGI does fine. The vet said her stools should be softly formed but sometimes she still kicks out these hard little brickettes. So we use that as a measure to judge dosage of the lactulose. Does your ANA twitch much? MAGI does and they seem to emanate from the spinal area - sudden waves of jerks and twitches. We try to keep this under control by giving her the L-Arginine 2000mg & L-Ornithine 3000mg in one full wack along with some of the ammonia-absorbing probiotics. This sucks up the Ammonia in her bloodstream very well I'm reading. The jerking calms down within 30 minutes. Again, we try to use this as a measure of success. We tried the low protein diet, Hill's Feline L/D, but she was not at all keen on it and we are anxious that she does put on weight. I ended up putting in double cream to try and 'flavour it up' for her but with limited success. More cream meant more success but only added more protein so kind of defeated the object. However double cream is a regular treat which she loves as it adds a huge amount of fat calories which help in keeping the weight going and staying up. I'd add some brown cane sugar to this but only a sprinkle as she does not have that sweet a tooth - unlike one of our other cats, BISCUIT. We decided in the end (and in consultation with MAGI!!!) to give her as normal a diet as possible but add all the extra stuff to keep the effects at bay. This seems to work and she is happy with it. We give her ham/chicken/turkey only when we give her the phenobarbitone as it encourages her to take the pill - tiny though it be. Of course these are high in protein but I smear some lactulose onto it in the belief it will counter the adverse effects of the protein. I don't want to stress her by forcing her to take pills. This is another compromise that (she says!!!) she is happy with. I did think of giving her a soya-based protein as a mixed liquid in a small syringe. I read some good stuff about vegetable based protein. I never followed through with that as it would have been a form of force-feeding. At the time I was trying to develop a trusting relationship and that would not have been the way to go. We got MAGI from www.celiahammond.org and they cover all the vet bills that come up including her epilepsy medication. However, to tell the truth I feel guilty about getting the treatment free so I always pay for everything they give us. I'm a regular direct-debit donor to them anyway. The cat-rescue people are fantastic people. I'd love to get her the operation that would cure her but there are some major risks which concern me and I think we can successfully proceed as we are doing now. I'm confident her lifespan will run a good number of quality years. Those pics of ANA show a lively, curiousity-driven kitten!!! When MAGI re-discovered and then responded to the catnip for the first time it brought tears to my eyes (almost!). We got MAGI at two when damage had been done. AMI is very young and you are a genuine carer so she will flourish with you. Iain >Thank you *very* much for your reply. It helps me immensely to know that >there is a PSS cat out there who is having a good life. Officially, the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >http://www.snittens.com/ana.html >http://www.snittens.com/ana2.html >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< The vet just called and recommended the Hill's L/D food. I'm trying to work out the logistics of feeding her a different food from my other cats. No, Ana doesn't really seem to twitch that I've noticed. When she had the seizures before, I noticed that they seemed to start with her right ear twitching. I'll have to check into the other supplements you mentioned. That's wonderful that the rescue is covering her expenses. The bind I'm in right now is that the shelter is "still thinking" about whether or not to cover Ana's. We may end up adopting her so that she can live, but we were really not looking to adopt another cat. We already have 6, and as much as I love Ana, what I really want to do is get her to a point where she can be adoptable. If I can tell a potential adopter, yes she has PSS, but I do x,y, and z to keep it under control, this is how much it costs, etc, then I think someone might adopt her. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com > Yes, this is the problem. She needs the protein to grow but is harmed > by the by products like ammonia and bacteria. [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< >The vet just called and recommended the Hill's L/D food. I'm trying to work >out the logistics of feeding her a different food from my other cats. We have this problem too. BISCIUT and JADE are putting on the weight as the food MAGI does not eat gets wolfed down by the other two. As well as that the other two are much bigger than her and tend to knock her aside - mind you MAGI is not adverse to knocking back! We keep 'stress at the dining area' down by isolating MAGI in our 'office' room so she can eat in peace and in her own time. She has a funny habit of having a nibble, going for a walk/patrol, then having a nibble, then going for a wander again. Usually when she comes back the food is rapidly going!!! It'd be harder with your six cats as we only have three. We could take four at a push but it would upset the cat dynamics. We are going to wait until we buy a house with a garden as my other half wants a chocolate point siamese. Good luck with the Hill's though! If you were in the UK I'd give you the pack we got as MAGI will not touch it. JADE liked it though! >No, Ana doesn't really seem to twitch that I've noticed. When she had the >seizures before, I noticed that they seemed to start with her right ear >twitching. I'll have to check into the other supplements you mentioned. I got those supplements from www.lef.org in a product called 'Nightime Growth Hormone Formula'. It has the L.Ornithine/L-Arginie which does the trick. We only give her one capsule per day and sometime 1.5 or 2 if the twitching is very bad. It calms her twitching and jerking very quickly. We got MAGI a few years on and we suspect she has neurological damage now. Your getting ANA very young gives you and her the blessing of a chance to prevent that. >That's wonderful that the rescue is covering her expenses. The bind I'm in >right now is that the shelter is "still thinking" about whether or not to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >x,y, and z to keep it under control, this is how much it costs, etc, then I >think someone might adopt her. We would take her from you if we were close by. ANA is quite beautiful. I do believe and our experiebce is bearing this out that once you sort out the complicating factor the cat is as equal as any other and has as good a chance as any other. Lactulose and Pheno are not that expensive though you'll probably have found the Lactulose a bit icky-sticky. MAGI is slowly putting on weight, is less depressed, tired and becoming more confident about the house and with us. She will eventually be like a normal cat (if there is such a thing as a 'normal' cat). Iain ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > Yes, this is the problem. She needs the protein to grow but is harmed > by the by products like ammonia and bacteria. [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Iain Is the operation known successful? I thought from what I'd read that it's a shot, but still rather experimental. >Is the operation known successful? I thought from what I'd read that it's a >shot, but still rather experimental. From what I've read they say that the operation is best done on a kitten as soon as possible. But you are right it would be a long shot in an older cat. For me the main determinant would be whether the shunt was outside or inside the liver. As I understand it they tie off both ends and then remove it. Oddly enough the complication is a suddenly fully re-activated liver and this is what can cause problems. The epilepsy is not likely to be cured as this damage was done early on in her life. I did ask the vet at the cat trust if they could perform the operation and they said they could not as they had nobody experienced in that kind of surgery nor would they be able to finance it. Finance would not be an issue as the family were all willing to hit the overtime and raise the cash needed. However, our experience is that MAGI is actually coming on really well. The main thing is the (rather simple process of) control of the ammonia/bacteria while still enabling her to grow and develop and we and she seems to be on top of this. MAGI is bouncing about quite nicely now and I'm reluctant to pursue a surgical procedure that may cost her her life. Of course, surgery on a cat with epilepsy also has very serious dangers. Iain ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Hi, How are things with ANA? Iain >First the good news: >Ana has been doing very well since coming home from the emergency vet. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >problem. Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages >it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > Hi, > > How are things with ANA? > > Iain Hi Iain, Things are going well. We were on vacation for a week, so Ana spent the week with one of the other shelter volunteers. She developed a URI while there and has a gunky eye, but other than that, she is great! She's energetic, played with the other kitten at her house. We just got home a few hours ago and she has been running around the house checking everything out. I think she got bigger in the past week! I have to make a case for Ana in front of the Executive Committee at the shelter. Not sure exactly when that will be, but probably in the next few weeks. The shelter's vet costs have been high, and I think the president is in a tough spot here. I don't want to get into too much shelter politics, but if it comes down to it, I'll adopt her. I want to thank you again for all your help and information. I've shared Magi's story with some of the people at the shelter as an example of how a kitten with this condition can live a good life. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com >Things are going well. We were on vacation for a week, so Ana spent the >week with one of the other shelter volunteers. She developed a URI while >there and has a gunky eye, but other than that, she is great! She's >energetic, played with the other kitten at her house. We just got home a >few hours ago and she has been running around the house checking everything >out. I think she got bigger in the past week! That is really good to hear she is energetic and putting on weight. It's a sign she is coming along nicely and will flourish. MAGI is doing well too. She also had an eye infection but is more-or-less at the end of it. However, the odd thing is it took two weeks to clear. Normally such a thing would clear in a week. I'm assuming it was due to a slightly weakened immune system which I can boost up using a few herbal approaches. As I say, we got MAGI when she was two years into PSS so I'm thinking it has knocked her a bit. >I have to make a case for Ana in front of the Executive Committee at the >shelter. Not sure exactly when that will be, but probably in the next few [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >people at the shelter as an example of how a kitten with this condition can >live a good life. As I say once the complicating factors are accounted for and then managed daily a PSS cat has as good a chance as any other. I hope things go well with the committee but I understand how financially difficult it is for the rescue centres. If I came into a million tomorrow I know I'd be donating to my local Celia Hammond cat centre the day after!!! :-) Will you be making a case to get the PSS further investigated or what? I'm due to pick up some more phenobarbitone from the rescue vet in a few days and I was thinking of asking them to do a blood ammonia test just to make sure things were OK there. However, the vets always shave big chunks of fur off for such tests and it would traumatise and irritate her a bit so I may end up not doing that. MAGI has a bit of a reputation with the rescue centre as quite a hissy cat! She was like that when we brought her home but she has settled down hugely now and feels safer and more at home as a happy indoor feline. I'm only too glad to be of help. I have actually managed to find the sheets of notes I took when I was researching PSS alternative treatments for the first time. I'll send this info to you via this newsgroup in a few days when I've got better time to write it up. Say " MEEEOOOWWW!!! " to ANA for me. Iain ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > That is really good to hear she is energetic and putting on weight. > It's a sign she is coming along nicely and will flourish. MAGI is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > herbal approaches. As I say, we got MAGI when she was two years into > PSS so I'm thinking it has knocked her a bit. Ana has had a URI on and off ever since she came to my house, about a month ago. It seems to come back whenever I stop the Clavamox. Maybe she does have a bit of a weakened immune system. Would it be safe to give her L-lysine? > As I say once the complicating factors are accounted for and then > managed daily a PSS cat has as good a chance as any other. I hope > things go well with the committee but I understand how financially > difficult it is for the rescue centres. If I came into a million > tomorrow I know I'd be donating to my local Celia Hammond cat centre > the day after!!! :-) Our shelter has never had a clear policy about long-term or terminally ill fosters, so I think they are taking this opportunity with Ana's case to use it to set a policy. > Will you be making a case to get the PSS further investigated or what? I'm going to talk to the vet tomorrow about how often her bile acids and ammonia levels should be checked. I would like them to be checked periodically, so I can adjust her lactulose as needed. > I'm due to pick up some more phenobarbitone from the rescue vet in a > few days and I was thinking of asking them to do a blood ammonia test [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that when we brought her home but she has settled down hugely now and > feels safer and more at home as a happy indoor feline. The vet hasn't brought up using phenobarbitone yet, I'll ask her about that, too. Maybe she doesn't feel it's needed since she hasn't had any more seizures. Luckily, Ana is a very friendly and cooperative kitty, so taking her in for bloodwork isn't too traumatic. > I'm only too glad to be of help. I have actually managed to find the > sheets of notes I took when I was researching PSS alternative > treatments for the first time. I'll send this info to you via this > newsgroup in a few days when I've got better time to write it up. Thanks!! That would be great! > Say " MEEEOOOWWW!!! " to ANA for me. I will, thanks again for all your info and support. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com >> That is really good to hear she is energetic and putting on weight. >> It's a sign she is coming along nicely and will flourish. MAGI is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >have a bit of a weakened immune system. Would it be safe to give her >L-lysine? I'm actually experimenting with L-Lysine on one of my other cats, BISCUIT, who has an on-going problem with her left eye. It's too early to say if it works in her particular case. With MAGI I was going to see if it re-occurs and if it does too soon and looks like it will be a problem then apply the L-Lysine to her. However, I'm thinking that with a PSS cat a consideration always has to be is any proposed treatment PSS-friendly or not? I don't think L-Lysine would interfere with Ammonia clearance. (Some probiotics do and even encourage ammonia production). But I'll have to drop one of her 'anti-ammonia' amino acids if the eye infection re-occurs. The reason I say this is that I give MAGI L-Arginine which helps 'suck-up' the ammonia entering her blood stream. However the feline herpes virus behind recurrent many cat eye conditions is encouraged by L-Arginine (nneded to reproduce) but reproductively disrupted by the presence of L-Lysine. The virus will suck up L-Lysine because the L-Lysine displaces the preferred L-Arginine. Once this Lysine is in the virus's 'system' it cannot reproduce. The L-Arginine remaining in her bloodstream will still be able to suck up ammonia though. However, I need to consider that if MAGI has recurrent eye infections then I'll have to drop the l-arginine in favour of the l-lysine. It would be foolish to 'feed' a virus at the same time as you are trying to 'kill' it. The Lactulose and L-Ornithine along with the probiotics is already and still being put into her diet and so the ammonia will be well-controlled. These eye infections can be terrible and really debilitating for a cat so treatment there has to be a priority. I have stopped applying the cream into her eyes and now just watching to see if it re-occurs. I've also stopped the l-arginine as this may have been a reason why it took so long to clear. Just goes to show how careful you have to be and the value of researching these things. Thank God for the American invention of the Internet and the Scottish invention of the Web!!! :-) >> As I say once the complicating factors are accounted for and then >> managed daily a PSS cat has as good a chance as any other. I hope [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fosters, so I think they are taking this opportunity with Ana's case to use >it to set a policy. Hopefully the example of ANA will cause them to not judge too soon or early generally but to judge not at all in a PSS cat. < A silly image just came into my head there of irate kittens and cats demonstrating outside your committee meeting holding up placards with 'EQUAL RIGHTS FOR PSS CATS!' & 'A PSS CAT IS WORTHY CAT!' on them!!! > ;-) >> Will you be making a case to get the PSS further investigated or what? > >I'm going to talk to the vet tomorrow about how often her bile acids and >ammonia levels should be checked. I would like them to be checked >periodically, so I can adjust her lactulose as needed. Yes, I'd like to do that - just to see the numbers. But, as I say, is it worth pissing of MAGI for this? She has not had a seizure really since the autumn started and the temperature and humidity have fallen. I'm so wary of stressing her. I love her and want her to be fine all the time. The way I judge the lactulose is if the stools are rounded but soft then that dose is fine. If they get too hard I increase the dose and if too soft and runny reduce the dose. So far this pragmatic approach is working ... ... >> I'm due to pick up some more phenobarbitone from the rescue vet in a >> few days and I was thinking of asking them to do a blood ammonia test [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >seizures. Luckily, Ana is a very friendly and cooperative kitty, so taking >her in for bloodwork isn't too traumatic. You know, ANA may be lucky being caught so young that seizures become a very, very rare occurence. That would be an excellent thing but something that will have to monitored an judged by time and experience. >> I'm only too glad to be of help. I have actually managed to find the >> sheets of notes I took when I was researching PSS alternative [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I will, thanks again for all your info and support. ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > With MAGI I was going to see if it re-occurs and if it does too soon > and looks like it will be a problem then apply the L-Lysine to her. > However, I'm thinking that with a PSS cat a consideration always has > to be is any proposed treatment PSS-friendly or not? > I don't think L-Lysine would interfere with Ammonia clearance. (Some > probiotics do and even encourage ammonia production). But I'll have to > drop one of her 'anti-ammonia' amino acids if the eye infection > re-occurs. Shoot! I totally forgot to ask the vet about L-Lysine today! Phil, do you have any idea if L-Lysine would be a problem for a PSS kitty? It's seems like both my Ana and Iain's Magi have weakened immune systems. > Hopefully the example of ANA will cause them to not judge too soon or > early generally but to judge not at all in a PSS cat. I hope so. Maybe after I have Ana healthy for a while, I'll send her story in to a magazine or something. I was so discouraged when all I was finding was that PSS kittens are normally euthanized. > Yes, I'd like to do that - just to see the numbers. But, as I say, is > it worth pissing of MAGI for this? She has not had a seizure really > since the autumn started and the temperature and humidity have fallen. I did remember to ask the vet about this, and she said the bile acids and ammonia only need to be checked every 4-6 months, more frequently if she was not doing well. So, in your case if Magi is doing well, then probably better not to piss her off. I think with Ana, I inadvertently caused her seizures. When she first came to me to be fostered, she had a bad URI and was not eating. She was also skin and bones from being a stray. So, of course what did I do? I syringe-fed her a/d and kitten food. She started eating on her own, and began to chow down on kitten food. A couple days later, when she seemed to be doing fine, she had her seizures. I'm sure my overloading her with protein caused her seizures. But, how was I to know? I'm really hoping the seizures will be a very rare occurence. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com >> With MAGI I was going to see if it re-occurs and if it does too soon >> and looks like it will be a problem then apply the L-Lysine to her. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >have any idea if L-Lysine would be a problem for a PSS kitty? It's seems >like both my Ana and Iain's Magi have weakened immune systems. There is another alternative treatment for weakened immune systems and this is Melatonin. Reagarded as being the 'sleep-hormone' it is also used as an adjunct to cancer treatment by helping to ameliorate the immune system-weakening effects of chemotherapy. The normal (non-cancer) dose for people is 3mg so in a cat this would be much, much less. It is something to consider but I think to give the L-Lysine a chance first. The eye-infection in MAGI has now cleared up and both eyes are back to their bright brown selves. I stopped her arginine as this was encouraging the infection. I figure on giving it another weak or so before going back to the arginine as it is quite important in keeping the ammonia at bay. I'm hoping this is just a one-off infection and will not too soon return. However, if the condition re-occurs then there are other alternatives to the Arginine like Ornithine Aspartate for ammonia and glutamine reduction (the glutamine/ate can be neurotoxic). I really love Chinese food and MAGI will kill for the prawns in the King Prawn dishes I get. Trouble is Chinese food is also very high in Sodium Glutamate. The other two cats can eat them but with MAGI you have to rinse them first. Prawns are VERY high in protein so it not something I can give her too much of. I dip them in lactulose first and she wolf's them down. Just as an aside have you ever noticed how the quality of a cat's manners goes downhill when you buy in cooked food? If I rent a DVD and settle down in the living room with a take-away or fish and chips or pizza then these cats get really assertive!!! >> Hopefully the example of ANA will cause them to not judge too soon or >> early generally but to judge not at all in a PSS cat. > >I hope so. Maybe after I have Ana healthy for a while, I'll send her story >in to a magazine or something. I was so discouraged when all I was finding >was that PSS kittens are normally euthanized. I was horrified to hear that kittens were commonly euthanised for this. It's so easily treatable as well with a good prognosis with continued care and treatment. Good idea though to write an article for publication. I hate the thought of killing a kitten for a disability. >I think with Ana, I inadvertently caused her seizures. When she first came >to me to be fostered, she had a bad URI and was not eating. She was also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >protein caused her seizures. But, how was I to know? I'm really hoping the >seizures will be a very rare occurence. What else could you do? I would have done exactly the same. Give consideration that you have actually saved her life! If ANA could speak to you she'd probably say that that was pretty cool of you - well, she probably does that already in that lovely kitten-cat way!!! As to the seizures I'd bet they will be a rare occurence as you have caught her very early on. The cats nervous system and brain can be very badly damaged by the toxic ammonia and bacteria. I was reading stuff referring to parkinsons and alzheimer-like end results. Quite terrifying. I think MAGI has been injured neurologically. Though, as I say, her seizures are much reduced now. I should add I also give MAGI anti-oxidants like Vitamin E and C as I would imagine Ammonia to be highly oxidising, glutamate certainly is. MAGI always seems very warm to the touch and is kicking out a great deal of body heat so I was worried there may be inflammations going on inside. The anti-oxidants will help that. Iain ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > There is another alternative treatment for weakened immune systems and > this is Melatonin. Reagarded as being the 'sleep-hormone' it is also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be much, much less. It is something to consider but I think to give > the L-Lysine a chance first. Right now my thinking is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" so I'm a little reluctant to start Ana on anything else. But, if she gets another URI or eye thing soon, then I'll start her on something to boost her immune system. > I really love Chinese food and MAGI will kill for the prawns in the > King Prawn dishes I get. Trouble is Chinese food is also very high in > Sodium Glutamate. The other two cats can eat them but with MAGI you > have to rinse them first. Prawns are VERY high in protein so it not > something I can give her too much of. I dip them in lactulose first > and she wolf's them down. I've been very good about not giving Ana any table food. I'm too worried about how she might handle the protein of the meat. She's been doing so well on just the cat food she gets, I don't want to mess with it. I'm glad Magi's eye is doing better! > Just as an aside have you ever noticed how the quality of a cat's > manners goes downhill when you buy in cooked food? If I rent a DVD and > settle down in the living room with a take-away or fish and chips or > pizza then these cats get really assertive!!! Haha.. yes! Ana can be quite the pest at dinner time. We gave her scraps before the seizures happened and she still thinks she going to get them. A couple of my other cats are dinner vultures, too. > As to the seizures I'd bet they will be a rare occurence as you have > caught her very early on. The cats nervous system and brain can be > very badly damaged by the toxic ammonia and bacteria. I was reading > stuff referring to parkinsons and alzheimer-like end results. Quite > terrifying. I think MAGI has been injured neurologically. Though, as I > say, her seizures are much reduced now. This is what I'm hoping, that if we manage Ana's diet and keep up with the lactulose, that she will not have any more seizures. How old was Magi when she was rescued? I just finished writing my case for Ana to present to the board. I hope I can persuade anyone who thinks Ana should be put down. > ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com >> As to the seizures I'd bet they will be a rare occurence as you have >> caught her very early on. The cats nervous system and brain can be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I just finished writing my case for Ana to present to the board. I hope I >can persuade anyone who thinks Ana should be put down. MAGI was two years old when we got her in May, though she looked only six months to me. Very underdeveloped and depressed but quite aggressive with it. Her original owners were not really able to handle her; feeding her only commercial (for humans) tuna and virtually nothing else. You can imagine the damage that would do to a cat with B-Vitamin deficiency and not enough taurine. They were leaving Britain and Celia Hammond contacted us to see if we were interested in taking on a 'difficult cat'. When I saw MAGI I got the impression the original owners drugged her to keep her calm or they were overdoing the phenobarbitone. Obviously we took her straight away. She needed a lot of time to settle in and we gave her a lot of space and started on proper cat food. Researching her condition we acted as advised. Now, as I say, she is blooming lovely!!! The thing is to say that all a PSS cat needs is a little bit more care on the feeding side than an ordinary cat. Lactulose is cheap and easy to get and phenobarbitone is not that expensive either. They just give to us free but I usually pay ten or twenty pounds anyway as I want to help out the cat trust when I can. Your committee would not recommend euthanising a cat that is diabetic would they? A PSS cat requires far less complex maintainance. Are you able to upload or e-mail a copy of your written case - unless there are confidentiality issues, of course? I know you said you would take her on despite their decision but it is horrible to think of them doing that. It would be unecessary murder. [Before I get flamed by anyone; I am aware of the difficulty rescue-centres have of re-homing 'disabled' kittens/cats especially during times of population crisis. My argument is that a PSS cat is not that disabled and can be re-homed to anyone who is willing to make a little bit of effort on behalf of such a cat. I have three rescue cats and intend taking on more when we move to a larger house with an enclosable garden.] Iain ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< > MAGI was two years old when we got her in May, though she looked only > six months to me. Very underdeveloped and depressed but quite [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the impression the original owners drugged her to keep her calm or > they were overdoing the phenobarbitone. Oh my!! I'm surprised she was still alive, eating only tuna! That's awful. Poor Magi! > Obviously we took her straight away. She needed a lot of time to > settle in and we gave her a lot of space and started on proper cat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Your committee would not recommend euthanising a cat that is diabetic > would they? A PSS cat requires far less complex maintainance. I think what the main issues are here, regarding the shelter I'm with, are that the shelter vet's first recommendation was to euthanize Ana, so this is stuck in some people's minds. However, the vet has reversed her decision since she has been able to see how well Ana's doing. Also, we've had high vetting costs this year, and the fact that Ana has already cost about $700 because of the emergency hospital visit isn't in her favor. Our shelter is not strictly "no-kill", we consider it "low-kill". We have had diabetic cats in the past, and no, we don't put down if that is the diagnosis. They usually end up getting fostered by a volunteer, but it's always an issue. > Are you able to upload or e-mail a copy of your written case - unless > there are confidentiality issues, of course? I know you said you would > take her on despite their decision but it is horrible to think of them > doing that. It would be unecessary murder. I'll email it to you. Don't want to post it here. Is that a legit email in your header? > [Before I get flamed by anyone; I am aware of the difficulty > rescue-centres have of re-homing 'disabled' kittens/cats especially [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cats and intend taking on more when we move to a larger house with an > enclosable garden.] Also one of the issues here is people not knowing much about PSS, and they are just looking at the fact that it is terminal. This is also one of the arguements here, that Ana is essentially taking up a "space" that we could use for a healthy kitten. She's not really, she's at my house and as we speak, I have two other fosters. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com Yes, the e-mail is accurate being iain_halder@btopenworld.com - that is an underline dash _ between first and last name by the way (my outlook here always underlines entire e-mail addresses.) Is your shelter able to accept a donation from the UK? Can you e-mail the relevant donation details? Iain >I think what the main issues are here, regarding the shelter I'm with, are >that the shelter vet's first recommendation was to euthanize Ana, so this is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cats in the past, and no, we don't put down if that is the diagnosis. They >usually end up getting fostered by a volunteer, but it's always an issue. ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Hi, Hi, I managed to dig out my notes from when I was researching nutritional approaches to treating a cat with PSS. Some are probably more practical than others but have a look and see what you think ... * Arginine ... Detoxifies ammonia in kidneys. * Vegetable protein based diet ... apparently less toxic. * BCAA Branched Chain Amino Acids Therapy ... protein is already broken down prior to ingestion. * BCAA's isoleucine/leucine/valine ... especially good in liver strengthening (used as treatments for liver cirrhosis apparently). Do not give phenyalanine/tryptophan/tyrosine. * Zinc supplementation ... this was unexplained but referred to. * Lactulose ... reduces bacteria in the gut & speeds transit of food & avoids constipation. * Protein restricted diets ... less production of ammonia. * Carnitine ... Reduces neurotoxicity of ammonia & glutamate. * Ornithine Aspartate ... Increases metabolism of ammonia and reduces neurotoxicity of ammonia/urea (Ornithine) and glutamine (Aspartate). * Antibiotics Neomycin, Metronidazole ... treatment for H-Pylori. * Lactobacillus Acidophilus ... Ammonia reducing gut flora. * Sodium Benzoate & Phenylacetate ... Will both reduce ammonia & glutamate. * Antioxidants (Vit C, E, etc) ... avoids oxidation/inflammationary damage. As you can see there are quite a few approaches. I use lactulose, arginine, ornithine & lactobacillus acidophilus as the main treatments on MAGI - along with phenobarbitone, of course. With this she is doing well by putting on weight and being much less depressed. She still has this twitching and jerking and occasional seizure but not so much as before. Two other things with MAGI ... her whiskers have come on nicely and her tail is starting to point upwards!!! The whiskers were short and ragged when we got her but the have grown so much longer and firmer that she could well join the RAF. Likewise her tail was always down but then rose to horizontal and now when she walks it is starting to regularly point upwards. I think that in a cat these must be two definate signs of good and improving health. Iain >Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages >it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Thanks!! I printed this out for reference. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< Hi, I managed to dig out my notes from when I was researching nutritional approaches to treating a cat with PSS. Some are probably more practical than others but have a look and see what you think ... * Arginine ... Detoxifies ammonia in kidneys. * Vegetable protein based diet ... apparently less toxic. * BCAA Branched Chain Amino Acids Therapy ... protein is already broken down prior to ingestion. * BCAA's isoleucine/leucine/valine ... especially good in liver strengthening (used as treatments for liver cirrhosis apparently). Do not give phenyalanine/tryptophan/tyrosine. * Zinc supplementation ... this was unexplained but referred to. * Lactulose ... reduces bacteria in the gut & speeds transit of food & avoids constipation. * Protein restricted diets ... less production of ammonia. * Carnitine ... Reduces neurotoxicity of ammonia & glutamate. * Ornithine Aspartate ... Increases metabolism of ammonia and reduces neurotoxicity of ammonia/urea (Ornithine) and glutamine (Aspartate). * Antibiotics Neomycin, Metronidazole ... treatment for H-Pylori. * Lactobacillus Acidophilus ... Ammonia reducing gut flora. * Sodium Benzoate & Phenylacetate ... Will both reduce ammonia & glutamate. As you can see there are quite a few approaches. I use lactulose, arginine, ornithine & lactobacillus acidophilus as the main treatments on MAGI - along with phenobarbitone, of course. With this she is doing well by putting on weight and being much less depressed. She still has this twitching and jerking and occasional seizure but not so much as before. Two other things with MAGI ... her whiskers have come on nicely and her tail is starting to point upwards!!! The whiskers were short and ragged when we got her but the have grown so much longer and firmer that she could well join the RAF. Likewise her tail was always down but then rose to horizontal and now when she walks it is starting to regularly point upwards. I think that in a cat these must be two definate signs of good and improving health. Iain >Someone else on here posted about his cat that has PSS and manages >it mostly with diet. What are Ana's chances for a normal life? ... >'o'< Rescued Cats & Kittens Needing Homes >'o'< www.celiahammond.org >'o'< |
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