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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / September 2004Indoor cat..quality of life?
I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best friend should be confined to quarters I have been reading the many compelling arguments in favour of keeping a cat inside---the safety angle, longevity cf to the free-rangers, etc. I know there is much one can do to make indoor living tolerable to a cat, such as cat tree, cat grass munchies, toys, etc. But I am still wondering what the consensus here might be to just how pleasurable life really is for an indoor cat, Or am I just anthropomorphizing human traits onto a cat, and they really don't need as much stimuli in a day as we do, especially when they sleep 15-plus hours out of every 24? :) What about the second-cat-to-keep-the -first-one-company option? Thanks for your input. Blair Thompson North Vancouver, B.C. > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Blair Thompson > North Vancouver, B.C. Well, I DEFINITELY recommend two. I think they can be quite happy if they can look out windows. If you own your own place, I would definitely also build an enclosure or if you have a porch screen it in. That is the best of all worlds. > But I am still wondering what the consensus here might be to >just how pleasurable life really is for an indoor cat, Or am I just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks for your input. Oh, sure it can be a great life for a cat. It's easier when you raise them as kittens indoors--although I have a former street cat/stray who refuses to even sniff the outdoors. . Most important, I think, is having at least a pair of cats. Secondary, but still important, is additional stimuli like you mentioned; toys, cat trees. Harness training I hear can be very successful if you choose to let your cat have supervised time outdoors. I think an enclosure is an excellent compromise, too. Sherry > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Blair Thompson > North Vancouver, B.C. My cats are indoor-only cats; has been that way since the 1970's. In my case, because of traffic. Sorry to tohear of your cat's demise, due to the local coyotes. That would also lead me to trethink the inside-outside issue, in your case. I'm lucky in that this house has a floor-to-ceiling screened porch, which the cats can access whenever I open the door that leads to it. In the summer, that's daily, but they also go out for short amounts of time in the winter. My apt. where I first lived did not have that amenity, but still, there are always windowsills which cats always enjoy, for safe viewing of the great outdoors. Cats still get their exercise - whether playing w/ toys - things to bat around, empty boxes - esp. if they have some tissue paper in them!, running up & down the stairs, whatever... Cathy > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hours out of every 24? :) What about the second-cat-to-keep-the > -first-one-company option? They have great lives! No danger, plenty of fun with toys and each other, lots of food. YES get another cat, a litter mate would be perfect or a mother and kitten! > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hours out of every 24? :) What about the second-cat-to-keep-the > -first-one-company option? Your decision must be made very carefully because your cats' lives depend on it. The risk-to-benifit ratio must be carefully evaluated. Maybe these will help you decide: http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm http://maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm Phil > But I am still wondering what the consensus here might be to > just how pleasurable life really is for an indoor cat, Or am I just > anthropomorphizing human traits onto a cat, and they really don't need > as much stimuli in a day as we do, especially when they sleep 15-plus > hours out of every 24? :) What about the second-cat-to-keep-the > -first-one-company option? Growing up, we always let our cats out. After I had a cat disappear, a second cat suffered an unknown injury (or poisoning) that caused seizures, blindness and partial paralysis, and found out that my half grown cat had killed a rat that was as big as he was, I decided I couldn't take it any more. My present cat has never been outside except in a carrier. We live in a large, three story Victorian with a basement which has lots of great hiding and climbing places (due to the fact that we accumulate stuff). My housemate also has a cat so they have each other when there's no one at home (which is rare). I think my cat seems pretty happy. I don't think that she would even like the outside very much as she hates uneven surfaces, won't even walk over a pile of laundry on the floor, she'll walk around it instead. They have toys, multiple scratching surfaces, multiple litter boxes. The other cat is a bit neurotic but it mostly revolves around his extreme attachment to his person. He was neglected as a kitten and was rescued. I don't think his occasional weirdness has anything to do with his being an indoor cat. The other cat used to be an indoor/outdoor cat and occasionally tries to get out, succeeds once in a great while, then panics and hides under the nearest porch. As we live on a busy street, in a neighborhood were lots of people do let their cats run lose and there has been a small colony of ferals nearby, I wouldn't ever consider letting my cat out here. If I were you, I probably wouldn't be able to bear the thought of losing another cat to a coyote. But you have to make your own choices. Good luck, Meg We currently have 4 indoor cats - all of them were feral when we coaxed and/or trapped them and brought them indoors. The oldest is 8, then 6 and 2 two year olds. Only the most recent addition even considers going near an open door. He's only been in the house 3 weeks - we named him Mr. Lucky and he missed hurricane Charley by 5 days and now he's safe and dry for hurricane Frances. Think about fleas, ticks, disease, snakes, gators, fox and bobcat in our area and know the cats stay indoors - they will adjust and live healthy, happy lives - afterall they rule! > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Blair Thompson > North Vancouver, B.C. I think that keeping a cat inside is OK if the cat has always been an indoor only cat and doesn't know any different. I would also suggest getting two cats rather than one as they will then keep each other company when your not there. I do find that if you read this newsgroup regularly, you will find a higher incidence of things like, cats on Prozac (??), inappropriate illimination issues, stress related behavior, e.g. fur biting, among indoor only cats. I would like to stress that this is my perception and it may just be because there are a high proportion of Americans who post here and they are more likely to keep their cats indoor only. Having said that, there are also the obvious risks for an indoor / outdoor cat too so neither situation is perfect. I would say that if you have already had one cat killed by coyotes it's probably not such a good idea to let any future cats outside, or at the very least, not between dusk and dawn, which I have been led to believe is when coyotes are most active. Could build some kind of outside enclosure for you cat? That could be an option. Jeannie > > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > there are a high proportion of Americans who post here and they are more > likely to keep their cats indoor only. Having an indoor only cat is more challenging for the owner. You have to provide opportunities for stimulation. You have the litterbox cleanup chores and scratching issues that are either non-existent or minimal with an indoor-outdoor cat. Furnishings will take more of a beating as energetic cats will do their daily laps whether outside or inside. From my personal observation (not scientific study so take it for what it's worth) if a kitten hasn't been outside they aren't really keen to get there. I got my Tigger as a kitten and had to pick her up and put her outside to get her there. At first she just hovered near the back door. I bottle fed Boots when we found his litter in my son's wrecked car last fall. When he was a few months old I thought I'd try taking him out for supervised play time (he's a maniac in the house). He was petrified and literally freaked out. He now freaks if you carry him anywhere near a door and will hide if someone that doesn't live here comes in the back door (but not if they come in the front - I had carried him out the back door). He doesn't want to go out there. He spends time in the bow window and will "chase" birds and squirrels from there. Mabel, Fluffer, Ralf and Isabelle had all been outside and were older when we adopted them. The only one who demonstrated displeasure with being inside was Mabel who was willing to claw her way through drywall to get out. There are a number of people posting to this group who adopted older cats, feral cats and strays who wander in. These are cats "with a past" and it's not terribly surprising that they may have issues. These aren't the cute pet store domesticated cats. That might account for some of the Prozac. I'm wondering what the let your cats outdoors people think the benefit is. Is it the fresh air and exercise? If so that can be accomplished by building a large outside enclosure or having a screened in porch. If the point of going outside is to let the cat be unfettered, have the freedom to wander about and interact with the wildlife (translated chase/kill birds, mice and rabbits), then the enclosure or screened porch only increased the sq. footage of the "cage". I don't claim to know what is right for a cat. I personally won't force a cat to stay inside only if they indicate they hate it nor will I force a cat outside who doesn't want to go. I've only had one cat who indicated she hated being confined indoors so the rest stay inside because it's safer where I live. I've cleared off the window sills and have a large cat tree, tons of toys and more litter boxes than I'd like to think about. W > I'm wondering what the let your cats outdoors people think the benefit is. > Is it the fresh air and exercise? If so that can be accomplished by building [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rabbits), then the enclosure or screened porch only increased the sq. > footage of the "cage". It's certainly a good idea for people to try to build an enclosure or screen a porch for their cats. I don't think the Inside Cat Only brigade emphasises this enough ( I don't mean the people on this group !) to the average pet owner and the average pet owner might not have enough knowledge to keep their cat from being bored and frustrated. It's easier with dogs , you can take them to the park and they don't seem to mind doing the repetitious games such as catch the ball , my dog will do this twenty times and not be bored but cats are far to uintelligent and clever for that. My cat goes outside (daytime only), she is about 5 now and she doesn't go far from the garden . If I had to, I would fence the garden to keep her in but I don't feel she is at risk, though obviously, nothing in life is certain. She has the choice, in bad weather no way will she go out . So if she has a choice that's less frustration for her. When she goes out , she likes to patrol her patch and catch up on whose been visiting and what other animals have been in the garden , she will sit and watch at certain places for mice and maybe stalk the feral pigeons. This gives her a work ethic which is satisfying and stimulating, after that it's nap time in the shed . I have always had rabbits and guinea pigs and they attract mice, so her job is to keep the mice population down, other wise I would be over run . As to killing birds and mice and rabbits , so do hunters, dogs, farmers , people poison mice that come into their houses etc. Why make the cat out to be the baddie? If you eat meat or wear leather, that means an animal has died for you; should you become a vegan? When a cat goes out, *every* day is different. Cats are very intelligent and it's harder to replicate that indoors though maybe not impossible:). Alison >I think that keeping a cat inside is OK if the cat has always been an indoor >only cat and doesn't know any different. I Sometimes they'll surprise you. I would imagine a former roaming stray would be miserable suddenly indoors. Not always so. My Biskit will hardly stick her nose outside. She knows the great outdoors isn't what it's cracked up to be. :-) Sherry In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Sep 2004: >>I think that keeping a cat inside is OK if the cat has always >>been an indoor only cat and doesn't know any different. I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Biskit will hardly stick her nose outside. She knows the great > outdoors isn't what it's cracked up to be. :-) Gotta agree with Sherry. Of my two, one was a stray (now about 3- 1/2 years, had him nearly 2-1/2 years now), the other was feral the first 4-5 months of her life (she's now about 1-1/2 years old). Neither try to get out, but I do have an enclosure in the back yard which the older (former stray) loves and only goes to that door to go out, and "out" isn't available to him all the time, mostly just on weekends. The former feral has no interest in "out" at all, but is slowly warming to the idea of the enclosure and will sit out there for a while.  SignatureCheryl > > I recently lost my guy to the coyotes. I live adjacent to a > > forested area where they are active, so I am thinking my next best [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > there are a high proportion of Americans who post here and they are more > likely to keep their cats indoor only. It may also be that the perople who come here do so because they're ecxperiencing a problem. IOW, if a cat has no health or bewhavioral issues, then a person is less likely to seek out the ng. Therefore, the statistics can appear to be skewed. Cathy > Having said that, there are also the obvious risks for an indoor / outdoor > cat too so neither situation is perfect. I would say that if you have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 22/07/04 > I think that keeping a cat inside is OK if the cat has always been an indoor > only cat and doesn't know any different. This doesn't have to be true. I adopted a 100% outside-living stray cat in '99. I thought that I might have to gradually accustom him to being an indoor-only cat by letting him out during the daytime, bringing him at night, & then gradually shortening his daytime outdoor hours until he was 100% indoors. Instead, he went from 100% outdoor to 100% indoor with no probs. And he never even begs to go out. So, one never knows! Cathy blair thompson blairt@abcomm.ca writes >I recently lost my guy to the >coyotes. I live adjacent to a >forested area where they are >active, so I am thinking my next >best friend should be confined to >quarters. For some insane reason, many people with cats with fight to the death for their right to let their cats roam among wild animals, toxic substances/poisons, heavy traffic, etc. > blair thompson blairt@abcomm.ca writes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > right to let their cats roam among wild animals, toxic substances/poisons, > heavy traffic, etc. Probably for the same reason that many people are adamant that the only really loved cat's are the ones that are indoor only which in my opinion carries it's own set of unique problems. It depends on your situation and in the O.P.'s case, I think I would err on the side of caution and keep the cat in with a secure cat enclosure if possible...or move house. Jeannie (...) > For some insane reason, many people with cats with fight to the death for > their right to let their cats roam among wild animals, toxic > substances/poisons, heavy traffic, etc. For some insane reason, many people insist that their cats should be taken out of the environment for which they were designed, and forever imprisoned indoors. These people typically have no appreciation that different places have different hazards, and that many places have relatively few of same. Such people seem incapable of performing the most basic consideration of quality of life, and are often happy to coop up many cats within (for example), a small apartment. These people will equate access to the outdoors with a death sentence, somehow ignoring the millions of cats that live long, healthy, full lives with outdoor access. And do the obese, corn-fed indoor cats live on, fatly. Gosh, inflammatory language is so tedious, wouldn't you say? Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Gosh, inflammatory language is so tedious, wouldn't you say? Not nearly as tiresome as your sarcasm. Do you mean to tell me that you live in Chapel Hill and let your cats roam? Rest assured that cats were not "designed" to live outside in the modern urban world. > Steve. > "> Not nearly as tiresome as your sarcasm. Do you mean to tell me that > you live in Chapel Hill and let your cats roam? Rest assured > that cats were not "designed" to live outside in the modern > urban world. I'm sorry Mary, but I nearly wrote a post along the same lines as Steve. I found Lusksat post really annoying and inflammatory to those who let their cats out. If this was a US/Canadian moderated forum especially for indoor cats then I would understand the response and accept that , but this is an unmodertated cat newsgroup for anybody and everybody regardless. We all feel strongly about certain subjects and want to push those ideas and in an unmoderated newsgroup there's bound to be insults and sarcasm . If Luskats and anyone writes posts like that then there are bound to be answers like Steve's. That's newsgroups for you:) Of course people should be warned of the dangers and encouraged to keep their cat in or limit its time outside, if it is necessary. What really upsets me is seeing posts on forums from people who react to their cats natural behaviour like scratching and jumping on surfaces by shouting at them , spraying them with water and/or vinegar, throwing things at them , picking them up and shaking them, hissing in their faces tapping their noses, using shock/IV collars on them and matter of factly talking about disciplining them and finding these methods totally acceptable without even bothering to find or use kinder and better ways. Alison alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk writes > I found Lusksat post really >annoying and inflammatory to >those who let their cats out. This subject is a parallel to a music newsgroup post asking whether it was The Beatles, Elvis or The Rolling Stones who were the greatest. In other words.....this topic has been discussed, analyzed and brought back for as long as this newsgroup existed. It's not a new subject and no new ground has been broken. Those in the UK feel it's ok to let a cat wander about. Those in the US..experts...the majority of pet people, etc..feel is it best to keep the cat inside. Frankly, there have been a high number of posts from people who mourned a pet who died outside from: a car..poisons..wild animals..dogs..and a significant number of posts from those who lost cats (outside cats never returned home). Quotes and references have been posted time and time and time and time again. Animal Planet's "Emergency Vets", a very long running show, has aired the tragic death of cats (due to reasons above) almost every episode. In the mid 1970's - before I knew better - I had my cat go in/outdoors..He was hit by a car. I lived in a very quiet residential neighborhood. Thankfully, he survived. If one wants to gamble with his/her life..who cares...but don't gamble with your pets' lives. >alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk writes > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >who died outside from: a car..poisons..wild animals..dogs..and a significant >number of posts from those who lost cats (outside cats never returned home) It's isn't real helpful to harangue and condemn someone for letting a cat out who's brokenhearted over just losing it. Which you do constantly. It always makes me wonder if you don't honestly think the mourning cat owner in question is *already* feeling guilty and bad enough and hasn't "learned their lesson." Sherry sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) writes >It's isn't real helpful to harangue >and condemn someone for letting a cat out >who's brokenhearted over just losing it. Since - once again - there are a significant number of posts from people who are mourning, I see little validity in posting a continual message of ..oh, well...sorry..but whatever! In this most recent response, I did start off with expressing my sorrow...I then posted the concept of not repeating that type of situation so there will not be a repeat of that heartbreak. > sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) > writes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are mourning, I see little validity in posting a continual message of ..oh, > well...sorry..but whatever! You know, I get so upset when we hear about cats dying because they are exposed to danger--I have been tempted to express more than just condolences. But I never do because I know how bad it feels to lose a loved one. I don't know how it feels to lose a loved one and be at fault. I just can't do that to anyone. And I am not exactly the poster child for self control. If I did it--even if Cheeks just ran out the door and got hit because I wasn't quick enough--I suppose I would survive but I would have a really hard time looking at my face in the mirror. >You know, I get so upset when we hear about cats dying because they are >exposed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >but >I would have a really hard time looking at my face in the mirror. No, you're not the poster child for self control. Neither am I. But you just don't get any satisfaction out of berating anybody who's grieving. You're smart enough to know that's not even productive or helpful, it's just mean and nasty. NY Writer isn't. And your comment, (god forbid) about Cheeks running out the door...well, that exact thing happened on alt.cats. Only the cat got lost, not killed. and NYWriter was right there, showing her a.s but not offering any practical advice, as usual. Sherry > No, you're not the poster child for self control. Neither am I. But you just don't get any satisfaction out of berating anybody who's grieving. You're smart enough to know that's not even productive or helpful, it's just mean and nasty. I read this as "EVEN you" and did not even object to it before I noticed that I had put the "EVEN" in! I know I can be nasty, but I hope never mean, in the true sense of the word. e.g. petty, small, vindictive. Did you go see my girls? You don't have to say they're anything special to look at but I want you to see them. You even get to see Cheeky's tonsils. :) http://photos.yahoo.com/crazyaboutfelines. >I read this as "EVEN you" and did not even object to it before I noticed >that I had put the "EVEN" in! I know I can be nasty, but I hope never mean, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://photos.yahoo.com/crazyaboutfelines. Aww. Cute. I didn't look till now...remember I'm on rural dial-up and it's s-l-o-w. Sometimes I think it connects at 1 baud. So I don't always look at pics unless I have a while to sit and wait:-) Cheeky looks a lot like my Jacky Cat (RB). My favorite one is the Happy Cat. Your cat perch is cool, I've never seen one oval shaped. Where'd you get it? Sherry > > http://photos.yahoo.com/crazyaboutfelines. > Aww. Cute. I didn't look till now...remember I'm on rural dial-up and it's s-l-o-w. I did not realize that. Is it faster for someone to just send you photos? >Your cat perch is cool, I've never > seen one oval shaped. Where'd you get it? My sister got if for me for Christmas. I think she got it at Petsmart. >> Aww. Cute. I didn't look till now...remember I'm on rural dial-up and it's >s-l-o-w. > >I did not realize that. Is it faster for someone to just send you photos? Well, yeah, actually e-mail photos download much faster than it takes to access a website. It all depends on the time of day, too. New continents can form before a website with many pictures loads. I hate it. They keep promising DSL will come out here, but so far not. Directway is an option, but I won't pay $600 for their equipment fee. Internet is pretty much just a toy for me and I just can't justify that much $$$$. Sherry > >> Aww. Cute. I didn't look till now...remember I'm on rural dial-up and it's > >s-l-o-w. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > $600 for their equipment fee. Internet is pretty much just a toy for me and I > just can't justify that much $$$$. Well if I ever master my digital camera and get great shots I will send them directly to you. Thanks for taking the time to look at my girls. To:Sherry (sriddles@aol.comkitty ) Gel a life. Constantly including a former ID that was used in a feline newsgroup is a very misguided thing. Do you base your life on misguided actions? If you post a response to those who have let their pets out only to have the cat die under the means discussed in the posts, I will gladly use it. My purpose isn't to hang those people on a rail, it's the constant frustration from reading about hundreds of people who post about the deaths...the people all over the USA..the UK and beyond who let their cats out - who are over 21 and should know better...over 35 and should know better..over 50 and should know better. I also protest against Donald Trump's multi billion dollar golf course and the millions of starving people in third world countries...the cruelty against carriage horses (let the drivers switch places with the horses!!!) and many other issues. One must pick his/her issues. There's a zillion of them.. snipped I also protest against Donald Trump's multi billion dollar golf >course and the millions of starving people in third world countries...the >cruelty against carriage horses (let the drivers switch places with the >horses!!!) and many other issues. One must pick his/her issues. There's a >zillion of them.. Exactly how do you "protest"? I think the crux here is that to you, it's words on a screen. I've stood across the counter from a lot of people who have lost their pets in accidents, illnesses, preventable deaths, non-preventable death. Just imagine the total heartbreak and devastation someone is experiencing at that moment they are writing the post. If they stood in person across from you, you would not attack them or berate them for "letting the cat out in the first place." It's not only cruel, but stupid and an ineffective way to educate anyone. How many people are you pompous enough to believe read your words, then say "Well, gee. I'm glad she said that. Now I know never to let another cat out. I"d have never figured that one out." Sheesh. Sherry > You know, I get so upset when we hear about cats dying because they are exposed to danger--I have been tempted to express more than just condolences. But I > never do because I know how bad it feels to lose a loved one. I don't know how it feels to lose a loved one and be at fault. I just can't do that to anyone. And I am not exactly the poster child for self control. If I did it--even if Cheeks just ran out the door and got hit because I wasn't quick enough--I suppose I would survive but > I would have a really hard time looking at my face in the mirror. Just trying to fix the word wrap--hands down the worst thing about IE. Where is Arjun Ray? ;) >Since - once again - there are a significant number of posts from people who >are mourning, I see little validity in posting a continual message of ..oh, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >of >situation so there will not be a repeat of that heartbreak. As much power as you think your words might have, let me clue you in....they don't. And if it hadn't occurred to you yet, you didn't invent the "cause and effect" theory. Grieving cat owners have already figured that one out. You're doing nothing but being deliberately hurtful. Sherry >> This subject is a parallel to a music newsgroup post asking whether it was The > Beatles, Elvis or The Rolling Stones who were the greatest.>>> The Beatles, of course! >> Those in the UK feel it's ok to let a cat wander about. Those in the > US..experts...the majority of pet people, etc..feel is it best to keep the cat > inside.>>> Not every one in the UK lets their cat out , but perhaps the majority do. If the majority of people feel its best to keep their pet inside then they should do so , but this Keep Your Cat indoors campaign, puts tremendous pressure on people and make them feel guilty for letting them out even for a short while . I understand the motives of vets for wanting to keep cats indoors as they see the cats that have been hit by cars but the bird socities , I doubt their motives. They're not concern about people's cats, they don't even want cats to have garden access. They're concern about birds and some of their "facts " are a bit dodgy. Thye RSPB in the UK says that cats aren't responsible for the decline of sparrows, at least they're honest . It was fashionable to blame the cats for bird and mammel decline thanks to the mammel society but this year they're blaming the TV garden makeover show encouraging people to put decking in their gardens instead of lawns etc Some people only seem to be concerned about the birds when it comes to the indoor/outdoor cat argument, hand sup here how many peopel drive gas guzzling SUVs that pollute the atmosphere and destoy the flies and insects that the birds need to survuive and feed their babies on. > Frankly, there have been a high number of posts from people who mourned a pet > who died outside from: a car..poisons..wild animals..dogs..and a significant > number of posts from those who lost cats (outside cats never returned home). > Quotes and references have been posted time and time and time and time again. > Animal Planet's "Emergency Vets", a very long running show, has aired the > tragic death of cats (due to reasons above) almost every episode.>>. Are we likely to hear from people who let their cats out and have never had a problem? On this group and some other mainly US groups , people get flamed for just mentioning they let their cat out . I would advise any one who lets their cat out to have it microchipped, more cats would be returned if they were. Maybe they were taken to animal control by people who believe that any cat let out must have a bad owner, I've seen posts telling people to do this. Indoor cats escape and panic and are never seen again > In the mid 1970's - before I knew better - I had my cat go in/outdoors..He was > hit by a car. I lived in a very quiet residential neighborhood. Thankfully, he > survived. >>> I've had indoor/outdoor cat my whole life, they were always kept in at night. I've never had a cat die or get lost. They all lived well in their teens. Kim, my present cat is about 5/6y . > If one wants to gamble with his/her life..who cares...but don't gamble with > your pets' lives.> Cats aren't 100% safe indoors either. What percentage of indoor cats do you reckon end up in shelters and PTS or dumped somewhere? I expect there are many people in both countries that let their cat out and don't care about it , they don't bother to speuter/vaccinate etc but you can't judge all indoor/outdoor cat owners by them. Alison > > "> Not nearly as tiresome as your sarcasm. Do you mean to tell me > that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm sorry Mary, but I nearly wrote a post along the same lines as > Steve. No need to apologize for your opinions. I notice that Steve did not answer my question, meaning of course that Steve, who does indeed live in Chapel Hill (near where I live) allows his cats to roam. Well, they're his cats, but, once again, I don't want to hear about it when one of them gets hit by a car, ripped open by a dog, or poisoned by an insane neighbor. > I found Lusksat post really annoying and inflammatory to those who > let their cats out. If this was a US/Canadian moderated forum especially for indoor cats > then I would understand the response and accept that , but this is an > unmodertated cat newsgroup for anybody and everybody regardless. Sorry, I don't recall the post you're talking about. > We all feel strongly about certain subjects and want to push those > ideas and in an unmoderated newsgroup there's bound to be insults and > sarcasm . If Luskats and anyone writes posts like that then there are > bound to be answers like Steve's. That's newsgroups for you:) Whatever. Steve lives in the US in an urban area. That's what worries me. > Of course people should be warned of the dangers and encouraged to > keep their cat in or limit its time outside, if it is necessary. Anyone who has to be warned that allowing their cats to roam means opening them up to ANYTHING that comes their way are truly and irrevokably stupid. You love them or you don't. You keep them safe or you don't. It's your choice. But I DON'T want to hear about it when "Missy got hit by a car!" "Muffy has a dog bite!" etc. > What really upsets me is seeing posts on forums from people who > react to their cats natural behaviour like scratching and jumping on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > finding these methods totally acceptable without even bothering to > find or use kinder and better ways. So let's see. It's okay to allow them out and unprotected, but not to yell at them. Interesting. Here we go again with this old chestnut.....Whether you do or do not let your cat out is not a situation where the "one size fits all" rule applies. In my opinion, if you live in a city...it's probably best to keep the cat inside, if one of your cats has already been killed by coyotes...probably not such a good idea to let another cat roam, if you live somewhere more rural, assess the dangers and make a decision based on your own situation. Jeannie > Here we go again with this old chestnut.....Whether you do or do not let your cat out is not a situation where the "one size fits all" rule applies. > In my opinion, if you live in a city...it's probably best to keep the cat inside, if one of your cats has already been killed by coyotes...probably not such a good idea to let another cat roam, if you live somewhere more rural, assess the dangers and make a decision based on your own situation. > Jeannie And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out *anywhere* regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything* that happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable. > And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out *anywhere* > regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything* that > happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable. Cat's aren't 100% safe indoors either. What I find strange is people saying you must keep your cat indoors and finding out those same people have have cats die indoors , their dogs have killed them or have died in a fire . I wonder how many cats have escaped and panicked and never been seen again. Alison "Alison" alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk writes > Cat's aren't 100% safe indoors >either...cats die indoors , their >dogs have killed them or have died in a fire . I wonder how many cats >have escaped and panicked and never been seen again. Oh, good grief. If you are trying to correllate a cat dying due to outside situations (poisons, dogs, wild animals, cars, humans,etc) and accidental fires, etc..you fail to realize the latter stems from accidental means and the former from purposeful action from the pet's human guardians. Accidents happen, obviously, but no one is setting fire to one's house. People let their pets out all the time and then sob when their pet dies. Well...I guess 2.2 zillion more incidents need be posted/reported/publicized/aired before the lightbulb goes on. > "Alison" alison@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk > writes [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > zillion more incidents need be posted/reported/publicized/aired before the > lightbulb goes on.>> I'm not trying to "correllate" anything , though perhaps you mean correlate. I'm merely pointing out that you are incorrect to say that cats are safe indoors. Alison > > Here we go again with this old chestnut.....Whether you do or do not let > your cat out is not a situation where the "one size fits all" rule applies. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything* that > happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable. A life without risk is no life at all. Jeannie > A life without risk is no life at all. > > Jeannie Wow. Your cats are really philosophical. Or is it that you, who understand the risks involved, have decided this FOR them, who do NOT understand the risks involved? Cats dying for an assbackwards, wrongheaded "philosophy" that goes something like "be fwee, wild thing, be fwee, feel the wind wustle fwoo you fur" is what I HATE about you outdoor freaks. You *are* the stupid bitch who used to be my friend who told me she would rather her cat live to be just a few years old and get run over than live 20 years happy and safe inside. > > A life without risk is no life at all. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > this FOR them, who do NOT understand the risks > involved? Yes Mary, I have made a shocking educated decision based on the following circumstances. I live in a rural area in the UK. There are no dogs near my house and no natural predators, my neighbours are nice and not likely to attack my cat. My cat is not a child and she doesn't need protecting to the extent that you advocate in my opinion. This doesn't mean I don't love her or that I am some wooly minded, tree hugging hippy, it just means that I don't think there is any need to shield her from risks that just don't exist in the area that I live. > Cats dying for an assbackwards, wrongheaded > "philosophy" that goes something like "be fwee, > wild thing, be fwee, feel the wind wustle fwoo > you fur" is what I HATE about you outdoor > freaks. As I have said many, many times, I am not an "outdoor freak" and I don't think that cats should be allowed to roam in every situation. > You *are* the stupid bitch who used to be my > friend who told me she would rather her cat > live to be just a few years old and get run > over than live 20 years happy and safe > inside. And did the cat get run over or was it perfectly fine and eventually died of old age? My family has owned cats since I was a child, all of which have had free access outdoors. The worst thing that has ever happened is that one of them was bitten by a rat (which didn't lead to death or anything worse that a course of anti-biotics as far as I remember). Yet again, because you don't seem to be taking this point in...I don't believe that you should let your cat go outside no matter what. I do believe that there are some situations where there is no reason to keep a cat indoors all the time. Jeannie "Jeannie" <not@thisaddress.net> wrote> > You *are* the stupid bitch who used to be my > > friend who told me she would rather her cat > > live to be just a few years old and get run [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And did the cat get run over or was it perfectly fine and eventually died of > old age? She has had three cats that were killed under the age of five years. Two were hit by cars and one had its guts ripped out by a dog. She currently has a male that she had declawed. (Her old "be free, wild thing" self would never have done this-- middle age must be giving her sofa precedence over her pets.) I have no idea if she keeps him in because I cannot stand to talk to her. >My family has owned cats since I was a child, all of which have > had free access outdoors. The worst thing that has ever happened is that > one of them was bitten by a rat (which didn't lead to death or anything > worse that a course of anti-biotics as far as I remember). I grew up with all indooor/outdoor cats. Four of them were hit by cars. We found them in the street in 2 instances and under bushes in two others. Two just disappeared--in a rural area in Maryland, lovely horse country. We think the man across the street poisoned them. Inky, my favorite big boy, was in a fight with another cat, and because he loved to roam so much, we didn't see the seriousness of the bite until he returned home one day. By that time he had an infection in his bloodstream. He died at the vet's before he could be treated. > Yet again, because you don't seem to be taking this point in...I don't > believe that you should let your cat go outside no matter what. I do > believe that there are some situations where there is no reason to keep a > cat indoors all the time. You simply said "a life without risk is not worth living." As though your cats told you that. Or, more likely, as though you have decided that for them, and therefore put them at risk. Whatever--you will do what you want because you *can.* You can argue the merits of Kitty running free, wind in his fur, dirt under his paws, and other horseshit all you want. The fact is, when you let them roam they are at the mercy of whatever is out there. You cannot control what is out there. Therefore you cannot know what will happen to your cats. If that's okay with you, then I just really hope it's okay with everyone and everything else out there. They may be many things out there--but they are not safe. Arguing that they are is arguing against simple fact. > "Jeannie" <not@thisaddress.net> wrote> > You *are* the stupid bitch who used > to be my [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > She has had three cats that were killed under the age of five years. > Two were hit by cars and one had its guts ripped out by a dog. Well I should have seen that coming... > She currently has a male that she had declawed. (Her old > "be free, wild thing" self would never have done this-- [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > in Maryland, lovely horse country. We think the man across the > street poisoned them. Why? >Inky, my favorite big boy, was in a fight with > another cat, and because he loved to roam so much, we didn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > believe that there are some situations where there is no reason to keep a > > cat indoors all the time. All very sad but it just proves my point that every situation is different and I have had a totally opposite experience with indoor / outdoor cats. > You simply said "a life without risk is not worth living." Yes... > As though your cats told you that. ???? >Or, more likely, > as though you have decided that for them, and therefore > put them at risk. Of course I decided for my cat! Like I decide what she eats and when she goes to the vet, that's my job as a pet owner... > Whatever--you will do what you want because you > *can.* You can argue the merits of Kitty running > free, wind in his fur, dirt under his paws, and other > horseshit all you want. And you can (and do) argue the merits of keeping you cat indoors with all the stress issues, weight problems furniture damage, inappropriate peeing et al,... >The fact is, when you let > them roam they are at the mercy of whatever is > out there. What exactly do you think is "out there"? There is a badger set near my house, maybe I should protect my cat from badgers... >You cannot control what is out there. > Therefore you cannot know what will happen > to your cats. I don't see what could happen. She *could* be attacked by badgers, she *could* eat a magic mushroom and trip out (yes, they do grow in the field behind my house), she *could* be run over by a 5mph tractor, she *could* be attacked by terrorists, it's just not likely to happen where I live. Back to my point about different circumstances >If that's okay with you, then I > just really hope it's okay with everyone and > everything else out there. They may be many > things out there--but they are not safe. Arguing > that they are is arguing against simple fact. Indoor cats aren't safe either, life isn't safe full stop. What you seem to be saying is that your way is the only way which seems to me to be rather arrogant. For one thing, millions of cat owners in Europe would tend to disagree with you, as I am under the impression that this "keep you cat indoors" mantra is mainly confined to the U.S. I, for one, had never even come across the keep your cat indoors brigade before I started reading the posts in this group. I don't agree with you and you are never going to agree with me (I suspect you may agree with me over your dead body, perhaps). Let's just agree to differ and leave it at that. Jeannie > And you can (and do) argue the merits of keeping you cat indoors with all > the stress issues, An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat - e.g., territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, environmental noises which cause panic - some of those situations generate pure fear. If your cat was so happy outside - he wouldn't come back inside! LOL! He comes inside to relax and get away from all the stress of the outdoors. > weight problems ..are caused by overfeeding - and not whether the cat is indoor/outdoor. I've seen plenty of fat outdoor cats, too > furniture damage, How about tree damage? Scratching is a natrual instinct. Same behavior - but its "acceptable" when its done outside.. inappropriate peeing et > al,... Same behavior - but its "acceptable" when its done outside.. unless your cat pees or craps in your neighbors' garden and gets shot. If your cat eliminates outdoors, how would you know if your cat was developing a urinary tract obstruction, or had blood in his urine, or constipation or melena? Just curious. > An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat - e.g., > territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, > environmental noises which cause panic - some of those situations generate > pure fear.>>> Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas where there is a high cat ratio but the same can be said for indoors cats. This is what Tufts have to say and it also shows how the same facts and evidence can be used to prove opposite views! "The term stress is used by veterinarians to describe the mental and physiological changes that occur in an animal when it perceives something potentially threatening. The threat triggers a flood of activity in the animal's autonomic nervous system--the portion of the nervous system that controls involuntary body functions such as heart rate, blood distribution, and respiration. The biological changes that occur prepare the animal to either combat or escape the challenger. For example, "the pupils dilate to admit as much visual information as possible and tiny muscles in hair follicles contract, causing the cat's fur to stand erect and make the animal look bigger and more intimidating. Mood changes often accompany the physiological changes. The animal may become extremely alert and behave aggressively toward anything (or anyone) that approaches too near." (CATNIP newsletter, Oct. 1995, a publication of Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine <http://www.tufts.edu/vet>) The stress response can be life-saving to cats living in the wild, but the indoor cat rarely needs the protective benefits of this physiological reaction. When the stress is caused by a known foe (eg., another cat) and that challenge has been met with either fight or flight, its fear subsides and its bodily systems revert to their normal "unstressed" state. "But when a cat can't recognize the source of its fear (for instance, random loud noises from the construction workers next door) or can't avoid a recurring source of fear (a resident feline bully), its fear can lead to anxiety...the anxiety can become chronic (recurring or continual)...Because an indoor housecat can neither flee nor confront the source of its anxiety, it cannot easily relieve its stress. The cat must either live with its stress-response or act out behaviors in its stress-response repertoire to try to relieve the anxiety." (CATNIP newsletter, Oct. 1995) A cat that is in a chronic state of anxiety can experience health problems as well as behavioral changes. One indication of stress is high concentrations of the corticosteroids (hormones secreted by the adrenal gland) in the blood and/or urine, particularly cortisol. If large amounts of the hormones persist in reaction to chronic stressors, the result can be illness or even death." > If your cat eliminates outdoors, how would you know if your cat was > developing a urinary tract obstruction, or had blood in his urine, or > constipation or melena? Just curious.>>> Kim has a litter tray but she uses the garden too. The first time she had cystitis, she was acting very unsettled and started doing small wees on plastic so I knew something was wrong. There is usually little warning before this stage and many people, whether they keep cats in or let them go out, fail to recognise their cat has something wrong with it and think it's being bad or dirty. Not everyone lets there cat out 24/7 and lots have litter trays but not everybody. . It would be good if every cat owner provided them for their cats :) Alison > > An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat - > e.g., [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas where > there ....are people, cars, trucks, buses, other animals, loud environmental noises. > but the same can be said for indoors cats. Yes, I agree. Cars, trucks, buses, loud motorcycles speeding through my living room are very stressful for my cats... > This is what Tufts have to say "Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The risk of injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to your cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor existence. Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc, DACVB Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists Clin. Prof., Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine National Consultant, Antech Laboratories Director of Behavior Services, VCA South Shore Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA This is what Cornell has to say: "The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to keep declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves or escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer and healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York. ...and two highly respected fellow countrymen of yours: "In the United States, between 50 and 60 per cent of pet cats are housed indoors. Although data have not been published, this figure is lower for cats in Britain. Some authors feel that cats are best housed indoors, while others believe that the cat's quality of life is enhanced if it is allowed outdoors. Cats that roam freely outdoors may be involved in agonistic encounters with cats and other animals, exposed to infectious disease, injured or killed by motor vehicles, and may go missing." "Providing secure enclosures within a garden, or training a cat to go (with its owner) for walks on a leash, are solutions that enable the cat to benefit from outdoor access without undue risk." Dennis C. Turner, Founder and director of the Institute for Applied Ethology and Animal Psychology in Hirzel, and Senior Research Associate at the Zoology Institute, University of Zurich, Switzerland. Patrick Bateson, Professor of Ethology in the Sub-Department of Animal Behaviour at the University of Cambridge, and Provost of King's College, Cambridge. "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars, being injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors' properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly there are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors." Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, > "The term stress is used by veterinarians to describe the mental and > physiological changes What a coincidence! Human doctors use the same term to describe mental and physiological changes! > > Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas where > > there > > ....are people, cars, trucks, buses, other animals, loud environmental > noises. Cats avoid what they don't like. > > but the same can be said for indoors cats. > > Yes, I agree. Cars, trucks, buses, loud motorcycles speeding through my > living room are very stressful for my cats... BG I should hope not, unless you live in the middle of a motorway :) I don't have cars and trucks etc speeding through my garden but cats have very very good hearing and they can still hear these things whether they are inside or not. The point I'm making is that the website you are taking your facts from about stress and in the info below, has used the same information I have given you above to say that outdoors cats suffer from more stress and inside cats don't. > > This is what Tufts have to say > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe > home." Yet they said indoor cats suffer from stress and causes health problems , strange ! Dr Dodson, the animal behaviourist wrote The book , the cat who cried for help ,especially about indoor cats , and runs the Tufts animal advisory service is aware of the stress related problems that can occur with indoor cats such as pica and the need to improve the indoor cats enviroment. Not every indoor cat has problems and I/O some cats can suffer from behaviour problems too >> This is what Cornell has to say: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center, > College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York. I'm not saying there are no dangers out side and I'm not saying everyone should let their cat out . The statements above are blanket statements and I appreciate the dangers to US cats more than I did when I started posting here. Whether it is cruel to restrict a cat to an exclusively indoor live depends very much on the owner. Cats can pick up ticks and fleas from their owners dogs and from being leash walked or having garden access. My cat is innoculated (not for rabies )and treated for fleas and ticks every month. > ...and two highly respected fellow countrymen of yours: Dennis Turner is American and yes he is highly respected . > "In the United States, between 50 and 60 per cent of pet cats are housed > indoors. Although data have not been published, this figure is lower for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for walks on a leash, are solutions that enable the cat to benefit from > outdoor access without undue risk." The authors Turner and Bateson are referring to that feel cats are best indoors, are Landsburg. 1996, Millar, 1996 and the ones that believe they are best with outside access are O'Farrel and Neville1994, The bit about agonistic encounters etc is Patronek1998 A bit that's conveniently been snipped from the middle (not by you :) ) is "Cats with outdoor access can propbably compensate to some degree for unsatisfactory conditions in their home enviroment (Turner 1995b) and may have more opportunities for exploritory play and predatory behaviour." Turner and Bateson also wrote " Some normal feline behaviours such as marking territory and nocturnal activity only become problematic when they are preformed indoors . Nervertheless, some behaviourists note that cats kept exclusively indoors are over-represented inthe population reffered to them with behavioural problems ( Hubrecht& Turner1998)" "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would > have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying > relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, I don't know this chap but I'm sure cats *can* be happy exclusively indoors but not every cat is. What does he base his statement , "They say they have deeper and more satisfying relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live longer." on? The people who keep their cats in ! The owner might have deeply satifying relationship with her cat but the cat might feel totally smothered and not able to cope with the pressure of its owner's emotional needs. > > "The term stress is used by veterinarians to describe the mental and > > physiological changes > > What a coincidence! Human doctors use the same term to describe mental and > physiological changes! Um, not sure what you're trying to say! Sorry, can you explain:) Alison > > > Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas > where [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cats avoid what they don't like. Hundreds of thousands of cats flattened on US streets and thousands more poisoned annually uequivocally prove your statement untrue. That about sums it up for me. > Hundreds of thousands of cats flattened on US streets and thousands more > poisoned annually uequivocally prove your statement untrue. > > That about sums it up for me. Did you read through the whole post? Alison > > > Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas > where [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cats avoid what they don't like. If they were very successful they wouldn't show up as road kill as often as they do. > An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat - e.g., >territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, >environmental noises which cause panic - some of those situations generate >pure fear. You must mean cats that roam, and probably large distances. Our cats go outside, but they don't run into any of those panic-inducing things. After all, having spent many hours a day sleeping in windows, they are well used to urban sounds whether indoors or out. The most stressful thing they encounter is the neighborhood kids wanting to pet them. >If your cat was so happy outside - he wouldn't come back inside! LOL! He >comes inside to relax and get away from all the stress of the outdoors. Now, that doesn't make sense. Most indoor/outdoor cats want to go both indoors and outdoors. They don't want to spend all their time in either place. >> weight problems > >..are caused by overfeeding - and not whether the cat is indoor/outdoor. >I've seen plenty of fat outdoor cats, too Nevertheless, you surely must be aware that several studies have demonstrated a relationship between feline obesity and being kept indoors. Cats kept indoors exclusively are more likely to become obese than cats that have access to the outdoors. Cats kept exclusively indoors are also likely to spend more hours per day sleeping, which may be why they tend to be fatter. This of course doesn't mean that all indoor cats are fat or that all outdoor cats are slender. But there is a greater prevalence of obesity in cats in the U.S. than in the U.K., where the majority of cats are not kept exclusively indoors. > > An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat - e.g., > >territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, > >environmental noises which cause panic - some of those situations generate > >pure fear. > > You must mean cats that roam, I must mean outdoor cats. Oh that's right.. I forgot - you take your cats out on a leash and consider them outdoor cats! LOL! My cats have an outdoor pen. Are they outdoor cats, too? LOL! > > You must mean cats that roam, > > I must mean outdoor cats. Oh that's right.. I forgot - you take your cats > out on a leash and consider them outdoor cats! LOL! > > My cats have an outdoor pen. Are they outdoor cats, too? LOL! I'd consider my cats indoor/outdoor if I let them in my yard/garden at will and they never left my property. (Actually, I'd not be happy if my cat left my property for all the reasons stated in this thread and I'd not allow them out at will if they did leave.) If I *had* property. And a yard. My cats go on my balcony, does that count? ;) When I was growing up, we had cats that went in the yard (for a couple hours a day or so in nice weather) and never left it and no other cats or dogs ever came in the (fenced) yard. Not all cats that go out feel the need to leave their territory. I consider the farm cats that I know to be outdoor cats, even though they don't roam off the (large) property and have a barn to sleep in. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Never say, "Oops!"; always say, "Ah, interesting!" http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> > You must mean cats that roam, >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I consider the farm cats that I know to be outdoor cats, even though they >don't roam off the (large) property and have a barn to sleep in. >> > You must mean cats that roam, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I'd consider my cats indoor/outdoor if I let them in my yard/garden at will >and they never left my property. So do I, as Phil well knows. Our cats are not exclusively indoor cats; therefore they are indoor/outdoor cats, or cats with access to the outdoors. They are not free-roaming cats, but they are not what most people consider indoor cats either. >(Actually, I'd not be happy if my cat left my property for all the reasons >stated in this thread and I'd not allow them out at will if they did leave.) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I consider the farm cats that I know to be outdoor cats, even though they >don't roam off the (large) property and have a barn to sleep in. Yes, our barn cats were exactly the same. They didn't roam all over the countryside. They stayed in the vicinity of the barn and the yard. I would also consider them outdoor cats, although they didn't really roam. The problem with a lot of the vague statistics one reads comparing indoor cats to outdoor cats is that there is often little distinction made among owned cats that are permitted some time outside, supervised or unsupervised, owned cats that are kept outdoors, and unowned cats that spend all their time outdoors. >Yes, our barn cats were exactly the same. They didn't roam all over the >countryside. They stayed in the vicinity of the barn and the yard. I would >also >consider them outdoor cats, although they didn't really roam. Our barn cats are neutered ferals. They don't ever even come to the house although I'm sure they do hunt. And the house cats (they're older, neutered)...don't roam at all. They mostly lie on top of the car. Bootsie is my only hunter & tree monkey but even she is close enough to come running any time I call them. (When she wants to, that is) Sherry > > And you can (and do) argue the merits of keeping you cat indoors with all > > the stress issues, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If your cat was so happy outside - he wouldn't come back inside! LOL! He > comes inside to relax and get away from all the stress of the outdoors. So the point therefore becomes...why does she continue to go outside? I don't put her outside, I have a cat flap and she comes and goes as she pleases (apart from at night when the cat flap is locked and she stays inside due to all the mice and birds she brings in to kill indoors ) > ..are caused by overfeeding - and not whether the cat is indoor/outdoor. > I've seen plenty of fat outdoor cats, too True, but an outdoor cat is going to get more exercise than the indoor variety so overfeeding is mitigated > > furniture damage, > > How about tree damage? Scratching is a natrual instinct. Same behavior - > but its "acceptable" when its done outside.. Exactly my point...it is acceptable cat behaviour but becomes unacceptable in a human environment, hence the problems. I'm not sure how trees geel about that, but the ones near me seem to be bearing up OK > inappropriate peeing et > > al,... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > developing a urinary tract obstruction, or had blood in his urine, or > constipation or melena? Just curious. Everyone cat owner I know (and these are all indoor / outdoor cats) has a litterbox inside the house. My cat uses her litterbox every day but then again, this is England and cats aren't too bothered about venturing out in the rain and it rains *a lot* here. A litterbox is a necessity. Jeannie > > > And you can (and do) argue the merits of keeping you cat indoors with > all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > So the point therefore becomes...why does she continue to go outside? Because you don't provide enough entertainment and mental stimulation for her indoors. > > ..are caused by overfeeding - and not whether the cat is indoor/outdoor. > > I've seen plenty of fat outdoor cats, too > > True, but an outdoor cat is going to get more exercise than the indoor > variety Outdoor cats get exercise by running for their lives from other cats, dogs, predators, trying to avoid getting hit by cars, trucks, buses. Indoor cats get just as much exercise without the stress as long as the owner provides exercise for their cats and enriches the cats' environment by constantly providing new objects to explore and investigate. > so overfeeding is mitigated Nothing mitigates poor nutrition. > > > furniture damage, > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Exactly my point...it is acceptable cat behaviour but becomes unacceptable > in a human environment, hence the problems. No problem if you train the cat where to scratch. Outdoor cats are so much easier to keep, aren't they? They don't involve much time or effort on the part of the owner. > > inappropriate peeing et > > > al,... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > litterbox inside the house. My cat uses her litterbox every day but then > again, In other words, you don't actually see and know your cat's litterbox behavior. How they eliminate is just as if not more important as what they eliminate. Outdoor cats are so much easier to keep, aren't they? They don't involve much time or effort on the part of the owner. The only effort is opening the door! A cat flap even eliminates that effort! Gee, this is reminiscent of the Bob Brenchley indoor/outdoor debates in alt.cats. He's a brit too who said he'd rather see all the indoor cats dead than living indoors. > > > > And you can (and do) argue the merits of keeping you cat indoors with > > all [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Because you don't provide enough entertainment and mental stimulation for > her indoors. I do play with her when she is inside the house. She is basically not interested in me when she is outside but that's cats for you :-) > > > ..are caused by overfeeding - and not whether the cat is indoor/outdoor. > > > I've seen plenty of fat outdoor cats, too [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Outdoor cats get exercise by running for their lives from other cats, dogs, > predators, trying to avoid getting hit by cars, trucks, buses. "Running for their lives"?....very emotive Phil, but ultimately wrong. What about hunting, investigating their surroundings, playing > Indoor cats get just as much exercise without the stress as long as the > owner provides exercise for their cats and enriches the cats' environment by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Nothing mitigates poor nutrition. I don't really think that you can logically argue that an indoor cat has a lower or even the same incidence of obesity than an outdoor cat. The posts in this group alone speak to that. > > > > furniture damage, > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No problem if you train the cat where to scratch. I don't need to train her, she scratches trees not my furniture, the end > Outdoor cats are so much easier to keep, aren't they? They don't involve > much time or effort on the part of the owner. Yes they are. Why would I purposfully make my life harder when I don't need to? > > > inappropriate peeing et > > > > al,... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > litterbox inside the house. My cat uses her litterbox every day but then > > again, > In other words, you don't actually see and know your cat's litterbox > behavior. How they eliminate is just as if not more important as what they > eliminate. I know that I have to clean the litterbox every day so she can't be doing too many toilet trips outside. Anyone who actually stands there on a regular basis and watches their cats defacate ought to get out way more > Outdoor cats are so much easier to keep, aren't they? They don't involve > much time or effort on the part of the owner. The only effort is opening > the door! A cat flap even eliminates that effort! Yes by definition indoor / outdoor cats are easier to keep that indoor only cats. Does that make the relationship between cat and owner less valid? > Gee, this is reminiscent of the Bob Brenchley indoor/outdoor debates in > alt.cats. He's a brit too who said he'd rather see all the indoor cats dead > than living indoors. I don't know this "Bob" character, but I have repeatedly said that I don't advocate outdoor access for all cats. What I *have* said is that a risk assessment has to be made and the pros and cons assessed. To be honest, I don't see what is so radical and reactionary in this standpoint. I would say however, that probably the majority of cat owners in Britain, in Europe as a whole, would find your views control freaky and neurotic and would tend to agree more with this Bob character. Cultural differences certainly appear to play a large part in this debate. Jeannie > > Gee, this is reminiscent of the Bob Brenchley indoor/outdoor debates in > > alt.cats. He's a brit too who said he'd rather see all the indoor cats > dead > > than living indoors. > I would say however, that probably the majority of cat owners in Britain, in > Europe as a whole, would find your views control freaky and neurotic > and would tend to agree more with this Bob character. Wow! You find my views "control freaky and neurotic" but tend to agree with a lunatic who would rather see all the indoor cats dead than living indoors??? Okey dokey. That about sums up your mentality. I wish you would have said that earlier in the thread, I would have realized you're another lunatic and wouldn't have wasted my time. > > > Gee, this is reminiscent of the Bob Brenchley indoor/outdoor debates in > > > alt.cats. He's a brit too who said he'd rather see all the indoor cats [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would have said that earlier in the thread, I would have realized you're > another lunatic and wouldn't have wasted my time. No, No, No Phil...wrong end of the stick. My point was that your views would seem very weird to a lot of cat owners here as most cats do go outside, hence the point about culture difference. I personally know quite a few people with the same opinion as this "Bob" you spoke about, doesn't mean I agree with them (I don't agree with them...just to be clear). Maybe if you could control that knee jerk reaction long enough, you might like to re-read my original post. Jeannie >> > > Gee, this is reminiscent of the Bob Brenchley indoor/outdoor debates >in [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >if you could control that knee jerk reaction long enough, you might like to >re-read my original post. Jeannie, I understood what you were saying and you are right, on ngs like this there is a lot of arguing back and forth due to cultural differences. This is true not only of the indoor/outdoor issue but very true as well of the declawing issue. I find it sometimes a bit embarrassing that some of the American posters will insist that the U.S. viewpoint on animal care must be the most enlightened view in the world. For many years U.S. cat owners have been told by animal care authorities that they should keep their cats indoors, along with the usual propaganda about how safe and healthy indoor cats are. Little is usually said about the downsides of keeping cats exclusively indoors. It's no wonder that some U.S. cat owners do firmly believe this is a black and white issue--the grey parts are seldom publicized. > Jeannie, I understood what you were saying and you are right, on ngs like this > there is a lot of arguing back and forth due to cultural differences. This is > true not only of the indoor/outdoor issue but very true as well of the > declawing issue. I find it sometimes a bit embarrassing that some of the > American posters will insist that the U.S. viewpoint on animal care must be the > most enlightened view in the world. The thing is... Why am I (and you) allowed to be so vehementally anti-declaw, with no room for arguments (it's wrong, period, end of discussion), but when we try to be anti-outside or anti-roaming, all of a sudden we're being superior... Hrm. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace |
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