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Feral kitten and litter box

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Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 19:54 GMT
Folks,

I am crossposting this to health+behavior and rescue.  I posted an
introduction about the feral kitten I'm suddenly responsible for on the
rescue group, but I now have a specific question that I would welcome
help with from either group.  I will repost the introductory post at the
end.

My current issue is that the kitten feral, probably about 6 weeks old,
doesn't know what a litter box is for.  I've put him down in it after
meals, but he doesn't do anything.  Over night he left poop in one
corner of his cage and pee in another.  Neither was in the litter box.

Is he not old enough to have good enough control yet to use the box?  Or
what?

We're guessing he's six weeks old from a telephone conversation with a
vet.  We're taking him in for a checkup and parasite treatment in a day
or three, depending on when there's an appointment available.  His eyes
are open (and a beautiful deep blue), he's teething (and one can feel
the beginnings of his teeth when he closes his mouth on a finger or the
like -- like the end of my nose, heh heh), and he chomps down on canned
kitten food and sardines with vim and vigour when you put him next to
the plate, but he loses interest when the plate's just on the floor of
his cage with him.  He's extremely friendly and seems almost desperate
for holding and attention.  He purrs and cries, but does not suckle
inapropriately (i.e. I think he's fully weaned) and only occasionally
kneads.  He can be held in one hand, but overflows the palm a bit.  He's
still wobbly on his feet, and his head seems too big for his neck, but
he's very interested in exploring his surroundings and likes to play
with the edge of my nightgown or the sheet or my hands (I know -- I have
to train him out of that) or with actual soft toys.  He's got a round
belly but is pretty boney otherwise.  I think vet attention to parasites
will improve that.

He's a darling little guy, but I want to be able to leave for a
conference at the end of the week.  My mother is coming down to sit my
older cats, and I've told her about the surprise kitten in the
guestroom, but I don't know about leaving if the kitten isn't using its
box.  There's only so much one can/should ask from one's 80 year old
mother!  ;-)  (She is a cat person, though.)

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Priscilla

Here's the original post:

This afternoon my stupid neighbors caught a feral kitten whose mother
would probably have come back and gotten it if they'd left it alone.  
After it was caught, who knows if she would?  And then they didn't want
the kitten!  One family said "no" to their daughter who wanted it for a
pet and the other has a daughter who's allergic, so guess who's taking
care of the kitten?

On the upside, this is the most friendly feral kitten imaginable, and,
yes, we're sure he's feral.  It's a small street, and no-one has a cat
with kittens.  We're estimating its age at about 6 weeks.  Its eyes are
open and deep blue, it's got teeth barely coming in, and it laps up wet
food now that it knows it's food.  I had to put some on my finger and
then smush it on his face before he got it and waded into the dish (yes,
two forepaws firmly in the goop) and slurped some up.  He loves to be
held and petted, so all those instructions in how to socialize a feral
can be tossed right out the window.

The first chance my friend Melissa and I will have to get him to a vet
for a check-up -- and probably worming and anti-flea treatment -- is
Wednesday evening.  For the time being he's in the big cat cage in my
guest room with a towel-lined box, a pillow-case covered hot water
bottle, a dish of food and one of water, a kitten-sized litter pan, and
a stuffed animal (fox).  I'll sleep in there with him to keep him
company -- in the room, not in the cage!  There are limits to my
suckerdom.  ;-)  I'm keeping my three cats out of the room.

He's black and white, more a leotard than a tuxedo, as I described him
to someone this afternoon.  White paws, splotches on chest & tummy, and
one funny mark on his mouth.  In the sun you can see the tiger markings
under the black.  Too cute for words.  He fits into one hand and has
tiny claws like needles.  He very occasionally hisses but frequently
cries if he's not getting petted or otherwise having attention paid to
him.  Melissa was petting him and found his "sweet spot" under his left
ear.  She had him totally blissed out.  Wierdest feral I've met, but
then he's very young.

He seems quite healthy -- not emaciated, nice round tummy even before
discovering wet kitty food -- curious, interested, playful.  One eye is
watering just a little bit, and I want to keep an eye on that, but aside
from fleas he seems in very good shape.  And we think he's a he.

So far names being tried on are Sprocket, Freckle, Spock (he has pointy
ears), and Sunshine Junior.

If all goes well, he will become a part of Melissa's family, but even if
it doesn't work out we are both determined he will be going to a good
home.  Heck, he's already socialized!  ;-)
Cat Protector - 29 Aug 2004 20:00 GMT
I would put the kitten in the litterbox and take his paw and dig a little in
litter. It is going to take time and patience and you may have to do this
several times until the kitten learns what the box is for.

> Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> it doesn't work out we are both determined he will be going to a good
> home.  Heck, he's already socialized!  ;-)
zuzu22@webtv.net - 29 Aug 2004 20:48 GMT
Often cats that have lived exclusively outdoors all or most of their
lives have no idea what to do when presented with a litterbox with the
expectation that they pee/poop in it. They are used to going in dirt and
have no idea what litter is. Your best option, and one that I have used
many times successfully, is to put dirt from outside in the litterbox.
Putting one of the kittens poops in the box should help as well.
Gradually add litter to/remove dirt from the box until it is changed
over enough that you can dump the contents and use plain litter.

Megan

                                   
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Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 21:24 GMT
> Often cats that have lived exclusively outdoors all or most of their
> lives have no idea what to do when presented with a litterbox with the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Gradually add litter to/remove dirt from the box until it is changed
> over enough that you can dump the contents and use plain litter.

Good idea.  Thanks.

Priscilla
Cat Protector - 29 Aug 2004 21:34 GMT
Well I think the OP said this kitten was about 6 weeks old so they may get
used to a litterbox without the dirt trick. I have to wonder where the
mother cat is though. 6 weeks seems kind of young to be taking this kitten
away from the mother.

> Often cats that have lived exclusively outdoors all or most of their
> lives have no idea what to do when presented with a litterbox with the
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
KellyH - 29 Aug 2004 21:59 GMT
> Well I think the OP said this kitten was about 6 weeks old so they may get
> used to a litterbox without the dirt trick. I have to wonder where the
> mother cat is though. 6 weeks seems kind of young to be taking this kitten
> away from the mother.

Go back and read her whole post again.  She said what happened regarding the
mother.  Her neighbor trapped the kitten and the mother is a neighborhood
stray/feral.

Even though 6 weeks is young to take a kitten away from his mother, if the
mother is indeed feral, it is better for the kitten to start becoming
socialized now.  Which, it seems you are having much success at!

You may also want to try taking a damp cottonball to his behind after he
eats, stroking him gently with it.  Then, put him right in the litterbox.
Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
www.kelltek.com
Check out www.snittens.com

Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 22:48 GMT
> Even though 6 weeks is young to take a kitten away from his mother, if the
> mother is indeed feral, it is better for the kitten to start becoming
> socialized now.  Which, it seems you are having much success at!

He's coming along great!  He even let me read while he was curled up
under my chin just now, not demanding petting or attention, just
snoozing in a little black and white ball.  When I come in the room now,
instead of huddling in the back of the cage he either dances up to be
let out and cuddled or else gets up from sleeping and takes a nice long
stretch before demanding *out*.  :-)

He is very very cute, as you probably can tell.  Melissa was over
earlier today, and we were talking while she petted him.  I looked down
at him and he had his little face raised watching her face intently
while she talked.  :-)  He's probably going to live with her eventually,
or if not then with a good friend of hers.  Melissa has three cats
already, one of whom is special needs (grown-up kitten of a mom with
distemper), and the special needs cat's needs need to be considered
first.  I think it might work out, though.  I hope so, because I don't
want to lose touch with Sprocket.

> You may also want to try taking a damp cottonball to his behind after he
> eats, stroking him gently with it.  Then, put him right in the litterbox.

OK.  I thought he was too old to need that, though.  He pees and poops
at other times (when I'm not there or asleep).  I'll give it a short
before resorting to dirt.

Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 22:49 GMT
> > Even though 6 weeks is young to take a kitten away from his mother, if the
> > mother is indeed feral, it is better for the kitten to start becoming
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> at other times (when I'm not there or asleep).  I'll give it a short
> before resorting to dirt.

Oh, I forgot to say thank you!

Priscilla
Wendy - 29 Aug 2004 23:47 GMT
> > Even though 6 weeks is young to take a kitten away from his mother, if the
> > mother is indeed feral, it is better for the kitten to start becoming
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Priscilla

He is too old to *need* that. However, try standing him in the litter box,
take his paws and scratch, then gently wipe his bum. Then take his paws and
scratch again. It will probably only take a time or two before he gets the
picture and is using the box on his own. It's always worked with my foster
kitties.

W
Priscilla Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 00:57 GMT
> He is too old to *need* that. However, try standing him in the litter box,
> take his paws and scratch, then gently wipe his bum.

That'll be good exercise for me, too, since I have to lean in through
the top door in the big cage in order to reach the box.  ;-)

> Then take his paws and
> scratch again. It will probably only take a time or two before he gets the
> picture and is using the box on his own. It's always worked with my foster
> kitties.

Okey dokey.  I've tried the things separately, but not together.  He's a
little tired of being "worked on" now, though, and he's getting a rest
with a warm wrapped hot water bottle and a darkened room.  When I give
him his evening snack and cuddle (as opposed to his midnight snack and
cuddle -- he eats maybe a teaspoon of food each time) I'll try that
gambit.

I am determined to have him box trained before my mother arrives on
Wednesday.

Thanks!

Priscilla
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 00:10 GMT
> > Even though 6 weeks is young to take a kitten away from his mother, if the
> > mother is indeed feral, it is better for the kitten to start becoming
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> at other times (when I'm not there or asleep).  I'll give it a short
> before resorting to dirt.

Yes, if you can get him to pee or poop by the cloth stimulating deal - & as
a result he's put into the box mid-pee or poop, or immediately afterwards,
that might start the association thing.

Any chance of a pic of him on abpa??

Cathy
Priscilla Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 00:53 GMT

> Any chance of a pic of him on abpa??

Yeah, I've got to get my act in gear.

Priscilla
Cat Protector - 30 Aug 2004 00:19 GMT
I missed that part as the message got cut off over here.

> Go back and read her whole post again.  She said what happened regarding the
> mother.  Her neighbor trapped the kitten and the mother is a neighborhood
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You may also want to try taking a damp cottonball to his behind after he
> eats, stroking him gently with it.  Then, put him right in the litterbox.
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 22:40 GMT
> Well I think the OP said this kitten was about 6 weeks old so they may get
> used to a litterbox without the dirt trick. I have to wonder where the
> mother cat is though. 6 weeks seems kind of young to be taking this kitten
> away from the mother.

Hmmm.  I thought that was covered in the initial posting.  The full
details are that my idiot neighbors used a water hose to drive the
kitten out from where it and a sibling were hiding behind some steps.  
They claimed they were "stuck."  I think their mother tucked them there
for safety while she went off hunting.

I managed to convince them to leave the second one alone (with a dish of
sardines and one of water close by) in hopes that Mom would come back
and retrieve him.  The one that they'd already "saved" had been handled
so much that I was worried that Mom might reject it based on smell.  
NONE of them wanted the kitten!  One family had a daughter who wanted
it, but the parents said no, and the other family had a daughter who is
severely allergic.  They had called me down the street because they know
about cats, so they kind of turned to me and held out the kitten.  So I
took it, figuring that was the best of a lot of alternatives.

I've now had 24 hours to bond with the kitten and see it progress in its
trust and comfort level, and a little while ago the girl who wanted the
kitten came knocking on my door asking for the kitten back to give to
her aunt.  I told her:  1) my friend Melissa and I were now in charge of
the cat and I had to talk to her, since she was probably also wanting to
take it and 2) it was too young to go anywhere yet.  No way am I giving
that kitten to relatives of those idiots.  They let their dog run loose
on our (admittedly quiet) street, and they let their daughter's first
cat go outside.  

I'm not letting that kitten go to anyone until 1)  it's had its vet
checkup and had its parasite problems and eye discharge resolved  and 2)
it's at least 8 - 12 weeks old and figured out what its litter box is
for and that the dish of food in its cage can be eaten any time and it
doesn't have to be deliberately fed by a caregiver.

They have to understand that they handed over responsbility, and I've
taken that responsibility!

End of sermon.

Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 22:50 GMT
> > Well I think the OP said this kitten was about 6 weeks old so they may get
> > used to a litterbox without the dirt trick. I have to wonder where the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> it, but the parents said no, and the other family had a daughter who is
> severely allergic.  They had called me down the street because they know

because they know I KNOW

> about cats, so they kind of turned to me and held out the kitten.  So I
> took it, figuring that was the best of a lot of alternatives.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Priscilla
Priscilla H Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 23:45 GMT
In rec.pets.cats.rescue Priscilla Ballou <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote:

>I've now had 24 hours to bond with the kitten and see it progress in its
>trust and comfort level, and a little while ago the girl who wanted the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>They have to understand that they handed over responsbility, and I've
>taken that responsibility!

The girl now came back, backed up by her older sister.  She says her
brother says he found the cat, so it's his, and he wants it back.  I stuck
to my guns, saying that when they gave the cat to me they gave me
responsibility for it.

This is very hard, and I may end up in a bad relationship with a neighbor
over it.  But this sweet kitten is going to my friend who's already in
love with it, or to her friend, not to these people who don't know how to
treat animals.

*sh.t*

Priscilla
Cheryl - 30 Aug 2004 00:19 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Priscilla H
Ballou <phb@shell01.TheWorld.com> artfully composed this message
within <news:cgtman$r9t$1@pcls4.std.com> on 29 Aug 2004:

>>They have to understand that they handed over responsbility, and
>>I've taken that responsibility!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> who's already in love with it, or to her friend, not to these
> people who don't know how to treat animals.

Rough situation, but I agree with your first instincts, and to stick
to your guns if you can. Poor baby.. s/he's in good hands now.

Signature

Cheryl

Priscilla Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 00:53 GMT
> In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Priscilla H
> Ballou <phb@shell01.TheWorld.com> artfully composed this message
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Rough situation, but I agree with your first instincts, and to stick
> to your guns if you can. Poor baby.. s/he's in good hands now.

My nextdoor neighbors just came over, because I called them to run the
situation by them.  Susan says the kitten looks more like 4 weeks to
her, which had been my initial estimate before the vet on the phone
weighed in.  They, too, told me I was doing the right thing.

Priscilla
Cathy Friedmann - 30 Aug 2004 00:23 GMT
> In rec.pets.cats.rescue Priscilla Ballou <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> to my guns, saying that when they gave the cat to me they gave me
> responsibility for it.

IMO, you are correct.  Plus, her older sister is not a parent.

> This is very hard, and I may end up in a bad relationship with a neighbor
> over it.  But this sweet kitten is going to my friend who's already in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Priscilla

What about the other kitten?  Did momma cat come back for it?

Cathy
Priscilla Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 00:52 GMT

> What about the other kitten?  Did momma cat come back for it?

I don't know, but I'm guessing that since they're not mentioning it, she
did.

I'm not going to go ask them!  LOL!

Priscilla
Karen Chuplis - 30 Aug 2004 02:46 GMT
> In rec.pets.cats.rescue Priscilla Ballou <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Priscilla

Priscilla, they *will* get over it. I highly doubt the parents are all that
keen about it, but are giving into kiddy complaints. You stick to your guns.
There is really nothing they can do.
Priscilla Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 03:15 GMT
> Priscilla, they *will* get over it. I highly doubt the parents are all that
> keen about it, but are giving into kiddy complaints. You stick to your guns.
> There is really nothing they can do.

Well, we do have to live just a few houses apart until one or t'other
decides to sell (unlikely), but thanks.  I have a very hard time dealing
with other people not liking things I do or say, and this is setting off
a lot of anxiety for me.  I'm supposed to be cleaning house for my
mother's visit later this week, and the anxiety is really grinding away.  
So every once in a while I go upstairs, give Sprocket another teaspoon
of food if he's interested, and snuggle for a while.  He's a very good
snuggle kitten.  ;-)

Oh, and did I say that my nextdoor neighbor came over and says that she
agrees with my original assessment that he's more like 4 weeks old than
6 weeks old?  The vet didn't see him before estimating.  She was going
on a description over the phone.  He's *really* a little guy.  Ain't no
way some clueless kids are getting their paws on such a tiny critter, if
I have anything to say about it!  So there.  ;-)

Priscilla
MacCandace - 30 Aug 2004 05:00 GMT
<< Ain't no
way some clueless kids are getting their paws on such a tiny critter, if
I have anything to say about it! >>

And you do, possession is 9/10 of the law, as they say.  They willingly
relinquished the kitten.  If need be, tell them you now know the kitten is only
4 weeks old and need constant care and vet attention, which you are getting for
it.  If they think it needs a vet, they may lose interest.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Priscilla H Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 16:53 GMT
MacCandace <maccandace@aol.comlitter> quoth:
><< Ain't no
>way some clueless kids are getting their paws on such a tiny critter, if
>I have anything to say about it! >>

>And you do, possession is 9/10 of the law, as they say.  They willingly
>relinquished the kitten.  If need be, tell them you now know the kitten is only
>4 weeks old and need constant care and vet attention, which you are getting for
>it.  If they think it needs a vet, they may lose interest.

I kinda already did that, and they said that the sister of the aunt who
wants it is a vet.  But it's 99-100% certain now that Sprocket's going to
be living with my friend Melissa, and she's happy with my fostering him
for now.

Priscilla
Wendy - 30 Aug 2004 11:55 GMT
> > Priscilla, they *will* get over it. I highly doubt the parents are all that
> > keen about it, but are giving into kiddy complaints. You stick to your guns.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Priscilla

If the neighbors say anything just exaggerate a little and tell them that
he's so young he has to be bottle fed every 3 hours and isn't box trained
yet. I doubt they will be keen to take on the care of this kitten and that
will be the end of it.

W
Priscilla H Ballou - 30 Aug 2004 16:56 GMT
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Wendy <wendypart@nospam.com> wrote:

>If the neighbors say anything just exaggerate a little and tell them that
>he's so young he has to be bottle fed every 3 hours and isn't box trained
>yet. I doubt they will be keen to take on the care of this kitten and that
>will be the end of it.

Actually, I've been wondering if he might do well with a supplemental
bottle, and I'm going to ask the vet about that on Wednesday.  I think
he'd really groove on being nursed.  He loves to be held close to a warm
body and petted.  Really misses his Mommy, poor little sprout.

Oh, and he's NOT box trained!  Oh, well, he may be because I've been doing
little exercises with him and there was no poop on his blanket this
morning, but I'm not counting my chickens yet.

Priscilla
Samantha G. - 31 Aug 2004 17:40 GMT
In a much earlier posting, you mentioned your friend Melissa had a
kitten with special needs from the mother having distemper. I wondered
what that entailed. I ask because I have a kitten I am handraising,
and she has multiple problems. The vet claims she has a birth defect,
but I wonder if the mother (a stray) might have had something, because
she has eyesight, joint, and growth problems. She is also very
stunted, weighing only 10 oz at 5 wks. I just wondered if any of these
were the problems your friend's cat encountered?
Priscilla Ballou - 31 Aug 2004 18:23 GMT
> In a much earlier posting, you mentioned your friend Melissa had a
> kitten with special needs from the mother having distemper. I wondered
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> stunted, weighing only 10 oz at 5 wks. I just wondered if any of these
> were the problems your friend's cat encountered?

Hazel aka Boo-boo is a grown cat now, but she's never gotten very big.  
She's maybe 5 pounds after eating her dinner, but her big thing is lack
of coordination.  Her hind quarters don't coordinate properly with her
fore quarters, so she staggers and falls over a lot.  She can't climb or
jump and, as I implied, her balance is lousy.

I don't think she has any vision or hearing problems that I recall.  She
is, however, a very sweet and loving cat.  She and I had a serious
cuddlefest when I met her.  Melissa says she doesn't warm up quickly to
people, but she took to me like a mouse to cheese.  

Melissa didn't know what exactly was wrong with her because they found
her in a dumpster when she was a tiny kitten, IIRC.  For years she and
the vets (who I would have expected to have some more knowledge) just
said unspecified neurological damage, but then someone who'd had a
similar cat took one look at her and said her mother had had distemper,
that that kind of neurological damage was typical of that situation.

Hope this helps!

Priscilla
Karen Chuplis - 01 Sep 2004 00:34 GMT
>> In a much earlier posting, you mentioned your friend Melissa had a
>> kitten with special needs from the mother having distemper. I wondered
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Priscilla

My vet had four kittens whose mother had distemper to adopt out. They seemed
normal except for coordination and they shook their heads like someone with
Parkison's might.  They said they were quite healthy aside from that.
Cathy Friedmann - 29 Aug 2004 21:49 GMT
> Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Is he not old enough to have good enough control yet to use the box?  Or
> what?

I can't remember at what age a litter of little kittens I was caring for in
the 70's started to use the box, or when Debbie's kittens did - in '86 (she
was a pregnant stray when my sister found her, & was later spayed).  I
trained the 70's kittens very simply: I kept putting them in the box now &
again over the course of a few days.  Finally one of the kittens peed in the
box, & that was that; he then continued to use the box & the other kittens
in the litter followed suit.

With your kitten: how about taking his leavings & putting them in the box,
to give him a hint?  That's easy to do w/ the poop, not sure about the pee -
maybe soak it up w/ a paper towel, then bury the towel in the litter a
little to release the odor for him?

Cathy

> We're guessing he's six weeks old from a telephone conversation with a
> vet.  We're taking him in for a checkup and parasite treatment in a day
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> it doesn't work out we are both determined he will be going to a good
> home.  Heck, he's already socialized!  ;-)
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Aug 2004 22:54 GMT

> I can't remember at what age a litter of little kittens I was caring for in
> the 70's started to use the box, or when Debbie's kittens did - in '86 (she
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> box, & that was that; he then continued to use the box & the other kittens
> in the litter followed suit.

Yeah, I've been putting him in, but I'm going to try making his paw dig
a bit, also the buried poop thing you suggest below and which I'd
already thought of.

> With your kitten: how about taking his leavings & putting them in the box,
> to give him a hint?  That's easy to do w/ the poop, not sure about the pee -
> maybe soak it up w/ a paper towel, then bury the towel in the litter a
> little to release the odor for him?

Good idea.  Unfortunately he'd peed all over the tail of the stuffed
animal I'd put in there for him to cuddle with, and I had to wash it off
in the sink.  I should have soaked the pee off with paper towel first.  
Ah, well.  I'm sure there'll be more!

Priscilla
 
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