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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2004WBC count question
Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can an infection cause such a high count, or is this likely leukemia? That is the only abnormal test. Physically, she has constant diarrhea and has since I got her about 3 months ago. > Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can > an infection cause such a high count, and/or inflamation. > or is this likely leukemia? Possible but not probable. That > is the only abnormal test. Physically, she has constant diarrhea and > has since I got her about 3 months ago. Have you had your cat checked for worms and other parasites? Phil >> Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can >> an infection cause such a high count, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Phil Yes, O&P was the first test she had after I brought her home. They couldn't get much blood from her then because she went nuts. That was three months ago. The quick history is that I saw her in a local pet store in a fairly large cage with eight other cats. She was so scrawny and sad looking that I took her home figuring that she could have a decent last year since I figured she was going to die if she was left there. She is 12 or 13 and weighed 5 lbs even though she ate everything they gave her. She has the saddest eyes that I've ever seen. We guessed maybe thyroid or diabetes or IBD. The first two are pretty much ruled out by the normal chemistry results. She didn't have diarrhea when I got her but then she went on antibiotics and it started and never stopped. She was on antibiotics for several weeks because her mouth is a mess and she has sores down her throat. At the same time I started really giving her food because she had to gain weight. So it isn't clear just what is causing the diarrhea. It's possible that it is a combination of things and that all the food she is eating is overwhelming her system. Anyway, the only real symptoms are the diarrhea and high WBC, plus her evident distress when chewing. I still haven't managed to get a good look at her mouth. She does not like people playing around with it. I am reassured that you think it unlikely that she has Leukemia because that would not be good. It is very possible that all of her problems stem from terrible tooth/gum conditions. The current plan of attack is to wait another week while she is on Clava (.. whatever antibiotic) and prednisone and try to get her weight up a bit more. Then I'm going to take her to the Long Island Veterinary Specialists (http://www.livs.org), the local pros, and get their diagnosis and hopefully they feel that she would have a decent chance of surviving anesthesia. My local vet does not feel confident in doing it at this point although he was very encouraged by her putting on a pound (now tipping the scales at 6) since I got her. He thinks that taking her to LIVS would be a very good idea. There are a few pictures of her at http://sonicechoes.gotdns.org/catshots > >> Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can > >> an infection cause such a high count, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > There are a few pictures of her at > http://sonicechoes.gotdns.org/catshots What is the differential on the WBC? FeLeuk works opposite than leukemia in people -- cats' WBC crashes and they also begin throwing out nucleated RBC's because the system is overwhelmed and tries to make up new RBC's faster than they can mature. The high WBC and sores indicate an infection. The danger here is sepsis -- which can cause the WBC's to crash. LT >> >> Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can >> >> an infection cause such a high count, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > >LT I'll find out about the diff. > >> Jackie Cat has a WBC count of 51,000 and normal is up to 16,000. Can > >> an infection cause such a high count, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > couldn't get much blood from her then because she went nuts. That was > three months ago. Fear, stress, excitement and difficulty drawing a blood sample can raise the WBC count >20K (physiologic leukocytosis). > The quick history is that I saw her in a local pet store in a fairly > large cage with eight other cats. She was so scrawny and sad looking [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > diarrhea when I got her but then she went on antibiotics and it > started and never stopped. One of the side effects of some anitibiotics - especially Amoxicillin - is diarrhea. She was on antibiotics for several weeks > because her mouth is a mess and she has sores down her throat. My guess is her high WBC is probably due to a combination of stress, fear, and struggling during the blood draw and an oral/dental infection and the inflammation caused by infection. She may need to be sedated for your vet to give her a thorough oral exam. Its very important to treat oral/dental diseases as soon as possible, not only to stop the pain but also because the gums are highly vascularized and contain a huge blood supply. All the bacteria involved in dental/oral infections can easily enter the blood stream and spread to other organs - including the heart, lungs and kidneys. So don't wait too long to get it taken care of. > There are a few pictures of her at > http://sonicechoes.gotdns.org/catshots She looks like a real sweetie. (Nice enclosure for your cats) Good luck. Phil >> Yes, O&P was the first test she had after I brought her home. They >> couldn't get much blood from her then because she went nuts. That was >> three months ago. > >Fear, stress, excitement and difficulty drawing a blood sample can raise the >WBC count >20K (physiologic leukocytosis). I wasn't too clear on that. The first blood drawing got them only enough blood for the thyroid because she went so nuts. The vet figured that there was no point in trying to get more and that her state would interfere with accurate results. He suggested that I bring her back after I had had her for at least a month and had calmed down. So after being on antibiotics (amoxicillin) for a month I took her back and that is when we did the big tests. She was a perfect angel when they took blood that time. Everything was normal except for the 40,000+ WBC. Another month later, after more amoxicillin mixed with prednisone, the WBC was up to 51,000. But she had gained a pound. Yesterday and today she has had her tongue hanging part way out of her mouth. I just checked with the vets office because I was concerned that she might be feverish but apparently there is no correlation between tongue and fever. Her next appointment is Tuesday so we'll get some more information and prepare her for the next step, which is dental work. The tongue is indicative of a mouth problem but that we already know about. >Yesterday and today she has had her >tongue hanging part way out of her mouth. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >some more information and prepare her >for the next step, which is dental work. This is indicative of a cat that is suffering from a *great* deal of pain. My neighbor's cat exhibited this same exact thing and ended up at the vet having emergency mouth surgery because it was so bad. You need to get her teeth out *now* and stop waiting! You also should have had her on pain meds and if you are going to make her suffer though the weekend at the very least get something for her from the vet today. I am horrified that this vet would allow this cat to go on for *months* with teeth as bad as you've described. I realize she was in poor shape to begin with, but the mouth problems are obviously so serious that the risk of anesthesia is much less than leaving things as is and making her be in constant pain. I just went through this with my cat Omar, who had a very serious heart condition, but also had two teeth that were bad. I was afraid of putting him under, but more afraid of what would happen if the teeth caused infection, which can directly affect other organs, so I made the appointment for a dental and discussed anesthesia in advance (we agreed to do only gas with no induction agent.) Unfortunately, the night before the appointment, Omar threw a clot which went into his lungs and killed him. He died in my car on the way to the emergency clinic. Despite the tragedy, if faced with this situation again, I would still do a dental. Leaving a cat in pain and at risk for serious infection is not something I will allow or would inflict on a cat. Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >>Yesterday and today she has had her >>tongue hanging part way out of her mouth. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >risk of anesthesia is much less than leaving things as is and making her >be in constant pain. The vet did not think that she would survive the anesthesia or he would have done it. That is our little catch-22. She can't have her teeth taken care of until she is in better shape. I will be talking to them again on Monday since there isn't much I can do about it today. I know that I cannot give her asprin. Today there is no tongue hanging out and she seems pretty much ok. But you are right, she must be in pain. It will be taken care of ASAP though I do not want to have her put under if she won't wake up again. > The vet did not think that she would > survive the anesthesia or he would have > done it. That is our little catch-22. > She can't have her teeth taken care of > until she is in better shape. That was *months* ago. Jackie has gained a pound and *is* in better shape, but, until you get her mouth taken care of, isn't going to do much better. There is clear evidence of this with her rising WBC, despite being on antibiotics. It is not fair, humane or right to continue to force her to live with the mouth sores and what must be excruciating mouth pain. You are also putting her organs at serious risk, which in turn may make the anesthesia riskier. You have to act on this now. Not next week, or next month. > I will be talking to them again on > Monday since there isn't much I can do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > much ok. But you are right, she must be > in pain. From everything you've described it's likely severe, and the mouths sore just add to the misery poor Jackie must be feeling. You cannot allow her to have to suffer like this any longer. >It will be taken care of ASAP > though I do not want to have her put > under if she won't wake up again. This isn't about "you" or what "you" want. This is about what the right thing to do for *Jackie* is. You have an absolute obligation to free this cat from severe pain. Sometimes that means taking risks and knowing that the cat might not wake up. Do you honestly believe it is fair to Jackie to keep her in constant pain so you don't have to worry about if she'll wake up? Have you ever had tooth problems? Do you know how excruciatingly painful they can be? Would *you* want to live with that kind of pain for *months*? Of course not, and Jackie has suffered long enough. As I told you months ago, based on my own experience and that of vets I've spoken with, putting Jackie under using only gas anesthesia is a very safe way to go, and right now you have a small window of opportunity to make things better. For Jackie's sake, take it. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >> Yes, O&P was the first test she had after I brought her home. They > >> couldn't get much blood from her then because she went nuts. That was [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > The tongue is indicative of a mouth problem but that we already know > about. I think you really need to have her teeth taken care of. ASAP. While the vet's doing her teeth, she'll be able to get a close look at the back of her throat/mouth, where the sores are. Cathy > Yesterday and today she has had her tongue hanging part way out of her > mouth. I just checked with the vets office because I was concerned > that she might be feverish but apparently there is no correlation > between tongue and fever. ..but there sure as hell is a correlation between the tongue hanging out and oral *pain*! Take your cat to another vet *immediately* - The one you have is an idiot or incompetent or probably both. If you're worried about anesthetic risks, use a vet whose experienced with the inhalation anesthetic isoflurane, and a rapid acting/rapid recovery, non-barbiturate, non-cumulative induction agent such as Propofol. Its more expensive but well worth it. Get your cat to a`vet *now*. Phil > If you're worried about anesthetic risks, use a vet whose experienced with > the inhalation anesthetic isoflurane, and a rapid acting/rapid recovery, > non-barbiturate, non-cumulative induction agent such as Propofol. Its more > expensive but well worth it. I think they should phase out sh.t like Ket-Val and it should be replaced with Propofol universally. Vets shouldn't be allowed to use ket-val if propofol is available. I've seen the difference between these inducers upon recovery and I will never allow my cats to go under ket val ever again. > > If you're worried about anesthetic risks, use a vet whose experienced with > > the inhalation anesthetic isoflurane, and a rapid acting/rapid recovery, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > propofol is available. I've seen the difference between these inducers upon > recovery and I will never allow my cats to go under ket val ever again. Cats are and playing 5 minutes after the Iso is turned off! Most vets won't spring for Propofol because its expensive - plus it contains no preservatives so once the vial is opened the unused portion must be thrown away - that triples the already triple cost. A good second choice is thiopental. I hate ketamine! Cats recovering from the dissociative state that ketamine produces is very disturbing to witness. Some cats even develop temporary amnesia that some people say their cats never completely recover from. The cataleptic state they're in while they're under is even more unpleasant to see. Plus their eyes must be protected and lubricated because they remain open. Ketamine also tends increase the heart rate and cardiac output, and even arterial blood pressure. An older cat's heart may not be able to handle the increased oxygen consumption and demand that's needed when tachycardia develops - the tachycardia can even precipitate acute myocardial failure. Most vets use it because its cheap - and probably because it was the anesthetic agent that was taught in vet school. Ketamine is real nasty stuff. Phil >> > If you're worried about anesthetic risks, use a vet whose experienced >with [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Phil It's going to be ok. Jackie is going to a pro. >> Yesterday and today she has had her tongue hanging part way out of her >> mouth. I just checked with the vets office because I was concerned [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Phil I am awaiting a return call from the vet. I called the pros (Long Island Vet Specialists) and they don't do dental work! I was really stunned but that is the story. I will discuss the use of isoflurane and propofol. We have an appointment for tomorrow morning. I tend to like this vet; one of three in the practice. He was right on virtually everything so far with Jackie. She is gaining weight, she is becoming much more active, and she looks much better. I'll let everyone know how things are going. Good luck - I hope a relatively safe dnetal can be done on her, soon, so that she can feel better & continue to progress! Cathy > >> Yesterday and today she has had her tongue hanging part way out of her > >> mouth. I just checked with the vets office because I was concerned [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > becoming much more active, and she looks much better. I'll let > everyone know how things are going. Ok, here's the latest news. My vet wants another look at her tomorrow morning and he has referred me to a different 24 hour specialty lab (why are the all so far away?) where I have set up an appointment for Wed morning. Jackie is not to be fed after midnight Tuesday. That means the boys won't have food either. The dry food is probably ok to leave out since Jackie doesn't seem to like it (too tough to chew most likely) but I'll put it away to be on the safe side. Check this place out! You can have a private room to stay with your pet overnight if necessary: http://www.vetspecialist.com/newsite Somehow I do not think that I will be sleeping over. Quite a list of attending physicians. > Ok, here's the latest news. My vet wants another look at her tomorrow > morning and he has referred me to a different 24 hour specialty lab > (why are the all so far away?) where I have set up an appointment for > Wed morning. Good!! :-) (The closest vet specialists to me are 1 1/4 hrs. away - a team of an internist/oncologist & a vet board certified in feline medicine, and 2 hours away - a practice that specializes in difficult surgeries, and Cornell.) Cathy Jackie is not to be fed after midnight Tuesday. That > means the boys won't have food either. The dry food is probably ok to > leave out since Jackie doesn't seem to like it (too tough to chew most [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Quite a list of attending physicians. |
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