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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / September 2004favorite purebred cat
I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best > cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. I like my purebred alley cat because she goes with the curtains. :) >> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best LOL, my favorite purebreds are the neutered ones. Seriously, if I had to pick my favorite non-moggie, it would probably be the Applehead Siamese or Maine Coon. Sherry > >> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > >> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best > > LOL, my favorite purebreds are the neutered ones. No doubt. Why pay hundreds or thousands for an inbred when they are killing hybrids by the thousands? Hybrid vigor and all that... -L. > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. My favorite is the *only* truly purebred cat: http://maxshouse.com/origin_domestication+biology/outofafrica/Felis_silvestris_l ybica.jpg I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) I suggest you have echocardiograms done on both cats as soon as possible since hyperthrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) is prevalent in both breeds. http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/cardiomyopathy.html http://www.ragdoll-cats.com/Cardio.htm http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=148 http://wgnradio.com/shows/pet/cat%20disease.htm Development and progression of inherited hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in Maine Coon cats. J Vet Internal Med, Vol 10, No 3, p 165, 1996. and I think they are the best > cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. The breed with the most (18) documented genetic defects is the Siamese followed by the Persian and Burmese. Brachycephalic Airway Syndrome - Persians and Himalayans have the most worst conformation. Now that's a particularly nasty defect that didn't even exist in nature until some moron decided cats should have flat faces, round heads, and short thick necks.. Maybe he was trying to create a cat in his own image. The respiratory muscles of these cats have to generate more force to produce airflow through the narrowed air passages. This can result in barotrauma to the mucosal lining of the airways. In severe cases the respiratory muscles become fatigued which can result in ventilatory failure. Brachycephalic dogs especially the English bulldog - which usually requires surgery (Pekingese, shih tzus, Lhasa apsos, shar peis) can have the same problem. Manx and Manx mixes are prone to rectal prolapse and sacrocaudal dygenesis (malformation of the sacrocaudal vertebre) - probably as a result from tailless breeding. Now that was a stroke of pure stupidity; breeding cats without a tail... Cats use their tails for balance. The list goes on but I'm too nauseated to continue. > > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. > > My favorite is the *only* truly purebred cat: http://maxshouse.com/origin_domestication+biology/outofafrica/Felis_silvestris_l ybica.jpg > I have a male > > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > The list goes on but I'm too nauseated to continue. *and the crowd went wild* Go, Phil. >> > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > >Go, Phil. I'm part of that crowd. Still, one of my little devils is some sort of Maine Coon derivative I would guess. What a wuss. The size of a small freight train and scared of his shadow. Makes a great mop. > >> > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. > >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > Maine Coon derivative I would guess. What a wuss. The size of a small > freight train and scared of his shadow. Makes a great mop. Aww, sounds like a cutie. I love *ALL* cats. I just don't want to encourage people meddling and making more to some sort of decorative or behavioral specs when I can still see the loving and needy faces of the shelter cats every night before I go to sleep. The ones I could not take. >The list goes on but I'm too nauseated to continue. I'll help you. PKD. Hip Dysplacia (sp?) That awful condition where their knee joints lock up. Can't remember the name. Maine Coons are prone to all of these. Sherry >> The list goes on but I'm too nauseated to continue. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sherry Patellar subluxation (spelling) >> That awful condition where their knee joints lock up. Can't remember the >name. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Patellar subluxation (spelling) I've seen this condition in a couple of cats, but none of them were Maine Coons. Obviously this condition can occur in any cat, whether or not purebred. It is more commonly associated with larger, heavier cats and so one would expect to see an association with the larger breeds, but also with larger cats of mixed breed as well. At least with Maine Coons, there is a registry that screens for this condition so that breeders can try to reduce prevalence by not breeding affected cats. With a mixed breed cat you are not likely to know whether the cat has inherited a risk factor. > > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. > > My favorite is the *only* truly purebred cat: http://maxshouse.com/origin_domestication+biology/outofafrica/Felis_silvestris_l ybica.jpg What's the story on this cool cat? > > > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is. > > > > My favorite is the *only* truly purebred cat: http://maxshouse.com/origin_domestication+biology/outofafrica/Felis_silvestris_l ybica.jpg > What's the story on this cool cat? That absolute masterpiece, Felis Sylvestris Lybica (a/k/a African Wildcat) is the ancestor of the domestic cat. (...) > That absolute masterpiece, Felis Sylvestris Lybica (a/k/a African Wildcat) > is the ancestor of the domestic cat. Wonderful though it is, it's hardly a purebred cat... Steve. > (...) > > > > That absolute masterpiece, Felis Sylvestris Lybica (a/k/a African Wildcat) > > is the ancestor of the domestic cat. > > Wonderful though it is, it's hardly a purebred cat... LOL! It sure is! Pure bred by nature - not selectively bred and manipulated to suit human whims. > Steve. > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message > news:<RPednX9urOv-aKncRVn-jQ@giganews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > LOL! It sure is! Pure bred by nature - not selectively bred and manipulated > to suit human whims. Seems to me that when you get right down to it, "purebred" just means "inbred." > > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message > > news:<RPednX9urOv-aKncRVn-jQ@giganews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > "purebred" just means "inbred." That's probably why purebreds are often more susceptible to disease. Dr. Neils Pedersen, a world renowned expert on feline viral diseases said in his book on feline infectious diseases: "Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." The Bristol study confirmed that fact in which the prevalence of FIP in purebreds was nearly twice that of DSH. Prevelance was highest in the Burmese followed by the Siamese. Some people put too much value on that piece of paper. Unless you actually witness conception and birth, there's no guarantee the kitten actually came from the parents named in the registration. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the cats - I love all cats - I just have a problem with breeders in general. Phil (...) > > LOL! It sure is! Pure bred by nature - not selectively bred and > > manipulated to suit human whims. I.e., it's not a purebred cat. You can say that yellow is green, but yer lemons ain't going to taste like limes. Like it or not, basically any living thing encountered by humans is bred to suit our whims and desires. All livestock, all pets, plants, the whole deal. Even the humble moggy has to adapt to the pressures of human society - one reason why tabby cats are prevalent, indeed. As you may guess, I have no real problem with this, except when animals are bred that are fundamentally unfit for survival. For example, hairless cats are unfit in a Darwinian sense - even the most robust, the most perfect Sphynx, is not fit for purpose. It could not survive in the Great Outdoors. On the other hand, cats such as Siamese, Abys, Russian Blues, whatever, are not fundamentally flawed, although they may often be so in reality, due to poor breeding practices. > Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > "purebred" just means "inbred." It often is, although it does not have to be. In principle, a cat created via controlled breeding could well be superior to the moggy. Generally doesn't happen that way though - conformity seems to be favoured over robustness. Hence the various problems many purebreds suffer from. Steve. >(...) >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the whole deal. Even the humble moggy has to adapt to the pressures of >human society - one reason why tabby cats are prevalent, indeed. True. Whenever human beings interact with animals they influence breeding. Cats would not have become domesticated without selective breeding, because the cuter, friendlier cats were the ones most likely to get a handout from the human beings who met with them, and therefore more likely to survive and pass on their attractive, friendly genes. >As you may guess, I have no real problem with this, except when >animals are bred that are fundamentally unfit for survival. For [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >although they may often be so in reality, due to poor breeding >practices. I agree with you. Some of the historic breeds, that have been in existence for hundreds of years, are (or were until recently) hardy, healthy breeds. >> Seems to me that when you get right down to it, >> "purebred" just means "inbred." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >favoured over robustness. Hence the various problems many purebreds >suffer from. And it depends on the breed. Some breeds remain robust and have no particular genetic defects associated with them. Some are generally hardier and more long-lived than the average mixed breed cat, although that may be more due to the overall genetic background of that breed than to the knowledge of the breeder. While certainly the best breeders attempt to breed out genetic defects and strengthen a breed, I think too few breeders know what they are doing well enough to be able to do more good than harm. > (...) > > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I.e., it's not a purebred cat. You can say that yellow is green, but > yer lemons ain't going to taste like limes. Felis Sylvestris Lybica is the original - can't get any purer than that! (...) > Felis Sylvestris Lybica is the original - can't get any purer than that! Everything has a precursor. Except the primordial soup, maybe... S. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > S. The primordial soup has long since coalesced - Felis Sylvestris Lybica is still here - as it has been - *pure* - for thousands of years. All other breeds are simply mutations of the original. >Seems to me that when you get right down to it, >"purebred" just means "inbred." Inbred like the semi-owned indoor/outdoor cats in our neighborhood? They are all related to each other, either littermates or offspring, and since no body around here every bothers to neuter their pets, they all just keep mating with each other. There is plenty of inbreeding going on among mixed breed cats. > >Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > >"purebred" just means "inbred." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There is plenty of inbreeding going on among mixed breed cats. Which does not at all mean that the practical definition of "purebred" is "inbred." > > >Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > > >"purebred" just means "inbred." [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Which does not at all mean that the practical definition of > "purebred" is "inbred." lol! I meant "Which does not at all mean that the practical definition of "purebred" is NOT "inbred." > >Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > >"purebred" just means "inbred." > > Inbred like the semi-owned indoor/outdoor cats in our neighborhood? Not exactly. The gene pool in naturally bred cats is so vast that they still retain their hybrid vigor. Genetic defects are also much less common in naturally bred cats. > > >Seems to me that when you get right down to it, > > >"purebred" just means "inbred." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > still retain their hybrid vigor. Genetic defects are also much less common > in naturally bred cats. This is what anyone with a basic education in genetics would say. (...) > This is what anyone with a basic education in genetics would say. Someone with a more thorough understanding of genetics would say that breeding does not necessarily (does not have to) lead to a loss of vigour. Steve. > (...) > > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > breeding does not necessarily (does not have to) lead to a loss of > vigour. Someone who is the "Director of the Center for Veterinary Genetics, which has a rich environment for research training in genetic techniques" and is considered an expert in feline genetics *did* say: "Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils Pedersen > Steve. >"Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, >probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils >Pedersen And which strains of purebred cats are the fragile ones? > >"Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, > >probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils > >Pedersen > > And which strains of purebred cats are the fragile ones? Compared to naturally bred cats - probably *all* of them. I think Dr. Pedersen was speaking generally... >> >"Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, >> >probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I think Dr. Pedersen was speaking generally... Then I have to agree with Steve G., that if he means some breeds may have "fragile strains" that is probably true, but if he means purebred cats in general, that cannot be true. Some breeds are quite hardy, and some "strains" within various breeds are certainly hardy and long-lived. In any case the reason some cats develop FIP while most do not is not well understood. Dr. Pederson is merely offereing his own theory. > >> >"Fragile strains of purebred cats are often more susceptible to FIP, > >> >probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Then I have to agree with Steve G., That's ok, I don't mind. > In any case the reason some cats develop FIP while most do not is not well > understood. The immunologic responsiveness of the cat is one of the crucial factors. Genetic susceptibility factors might also play a large roll. The Bristol study showed a higher prevelance in purebred than natural-bred cats with the Burmese taking first place followed by the Siamese. Some lines of Persians and Birmans also have enhanced susceptibility to FIP. > Dr. Pederson is merely offereing his own theory. I'd say it a little more than just a theory... Foley JE, Pedersen NC: The inheritance of susceptibility to feline infectious peritonitis in purebred catteries. Feline Pract 24:14-22, 1996. I'd say his theories are highly credible since he's one of, if not *the* foremost FIP researchers in the world! A lot of his work in FIP involves purebred cats because of their increased susceptibility. (...) > I'd say it a little more than just a theory... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > foremost FIP researchers in the world! A lot of his work in FIP involves > purebred cats because of their increased susceptibility. However, things are not quite as you suggest... From http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/FIP.html "A genetic predisposition to the development of FIP was identified by Drs. Foley and Pedersen in 1996. They examined pedigree and health data from 10 generations of cats in several purebred catteries and found that the heritability of susceptibility to FIP could be very high (about 50%). It is likely a polygenetic trait rather than a simple dominant or recessive mode of inheritance. Inbreeding, by itself, is not a risk factor. Selecting for overall disease resistance is a helpful tool for breeders" Note - Inbreeding itself is not a risk factor. Poor breeding practices are - i.e., repeatedly breeding from lines that suffer from the genetic defect. Or, using an analogy, from time to time, bad science is carried out. However, this does not mean that all science is bad and that science should be stopped forthwith. It is also possible to breed for enhanced health. For example, IIRC, there is a lot of research into breeding chickens for improved immune systems - presumably so that they can be crammed into teeny tiny cages with less chance of succumbing to illness. Steve. >(...) >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >systems - presumably so that they can be crammed into teeny tiny cages >with less chance of succumbing to illness. Furthermore, I point out that no doubt the reason Dr. Pederson studied the heritability of susceptibility to FIP in purebred catteries is that it would be quite difficult, if not impossible, to examine pedigree and health data from 10 generations of random bred, non-pedigreed cats, wouldn't it? This is the case with many studies conducted on genetic health links; the health and lineage data exists for purebred cats so that's the group of cats that are studied. > >(...) > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> foremost FIP researchers in the world! A lot of his work in FIP involves > >> purebred cats because of their increased susceptibility. > Furthermore, I point out that no doubt the reason Dr. Pederson studied the > heritability of susceptibility to FIP in purebred catteries is that it would be > quite difficult, if not impossible, to examine pedigree and health data from 10 > generations of random bred, non-pedigreed cats, wouldn't it? No. Research colonies are often kept for generations specifically to rule out/in genetic susceptibility. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > However, things are not quite as you suggest... Things are exactly as I suggest. The Bristol study supports me. (...) > Things are exactly as I suggest. The Bristol study supports me. Available research does not support the statement that breeding of purebred cats invariably leads to an increase in genetic defects. Indeed, in the abstract from Foley & Pederson, the authors state: 'Cat breeders might achieve success in reducing FIP risk by selecting cats from less susceptible lineages for their breeding programs.' Note that they do not say 'cat breeders must stop controlled breeding in order to reduce FIP risk'. Steve. >(...) >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Steve. So apparently, as we surmised, when Pederson talks about "fragile strains" of purebred cats, he does not mean all purebred cats. > (...) > > > > Things are exactly as I suggest. The Bristol study supports me. > > Available research does not support the statement Sure, Steve whatever you say. You ought to know... LOL! > 'Cat breeders might achieve success in reducing FIP risk by selecting > cats from less susceptible lineages for their breeding programs.' > > Note that they do not say 'cat breeders must stop controlled breeding > in order to reduce FIP risk'. Yeah, I know. They said "cat breeders **might** achieve success in reducing FIP risk by selecting cats from less susceptible lineages". *Might* doesn't sound very reassuring, and "susceptible lineages" seems to mean, well, entire lineages are susceptible - ah yes, "line breeding". Imagine that - entire lineages being susceptible to FIP! Now that's a scary thought! I wonder what breeders do with those lineages... You know how terrified breeders are of being known to have FIP in their cat factories. From your Winn reference: "The likely defect in immunity to FIP is in cell-mediated immunity. Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and viral infections. " Wow! Imagine that, entire lineages have defects in CMI that makes them susceptible to all kinds of diseases! Entire lineages... You don't have much actual experience working with cats and vets, other than your own, do you? It doesn't seem like you do Almost every vet I've worked with or even knew in the last 40 years, including my vet whose a double-boarded, retired veterinary professor, were of the opinion that generally purebred cats are more susceptible to disease. These are vets who work with just about all the breeds of cats on a day to day basis for decades. My experience working with cats for >40 years on a day-to-basis tends to makes me agree with them. You can bob and weave in your philosophical debates all you want, but nothing but nothing beats real life practical field experience and empirical evidence. I really don't have the time (or desire) to engage in one of your philosophical debates (that's really all you seem to do here). Come to think of it, you never seem to actually talk about cats or offer any useful advice. Do you even have any cats? Oops, your 10 minutes are up. Time flies when you're having fun. > "Steve G" <news@stevethepsycho.co.uk> wrote in message > Come to think of it, you never seem to actually talk > about cats or offer any useful advice. Do you even > have any cats? Steve once said "You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements one way or the other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch people project ..." But I do think he mentioned having more than one cat in another thread, at least one being a breeder cat and one being a stray. I enjoy the arguments, but my gut tells me Steve is a pro-breeder guy who actually does let his cats out in a busy urban area. I would mind but I feel sure that Steve will go directly to hell upon issuing his last breath. If there is a hell. And if there isn't, as one man once said, there damned well ought to be. (...) > Steve once said "You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements > one way or the other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch > people project ..." I did. That was in the context of whether I allow my cats to go outdoors or not. > But I do think he mentioned having more than one cat in another thread, at > least one being a breeder cat and one being a stray. She rememebered! I feel all emotional. > I enjoy the arguments, but my gut tells me Steve is a pro-breeder guy who > actually does let his cats out in a busy urban area. Well, the former is (obvously) true to some extent but I'm certainly not universally pro-breeder, and there are several breeds I do not believe should exist. I also think that breeding should be much more tightly controlled than it is, and that Joe Public should not be able to set up a breeding concern basically on a whim. FWIW (piece of chewing gum and a bit o'string, probably). > I would mind but I feel > sure that Steve will go directly to hell upon issuing his last breath. I'll be sure to carry around a bag of marshmallows in my dotage, so that when the inevitable happens, I'll have something nice to toast. Anyway, thanks once again for your kind thoughts. Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Anyway, thanks once again for your kind thoughts. Well now, Steve, if you let your kitties roam in a busy urban area, you deserve these thoughts. Relax, the last I heard the verdict is still out on Heaven and Hell actually existing. (...) > Sure, Steve whatever you say. You ought to know... LOL! You know, for a while I was worried that we'd get several responses from you but no LOLs at all. All's well now. (...) > > Note that they do not say 'cat breeders must stop controlled breeding > > in order to reduce FIP risk'. > > Yeah, I know. They said "cat breeders **might** achieve success in > reducing FIP risk by selecting cats from less susceptible lineages". > *Might* doesn't sound very reassuring, Shrug. That's the way science is written - if it ain't been fully tested, then 'might' it is. > and "susceptible lineages" seems to mean, well, entire lineages > are susceptible - ah yes, "line breeding". Imagine that - entire lineages > being susceptible to FIP! Yes, that is basically what they are saying (although not for all breeds necessarily). (...) > From your Winn reference: "The likely defect in immunity to FIP is in > cell-mediated immunity. Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also > likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and > viral infections. " > Wow! Imagine that, entire lineages have defects in CMI that makes them > susceptible to all kinds of diseases! Entire lineages... The quote continues: "Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and viral infections. **This finding gives breeders the ability to achieve success in reducing the risk of FIP by using pedigree analysis to select breeding cats from family backgrounds that have strong resistance to FIP and other infectious diseases.**" Emphasis added. > Almost every vet I've worked > with or even knew in the last 40 years, including my vet whose a > double-boarded, retired veterinary professor, were of the opinion that > generally purebred cats are more susceptible to disease. I do not disagree that some lines (or even breeds) are more susceptible to disease, what I'm saying is: i) not all lines (or breeds) are susceptible, and ii) susceptibility is not an effect of breeding per se (or even inbreeding per se); it is an effect of poor breeding practices (re. the Winn URL). > These are vets who > work with just about all the breeds of cats on a day to day basis for > decades. Parenthetically, many vets own purebred cats. Make of that what you will. (...) > I really don't have the time (or desire) to engage in one of your > philosophical debates (that's really all you seem to do here). Well, no-one's coercing you, and I'm not about to wander up to your neck of the woods, stand over you and twat you upside the face with a herring until you reply. The wonders of usenet - you're free to STFU when you like, as am I. > Come to > think of it, you never seem to actually talk about cats or offer any useful > advice. Do you even have any cats? What are these 'cats' of which you speak? Is this not rec.pets.duckbilledplatypus? > Oops, your 10 minutes are up. Time flies when you're having fun. 'bye then. It's been special, like special needs education. Steve. (...) > > Someone with a more thorough understanding of genetics would say that > > breeding does not necessarily (does not have to) lead to a loss of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably because of decreased overall disease resistance." Dr. Neils > Pedersen And someone who said that is NOT disagreeing with my above statement, viz. 'breeding does not necessarily (does not have to) lead to a loss of vigor'. Poor breeding practices can (and do) lead to problems, but good breeding practices will not. Your (referenceless) cite has bugger all to say about this. Incidentally (as Yngver points out elsewhere), the statement by Pedersen is ambiguous in the above context: Does he suggest that *all* purebreds are fragile, or that breeds exist that are fragile? The latter is a reasonable statement, the former is likely not. Steve. >Not exactly. The gene pool in naturally bred cats is so vast that they >still retain their hybrid vigor. Genetic defects are also much less common >in naturally bred cats. Even when you have several generations of sibling to sibling and parent to offspring matings going on? Responsible breeders generally would not allow matings between such closely related cats, but if you say this small pool of neighborhood cats is retaining their "hybrid vigor," okay. They don't appear to be very healthy cats, but possibly that is more because they are not fed well. It's true the patriarch of the family has lasted about five years now. I don't think most of them have lasted long enough to find out what sort of genetic health problems they may have inherited. > >Not exactly. The gene pool in naturally bred cats is so vast that they > >still retain their hybrid vigor. Genetic defects are also much less common > >in naturally bred cats. > > Even when you have several generations of sibling to sibling and parent to > offspring matings going on? Yep! Its been that way for throusands of years. > Responsible breeders "Responsible breeders" is an oxymoron. A truly responsible breeder wouldn't breed until there's a shortage of cats. Is there a shortage of cats somewhere? generally would not allow > matings between such closely related cats, How do you know? Unless you witness the mating and birth, you can't know. I forgot, breeders call inbreeding "line breeding" - sounds better to them. . but if you say this small pool of > neighborhood cats I didn't say anything about your neighborhood cats. >probably as a result from >tailless breeding. Now that was a stroke of pure stupidity; breeding cats >without a tail... Cats use their tails for balance. As though breeders thought up the idea of creating the tailless Manx cat. Manx-type cats have been observed since the 1500s, and of course are named for the Isle of Man where they have been common for at least 200 years, and considered indigenous. So if you feel that the creation of the Manx was a stroke of stupidity, you must blame nature instead. > >probably as a result from > >tailless breeding. Now that was a stroke of pure stupidity; breeding cats > >without a tail... Cats use their tails for balance. > > As though breeders thought up the idea of creating the tailless Manx cat. > Manx-type cats have been observed since the 1500s, and of course are named for > the Isle of Man where they have been common for at least 200 years, and > considered indigenous. The Manx is mutation of the island's domestic cats. So if you feel that the creation of the Manx was a > stroke of stupidity, you must blame nature instead. I didn't say breeders created the Manx. I should have said its a stroke of stupidity to intentionally breed cats that are prone to painful genetic defects. Nature occasionally makes mistakes. > So if you feel that the creation of the Manx was a >> stroke of stupidity, you must blame nature instead. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Nature occasionally makes mistakes. More exactly, nature constantly makes mistakes. Many are spontaneously aborted, often before anyone even knows they are fertilized. Some mutations are not functionally significant. The vast majority are bad. A few are good. I would guess that, as organisms approach an ideal configuration for their environment, the higher the percentage of mutations that are bad. Still, it would be pretty cool to have a tail. >> So if you feel that the creation of the Manx was a >>> stroke of stupidity, you must blame nature instead. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Still, it would be pretty cool to have a tail. Yes, nature generally takes care of its mistakes by not letting them survive. If one considers the Manx cat a mistake of nature, it is one that has managed to survive and perpetuate itself for hundreds of years before breeders put a hand in it. The Manx is what I would consider a natural breed; in other words, the breed arose naturally rather than having been created by breeders attempting to create a tailless cat. Taillessness is not necessarily associated with genetic defects. The Japanese Bobtail, an even more ancient breed of cat, and another natural breed, is generally regarded as a healthy breed of cat with no specific genetic problems. > Yes, nature generally takes care of its mistakes by not letting them survive. > If one considers the Manx cat a mistake of nature, it is one that has managed > to survive and perpetuate itself for hundreds of years before breeders put a > hand in it. That's not entirely accurate. "A spontaneous mutation occurred at some point several hundred years ago, which created kittens born without the vertebrae that form the tail of normal cats. With the passage of centuries and due to the isolation of the cats from outside breeding, the taillessness eventually became a common characteristic among the Isle of Man cats" "Other breeds of cats occasionally produce a kitten with a missing tail. The Manx, however, is the only cat that is bred to be tailless." http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html#history > > So if you feel that the creation of the Manx was a > >> stroke of stupidity, you must blame nature instead. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Some mutations are not functionally significant. The vast majority are > bad. A few are good. Not true. Most mutations aren't significant. For example, each human has, on average, 7 true genetic mutations. There is a ton of DNA in each genome that isn't in frame with any coding region. And even if the mutation occurs within a coding region, most point mutations are tolerated. -L. > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best > cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. Scottish Fold > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best > cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. I have a beautiful Chartreaux. Her name is Spot (Actually it's Nous nours Bleu Rapture but, I mean really). She's a big girl, about 10 pounds, slate grey with gold eyes. Not a lap cat but likes to be near me, follows me around the house. Ever night around 11p, she comes into my bedroom, pats me on the face for treats, then curls up on her corner of the bed. Although when seriously stressed (having blood drawn) she screams, she doesn't meow. She opens her mouth and sometimes a little squeak comes out. She travels with me regularly, by car. I take her to my boyfriend's house when I go there for the weekends (180 miles). She doesn't seem to mind going to a different house. I took her with me when I drove to my parents' (1000 miles). Like her French farm cat forebearers, she's a great mouser. (We live in an old house. Mice get in. Of course, having a live mouse dropped on your back at 4am is not so much fun.) She gets along beautifully with the older DSH male who also lives in the house. > > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > nours Bleu Rapture but, I mean really). She's a big girl, about 10 > pounds, slate grey with gold eyes. Pictures! >>> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >>> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pictures! http://homepage.mac.com/megsaint/PhotoAlbum1.html > >>> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > >>> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://homepage.mac.com/megsaint/PhotoAlbum1.html OMG!! Is she as sweet as she looks? This is a truly beautiful girl. I love the rounded shape of her head and her pretty little muzzle. Now we need some stories to go with the pics! >>>> I have a beautiful Chartreaux. Her name is Spot (Actually it's Nous >>>> nours Bleu Rapture but, I mean really). She's a big girl, about 10 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the rounded shape of her head and her pretty little muzzle. Now we need some > stories to go with the pics! I hadn't realized how rare this breed of cat was until after I had gotten her. (For all of those of you out there who would prefer that people adopt cats from shelters: Around the time I got Spot, I also rescued an abandoned kitten, paid huge vet bills to have her brought back to full health, medicated her several times a day and then found a loving home for her. Her name is Mimi.) Spot has the ability to vanish into other dimensions, probably the one with the socks. When we have parties, she is shut in my bedroom as she doesn't like small children and will hide somewhere I can't find her and I get agitated. One night, I came into my room at the end of the night and... no cat. I looked under everything, in the closets, under the bed, behind the radiator. No cat. I thought perhaps an inquisitve toddler had let her out. I searched the house. No cat. I decided to calm down and wait. Ten minutes later, she was sitting next to the bed. The door to the bedroom was still shut... We have to be careful because, as she doesn't meow, she will just sit where she gets stuck until we find her. Stuck would include a door that is mostly closed but not latched. I've never before had a cat who couldn't figure out how to open a door! In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Meg St. Clair <megsaint@earthlink.net> artfully composed this message within <news:2004083118594250073%megsaint@earthlinknet> on 31 Aug 2004: > We have to be careful because, as she doesn't meow, she will > just sit where she gets stuck until we find her. Stuck would > include a door that is mostly closed but not latched. I've never > before had a cat who couldn't figure out how to open a door! Is she just really mellow that she doesn't meow? She is beautiful; I had a look at your pics.  SignatureCheryl > In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Meg St. Clair > <megsaint@earthlink.net> artfully composed this message within [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is she just really mellow that she doesn't meow? She is beautiful; I > had a look at your pics. Actually, it's a breed characteristic. Some of them chirp. She "meeps" occaisionally, never gets to the full meow, though. Mostly just opens her mouth a little as if she were meowing but no sound. The only other cat I ever had who did that was one who had been abandoned before she was weaned. She never learned to meow properly or do a lot of other normal cat things. But with Chartreaux, it's normal. In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Meg St. Clair <megsaint@earthlink.net> artfully composed this message within <news:2004083122081211272%megsaint@earthlinknet> on 31 Aug 2004: >> In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Meg St. >> Clair <megsaint@earthlink.net> artfully composed this message [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > meow properly or do a lot of other normal cat things. But with > Chartreaux, it's normal. My RB cat Shadow didn't have a meow. He had some sounds earlier on, but he had surgery that ruined any sound that he tried to make and he did what you described, didn't try to meow. He grunted, and when he was upset by one of the other cats he would try to hiss but even that never came out. All of the years he was with me, he never really vocalized. I wonder if he had some genes in him from a breed that didn't make sounds. He sure did purr, though. You could hear him from across the room. :) SignatureCheryl >>>> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >>>> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://homepage.mac.com/megsaint/PhotoAlbum1.html aawwww, she is beautiful! such a lovely color and i've never seen such gorgeous bright gold eyes! my Shaina looks like a Russian blue, except for a white patch on her tummy and a small one on her chest. she is a mix, obviously, but a very beautiful mix. i want to get a Russian Blue friend for her. -L >aawwww, she is beautiful! such a lovely color and i've never seen such >gorgeous bright gold eyes! >my Shaina looks like a Russian blue, except for a white patch on her >tummy and a small one on her chest. she is a mix, obviously, but a >very beautiful mix. i want to get a Russian Blue friend for her. I have seen Chartreux at cat shows and they have a that distinctive silver shimmer to the plush fur. These pictures do a good job of illustrating the unique qualities of the Chartreux. Sometimes they are confused with the British Shorthair (blue) but the coat quality and shape of the nose are not the same. >> aawwww, she is beautiful! such a lovely color and i've never seen such >> gorgeous bright gold eyes! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > unique qualities of the Chartreux. Sometimes they are confused with the British > Shorthair (blue) but the coat quality and shape of the nose are not the same. As I understand it, in the UK, they are considered the same brred as the British Shorthairs. But in the pictures I've seen they do seem to have a different face shape. I sent the pictures to the breeder who said she was sorry she hadn't kept her for breeding. When I got Spot's registration papers, TICA had mad a mistake and instead of it saying "Not for Breeding" under her name, it says it under mine! In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Meg St. Clair <megsaint@earthlink.net> artfully composed this message within <news:2004083119045043658%megsaint@earthlinknet> on 31 Aug 2004: > When I got Spot's registration papers, TICA had > mad a mistake and instead of it saying "Not for Breeding" under > her name, it says it under mine! LOL SignatureCheryl >As I understand it, in the UK, they are considered the same brred as >the British Shorthairs. But in the pictures I've seen they do seem to >have a different face shape. Here's what it says on the CFA site: "Chartreux and British Blues Some cat books claim that the Chartreux is the same cat as the British Blue, or that it "once was a separate breed, but has now become identical to the British Blue." This is not true. Not only do the two breeds have different physical and temperamental characteristics, but pedigree research and blood typing confirms that the breeds have distinct ancestry. These books are referring to the confusing use of the name "Chartreux" by certain European cat clubs to refer to the British Blue. In 1970, FIFe (the European federation of cat fanciers) decided to assimilate the Chartreux with the British Blue under the name "Chartreux" but with the breed standard of the British Blue. This decision came about because many of the member countries were not interested in the Chartreux as a breed, but preferred the name "Chartreux" with its long history to the less interesting name "blue British Shorthair." They sought to save the name and apply it to another breed. Chartreux breeders protested, and in 1977, FIFe overturned its earlier decision and returned to separate registries and standards for the two breeds. However, since the 1970s, a few "independent" (non-FIFe) European cat clubs have continued to use the name "Chartreux" for the blue British Shorthair, or for the blue European Shorthair, or for hybrids between these breeds and the Chartreux. This practice is more common in those countries like Germany where there are fewer genuine Chartreux available." ******* I know a British shorthair breeder and once you get to know them and the Chartreux, there are a number of distinctive differences between the two breeds. There are similarities too, but people familiar with the breeds would not mistake one for the other. Chartreux have a distinctive look in the face and nose, that's hard to explain. >I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best >cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. Bengals! :D They're awesome, wonderful, outgoing, bright cats, and seriously not for everyone. :) Of course, I'm biased. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid (...) > Bengals! :D They're awesome, wonderful, outgoing, bright > cats, and seriously not for everyone. :) > > Of course, I'm biased. I think that Bengals are perhaps my second favorite breed, my fave being Abys. On the other hand, I've seen nowt but pictures of many breeds, and I do like the appearance of Cornish Rexes, Ocicats, Savannahs and other oddities I'll never meet. On the other (moggy) hand, I like any (big) tabby (one of my cats is a big Maine coonalike) and cats with grey / blue coloration. Actively dislike any of the flat-faced abominations, also Sphynxes and the like. FWIW, Steve. >I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the >best cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. Traiditional Siamese. Alan Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------- ** Please use address alanh77[at]comccast.net to reply via e-mail. ** Posted using registered MR/2 ICE Newsreader #564 and eComStation 1.1 BBS - The Nerve Center Telnet FidoNet 261/1000 tncbbs.no-ip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >> ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the >> best cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. > > Traiditional Siamese. > Alan One of my favorites. However, I decided one extremely vocal cat (a huge male DSH) was enough for one household. >I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male >ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/04 I don't know about what breed is my favorite - I do have a maine coon and he was a great addition to our family - but I also have the 3 non pure breed cats that I rescued and I wouldn't send any of them back - they all are great and unique... Karryl http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/soft63389/index.htm I would like to hear about other purebreds. This cat was surrendered to a county shelter as a bitter after she was declawed. She didn't even have a scratching problem before she was declawed. Imagine a cat being declawed, then being surrendered because she became a biter after being declawed... How's that for a horror story? We rehomed her twice - both times she was returned because of biting, then I adopted her. It took about a year, now she's out smooches all my other cats! She still gives little love nips when she gets excited but never breaks the skin - so does my girlfriend so I'm used to it. She looks like a Turkish Angora - all white with blue eyes (no, she's not deaf) - a real knockout! http://maxshouse.com/Ours/Suggie.jpg Phil > I would like to hear about other purebreds. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Phil Awww. So pretty. And just the opposite color of MY Sugar! > > I would like to hear about other purebreds. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > Awww. So pretty. And just the opposite color of MY Sugar! I love the look on her face. What a doll. > > > I would like to hear about other purebreds. > > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I love the look on her face. What a doll. Thanks. Actually, all my ladies are knockouts! http://maxshouse.com/Ours/Phil's%20Fabulous%20Felines.JPG "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote > > > Awww. So pretty. And just the opposite color of MY Sugar! > > I love the look on her face. What a doll. > > Thanks. Actually, all my ladies are knockouts! > > http://maxshouse.com/Ours/Phil's%20Fabulous%20Felines.JPG Oh, they are! You like girlie cats too. :-) I'll post some of my girls as soon as my camera gets here. I love your tabbies, that is what my Cheeky is, but she is very light grey. > She looks like a Turkish Angora - all white with blue eyes (no, she's not > deaf) - a real knockout! > > http://maxshouse.com/Ours/Suggie.jpg > > Phil She is gorgeous! Meg > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best > cats in the world but I would like to hear about other purebreds. I love Persians. They are so laid back andloving. But, as many people have said on this newsgroup, they have been inbred and solive do not live very long lives. My latest Persian does not have the flat face and I hope that the breeders are getting away from that abomination. I also have a 21 year old "alley cat" who has a cast iron immune system. She is thriving! > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/04 Hands down, my favorite is the Silver Persian (with the Golden a very close second). The first time I saw those green eyes, it was all over. Karen > I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/04 >Hands down, my favorite is the Silver Persian (with the Golden a very close >second). The first time I saw those green eyes, it was all over. >Karen When I was a kid, the Silver Persian aka Chinchilla was my favorite breed of cat. My aunt had one. Everyone in our family thought she was the most beautiful cat we had ever laid eyes on. Back then the Silvers for some reason had doll faces, not the flatter faces that most of the other colors had. Nowadays when I see them at cat shows they seem to have the same flat faces the other Persians have, although the extreme flat faces seem to have gone out of fashion. I think cats that come from shelters are the best! All three of mine were rescues. Isis is a Bombay, Jade is a Diluted Tabby, and Icarus is a Japanese Bobtail. >I was just wondering what everybodies favorite purebred is.I have a male > ragdoll (Max) and a female maine coon (Xena) and I think they are the best [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/04 |
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