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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2004Feline Leukemia - need suggestions for postive cat living with negative cat.
3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been spayed/neutered and the shelter said that the tests for all 3 deadly cat virus (includ FeLV) came back negative. At the time the cats were sniffling a little, but I was told they were getting over a "cold" (I later learned cats don't get colds and that they were getting a respitory infection but I digress). I took the 2 cats to the vet for a checkup but since they had just gotten shots a short time ago and they were sick I was told to bring them back in two weeks. During the two weeks the female's stools were constantly soft and both were sneezing. The male's sneezing was more violent (often shooting out bloody snot) and more often and he had congestion problems (especially when the AC was on). Today I brought them to the vet and the vet decided to do a blood test even though both cats had previously tested negative. Well the FeLV ELIZA test came back positive on the female, but negative on the male. The vet recommended a retest in a month. Well, the male and female have been sharing food, water and litter boxes since I got them (and probably before that). They have been (playfully) biting each other and sneezing on each other a lot. This means most likely that the male is already infected and will become positive at some point. So now I'm stuck with a problem. The vet officially recommended separating the two in my house, but he and I both agreed that isn't feasible. The alternative is to get rid of one of the cats, but because they've been together so long neither of them could be placed in another house with cats nor could they go back to the shelter (where the positive cat would most likely be killed). Remember both were already sick to begin with. So my question is, what should I do now? Should I give up the positive cat (which might recover) to save the negative cat (which may already be infected) or just stick to the norm and hope things work out? Or is there another solution that I'm not seeing? Any suggestions? P.S. - They are indoor cats and have not come in contact with other cats since leaving the shelter so my assumption is that she was infected at the shelter so I contacted them. They want to run their own ELIZA blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative since I have heard this happen before with it. It sounds like the cats had an upper respiratory infection. I have to wonder if your vet is out to make a little money here by giving you another test. I would find a more credible vet and have this re-checked as something doesn't sound right here. > 3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from > same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. > If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative since I have > heard this happen before with it. It sounds like the cats had an upper > respiratory infection. I have to wonder if your vet is out to make a little > money here by giving you another test. I would find a more credible vet and > have this re-checked as something doesn't sound right here. He said the shelter is running a different test, which IS the correct thing to do. The "snap" test can produce a false positive sometimes. There really isn't much money to be made in running a test.  Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com He stated the shelter said the test was negative while the vet says it is positive. Both run pretty much the same test. As for the money, try telling that to the vet. Sometimes the vets charge just as much for the tests as they do the shots. I take my cats to the clinics because they can get the same thing (shots, etc.) for half the cost. > He said the shelter is running a different test, which IS the correct thing > to do. The "snap" test can produce a false positive sometimes. There > really isn't much money to be made in running a test. > He stated the shelter said the test was negative while the vet says it is > positive. Both run pretty much the same test. As for the money, try telling > that to the vet. Sometimes the vets charge just as much for the tests as > they do the shots. I take my cats to the clinics because they can get the > same thing (shots, etc.) for half the cost. From the original post: They are indoor cats and have not come in contact with other cats since leaving the shelter so my assumption is that she was infected at the shelter so I contacted them. They want to run their own ELIZA blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com << If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative since I have heard this happen before with it. >> I've heard that, too. If the cat really is positive, though, I would still keep both of them at this point. If he's had the vaccine, then he has some protection (not total, by any means) and, as you say, he may already be infected at this point. Keep both of them and continue to vaccinate the male as long as he continues to test negative. Keep them as healthy as possible with a stress-free life. Some cats never get sick from FeLV and some do but recover. I think it's best that they are kept together. You're probably right that no one would take either now, under these circumstances. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) I would get a second opinion though regarding the FELV test. It's very possible the shelter is correct and they are negative. I know at the Humane Society they are able to tell as soon as the blood is taken what the results are. They also have vets on staff. I know to save money I prefer to take my cats to the clinics because a lot of vets are outrageous in prices and will even charge for another test just to make money. You are right that some cats never get sick from FELV and even if they have it, they can live long lives with the right treatment. I too think it is best to keep them together and if the original OP is really uneasy then she should take the cat to a different vet and clinic and have them re-tested. "MacCandace" <maccandace@aol.comlitter> wrote in message > I've heard that, too. If the cat really is positive, though, I would still > keep both of them at this point. If he's had the vaccine, then he has some [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) >I would get a second opinion though regarding the FELV test. It's very >possible the shelter is correct and they are negative. I know at the Humane >Society they are able to tell as soon as the blood is taken what the results >are. They also have vets on staff. I know to save money I prefer to take my >cats to the clinics because a lot of vets are outrageous in prices and will >even charge for another test just to make money. 1. The OP has already said the shelter has offered to do another ELISA test. 2. If positive, the shelter is going to run an IFA test FREE OF CHARGE. To better understand the difference, and differences in reliability, here is a graph taken from http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/releasing.htm "For FIV, most veterinarians use the ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immunoabsorbent Assay) test, which detects whether FIV antibodies are present in the blood - not whether the virus itself is present. As a result, the test is completely unreliable for cats under six months of age who may have received FIV antibodies from their nursing mother, but may never have been exposed to the actual virus. For adult cats, because of the recent introduction of the FIV vaccine, there is now the possibility a positive test result means a cat has been vaccinated, not infected. For FeLV, again the ELISA test is almost always the initial test used. In contrast to FIV, the FeLV ELISA does not detect antibodies, but whether the antigen of the virus is present in the blood. In other words, a positive test result indicates the presence of the actual FeLV virus in the blood. But, the test is extremely sensitive and is prone to false positives from improper handling. In addition, a cat in the early stages of FeLV infection can still fight it off. The disease does not take permanent hold until it enters the cat's white blood cells, which only another type of test, the IFA test (Immunofluoresence Assay, also known as the Hardy test) can determine. The IFA test must be performed at a lab and is more expensive. Consequently, if a cat appears otherwise healthy, a positive ELISA test should always be confirmed with an IFA test. Only if other severe pathological symptoms of FeLV are present should an initial positive ELISA ever be relied upon alone." > >I would get a second opinion though regarding the FELV test. It's very A simple CBC with Diff can give pretty conclusive results. A depressed white count, excessive lymphs and nucleated RBC's pretty much tag it. LT I believe you are referring to FIV vaccine, not FELV vaccine--big difference.... > If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative since I have > heard this happen before with it. It sounds like the cats had an upper [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. No, I am talking about the FELV vaccine which isn't really effective in preventing the disease and can throw up a false positive. > I believe you are referring to FIV vaccine, not FELV vaccine--big > difference.... Not to be contrary, I had posted this question once several months ago and got many replies saying that it was the FIV vaccine that could show a false positive. Also, did my own research and confirmed that on various vet school sites, including Cornell... > No, I am talking about the FELV vaccine which isn't really effective in > preventing the disease and can throw up a false positive. > > > I believe you are referring to FIV vaccine, not FELV vaccine--big > > difference.... Nope it is the FELV vaccine. When I was taking Icarus in to get his shots even the rescue groups warned me that the FELV shot not only can cause health problems but also can throw up a false positive. As for the FIV vaccine there is no cure for FIV as there is no cure for FELV. Also if you keep your cats indoors then the risk of your cats is lessened because your cats can't be exposed to an outdoor cat that already has it. > Not to be contrary, I had posted this question once several months ago and > got many replies saying that it was the FIV vaccine that could show a false > positive. Also, did my own research and confirmed that on various vet > school sites, including Cornell... > No, I am talking about the FELV vaccine which isn't really effective in > preventing the disease It sure is effective in kittens and young cats <4 months old. > and can throw up a false positive. No, it can't. The ELISA tests for p27 *antigen* which is produced by *live* *replicating* virus. The virus in the vaccine is *killed* which means the vaccine virus does not produce p27 antigen. Ok. Then how come so many cats have died from the disease if it is so curable. FELV is one of the deadliest of diseases in cats. If every cat that had the vaccine the virus could not spread. Also every rescue would recommend the shots. Most of them don't. "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message news:ur2dnaOOtO96mLTcRVn-> No, it can't. The ELISA tests for p27 *antigen* which is produced by *live* > *replicating* virus. The virus in the vaccine is *killed* which means the > vaccine virus does not produce p27 antigen. > Ok. Then how come so many cats have died from the disease if it is so > curable. Who said FeLV is "so curable"? From where did you conjure up that notion? Most of the cats that die from FeLV acquired the virus at a young age (<4 months) and die 2-5 years later. FELV is one of the deadliest of diseases in cats. If every cat that > had the vaccine the virus could not spread. No vaccine is 100% effective. The vaccine is very effective in kittens and young cats <4 months old. Most (>70%) adult cats reject the virus and resist infection. Also every rescue would > recommend the shots. Most of them don't. As if you actually knew... Most rescue organizations certainly *do* recommend the FeLV vaccine for young cats at risk of infection and even adult cats at high risk. > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message news:ur2dnaOOtO96mLTcRVn-> > No, it can't. The ELISA tests for p27 *antigen* which is produced by *live* > > *replicating* virus. The virus in the vaccine is *killed* which means the > > vaccine virus does not produce p27 antigen. In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> artfully composed this message within <news:5dSdnaLPKOcnibTcRVn-ug@giganews.com> on 22 Aug 2004: > No vaccine is 100% effective. The vaccine is very effective in > kittens and young cats <4 months old. Most (>70%) adult cats > reject the virus and resist infection. This makes me feel better about Bonnie! She was young (~5 monthsish) when I took her in and she was vaccinated, and had a booster before she was ever out of the cage. She had a good 2-3 months before ever mingling with Shadow. She's getting tested this month (as soon as I get up the nerve to try to get her in to the vet again!) SignatureCheryl > In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Phil P." > <phil@maxshouse.com> artfully composed this message within [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > mingling with Shadow. She's getting tested this month (as soon as I > get up the nerve to try to get her in to the vet again!) Was she tested at the time you took her in? Keep the faith. Phil In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> artfully composed this message within <news:hs- dnf-WZNg7gbTcRVn-oQ@giganews.com> on 22 Aug 2004: > Was she tested at the time you took her in? > > Keep the faith. Yes, she had an ELISA at the time she was spayed. It was negative for both. Even though the FLV vaccination isn't 100%, it was better than none at all. SignatureCheryl > In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Phil P." > <phil@maxshouse.com> artfully composed this message within [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > mingling with Shadow. She's getting tested this month (as soon as I > get up the nerve to try to get her in to the vet again!) From what I understand about FeLV, she has a good chance of being healthy. I asked one of my vets about this whole deal a few years ago, when friend's cat died of the disease. (The cat was a few years old, & apparently had contracted it when young; full history when a kitten not known.) He told me that most cats who die of it were not vaccinated when kittens & acquired the virus when they were less than 18 months old. Other cats who acquire FeLV get sick periodically but live long lives, & others are basically asymptomatic. Cathy In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Chris" <tisme@mindspring.com> artfully composed this message within <news:qF2Wc.311$Y%3.101@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> on 22 Aug 2004: >> If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative >> since I have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> credible vet and >> have this re-checked as something doesn't sound right here. > I believe you are referring to FIV vaccine, not FELV > vaccine--big difference.... I believe you are correct. I had a FeLV+ cat for 2 years, and the other two were vaccinated immediately, and had their boosters. My FeLV+ cat passed away (RIP Shadow, I love you always) last month and one cat has just retested negative, and now one more to go. SignatureCheryl > If you got the FELV shots then it is possibly a false negative since I have > heard this happen before with it. Vaccination with FeLV or other feline vaccines doesn't alter test results because, a - the ELISA Snap and IFA test for viral antigens or infectious virus not antibodies to FeLV or other antigens; and, b - the FeLV vaccine produces antibodies against gp70 antigen, not p27 antigen. It still can throw up a false positive. > Vaccination with FeLV or other feline vaccines doesn't alter test results > because, a - the ELISA Snap and IFA test for viral antigens or infectious > virus not antibodies to FeLV or other antigens; and, b - the FeLV vaccine > produces antibodies against gp70 antigen, not p27 antigen. > It still can throw up a false positive. No, the vaccine cannot "throw up" a false positive. There are other reasons for false-positives but vaccination isn't one of them. > > Vaccination with FeLV or other feline vaccines doesn't alter test results > > because, a - the ELISA Snap and IFA test for viral antigens or infectious > > virus not antibodies to FeLV or other antigens; and, b - the FeLV vaccine > > produces antibodies against gp70 antigen, not p27 antigen. >ews.com> > >> It still can throw up a false positive. > >No, the vaccine cannot "throw up" a false positive. There are other reasons >for false-positives but vaccination isn't one of them. Phil. Put your helmet on. 'Cause you're gonna be banging your head against the proverbial brick wall before long. :-) Sherry > >ews.com> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry I know most of the regulars realize he has issues; I worry about the newbies believing his conjured up nonsense. Phil >>news:eO7Wc.126542$sh.18987@fed1read06... >> >> It still can throw up a false positive. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Phil Oh, hey, this thread is very worthwhile. There's a lot of mis-information around about feleuk and the ELISA tests. It's always good to get brushed up on the facts, although I hope personally I never need them again. We lost a cat in the very early 90's to feleuk. It is a dreadful disease. Sherry > >>news:eO7Wc.126542$sh.18987@fed1read06... > >> >> It still can throw up a false positive. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Sherry We haven't had nearly as many cases in the last few years as we used to. There's some credible evidence that the overall rate of FeLV infection is actually decreasing. The first FeLV vaccine came out in '85, but the decline in the overall infection rate began before then. There's a study of FeLV infection dynamics in the VMDB at Purdue that estimates the rate of FeLV vaccination is still too low to be responsible for overall decrease in the prevalence of FeLV in the general feline population. So, it seems like cats have been developing a natural resistance to the virus over the millennia. Its been around long enough - since the late Pleistocene - about 1 to 10 million years ago. Phil Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a home & Tucson who turned out to be FELV+ [probably her whole life], I have read a lot about this disease though I certainly would never claim to know even close to all about it--- My understanding is that a 'false' positive Elissa is actually a test on a cat who is in earlier stage of disease but who ultimately fights it off--so IFA, which I understand, tests later progression is important. Also, I understand that it is not all that easily transmitted but that the young kittens are more susceptible. In my situation, Tucson had been with my other 3 cats for 5+ years, they tested neg (I will retest) and I therefore chose to vaccinate and mix everybody as they'd all been exposed (unknowlingly) for years.... One other thing I understand is that depending on the stage the virus is in, you can get false neg on Elissa and that there is a larger 'window' for kittens to be tested. All in all, I just sort of assume this is a disease that has been around a long, long time and those of us who remember as kids having cats who basically were indoor/outdoor, never really got regular vaccinations, went to vet only under DIRE circumstances also remember that some cats just got sick & died earlier than others.... Sometimes, ignorance is better... I realize there is no real 'cure' but good diet, creature comforts, etc. go a long way. Vet did give Tucson immuno-regulin as her WBC was real low & I now give them all some extra vitamins, vitamin c, etc. & am keeping my fingers crossed. I've seen a lot of discussion about interferon but am not sure I want to start that at this point as neither BB nor Tucson are asymptomatic at this time (they're 5 1/2 & 3+ years old)..we'll see. > > >>news:eO7Wc.126542$sh.18987@fed1read06... > > >> >> It still can throw up a false positive. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Phil << Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a home >> I remember you, Chris! so you kept Big Boy, that's good news. Glad they all seem to be doing fine. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) > << Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV > Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a home >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) OHHH! I remembered the name Big Boy, but I couldn't place it. Glad to hear Big Boy's doing well and he has a forever home...with you! Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com Thanks for remembering.... very soon after I posted, one of my cats, Tucson, was feeling a little poorly, (wouldn't eat!--big deal for the 15 lb porko!) & vet couldn't find anything wrong but tested her for FELV--lo & behold, she tested+--I know absolutely know she didn't get from BB as they were completely separated & two vets I worked with are sure she had it since birth (she was a kitten when I got her after she fell into the wall of my parents' apt from the roof ac vent!). I had her tested then but it is likely she had already been exposed and it was just too early for it to show up... Anyway, I did find a home way out of state for BB but decided at this point that one more, well we'd try. He is doing real well-very socialized--my problem really is that Tucson can't stand him and he is terrified of her. I am trying another slow reintro and there are good days and bad days... He sort of runs if one of the other guys even looks at him crooked-he's just that kind of cat! Anyway, I'd love to keep him because he is just such a sweetheart but its been rough as I have to separate the two of them otherwise she'll really hurt him--really floored me as she is the mellowest, most laid back, (dare I say, lazy?) of all of them and just wants to spend her days eating, sleeping, and being cuddled... She just goes bananas when she sees him--totally out of control! I get pretty discouraged as its not good for either of them... if anybody has any ideas on how to just get Tucson to ignore him!!!!! > << Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV > Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a home >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) > Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV > Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a home > & Tucson who turned out to be FELV+ [probably her whole life], I have read a > lot about this disease though I certainly would never claim to know even > close to all about it--- Don't feel bad, Chris - I've been researching this disease since it was discovered in '64 and I don't know much more now than I did then. So far you have your facts correct. My understanding is that a 'false' positive Elissa > is actually a test on a cat who is in earlier stage of disease but who > ultimately fights it off A false-positive as you described is actually a transient infection. "False positive" is actually a misnomer because other than operator error, a positive ELISA is detecting virus or viral antigen that actually *is* present in the circulation. A true false-positive is a positive test when no virus or viral antigen is present in the blood. The ELISA is much more sensitive than IFA, so its capable of detecting an infection much earlier than IFA. Since most cats resist their initial infection and eventually clear the virus, many ELISAs are termed "false positives" and should be confirmed by IFA. A complicating factor is latent infections where most cats usually don't have replicating FeLV and therefore, no viral antigen is produced for detection. A latent infection can be reactivated by stress or immune suppression. There are also documented cases of reactivation of latent infections following glucocorticoid therapy. Neither the ELISA nor IFA can detect latent infections; they require a highly specialized test. Fortunately, latent infections are very uncommon.... but still they're always in the back of my mind for a year. The more time passes, the more difficult latent infections are to reactivate. --so IFA, which I understand, tests later > progression is important. Correct. IFA detects infected WBCs and platelets which usually indicates a marrow-origin infection. It takes anywhere from 1-3 months for the infection to reach the bone marrow. However, a positive IFA doesn't always indicate persistent viremia and permanent infection. A positive IFA means the cat is either developing persistent marrow-origin viremia or is rejecting transient marrow-origin viremia . Positive IFAs should also be retested in 3, 6, and 12 months. I've had a few very, very pleasant surprises on the 6 month retest! Also, I understand that it is not all that easily > transmitted but that the young kittens are more susceptible. Correct. FeLV is not nearly as contagious in adult cats as once believed. In my > situation, Tucson had been with my other 3 cats for 5+ years, they tested > neg (I will retest) and I therefore chose to vaccinate and mix everybody as > they'd all been exposed (unknowlingly) for years.... I remember a huge study involving ~9000 cases of FeLV in a large group of teaching hospitals some years back that showed as exposure to FeLV accumulates with age - susceptibil?ity to infection simultaneously decreases. But I don't think age-related resistance is unconditional or absolute because some adult FeLV-negative cats still become infected when they're brought into a FeLV home. When older cats do become infected, they tend to have milder signs and a longer period of relatively good health - although they're still infectious to other cats. One other thing I > understand is that depending on the stage the virus is in, you can get false > neg on Elissa and that there is a larger 'window' for kittens to be tested. ELISA is extremely sensitive; ELISA negatives are usually correct - except in the case of operator error or latent infections or possibly very, very early infection. ELISAs usually detect FeLV as early as Phase I. > All in all, I just sort of assume this is a disease that has been around a > long, long time ---about 10 million years. But it wasn't discovered until '64 by Oswald Jarret. and those of us who remember as kids having cats who > basically were indoor/outdoor, never really got regular vaccinations, went > to vet only under DIRE circumstances also remember that some cats just got > sick & died earlier than others.... That's true. In those days, vets didn't know what to look for. The IFA for FeLV didn't come out until '73 and the ELISA a few years later. The first ELISAs were disasterous. > Sometimes, ignorance is better... The more I learn the more I worry about! > I realize there is no real 'cure' but good diet, creature comforts, etc. go > a long way. A good diet and keeping the cat as stress free as possible are good defenses. > Vet did give Tucson immuno-regulin as her WBC was real low & I > now give them all some extra vitamins, vitamin c, etc. & am keeping my > fingers crossed. I've seen a lot of discussion about interferon but am not > sure I want to start that at this point as neither BB nor Tucson are > asymptomatic at this time (they're 5 1/2 & 3+ years old)..we'll see. This may be the best time to start IFN-a - when the viral load is probably at its lowest. Mega-doses of IFN might temporarily reduce the viral load for awhile. Even a temporary reduction in the viral load might allow just enough time for the immune system to build up and clear the virus. Best of luck, Phil > > > >>news:eO7Wc.126542$sh.18987@fed1read06... > > > >> >> It still can throw up a false positive. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Phil Phil--again many thanks--you have a great way of explaining things... can I just ask you a couple of things.. 1) what is glucocorticoid therapy? 2) do I understand that you recommend I retest both BB & Tucson at 6 months post first +IFA test?? Also, I had planned on retesting the other 4 at their Nov checkup--should I ask for IFA or Elissa? 3) I go back and forth on interferon--First, I'm not sure how its administered--BB is much, much more socialized but trying to syringe something into his mouth is still not possible. Is IFN-a a particular type of Interferon? If I do start, should I get some pre-tests and ongoing monitoring tests of some kind to see any effects? Any side effects I should look for? I don't mean to take up your time--if there's a particular web site I could go to, I'd do that if its easier for you... Again, many thanks... > > Thank you Phil--there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about FELV > > Now the owner of 2 FELV+ (Big Boy about whom I posted trying to find a [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] > > > > > > Phil > Phil--again many thanks--you have a great way of explaining things... Are you sure I'm not being to technical? LOL! (private joke) can I > just ask you a couple of things.. > 1) what is glucocorticoid therapy? Steroids - e.g., prednisone. > 2) do I understand that you recommend I retest both BB & Tucson at 6 months > post first +IFA test?? Yes. As I said, a positive IFA could also mean the cat is in the process of clearing a marrow-origin infection. Also, I had planned on retesting the other 4 at > their Nov checkup--should I ask for IFA or Elissa? First the Elisa and if positive, a confirmatory IFA. Although you could opt for the IFA and omit the ELISA. Since your cats have all been together for awhile, I'd probably opt for just the IFA. The difference is that if the ELISA is negative, there's really no need for the IFA, but if the ELISAs are positive you'll need to run confirmatory IFAs. In your case, since all the cats were exposed to the virus, any ELISA positives would be equivocal. Running just the IFA will avoid confusing discordancies between the tests. In your case, the only result I'd be concerned with is the IFA. > 3) I go back and forth on interferon--First, I'm not sure how its > administered--BB is much, much more socialized but trying to syringe > something into his mouth is still not possible. Coat the syringe with butter, cooked bacon fat, or the water tuna fish is packed in. Is IFN-a a particular type > of Interferon? IFN = interferon. r-HuIFN-a = recombinant human interferon-alpha - which is the most common interferon used in cats and the most readily available. I don't think the standard low-dose 30 IU/day, 7 days on/7 days off protocol is all that efficacious. The dose is about the same that a cat with a normal immune system would produce in response to a virus. We've seen the greatest lymphocyte response and reductions in viral loads with doses of 1,000 to 10,000 U/kg IM every 24 hours. The only problem with this high-dose protocol is that cats develop antibodies against human interferon, so you have to limit the therapy to about 6 weeks. If I do start, should I get some pre-tests and ongoing > monitoring tests of some kind to see any effects? Any side effects I should > look for? Low-dose, none. High dose... maybe diarrhea. > I don't mean to take up your time--if there's a particular web site I could > go to, yeah, mine.. but its not finished. http://maxshouse.com or my Yahoo group - Feline_Health_and_Behavior subscribe@yahoogroups.com we have a couple of vets as members. You might want to join the Yahoo FeLV group > I'd do that if its easier for you... I'll try to help as much as I can. Keep the faith! Phil > Again, many thanks... > [quoted text clipped - 190 lines] > > > > > > > > Phil > 3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from > same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. Me, I would just keep them both and treat them symptomatically for the span of their lives. I also, would not be so sure of anything until I got the retest in a month. False positives are not unheard of. > 3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from > same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. Another thought, a poster here had an FeLV positive young cat, but with AGRESSIVE treatment with interferon Mimi tested negative one year later. Since they are young, it might be worth your time to look into that even before the retest. I hope that Mary comments here. 1) Take the shelter up on their offer of IFA--absolutely necessary to verify Elissa test results--remember, Elissa can test + while cat is fighting off infection... 2) talke a look at http://www.felineleukemia.org join their 'Talk List" & you can get some real concrete advice about this condition... 3) don't seperate them---the little guy's already been exposed--if he is -, make sure he has FELV vaccine... I just found out that my 5 1/2 year old indorr (from rescued outdoor kitten) is +--she is basically asymptomatic > 3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from > same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. >So my question is, what should I do now? Should I give up the >positive cat (which might recover) to save the negative cat (which may >already be infected) or just stick to the norm and hope things work >out? Or is there another solution that I'm not seeing? It sounds like they both need to be treated for their upper respiratory infections. Then give them a month or so and retest. False positives are common. I personally would keep them together. One would have probably given it to the other by now if they had it. I read an article in Cat Fancy that said 1/3 can clear the virus, 1/3 can always be positive and live a normal life, 1/3 will die from it in a couple of years. I have a cat that tested positive three times then negative two times. Here's an update: 1. The cats have NOT had vacines against FeLV (the shelter did not do any and neither did the vet). They only had their mandatory shots (distemper, etc). There seems to be some confusion on this. 2. The shelter ran their own test today (two actually) and both came back positive for FeLV on the female and negative on the male. I did some more reading and it said that 40% of healthy adult cats fight off the disease. Unfortunately, young cats don't fair as well, especially cats fighting another infection at the time. So the outlook doesn't look good for her. At this time he is still negative, but I've decided to keep them together as separating them would cause undo stress. I just hope I'm not sentencing the male to death in the process. I'll keep the interferon treatment in mind, but I'm not sure I can afford to take care of two cats with full blown (or even a mild case) of leukemia. The vet gave me some vitamins, but I doubt that will help much. ELISA testing both cats costs around $90 (plus $46 for an examination). I have no idea how much the IFA test cost, but if I have to have them tested every month, then I definately wouldn't be able to afford to keep them. Unfortunately I've already becomes attached to them and them to me. << ELISA testing both cats costs around $90 (plus $46 for an examination). I have no idea how much the IFA test cost, but if I have to have them tested every month, then I definately wouldn't be able to afford to keep them. Unfortunately I've already becomes attached to them and them to me. >> Then I would do what you're going to do, keep them both, give them the vitamins, keep them as healthy as you can and hope for the best. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) Oh, and I would get the make vaccinated as an added protection. It is not 100 precent, by any means, but it might be the difference between him getting it and not getting it. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) If people kept their cats indoors then they wouldn't have to worry. None of my cats get the shots. The only ones they get are the rabies and FVRCPC (4 in 1) and they are kept indoors. > Oh, and I would get the make vaccinated as an added protection. It is not 100 > precent, by any means, but it might be the difference between him getting it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) > If people kept their cats indoors then they wouldn't have to worry. None of > my cats get the shots. The only ones they get are the rabies and FVRCPC (4 > in 1) and they are kept indoors. We are talking about situations here where a non infected cat is living with an infected cat. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com > Here's an update: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > keep them. Unfortunately I've already becomes attached to them and > them to me. Mike, it seems to me that I've heard interferon was not that expensive. I hope you can call around and find a vet that knows about this treatment or consult a university. You really never know how well kitties can respond. It's worth a try. Keep us posted. Mike,,,, Don't despair--you do not have to get them retested every month!.... Also, go ahead and have Shelter do IFA on both! & get them to give the neg FELV vaccination..... I'm assuming they would NOT charge you, have I got that wrong?? As for treatment, there are all sorts of ideas... vitamins (multi-vitamins & vitamin c) can never hurt.. Also, a reasonably good quality cat food, creature comforts, lots of love can certainly reduce stress which, just like in humans, can effect immune suppressed conditions. Look out for eye problems & Upper Respiratory Infections in young ones. But please don't think that you are going to be spending your life at the vet. I'm glad you're keeping both as I'm sure each would be very upset to lose the other... > Here's an update: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > keep them. Unfortunately I've already becomes attached to them and > them to me. > P.S. - > They are indoor cats and have not come in contact with other cats > since leaving the shelter so my assumption is that she was infected at > the shelter so I contacted them. They want to run their own ELIZA > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. Go for the free re-test. The ELISA Snaps are notorious for false positives. "Overdevelopment" and/or an improper washing step will turn a negative into a false positive. ELISA false-negatives are uncommon if not rare and usually the result of a sloppy technique. Also, the ELISA is ~100x more sensitive than the IFA and will produce a positive for a transient infection; the IFA usually takes ~month after infection to produce a positive. Ideally, the ELISA retest and, if positive, the IFA should be run at the same time about a month after the first ELISA. If the ELISA is still positive but the IFA is negative, retest in another month. A positive ELISA and negative IFA usually means the cat is in the process of clearing the virus and is not infectious to other cats. Phil I can not recommend vitamin c therapy highly enough. I too adopted a cat from the shelter thinking he was felv neg, but he turned up positive. He infected one of my other cats. Jack showed no symptoms, but continually tested positive. a year of vitamin c therapy, and he is now negative. there is an incubation period of six weeks for a cat to show up positive. He very well could have been negative at the shelter if they tested him during that incubation period. my cats were also exposed to FIP. their "FIP titers" were originally through the roof and climbing, but now they are also negative. http://www.belfield.com/books.html check out this book. and put your kitties on the highest quality food you can afford. Good luck! > 3 weeks ago I adopted two 4-5 month old kittens (male and female from > same litter) from an animal shelter. They had already been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > blood test and if that comes back postive then run a IFA test (free of > charge). I'm not sure what would happen after that. > I can not recommend vitamin c therapy highly enough. I too adopted a cat > from the shelter thinking he was felv neg, but he turned up positive. He > infected one of my other cats. Jack showed no symptoms, but continually > tested positive. a year of vitamin c therapy, and he is now negative. I'm very happy your cat cleared the virus, but the vitamin C therapy was not responsible. Your cat probably cleared the virus on his own - most cats do. Here's an excerpt from the Cornell Feline Health Center's FeLV website: "Are massive doses of vitamin C effective against FeLV? There is no scientific documentation that vitamin C cures cats of leukemia. Controlled studies of feline viral rhinotracheitis, canine distemper, and human respiratory infections have failed to show effectiveness of high doses of vitamin C. Of course, a multivitamin and mineral supplement may be helpful to any sick animal that is not eating properly; however, there is little evidence to support claims that such a supplement can cure any of those conditions. Other than providing general support to the animal's health, vitamin and mineral supplements, in our estimation, are not effective in preventing the spread of FeLV within a cattery and certainly will not cure an individual cat of its infection." http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/felv.html Phil > > I can not recommend vitamin c therapy highly enough. I too adopted a cat > > from the shelter thinking he was felv neg, but he turned up positive. He [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There is no scientific documentation that vitamin C cures cats of leukemia. there is no scientific documentation because the scientists have failed to do studies. there are numerous real life situations though where vitamin c therapy has worked. The common feeling is that cats produce enough vitamin c on their own. but cats were designed to eat creatures who produced vitamin c. they don't any more, and there for, dr. belfield and MANY holistic vets believe in supplementing. my cat tested positive twice, three months apart. the others had their "fip titers' tested and they were on the increase. even if all the antidotal evidence is wrong, and the scientists who are failing to do any in-depth study into this are right, there is no down side to vitamin c therapy, and if perchance the thousands of cats on it who are in good health are right, then what is the harm? > > > I can not recommend vitamin c therapy highly enough. I too adopted a > cat [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > there is no scientific documentation because the scientists have failed to > do studies. No. You failed to do your own research. I think you definitely need to do some research before you make erroneous and rather absurd statements like that. Of course studies in vitamin C therapy have been conducted and published in veterinary texts and peer-reviewed medical journals for almost 20 years! there are numerous real life situations though where vitamin c > therapy has worked. A more reasonable explanation would be the cat cleared the virus on his own - which most cats do. In such cases, any therapy would appear to work. There have been many alleged "cures" for FeLV over the years; the few that do seem to work (vitamin-C isn't one of them), work only under certain conditions and within a narrow time frame. > dr. belfield Ah! Now I understand the basis for your misguided opinions. If Belfield's wonder cure for FeLV was remotely efficacious, don't you think it would be published in every veterinary text and medical journal? > even if all the antidotal evidence is wrong, and the scientists who are > failing to do any in-depth study From where did you get the preposterous notion that vitamin-C therapy for the treatment of FeLV has not been studied? Belfield, Pitcairn, et al? Studies go back almost 20 years - If you're interested in holistic medicine, you should research both sides, conventional and holistic therapies, so you'll know hocus-pocus quackery when you see it. into this are right, there is no down side > to vitamin c therapy, There sure is! Again, you should do your own research. and if perchance the thousands of cats on it who are > in good health are right, then what is the harm? What is the harm??? Vitamin C can actually be harmful, because excessive ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as *oxalate.* A high concentration of oxalate in the urine predisposes the cat to the formation of *calcium oxalate uroliths* - which can cause fatal urinary tract obstructions in male cats . Calcium oxalate crystals can also irritate and inflame the bladder wall leading to cystitis in both, females and males. Calcium oxalate uroliths cannot be dissolved in cats and most must be surgically removed. That's the harm. Phil I asked my vet about Interferon and he refused to even consider it since he said it was not proven to work in clinical trials. He said if I wanted to try it, I'd have to get another vet or veternary school to prescribe it. He also said vaccinating the male at this point was not recommended. He repeated his recommendation to separate the two cats for at least a month. After that, if the male tested negative, he could be vaccinated. Like I've mentioned locking the two cats in separate rooms for a month is out of the question as it would cause undo stress on the positive (femal) cat (which would increase the chance of infection) and the negative (male) cat (which wouldn't help if he's already been exposed). Though I'm starting to waver on this since I read that males are 1.7 times more likely to develop the disease as females. Also I'm more attached to the male than the female and don't want to kill him just to give her a better chance of survival. All the other tests (CBC and giardia) came back negative on both cats. At this point the vet recommended getting them both retested for FeLV in 30 days and see what happens. The shelter said they needed permission from the director to submit a IFA test and that the director wouldn't be available until Wednesday. I'm still puzzled as to how she got infected since, according to the shelter, she was tested as negative when she arrived and she only shared her cage with her sibblings. Also all cages, bowls, litter, etc is disinfected daily (according to someone at the shelter) so it seems the only way she could get it was before she was donated. I'm still hoping she gets better and the male stays infection free (though without a vaccine it's only a matter of time). Karen Chuplis wrote: > in article cgasdq$ldn@odah37.prod.google.com, Mike at > morac99-usenet@yahoo.com wrote on 8/22/04 2:33 PM: > > > Here's an update: > > > > 1. The cats have NOT had vacines against FeLV (the shelter did not do > > any and neither did the vet). They only had their mandatory shots > > (distemper, etc). There seems to be some confusion on this. > > > > 2. The shelter ran their own test today (two actually) and both came > > back positive for FeLV on the female and negative on the male. > > > > I did some more reading and it said that 40% of healthy adult cats > > fight off the disease. Unfortunately, young cats don't fair as well, > > especially cats fighting another infection at the time. So the outlook > > doesn't look good for her. At this time he is still negative, but I've > > decided to keep them together as separating them would cause undo > > stress. I just hope I'm not sentencing the male to death in the > > process. > > > > I'll keep the interferon treatment in mind, but I'm not sure I can > > afford to take care of two cats with full blown (or even a mild case) > > of leukemia. The vet gave me some vitamins, but I doubt that will help > > much. > > > > ELISA testing both cats costs around $90 (plus $46 for an examination). > > I have no idea how much the IFA test cost, but if I have to have them > > tested every month, then I definately wouldn't be able to afford to > > keep them. Unfortunately I've already becomes attached to them and > > them to me. > > Mike, it seems to me that I've heard interferon was not that expensive. I > hope you can call around and find a vet that knows about this treatment or > consult a university. You really never know how well kitties can respond. > It's worth a try. Keep us posted. > I asked my vet about Interferon and he refused to even consider it > since he said it was not proven to work in clinical trials. He said if > I wanted to try it, I'd have to get another vet or veternary school to > prescribe it. Wow. That seems incredibly obstinate and over alarmed. I don't think it a very radical idea. Wierd. Do you have a feline specialist in your area you could consult?? See this study http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00243.htm and from http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/FeLV.html A drug that stimulates the immune system, interferon, can be given orally to cats without side effects and may be helpful in many cases. > He also said vaccinating the male at this point was not recommended. > He repeated his recommendation to separate the two cats for at least a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I'm still hoping she gets better and the male stays infection free > (though without a vaccine it's only a matter of time) I don't think that is true. We had a cat that died of feline Leukemia many, many years ago before vaccines. We had five other cats that he lived with for 2 years. He was the only one to ever get the disease. I don't think it is impossible for the one to remain free of infection, especially if you do vaccinate, but that is my opinion only. Karen Karen wrote: > > I asked my vet about Interferon and he refused to even consider it > > since he said it was not proven to work in clinical trials. He said if > > I wanted to try it, I'd have to get another vet or veternary school to > > prescribe it. > > > Wow. That seems incredibly obstinate and over alarmed. I don't think it a > very radical idea. Wierd. Do you have a feline specialist in your area you > could consult?? See this study He said he wouldn't prescribe it because the results of tests are inconclusive at the moment, but said he could refer me to another place that would do so. At this point I'd like to see the results of the IFA test first. > > I'm still hoping she gets better and the male stays infection free > > (though without a vaccine it's only a matter of time) > > I don't think that is true. We had a cat that died of feline Leukemia many, > many years ago before vaccines. We had five other cats that he lived with > for 2 years. He was the only one to ever get the disease. I don't think it > is impossible for the one to remain free of infection, especially if you do > vaccinate, but that is my opinion only. Thanks for the information, but I weighed the options and decided to separate them. It was a cruel decision because they had been together since birth and they are "best buds", but the alternative is even worse. The longer he stays with her, the better the chance that he will become infected and that isn't fair to him. So while my heart says I should keep them together, my head says that isn't the best idea. At this point it's only for a month. I put her (Spunky) in the finished basement and let him (Taffy) roam the rest of the house. Unfortunately since neither cat is used to being alone, they aren't taking the separation all that well. She is taking it worse them he is. She constantly meows, calling out to him and/or me. Also I don't think she likes being locked in one room, even if it is a large one. He is taking it much better and seems to be able to entertain himself when I spend time with her and he doesn't call out all the time. This makes me wonder if I should put him in the basement and let her roam free. I tried this briefly but decided against it since she still meowed and because of her loose stool problem I thought having the litterbox close by would be better for her. I also tried putting up some plastic, so they could see each other, but that resulted in frustration for both cats in that they could see each other, but not play. I also figured that if she became full blown infected I'd have to give her away anyway (or possibly have her destroyed) so it would be better for them to learn to be by themselves. I assume both of them will get used to this at some point. Hopefully soon since this is probably putting extra stress on her. At this point I'm open to suggestions on how to make the separation easier on the two. > Karen wrote: > > > I asked my vet about Interferon and he refused to even consider it [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > At this point I'm open to suggestions on how to make the separation > easier on the two. Well, I just don't know. I really wouldn't do it, but that is my opinion only. Good luck and I hope she does shed the virus so they can be together again. << Well, I just don't know. I really wouldn't do it, but that is my opinion only. Good luck and I hope she does shed the virus so they can be together again. >> I don't think I would either but I can see why he would. It's always a hard decision when you are looking out for the welfare of more than one. Does the one in the basement have much stimulation? Are there any windows she can see out of? Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) I just typed up a large post and had it vanish so I'll try again and hope I don't forget anything. After a day of keeping them apart I decided to put them back together again (which made them happy). Both the cats and I were miserable and I was getting stressed out because I had constantly be with one or the other and had no time for myself (even while I was at work I was thinking about the cats). In the end I think this was the best decision for all 3 of us. I figure the vet recommended separating them because that is the text book recommendation, but the situation in this case is different. These 2 cats have been together their whole lives (around 5 to 6 months). The 2 cats tested negative on July 3rd after they were donated along with their 3 other sibblings (they might not be sibblings, but all 5 kittens were donated at the same time). The shelter says they disinfect all cages, bowls, etc. nightly and that only those 5 were ever in the same cage at the same time. This leads me to believe the virus was gestating in one of them (probably her) at the time they were donated. Because of this I have a gut feeling she got it from her mother. The downside to not separating them is that the vet will not vaccinate him unless he has been isolated for more than 30 days and tests negative. His rational is if the virus is gestating in his body then vaccinating him may actually cause more harm than good. Because I put them together he will never vaccinate him. I figured though that if he's survived having her vomit on him and him licking it off (which happened two weeks ago) and not got infected then he can survive anything. I got 2 kittens so that each kitten could have a playmate and so they wouldn't get lonely while I was away. I know the odds are against me, but I've decided to stick with this original plan, FeLV or not, and hope that despite their immune systems not being fully developed that both of them are strong enough to fight off the disease. Thanks for all your advice. MacCandace wrote: > << Well, I just don't know. I really wouldn't do it, but that is my opinion > only. Good luck and I hope she does shed the virus so they can be together > again. >> > > I don't think I would either but I can see why he would. It's always a hard > decision when you are looking out for the welfare of more than one. Does the > one in the basement have much stimulation? Are there any windows she can see > out of? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) << His rational is if the virus is gestating in his body then vaccinating him may actually cause more harm than good. Because I put them together he will never vaccinate him. >> I don't know...have you researched this yourself or maybe Phil or someone will pop in with advice. Is this true? If it isn't, you can always get another vet who will do what you want. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) It sounds like this thread's OP has turned this whole thing into one giant conspiracy theory. It is entirely possible the vet is wrong and the shelter is right. Most shelters will test for FELV/FIV as soon as they are receieved. This way they can be put up for adoption. I don't think most shelters would outright lie about a cat having FELV/FIV or even mix a cat that has it with a cat that doesn't. My impression of vets have gone a little downhill since it seems plenty of them charge an arm and a leg just to do both the testing and give them shots. I take my cats to the Humane Society clinic (they are pretty good actually) and have them checked out. The prices are certainly alot lower than what a vet normally charges. I even took Icarus there to get tested and he was negative. I also didn't need the FELV/FIV vaccination since he like my other cats are kept indoors. Why worry? Just love the cats and give them a good quality life. > I just typed up a large post and had it vanish so I'll try again and > hope I don't forget anything. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > eye other > > than human." (Loren Eisely) > It sounds like this thread's OP has turned this whole thing into one giant > conspiracy theory. It is entirely possible the vet is wrong and the shelter [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Why worry? Just love the cats and give them a good quality life. The vet ran the same test as the shelter. It is a TEST. It's not anything subjective. They take a few drops of blood and a solution and put it on a cartridge (reminds me of a pregnancy test) and wait for it to develop. No, I don't think the shelter lied. The kitten probably did test negative at the time. If the kitten does have FeLV, it *is* very imporant for the OP to know this so he can manage her health properly. My personal opinion is that one should have a regular vet who knows your cats and for the cats to have a record of their health. This way, the vet can monitor for trends over time, such as gaining or losing weight. Also, you have some where to go in an emergency. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net www.kelltek.com Check out www.snittens.com > I just typed up a large post and had it vanish so I'll try again and > hope I don't forget anything. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks for all your advice. You know, you have an advantage knowing of her infection. The key with this disease no matter what is getting prompt treatment any time something crops up. Treating sympotomatically. You will never sit on your hands if someone is off color. I hope you can continue to try and boost her immune system in some way. Please keep us updated. I feel for you, but no matter if they are with us months, or years, or days, a family is a family. |
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