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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / September 2004A question about feeding canned food...
Hi again, I've spoken to my vet about Cilla ("Horrible Pet Owner" post) and she has recommended a completely canned diet for Cilla. I don't really think it will be that difficult to convert her...she loves her wet food and only picks at the dry. The wet food we give her comes in pouches that are 100g each. As of today we are feeding her twice a day to coincide with her antibiotics. Is this enough?? The box says it should be 4 pouches which seems like quite a lot to me!! Any ideas? Thanks Summer "SummerC" summer@canada-eh.freeserve.co.uk , writes >I've spoken to my vet about Cilla ... she has >recommended a completely canned diet for Cilla. From my experience having cats for 20+ years and being a veterinary assistant for 5.....cats need canned & dry. The dry helps keep the teeth strong(er)....one must monitor kitties dental health as a normal part of things. > "SummerC" summer@canada-eh.freeserve.co.uk , writes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > strong(er)....one must monitor kitties dental health as a normal part of > things. How do you get them to eat enough wet when they prefer the dry and will only eat the wet when no dry is available? I'm trying to convert my cats to a wet food diet, and they're not overly thrilled with me ATM. If I give them any dry, they don't eat the wet. I worry about their kidneys and urinary tract, especially as I've lost 3 cats to problems from bladder stones, kidney stones, and kidney failure at relatively young ages. I blame the all-dry diet, now that I've read so much about it. I do brush their teeth and keep tartar to a minimum. I'd be happy to give them a mix if they'd EAT it. *heh*  Signature-- ~kaeli~ A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > ~kaeli~ > A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless > interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an > otherwise dull day. HA! (...) > How do you get them to eat enough wet when they prefer the dry and will only > eat the wet when no dry is available? Don't give 'em dry until they've scoffed the wet? The dry can be a sort of crunchy dessert, a bit like chocolate coated peanuts, sans chocolate and peanuts. Steve. > (...) >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sort of crunchy dessert, a bit like chocolate coated peanuts, sans > chocolate and peanuts. I had to switch my two to canned when one was diagnosed diabetic in January. They would still hang around where the dry cannister was in the kitchen, begging. I started giving them each a heaping tablespoon of Purina diabetic dry as a snack in the evening, but the rest of the time, they don't get any dry. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sort of crunchy dessert, a bit like chocolate coated peanuts, sans > chocolate and peanuts. LOL Yeah, that's where we're at right now, except we're finding out what they'll eat and won't eat. I don't want to starve the poor things (esp. my overweight male, who I worry about fatty liver if he just stops eating), so if they don't eat morning or night wet feeding, I leave dry down overnight. So far, they won't touch Science Diet, IAMS (yes, I even tried the hated P&G IAMS in the hopes there would be at least ONE semi-healthy brand they'd eat; two wouldn't touch it, one ate some and immediately puked his little guts out), Wellness, or Innova. They pick at Max Cat, Nutro Max, and Pro Plan. They seem to really like Friskies (ewwww) especially the shredded kinds (fancy feast or the big cans) and don't much care for 9 Lives. They also seem to like that new Meow Mix that comes in the packets, but won't touch the other packet brands. The MM has tiny little chunks instead of the big slices. They don't like big chunks or slices of any brand. I'm going broke trying all these kinds and I end up throwing almost all of it out. *sigh* I want them to eat some dry if they won't eat the high quality wet, since they do like some of the higher quality dry, but I also want them to get enough wet that they stay nice and hydrated and get the benefits of wet food. We're working on finding the balance. Signature-- ~kaeli~ The best part of having kids is giving them back to their parents. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > LOL > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to really like Friskies (ewwww) especially the shredded kinds (fancy feast or > the big cans) Have you tried Fancy Feast Chopped Grill Feast? It is STILL the only wet food that my girls beg for and eat every last bit of. I am about out of the Maxcat, Science Diet, and Nutro I got at Petsmart a while back. While there were some kinds they liked (like yours, they don't want no steeeeeking chunks, lol! I have to mash them with a fork or they just lick all the gravy off) nothing has compared to this particular flavor of FF. (It is ground.) I know it isn't as good for them--but they still get it two days a week, just because I can't see depriving them of something that obviously gets them high. It REEKS of something like roast beef's poorest cousin. But then, I think it all stinks, esp. before coffee. > Have you tried Fancy Feast Chopped Grill Feast? It is STILL the only > wet food that my girls beg for and eat every last bit of. *hehe* Yeah, they like it pretty good. They like most of the Fancy Feast and Friskies in general. I'd prefer they eat steak over McDonald's, but any wet is better than none, I guess, from what I've been reading lately. If they refuse the decent quality wet, though, I'll feel guilty for not giving them the better quality dry in addition to it. I can't figure out which is worse - a low quality wet food as the primary food, or a high quality dry... I wish I could really talk to them - at least then I could bribe them. "If you eat the Science Diet today, I promise I'll give you Fancy Feast tomorrow." LOL Signature-- ~kaeli~ If you don't pay your exorcist, you get repossessed. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >I can't figure out which is worse - a low quality wet food as the primary >food, or a high quality dry... The low quality wet food is worse. Why would one want to feed high levels of salt (as one example) in a poor quality wet food? > >I can't figure out which is worse - a low quality wet food as the primary > >food, or a high quality dry... > > The low quality wet food is worse. Why would one want to feed high levels of > salt (as one example) in a poor quality wet food? Because I'm worried about them not drinking enough and getting kidney and bladder problems. I have lost 3 cats over the course of my life to such problems. I'm afraid of losing another. I had one (as a child) who kept getting stones and needing VERY expensive surgery, so my parents put her down. Then I lost my Julian and he was only 4. He got a blockage from a bladder stone and went toxic and by the time I got him to the vet, it was too late. He was too much of a trouper and I never knew he was sick until I woke up one morning and he was on his side, mewling in pain, and couldn't walk. He couldn't pee at all. Total blockage. Poisoned his blood, from what I understand from what the vet said, and the bladder was nearly ruptured with some urine leaking into the body cavity. My parents lost their Tom (I grew up with him, sort of, but he was their cat and I was out of the house when he passed) at only 13 to renal failure. I loved him a lot, though, even if he wasn't technically mine. I lived with him for like 11 years. So, I'm looking at the pros and cons of quality, wet vs dry, and so on. I don't think I can bear losing another one young to something I could have prevented. If I thought it had nothing to do with their diets, I'd just feed them the good quality dry and be done with it. It's less expensive (I've spent WAY more money than usual this month on wet food vs dry and I'm not even getting the high quality stuff much, since they won't eat it) and they enjoy it more. I'm just very worried about their health. 2 cans a day shared by 3 cats averages $1 a day right now. When they really start eating it, it'll be a can each and hopefully better quality stuff in there, so probably more like $2 a day. That's $60 a month. That's a LOT more than the $25 a month I spent on two bags of very good (not best; they won't eat that) quality dry. So if the good quality dry is just as good or better than the lower quality wet, I'd be more than happy to let them have it. :) Signature-- ~kaeli~ I love God. It's His fanclub that I can't stand. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > I'm just very worried about their health. > 2 cans a day shared by 3 cats averages $1 a day right now. When they really > start eating it, it'll be a can each and hopefully better quality stuff in > there, so probably more like $2 a day. That's $60 a month. Wow, unless you are buying small cans, your cats eat a lot! Mine are on one-quarter of a large can each per day, and .125-.33 of a cup of dry each per day. That's around 75c/day (37c/cat), $22/month. I might even need to reduce their intake slightly to stop one of 'em from becoming a furry lardarse. (...) > So if the good quality dry is just as good or better than the lower quality > wet, I'd be more than happy to let them have it. :) I guess the problem is that if don't know whether your cats are especially susceptible to urinary nastyness, then you don't know whether it's best to err on the side of water intake (shitty wet food) versus generally better nutritional profile (quality dry). It might be possible to increase a cat's water intake by altering the temperature or presentation method of their water - don't know if anyone has actually researched this though. (I keep meaning to do an n=2 experiment myself, comparing the water intake when a fountain is available versus when a bowl is the weapon of choice. Dunno if I'll ever do this though). Uselessly and parathetically, Steve. > (...) > > I'm just very worried about their health. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wow, unless you are buying small cans, your cats eat a lot! Oh, they don't eat it all. I just don't like to store wet food in the fridge and then have to heat it. So they share one in the morning and one in the evening, but they rarely finish it all. So, they each get about a half a can a day plus a little dry. The "recommended serving" on the cans says a can per day per 8 pound cat. The cans are, IIRC, somewhere around 5 oz. The cans range from 40 cents to $1 each, depending on what kind I buy. I'm so used to free-feeding dry, I have no clue how much wet to give them. > (...) > > So if the good quality dry is just as good or better than the lower quality [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > whether it's best to err on the side of water intake (shitty wet food) > versus generally better nutritional profile (quality dry). I know. I worry most about Rowan and Jeffrey. Rowan, because she's always been a little sickly and she gets dehydrated very quickly and Jeffrey b/c he's a boy. Isis always seems well-hydrated. They all drink ample water. I think what I'm going to do is give them whatever wet they like the most in the morning and late afternoon and leave them a half-cup of their higher- quality dry to share overnight. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Quantum Express: When you absolutely, positively, don't know where it's going or when it needs to be there. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Oh, they don't eat it all. I just don't like to store wet food in the fridge > and then have to heat it. So they share one in the morning and one in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm so used to free-feeding dry, I have no clue how much wet to give them. My girls share a 3-oz can and don't finish it, then they get dry, Boo half a cup a day and Cheeks the skinny one as much as she wants. I wonder how Boo can be so fat? It is worrisome as she is getting bigger now that her hyperthyroid is regulated. She should weigh about 8 pounds and she weighed 13.5 at her last checkup. Not good. (But I didn't do it to her! Her first owner delivered her that way.) > > (...) > > > So if the good quality dry is just as good or better than the lower quality [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the morning and late afternoon and leave them a half-cup of their higher- > quality dry to share overnight. >I'm so used to free-feeding dry, I have no >clue how much wet to give them. An indoor cat generally needs about 15 calories per pound to maintain their body weight. For example, if your cat weighs 8 pounds he would need 120 calories a day, or 60 calories per meal. The average can of Wellness canned food is around 180 calories, so 1/3 of a can twice a day would be just right. If you haven't tried Wellness yet, you might want to as most cats I know of that have tried it like it, it's excellent quality with no grains, and the Fancy Feast, SD, etc. are not good quality foods. You can find the calorie content of a variety of canned foods here: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >I'm so used to free-feeding dry, I have no > >clue how much wet to give them. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You can find the calorie content of a variety of canned foods here: > http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html Thanks! I wish cat foods had lables like human foods that had calorie and nutrition content right on there. This would be a lot easier. Interestingly enough, after looking at the dry food info, the dry they like has less phosphorous per serving than the canned that they like. This seems to indicate to me that it's better for their kidneys and urinary tract to eat the dry that they like more than the wet that they like. What do you think? Signature-- ~kaeli~ You feel stuck with your debt if you can't budge it. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: >Interestingly enough, after looking at the >dry food info, the dry they like has less [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >more than the wet that they like. What do >you think? If the cats are healthy and without kidney issues, I'd rather feed a higher phosphorus canned diet than lower phosphorus dry food. There is no evidence that somewhat higher phosphorus levels than the Hill's Gods dictate <note intense sarcasm here ;-)> are harmful to healthy cats. It's becomes a concern with kidney failure (which may be postponed or avoided by feeding a canned diet). If you look at the phosphorus content of a mouse, it's higher than cat food. The constant state of dehydration that occurs as a result of feeding dry food is, IMO, much more harmful. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > If the cats are healthy and without kidney issues, I'd rather feed a > higher phosphorus canned diet than lower phosphorus dry food. There is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of a mouse, it's higher than cat food. The constant state of dehydration > that occurs as a result of feeding dry food is, IMO, much more harmful. Thanks. I think we're going to go with a variety of wet food in the morning and afternoon and leave them some dry overnight. Hopefully over time they'll learn to like the better quality wet, but in the meantime, I want them to get good nutrition, so I'll let them have some dry. Plus, I think it's good for them to have to chew once in a while. *G* They can get the water content of the wet and the nutrition of the dry for now. I sure wish I could talk to them and bribe them with treats for eating the good stuff. *smiles* You know, why is it the higher-quality wet looks like paste and the lower- quality wet is all full of gravy and looks almost good enough for me to eat? Well, not really, but you know what I mean. *heh* No wonder they prefer the Fancy Feast. The good stuff sure doesn't look very good, and it doesn't smell very good, either. If I were a cat, I'd probably refuse to eat it, too. Signature-- ~kaeli~ The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: > I think we're going to go with a variety > of wet food in the morning and afternoon > and leave them some dry overnight. If you stop leaving dry food out at night your cats will start eating all the canned you give them because they won't have been snacking all night and will have a good appetitie. It does take a little time while you're transitioning but they figure it out. > Hopefully over time they'll learn to > like the better quality wet, but in the > meantime, I want them to get good > nutrition, so I'll let them have some > dry. Plus, I think it's good for them to > have to chew once in a while. *G* Giving them some cooked chicken hearts and gizzards will accomplish this much better and won't leave a starchy goo stuck to their teeth. :-) > They can get the water content of the > wet and the nutrition of the dry for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > very good, either. If I were a cat, I'd > probably refuse to eat it, too. What is your definition of good stuff? I think you mentioned SD, and IMO it is pretty disgusting. :-P Nutro used to be fairly decent but they moved to least cost formulation and now the food is icky. I've spent a lot of time researching canned foods to find some that are high quality that my cats will like. Frankly, there's just not a lot of brands out there that meet my standards, but fortunately there are just enough that I can give my cats excellent nutrition and variety. If you have an opportunity get some Wellness and try it. That stuff smells really good and is one of the best quality foods I've found. I also like Felidae and Innova, and Precise isn't too bad either. Solid Gold makes a tuna canned food that is great for treats but I wouldn't feed it regularly. And they all smell really good! Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >If you have an opportunity get some Wellness and try it. That stuff >smells really good and is one of the best quality foods I've found. I >also like Felidae and Innova, and Precise isn't too bad either. Solid >Gold makes a tuna canned food that is great for treats but I wouldn't >feed it regularly. And they all smell really good! ...all of which are "all life stage" foods which shouldn't be fed to senior cats (or adult cats, for that matter). Higher phosphorus, sodium, calcium, magnesium levels, you know! > Kaeli wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > night and will have a good appetitie. It does take a little time while > you're transitioning but they figure it out. Tried that. You probably didn't read the other post (it was a few days ago I think) where I was lamenting that I had to leave it for them because I was worried they would get fatty liver. They didn't eat for a whole 36 hours. I got worried. Jeffrey is fat enough that I worried about FLS with him not eating. Isis is fine. Rowan is too thin already (she's my sickly baby who has a recurring URI). I don't leave enough dry for them to get full; just enough so they do actually eat something for the day if they haven't. They scream at me in the morning for more food and chow if I give them something they like, so I figure they're hungry. > Giving them some cooked chicken hearts and gizzards will accomplish this > much better and won't leave a starchy goo stuck to their teeth. :-) Rowan will eat cooked beef (she loves my tacos). The other two won't eat any meat that I've tried to give them, cooked or raw. We tried beef heart, chicken heart, chicken gizzards, cooked ground beef, and cooked chicken muscle meat. They won't eat canned fish of any kind, including tuna. I have odd cats. > What is your definition of good stuff? Anything they'll eat that costs more than $1 a pound dry and more then .50 a can wet. *smile* > I think you mentioned SD, They hate SD, IAMS, and Innova. Here's what we've tried... Paws up for dry: Chicken Soup Cat Lovers Royal Canin Pro Plan Nutro Max Cat Nutro Natural Choice Anything that qualifies as Kitty Micky Ds (cat chow, 9-lives, etc) Paws up for wet: Most Fancy Feast flavors (no sliced) Some Friskies flavors (mostly the shredded) Some Pro Plan flavors (only kinds with no chunks) Meow Mix packets (most flavors, not the fish) Paws down for wet: 9-lives Wiskas Wellness IAMS Innova Nutro Max Cat Nutro Natural Choice Signature-- ~kaeli~ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Oh, and Kaeli, It's best to just ignore Steve Crane and Gaubster. They both lie and post deceitful innuendo to promote their Hills agenda, and Gobby scans the newsgroup wth bated breath looking for any post that resembles a food discussion so he can jump in, post lies, spout rhetoric, attack, namecall and make accusations while expecting everyone else to do his research for him. My guess is you already know this, as do most members of this group, but it is always worthwhile to mention it for new readers that haven't figured it out yet. Megan. Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >From: zuzu22@webtv.net >Date: 9/14/04 10:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Megan. LOL! You're absolutely crazy, you know that?? I find it quite telling that you find it neccessary to try and get people to discount what either one of says. You can't tolerate dissenting opinions. And I've seen Steve back you into a corner with FACTS on more than one occasion, so it's no suprise, really, that you would like others to ignore either one of us! As for your characterization of me--you're reaaalllllly far off! ;) >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >You know, why is it the higher-quality wet looks like paste and the lower- >quality wet is all full of gravy and looks almost good enough for me to eat? >Well, not really, but you know what I mean. *heh* If you get the canned Wellness, you will see it doesn't have that icky cat food smell like Fancy Feast or Scie Die. It doesn't look bad either. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you get the canned Wellness, you will see it doesn't have that icky cat food > smell like Fancy Feast or Scie Die. It doesn't look bad either. I'm pretty sure we tried that and it was a paws down. We got a can of anything Whole Foods had. They didn't eat any of it. And I know we got samples from the people at the cat show that no one would eat. *sigh* I feel like I have toddlers. Oh, wait, I do, they just have permanent fur suits. Signature-- ~kaeli~ I love God. It's His fanclub that I can't stand. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >We got a can of anything Whole Foods >had. Whole Foods doesn't carry Wellness, so it's likely you haven't tried it. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >We got a can of anything Whole Foods > >had. > > Whole Foods doesn't carry Wellness, so it's likely you haven't tried it. > > Megan Yeah, you're right - I went to that site and looked at the cans, and it didn't look at all familiar. I also found a place kinda sorta nearby that carries it, so I'm going to pop over this weekend and check it out. Thanks for the help! Signature-- ~kaeli~ Murphy's Law #3020: Quality assurance doesn't. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >> >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Oh, wait, I do, they just have permanent fur suits. LOL, they are like toddlers, aren't they? How are you introducing the new food to them? I've found that by adding maybe a teaspoon to the old food and mixing it in they are more likely to try it than if I just set down a whole plate of new food. Then I just slowly keep adding more of the new food. Sometimes a bribe food can work too. Something like a little parmesan cheese sprinkled on top. I've also been known to "accidentally" drop some new food on the floor <g> Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Lauren I still have not ordered any Wellness. Thanks for bringing this up again and putting it forefront on my mind. I've noticed the same thing Kaeli has. FF looks yummy, and the chicken ones smell pretty good. When I would try to switch them to SD, or Iams, that mushy stuff looks like compacted vomit and smells likewise.We've made the step to Pro Plan. Nutro they're so-so about. I am guilty of buying anything that I think Bootsie might actually eat; a can of something new here and there. She is so petite and tiny and doesn't eat well when it's hot. She likes fish. I actually bought a packet of the Meow Mix wet food. She sniffed it and RAN away from the bowl, clear to the back of the house. It was hysterical. Somehow I don't think she'd make a good commercial-cat for MM. Sherry > Kaeli wrote: > >Interestingly enough, after looking at the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Megan Of course I disagree. 1. Renal failure is the second most common cause of disease death in cats. 2. Detection of renal failure is always waaaaay too late. If you are having an ERD test done annually after 5 years of age, then fine you are keeping informed of relevatn risk. Unfortunately nobody is doing that. Heska hasn't sold enough ERD kits to test the cats in Pouhkeepsie, much less anywhere else in the country. 3. In a proceedings to be published later this Fall Dr. Beynen takes a very good look at a huge population of cats in Norway. Those cats with renal failure detected very early were fed different foods. Those fed a low phosphorus renal food lived 23 months longer than those that were fed a moderate phosphorus food. 4. 30% of cats over age 15 will suffer from imparied renal function and kidney failure. (AC Beynen again) Here's the decision you must make. Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some other emotional need/desire/preference I have, even when that need/desire/preference cannot be proven to show any benefit? Am I lucky enough to have a crystal ball like Saruman and can see into the future to know which cat of mine will be the eventual victim of renal failure? Steve wrote: <snip typcal Hills rhetoric and data that does nothing to prove phosphorus *causes* renal failure> Not ONE WORD you posted shows that phosphorus "causes" renal failure n healthy cats and, since I said that it would be contraindicated in cats with kidney issues, how could you disagree? And what exactly is excessive? Because Hills says it is it must be so? Where are the studies that prove what level is "excessive" in healthy cats? And while you're at it, explain how the perfect food for the cat (a mouse) is higher in phosphorus than commercial cat foods yet is the optimal diet. Show some evidence that higher phosphorus *causes* renal failure in healthy cats or STFU. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >From: zuzu22@webtv.net >Steve wrote: ><snip typcal Hills rhetoric and data that does nothing to prove >phosphorus *causes* renal failure> Steve has NEVER said before on these ngs that phosphorus CAUSES kidney disease. Why you're spinning it like that, I don't know? >Not ONE WORD you posted shows that phosphorus "causes" renal failure n >healthy cats and, since I said that it would be contraindicated in cats >with kidney issues, how could you disagree? He never said that it does. But if one is concerned with managing risk factors, then that should be taken into consideration. Why *anybody* would actively recommend feeding a food high in phosphorus or salt as being a good idea, is just being careless! >And while you're >at it, explain how the perfect food for the cat (a mouse) is higher in >phosphorus than commercial cat foods yet is the optimal diet. Who says that a mouse is a "perfect food for the cat"?? As for cats (in the wild) who have to live off of mice, I wonder what their life expectancy is?? > Steve wrote: > <snip typcal Hills rhetoric and data that does nothing to prove [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Megan Good Grief Megan, NOBODY has ever said excessive levels of phos CAUSES renal failure. That is not the point and never has been. The objective of being healthy is to _avoid_ certain risks. I wear a seat belt because there is a risk associated with not doing so. We know that there are risks associated with certain behaviors - sky diving is a risk. The act of sky diving does not mean that sky diving CAUSES your parachute to fail and your body to hit the ground at 80 miles per hour. Feeding a food with excessive levels of phosphorus is a clear, and totally unnecessary risk, especially if you are feeding an older kitty and are not getting the ERD testing done. It is a well known and well documented RISK, not a cause. When you can show me your crystal ball that allows you to know which cats will eventually die of renal failure, then we can eliminate the risk by feeding excessive phos diets to the segment of the population of cats that will not eventually succumb to renal failure. So far I haven't seen anybody with a crystal ball service letting you know which cats are going to die of renal failure. Renal failure is not detected until the kidney is +70% destroyed and the disease is progressing toward death. You could be feeding a cat with 50% of the kidney already destroyed and never know it. Your cat with no symptoms and with perfect lab results could be slowly dying of renal failure and you cannot even tell it is happening. At this stage feeding a high phos diet will indeed CAUSE the acceleration of the cats death. > Here's the decision you must make. > Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some > other emotional need/desire/preference I have, even when that > need/desire/preference cannot be proven to show any benefit? According to the lists at http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/dryfood.html The chicken, turkey, chicken & herring, and turkey & salmon flavors of Wellness don't have significantly more phosphorus than most of the varieties of Science Diet. The mixed seafood flavors have more, but so do a few of the Science Diet dry varieties. My cats (now 13 and 17) were on Science Diet dry most of their lives, until LeMieux was diagnosed diabetic in January. They ate Adult Maintenance for many years, and then Sensitive Stomach. (a 20 lb bag's worth of Lite and Senior at different periods caused them both to get noticably fatter, and develop large amounts of dander.) LeMieux (13) maintains normal bg (80 to 115) on Wellness canned. I tried Science Diet and Iams canned kitten food for several weeks (recommended by the vet as low-carb) when LeMieux was first diagnosed, but while they enjoyed both as a new treat for the first week or so, after that they both sniffed it when I put it out, and then avoided eating it for several hours until they were too hungry not to. I haven't had that reaction to the Wellness, which also smells a LOT better than the Science Diet and Iams, and has less carb content. BTW, Hills prescription M/D canned is higher in carb than Science Diet canned kitten food. Why? Gideon developed a bladder full of struvite crystals on the Science Diet dry. Fortunately, he never developed a blockage, but because his developing hyperthyroid caused him to drink and urinate more, he didn't have any obvious symptoms of bloody or concentrated urine, and he never broke litterbox training. His only obvious symptom was walking stiffly, and he was misdiagnosed as arthritic by my previous vet. The new vet took an X-ray to check, and found no sign of arthritis, but his bladder on the X-ray looked like it was *full* of fishtank gravel. Between the extra drinking from the hyperthyroid, and the Wellness diet, he managed to dissolve or excrete all but a marble-sized cluster of crystals before his pre-op X-ray (the vet was really surprised) so we cancelled the bladder surgery that was to be done along with the thyroid and dental. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >> Here's the decision you must make. >> Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >was really surprised) so we cancelled the bladder surgery that was >to be done along with the thyroid and dental. I'm really glad to hear how Wellness has helped your kitties. Yours is not the first post I've read where after switching to Wellness food, the cats do better. I had fed my previous cats Science Diet and they did poorly on it too. IMO there are better foods out there. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >I'm really glad to hear how Wellness has helped your kitties. Yours is not >the >first post I've read where after switching to Wellness food, the cats do >better. I had fed my previous cats Science Diet and they did poorly on it >too. > IMO there are better foods out there. LOL! "me, too Lauren" strikes again! You're becoming a parody of yourself! I've had nothing but good experiences with Science Diet (both dog and cat), so I suppose your mileage may vary! > > Here's the decision you must make. > > Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > than most of the varieties of Science Diet. The mixed seafood > flavors have more, but so do a few of the Science Diet dry varieties. Actually according to the canned website above the Wellness products average 201 mgs/100 kcals and the Science Diet products average 160 mg/ 100kcal, that an increase of 25.62% mroe phosphorus in the Wellness canned foods. 25% is a significant difference. > BTW, Hills prescription M/D canned is higher in carb than Science > Diet canned kitten food. Why? Feline m/d canned contains 15.7% carbs, Feline kitten liver & chicken contains 16.0% carbs, Feline Kitten Ocean Fish contains 13.1% carbs. The objective of m/d is to drive the cat into metabolic ketosis. Once that state is reached it does not matter what the carb level is. Feline Kitten also contains vastly higher levels of calcium and phosphorus to meet a growing kittens needs, which Feline m/d does not. Phos in Feline Kitten is at 0.99% versus m/d at .069% DMB basis. Feline Kitten is designed for a growing kitten, Feline m/d is desinged to induce metabolic ketosis in an adult cat which should not be getting growth levels of calcium, phosphorus etc. >> > Here's the decision you must make. >> > Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > mg/ 100kcal, that an increase of 25.62% mroe phosphorus in the > Wellness canned foods. 25% is a significant difference. Playing math games by adding up all the Hills and Wellness flavors and dividing by the number of flavors offered does not negate what I stated. Several of the Wellness flavors contain 175-183mg/kcals, while the Science Diet canned Light Adult, Savory Cuts flavors and Senior Savory Cuts flavors are in the same range. Yet the *senior* Savory Cuts is *not* among the lower of Science Diet canned flavors in phosphorus, as the 3 "Adult" flavors and the "Senior" that are not Savory Cuts are lower. Only 2 of 16 types of Science Diet Dry are lower in phosphorus than the flavors I mentioned of Wellness canned, and quite a few of them are a good deal higher, some well over 200. Same for Hills prescription dry -- only a couple lower and several well over 200. That said, my cats *were* very happy and healthy on Science Diet dry Adult and Sensitive Stomach until they became elderly. The major disappointment was that several vets told me that a diet of Science diet dry would prevent FUS/FLUTD, but poor Gideon eventually developed a bladder full of struvite crystals on it. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >> jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) wrote in message >news:<slrnckensl.538.jamie@bozo2.local.net>... [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >are a good deal higher, some well over 200. Same for Hills prescription >dry -- only a couple lower and several well over 200. Very interesting..... Steve does have a habit of fudging numbers when it comes to brands other than Science Diet. Of course as an employee of Hill's, Steve probably feels the need to do so. >That said, my cats *were* very happy and healthy on Science Diet dry >Adult and Sensitive Stomach until they became elderly. The major >disappointment was that several vets told me that a diet of Science >diet dry would prevent FUS/FLUTD, but poor Gideon eventually developed >a bladder full of struvite crystals on it. Oh dear :( Sorry to hear about Gideon, Jamie. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) > Very interesting..... > Steve does have a habit of fudging numbers when it comes to brands other than > Science Diet. Of course as an employee of Hill's, Steve probably feels the > need to do so. Oh baloney - no numbers were "fudged" and you well know it. I simply took the averages of the diets Jamie provided. Do the math yourself and show me where I "fudged" the numbers. Sometimes Lauren you do more damage to your own credibility when you illustrate your obsessive predjudice. > >That said, my cats *were* very happy and healthy on Science Diet dry > >Adult and Sensitive Stomach until they became elderly. The major > >disappointment was that several vets told me that a diet of Science > >diet dry would prevent FUS/FLUTD, but poor Gideon eventually developed > >a bladder full of struvite crystals on it. No veterinarian should ever have told you that Science Diet dry would "prevent" FLUTD. No food can accomplish that 100% of the time. >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >Very interesting..... >Steve does have a habit of fudging numbers when it comes to brands other than >Science Diet. Of course as an employee of Hill's, Steve probably feels the >need to do so. Lauren, you have a habit of outright LYING when it suits your needs or when you are caught in one lie and try to cover it up with another. Steve doesn't "fudge" numbers. I've never seen him do that. Just because you have this irrational hatred towards the company he works for, doesn't mean you should impugn him as a person, every chance you get. >>From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oh dear :( Sorry to hear about Gideon, Jamie. Well, he's thankfully had a happy ending after switching vets. The poor fella was misdiagnosed as arthritis last November, because he was lurching when he walked with a strange posture of his rear end kind of hunched up, by the previous quack vet. (The vet who missed his enormous goiter and a couple of broken teeth, and didn't seem to think blood tests were in order during 3 visits where I kept bringing him back for weight loss and not eating enough, when he'd dropped from 15.5 pounds to under 13 pounds. "It's just the new canned diet.") When I first took him to the new vet who recently did his thyroid surgery, she suggested an X-ray to confirm his arthritis, and there were no signs of arthritis, but his bladder looked as though it was *full*, and I do mean *full*, of fish gravel. He had been on canned a few months by then, and had stopped lurching when he walked, so the stones had likely been even worse last fall. That he was also developing hyperthyroid and drinking excessively probably protected him from blockage, but it also masked any signs I might have otherwise seen of concentrated or bloody urine. He never peed outside the box, either. We expected that he would need bladder surgery along with the thyroid surgery to remove so many bladder stones. But when he had his pre-op X-ray after the 3 weeks on Tapazole to see if the shadow on his chest had changed (it was gone), we had a big surprise. He had somehow managed to dissolve all but a marble-sized cluster of stones. Apparently the switch to Wellness, acidifying his urine, along with the excessive drinking, allowed him to dissolve and pee out most of the crystals. My vet didn't feel it was necessary to surgically remove the small cluster that was left, that he would be able to pee them out on his own. He'd dropped to 10 3/4 pounds by the time he had his surgery. He had his thyroid and dental surgery on Aug. 31, and 10 days later his follow-up T4 and kidney levels were fine, and he'd gained half a pound. My people-scale at home is too inaccurate to weigh him, but now when I pick him up, he feels like a cat again, instead of a bird with fur. I'm going to swing him by the vet's office next week to find out what he actually weighs. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >>>From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >again, instead of a bird with fur. I'm going to swing him by >the vet's office next week to find out what he actually weighs. Wow, Jamie, that sure sounds like a lot of crystals, poor boy! I'm really glad you switched him to Wellness and also found a new vet. Give Gideon a hug from me. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm >> > Here's the decision you must make. >> > Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >to induce metabolic ketosis in an adult cat which should not be >getting growth levels of calcium, phosphorus etc. >From: zuzu22@webtv.net >If the cats are healthy and without kidney issues, I'd rather feed a >higher phosphorus canned diet than lower phosphorus dry food. There is >no evidence that somewhat higher phosphorus levels than the Hill's Gods >dictate <note intense sarcasm here ;-)> are harmful to healthy cats. >It's becomes a concern with kidney failure (which may be postponed or >avoided by feeding a canned diet). LOL! Megan, where do you get your nutritional knowledge? The analogy you gave is like telling somebody that there is no harm in eating a diet high in sodium until after they suffer a heart attack! Not to mention that signs of kidney disease don't manifest themselves until it's already too late (75% of the nephons are irreparably damaged/destroyed) Managing risk factors is important all of the time, not just when it's too late. Wouldn't the better option be to feed a lower phosphorus canned food (like Science Diet)? Although I guess that would disqualify your fondness for Wellness if you followed that advice! > LOL! Megan, where do you get your nutritional knowledge? The analogy you gave > is like telling somebody that there is no harm in eating a diet high in sodium > until after they suffer a heart attack! LOL! Gaub, where do you get your nutritional knowledge? While it was once believed that eating high sodium caused high blood pressure, it was proven years ago that only a small percentage of hypertensives are adversely affected by sodium, and that eating a lot of sodium doesn't cause high blood pressure in most people. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >> LOL! Megan, where do you get your nutritional knowledge? The analogy you >gave [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >hypertensives are adversely affected by sodium, and that eating a >lot of sodium doesn't cause high blood pressure in most people. It's a risk factor, plain and simple. Would you drive around at night without your headlights on--even though there is no guarantee that you'll crash in the dark? The subject here is cats. Kidney disease (for example) is a leading killer of cats. The problem is that we can't diagnose it until it's too late. We don't know which cats will ultimately suffer from renal failure. Why would you recommend a high sodium diet to *any* cat, not knowing if a cat's kidneys are compromised or not? There is a lot of research showing that high levels of sodium can exacerbate kidney disease. And I believe that my analogy still stands. If a person is prone to a heart attack, they probably should cut back on their sodium intake. I'm not a cardiologist, however. >From: zuzu22@webtv.net > If you haven't tried Wellness yet, you might want >to as most cats I know of that have tried it like it, it's excellent >quality with no grains, and the Fancy Feast, SD, etc. are not good >quality foods. More lies, Megan?? Science Diet IS a good, quality food and it's certainly worlds better than Fancy Feast. But since you are a Hill's Hater, you'll never admit it! LOL > >From: zuzu22@webtv.net > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > worlds better than Fancy Feast. But since you are a Hill's Hater, you'll never > admit it! LOL I don't care if SD is hand-made by God, the cats won't touch it, so how about recommending another brand they'll actually eat? :) Of the following, please pick one that you think is best for my cats: 1. Higher-quality dry [*] only 2. Lower-quality wet primary with HQ dry as a snack overnight 3. HQ dry primary with LQ wet as a snack in the evening 4. LQ wet only * higher-quality dry my cats will eat include Pro Plan, Royal Canin, Chicken Soup Cat Lovers, Nutro Natural Choice, Nutro Max Cat, Purina One Signature-- ~kaeli~ I love God. It's His fanclub that I can't stand. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli, Have faith. Just because it's not happening quickly doesn't mean you won't succeed. I have dealt with this too and the article you read also has very good tips for transitioning from dry to wet. I have a cat I rescued early this year and I could not get her to eat any wet food so I had to start out giving her high quality dry. I just kept trying and finally I got her to eat one flavor and over the next few months I just kept adding little bits of this and that and we're at the point now that she's eating 6 different premium canned foods. If you have to do more dry and less canned right now, then that's what you have to do. Just keep sneaking in a little more canned and a little less dry and changing the flavors so they get used to *not* eating the exact same thing every day. It's difficult to undo things sometimes, but it is not impossible! :-) Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Kaeli, > Have faith. Just because it's not happening quickly doesn't mean you [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Megan Yeah, I'm probably expecting things to go too fast, huh? For now, I'm just not going to free-feed dry any more and keep trying different cans to see what they'll eat. If I find one they love, I'll give them that consistently enough to get them mostly off dry then start mixing it in with more wet flavors to get them up to a higher-quality. I do want to try the Wellness, though (you were right, I had it confused with another brand). Maybe they'll really like it. *crosses fingers* Signature-- ~kaeli~ Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead-to-know basis. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", kaeli <tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net> artfully composed this message within <news:MPG.1bb35cd3e23472df98a133@nntp.lucent.com> on 16 Sep 2004: > Yeah, I'm probably expecting things to go too fast, huh? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > confused with another brand). Maybe they'll really like it. > *crosses fingers* Kaeli, I got Shadow converted in the beginning by not leaving any dry food out at night and by morning he was hungry enough to eat whatever I gave him. It was a process because at first he wouldn't eat enough of the canned to sustain him for the day while I was at work, and leave him without food until dinner (canned) and since he had a history of fatty liver, I'd leave him with enough dry food to make up for the canned he wouldn't eat. It took several weeks to several months to get on this feeding regime. I never got him fully off of dry food, but it was down to about 1/8 cup per day, and about 1/2 cup canned 2x per day. Still too much food for him, but with his chronic diarrhea, he was persistently hungry. OTOH, I'm battling this problem with my former feral Bonnie. I had given up for a while to get her on canned food because of the same fears you have - she'd rather starve than eat canned food. She won't touch canned food and since I'm gone for about 12 hours per day at work and the commute, she'd literally go nearly 24 hours without food if I let her skip breakfast because she won't eat what I give her. I have to remember that it won't kill her to go that long, but it's really hard. I'm back on a mission to convert her to canned, or at least 50/50 so tonight when I fed her dinner I wet a few of the bits with water so they'd become soft, and something other than the crunchy stuff she considers food. She outsmarted me by eating around the wet ones and waiting a while until they dried, then went and ate them. SignatureCheryl > Kaeli, I got Shadow converted in the beginning by not leaving any > dry food out at night and by morning he was hungry enough to eat > whatever I gave him. They're NEVER hungry enough to eat some of what we've tried, much like your Bonnie. > she'd literally go nearly 24 hours > without food if I let her skip breakfast because she won't eat what > I give her. Yup, when I offered nothing but the premium canned, they went *36 hours* before I broke down and gave them dry. I felt like the most horrible person ever, might I add. > when I fed her dinner I wet a > few of the bits with water so they'd become soft, and something > other than the crunchy stuff she considers food. This sounds like something to try! First just a little water, then gradually softer and softer... Thanks for the idea! Signature-- ~kaeli~ The Bermuda Triangle got tired of warm weather. It moved to Finland. Now Santa Claus is missing. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", kaeli <tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net> artfully composed this message within <news:MPG.1bb4aba290e6153398a139@nntp.lucent.com> on 17 Sep 2004: >> when I fed her dinner I wet a >> few of the bits with water so they'd become soft, and something [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks for the idea! LOL I hope you have better luck than I have. SignatureCheryl > I do want to try the Wellness, though (you were right, I had it confused with > another brand). Maybe they'll really like it. > *crosses fingers* Update: they hated the Wellness canned. And the Innova. They liked the Wellness dry, though. Picky a.s cats. *hurumph* Signature-- ~kaeli~ Acupuncture is a jab well done. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > I do want to try the Wellness, though (you were right, I had it confused with > > another brand). Maybe they'll really like it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Picky a.s cats. > *hurumph* Well, about a week after I switched Cheeks from her FF to Nutro, etc. she began wheezing and I found bumps on her skin. The vet was right in her case--she is allergic to a bunch of things, hence the asthma and the linear granuloma. He said that even though the FF is crap food, if she thrives on it (no asthma attacks even though no Depo shot for six months, no bumps anywhere after I began feeding it to her as the main part of her diet) I should stick with what works. > I don't care if SD is hand-made by God, the cats won't touch it, so how about > recommending another brand they'll actually eat? :) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > * higher-quality dry my cats will eat include Pro Plan, Royal Canin, Chicken > Soup Cat Lovers, Nutro Natural Choice, Nutro Max Cat, Purina One I managed to miss how old your cats are. If they're fairly young, I would suggest mostly high quality dry over mostly low quality wet, and maybe you'll be able to afford a premium canned that they like, by the time they're older. If they're senior kittizens like mine are, any of your above choices could exascerbate problems, so I don't know what to suggest, other than trying to cut the budget somewhere else to afford premium canned. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > I managed to miss how old your cats are. If they're fairly young, > I would suggest mostly high quality dry over mostly low quality wet, > and maybe you'll be able to afford a premium canned that they like, > by the time they're older. Rowan and Isis are 4 and 3, respectively. We aren't sure about Jeffrey, but we think he's around 4 also. I'm just going to keep trying and stop leaving dry down constantly so at least they're definitely hungry when I put the wet down. If they don't touch the wet for more than an hour, I'll put a bit of dry down for them. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Murphy's Law #3020: Quality assurance doesn't. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net >> The low quality wet food is worse. Why would one want to feed high levels >of >> salt (as one example) in a poor quality wet food? >Because I'm worried about them not drinking enough and getting kidney and >bladder problems. Yet, high levels of salt will contribute to kidney disease, heart disease, and FLUTD. Hopefully that would be counteracted by the increased water intake, but do you want to take that chance? >I have lost 3 cats over the course of my life to such problems. I'm afraid of > >losing another. I'm sorry about your losses. :( > >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > FLUTD. Hopefully that would be counteracted by the increased water intake, but > do you want to take that chance? No, of course not. How do I know how much salt is in the food? > >I have lost 3 cats over the course of my life to such problems. I'm afraid of > > > >losing another. > > I'm sorry about your losses. :( Thanks. I still miss them. Signature-- ~kaeli~ It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> Yet, high levels of salt will contribute to kidney disease, heart disease, >and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >No, of course not. >How do I know how much salt is in the food? You'd have to call the manufacturer and ask them what the sodium levels are on a DRY MATTER BASIS. Do that with several foods and compare them. If the manufacturer doesn't know the levels, then you know to avoid that food altogether. There are a lot of cat food companies that are more concerned with selling a lot of cat food, than are concerned with feline nutrition. Have they had their teeth checked recently? Mine were avoiding canned because they had some bad teeth, and the wet food was probably painful to eat. They would just swallow the dry whole, so it didn't bother them as much. (again, not noticed by the previous quack vets, even though both quack partners looked in their mouths -- and shown to me by my new vet, a couple of cracked and cavitied teeth painful enough that the cats cried when they were touched.) You might try pureeing the canned food with a wand blender (a suggestion I got from Megan), so that it's like babyfood, and they can lick it up. If they don't like the texture, or it's hurting their teeth, this might help. > Yeah, that's where we're at right now, except we're finding out what they'll > eat and won't eat. I don't want to starve the poor things (esp. my overweight > male, who I worry about fatty liver if he just stops eating), so if they > don't eat morning or night wet feeding, I leave dry down overnight. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > Have they had their teeth checked recently? Jeffrey has horrid gums (his teeth are whole and have almost no tartar, but his gums were infected when I adopted him and he lost one tiny front tooth before I got it under control) which I try to care for (they've gotten better with brushing and some gel stuff the vet gave me), but he crunches his dry food. He was in pretty bad shape when I adopted him, as he came from a cat collector with 70 cats. His fur was all patchy and he was skinny and he had bad teeth, infected ears, infected gums, and a URI. He's grown back all his fur and put on more weight than I really wanted him to. *grin* His ears took a long time to clear up, and I have to keep them very clean (I almost never have to clean the girls' ears, but his need done every other day). His gums still bleed when I brush his teeth, but they aren't all red, inflamed, and gross like they were. His teeth are pretty much tartar-free; just a little yellow now. Poor little man. And he still loves me, after all I had to do to him. Go figure. :) The girls' teeth are good, as I raised them and made sure to brush regularly. They crunch up the food, too. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Signature-- ~kaeli~ A hangover is the wrath of grapes. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace |
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