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The 'Dead' Cat

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RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 04:43 GMT
For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my
recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week,
here is an update and explanation for that post. Those of you who have
followed my recent posts about my own animals would have a difficult time
imagining me doing such harm to a creature like this. Rightfully so - I
couldn't and didn't. BTW - I don't even own any handguns... :) However what
I described could actually occur in this area for exactly the reasons I
described - lack of rescue/shelter alternatives.

First of all, the cat described in the post, his actions and the
circumstances of his visit to my home were all very real. His demise is not.
He is very much alive and currently roaming the property of a friend of mine
who lives in a small community directly south of me. I dropped him off with
my friend on my way to work in my new job that Friday along with several
pounds of Meow Mix the humane society foisted on me for the care of the last
stray that they refused to accept.

A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst
for my rather disturbing post. Many of those who responded have given
replies to other topics from a number of other posters. Some of you have a
very disturbing tendency to ignore what a person says they can or cannot do.
I've noticed before that a poster will state very clearly their limited
finances in dealing with a health matter. Certain respondents can be counted
on to insist that veterinary intervention or medications that can only be
obtained through a vet are the only solution. While this may or may not
always be the case, the poster knows their financial limitations better than
those who insist it shouldn't be a factor. Most veterinary visits have a
price that simply doesn't exist in a family budget when unemployment, health
issues, etc exist. Yet you will insist - sometimes in very condescending
manner - that a way should somehow be found to do that and that the person
isn't a true animal lover if they can't somehow make it happen. What
absolute unmitigated arrogance......

Thus went the theme of many of your replies to me. While totally ignoring
the reality of the situation - lack of shelter alternatives, lack of rescue
space - many of you insisted that it would have been simple to do the
following:

TNR the cat. While this is fine and well if you have the funds to pay for it
and the time to transport the cat to surgery and deal with it's
recuperation, it is not an alternative if the money and time don't exist.
I'm just now coming off a long spell of unemployment. There is no extra
money. To pay for such a procedure is not possible. Starting a new job the
next day after this cat visited meant I would be gone for several days --
read that NOT AT HOME - GONE FROM THE AREA. With my wife working full time,
carrying a full time college course load and caring for an 8 year old child,
her time is spoken for too. Factor in the rather unpredictable nature of
what could happen if this animal were agitated and it is asking too much of
her.

Rehome the animal myself. Hah!!! I'm not an adoption service, mmmkay? This
creature came here uninvited and posed an immediate problem. See previous
remark - I would be NOT AT HOME - GONE FROM THE AREA!!!!!  Yet how many of
you mindlessly insisted that what should have been done was something that
would have required my presence to undertake? I question a few things here -
your ability to comprehend and whether your degree of compassion is really
as great as you imagine it to be. Your arrogance is paramount in your
replies.

None of you - NOT A SINGLE ONE - made any inquiry at all about the nature of
the problems at the local humane society that greatly contribute to this
situation. Since it is very relevant I'll fill you in. The shelter used to
take in animals, hold them for evaluation and attempt to home them for a
period of up to several weeks depending on the volume of animals coming in.
Many were euthanised. It's a sad fact of life - far more animals than people
willing to give them homes. Those with the best potential for being homed
were kept, the rest euthanised.

The shelter managed to piss off most of the veterinary community one way or
another and found themselves without medical consultants needed to properly
evaluate incoming cats. They also lost key people who handled the
euthanasia. As a result there was a recent scandal when it  was discovered
that shelter employees and volunteers were mixing intravenous euthanasia
drugs with food and water and giving it to the cats. There were hideous
reports of seizures, psychotic reactions to the drugs and generally negative
results - kidney and liver damage to animals that had been dosed. This
resulted in an immediate cessation of euthanasia.

A new director came aboard who has nearly zero experience in any sort of
animal care facility. His intent is to rehome any animal that comes in. When
the shelter filled up, those bringing animals in - stray or surrendered pets
were placed on a waiting list that averages around 50 names. Several things
began to happen almost immediately.
First, the community lost a resource for locating lost pets. Those that
found one took them to the shelter. Those that lost one notified the shelter
in case it was turned in. Many found their way back home. That ended.
Second, many of those who came across a stray were and are unable to keep
the animal until they rise to the top of the waiting list. They merely turn
it loose in another neighborhood. A person I know at the rescue group stays
in touch with some of her former co-workers at the shelter. The shelter
people have told her of several instances where the same animal has been
brought in over a span of weeks by different people from different areas.
The obvious occurrence here is that being confronted with the waiting list,
many people are dropping the cats off in an area away from their home where
it is in turn found by someone else who tries to take it to the shelter.
This is also why my area is a prime dumping ground. I'm located only a few
blocks off the main route back into town from the shelter.
The third and most disturbing is that the animals dumped off due to the
waiting list continue to suffer from being homeless. They get into fights
with resident animals, are abused by less than welcoming residents, and get
hit by cars. I wish all animals could find a home. I wish all shelters could
be no-kill. But how is subjecting them to the continued plight of being
homeless and unwanted preferable to a few weeks in a shelter before being
administered a humane death? Oh dear... employees shot that humane part in
the a.s didn't they? Well - now you see the dilemma of this area. The rescue
group is filled up with overflow from the humane society and the animals
continue to suffer. The shelter offers no alternative - just a waiting list
which obviously many people are choosing to disregard.

So what did happen to the noisy, mean tempered old fart that invaded my
home? Well, I closed my cats off in a bedroom on the other side of the
house. Cassie cat stayed in the basement which is her refuge at times. I got
a pet carrier out of the garage and a pair of gloves. I sat on the back
porch with a bowl of dry cat food that had been microwaved for a few seconds
to enhance its odor and began talking to and calling the old tom who was
sitting in the bushes on the side of the house. After several minutes he
came around the corner of the house and sat about 12 feet away in the
driveway. I kept on talking to him and tossed a few pieces of cat food his
way. This spooked him at first and he backed up, muttering and growling.
Pretty soon he stopped with all the noises and began vocalizing responses
when I spoke to him. His voice was a heavy, raspy, croaky sort of sound,
part cry, part meow. I placed a small pile of food where he could see it on
the step below me and off to the side. I kept tossing pieces to him in such
a way that he was obligated to move closer if he wanted to get them. Pretty
soon he was on the step below the food pile. He stretched his neck as far as
he could and stepped lightly forward on a front paw to start eating from the
pile. All this time I kept talking to him. Pretty soon he was out of food
from the pile and looking to me for more. I held some between my thumb and
fingers outstretched in his direction. As soon as he started to sniff at it
I pulled back a little to get him to come closer. When he did I started
lightly stroking along his jaw with my finger and thumb, cat food pinched in
between them. He responded by nuzzling my hand, and damn - he was purring
too!! Things progressed quickly then. He started tolerating more and more of
my petting until I could scratch his head and stroke him all along his back.
When the food was gone, he was talking to me in the most gravely whisky
voice I ever heard from a cat. I went inside to get more food. As I came out
the door, he came all the way up the steps and ate with the pile placed
right next to me, being petted the whole time. He finished his meal and
enjoyed being petted enough to lay down curled up against my hip. While I
petted him and exchanged 'conversation' I noted his condition. His ears were
tattered from fights, torn in places and scarred. He had many scars on his
face and head where the hair was gone. His hips were protruding - bony from
malnutrition. It also appeared that he had ringworm in several spots. After
sitting with him for about half an hour, he only lightly resisted going in
the carrier. He retreated to the rear of the carrier and didn't even try to
escape when I opened it to place food and water inside. The next day he was
taken to my friend's home where he has the run of the horse barn for
shelter, far removed from the hassles of trying to scrape by in town. He has
topical ointment for the ringworm. Beyond that there probably won't be much
in the way of medial care. He didn't get a utopia but his situation was
improved. It's the best I could do, tough sh.t if you don't think it was
enough.

So why write what I did previously? As mentioned before, to cultivate the
responses from some of you who are perpetually myopic and self centered when
you reply to others, seeing their situation only from your own perspective.
Read for understanding, have compassion towards those who may not have your
expertise or financial resources to resolve matters with their feline loved
ones. If you can't manage that, then please shut the f.ck up.

Secondly, I wanted to call attention to the situation that exists here with
our local humane society. They are an independent organization getting no
funding from the city or the county. They do exactly whatever the hell they
want to and have no concerns at all on how it affects the health, safety,
and welfare of the animals or the well being and property rights of the
residents. They are accountable to nobody. I'm still waiting for a
determination on whether the USDA has regulatory authority over this shelter
as they do many other private shelters. While not especially fond of
euthanasia, I'm even less fond of forcing people into a situation where they
abandon animals in hostile, unsafe environments to continue suffering while
the humane society smugly pats itself on the back for a job the feel is well
done. It's not a good situation and no matter how it turns out, the result
will be lacking.....
Cathy Friedmann - 29 Aug 2004 06:03 GMT
> For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my
> recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> pounds of Meow Mix the humane society foisted on me for the care of the last
> stray that they refused to accept.

<snipped>

> So why write what I did previously?

IMO, strange; very strange... You riled people all up, on purpose, to sit
back & watch the responses.  Of course you didn't get replies re: the
shelter probs; what you wrote re: shooting the tom rather overpowered the
rest of what you had to say!  To say the least.  No *wonder* it didn't make
sense.

Cathy
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 06:27 GMT
> For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my
> recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week,
> here is an update and explanation for that post. Those of you who have
> followed my recent posts about my own animals would have a difficult time
> imagining me doing such harm to a creature like this. Rightfully so - I
> couldn't and didn't.

Heh. I've lost interest. Why not go back and stir things up at
alt.flame.n*ggers?
We like to talk about our cats here.
suitta - 29 Aug 2004 06:37 GMT
I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your
impressions of the people here.  I will surely be judged for this but I do
not think that euthanization is the worst option.  Abandoning a homeless cat
somewhere in unfamiliar territory to be eaten by coyote's or giving it up to
a humane society who won't see any potential in the animal and continue it's
care are unthinkable.  So is euthanizing.  I have a feral in my home I am
caring for, but I cannot keep her.  I've done my research, I know what
assistance is and isn't out there and I pray everytime I look at her that
when the time comes I will be able to truly save her life.  None was ever
more deserving.

> For those of you who made such an emotional investment in replying to my
> recent post regarding the semi - feral tom that visited my home last week,
[quoted text clipped - 169 lines]
> done. It's not a good situation and no matter how it turns out, the result
> will be lacking.....
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 06:55 GMT
> I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your
> impressions of the people here.  I will surely be judged for this but I do
> not think that euthanization is the worst option.  Abandoning a homeless cat
> somewhere in unfamiliar territory to be eaten by coyote's or giving it up to
> a humane society who won't see any potential in the animal and continue it's
> care are unthinkable.  So is euthanizing.

What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being
better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is
offering absolutely no alternative when people come in with an animal.
They've seemingly alienated most of the veterinary assistance they once had.
The rescue group sponsored a spay day at their shelter last week - $10 for
males, $20 for females. Although they stopped taking reservations the day
before it took place, with the no shows they didn't even fill up to capacity
on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done.
They actually did 25.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 12:40 GMT
>What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being
>better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done.
>They actually did 25.

Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a
cat. Good shelters don't magically appear and bad shelters don't automatically
get better.  Hardworking people get changes made. Yeah, busy people with
full-time jobs and families even. I think you mentioned lobbying your local
authorities to get changes made. What have you found out?

Sherry
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 13:50 GMT
> Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a
> cat.

Guilt isn't even an issue here. If you hadn't worked it out yet, there is a
serious gap in availability of professionally run services for animal
welfare here. Screw the idea that I or anyone else is automatically
obligated to provide services for any and all strays that happen to wander
across my property.
If you want to talk about guilt I suppose a good place to start might be the
betrayal of people in this county who have supported this shelter with their
donations and now find the animal welfare they believed they were supporting
being ignored.

>Good shelters don't magically appear and bad shelters don't automatically
> get better.

This one had been very good at one point. It's a long way back to any sort
of service to the animals when their veterinary services are cut off and
they fail their mission to provide humane care to the animals their mission
statement says they are intended to serve. They have essentially become
nothing more than a pet store operating on private donations. Animals lost
or abandoned in this county suffer as though no organization for their
welfare exists and will continue to do so.

>I think you mentioned lobbying your local
> authorities to get changes made. What have you found out?

The city really has no ability to mandate anything since the shelter is
located outside their boundaries. The county commisioners tell me that
counties are very limited under state charter as to what sort of legislative
and regulatory authority they have. In this case - basically none.This
shelter has worked very hard over the past few years to terminate all
contractual relationships they previously had with city or county for animal
control services. The only relationship that exists now is an agreement to
provide rented shelter space for the dog warden's office which is operated
through the county sherriff's office.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 17:14 GMT
>Guilt isn't even an issue here. If you hadn't worked it out yet, there is a
>serious gap in availability of professionally run services for animal
>welfare here. Screw the idea that I or anyone else is automatically
>obligated to provide services for any and all strays that happen to wander
>across my property.

Yes, you are automatically obligated. It's called taking responsibility. It's
your property. It's your problem. Unless this shelter is a muncipal facility,
run on your tax dollars, they have no obligation to you whatsoever. Especially
if your dollars and volunteer hours don't support the place. The shelter sounds
like a privately owned entity. They have the choice to set whatever policies
they choose, as long as it does not involve neglect or abuse of animals. If
they either choose to inconvenience you by adopting a policy not to accept any
incomings, you can gripe about it on usenet all day long. But that's about all
you can do.

>If you want to talk about guilt I suppose a good place to start might be the
>betrayal of people in this county who have supported this shelter with their
>donations and now find the animal welfare they believed they were supporting
>being ignored.

There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out
which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about the
orally-administered euthanasia drug, the media has likely spread the news.
Because, frankly, knowing what I do about the federal controls and access
restrictions placed on those drugs, that *alone* would be big news and I'm
surprised the place isn't shut down and drug-mishandling *and* animal abuse
charges filed in your county court. Why hasn't there been? Is it possibly a
rumor?

Sherry
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 17:20 GMT
> There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out
> which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> charges filed in your county court. Why hasn't there been? Is it possibly a
> rumor?

Not a rumor. It was brought to light by an employee at the shelter who was
subsequently fired. The drugs were apparently stock items owned by the
shelter. The local media did do a very disturbing piece on the situation but
it was well after the fact. The only change that came from it was a
cessation of euthanasia at the shelter - no criminal charges for anyone
involved.

The board of the shelter contains some rather prominent local business
people who have done a fairly effective job of damage control. They made the
whole matter blow over pretty quickly.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:26 GMT
> > There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out
> > which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Not a rumor. It was brought to light by an employee at the shelter who was
> subsequently fired. [snip blah blah blah]

If you really want anyone to believe your horseshit, give us a state and a
county
and we will do our own research.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:26 GMT
>> There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out
>> which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> people who have done a fairly effective job of damage control. They made the
> whole matter blow over pretty quickly.

Well, then, if any of this story is true (and you will forgive me for my
doubt, considering all your posts here) there is your course of action.
Boycott the businesses of the people on the board for a start. Publish their
names and cite the incidents in editorials. Hell, contact PETA.  An
extremist group like that would jump at this or at least give you guidance
in how to proceed. Extremists DO have their uses. Make it work for you.
mlbriggs - 30 Aug 2004 01:17 GMT
>>> There are bad shelters everywhere. It's up to the individual to figure out
>>> which ones are worthy of their donations. If what you say is true about
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> extremist group like that would jump at this or at least give you guidance
> in how to proceed. Extremists DO have their uses. Make it work for you.

Or get involved in politics and run for Mayor.  If you by some chance were
elected, maybe you could help to improve the situation.  Oh, yes -- don't
be so rude and crude!MLB
Trish - 30 Aug 2004 02:25 GMT
It could just be that the shelter got tired of his "I am great" crusade he's
on and locked the doors to him.  What's most interesting is that he still
refuses to post details of the shelter, such as the location.

As for his fabricating shooting the cat, I don't believe it.  I believe he
killed the cat and is looking to worm his way out of it by attempting, very
lamely, to point fingers and accuse us of not being humane enough to focus
on the shelter and its problems (which exists in the middle of somewhere,
zipcode unknown).

Seriously Rob, a few years of shock therapy may help you get both sides of
your brain together again and actually functional.  You're a twit.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:08 GMT
> >What I find most frustrating about it it is the humane society despite being
> >better known and having more resources for low cost neutering programs is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off
a cat.

Good point.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 18:12 GMT
> Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off a
> cat.

There you go - focusing this on the human end of the equation and totally
ignoring the animals. How convenient that must be for you. How many animals
do you reckon are out there wandering around homeless whose best interest
will be served by the first human they make contact with? That's why such
places as shelters and humane societies exist - to provide safe, humane
alternatives to death by starvation, disease, and injury. Perhaps your role
as the omnipotent judge of all that is best and who is worthy has obscured
that point.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:28 GMT
>> Hey, the world doesn't owe you a convenient, guilt-free place to dump off
> a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> as the omnipotent judge of all that is best and who is worthy has obscured
> that point.

Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of
animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances she
has given to both shelters AND dumpees that regularly show up at her place.
Believe me, Sherry puts her time AND money where her mouth is when it comes
to homeless animals.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 19:37 GMT
> Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of
> animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances she
> has given to both shelters AND dumpees that regularly show up at her place.
> Believe me, Sherry puts her time AND money where her mouth is when it comes
> to homeless animals.

If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize
that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals.
She *should* realize that stating it becomes the responsibility of a
homeowner to become personally and financially responsible for any and all
stray animals that come onto the property is absoulute nonsense. If she
chooses to hold herself out as that sort of doormat, it's no wonder she has
'dumpees' regularly showing up at her place. Anyone is free to involve
themselves to whatever degree they choose for the welfare of animals. That
also includes my right to restrict my willingness to take responsibility for
only what creatures I choose to bring into my home. Strays, dumpees, and
assorted interlopers will be given whatever kindness I can show them but I
abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a
stray cat becomes job one.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 20:00 GMT
> > Man, you have absolutely NO idea of Sherry's efforts on the behalf of
> > animals over the years and the great deal of personal time AND finances
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a
> stray cat becomes job one.

What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of.
Sad, sad, sad. Sadder still, it just isn't going to happen.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 20:03 GMT
> What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of.

What a vain lame piece of work you are.... It should be clear by now that
approval from anyone - especially the likes of you is the least of my
concerns.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 20:11 GMT
> > What really stikes me is how much Rob NEEEEEDS to be approved of.
>
> What a vain lame piece of work you are.... It should be clear by now that
> approval from anyone - especially the likes of you is the least of my
> concerns.

If only saying so could MAKE it so. You are so transparent, and such an
idiot. Thanks for giving me my first good laugh of the week.
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 20:27 GMT
<< If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize
that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals. >>

I'm sure she does but what is it you expect her to do about your local
situation?!?  It's a big world with a lot of localities.  She works in hers;
she has no time/money/desire/obligation to work in yours.  What do you want
anyway?  Do you seriously expect everyone on this ng to rally around you and
come out to wherever it is you live and kick bureaucratic a.s?  Dream on, we
have our own lives.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Sherry - 30 Aug 2004 04:17 GMT
>What do you want
>anyway?  Do you seriously expect everyone on this ng to rally around you and
>come out to wherever it is you live and kick bureaucratic a.s?  Dream on, we
>have our own lives.
>
>Candace

Those are very good questions, and ones that he seems to be ignoring.

Sherry
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 21:34 GMT
>If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize
>that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals.
>She *should* realize that stating it becomes the responsibility of a
>homeowner to become personally and financially responsible for any and all
>stray animals that come onto the property is absoulute nonsense.

Using the voice reserved only for the very young, very slow, or very stupid.
1. Everybody doesn't have a "shelter", big boy. The US is full of rural areas
with no animal control at all. It's not your God-given right to have an
organization available for your convenience. It really boils down to something
very simple.
If you're a decent, humane person, you manage to find a solution. You keep the
cat. Re-home the cat. Whatever. It's not that hard, and not a major
undertaking. Life doesn't stand still. If you think it is, you must be some
kind of wuss.
If you're an a.shole, you shoot the cat. If you're an a.shole with entitlement
issues, you cry-baby on usenet about how some private organization won't take
the problem off your hands for you.

Sherry

If she
>chooses to hold herself out as that sort of doormat, it's no wonder she has
>'dumpees' regularly showing up at her place. Anyone is free to involve
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>abo-f.cking-lutely guarantee you life will not come to a standstill while a
>stray cat becomes job one.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 23:47 GMT
And you my dear are a narcissistic simple minded c.nt. I really don't care
what others have in their part of the country or don't have. What we have
here is a shelter that my donations and support of various fundraisers have
helped support over the years. The many programs they had in the past are
now virtually all at a standstill while the shelter itself has become
nothing more than a glorified pet store. As you and your ilk have already
demonstrated, you're probably too dense to understand that. There used to be
hope for homeless animals here. There used to be resources. There used to be
2 TNR groups partly funded by the shelter that no longer operate because of
changes in shelter policy.

Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what
anyone ought to do with a stray on me? I take care of my family, my home and
my animals. Being a citizen of this city who owns a pet does not obligate me
to do anything at my own expense for stray cats. I'm full up and not
interested. I'm gone on the job 4 1/2 days a week and simply am not
interested in missionary work during the little time I have at home with my
family. So plain and simple - your version of what ought to be doesn't
apply. The shelter that many of us around here supported through all of
their growth isn't functional anymore. The options for animals in this
county become fewer and more dismal every day and there is no end to it. I
have yet to see one response where anyone stepped forward with ANY
information on what was done to help correct problems at any shelters ythey
may have had experience with. Just because someone dumps an animal does not
automatically make it mine. I've done my share and probably will comtinue to
do so, but it sure is hard to take seeing a shelter already in place that
could be a fabulous resource functioning as nothing more than a pet store.
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 00:06 GMT
> And you my dear are a narcissistic simple minded c.nt.

Quite the gentleman, aren't you?

> I really don't care
> what others have in their part of the country or don't have.

Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is in
your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung -
to care & do something about it?!  A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre?

Cathy
RobZip - 30 Aug 2004 00:54 GMT
> Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is in
> your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung -
> to care & do something about it?!  A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre?

A perfect example of the myopia afflicting this group.

From the post you responded to : ". I have yet to see one response where
anyone
stepped forward with ANYinformation on what was done to help correct
problems
at any shelters they may have had experience with."
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 01:19 GMT
> > Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is
> in
> > your part of the country, expecting others on the ng - who are far-flung -
> > to care & do something about it?!  A bit of a double standard, peut-?tre?
>
> A perfect example of the myopia afflicting this group.

Are we all myopic, yet you have 20/20 vision?

> From the post you responded to : ". I have yet to see one response where
> anyone
> stepped forward with ANYinformation on what was done to help correct
> problems
> at any shelters they may have had experience with."

Yet you edited _out_ the portion of your post I *was* responding to: "I
really don't care
what others have in their part of the country or don't have."

Cathy
Mary - 30 Aug 2004 01:28 GMT
> > > Then why on earth are you posting in a crusade sort of way about what is
> > in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Cathy

Well, please! THAT doesn't matter. Here is what Robbie wants:
He is right and we are wrong and wasn't he smart to use the
dead cat story to illustrate that. Only because we weren't all just
wowed by his manly "taking things into his own hands" by killing the
tom. I think he did kill the cat, by the way. And, of course there
have been lengthy threads regarding shelters. Now then, until
he hears what a clever and great guy he is, little Rob is apt to
keep stamping his feet and calling everyone C**NTs and if
you keep confusing him with the facts he'll probably YELL,
too. I find it amusing. :)
Karen Chuplis - 30 Aug 2004 02:57 GMT
> Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what
> anyone ought to do with a stray on me?

Ahem. Pot. Kettle. Black.
RobZip - 30 Aug 2004 04:06 GMT
> > Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what
> > anyone ought to do with a stray on me?
>
> Ahem. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Not at all. I'm stating how far I'm willing to go, to what degree I can
assist a stray. If there are those among you who can make a full time
endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and
am told that I should despite being unable to do more.
Sherry - 30 Aug 2004 04:20 GMT
>Not at all. I'm stating how far I'm willing to go, to what degree I can
>assist a stray. If there are those among you who can make a full time
>endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and
>am told that I should despite being unable to do more.

No. You are being told that, if no other avenue is available to you, you can
take the matter into your own hands in a humane fashion.  You act like you want
a wonderfully-run shelter to materialize before your eyes or something, or for
Bad Shelter to magically become Good Shelter sheerly by the force of will of
the people here? What??

Sherry
Mary - 30 Aug 2004 06:03 GMT
> > > Who the f.ck do you think you are to impose your interpretation of what
> > > anyone ought to do with a stray on me?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> endeavor of animal rescue, then by all means go for it. I simply cannot and
> am told that I should despite being unable to do more.

That's not what anyone here has said.
-L. : - 30 Aug 2004 07:28 GMT
> >If that is the case then certainly she, better than most, should realize
> >that good shelter support is vital in any community where there are animals.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Sherry

Coming late to this, but AMEN, Sistah!

That 'bout sums it up.

-L.
Sherry - 29 Aug 2004 21:22 GMT
>There you go - focusing this on the human end of the equation and totally
>ignoring the animals.

No, you seem to be focusing on "Me, me, me. What can the shelter do for me" I
am assuming you aren't handicapped, or too stupid to perform the same service
to that cat the shelter would--neuter it, feed it, and find it a home.  You've
already said neutering is available for ten dollars there, and you were lying
about the cat needing to be trapped--it's tame enough to catch. I'm also
assuming your wife isn't too stupid to drive it for those services--don't start
the "busy" shit--we can all find time for the things we *want* to find time
for.  It doesn't occur to you to take responsibility yourself. You'd rather
whine on a newsgroup and make excuses why organizations should exist solely to
keep Rob from dirtying his hands and spending a little cash & time. It's easier
to sluff it off on someone else, isn't it?

Sherry
How many animals
>do you reckon are out there wandering around homeless whose best interest
>will be served by the first human they make contact with? That's why such
>places as shelters and humane societies exist - to provide safe, humane
>alternatives to death by starvation, disease, and injury.

I've seen your type. You're all about having the shelter system ready & waiting
for YOU, when YOU need it. I seriously doubt you've ever turned a hand to
volunteer or donated money, but you want them ready & willing to do your dirty
work for you. I'm guessing the shelter is either full, or refused to come out
and trap the cat for you, if the truth was known. Now you're angry, and
convoluting stories and spreading rumors to
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:21 GMT
>> I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your
>> impressions of the people here.  I will surely be judged for this but I do
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> on surgery day. We're talking about 30 animals that could have been done.
> They actually did 25.

I guess I have to wonder how you think your orignal posts HERE are going to
help your shelter situation THERE. Perhaps you should be writing the local
papers and politicians instead. Although, with as bizarre as your reasoning
has been and the inability to distinguish the truth from you, I don't know
that that will help you out with the local shelter problems.
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 20:22 GMT
<<  Although, with as bizarre as your reasoning
has been and the inability to distinguish the truth from you, I don't know
that that will help you out with the local shelter problems. >>

I mean, really!  His shelter problems are not our shelter problems so what the
f!ck are we supposed to do about it?  I don't know where he lives but I know
it's not by me so why do I, or anyone else, really need to know all these
details.  Suffice to say, it's not a good situation but I don't quite know what
he wants from us when relating all this info.  I know I'm not going to do
anything about it.  If I had resources, I would be helping the situation in my
area, not his.  That's life in the big city.  Blow it out your a.s, Rob.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 08:02 GMT
> I've read your entire post and was moved by your plight and by your
impressions of the people here.

You're a fool. Rob is a lying SOB.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 08:12 GMT
"RobZip" <RobZip@takethisout.eudora.com> wrote> So what did happen to the
noisy, mean tempered old fart that invaded my  home? Well, I closed my cats
off in a bedroom on the other side of the house. Cassie cat stayed in the
basement which is her refuge at times. I got a pet carrier out of the garage
and a pair of gloves. I sat on the back porch with a bowl of dry cat food
that had been microwaved for a few secondsto enhance its odor and began
talking to and calling the old tom who was sitting in the bushes on the side
of the house. After several minutes he came around the corner of the house
and sat about 12 feet away in the driveway. I kept on talking to him and
tossed a few pieces of cat food his
> way. This spooked him at first and he backed up, muttering and growling.
> Pretty soon he stopped with all the noises and began vocalizing responses
when I spoke to him.

This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated? You are so full of
sh.t. It really matters not whether you are lying now or whether you lied
about killing the cat.
You're a pathetic loser, so ineffectual in your own world that you have to
create these asinine deceptions. I just don't have it in me to care about
you. There are really worthy creatures to care about. Nice verbal skills,
though. Not at all uncommon in sociopaths. But back to the fiction you're
created in order to get attention:

>His voice was a heavy, raspy, croaky sort of sound,
> part cry, part meow. I placed a small pile of food where he could see it
on  the step below me and off to the side. I kept tossing pieces to him in
such  a way that he was obligated to move closer if he wanted to get them.
Pretty soon he was on the step below the food pile. He stretched his neck as
far as he could and stepped lightly forward on a front paw to start eating
from the pile. All this time I kept talking to him. Pretty soon he was out
of food from the pile and looking to me for more. I held some between my
thumb and fingers outstretched in his direction. As soon as he started to
sniff at it I pulled back a little to get him to come closer. When he did I
started
> lightly stroking along his jaw with my finger and thumb, cat food pinched
in  between them. He responded by nuzzling my hand, and damn - he was
purring
> too!! Things progressed quickly then. He started tolerating more and more
of my petting until I could scratch his head and stroke him all along his
back.
> When the food was gone, he was talking to me in the most gravely whisky
voice I ever heard from a cat. I went inside to get more food. [snip
flagrant horseshit]

LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are
people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will not.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 14:05 GMT
> LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are
> people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will not.

Your hostility and petty aggressions here are truly shining examples of the
bravery of being out of range so well displayed by mouthy cowards like
yourself on Usenet. Thoughts you wouldn't dare give voice to if I were
seated at the next table in a public establishment with a longneck Bud in my
hand may flow freely here. Enjoy typing whatever you wish here - it's the
only freedom that petty white trash redneck cowards like yourself have for
their rantings. You really aren't all that you envision yourself to be. You
are common white trailer trash.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:21 GMT
> > LOL! You lying sack of sh.t. Even still, I feel certain that there are
> > people here who will get sucked in by this bullshit. And many who will
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> yourself on Usenet. Thoughts you wouldn't dare give voice to if I were
> seated at the next table in a public establishment with a longneck

lol

You assume too much, asswipe. This IS the way I am with SCUMBAGS
like you in real life. I've gotten popped a few times, too, but that's
what assault charges are for. I'm living proof that punishment will
not change behavior. What you describe is what you see when you
look in the mirror.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 14:32 GMT
> This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated?

As stated from the outset - semi-feral. One could expect quite different
behavior from him towards a litter of kittens than what he would display
towards a possible food source.

BTW- don't a couple of your field bucks need servicing? You better get their
randiness handled before they get loosed on the women folk in town.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:22 GMT
> > This is the cat you insisted was not at all domesticated?
>
> As stated from the outset - semi-feral.

Or, you're a liar. Twolling for attention. Bet there's
no wife or kid either. lol
MacCandace - 29 Aug 2004 08:40 GMT
<< A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst
for my rather disturbing post. >>

Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to
toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite.  Of course, you could
be toying with us now and fabricating the living cat.  Actually, I believe you
that the cat is alive because I wasn't even sure from the original post whether
you meant you killed the cat or dumped the cat.  Obviously, the latter.  But I
don't know, here you had been a nice guy, telling us cute, sensitive stories
about Sammy, Cassie, and the babies that I, for one, looked forward to, and
then you decide to set up a little sting operation or whatever it was so that
you could then criticize us for not reacting to in the manner you deem
appropriate (bad sentence structure).

Well, that's too bad about the shelter situation in your area but Cathy is
right that the supposed murder of the tom (who apparently is not even
semi-feral by your description) far overshadowed what you were writing about
the shelters.  Of course, we are going to react to the murdered cat over that.
And...we all have different shelter/humane society/rescue situations in our own
areas that are probably not ideal for the most part.  Really, what were we
expected to do about the situation in your area?  I don't even know where your
area is specifically but I don't imagine there's a whole lot I could do about
it.  We all pretty much have to "think global, act local."

I'm glad the cat's not dead and I do suppose you have improved his life
somewhat but I just find it troubling/annoying/even almost "betraying" that you
made the whole bogus thing up.  Hey, maybe since the cat is no longer in your
"area," that the guy you gave him to could TNR him, huh?  What are the
resources in his area?

<< Your arrogance is paramount in your replies. >>

And your arrogance is paramount in your little mindgame.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 13:57 GMT
> << A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst
> for my rather disturbing post. >>
>
> Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to
> toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite.

I'm glad it did incite. You see, we thought we had a pretty good shelter
operation here. Turns out we don't. What we have now is a surprisingly bad
example of what happens when a group of people ( their board and director)
stray from the mission and are accountable to nobody. The animals that
require services do without.

The scenario regarding the old tom will probably play out many times over in
this area for quite some time to come. State and local laws give cats the
same status as a wild animal, meaning the the protections required for a
domestic pet, shelter, food, etc don't apply. They also can be killed off
the same as common vermin by property owners. The only applicable laws
covering that would be very loosely applied cruelty laws. Consider how
difficult it would be to prosecute someone for killing a rat on their
property. A cat would get the same consideration legally. Without shelter
services for these cats, the instances of cruelty are certain to increase.
Wendy - 29 Aug 2004 14:41 GMT
> > << A few observations about your various responses since that was the
> catalyst
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> property. A cat would get the same consideration legally. Without shelter
> services for these cats, the instances of cruelty are certain to increase.

Granted everyone doesn't have the resources to pay to get every stray that
wanders on to their property spayed and to care for them afterwards. However
you have shown the ability to string a few sentences together coherently and
apparently have the time to do so. Instead of complaining about your local
shelter here why don't you start writing to your state, county and local
authorities. Write letters to the editor. Offer to write letters for the
rescue group soliciting donations so they are better able to fill in the gap
left by the shelter. Perhaps you can get someone mobilized who can do
something to actually change the situation in your area. It's more
productive than baiting people in a NG.

W
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 17:09 GMT
> Granted everyone doesn't have the resources to pay to get every stray that
> wanders on to their property spayed and to care for them afterwards

I certainly don't.

.> However you have shown the ability to string a few sentences together
coherently and
> apparently have the time to do so. Instead of complaining about your local
> shelter here

As good a place as any wouldn't you say? People in this group can certainly
understand the issues and the ramifications for the local animal population.
It may also serve as a heads up for things to watch out for in your own
communities. The local shelter was a stable operation for a long time. In
the span of 2 years things have gone to hell in a bad way.

>why don't you start writing to your state, county and local
> authorities. Write letters to the editor. Offer to write letters for the
> rescue group soliciting donations so they are better able to fill in the gap
> left by the shelter.

I would presume from your comments that you have not read all of the replies
to my original post on this subject. At that time I had already been in
contact with the USDA, local county commissioners, a local TV station that
has done stories on this shelter before, and sought out many opinions and
information from the past director of the shelter, her former second in
command, and the rescue group currently in operation. Since then I've also
completed the required legwork to be accepted as a guest editorial writer on
this subject for our local newspaper. The TV station may do a story on it.
The reporter I spoke with has a good background on the subject and is as
displeased as I am.

I've also talked with local state representatives of both political parties
on the subject of legislation to introduce a pet food assessment similar to
what North Carolina is currently considering. They've given me a laundry
list of research on the matter they would like to have before it could be
adopted as a legislative proposal. They are seemingly in favor of such a
measure but aren't about to devote staff and resources just to get the
prelimanary background info and historical data.

> Perhaps you can get someone mobilized who can do
> something to actually change the situation in your area. It's more
> productive than baiting people in a NG.

See above comments.
Cheryl - 29 Aug 2004 17:27 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav",
2004:

> And your arrogance is paramount in your little mindgame.

You said it Candace. What an a.shole he is.

Signature

Cheryl

Mary - 29 Aug 2004 18:14 GMT
> << A few observations about your various responses since that was the catalyst
> for my rather disturbing post. >>
>
> Hmmm, I find it more than a little condescending/insulting that you decided to
> toy with us and fabricate a scenario intended to incite.

This is called trolling. This is actually what trolling really is. Posting
just
to elicit reactions. So Robby here, while a deplorable a.shole who
probably really did kill that cat, is a damned good troll.

You will recall (or Google may help) that his first post her was to
post emails of people he did not like so that the spambots would pick
them up. Then somehow he got interested in this group, but in the end
he went back to what he was doing in the first place. Very simple.

Of course, you could
> be toying with us now and fabricating the living cat.  Actually, I believe you
> that the cat is alive because I wasn't even sure from the original post whether
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you could then criticize us for not reacting to in the manner you deem
> appropriate (bad sentence structure).

The object is attention. If he didn't get enough by being cutesy wutesy,
he had to go with the "I shot a cat" tactic. I know you have known
people like this before. So insecure that if they don't hear their
own voice for too long they have to find someone to yell at. Or
lie to. Pathetic. And, unfortunately, too common.
RobZip - 29 Aug 2004 18:20 GMT
<snip of hot air release>

What Mary thinks she knows would fill the Library of Congress. What she
actually knows could be written on a 3x5 card with a dull Sharpie. How many
times do you observe Mary flying of the mouth at a poster in this group,
venomous and hateful just to accomplish what? To bring attention to
herself.... I can see how easy it is for you to attempt applying a concept
you understand well to others.

Feed your slaves... There's laws concerning dependent neglect ya know, even
if you do consider them livestock.
hpickering@austin.rr.com - 29 Aug 2004 19:01 GMT
><snip of hot air release>
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Feed your slaves... There's laws concerning dependent neglect ya know, even
>if you do consider them livestock.

Is this another flame war starting up?
Time to hit the ignore tread menu item.
Karen Chuplis - 29 Aug 2004 19:18 GMT
I think you are a little bit strange.
Mary - 29 Aug 2004 19:40 GMT
> I think you are a little bit strange.

lol!! Karen you just kill me!

I think you have mastered the fine art
of understatement!
zuzu22@webtv.net - 29 Aug 2004 20:36 GMT
Rob wrote:<snip overly long work of fiction>

I don't believe you. Not now, nor in the future.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

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"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

-L. : - 30 Aug 2004 07:34 GMT
<snip BS>

You're a compulsive liar, have delusions of grandeur and suffer
narcissism.  Now fuckoff, troll.

-L.
 
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