Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2004
The 'Dead' Cat
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RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 04:43 GMT For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week, here is an update and explanation for that post. Those of you who have followed my recent posts about my own animals would have a difficult time imagining me doing such harm to a creature like this. Rightfully so - I couldn't and didn't. BTW - I don't even own any handguns... :) However what I described could actually occur in this area for exactly the reasons I described - lack of rescue/shelter alternatives.
First of all, the cat described in the post, his actions and the circumstances of his visit to my home were all very real. His demise is not. He is very much alive and currently roaming the property of a friend of mine who lives in a small community directly south of me. I dropped him off with my friend on my way to work in my new job that Friday along with several pounds of Meow Mix the humane society foisted on me for the care of the last stray that they refused to accept.
A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst for my rather disturbing post. Many of those who responded have given replies to other topics from a number of other posters. Some of you have a very disturbing tendency to ignore what a person says they can or cannot do. I've noticed before that a poster will state very clearly their limited finances in dealing with a health matter. Certain respondents can be counted on to insist that veterinary intervention or medications that can only be obtained through a vet are the only solution. While this may or may not always be the case, the poster knows their financial limitations better than those who insist it shouldn't be a factor. Most veterinary visits have a price that simply doesn't exist in a family budget when unemployment, health issues, etc exist. Yet you will insist - sometimes in very condescending manner - that a way should somehow be found to do that and that the person isn't a true animal lover if they can't somehow make it happen. What absolute unmitigated arrogance......
Thus went the theme of many of your replies to me. While totally ignoring the reality of the situation - lack of shelter alternatives, lack of rescue space - many of you insisted that it would have been simple to do the following:
TNR the cat. While this is fine and well if you have the funds to pay for it and the time to transport the cat to surgery and deal with it's recuperation, it is not an alternative if the money and time don't exist. I'm just now coming off a long spell of unemployment. There is no extra money. To pay for such a procedure is not possible. Starting a new job the next day after this cat visited meant I would be gone for several days -- read that NOT AT HOME - GONE FROM THE AREA. With my wife working full time, carrying a full time college course load and caring for an 8 year old child, her time is spoken for too. Factor in the rather unpredictable nature of what could happen if this animal were agitated and it is asking too much of her.
Rehome the animal myself. Hah!!! I'm not an adoption service, mmmkay? This creature came here uninvited and posed an immediate problem. See previous remark - I would be NOT AT HOME - GONE FROM THE AREA!!!!! Yet how many of you mindlessly insisted that what should have been done was something that would have required my presence to undertake? I question a few things here - your ability to comprehend and whether your degree of compassion is really as great as you imagine it to be. Your arrogance is paramount in your replies.
None of you - NOT A SINGLE ONE - made any inquiry at all about the nature of the problems at the local humane society that greatly contribute to this situation. Since it is very relevant I'll fill you in. The shelter used to take in animals, hold them for evaluation and attempt to home them for a period of up to several weeks depending on the volume of animals coming in. Many were euthanised. It's a sad fact of life - far more animals than people willing to give them homes. Those with the best potential for being homed were kept, the rest euthanised.
The shelter managed to piss off most of the veterinary community one way or another and found themselves without medical consultants needed to properly evaluate incoming cats. They also lost key people who handled the euthanasia. As a result there was a recent scandal when it was discovered that shelter employees and volunteers were mixing intravenous euthanasia drugs with food and water and giving it to the cats. There were hideous reports of seizures, psychotic reactions to the drugs and generally negative results - kidney and liver damage to animals that had been dosed. This resulted in an immediate cessation of euthanasia.
A new director came aboard who has nearly zero experience in any sort of animal care facility. His intent is to rehome any animal that comes in. When the shelter filled up, those bringing animals in - stray or surrendered pets were placed on a waiting list that averages around 50 names. Several things began to happen almost immediately. First, the community lost a resource for locating lost pets. Those that found one took them to the shelter. Those that lost one notified the shelter in case it was turned in. Many found their way back home. That ended. Second, many of those who came across a stray were and are unable to keep the animal until they rise to the top of the waiting list. They merely turn it loose in another neighborhood. A person I know at the rescue group stays in touch with some of her former co-workers at the shelter. The shelter people have told her of several instances where the same animal has been brought in over a span of weeks by different people from different areas. The obvious occurrence here is that being confronted with the waiting list, many people are dropping the cats off in an area away from their home where it is in turn found by someone else who tries to take it to the shelter. This is also why my area is a prime dumping ground. I'm located only a few blocks off the main route back into town from the shelter. The third and most disturbing is that the animals dumped off due to the waiting list continue to suffer from being homeless. They get into fights with resident animals, are abused by less than welcoming residents, and get hit by cars. I wish all animals could find a home. I wish all shelters could be no-kill. But how is subjecting them to the continued plight of being homeless and unwanted preferable to a few weeks in a shelter before being administered a humane death? Oh dear... employees shot that humane part in the a.s didn't they? Well - now you see the dilemma of this area. The rescue group is filled up with overflow from the humane society and the animals continue to suffer. The shelter offers no alternative - just a waiting list which obviously many people are choosing to disregard.
So what did happen to the noisy, mean tempered old fart that invaded my home? Well, I closed my cats off in a bedroom on the other side of the house. Cassie cat stayed in the basement which is her refuge at times. I got a pet carrier out of the garage and a pair of gloves. I sat on the back porch with a bowl of dry cat food that had been microwaved for a few seconds to enhance its odor and began talking to and calling the old tom who was sitting in the bushes on the side of the house. After several minutes he came around the corner of the house and sat about 12 feet away in the driveway. I kept on talking to him and tossed a few pieces of cat food his way. This spooked him at first and he backed up, muttering and growling. Pretty soon he stopped with all the noises and began vocalizing responses when I spoke to him. His voice was a heavy, raspy, croaky sort of sound, part cry, part meow. I placed a small pile of food where he could see it on the step below me and off to the side. I kept tossing pieces to him in such a way that he was obligated to move closer if he wanted to get them. Pretty soon he was on the step below the food pile. He stretched his neck as far as he could and stepped lightly forward on a front paw to start eating from the pile. All this time I kept talking to him. Pretty soon he was out of food from the pile and looking to me for more. I held some between my thumb and fingers outstretched in his direction. As soon as he started to sniff at it I pulled back a little to get him to come closer. When he did I started lightly stroking along his jaw with my finger and thumb, cat food pinched in between them. He responded by nuzzling my hand, and damn - he was purring too!! Things progressed quickly then. He started tolerating more and more of my petting until I could scratch his head and stroke him all along his back. When the food was gone, he was talking to me in the most gravely whisky voice I ever heard from a cat. I went inside to get more food. As I came out the door, he came all the way up the steps and ate with the pile placed right next to me, being petted the whole time. He finished his meal and enjoyed being petted enough to lay down curled up against my hip. While I petted him and exchanged 'conversation' I noted his condition. His ears were tattered from fights, torn in places and scarred. He had many scars on his face and head where the hair was gone. His hips were protruding - bony from malnutrition. It also appeared that he had ringworm in several spots. After sitting with him for about half an hour, he only lightly resisted going in the carrier. He retreated to the rear of the carrier and didn't even try to escape when I opened it to place food and water inside. The next day he was taken to my friend's home where he has the run of the horse barn for shelter, far removed from the hassles of trying to scrape by in town. He has topical ointment for the ringworm. Beyond that there probably won't be much in the way of medial care. He didn't get a utopia but his situation was improved. It's the best I could do, tough sh.t if you don't think it was enough.
So why write what I did previously? As mentioned before, to cultivate the responses from some of you who are perpetually myopic and self centered when you reply to others, seeing their situation only from your own perspective. Read for understanding, have compassion towards those who may not have your expertise or financial resources to resolve matters with their feline loved ones. If you can't manage that, then please shut the f.ck up.
Secondly, I wanted to call attention to the situation that exists here with our local humane society. They are an independent organization getting no funding from the city or the county. They do exactly whatever the hell they want to and have no concerns at all on how it affects the health, safety, and welfare of the animals or the well being and property rights of the residents. They are accountable to nobody. I'm still waiting for a determination on whether the USDA has regulatory authority over this shelter as they do many other private shelters. While not especially fond of euthanasia, I'm even less fond of forcing people into a situation where they abandon animals in hostile, unsafe environments to continue suffering while the humane society smugly pats itself on the back for a job the feel is well done. It's not a good situation and no matter how it turns out, the result will be lacking.....
Cathy Friedmann - 29 Aug 2004 06:03 GMT > For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my > recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > pounds of Meow Mix the humane society foisted on me for the care of the last > stray that they refused to accept. <snipped>
> So why write what I did previously? IMO, strange; very strange... You riled people all up, on purpose, to sit back & watch the responses. Of course you didn't get replies re: the shelter probs; what you wrote re: shooting the tom rather overpowered the rest of what you had to say! To say the least. No *wonder* it didn't make sense.
Cathy
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 06:27 GMT > For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my > recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week, > here is an update and explanation for that post. Those of you who have > followed my recent posts about my own animals would have a difficult time > imagining me doing such harm to a creature like this. Rightfully so - I > couldn't and didn't. Heh. I've lost interest. Why not go back and stir things up at alt.flame.n*ggers? We like to talk about our cats here.
suitta - 29 Aug 2004 06:37 GMT I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your impressions of the people here. I will surely be judged for this but I do not think that euthanization is the worst option. Abandoning a homeless cat somewhere in unfamiliar territory to be eaten by coyote's or giving it up to a humane society who won't see any potential in the animal and continue it's care are unthinkable. So is euthanizing. I have a feral in my home I am caring for, but I cannot keep her. I've done my research, I know what assistance is and isn't out there and I pray everytime I look at her that when the time comes I will be able to truly save her life. None was ever more deserving.
> For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my > recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week, [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > done. It's not a good situation and no matter how it turns out, the result > will be lacking..... RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 06:55 GMT > I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your > impressions of the people here. I will surely be judged for this but I do > not think that euthanization is the worst option. Abandoning a homeless cat > somewhere in unfamiliar territory to be eaten by coyote's or giving it up to > a humane society who won't see any potential in the animal and continue it's > care are unthinkable. So is euthanizing. What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is offering absolutely no alternative when people come in with an animal. They've seemingly alienated most of the veterinary assistance they once had. The rescue group sponsored a spay day at their shelter last week - $10 for males, $20 for females. Although they stopped taking reservations the day before it took place, with the no shows they didn't even fill up to capacity on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done. They actually did 25.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 12:40 GMT >What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being >better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done. >They actually did 25. Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a cat. Good shelters don't magically appear and bad shelters don't automatically get better. Hardworking people get changes made. Yeah, busy people with full-time jobs and families even. I think you mentioned lobbying your local authorities to get changes made. What have you found out?
Sherry
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 13:50 GMT > Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a > cat. Guilt isn't even an issue here. If you hadn't worked it out yet, there is a serious gap in availability of professionally run services for animal welfare here. Screw the idea that I or anyone else is automatically obligated to provide services for any and all strays that happen to wander across my property. If you want to talk about guilt I suppose a good place to start might be the betrayal of people in this county who have supported this shelter with their donations and now find the animal welfare they believed they were supporting being ignored.
>Good shelters don't magically appear and bad shelters don't automatically > get better. This one had been very good at one point. It's a long way back to any sort of service to the animals when their veterinary services are cut off and they fail their mission to provide humane care to the animals their mission statement says they are intended to serve. They have essentially become nothing more than a pet store operating on private donations. Animals lost or abandoned in this county suffer as though no organization for their welfare exists and will continue to do so.
>I think you mentioned lobbying your local > authorities to get changes made. What have you found out? The city really has no ability to mandate anything since the shelter is located outside their boundaries. The county commisioners tell me that counties are very limited under state charter as to what sort of legislative and regulatory authority they have. In this case - basically none.This shelter has worked very hard over the past few years to terminate all contractual relationships they previously had with city or county for animal control services. The only relationship that exists now is an agreement to provide rented shelter space for the dog warden's office which is operated through the county sherriff's office.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 17:14 GMT >Guilt isn't even an issue here. If you hadn't worked it out yet, there is a >serious gap in availability of professionally run services for animal >welfare here. Screw the idea that I or anyone else is automatically >obligated to provide services for any and all strays that happen to wander >across my property. Yes, you are automatically obligated. It's called taking responsibility. It's your property. It's your problem. Unless this shelter is a muncipal facility, run on your tax dollars, they have no obligation to you whatsoever. Especially if your dollars and volunteer hours don't support the place. The shelter sounds like a privately owned entity. They have the choice to set whatever policies they choose, as long as it does not involve neglect or abuse of animals. If they either choose to inconvenience you by adopting a policy not to accept any incomings, you can gripe about it on usenet all day long. But that's about all you can do.
>If you want to talk about guilt I suppose a good place to start might be the >betrayal of people in this county who have supported this shelter with their >donations and now find the animal welfare they believed they were supporting >being ignored. There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about the orally-administered euthanasia drug, the media has likely spread the news. Because, frankly, knowing what I do about the federal controls and access restrictions placed on those drugs, that *alone* would be big news and I'm surprised the place isn't shut down and drug-mishandling *and* animal abuse charges filed in your county court. Why hasn't there been? Is it possibly a rumor?
Sherry
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 17:20 GMT > There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out > which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > charges filed in your county court. Why hasn't there been? Is it possibly a > rumor? Not a rumor. It was brought to light by an employee at the shelter who was subsequently fired. The drugs were apparently stock items owned by the shelter. The local media did do a very disturbing piece on the situation but it was well after the fact. The only change that came from it was a cessation of euthanasia at the shelter - no criminal charges for anyone involved.
The board of the shelter contains some rather prominent local business people who have done a fairly effective job of damage control. They made the whole matter blow over pretty quickly.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:26 GMT > > There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out > > which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Not a rumor. It was brought to light by an employee at the shelter who was > subsequently fired. [snip blah blah blah] If you really want anyone to believe your horseshit, give us a state and a county and we will do our own research.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:26 GMT >> There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out >> which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > people who have done a fairly effective job of damage control. They made the > whole matter blow over pretty quickly. Well, then, if any of this story is true (and you will forgive me for my doubt, considering all your posts here) there is your course of action. Boycott the businesses of the people on the board for a start. Publish their names and cite the incidents in editorials. Hell, contact PETA. An extremist group like that would jump at this or at least give you guidance in how to proceed. Extremists DO have their uses. Make it work for you.
mlbriggs - 30 Aug 2004 01:17 GMT >>> There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out >>> which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > extremist group like that would jump at this or at least give you guidance > in how to proceed. Extremists DO have their uses. Make it work for you. Or get involved in politics and run for Mayor. If you by some chance were elected, maybe you could help to improve the situation. Oh, yes -- don't be so rude and crude!MLB
Trish - 30 Aug 2004 02:25 GMT It could just be that the shelter got tired of his "I am great" crusade he's on and locked the doors to him. What's most interesting is that he still refuses to post details of the shelter, such as the location.
As for his fabricating shooting the cat, I don't believe it. I believe he killed the cat and is looking to worm his way out of it by attempting, very lamely, to point fingers and accuse us of not being humane enough to focus on the shelter and its problems (which exists in the middle of somewhere, zipcode unknown).
Seriously Rob, a few years of shock therapy may help you get both sides of your brain together again and actually functional. You're a twit.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:08 GMT > >What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being > >better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a cat.
Good point.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 18:12 GMT > Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a > cat. There you go - focusing this on the human end of the equation and totally ignoring the animals. How convenient that must be for you. How many animals do you reckon are out there wandering around homeless whose best interest will be served by the first human they make contact with? That's why such places as shelters and humane societies exist - to provide safe, humane alternatives to death by starvation, disease, and injury. Perhaps your role as the omnipotent judge of all that is best and who is worthy has obscured that point.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:28 GMT >> Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off > a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > as the omnipotent judge of all that is best and who is worthy has obscured > that point. Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances she has given to both shelters AND dumpees that regularly show up at her place. Believe me, Sherry puts her time AND money where her mouth is when it comes to homeless animals.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 19:37 GMT > Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of > animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances she > has given to both shelters AND dumpees that regularly show up at her place. > Believe me, Sherry puts her time AND money where her mouth is when it comes > to homeless animals. If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals. She *should* realize that stating it becomes the responsibility of a homeowner to become personally and financially responsible for any and all stray animals that come onto the property is absoulute nonsense. If she chooses to hold herself out as that sort of doormat, it's no wonder she has 'dumpees' regularly showing up at her place. Anyone is free to involve themselves to whatever degree they choose for the welfare of animals. That also includes my right to restrict my willingness to take responsibility for only what creatures I choose to bring into my home. Strays, dumpees, and assorted interlopers will be given whatever kindness I can show them but I abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a stray cat becomes job one.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 20:00 GMT > > Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of > > animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a > stray cat becomes job one. What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of. Sad, sad, sad. Sadder still, it just isn't going to happen.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 20:03 GMT > What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of. What a vain lame piece of work you are.... It should be clear by now that approval from anyone - especially the likes of you is the least of my concerns.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 20:11 GMT > > What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of. > > What a vain lame piece of work you are.... It should be clear by now that > approval from anyone - especially the likes of you is the least of my > concerns. If only saying so could MAKE it so. You are so transparent, and such an idiot. Thanks for giving me my first good laugh of the week.
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 20:27 GMT << If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals. >>
I'm sure she does but what is it you expect her to do about your local situation?!? It's a big world with a lot of localities. She works in hers; she has no time/money/desire/obligation to work in yours. What do you want anyway? Do you seriously expect everyone on this ng to rally around you and come out to wherever it is you live and kick bureaucratic a.s? Dream on, we have our own lives.
Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail)
See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace
"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
Sherry - 30 Aug 2004 04:17 GMT >What do you want >anyway? Do you seriously expect everyone on this ng to rally around you and >come out to wherever it is you live and kick bureaucratic a.s? Dream on, we >have our own lives. > >Candace Those are very good questions, and ones that he seems to be ignoring.
Sherry
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 21:34 GMT >If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize >that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals. >She *should* realize that stating it becomes the responsibility of a >homeowner to become personally and financially responsible for any and all >stray animals that come onto the property is absoulute nonsense. Using the voice reserved only for the very young, very slow, or very stupid. 1. Everybody doesn't have a "shelter", big boy. The US is full of rural areas with no animal control at all. It's not your God-given right to have an organization available for your convenience. It really boils down to something very simple. If you're a decent, humane person, you manage to find a solution. You keep the cat. Re-home the cat. Whatever. It's not that hard, and not a major undertaking. Life doesn't stand still. If you think it is, you must be some kind of wuss. If you're an a.shole, you shoot the cat. If you're an a.shole with entitlement issues, you cry-baby on usenet about how some private organization won't take the problem off your hands for you.
Sherry
If she
>chooses to hold herself out as that sort of doormat, it's no wonder she has >'dumpees' regularly showing up at her place. Anyone is free to involve [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a >stray cat becomes job one. RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 23:47 GMT And you my dear are a narcissistic simple minded c.nt. I really don't care what others have in their part of the country or don't have. What we have here is a shelter that my donations and support of various fundraisers have helped support over the years. The many programs they had in the past are now virtually all at a standstill while the shelter itself has become nothing more than a glorified pet store. As you and your ilk have already demonstrated, you're probably too dense to understand that. There used to be hope for homeless animals here. There used to be resources. There used to be 2 TNR groups partly funded by the shelter that no longer operate because of changes in shelter policy.
Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what anyone ought to do with a stray on me? I take care of my family, my home and my animals. Being a citizen of this city who owns a pet does not obligate me to do anything at my own expense for stray cats. I'm full up and not interested. I'm gone on the job 4 1/2 days a week and simply am not interested in missionary work during the little time I have at home with my family. So plain and simple - your version of what ought to be doesn't apply. The shelter that many of us around here supported through all of their growth isn't functional anymore. The options for animals in this county become fewer and more dismal every day and there is no end to it. I have yet to see one response where anyone stepped forward with ANY information on what was done to help correct problems at any shelters ythey may have had experience with. Just because someone dumps an animal does not automatically make it mine. I've done my share and probably will comtinue to do so, but it sure is hard to take seeing a shelter already in place that could be a fabulous resource functioning as nothing more than a pet store.
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 00:06 GMT > And you my dear are a narcissistic simple minded c.nt. Quite the gentleman, aren't you?
> I really don't care > what others have in their part of the country or don't have. Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is in your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung - to care & do something about it?! A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre?
Cathy
RobZip - 30 Aug 2004 00:54 GMT > Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is in > your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung - > to care & do something about it?! A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre? A perfect example of the myopia afflicting this group.
From the post you responded to : ". I have yet to see one response where anyone stepped forward with ANYinformation on what was done to help correct problems at any shelters they may have had experience with."
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 01:19 GMT > > Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is > in > > your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung - > > to care & do something about it?! A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre? > > A perfect example of the myopia afflicting this group. Are we all myopic, yet you have 20/20 vision?
> From the post you responded to : ". I have yet to see one response where > anyone > stepped forward with ANYinformation on what was done to help correct > problems > at any shelters they may have had experience with." Yet you edited _out_ the portion of your post I *was* responding to: "I really don't care what others have in their part of the country or don't have."
Cathy
Mary - 30 Aug 2004 01:28 GMT > > > Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is > > in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Cathy Well, please! THAT doesn't matter. Here is what Robbie wants: He is right and we are wrong and wasn't he smart to use the dead cat story to illustrate that. Only because we weren't all just wowed by his manly "taking things into his own hands" by killing the tom. I think he did kill the cat, by the way. And, of course there have been lengthy threads regarding shelters. Now then, until he hears what a clever and great guy he is, little Rob is apt to keep stamping his feet and calling everyone C**NTs and if you keep confusing him with the facts he'll probably YELL, too. I find it amusing. :)
Karen Chuplis - 30 Aug 2004 02:57 GMT > Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what > anyone ought to do with a stray on me? Ahem. Pot. Kettle. Black.
RobZip - 30 Aug 2004 04:06 GMT > > Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what > > anyone ought to do with a stray on me? > > Ahem. Pot. Kettle. Black. Not at all. I'm stating how far I'm willing to go, to what degree I can assist a stray. If there are those among you who can make a full time endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and am told that I should despite being unable to do more.
Sherry - 30 Aug 2004 04:20 GMT >Not at all. I'm stating how far I'm willing to go, to what degree I can >assist a stray. If there are those among you who can make a full time >endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and >am told that I should despite being unable to do more. No. You are being told that, if no other avenue is available to you, you can take the matter into your own hands in a humane fashion. You act like you want a wonderfully-run shelter to materialize before your eyes or something, or for Bad Shelter to magically become Good Shelter sheerly by the force of will of the people here? What??
Sherry
Mary - 30 Aug 2004 06:03 GMT > > > Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what > > > anyone ought to do with a stray on me? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and > am told that I should despite being unable to do more. That's not what anyone here has said.
-L. : - 30 Aug 2004 07:28 GMT > >If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize > >that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Coming late to this, but AMEN, Sistah!
That 'bout sums it up.
-L.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 21:22 GMT >There you go - focusing this on the human end of the equation and totally >ignoring the animals. No, you seem to be focusing on "Me, me, me. What can the shelter do for me" I am assuming you aren't handicapped, or too stupid to perform the same service to that cat the shelter would--neuter it, feed it, and find it a home. You've already said neutering is available for ten dollars there, and you were lying about the cat needing to be trapped--it's tame enough to catch. I'm also assuming your wife isn't too stupid to drive it for those services--don't start the "busy" shit--we can all find time for the things we *want* to find time for. It doesn't occur to you to take responsibility yourself. You'd rather whine on a newsgroup and make excuses why organizations should exist solely to keep Rob from dirtying his hands and spending a little cash & time. It's easier to sluff it off on someone else, isn't it?
Sherry How many animals
>do you reckon are out there wandering around homeless whose best interest >will be served by the first human they make contact with? That's why such >places as shelters and humane societies exist - to provide safe, humane >alternatives to death by starvation, disease, and injury. I've seen your type. You're all about having the shelter system ready & waiting for YOU, when YOU need it. I seriously doubt you've ever turned a hand to volunteer or donated money, but you want them ready & willing to do your dirty work for you. I'm guessing the shelter is either full, or refused to come out and trap the cat for you, if the truth was known. Now you're angry, and convoluting stories and spreading rumors to
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:21 GMT >> I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your >> impressions of the people here. I will surely be judged for this but I do [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done. > They actually did 25. I guess I have to wonder how you think your orignal posts HERE are going to help your shelter situation THERE. Perhaps you should be writing the local papers and politicians instead. Although, with as bizarre as your reasoning has been and the inability to distinguish the truth from you, I don't know that that will help you out with the local shelter problems.
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 20:22 GMT << Although, with as bizarre as your reasoning has been and the inability to distinguish the truth from you, I don't know that that will help you out with the local shelter problems. >>
I mean, really! His shelter problems are not our shelter problems so what the f!ck are we supposed to do about it? I don't know where he lives but I know it's not by me so why do I, or anyone else, really need to know all these details. Suffice to say, it's not a good situation but I don't quite know what he wants from us when relating all this info. I know I'm not going to do anything about it. If I had resources, I would be helping the situation in my area, not his. That's life in the big city. Blow it out your a.s, Rob.
Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail)
See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace
"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 08:02 GMT > I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your impressions of the people here.
You're a fool. Rob is a lying SOB.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 08:12 GMT "RobZip" <RobZip@takethisout.eudora.com> wrote> So what did happen to the noisy, mean tempered old fart that invaded my home? Well, I closed my cats off in a bedroom on the other side of the house. Cassie cat stayed in the basement which is her refuge at times. I got a pet carrier out of the garage and a pair of gloves. I sat on the back porch with a bowl of dry cat food that had been microwaved for a few secondsto enhance its odor and began talking to and calling the old tom who was sitting in the bushes on the side of the house. After several minutes he came around the corner of the house and sat about 12 feet away in the driveway. I kept on talking to him and tossed a few pieces of cat food his
> way. This spooked him at first and he backed up, muttering and growling. > Pretty soon he stopped with all the noises and began vocalizing responses when I spoke to him.
This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated? You are so full of sh.t. It really matters not whether you are lying now or whether you lied about killing the cat. You're a pathetic loser, so ineffectual in your own world that you have to create these asinine deceptions. I just don't have it in me to care about you. There are really worthy creatures to care about. Nice verbal skills, though. Not at all uncommon in sociopaths. But back to the fiction you're created in order to get attention:
>His voice was a heavy, raspy, croaky sort of sound, > part cry, part meow. I placed a small pile of food where he could see it on the step below me and off to the side. I kept tossing pieces to him in such a way that he was obligated to move closer if he wanted to get them. Pretty soon he was on the step below the food pile. He stretched his neck as far as he could and stepped lightly forward on a front paw to start eating from the pile. All this time I kept talking to him. Pretty soon he was out of food from the pile and looking to me for more. I held some between my thumb and fingers outstretched in his direction. As soon as he started to sniff at it I pulled back a little to get him to come closer. When he did I started
> lightly stroking along his jaw with my finger and thumb, cat food pinched in between them. He responded by nuzzling my hand, and damn - he was purring
> too!! Things progressed quickly then. He started tolerating more and more of my petting until I could scratch his head and stroke him all along his back.
> When the food was gone, he was talking to me in the most gravely whisky voice I ever heard from a cat. I went inside to get more food. [snip flagrant horseshit]
LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will not.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 14:05 GMT > LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are > people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will not. Your hostility and petty aggressions here are truly shining examples of the bravery of being out of range so well displayed by mouthy cowards like yourself on Usenet. Thoughts you wouldn't dare give voice to if I were seated at the next table in a public establishment with a longneck Bud in my hand may flow freely here. Enjoy typing whatever you wish here - it's the only freedom that petty white trash redneck cowards like yourself have for their rantings. You really aren't all that you envision yourself to be. You are common white trailer trash.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:21 GMT > > LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are > > people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yourself on Usenet. Thoughts you wouldn't dare give voice to if I were > seated at the next table in a public establishment with a longneck lol
You assume too much, asswipe. This IS the way I am with SCUMBAGS like you in real life. I've gotten popped a few times, too, but that's what assault charges are for. I'm living proof that punishment will not change behavior. What you describe is what you see when you look in the mirror.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 14:32 GMT > This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated? As stated from the outset - semi-feral. One could expect quite different behavior from him towards a litter of kittens than what he would display towards a possible food source.
BTW- don't a couple of your field bucks need servicing? You better get their randiness handled before they get loosed on the women folk in town.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:22 GMT > > This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated? > > As stated from the outset - semi-feral. Or, you're a liar. Twolling for attention. Bet there's no wife or kid either. lol
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 08:40 GMT << A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst for my rather disturbing post. >>
Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite. Of course, you could be toying with us now and fabricating the living cat. Actually, I believe you that the cat is alive because I wasn't even sure from the original post whether you meant you killed the cat or dumped the cat. Obviously, the latter. But I don't know, here you had been a nice guy, telling us cute, sensitive stories about Sammy, Cassie, and the babies that I, for one, looked forward to, and then you decide to set up a little sting operation or whatever it was so that you could then criticize us for not reacting to in the manner you deem appropriate (bad sentence structure).
Well, that's too bad about the shelter situation in your area but Cathy is right that the supposed murder of the tom (who apparently is not even semi-feral by your description) far overshadowed what you were writing about the shelters. Of course, we are going to react to the murdered cat over that. And...we all have different shelter/humane society/rescue situations in our own areas that are probably not ideal for the most part. Really, what were we expected to do about the situation in your area? I don't even know where your area is specifically but I don't imagine there's a whole lot I could do about it. We all pretty much have to "think global, act local."
I'm glad the cat's not dead and I do suppose you have improved his life somewhat but I just find it troubling/annoying/even almost "betraying" that you made the whole bogus thing up. Hey, maybe since the cat is no longer in your "area," that the guy you gave him to could TNR him, huh? What are the resources in his area?
<< Your arrogance is paramount in your replies. >>
And your arrogance is paramount in your little mindgame.
Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail)
See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace
"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 13:57 GMT > << A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst > for my rather disturbing post. >> > > Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to > toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite. I'm glad it did incite. You see, we thought we had a pretty good shelter operation here. Turns out we don't. What we have now is a surprisingly bad example of what happens when a group of people ( their board and director) stray from the mission and are accountable to nobody. The animals that require services do without.
The scenario regarding the old tom will probably play out many times over in this area for quite some time to come. State and local laws give cats the same status as a wild animal, meaning the the protections required for a domestic pet, shelter, food, etc don't apply. They also can be killed off the same as common vermin by property owners. The only applicable laws covering that would be very loosely applied cruelty laws. Consider how difficult it would be to prosecute someone for killing a rat on their property. A cat would get the same consideration legally. Without shelter services for these cats, the instances of cruelty are certain to increase.
Wendy - 29 Aug 2004 14:41 GMT > > << A few observations about your various responses since that was the > catalyst [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > property. A cat would get the same consideration legally. Without shelter > services for these cats, the instances of cruelty are certain to increase. Granted everyone doesn't have the resources to pay to get every stray that wanders on to their property spayed and to care for them afterwards. However you have shown the ability to string a few sentences together coherently and apparently have the time to do so. Instead of complaining about your local shelter here why don't you start writing to your state, county and local authorities. Write letters to the editor. Offer to write letters for the rescue group soliciting donations so they are better able to fill in the gap left by the shelter. Perhaps you can get someone mobilized who can do something to actually change the situation in your area. It's more productive than baiting people in a NG.
W
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 17:09 GMT > Granted everyone doesn't have the resources to pay to get every stray that > wanders on to their property spayed and to care for them afterwards I certainly don't.
.> However you have shown the ability to string a few sentences together coherently and
> apparently have the time to do so. Instead of complaining about your local > shelter here As good a place as any wouldn't you say? People in this group can certainly understand the issues and the ramifications for the local animal population. It may also serve as a heads up for things to watch out for in your own communities. The local shelter was a stable operation for a long time. In the span of 2 years things have gone to hell in a bad way.
>why don't you start writing to your state, county and local > authorities. Write letters to the editor. Offer to write letters for the > rescue group soliciting donations so they are better able to fill in the gap > left by the shelter. I would presume from your comments that you have not read all of the replies to my original post on this subject. At that time I had already been in contact with the USDA, local county commissioners, a local TV station that has done stories on this shelter before, and sought out many opinions and information from the past director of the shelter, her former second in command, and the rescue group currently in operation. Since then I've also completed the required legwork to be accepted as a guest editorial writer on this subject for our local newspaper. The TV station may do a story on it. The reporter I spoke with has a good background on the subject and is as displeased as I am.
I've also talked with local state representatives of both political parties on the subject of legislation to introduce a pet food assessment similar to what North Carolina is currently considering. They've given me a laundry list of research on the matter they would like to have before it could be adopted as a legislative proposal. They are seemingly in favor of such a measure but aren't about to devote staff and resources just to get the prelimanary background info and historical data.
> Perhaps you can get someone mobilized who can do > something to actually change the situation in your area. It's more > productive than baiting people in a NG. See above comments.
Cheryl - 29 Aug 2004 17:27 GMT In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", 2004:
> And your arrogance is paramount in your little mindgame. You said it Candace. What an a.shole he is.
 Signature Cheryl
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:14 GMT > << A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst > for my rather disturbing post. >> > > Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to > toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite. This is called trolling. This is actually what trolling really is. Posting just to elicit reactions. So Robby here, while a deplorable a.shole who probably really did kill that cat, is a damned good troll.
You will recall (or Google may help) that his first post her was to post emails of people he did not like so that the spambots would pick them up. Then somehow he got interested in this group, but in the end he went back to what he was doing in the first place. Very simple.
Of course, you could
> be toying with us now and fabricating the living cat. Actually, I believe you > that the cat is alive because I wasn't even sure from the original post whether [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you could then criticize us for not reacting to in the manner you deem > appropriate (bad sentence structure). The object is attention. If he didn't get enough by being cutesy wutesy, he had to go with the "I shot a cat" tactic. I know you have known people like this before. So insecure that if they don't hear their own voice for too long they have to find someone to yell at. Or lie to. Pathetic. And, unfortunately, too common.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 18:20 GMT <snip of hot air release>
What Mary thinks she knows would fill the Library of Congress. What she actually knows could be written on a 3x5 card with a dull Sharpie. How many times do you observe Mary flying of the mouth at a poster in this group, venomous and hateful just to accomplish what? To bring attention to herself.... I can see how easy it is for you to attempt applying a concept you understand well to others.
Feed your slaves... There's laws concerning dependent neglect ya know, even if you do consider them livestock.
hpickering@austin.rr.com - 29 Aug 2004 19:01 GMT ><snip of hot air release> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Feed your slaves... There's laws concerning dependent neglect ya know, even >if you do consider them livestock. Is this another flame war starting up? Time to hit the ignore tread menu item.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:18 GMT I think you are a little bit strange.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 19:40 GMT > I think you are a little bit strange. lol!! Karen you just kill me!
I think you have mastered the fine art of understatement!
zuzu22@webtv.net - 29 Aug 2004 20:36 GMT Rob wrote:<snip overly long work of fiction>
I don't believe you. Not now, nor in the future.
Megan
 Signature
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com
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"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
-L. : - 30 Aug 2004 07:34 GMT <snip BS>
You're a compulsive liar, have delusions of grandeur and suffer narcissism. Now fuckoff, troll.
-L.
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